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From YouTube: Fireside Chat: Figment and Agoric on Accelerating DeFi
Description
Agoric's Dean Tribble (CEO) and Rowland Graus (Product Lead) met with Gavin Birch and Clayton Menzel of Figment Networks to discuss Agoric's fast, familiar, and secure smart contract platform for DeFi.
At Agoric we believe that current DeFi systems are limited in their functionality. Poor performance, developer experience, and economic design hinder the ultimate growth of the burgeoning blockchain ecosystem.
Join us as we discuss how we're working on those critical issues!
B
We're
live
now,
yeah
we're
live,
hey
everyone
thanks
for
joining
us
yeah.
Today's
a
really
big
day,
we're
pretty
excited
the
cosmos
hub4,
the
stargate,
the
stargate
mainnet
just
launched
and
there's
a
there's,
a
lot
of
excitement,
we're
making
blocks
and-
and
this
is
the
whitepaper
has
been
delivered.
So
that's
really
exciting
and,
and
even
more
so
you
know,
we've
got
dean
and
roland
here
from
igorik
and
you
guys
were
a
big
part
of
making
it
more
than
just
what
the
white
paper
had
promised.
I
think
right.
A
C
Yeah
yeah,
definitely
I
so
yes,
I
like
this
is
the
big
day.
You
know
the
white
paper
has
been
delivered,
but
this
conversation
is
mostly
about
gorick
and
about
how
a
gorick
is
planning
to
be
the
the
smart
contract
platform
to
accelerate
d5,
and
I
know
dean.
You
and
I
believe,
mark
have
been
in
this
space
for
a
super
long
time
longer
than
I've
been
alive.
A
So
we
are
doing
a
you
know:
cosmos
sdk,
tendermint,
based
layer,
one
chain
coming
out
later
this
year
for
doing
smart
contracts
accessible
to
a
lot
more
programmers,
accessible,
implementable
in
a
secure
version
of
javascript,
so
that
that
you
know
the
millions
of
programmers
out
there.
That
would
do
smart
contracts
if
only
they
could
are
now
able
to
do
so.
I
worked
on
the
first
production,
smart
contract
back
in
1989.,
so
this
is
before
blockchain
and
for
us
you
know
so.
A
Smart
contracts
are
really
about
software
enforcing
the
terms
of
a
contract-like
arrangement
between
third
parties,
and
so
it
predates
blockchain
by
a
lot.
You
know
they're
there
and
and-
and
there
are
lots
of
examples
in
the
world
from
before
blockchain,
so
ebay,
paypal,
venmo.
You
know
airbnb
much
of
the
negotiation.
Uber
lyft,
a
bunch
of
amazon,
high
frequency
trading.
A
lot
of
those
no
human
was
involved
in
two
third
parties,
collaborating
or
or
or
cooperating
in
some
way.
Even
though
often
they
have.
A
No,
they
don't
know
each
other,
they'll
never
meet
each
other,
they
might
not
even
like
each
other
and
yet
they
successfully
cooperate
and
then
blockchain
brings
integrity
to
the
platform.
The
problem
with
smart
contracts,
pre-blockchain,
is
there's
there'd,
be
someone
running
a
trusted
third
party
in
the
middle,
so
you
know
they're
standing
there,
whether
it's
airbnb
or
stubhub,
or
whoever
ready
to
scrape
off
35
of
the
profits
in
order
for
two
people
that
have
otherwise
nothing
to
do
with
them
to
actually
be
able
to
cooperate,
and
that
means
they're.
A
The
they're
controlling
the
entire
arrangement
they're
a
lot
they're
enabling
what
features
you
can
do
there
they've
got
control
of
custody
all
those
kinds
of
things.
What
blockchain
brings
my
gold
standard
for
blockchain
is
multiple
machines,
validators
in
different
jurisdictions
and
different
administrative
domains.
You
know
voting
to
agree
on
facts.
How
much
was
mine?
How
much
money
is
in
my
account
choices.
Did
I
cancel
my
order
before
you
shipped
it?
Or
did
you
ship
it
before?
A
I
canceled
my
order
and
those
have
to
happen
in
an
order,
or
you
know,
in
some
sequence
and
all
of
these
hundreds
of
machines
across
the
across
the
globe,
decide
and
agree
on
whether
my
cancel
happened
first
or
whether
the
shipping
happened
first
and
then.
Finally,
the
result
of
computation
right,
you
know,
did
the
right
amount
of
fees
or
taxes
or
whatever
get
taken
out
and
get
sent
to
the
right
amount
to
the
right
parties
and
go
ahead.
B
Oh,
I
was
gonna
say
so
we
have
a,
we
have
a
marketplace,
that's
that's
controlled
or
enforced
algorithmically
and
if
there
needs
to
be
any
sort
of
intervention
that
comes
from
you
know,
distributed
set
of
parties
that
are
disinterested,
at
least
in
the
specific
arrangement
they're
more
interested
in
preserving
the
whole
of
the
market.
I
guess
in
this
case,
yes,.
A
Exactly
exactly
and
also
importantly,
it's
permissionless,
you
know,
that's
pretty
crucial
to
actually
be,
you
know,
be
a
big
part
of
what
makes
it
so
you
can
remove.
The
trusted
third
party
in
the
middle
is
that
the
system
is
permissionless.
The
system
is,
is
disinterested
in
your
particulars,
as
you
say
right,
you
know
that
that
their
incentive
is
to
make
sure
things
operate
correctly,
so
that
you
can
make
arrangements
with
with
people.
A
B
So
so
we've
we've
seen
like
historically
like
this
kind
of
build
it
and
they'll
come
narrative
and
we've
seen
a
bit
of
it
around
ethereum,
where
you
know
they
built
this
kind
of
really
rough
thing
and
then
all
of
a
sudden
there's
this
this
explosion
of
development
and
so
others
step.
Let's
say:
oh
you
know
we
can.
We
can
do
it
better
than
this
right,
but
then
they
build
stuff,
and
now
it
seems
like
most
of
what
they're
building.
B
A
You
may
be
surprised
to
know
that
I
know
some
libertarians
and
there
was
always
this.
You
know
there.
There
was
you
know,
a
naive
sense
of
you
know,
build
it
and
they
will
come
right.
You
know
the
marketplace
will
provide
any
number
of
these
things
and
my
response
to
the
market
will
provide
is
no.
No,
no,
the
market
is
a
place
where
you
can
provide
right.
A
You
know,
innovation
happens,
it's
not
that
the
market
does
anything
for
me
what
the
market
enables
is
for
third
parties
to
permissionlessly
come
in
and
do
something
for
me.
You
know
that
I
find
valuable
and,
and
and
and
so
we
are-
we
are
both
building
a
place
where
people
can
permissively
permissionlessly
come
in
and
do
their
thing,
but
we're
also
doing
some
things
there
that
are
actually
interesting
and
valuable
to
people
right.
They're,.
B
A
Right
yeah,
we
originally
were
expecting
to
just
do
a
platform.
This
is
when
we
were
first
getting
into
it
and
we
knew
that
solving
security
was
hard
making
it.
So
you
could
do
plugable
development
and
build
on
each
other's
work
is
hard,
but
but
we
were
you
know
into
doing
that
and
thinking
about.
How
does
all
this
happen
when
we
realized
that
no
no
ethereum
is
working
right
now,
because
it
is
a
place
that
multiple
people
go
right.
A
You
know
if,
if
you
had
staking
derivatives
magically
inside
of
cosmos
hub,
it
would
do
you
very
little
good
well
before
yesterday.
It
would
do
you
very
little
good,
because
now
you've
got
this
thing
and
nobody,
you
know,
and
you
can't
sell
it
to
anyone
or
you've,
got
this
thing
and
you
can't
make
something
that
wraps
it
up
or
buy
insurance
about
it
or
or
use
it
to
power
a
loan
in
some
other
service.
You
need
an
ecosystem
of
multiple
businesses,
cooperating
in
order
for
any
of
those
businesses
to
take
off.
A
A
With
ibc
launch
now,
suddenly
you
know
I
was
thinking
about
this.
The
other
day
when
I
was
when
I
was
getting
ready
for
this,
and
I
was
getting
ready
for
the
talk
last
night
that
suddenly
we
go
from
all
these
little
islands
of
blockchain
right
to
you
know
not
just
a
little
bit
of
connection
because
the
hub
always
talked
about
you
know
we
could
connect
to
your
zone
and
everyone
would
think
about
it
of
okay,
so
my
zone
could
connect
to
the
hub.
What
do
I
do
with
that?
Okay
there's
assets
over
there?
A
Maybe
that's
interesting,
but
no!
No!
No!
It's
with
ibc
forget
the
hub.
Now
any
chain
could
connect
to
any
chain
you
know,
and-
and
that
means
that
two
chains
that
I
have
no
idea
about-
could
end
up
being
the
center
of
some
very
important
universe
to
people
that
I've
never
met
right
and
the
hub
means
that
now
it's
easy
for
chains
to
connect
to
each
other.
You
know
in
the
star
pattern
and
there's
lots
of
reasons
for
that.
But
the
nice
thing
is,
I
don't
need
their
permission.
You
know
I
can
connect
to
sommelier.
A
B
A
But
you
know:
ibc
is
layered,
that's
sort
of
great
now
tcp
works,
but
there's
a
protocol
above
that,
and
they
also
need
to
deploy
code
on
either
side
to
talk
that
protocol.
So
everyone
gets
transfer
for
free.
We
included
that
application
protocol
in
the
shipping
ibc
1.0,
but
that's
that's
just
you
know
the
baby,
lowest
simplest
possible.
A
Important
thing
you
could
do
with
ibc.
If
you
want
to
move,
you
know
proof
of
location
or
you
know
proof
of
credentials
or
some
meeting
arrangement
or
secret
keys
for
doing
for
for
doing
private
messaging.
That's
a
new
protocol.
You
deployed
on
one
side
and
now
it's
your
brand
new
protocol
and
there's
nobody
talking
to
it
so
dibc,
dynamic
ibc
was
just
the
realization
that
if
we
wanted
the
rapid
innovation,
you
know
the
the
big
thing
that
loose
coupling
does
is.
A
It
means
two
parties
can
make
any
arrangement
they
want
and
they're
good.
We
don't
need
a
global
agreement
on
a
protocol
after
that
low
level.
You
know
after
the
low
level
ibc
and
that's
hugely
important
for
unleashing
innovation,
but
it's
even
better.
If
you
don't
need
to
agree
with
anyone,
if
you
can
just
I'm
going
to
build
my
thing,
I'm
going
to
build
the
counterparty
contract
that
can
run
on
your
chain
and
now
all
you
need
to
decide
is
yes
I'll.
Take
it.
You
don't
have
to
implement
a
bunch
of
logic.
A
You
know
there
and-
and
it's
even
better
if
a
few
people
on
your
chain
can
say
yes
I'll,
take
it
right,
and
it's
not
that
everyone
has
to
agree.
You
don't
need
a
governance
vote.
You
don't
need
to
wait
two
months
to
turn
it
on
it's
just.
I
want
some
of
that
I'll
go
ahead
and
you
know
you
know,
get
it
deployed
onto
my
chain.
So
I
can
talk
that
proof
of
location
protocol
and
then
two
applications
on
on
the
agora
chain
can
do
proof
of
location
and
the
other
guys
haven't
opted
in.
That's
fine.
B
So
this
is
what
scared
me
about
like
as
a
as
a
cosmos
hub
stakeholder.
This
is
kind
of
what
scared
me
in
the
early
days
was.
I
realized,
I'm
not
really
this.
This
was
this.
Wasn't
this
isn't
too
many
months
ago
that
I
was,
I
was
kind
of
like
well.
Why
would
anybody?
Why
would
anyone
connect
to
the
hub
to
for
what
the
reason
that
the
hub
exists
for
as
a
means
of
of
moving
value
and
data
throughout
the
cosmos
ecosystem?
B
That's
what
the
hub's
vying
to
be
there's
no,
as
far
as
we
know,
there's
really
no
other
purpose
for
the
for
the
hub
and
it
doesn't
need
to
exist
for
the
ecosystem
to
exist.
Well,
obviously,
that
oh
igorik's
ready
to
do
this
with,
like
you
have
to.
If
the
hub
was
going
to
do
this,
there
would
have
to
be
a
governance
proposal
for
every
single
and
a
software
upgrade
for
every
single
time.
B
A
Yes,
well
so
our
code
won't
be
won't,
be
running
on
the
hub,
but
obviously
so
one
of
the
things
that
is
true
about
innovation
is
you
want
fast
movers
and
slow
movers
right,
you're,
they're
sort
of
so
the
slow
movement
provides
you
some
framework
on
which
you're
building
the
fast
movement,
scaffolding
right
yeah,
and
there
are
limits
to
how
slow
you
want
right
to
me.
It's
sort
of
mind-boggling,
the
erc
720,
you
know-
or
you
know
sorry
erc
20
took
as
long
as
it
took
to
emerge
on
on
ethereum.
The
drc.
A
721
is
still
yeah,
maybe
kind
of
you
know.
Those
are
huge
enablers
of
a
framework
that
are
yeah.
You
know
no
system
they're
like
a
few
methods,
and
we
just
need
to
agree
on
it,
but
a
few
methods,
and
we
just
need
to
agree
on
it-
is
also
a
little
too
fast,
the
erc20
world's
a
little
too
slow.
What
you
want
is
something
that
that
can
move
with
with
all
deliberate
speed,
but
but
but
but
not
a
little
too
chaotic.
A
So
it
is
actually
probably
going
to
be
good
that
the
hub
that
that
the
hub
will
be
the
an
anchor
point,
partly
because
it
has
some
inertia
and
movement.
You
can
do
an
astonishing
amount
with
just
transfer
provided
by
the
hub,
not
because
the
hub
is
providing
key
services,
but
but
it's
providing
a
stable
place
for
me
to
go
to
to
connect
to
to
connect
to
some
other
zone,
and
you
know
when
we
were
thinking
about.
I've
got
my
zone
and
I
can
connect
to
the
hub.
A
That's
sort
of
not
very
interesting
when
I
think
about
I've
got
my
zone
and
I
can
connect
to
all
the
services
that
connect
to
the
hub.
You
know
now,
suddenly
that's
an
explosion
of
opportunity
there
that
that
I
sort
of
get
some
arms
length
buffering
by
you
know,
by
by
the
five
billion
dollars
of
momentum
in
the
hub
right.
Maybe.
A
Not
paying
rent
to
do
I
mean
I'll
pay,
some
fees,
okay,
but
there
should
be
we
we.
We
all
expect
that
the
fees
will
be
important
but
marginal
from
the
point
of
view
of
the
value
delivered
and
then
with
gravity.
You
know
you
know,
gravity
and-
and
you
know,
and
the
fact
that
we
don't
actually
need
gravity
right.
You
know
so
so
gravity
provides
this
bridge
to
ethereum.
A
That
would
provide
you
know
where
their
audience
was
an
audience
that
was
available
over
the
over
ibc
or
via
one
of
the
multiple
paths
to
the
ethereum
audience
was
just
enormous.
I
mean
that's
sort
of
suddenly
wow
there's
a
real
pent-up
demand
for
this
connectivity,
and-
and
so
you
know,
we
get
to
launch
in
this
world
of
services
and
and
back
to
that
thing
about
a
place
to
deploy.
A
So
now
we
don't
have
to
start
out
as
a
place
that
has
a
lot
of
capital,
though
that's
not
that'll
be
nice
to
have
a
bunch
of
liquidity.
You
know
it's
demonstrated
that
it's
now
straightforward
to
pull
some
of
that,
that
that
that
that
capital
over
from
the
existing
legacy
place,
which
is
ethereum
right,
you
know
and
pull
that
capital
over
move
it
over
to
new
economies
on
ibc
or
new
applications
on
ibc.
A
In
order
to
have
them
not
be
an
island
but
exist
connected
to
to
to
you
know,
I
would
say
the
mainland,
but
still
all
you
know
we're
all
still
all
you
know,
d5
as
exciting
as
it
is,
is
still
relatively
small
compared
to
the
to
the
rest
of
the
economy,
so
connect
to
the
rest
of
that
world,
and
now
we've
got.
You
know
these
shared
pools
of
of
collateral
that
we
can
tap
into
these
shares
pools
of
capital.
B
So
it
so
when
I
think
of
what
the
hub,
what
the
hub
does
or
sorry
when
I
think
of
the
cosmos
sdk
like
when
you
when
you
think
okay,
so
when
we
have
cava
when
we
have
terra,
we
have
all
these
like.
We
call
them
like
cosmos-based
networks,
they
all
operate
off
of
they,
or
at
least
they
originate
with
the
cosmos
sdk.
It's
kind
of
this
way
to
like
easily
launch
a
new
chain
with
an
application
specific
chain
or
whatever
you
can
you
can.
B
You
can
use
this
as
sdk
as
a
means
of
it's
almost
they're,
like
copies
of
the
cosmos
sub,
but
they've
been
modified
to
work,
for
whatever
specific
application
means
that
they
don't
have
to
start
from
scratch
to
to
have
like
a
consensus
layer
and
all
these
other
things
that
are
really
kind
of
dangerous
to
tinker
with.
We've
got
this
like
battle
tested
way
of
having
of
having
of
running
a
new
network
and,
and
then
we
also
have
this
promise
now
of
being
able
to
connect
them
all
together.
B
So
when
I,
but
now
when
I
think
of
agorik,
I
think
of
it
as
being
like
another
layer
of
being
like
now,
maybe
I
don't
want
to
launch
a
new
chain
and
gather
up
a
whole
bunch
of
validators.
I
just
want
to
launch
my
apple,
my
deep,
my
hot
new
defy
application
right
out
of
the
box
and
and
fast
and
securely.
You
know
we
see
all
this
rapid
iteration
on
ethereum,
but
it's
it's
not
even
a
matter
of
if,
but
when
these
these
contracts
get
drained.
B
It's
always
this
kind
of
like
a
game
of
musical
chairs
where,
where
everybody's
seeking
this
like
this
yield
right
to
get
like
to
get
in,
there
quickly
get
a
whole
bunch
of
money
and
get
the
hell
out
before
you
lose
all
your
money.
But
what
I'm
seeing
with
with
with
igorik
is
you
know
the
next
hot
new
thing
could
just
be
launched
the
way
that
a
new,
a
new
cosmos-based
network
is
launched,
except
you
know
as
a
as
as
an
app
on
it,
isn't
it
so.
D
I
think
that's
well
put,
and
you
know,
if
you're
a
developer,
deciding
where
to
build.
As
you
say,
a
lot,
a
lot
of
people
building
an
application
aren't
going
to
want
to
deal
with
validators
aren't
going
to
want
to
have
to
spin
up
their
own
blockchain,
and
so
we
want
to
provide
a
place
where
you
can
benefit
from
the
security
of
our
platform
and
also
of
tendermint
and
and
knowing
that
that
is
going
to
function.
A
Yeah,
the
other
thing
that
I
think
is
is
important.
So
you
know
one
of
the
characterizations
we
make
about
building
smart
contracts
in
in
our
model.
Is
you
know
in
ethereum,
in
these
other
systems,
you're
pretty
much
sort
of
you're
you're,
almost
starting
from
scratch?
You
know
every
every
application
is
its
new
little
little
silo
right
now,.
A
Right,
you
can
start
a
chain
not
from
scratch,
because
you've
got
a
bunch
of
the
building
blocks,
but
they
aren't
about
your
application
yeah
in
in
our
model
of
the
world
and
and
the
way
that
systems
that
have
exponential
growth
of
developers
have
succeeded.
You
know
ruby
on
rails,
npm,
react.js
vue.js.
All
these
things
is,
I
get
to
use
components
that
were
built
by
other
people
to
build
my
application
and
more
than
that,
I
get
to
deploy
into
an
environment
that
I
can
connect
to
those
services,
and
so
it's
not
just
that.
A
I
can
you
know
so.
There's
definitely
folks
where
I'm
going
to
build
my
application
and
I
don't
need
anything
novel
in
the
consensus.
So
why
am
I
standing
up
another
zone?
I
might
as
well
run
on
an
existing
zone.
That's
already
got
that
solved
because
I
just
don't
need
it
right.
You
know
for
for
my
for
my
I'm
selling
magic
axes,
there's
nothing!
You
know
that
needs
a
new
staking
token.
For
that.
A
I
just
need
to
be
able
to
take
money
and
deliver
you
an
nft
right,
but
then
there's
the
ones
where,
where
you
know
like
like
a
couple
of
applica
an
example
of
sommelier
is,
is
adding
stop-loss
transactions
for
liquidity
in
in
in
amms
on
on
ethereum
right
in
the
gork
amm.
Well,
okay,
you
know,
oracles
are
a
plug-in
piece
that
I
don't
have
to
implement
right.
You
know,
threshold,
you
know,
logic
is
a
plug-in
piece.
I
don't
have
to
implement
so
a
few
lines
of
javascript
code.
A
B
A
They
talk
about
legos,
but
but
there
the
idea
is
they
realized.
I
can
write
a
transaction
that
talks
to
multiple
businesses
in
the
same
transaction-
that's
great,
but
that's,
but
but
the
only
way
they've
got
of
actually
sharing
work
and
building
on
each
other's
work
is
copying
the
source
code
and
munching
it
in,
and
you
know,
and
they've
had
as
many
losses
as
they've
had
successes.
The
successes
are
huge
right:
uni
incorporated
the
compound
governance,
contract
or
uniswap
into
producing
uni
and
that
that
that
got
huge
traction.
A
But
you
know
dforce
did
the
same
thing
and
they
lost
25
million
dollars.
So
you
know,
do
you
feel
lucky?
You
know
right,
and
so
that's
one
where
I
want
not
on
a
vault
mechanism
that
I'm
that
I'm
going
to
copy
code
out
of
or
a
loan
mechanism
that
I'm
going
to
copy
code
out
of
what
I
want
is
to
grab
the
plug-in
governance
module
that
they
used.
Npm
install
you
know:
contract
governance,
two-thirds
right
and
now
I've
got
this
mechanism
and
I
parameterize
it
with
here's.
A
My
token
that
you're
gonna
use
for
governance-
and
I
plug
it
in
and
say,
here's
the
you
know,
governable
parameters
go
right,
and
now
I
didn't,
I
didn't
have
to
be
an
expert
at
voting.
I
didn't
have
to
worry
about.
You
know
I
just
have
to
provide
some
parameters
in
order
to
say
how
I
wanted
to
use
that
component.
It's
already
been
battled
tested,
it's
been
security,
reviewed
all
those
kinds
of
things
and
my
new
application
that
needs
governance
and
would
like
to
use
some
professional
governance
guidance
can
do
so
right.
B
So
I
see
this
is
like
to
a
two-sided
market.
Like
I
see
from
the
from
the
developer
point
of
view
like
I've
got
some
great
idea
for
an
app
and
but
I
would
never
do
it
because
it's
just
such
a
it's
there
be
monsters
like
I
I
I
have
some
semblance
of
responsibility
and-
and
so
I
think,
to
myself
yeah
this
would
be
super
cool
and
yeah
like
everyone
would
be
into
it,
but
like
I'm,
not
gonna
so-called
experiment
in
production.
So
I'm
just
not
I'm
just
not
gonna.
B
Do
it
because
I
you
know,
and
then
I've
got
users
as
a
defy
user.
I'm
not
a
very
active
user
might
like
the
main
reason.
I'm
not
an
active
user
is
because
I'm
a
busy
guy
I've
got
a
lot
of
things
to
pay
attention
to,
and
I
and
and
they're
only
so.
My
mental
shortcuts
will
only
take
me
so
far.
So
I'm
like
did
trail
of
bits.
B
Audit
this,
or
did
some
like
unknown
little
guy
audit,
this
smart
contract
and
how
much
money
am
I
actually
willing
to
lose
to
to
make
you
know
10,
annualized
or
something
right
so
like
it
means
I
just
the
end
result
is
that
I
don't
use
a
lot
of
new,
especially
new
d5
products
right
and
I'm
missing
out.
I
really
want
to
take
advantage
of
those
things,
but
what
so?
B
I
want
to
get
that
market
having
the
guarantees
that
come
with
with
having
having
the
components
already
built
out
of
the
box,
I'm
just
going
to
piece
them
together
in
whatever
novel
combination,
exactly
give
it
a
name,
some
fruit
or
something
or
food
and
launch
it,
and
people
are
gonna
flock
to
it
and
because
they're
gonna
they're
not
gonna,
have
to.
Oh,
I
don't
know
they're
gonna,
say
oh
they're,
using
agora
components.
B
You
know,
we
know
that
this
is
gonna,
be
solid,
and
why-
and
you
know
after
a
bit
of
education
and
and
and
you
know
one
of
the
way
I
see
it
is
results
comparing
like.
Oh,
we
haven't
seen
hacks
here
at
all
right.
We
see
all
this
new
innovation,
you
know
and
you
get
all
the
things
that
come
with
it
right:
cheap
transaction
fees,
access
to
ethereum
markets,
right
and
and
and
data.
So
I
see
it
as
being
like
this
thing.
B
A
D
Absolutely,
and-
and
this
is
the
bridge
to
fintech
developers
right
people
that
are
not
quite
degenerate
enough
to
launch
a
d5
project,
but
they
they
see
this,
they
understand
they
can
understand
what
an
amm
does
and
why
it's
so
revolutionary
and
want
to
come
in
and
build
something
new.
This
is
the
way
you
reach
those
people
and
I
think,
in
part
also,
we've
talked
about
security
from
the
aspect
of
you
can
import
code
and
it's
been
battle
tested
already.
D
There
there's
also
a
lot
that
agorik
is
doing
to
make
sure
that
as
you're
actually
writing
the
code.
For
the
first
time,
you
can
reason
more
clearly
about
its
security
properties
and
dean.
I
don't
know
if
you
want
to
go
into
offer
safety
or
anything
like
that,
but
that
that's
a
big
part
of
what
we're
building
and
what
we're
spending
our
time.
Thinking
about
as
well.
B
A
Actually,
I
will
first
continue
my
example
of
the
governance
component,
because
simply
partitioning
risk
is
a
huge,
huge
win.
So,
in
the
case
of
I
grab
someone's
governance
code
and
compile
it
into
my
application
now,
not
only
could
that
code
help
me
with
governance,
it
could
take
my
private
keys
and
send
them
to
someone
in
a
different
country
right
why
it
had
access
to
my
private
keys.
A
I
don't
know
it's
because
the
frame
or
my
or
my
balances
in
my
contract,
it's
because
of
the
framework
of
most
software
infrastructures,
including
ethereum,
including
rust,
compiled
to
wasm
all
those
kinds
of
things
in
in
our
model
of
the
world.
You
know
it
comes
in.
It's
got
access
to
the
governance
thing
it
could,
you
know,
be
buggy
governance
and
and
and
and
and
and
say
yes,
when
it
was
only
51
instead
of
two-thirds
or
you
know,
40
percent
or
whatever
or
or
you
know,
treat
clayton's
vote
as
as
as
absolute.
A
So
it
could
cheat
on
government,
but
nothing
it
can
do
can
get
to
my
balances.
Nothing
it
can
do,
can
cause
a
transaction
that
steals
my
money.
Nothing
it
can
do.
Can
change
you
know
the
interest
rate
from
what
it
is
now
to
something
other
than
the
number
we're
voting
on
right,
and
so
that
partitioning
is
just
a
huge
risk
reduction.
B
So,
at
the
surface
like
this
is
these
are
this
is
may
seem
like
really
unsexy,
but
because
it's
like
for
the
average
user
like
okay,
what
like,
but
this
is
the
things
that
we
the
way
that
we
operate
in
with
all
of
these
new
contra,
with
with
these
new
smart
contracts
and
applications
that
we
kind
of
are
just
like.
Okay,
I'll
put
a
whole
bunch
of
money
in
and
other
people
do,
oh
put
some
more
money
in
there.
B
Maybe
it'll
be
okay
right,
maybe
I'll
get
some
insurance
to
help
but
like
having
things
built
well
from
the
ground
up.
That
means
that
that
things
aren't
going
to
touch
other
things
that
shouldn't
be
touched.
I
mean
this
is
why
we?
This
is
why
we
use
a
ledger
right
because,
right
you
know,
I
shouldn't
be.
I
shouldn't.
B
I
want
to
sign
transactions
easily
to
make
quick
trades
and
that
sort
of
thing,
but
I
shouldn't
but
but
that,
but
but
the
thing
that
I
use
to
sign
those
transactions
shouldn't
be
accessible
to
anyone
on
the
internet.
Well,
how
do
you
do
that?
Well,
right,
you
know
the
the
private
key
never
leaves
this
device
ever
and
so
like
this.
In
the
same
way,
I
I
guess
that's
what
you're
saying
here
that
some
things
are
sacred:
they
don't
need
to
be
touched
right.
They
just
need
to
get
the
information.
B
A
A
Is
privileged
principle
of
least
authority,
right
components
and
the
question:
is
you
actually
make
isolated
components
which
we
can
and
most
people
can
components
should
only
have
the
authority,
they
need
to
get
their
job
done
and
no
more,
and
if
you
just
do
that
sort
of
architecturally,
if
that's
just
the
default
of
how
things
plug
together.
Now
you
dramatically
reduce
the
overall
vulnerability
without
even
after
having
to
worry
about
it.
A
You
know
it's
sort
of
it
sort
of
naturally
falls
out
now
there
will
still
be
security
vulnerabilities,
but
the
key
thing
about
these
kinds
of
safety
properties-
and
we
talk
about
this-
is
a
safety
property
and
offer
safety
is
another
one
which
I'll
talk
about
a
moment.
You
know
when
memory
safety
came
out.
It's
not
that
the
bugs
moved
around
right.
It's
that
80
of
your
bugs
were
simply
off
the
table
because
you
were
using
java
or
c-sharp
or
javascript
or
ruby,
or
one
of
these
things
or
rust.
A
Or
what
have
you,
whereas
in
c
you'd
have
memory
bugs
and
buffer
overruns
and
all
this
kind
of
crap
those
just
went
away
right
and
and
and
that's
just
a
huge
huge
win
in
terms
of
improving
your
overall
safety
without
really
having
a
big
you
know,
without
impairing
your
ability
to
actually
program
what
it
means
is.
You
could
move
more
quickly
because
you
can
worry
about
you.
Don't
have
to
worry
about
that
class
of
problems
and
that's
exactly
and
being
able
to
grab
components.
A
D
Yeah
yeah,
and
just
to
sum
that
up,
I
I,
from
a
user
perspective,
it's
hard
for
us
to
construct
examples
for
why
it's
so
important,
because
they
feel
like
toy
examples,
but
from
a
developer's
perspective,
if
you're
deciding
whether
to
bring
external
code
into
your
contract.
The
question
is:
do
I
know
for
a
fact
that
that
code
cannot
possibly
do
something
bad
and
if
you
know
for
a
fact
that
it
can't
that's
a
much
different
thing
than
I
think
that
it
can't?
Because
I've
read
it,
and
I
you
know,
I.
D
B
So
it's
more
it's
more
sure-footed
steps.
People
can
move
a
lot
quicker
because
the
ground
they're
stepping
on
they
can
they
don't
have
to
be
constantly
evaluating
what
what
they're
building
on
and
like,
I
just
know
the
difference
between
when
I
use
an
interface
like
when
I
use
a
well-made
interface
to
send
a
transaction
versus
whether
I'm
typing
it
into
a
command
line.
Like
did
I
put
every
little
thing
in
this?
Like
you
know,
if
you
have
a
good
interface,
that's
wet
like
my
crypto
or
whatever
that's
like
well
made.
B
A
I
characterize
a
lot
of
the
user
interface
stuff
in
in
in
in
current
crypto.
You
know,
and
this
now
I'll
talk
about
the
after
offer
safety
thing.
I
characterize
it
as
you
know,
send
money
to
a
random
number
and
hope
something
good
happens
right.
You
know,
I
mean
you
know
the
the
and
what's
funny
is,
is
working
with
dan
finley
of
metamask,
and
I
got
him
to
put
together
the
slide
that
actually
used
his
addresses.
Where
you
know
you
go
through.
A
I
want
to
send
money
to
rent,
you
know
to
dan
and
what
I'm
actually
doing
is
send
money
to
0x943s
and
then
then
you
go
to
uniswap
and
you
do
the
same
thing.
You
know
I'm
going
to
trade
this
token.
For
that
token,
and
it's
this
amount
and
it
does
the
estimation
all
the
stuff,
I
push
a
button
and
the
approval
that
comes
up
is,
you
know,
send
eight
eth
to
0xa47.
A
I
don't
know.
Is
that
the
right
thing-
and
you
know
we
saw
who
was
the
the
the
the
guy
that
runs
nexus
mutual?
You
know
he
got.
You
know
a
bunch
of
random
numbers
he's
like
well.
Those
look
right.
Those
look
right
there
well
turns
out.
One
of
them
was
not
right,
but
several
of
them
were,
and
it's
just
totally
unreasonable
for
him
to
you
know
for
a
human
to
be
expected
to
operate
with
it's
like
using
a
spreadsheet
where
you
know
to
name
a
cell.
A
You
have
to
use
the
hex
address
of
the
memory.
You
know
the
location
in
memory
that
that
number
is
going
to
be
at
it's
just
nuts
right,
so
our
model
of
the
world
that
then
pervades
all
sort
of
elements
of
our.
You
know
well
everything
above
kendraman
right.
You
know
the
the
elements
of
how
we
build
our
framework
and
then
it
also
goes
all
the
way
out
to
the
to
the
ui
and
the
wallets.
Is
I
don't
want
to
just
send
money?
I
want
you
know.
Business
is
good
broco
right,
I
want
wanna.
A
I
will
give
you
this.
I
will
give
you
this
money.
If
you
give
me
that
concert
ticket
right
and
so
our
contract
framework
is
such
that
again,
instead
of
sending
money
to
the
contract,
and
then
it's
gonna
decide
what
to
do,
and
maybe
it'll
give
your
money
back.
You
know
or
if
it's
an
auction,
maybe
you're
the
winner,
maybe
you're
the
loser,
but
I'm
gonna
keep
your
money
anyway,
and
a
bug
can
steal
your
money.
Instead,
that
money
goes
into
the
contract
framework
itself
right.
You
know
this
thing.
A
We
call
zoe
so
that
now
the
contract
knows
you
know,
there's
cash
on
the
barrel
head
sitting
there
available
to
you,
mr
contract,
if
you
provide
the
concert
ticket
to
it
right
and
now,
if
there's
an
opt-in
for
this
concert
ticket
there
might
be
a
hundred
bids,
but
the
only
way
the
contract.
It
knows
how
much
is
there,
it
knows
what
it
can
do.
It
knows
all
the
bidders
or
it
knows.
Rather,
you
know
what
the
offers
are.
A
The
only
thing
you
can
do
to
get
that
money
is
give
that
contract
ticket
to
one
of
those
bits.
One
of
those
offers
right
and
so
and
and
and
so
a
buggy
auction
could
award
it
to
the
wrong
party
in
exchange
for
less
money
than
they
could
have
gotten,
but
the
infrastructure
itself
will
prevent
them
from
taking
more
money
than
the
than
the
offer
than
than
the
offer
specified
and
will
will
only
let
them
take
the
money
if
they
present
the
other
side
if
they
present
the
want
of
that
of
that
offer.
B
A
Right
right,
right
and-
and
so
you
know
like
type
safety,
it
doesn't
solve
all
your
problems,
but
it
takes.
It
makes
a
category
of
them
non-issues.
You
know
we
look
at
at
various
exploits
we
see
in
ethereum,
and
some
of
it
was
inspired
by
that
exploit.
That
ought
to
be
impossible
right.
That's
that's!
Not
a
human
mistake,
that's
not
a
human!
We,
the
problem
with
ethereum
is
security.
Experts
have
repeatedly
rolled
out
contracts
that
seem
like
they're
valuable
and
they
lose
tens
of
millions
of
dollars
in
minutes
with
no
recourse.
A
These
are
smart
people
if
they
can't
get
it
right.
There
is
no
way
you
get
millions
of
developers
to
get
this
right
right,
and
so
it's
so
that
you
look
at
these
and
go
that
one
shouldn't
be
possible
that
one
okay-
maybe
that
was
dumb
right,
but
that
one
those
you
know
those
eight
that
should
just
shouldn't
have
been
possible,
like
it
shouldn't
even
be
possible.
A
A
design
you
shouldn't
be
able
to
write
code
that
could
cause
that
bug
without
without
really
working
it
right.
You
know,
I
mean
the
the
the
I
mean
several
things
like
you
know
like
it
takes
your
money
and,
and
some
third
party
comes
and
drains
it.
Well,
you
know
it.
The
contract
shouldn't
be
in
a
position
such
that
a
bug
would
allow
it
to
get
rid
of
the
money
that
you
that
it
was
obligated
to
only
take
if
it
gave
you
some
other
thing
now.
A
B
And
so
like
at
the
developer
level,
what
this
probably
makes
sense
to
a
lot
of
people
who
are
familiar
with
this
kind
of
development,
but
for
anybody
else,
that's
not
a
developer.
I
think
that
what
we're
looking
at
here
is
the
the
a
lot
of
the
assumptions
that
we
make
and
a
lot
of
the
trepidation,
stepping
that
we
do
when
we
use
existing
d5
applications.
B
It's
a
very
simple
device,
and
so
at
first
at
first
glance,
you
think
yourself,
like
okay
developer,
speak
blah,
blah
blah,
but,
like
I
think,
what
we're
hearing,
what
we
should
be
hearing
here
is
that
this
is
like
d5.
These
are
d5
seat
belts
that
you
can
still
drive
your
car
as
fast
as
you
did
before,
as
it'll
be
as
exciting
as
it
ever
was
before,
but
a
new
kind
of
excitement
not
will
I
fly
through
a
windshield
right
right.
A
You
know
defy
as
sort
of
the
next
frontier
of
finance
like
most
frontiers,
it's
exciting
but
dangerous.
We
want
it
to
be
more
exciting
and
still
less
dangerous
right.
You
know,
so
it's
a
little
bit
the
analogy
of
seat
belts,
but
but
but
but
let's
go
farther
than
that,
and
now
we're
talking
racing
harness
right.
You
know
I
can
drive
a
lot
faster
if
I'm
in
a
racing
artist
and
have
a
roll
cage
right.
You
know
and
and
you
know
and
and
so
I
can
drive
both
faster
and
I'm
safer.
A
B
Don't
sleep
at
night
have
tons
of
resources
to
be
able
to
like
build
so
ever
like
they're
kind
of
almost
it's
almost
like
a
cult
of
personality
where
people
are
like,
oh
so-and-so
is
going
to
make
the
next
urine
of
altar.
It's
super
exciting
or
whatever,
but
like
these
things
aren't
like,
like
I
mean
because
this,
the
the
foundation
and
the
you
know,
the
the
substrate
that
they're
growing
in
is
is
so
is
so
hostile
they're,
the
only
ones
that
can
survive
in
this
space
right.
B
So
it's
kind
of
like
oh
it's
amazing,
but
like
if
the
if
this,
if
the
environment,
that
they
were
growing,
these
things
in
these
products
in
was
it
was
like
what
we're
talking
about
now.
You
know
you
wouldn't
need
that
you
wouldn't
need
to
be
a
polymath
prodigy
with
with
no
amygdala
right
to
make
this
stuff
and
tons
of
tons
of
money.
B
A
You
know
cobble
stuff
together
but
easily
build
using
components
that
other
people
don't
right.
That's
a
huge
huge
ingredient,
but
one
of
the
things
you
know
that
I
want
to
go
back
to
to
something
that
that
roland
mentioned
earlier
or
actually
you
were
talking
about
how
you
know
you
weren't
ready
to
get
into
this.
You
know
10
yield
whatever
thing,
because
it
was
a
little
too.
You
know
strange
and
edgy
you
couldn't
figure
out.
A
What's
going
on,
I
you
know
my
previous
job
to
running
agoric
was
building
a
as
it
turns
out
multi-billion
dollar
payment
instrument
as
typical
fintech,
and
one
of
the
things
that
I
observed
in
the
world
of
fintech
development
is
there's
a
lot
of
entrepreneurial
developers
right
every
single
person
I
talked
to
you
know
in
in
everyone
we
hired
in
our
company,
everyone
we
talked
to
in
companies.
We
bridged
to
all
the
evangelists
in
the
in
you
know
they
were
all
very
entrepreneurial.
A
Often
it
was
what
am
I
doing
with
my
saturday.
If
they
didn't
have
a
consulting
gig,
then
they
were
designing
some.
You
know
the
next
thing
that
they
might
want
to
do
at
their
next
startup,
and
it's
not
that
they
were
all
going
to
start
companies,
it's
that
they
all
had
some
service
that
they
wanted
to
roll
out
or
that
they
would
work
with
someone
to
build
and
they'd
carry
it
off
and
they'd
go
off
and
do
the
next
thing,
but
they
but
they've
got
a
lot
of
options
right.
A
A
A
You
know,
there's
an
untapped
potential
for
people
that
really
are
financially
motivated,
entrepreneurial,
think
about
new
kinds
of
finance
applications
that
that
you
know
lowering
that
ramp
means
more
of
them
will
come
across
the
bridge.
You
know
over
over
into
this
space
and
they
will
bring
new
opportunities
for
existing
dpi
investors,
existing
d5
traders,
new
ability
to
go.
Oh
they're,
doing
that.
Oh
yeah!
Isn't
that
cute?
They
didn't.
You
know
we
did
that
50
years
ago.
Here's
the
opportunity
there
I'm
going
to
take
their
lunch
and
then
do
it
right.
A
You
know,
or
what
have
you
there's
a
lot
of
really
smart
people
on
d5,
but
some
of
them,
you
know,
are
getting
away
with
things
that
don't
work
in
the
real
world,
because
other
players
know
how
to
extract
the
value
from
them,
and
so
there's
going
to
be
an
interesting
mix,
and
you
know
all
of
this
will
turn
into
much.
All
of
this
will
will
grow
much
faster
and
bridge
to
the
mainstream
markets
and
the
mainstream
capital
pools
much
faster.
C
Yeah
and
I
I
think,
a
lot
of
people
that,
like
we
talk
about
barrier
to
entry
but
like
the
most
around
certain
languages
as
well,
it's
like
javascript
education
is
a
billion
dollar
industry
and
then,
like
you,
get
out
of
that,
then
you're
offered
a
job
at
a
very
nice
company,
getting
top
10
salary
of
whatever
country
you
live
in.
So
it's
like.
A
B
You
know
there
needs
to
be
a
reason
to
attract
them
right
and
it's
like
if
they
see
if
they
see
every
time,
there's
a
new
cohort
entering
into
this
tech,
producing
amazing
products
and
every
time
a
new
amazing
product
is
built.
That
makes
it
easier
for
you,
new
users,
we'll
see
more
new
users
and
it's
kind
of
this
interplay
right.
I
think
this
like
this.
B
You
know
we
need
users,
we
need
developers,
we
need
new
products,
we
need
new,
you
know
consumers
and
so
every-
and
this
is
like
taking
it
to
the
next
level.
Every
time
right
like
we,
we
will
build
amazing,
innovative
new
products
so
that
it's
not
just
these,
like
post-apocalyptic
coding,
warriors
right.
C
B
I
think
people
don't
really
get
that
they're,
just
kind
of
like
waiting
with
baited
breath
for
the
next,
the
next
product,
that's
delivered
by
the
existing
few,
who
are
who
are
bold
enough
and
and
outfitted
enough
to
work
in
the
space
but
like,
let's
face
it
like
there
are
people
who
want
to
build
who,
who,
like
you
said,
have
really
great
ideas
who
are
who
who
are
specialized
but
so
specialized
that
they
don't
really.
I
mean
I
don't
want
to
run
blockchain
infrastructure.
B
I
don't
want
to
figure
out
how
to
know
every
nuance
of
like
potential
code
problems
they
just
they
don't
touch
it
from
the
outset
and
if
you
and
and
then
so
it's
the
same
way,
you've
got
these
application.
Specific
blockchains
launching
we've
got
terra,
we've
got
like
other
other.
You
know
akash
and
stuff.
Where
you
don't
necess,
you
don't
need
to
build
it
from
scratch.
B
Again,
you
could
just
focus
on
your
amazing
thing
that
you're
building
right-
and
this
is
in
the
same
way
now
instead
of
I
don't
need
to
rally
up
validators
and
and
bootstrap
and
eco,
because
I
could
just
plug
in
so
now.
You
can
have
someone
who's
like
like
even
more
specialized
who's
like
really
good
at
making
like
some
some
futuristic
financial
product.
That's
gonna,
like
turn
crypto
users
on
their
heads,
attract
all
kinds
of
new
users
right
and
they're
gonna
build
like
amazing
interfaces.
B
User
interfaces
like
instead
of
like
kind
of
beating
that
dead
horse
of
being
like
crypto's,
just
so
awful
to
interact
with
you
know
it's
also
developing
in
crypto,
is
so
awful.
I
think
that
this
is
andre.
The
the
the
person
who
everybody
is
kind
of
excited
about
has
written
a
number
of
articles
saying
about
how
nightmarish
it
is
working.
This
space
like
this
is
a
guy
who's,
tenacious
and
clearly
gifted
and
even
he's
like
one
like
wonders,
sits
and
sits
down
and
scratches
his
head
and
wonders
what
the
hell
he's
doing.
B
A
And
the
other
thing,
the
other
thing
is:
is
that
the
other
kind
of
innovation,
that's
really
important
and
kind
of
underrated
is
a
lot
of
innovation
is
incremental
right.
You
know,
I
said
that
example
of
stop
loss
against
against
existing
amms,
that's
an
incremental
enhancement
that
could
really
be
valuable
to
a
lot
of
people.
You
know
you
know
if,
in
order
to
roll
out
that
enhancement,
I
need
to
stand
up
a
whole
new
chain
and
a
whole
new
interop
infrastructure
to
ethereum.
A
That's
a
crazy
amount
of
work
for
something
that
should
be
20
lines
of
code
right
and
and
so
by
having
these
plugable
pieces
now
more
developers
can
contribute
where
they've
got
an
idea.
That
is
good
and
useful,
but
not
enough
of
a
differentiator
to
stand
up
a
whole
new
business
right,
and
so
they
can
contribute.
You
know
the
the
I
mean
the
sonny's
chain
coming
out,
which
is
an
amm.
You
know
work
bench
thing
well,
once
you've
got
some
cool
idea,
you
know.
Okay,
great
now,
I've
got
an
amm.
A
I
would
like
to
apply
that
into
some
few
minor
innovations
in
a
vault
architecture
that
leverages
these
innovations.
In
an
amm
you
know
and
plugs
them
together.
What
does
it
take
to
do
that?
Little
increment
and
this
little
increment
over
here?
So
I
can
do
automated
liquidation
or
I
have
rate
limited
liquidation
service.
All
of
those
you
know
one
person
could
do
the
rate,
limited
liquidation
service,
and
now
I
plug
that
into
my
slightly
improved.
A
B
A
And
I
don't
want
to
go
from,
you
know
a
a
a
a
banking
hegemony
to
a
compound
hegemony.
I
want
multiple,
you
know
different
services
that
that
that
have
to
compete
on
an
even
footing.
All
you
know
vying
to
provide
me
better,
safer,
faster
enhancement
of
my
money,
and
you
know,
and
and
so
you
know-
having
innovation
and
having
enough
of
an
economy
that
multiple
players
are
successful.
Instead
of,
as
you
say,
these,
you
know
it's
it's
it's
all
dramatic
entrances
and
exits.
You
know
that.
That's
that's!
Where
we'll
be.
A
I
like
both
right,
I've
been
an
entrepreneur
for
a
long
time.
I,
like
you,
know
big
explosive,
new
things
and
I
and
I
enjoy
building
them.
I
enjoy
other
people,
building
them
and
explaining
them
and
connecting
to
them,
and
all
that,
but
you
know
but
but
the
economy
has
a
spectrum
of
those
things
and
our
goal
is
you
know
more
inclusive,
so
that
more
people
can
cooperate
in
more
ways.
A
B
Can
focus
on
things
that
are
like
actually
exciting
that
because
you
want
them
to
be
exciting
right,
so
so
we
talked
a
lot
about
like
the
what
an
igor
like
ecosystem
looks
like,
but
like.
Maybe
we
could
take
a
few
minutes
to
talk
about
a
little
bit
more
about
like
what
about
a
girth
itself
like
it's,
it's
using
the
cosmos
sdk,
you
know
it's,
but
it's
clearly
going
to
be
different
from
from
the
cosmos
hub.
You
know
like
what's.
This
is
the
ast
token
right.
B
A
So
key
thing
that
any
chain
should
answer
key
question
should
answer:
is
you
know
how
does
val
any?
How
does
value
accrue
to
the
staking
token
right
and
that's
not
because
that's
not
because
of
profitability,
reasons
or
revenue
reasons
or
making
investors
happy,
but
that's
always
nice,
it's
that
for
a
proof
of
stake
chain.
It
better
be
the
case
that
the
value
of
your
staking
token
grows
with
the
economic
act,
the
size
of
the
economic
activity
that
it's
protecting
right.
A
A
You
know
various
crimes
against
consensus,
right
and
so,
and
so
the
key
difference
in
architecture
of
the
overall
agorak
economy
is
that
it's
designed
so
that
the
the
the
value
that
flows
to
the
staking
token
is
not
just
did
transactions
happen
or
not
just
did
messages
get
sent
because
that's
sort
of
like
charging
for
postage
right
and
you
know
which
is
important.
But
it's
you
know
a
very
small
fraction
of
my
budget
as
a
business.
It's.
A
In
that
a
m:
the
fees
from
minting
the
the
the
local
currency,
the
local,
stable
coin
that
you
pay
for
execution.
You
pay
for
services,
you
pay
for
reservations
of
names,
you
pay
for
whatever
the
the
the
fees
from
that
flow
into
the
rewards
to
the
validator,
so
the
validators,
or
to
the
stakers
right,
so
that
the
reward
is
proportional.
Is
it
you
know
the
design?
Is
it's
proportional
to
the
economic
activity,
not
proportional
to
how
many
messages
you
send.
A
B
This
is
part
of
that
guarantee
right.
Part
of
the
strength
of
the
guarantee
is
because
it's
all
being
secured
by
economic
capital.
The
this,
however,
the
the
the
strength
of
your
guarantees
is
dependent
on
how
valuable
the
the
asset
is,
that's
being
staked,
and
so
it's
it's
like
intrinsic
in
here
that
that,
like
it's,
it's
it's
inherent
that
the
value
of
this
token
needs
to
be
capturing,
and
this
makes
sense
for.
A
A
Exactly
exactly
and
the
other
thing
that
the
applications
are
deploying
gets,
you
know
to
is
economies
work.
You
know
local
economies
have
a
local
currency
so
that
when
I
go
to
the
market,
I
can
compare
prices
between
multiple
vendors.
I
can.
I
can
you
know
the
pricing
of
going
to
the
local
mall
and
buying
a
you
know:
option
against
some
stock
here
and
hedging
it
over
there
and
buying
insurance
there,
because
that's
what
you
do
with
them
all
right.
A
You
know
the
the
ability
to
trade
off
the
price
of
that
insurance
versus
that
you
know
nexus
mutual
kind
of
thing
versus
edging
it
over
there
or
buying
a
position.
You
know
I
want
to
be
able
to
compare
those
easily
as
opposed
to
every
time
I
go.
Okay,
so
which
currency?
Do
you
take?
Okay
and
what's
the
exchange
rate,
because
I
know
it's
not
quite
one-to-one
so
I'll,
do
you
know?
Okay,
you
know.
Am
I
getting
screwed
here?
A
Are
you
you
know
having
a
consistent
having
an
economy,
a
place
where
there
are
multiple
businesses
that
can
all
interoperate
with
each
other
and
present
a
consistent
interface
to
the
user
and
provide
posted
prices,
and
all
these
things
that
we
know
reach
the
wheel
of
the
commerce?
You
know
that's
one
of
the
key
elements,
and
so
again
the
the
the
these
benefits
business
benefit
from.
I
can
roll
it
out
and
not
have
to
worry
about.
You
know
which
of
the
16
currencies.
Should
I
be
taking.
You
know
it's
like
no
convertible,
you
know
relatively
low.
A
You
know
collateralization
and
fee
to
be
able
to
do
that.
Do
your
local
transactions,
you
know,
take
your
rewards
back
to
ethereum
or
or
or
you
know,
tardigrade
or
whatever
it
is
you're.
Taking
your
your
results
to
right
and,
and
you
know,
but
but
the
ability
to
have
participated
in
the
innovation
that
we
were
able
to
have
on
our
chain.
You
know
is
to
be
available
to
people
not
just
on
our
chain,
but
people
else.
A
A
Definitely
you
know
definitely
that
kind
of
thing
you
could
imagine
being
of
value.
You
know
what
are
the
entry
points
for
new
people
coming
to
the
ecosystem.
People
already
know
their
way
around
they.
Don't
they
don't
need
that
right?
You
know
the
and,
and-
and
so
so
some
of
you
so
part
of
the
idea
there
is
is
you
would
like
there
to
be
able
to
be
multiple
sources
of
curation
and
people
can
opt
into
whichever
one
they
they
find
valuable,
but
obviously
there'll
be
some
default
set
of
curations.
D
And-
and
there
will
be
the
components
that
are
part
of
our
our
core
protocol,
which
obviously
are
sort
of
privileged
in
certain
ways,
but
also
include
code
that
people
can
reuse
in
their
own
applications
right.
So
if
you
have
a
different
vault
kind
of
thing,
you
want
to
do
if
you
have
a
different
amm
kind
of
thing.
You
want
to
do
we'll
have
examples
that
you
can
launch.
B
We
did
you
know
next,
you
know
we
should
do
it
again.
We
should
talk
a
little
bit
more,
something
we
didn't
even
touch
on
nfts.
I
know
that
you've
got
some
probably
exciting
stuff
to
talk
about.
There
I
mean
d5
is
super
hot
but
like
nfts
are
really
coming
up,
and
I
know
that
you've
got
some
some
really
cool
ideas
there.
So
maybe
we
could
we
could
like
continue
this
conversation.
I.
B
B
It's
a
growing
team,
so
yeah,
so
what's
on
the
menu
for
for
nfts,
well,
okay,
so
so
I-
and
I
should
I
should
preface
for
anyone
who
doesn't
know
nft
non-fungible
token.
The
idea
is
that,
like
ether
or
like
you
know,
adam
or
whatever
asset
that
you
know
they're
all
exactly
the
same
so
like
if
I
have
a
an
atom
or
you
have
an
atom
like
it,
it
doesn't
really
matter
where
that
atom
originated.
There
are
no
special
properties.
B
A
Okay,
so
so-
and
just
I-
I
only
have
a
few
minutes
here,
so
I'm
just
going
to
tease
you
on
nfps
and
we
should.
We
should
really
plan
to
continue
another
time.
So
in
our
you,
we
have
example
dapps
in
our
system
as
part
of
the
development.
It's
all
open
source
people
can
grab
it.
You
know
come
to
get
hubba,
gorek
and
and
get
it
there
are
nft
examples.
You
know,
kate
sells
one
of
the
you
know
our
main
developer
on
the
contract
framework.
A
She,
you
know
she
built
an
nft
application
in
a
day
we're
creating
an
nft,
a
new
nfd.
You
know
it's
just
one
more
line
of
javascript
code.
I
want
to
be
able
to
meet
new
tokens.
I
want
to
admit
new
tokens
that
are
all
distinct
from
each
other.
They
have
the
following
structure:
we're
off
to
the
races
and
so
building
nfts
is
really
easy
in
this
framework.
The
overall
protocol
for
being
able
to
do
trading
in
exchange
all
of
zoe.
A
It
equally
applies
to
nfps
and
and-
and
I
think
we
should
we
should-
we
should
probably
leave
that
as
sort
of
a
starting
point
for
our
next
round
of
conversation,
and-
and
you
know,
since
our
our
you
know,
really
is
heads
down
on
development
of
getting
this
stuff
done.
You
know
getting
getting
back
to
the
engineering
team
that
that
they're
starting
to
get
answer
here.
I
probably.
B
I
think
there's
an
incentivized
test
test
net
coming
up,
there's
a
lot,
a
lot
to
be
excited
about
to
start
to
like
play
with
a
lot
of
stuff.
If
you're
a
developer,
you
know
if
you're
a
seeking
service
provider
a
hobbyist,
there's
a
lot
to
to
kind
of
take
in
here-
and
I
you
know-
I'm
personally
really
excited
about
this.
This
protocol
launch-
and
I
really
see
it
as
like-
a
like
see
the
long
kind
of
long
vision
here.