►
Description
IBC is a standard that permits anyone to quickly and securely transfer money across the web. Zaki Manian is the head of research at Tendermint Inc, an implementation of BFT consensus algorithm & PoS cryptoeconomics and a core contributor to the Cosmos Network. Dean Tribble, CEO at Agoric, is working on providing a safer, simpler way to program smart contracts.
IBC overview: https://cosmos.network/ibc/
This Week in Crypto is a roundup on the latest in blockchain and cryptocurrency. Tune in for weekly news and interviews with guests from top projects in blockchain.
Listen on iTunes: https://apple.co/34inUMj
#IBC #Agoric #Cosmos
A
Hello,
everyone
and
welcome
to
this
weekend
crypto.
This
is
part
of
our
guest
series
in
on
this
episode,
we're
gonna
be
talking
about
inner
blushing
communication
and
with
us
today
we
have
Dean
Tribble
CEO
of
a
goreck
and
sukeimon
yin
head
of
research
at
tender
mints
guys.
Thank
you
so
much
for
joining
us.
It's.
A
A
B
B
You
know
it
was
it's
been
a
long
and
quite
frequently
painful
and
always
complicated
journey
of
taking
the
idea
of
you
know:
building
a
production,
public,
blockchain,
classical
consensus,
algorithm
getting
that
engine
robust
enough
that
it
actually
work
in
public
networks.
I
mean,
like
you
know,
billions
of
dollars
can
rely
on
it,
getting
all
of
that
to
maturity.
Developing
the
entertained
messaging
protocol.
Writing
ass
back.
You
know
launching
the
the
first
classical
consensus,
a
proof
of
stake
chain,
public
chain
proof
of
stake.
B
Public
hain,
like
all
of
these
things
are
just
has
been
this
like
sort
of
challenging
but
steady
movement
in
like
sort
of
one
direction,
and
that
direction
is
sort
of
starting
to
manifest
itself
fully
now
with
IBC
the
cosmos
SDK
tender
mint.
All
of
these
things
now
sort
of
existing
and
people
using
so.
B
So
for
2018
my
role
was
figuring
out
how
to
launch,
because
essentially
no
one
have
ever
launched
anything
like
the
clock,
like
what
the
cosmos
club
was.
We
had
very
high
standards
for
what
we
were
trying
to
do
in
terms
of
we
wanted
a
fully
decentralized
launched
of
a
proof
of
state
network
we
wanted.
You
know
we
wanted
to.
We
wanted
to
have
this
like
rich
community
of
validators,
no
validators
existed
when
we
started
so
I,
basically
put
all
of
that
ecosystem
together
in
2018
sort
of
the
first
half
of
so
we
launched.
B
You
know
when
the
network
launched
in
March
I
sort
of
refocused.
My
energy
on
guiding
the
IBC
efforts
and
now
I'm
starting
to
I,
would
say
kind
of
more
holistically,
focused
on
the
as
IBC
sort
of
starts
to
firm
up
I'm,
starting
to
focus
holistically
on,
like
the
whole,
wider
cosmos
ecosystem
and
just
trying
to
figure
out
how
we
like
accelerate
execution
both
within
so.
B
I
was
actually
involved,
I
mean
I
shook,
so
I
was
the
first
person
to
donate
money
to
the
interchange
foundation.
I
was
the
first
person
to
say
yes
to
the
idea
of
doing
a
cosmos
network,
so
my
history
with
cosmos
goes
all
the
way
back
to
2016
and
I've
been
and
like
Jay
and
Ethan
actually
met
each
other
at
a
conference.
One
of
my
previous
startups
posted
in
2015,
so
I
guess
I've
been
involved
in
this
essentially
forever
great.
B
Eft
is
the
sort
of
preferred
or
like
first
consensus,
engine
that
is
compatible
with
IBC,
and
this
is
what
we
needed
in
order
to
build.
Ibc
is
a
very
let's
say,
rigorously
defined
and
rigorously
implement
and
rigorously
analyzed
consensus
engine
in
order
to
have
the
security
properties
of
the
inner
box
chain.
B
Communication
that
we
wanted
to
have,
and
so
tenorman
is
really
the
first
consensus
engine
in
the
world
that
sort
of
meets
those
standards
and
allows
us
now
to
define
a
secure
light
client
on
another
blockchain
that
can
then
be
used
to
verify
messages
from
one
tender
bit
blockchain
to
another
tournament.
Blockchain,
don't
we
anticipate
other
consensus
engines
from
other
projects?
Will
you
know
will
be
able
to
be
supported
inside
the
IBC
issue?
Great.
A
C
We
so
at
the
hackathon,
the
defy
hackathon
at
the
beginning
of
the
beginning
of
November,
we
had
our
platform
and
stet
available
for
people
to
work
on
a
couple
of
projects
built
on
it,
and
it
has
several
things.
First
off,
of
course
it's
got
ten
durmand
at
the
bottom
for
our
for
our
investment.
We
are
chain
agnostic,
but
we
love
the
cosmos,
team
and
and
and
and
the
stuff
that
they're
doing
so
we're
built
on
ten
durmand.
We
have
our
secure,
VMs
layer.
If
you
will
our
layers.
B
C
Contract
all
the
way
up
to
what
we
recently
revealed
was
the
contract
system.
We
call
Zoe
for
doing
offer,
based
interaction
between
smart
contracts
and
users
and
contracts,
so
it's
a
much
better
model
for
how
smart
contracts
operate,
and
this
was
the
first
place
that
people
could
actually
start
to
build
on.
So
we
just
crossed
that
threshold.
We
got
a
lot
of
experience
both
getting
that
out
and
also
with
the
people
that
have
have
worked
with
it
since
then,
and
so
we're
now
incorporating
that
feedback.
C
A
And
jumping
into
interblock
communication
I
want
to
start
off
sort
of
at
the
bigger
picture
and
I
think
what
I
see
is
a
bigger
picture
is
that's,
so
cosmos
is
building
the
blocking
of
watch
chains
and
essentially
we're
gonna
have
certain
block
chains
that
are
very
specialized
at
what
they
do
and
it's
we're
gonna
reach
a
point
where
some
block
chains,
it's
more
efficient,
to
have
to
offload
a
certain
action
on
to
know
they're
watching
and
therefore
this
is
where
inner
blotching
communication
comes
in.
I
want
to
switch
that
pitch
a.
B
Little
bit,
what
I
think
is
important.
I
would
say
that
there's
there's
we
sue.
Ultimately,
why
do
we
build
watch
as
we
build
auctions
because
they
are
networks
of
people
to
share
a
Commons
like
some
common
resource,
some
common
description
of
their
relationships
with
each
other,
some
relationship
management
system?
B
What
I
think
the
core
insight
that,
like
they're,
the
core
insight
that
we
like
started
out
with
cosmos
with?
Was
it's
not
like
I,
don't
know
how
to
build
high
throughput
scalable
watchings
know
how
to
do
that.
But
ultimately
there
is
some
limitation
on
what
is
like
the
number
of
people
that
it
is
feasible
to
like
socially
coordinate
with
each
other
around
the
design
of
the
system.
B
So
part
of
the
appeal
to
us
of
application-specific
blockchains
is
if
what
the
blockchain
does
is
very
well-defined
and
specific,
it's
easier
to
come
to
agreement
around
how
the
blockchain
should
work,
how
it
should
change
over
time,
whereas
if
a
blockchain
has
you
know,
it
is
a
Swiss
Army
knife
and
can
do
and
is
design
solve
all
possible
problems
and
do
all
possible
things
coming
to
agreement
among
all
of
the
stakeholders
in
that
bar
train
about
how
the
Box
change
changes
over
time
becomes
really
hard.
So
that's
one
aspect.
B
The
the
second
aspect
of
it
is
is
that
human
beings,
just
naturally
have
affinity
groups
like
they
Jeff.
It
is
natural
for
humans
to
like,
like
like,
there
is
affinity
between
us
between
the
ten
Derman
team
and
the
cosmos
team,
the
agora
team,
but
you
know
that
affinity
group
ends
somewhere,
especially
when
we
start
to
imagine.
B
Blockchain
is
becoming
more
important
in
the
world,
and
so
these
are
the
two
reasons
why
we
think
you
know
there's
always
going
to
be
needs
for
many
blockchains,
but
the
many
blockchain
world
doesn't
work
and
what,
if
you
have
to
buy,
create
an
economy
from
scratch
every
time
you
want
to
blockchain
to
come
into
existence,
so
you
need
some
degree
of
like
economic
interoperability
and
economic
specialization,
and
that's
where
IBC
comes.
Can.
A
B
B
Today,
which
is
probabilistic
finality
probabilistic
finality
cut
with
also
comes
with
synchrony
assumptions,
so
you're
assuming
things
about
your
ability
to
communicate
over
the
network,
and
that's
why
your
blockchain
has
to
be
slow
proof
of
work,
but
even
the
proof
of
stake,
blockchains
that
came
before
a
cop
of
the
cosmos
hub
or
also
slow
block
chains.
So
a
lot
of
these
solutions
that
have
existed
so
far,
things
that
you
know
are
sort
of
in
productions
like
atomic
swaps.
B
What
cosmos
anticipates
is
a
world
in
the
future,
where
there's
probably
only
going
to
be
one
slow,
blockchain
that
really
matters
and
that
slow
blockchain
is
going
to
be
Bitcoin,
and
we
expect
most
of
the
transaction
volume
is
going
to
move
too
fast
block
chains.
An
IBC
is
a
fast
walk
chain
to
pass
blockchain
solution,
so
things
that
are
fast
bought
chains
are
cosmos.
B
You
know
anything
based
on
tender,
mint,
polka
dot,
which
is
based
on
grandpa
if
you're
iam,
2.0,
jizz,
gee
Casper.
All
of
these
have
these
characteristics
of
fastball
changes
that
we're
looking
for,
which
is
asynchronous
safety
fast
finality,
and
you
know,
state
is
somewhat
cheaper
than
it
is
on
these
slow
block
trainers
and
so
really
what
that's
the
world
we've
been
designing.
So.
A
C
So
this
is
one
of
those
things
where
you
know
it
started
with
really.
You
know
focused
on
things
that
were
fast
blockchain
to
fast
blockchain,
the
the
effort
that
started
in
summer
of
this
year
to
go
through
the
spec
and
refine
it
and
enhancement
and
get
towards
a
spec
1.0.
One
of
the
things
we
wanted
to
make
sure
to
be
able
to
accommodate
is
integration
with
slow,
blockchain,
specifically
etherium,
now
or
aetherium
in
the
short
term.
C
You
know
so
that
there's
real
smart
contracts
on
one
side
and
and
fast
blockchain
stuff
on
the
other
and
be
able
to
have
those
interoperate
and
have
that
fit
within
the
standard.
That's
not
implemented
in
the
current
prototypes,
but
it
but
it,
but
it
is
or
the
current
v1
underway,
but
it
is
supported
in
the
standard
and
someone
will
be
able
to
do
that.
Work
to
bridge
all
of
all
of
IVC
enable
IBC
chains
to
connect
over
IBC
to
to
some
of
these
little
objects.
C
Now,
fundamentally,
you
still
end
up
with
needing
to
explicitly
model
a
finality
threshold.
So
you're
talking
to
a
probabilistic
blockchain,
you
know
they're,
you
know
if
it's
low
value,
maybe
four
blocks
of
finality
is
fine.
That's
relatively
low
latency,
but
if
you
want
high
enough
assurance
for
major
major
funds
transfers-
or
you
know,
asset
sharing
across
these
things,
then
you
need
a
very
high
level
finality
which
makes
that
connection
to
these
slow
block
chains
reflect
all
of
the
latency
that
they
that
they
input
so.
A
B
C
So
you
know
you
could
do
lots
of
things
before
TCP
with
custom,
Network
protocols
and
custom
hardware.
Tcp
raised
the
level
of
abstraction,
so
you
could
easily
connect
with
lots
of
parties,
so
you
could
focus
on
the
application
layer,
not
the
underlying
plumbing
and
so
a
lot
of
what
IBC
is.
Is
you
know
combining
the
vision
of
how
do
we
do
distributed
systems
with
all
of
the
expertise
of
nicely
abstracting?
How
did
people
do
at
Thomas
Rocks?
How
did
people
do
relay?
How
did
they
do?
C
Cross-Chain
proof,
verification
and
abstract
that
into
the
underpinning,
so
that
you
know
I
can
put
those
together
and
I
the
application
developer
can
leverage
that
expertise
and
focus
on
my
application
down
focus
on
you
know,
fungible
token
swaps,
at
the
lowest
level
non
functional
tokens.
Those
are
hugely
important,
but
they're
easy.
You
know
that's
sort
of
the
lowest
hanging
fruit
of
application
protocols
we
get
to
build
on
this.
You
know
we
starting
to
add.
C
Okay,
I've
got
a
chain
and
I
want
to
be
able
to
use
proof
of
location
or
proof
of
authentication
or
some
credentialing
thing.
That's
on
a
custom
chain.
That's
well!
Optimized
for
it,
but
I
want
to
bring
it
over
to
my
application
or
smart
contract
chain
over
here
and
IBC
will,
let
you
you
know,
transfer
and
share
rich
functionality
like
that.
C
You
know,
you
know
even
past
when
we
first
get
the
ability
to
do
fungible
and
non
multiple
token
grants
or
sharing
of
staking
or
distributed
governments
or
all
those
kinds
of
things
or
stuff
that
are
protocols.
We
want
people
to
be
able
to
focus
on
that
and
not
worry
about
okay.
So
now
how
am
I
going
to
bake
that
particular
voting
algorithm
into
a
particular
crypto
we're
just
between
these
two
new
chains
that
are
novel
and
all
that
complexity
can
kind
of
evaporate?
If
you
get
the
right
level
of
abstraction,
can.
A
B
It's
not
as
simple
as
a
snippet
of
code.
It's
a
fairly
substantial
block
of
code
to
implement
the
IBC
system
that
you
know,
tender
mañana
gorrik
have
been
working
together
to
get
fully
the
initial
implementation
in
the
cosmos,
SDK
sort
of
fully
developed
and
the
binding
between
the
cosmos,
SDK
and
the
Agora
implementation.
Sort
of
a
lot
of
the
current
effort
with
block
chains
is
building
sort
of
frameworks
for
building
block
chains.
B
So
you
know
a
comparable
level
of
effort
will
probably
be
required
to,
for
instance,
at
IBC,
C's
or
two
parodies
substrate
framework,
but
once
you
have
that
in
substrate
you
can
support
it
everywhere.
Substrate
goes.
It
just
becomes
a
module
that
you
import,
it'll,
be
a
committal,
be
a
comparable
level
effort
to
implement
IBC
on
top
of
a
theory
and
2.0
Phase
two.
B
But
you
know,
like
I,
said:
there's
huge
Network
effects,
there's
a
there's,
an
ever-expanding
and
there's.
You
know
already
major
block
chains
with
finance
stacks
and
antara
and
iris.
In
addition
to
the
cosmos
hub
and
presumably
many
more
chains,
wench
IBC
exists
and
all
of
that
Network
sort
of
spins
up
together.
Let.
C
That's
a
high
level
way
to
think
of
it,
though
this
is
a
only
a
very
high
level
way
to
think
of.
It
is
for
two
chains
to
talk
to
each
other.
They
have
something
that's
not
as
hard
as
but
similar
to
a
light
client
for
the
other
chain
so
that
they
can
validate
the
proofs
on
the
other
channel
right
and
so
so
each
chain
is,
you
know.
The
real
layers
between
the
two
chains
are
submitting
proof
of
progress
on
the
other
chain
that
gets
valid.
C
You
know
that
gets
validated
on
the
counterparty
chain,
and
so
all
the
tender
bins
have
very
similar
proofs
and
and
the
actual
abstraction
allows
for
it
to
be
slightly
more
abstract
than
that,
so
the
variants
of
tender
meant,
like
you
know,
hot
stuff
or
those
kinds
of
things.
Those
are
pretty
easy
to
map
between
something
that
has
a
very
different
tree
structure.
Okay,
that's
more
work!
That's
specific
to
you
know
similar
to
you
know,
getting
elements
of
a
light
working
to
be
able
to
talk
to
those
other
infrastructures,
and
so.
C
Similar
they
are
the
easier
that
is.
The
nice
thing
is
again
developers
on
all
these
platforms
can
be
agnostic
about
that.
You
have
to
do
it
once
to
be
able
to
talk
to
a
particular
kind
of
infrastructure
and
that
gets
shared
across
a
bunch
of
the
Deacons.
So
that's
hard
work.
It's
hard
to
get
right.
It
start
to
specify
right,
but
once
that's
done
a
lot
of
people
get
the
benefit.
Then.
C
So
so
I
have
three
or
four
interests
in
IBC.
You
know
the
first.
Is
it
abstracts
out
all
of
the
rich
expertise
that
you
know
primarily
from
our
perspective,
the
tenorman
folk
have
been
showing
about
being
able
to
connect
these
different
chains
and
it
abstracts
it
out.
Lets
us
leverage
that
to
build
our
higher
layers
of
application
on,
so
that
we
can
use
it
as
a
secure,
reliable,
authenticated,
etc.
Data
transport
between
chains
lucky
just
teleported
to
a
new
environment.
C
It
also
allows
bridging
to
these
other
functionalities
that
are
totally
unrelated
to
our
chain.
Like
I
said
you
know,
credential,
validation
or
proof
of
location
or
a
view.
It
allows
bridging
to
private
chains
and
consortium
chains,
so
off
chain
assets
or
off
chain.
You
know
private
chains
that
companies
are
running
that
I
think
is
a
crucial,
crucial
future
element
for
the
growth
of
the
overall
blockchain
ecosystem,
the
the
folks
that
we
get
to
work
with
here.
C
You
know,
from
our
perspective,
you
know,
I
mean
I
could
call
out
specific
names,
Chris
goes
and
Jun,
and
those
folks
that
are
just
you
know
key
developers
inside
of
the
tender
mentor.
But
there's
a
commune
there's
a
larger
community
growing
of
people
on
other
chains
that
are
starting
to
pick
this
up
and
build
with
it
and
integrate
pieces
or
comment
on
ok,
now,
they're
starting
to
evaluate
the
security
of
the
particular
integration.
C
Make
sure
that
that
that
is,
you
know
and
can
be
deployed
in
a
federated
fashion
or
doesn't
have
single
points
of
failure
and
that
sort
of
thing.
So
there
is
a
you
know,
growing
community
out
there
there
is
a
biweekly
community
called
that
those
people
that
those
people
show
up
to
for
you
know
anyone
in
any
chain
in
any
ecosystem
modes
to
be
able
to
plug
together
with
this
stuff,
to
be
able
to
come
and
participate,
because
it's
very
much
you
know
chain
and
consensus
and
etc.
Agnostic.
You
know
an
attempt
to
make.
A
B
The
main
teams
right
now,
but
like
one
of
the
things
that
we've
been
doing,
you
know-
and
we
learned
how
to
do
all
of
this
when
we
want
in
the
in
the
cosmos
hub
launch,
which
is
you
know,
we
would
stand
up
these
test
nets
and
bring
in
people
in
the
community
just
so
that
they
could
get
familiar
and
start
banging
the
tires
of
the
of
the
implementation.
It
helps
us
figure
out
where
there
are
gaps,
so
we
I
think
about
I
guess
it
was
probably
it
was
early.
B
What
Jack
did
last
week
was
run
the
first
experiments
with
actually
building
a
network
topology
and
like
he
set
up
a
hub
chain.
He
encouraged
people
to
connect
to
it.
Those
people
also
open
connections
with
with
others.
With
you
know,
other
people
who
set
up
chains
we
actually
had
like
a
little
mini
cosmos
run
from
that
experience.
We
like
we
also
got
a
pretty
keen
sense
of
what
were
the
gaps
in
our
current
implementation
and
it's
it's
a
lot
of.
B
We
will
then
be
able
to
start
setting
sort
of
priorities
for
week
week
what
we're
calling
game
of
zones,
which
is
an
incentivized
network
that
is
designed
to
allow
you
know,
operators
of
the
system
to
kind
of
go
to
the
next
step.
One
of
the
things
that
I
like
most
about
building
blockchain
software
is
it's
not
just
about.
You
know:
building
cool
software
and
like
interesting
functionality.
You
actually
have
to
teach
this
like
kind
of
like
decentralized
community
of
people.
C
Worth
noting
that
that
test
environment,
the
jack
set
up
some
of
the
people
that
are
getting
a
lot
of
people
that
are
connecting
to
it
are,
you
know
not
the
original
developers,
it's
people
outside
in
the
community
that
have
expertise
on
on
their
side
of
running
validators,
are
connecting
these
systems
or
have
you
that
are
that
are
participating
in
the
first.
You
know
if
you
will
QA
chain
rounds
of
this
stuff,
which
is
pre
game
as
up,
and
so
so
it's
the
the
the
people
that
are
starting
connected.
This
stuff
is
already
growing
nice.
Okay,.
B
I'm
expecting
to
do
game
of
zones
sometime,
you
know
in
January
or
February
of
next
year
and
to
have
sort
of
a
MVP,
stable
implementation
sort
of
around
that
time
frame,
but
then
there's
a
whole
there's
a
whole
governance
process,
whole
prototyping
of
early
connected
zones
process
that
is
sort
of
difficult
to
foresee
how
long
it's
going
to
take
to
fully
land
I.
Also.
C
Want
to
go
in
some
sense,
I'm
going
to
comment
on
that,
because
I
want
to
go
back
to
something
you
said
earlier
of
Cosmos
is
building
the
the
the
block,
the
Internet
of
blockchains
or
whatever,
and
it's
important
to
note
that
no
cosmos
is
helping
to
enable
an
Internet
of
blockchain.
All
of
us
are
building
that
and,
and
and
some
of
you
know,
the
focus
of
getting
all
the
cosmos
owns
up
huge,
very
valuable
step
forward.
C
But
concurrently
with
that,
you
know,
there's
also
talking
to
non
cosmos
chains
or
non-tender
machines,
and
there
re
songs
that
are
starting
to
work
on
look
at
how
to
do
IBC
integration.
So
the
you
know
in
some
sense
the
real
goal
is
that
is,
is
an
environment
where
you
know-
and
this
is
not
in
the
time
frame
that
we're
not
here
but
the
real
goal.
A
B
You
look
at
like
what
the
core
value
of
of
interoperability
is
from
these
communities.
Is
it's
a
form
of
permissionless
extensibility?
Is
you
know
I
think
finance
has
like
very
has
a
has
a
has
a
very
focused
roadmap
on
what
they
want
to
do
with
their
blockchain.
What
what
is
the
problems
in
their
ecosystem
that
they
want
to
solve,
but
they'd
also
love
to
have
a
little
bit
of
uncontrolled
experimentation
and
by
implementing
something
like
IBC.
B
My
my
impression
of
most
of
the
bigger
zones
on
the
cosmos
ecosystem
is
they're,
just
sort
of
kicking
the
time
you
know
they're
exploring
IBC
they
kind
of
want
to
see
how
it
gets
momentum,
they're
not
participating
necessarily
in
this
like
early
maturation
stage,
I
think
they
kind
of
looked
around
with
what
we
were
doing
there
like.
This
seems
fairly
saying
we'll
come
back
to
this.
When
it's
mature,
good.
A
And
sort
of
wrapping
up
the
podcast
here
looking
forward
I
guess
we
were
at
the
end
of
the
year
and
I
guess
looking
forward
to
2020
what
is
something
that
you
guys
hope
hope
to
be
accomplished
or
hope
gets
accomplished
in
in
this
space,
whether
it
be
for
cosmos
in
tender,
mint
or
whether
it
be
for
agaric
or
just
a
space
in
general?
What's
something
that
you
guys
hope
to
be
accomplished
next
year?
Well,.
C
My
GG
I,
hope
to
you
know,
have
our
platform
out
in
maintenance
for
lots
of
people
to
build
from
an
IPC
point
of
view.
I
very
much
want
to
you
know
our
systems
great
at
creating
new
digital
assets.
It's
great
to
creating
new
markets
and
mechanics
I
want
to
be
able
to
take
those
digital
assets
and
go
sell
it
on
a
chain
on
some
other
chain.
Over
IBC
I
want
to
be
able
to
take
assets
and
functionality
from
those
other
chains
bring
it
onto
ours.