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From YouTube: Interoperability Innovations: Addressing the Cross Chain Challenge Presented at the BiTA Symposium
Description
Dean Tribble, CEO of Agoric, presents "Innovations for Interoperability Using Agoric Tools" to the Blockchain in Transporation Alliance (BiTA) membership.
Transferring digital assets cross-chain is a challenge that is difficult to navigate. Agoric is working to address this challenge and provide tools for developers to build dApps that transact and interact cross-chain. To BiTA membership, Dean poses the question, "What will interoperability help you build?"
Learn more in this talk, visit our docs, and feel free to share what you want to build.
https://agoric.com/documentation/
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A
So
I
I
will
jump
right
in
on
some
use
cases
here
and
thank
you
so
much
for
having
me
here.
I
presented
last
year
about
use
cases
and
about
what
are
the
relevant
use.
Cases
for
blockchain
and,
and
one
of
the
key
elements
of
that
is
just
how
much
we
need
multiple
chains
and
cross
chain.
So
I'm
going
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
that
and
this
will
go
a
little
more
technically
deep
than
some
of
the
other
presentations.
A
So
the
first
is
sort
of
the
set
of
blockchains
that
we
talked
about
are
like
driver,
credential
verification.
These
were
focused
on
freight
right
driver,
credential
verification
where
I
don't
need
to
know
the
details
of
the
driver,
I'm
handing
natural
gas
off
to,
but
our,
but
I
sure
need
to
know
that
that
they're
qualified
to
to
manage
it
chain
of
custody
right.
You
know
crucial
low-hanging.
Fruit,
for
any
kind
of
freight
scenario,
is
high
integrity,
high
assurance
chain
of
custody.
A
A
So
people
can
get
their
money
out
in
local
currency
for
international
shipments
paying
for
having
automated
payments
so
that
when
custody
changes,
we
automatically
issue
payment
out
to
some
of
the
recipients,
at
least
partial
payment
or
having
accounts
receivables
loans,
where
it
might
not
be
that
I,
as
a
shipper,
get
paid
directly
for
for
doing
my
part
of
a
multi-week
shipment.
But
I
can
take
accounts
receivable
so
that
I,
as
a
small
company,
can
have
cash
flow.
A
That
is
on
the
order
of
days
rather
than
on
the
order
of
months
for
getting
paid
for
the
work
that
my
company
does,
and
that
makes
it
easier
to
decentralize
and
so
forth.
Now
these
are
some
of
the
low-hanging
fruit
use
cases
we
talked
about
last
year
and
you've
already
heard
several
that
are
that
are
that
are
much
more
real
and
there's
been
an
astonishing
amount
of
progress
since
last
year
in
terms
of
real
actual
deployment
of
this
technology
stuff.
A
A
Similarly,
if
it's
a
credentialing
system,
it's
got
to
sit
near
the
credential
data.
That
is
all
very
private
data
that
I
want
to
disclose
and
permission
very,
very
carefully,
and
so
privacy
is
a
crucial
element.
Governance
who
gets
to
decide
who's
in
who
gets
to
decide.
Who
can
see
the
data
how
it
gets
analyzed
what
kinds
of
transactions
are
allowed?
All
those
kinds
of
things
are
different
for
different
use
cases,
even
when
those
use
cases
link
together
and
connect
with
each
other
and
finally,
specific
capabilities.
A
You'll
hear
lots
of
different
models
of
how
one
might
build
the
smart
contracts
that
go
all
this
kind
of
thing
together.
We
have
a
very
strong
understanding
of
that,
which
I'll
tell
you
a
little
bit
about
in
a
moment,
but
that's
one
of
the
key
elements
that
differentiates
these
systems,
whether
it's
high
frequency,
low
value
transactions
for
games
or
low
frequency,
high
value
transactions
for
banks
doing
for
forex
between
each
other.
So
what
are
the
challenges?
A
So,
let's,
let's
assume
for
the
moment,
I'll,
go
a
little
bit
more
into
use
cases
later,
but
I
want
to
step
up
for
a
moment
and
look
at
what
are
the
challenges
right?
These
cross-chain
use
cases
just
coming
up
with
them
last
year
was
a
challenge.
Everyone
was
focused
on
private
chain
in
order
to
solve
their
private
problem
that
they
have
with.
You
know
that
they
used
to
solve.
A
That
would
that's
that's
one
of
the
challenges
that
that
everyone
here
is
starting
to
meet.
The
second
is
technology
development,
and
most
of
my
talk
is
going
to
be
about
that,
and
so
I'll
dig
deep
into
what's,
interestingly
new
and
hard
about
linking
blockchains
and
doing
interoperability
between
blockchains
and
then
the
final
challenge
is
one
that
we
now
face
going
forward
over
the
next
couple
of
years,
which
is
how
do
we
get
this
deployed?
What's
the
value
prop
of
deployment?
A
Okay,
so,
first
a
little
bit
of
background
and
I'll
go
through
this
very,
very
quickly.
The
the
agor
you
know,
who
is
the
gork
right?
Agorik,
was
founded
by
pioneers
in
the
space
of
distributed
transactions
distributed
systems.
So
I
I,
for
example,
worked
on
the
first
production:
smart
contract
back
in
1989
long
before
blockchain
mark
miller,
our
chief
scientist
wrote
the
eugoric
open
systems
papers
in
88
that
really
articulated
software
agents
building
and
participating
in
markets,
and
we've
done
several
other
things.
A
So,
first,
what's
a
smart
contract,
and
since,
since
I
talked
about
our
background
in
smart
contract,
that's
an
important
element
to
make
sure
that
we're
all
on
the
same
page,
about
and
and
for
the
last
30,
some
odd
years
since
before
blockchain,
a
smart
contract
to
us
is
an
arrangement
between
multiple
parties,
a
contract-like
arrangement
that
we
can
express
in
software.
We
can
express
in
code
where
the
behavior
of
that
code,
the
behavior
of
that
program,
enforces
the
terms
of
the
contract.
Now
I
said
this
predates
blockchain
right.
We
did
this
with
cryptographic.
A
Protocols
between
machines,
long
before
blockchain
and
smart
contracts
are
upwards
of
a
trillion
dollars
or
more
in
market
gap,
depending
on
which
what
you
look
at
so
ebay
is
a
smart
contract.
Buyers
and
sellers
are
completing
a
sale
transaction
enforced
by
software
that
is
running
at
ebay
that
handles
automated.
You
know:
provisioning
of
delivery,
automated
payment
dispute
resolution
and
and
and
a
tiny
fraction
of
transactions
get
escalated
to
humans
to
sort
out
right
and
so
ebay,
paypal,
venmo,
airbnb,
uber
and
lyft
much
of
amazon,
high
frequency
trading
and
brokerage
houses.
A
Those
are
all
third
parties
being
able
to
coordinate
through
a
trust
you
know,
or
independent
parties
being
able
to
coordinate
through
a
trusted
third
party.
So
what
does
blockchain
bring
to
that
right?
What
blockchain
brings
is
multiple,
independent
computers
that
are
administrated
differently,
that
are
administrated
in
different
administration
zones
and
in
different
jurisdictions.
Now
realize
this
is
the
gold
standard
of
blockchain
right.
So
now
I've
got
a
set
of
machines
that
are
all
independent.
A
That
cannot
be
compromised
by
any
one
individual
organization
that
vote
to
agree
with
cryptographic,
technology,
high
assurance
and
so
forth
on
the
data.
So
what's
the
package,
the
order,
events,
the
choices
who
am
I
delivering
that
package
to
and
did
it
get
there
and
did
it
get
there
before
after
I
got
paid
and
the
results
of
computation
when
we
add
smart
contracts
to
it?
A
A
I
needed
freight
to
verify
that
the
driver
I'm
handing
off
to
is
trained
in
liquid
natural
gas.
So
I
can
safely
give
him
this.
Given
this
give
him
this
this
cargo,
a
brokerage
house,
needs
for
their
traders
to
be
able
to
prove
that
they
have
training
and
assurance
for
handling
vanguard
funds
without
revealing
all
the
details
of
the
traders
and
thus
allowing
their
competitors
to
analyze
and
track
the
trading
patterns.
Inside
of
this
broker
checks
right
and
it's
the
same
training
certification.
It's
the
same
authentication
process.
A
Similarly,
accounts
receivables,
loans
versus
freight,
very,
very
much
the
same
problem
as
accounts
receivables,
loan
against
residuals
on
a
music
contract
right
proof
of
location
for
freight.
You
know
in
order
to
do
a
detention
use
case,
I
would
want
to
use
the
same
technology
on
a
zone
that
is
specialized
on
a
blockchain,
that's
specialized
for
proof
of
location.
I'd
want
to
use
the
same
technology
to
be
able
to
to
to
control
the
sales
regions
for
for
for
concert
tickets
in
a
in
a
ticketing
venue
and
so
forth,
and
so
making
those.
A
So
that's
one
of
the
the
other
drivers
that
a
lot
of
people
aren't
aware
of
is
when
they
think
about
their
use
cases
the
the
services
they
need,
that
they
need
to
trust
that
they
need.
The
reliability
in
are
much
more
general
than
one
particular
vertical
okay.
So
what
do
we
mean
by
interoperability?
A
In
a
remember,
I
said
that
it's
agreement
between
machines,
so
this
stack
of
machines
on
the
left
is
just
a
set
of
machines.
I
happen
to
pick
the
igor
chain,
but
it's
the
same
for
most
for
for,
for
all
the
actually
cryptographically
strong
chains
out
there,
where
there,
those
machines
are
going
to
agree
and
there's
a
thing.
We
call
a
light
client
in
the
in
in
jargon,
which
is
not
verifying
each
and
every
transaction.
A
It's
able
to
verify
that
all
of
the
machines
involved
in
that
blockchain
agree
that
they
executed
consistently.
So
I
didn't
check
your
credentials.
I
checked
that
all
of
the
machines
involved
all
the
100
machines
that
might
be
participating
in
the
private
blockchain
or
the
consortium
blockchain
to
do.
A
Okay
and
that's
the
thing,
that's
novel
and
that's
what
makes
this
hard
in
a
way
that
prior
systems
to
blockchain
were
not
hard
right,
but
it's
very
analogous
to
tcp,
you
know
and
https
and
so
forth,
and
so
you
know
what
is
it
so
so
I'll
focus
on
a
particular
interoperability
protocol,
ibc,
the
inter
blockchain
communication
protocol
and
that's
really
messaging.
You
know
design
for
messaging
among
chains
and
individual
machines.
It's
designed
for
broad
adoption.
So
it's
absolutely
blockchain
neutral
and
there
are
indeed
multiple
implementations
for
different
blockchains
happening.
It's
all
open
sourced.
A
Is
it
really
captures
and
abstracts
out
the
best
practices
that
people
have
developed
across
a
wide
variety
of
efforts
to
be
able
to
do
blockchain
interoperability,
so
between
ethereum
and
bitcoin
between
you
know,
cosmos
zones
polka
dot,
everything
else,
okay,
so
it
is
a
layered
protocol.
Just
like
you
know,
tcp,
if
you're
familiar
with
that
right.
A
A
On
top
of
it,
so
we
call
we
call
the
the
bottom
layer,
the
tau,
the
transport
of
packets
and
data
and
resources,
authentication
and
ordering
those,
and
then
there
is
the
application
protocol
and
that's
the
permissionless
extensible
thing
that
each
application
might
grow
their
own,
so
transfer
of
money,
proof
of
location,
chain,
of
custody,
loan
information,
beta
standards.
You
know
every
everything
that
people
might
want
to
be
able
to
securely
and
in
a
trustworthy
fashion,
share
is
done
via
is
done
as
an
application
protocol.
The
same
way
that
our
communication
protocols
happen
above
tcp.
A
A
My
talking
to
you
right
now
happens
over
a
tech
stack
that
is
equally
complicated
and
yet
the
way
you
all
got
here
was
by
pushing
a
button
and
then
fumbling
and
restarting
your
computer
and
all
that
sort
of
thing,
but
nonetheless,
fundamentally
you're
pushing
a
button
and
all
sorts
of
magic,
interesting
protocol
for
resource
management
and
so
forth
happened
underneath.
This
is
one
of
the
diagrams
for
the
tau
layer
of
ibc.
That,
indeed
I
mentioned,
there's
a
light,
client
verification
and
packets
going
and
networks
voting,
and
all
that
sort
of
thing.
A
But
fundamentally
developers
can
build
amazing
stuff.
On
top
of
this,
without
understanding
this
level
of
detail
and
and
users
will
be
able
to
use
it
by,
you
know,
taking
their
package
scanner
and
scanning
a
package,
and
lo
and
behold
it
goes
from
their
chain
of
custody
thing
out
to
an
accounts,
receivable
loan
and
suddenly
more
cash
becomes
available
for
them
to
be
able
to
pay
their
their
their
their
staff
right.
Okay,
so
what's
the
status
of
ibc
ibc
is?
Is
you
know?
One
of
the
main
things
about
ibc
is
it's.
A
It
is
the
primary
loosely
coupled
blockchains
or
interop
protocol
that
that
allows
radically
different
blockchains
to
cooperate
with
each
other
in
a
sound
and
coherent
fashion
that
we
can
have
assurance
of
the
security
of.
So
there
is
a
complete
in
this
case,
primarily
english
language
specification
available.
It
has
been
implemented
for
the
cosmos.
A
A
A
So
it's
an
adversarial
test
net
with
you
know,
160
somewhat
different
chains
and
validators
and
participants,
and
you
know
and
and
different
chains
that
are
all
competing
with
each
other
to
attack
but
use
the
network
at
the
same
time
send
through
high
volumes
and
transactions.
You
know
try
to
compromise
the
the
security
of
the
monetary
transactions
that
are
built
on
the
money
and
resource
protocols
and
so
forth,
and
it
literally
just
wrapped
up
so
ibc
is
heading
towards
production.
It
will
eventually
get
the
vote
for
incorporation
into
the
cosmos
network.
A
People
are
working
on
bridging
it
to
other
networks,
as
I
mentioned,
so
this
stuff
is
heading
towards
production
and
and
anticipated
this
year,
and
you
know
the
hyper
ledger:
borough
has
a
has
tasks
open
to
be
able
to
integrate
it
into
hyper
ledger.
So
it
is
absolutely
something
that
that
we
expect
to
see
hit
the
world
okay,
so
I've
got
one
more
minute
here.
A
Let
me
wrap
up
with
the
the
last
set
of
challenges,
that's
sort
of
addressing
the
technical
challenges
that
mostly
you
know
you
guys
don't
have
to
deal
with,
but
the
deployment
challenge
we
talked
about
the
use
case
challenge
the
deployment
challenge
is
the
next
one.
You
know
interop
is
totally
useless
until
there's
someone
else
to
interoperate
with
right.
When
phones
first
came
out,
someone
was
quoted
as
saying
you
know
I
can.
I
can
envision
a
world
where
they'll
be
one
of
these
phones
in
every
town
in
the
country.
A
You
can
use
it
so
that
it's
safe
to
pick
any
particular
infrastructure
for
your
private
chain,
because
with
good
interop
you'll
be
able
to
bridge
to
the
rest
of
the
world
and
be
able
to
use
those
other
services
in
an
application
right.
So
it's
it's
a
valuable
thing
to
be
able
to
commit
to
to
enable
innovation
and
pivoting
and
growth
going
forward.
But
a
key
thing
is
build
on
the
tech
stacks
that
actually
have
cryptographic
integrity.
A
That
actually
have
you
know
like
like
tendermint,
even
for
enterprise
like
tendermint,
where
the
voting
that
happens
has
an.
It
has
a
cryptographic,
audit
log
that
that
has
has
been
you
know,
tested
in
security
battle,
tested
for
real
monetary
transactions
and
so
forth,
some
of
the
enterprise
systems,
and
they
don't
do
that
yet
so
they
need
to
be
pushed
to
cross
that
that
line.
So
it's
not
that
just
that
your
business
that
deployed
a
private
chain
trusts
their
system.
It's
that
your
business
can
show
the
security
and
audit
trail,
so
another
business
out
there.
A
So
for
all
these
use
cases,
at
least
at
some
point,
step
back
and
think
about
what
it
would
mean
when
it
was
connected
to
the
rest
of
the
to
the
rest
of
the
inter-chain
world
right
and
then.
Finally,
when
you
deploy
deploy
in
such
a
way
that
interop
is
enabled
deploy
such
that
you
know
three
months
from
now,
when
you
want
to
connect
that
supply
chain
to
somebody
else's
supply
chain,
that's
going
to
supply
some
other
part
of
your
system.
A
So
I'll
close
with
you
know
what
we
really
need:
a
more
vibrant
world,
a
more
vibrant
economy
of
connected
systems,
rather
than
more
walled
gardens
right.
So
so
so
focus
on
not
you
know,
start
with
a
private
chain
start
with
a
consortium
consortium
chain.
That's
great!
They
need
private
data,
but
really
think
about
how
you
connect
to
the
rest
of
the
world.
Learn,
ibc
or
other
infrared
protocols.
Come
to
the
upcoming
hackathon
in
july.
Be
able
to
use
it,
deploy
real
use
cases
with
it,
learn
the
igori
system.
A
So
you
can
build
the
next
generation
of
smart
contracts,
of
course,
and
integrate
into
this
world
the
beta
standards
you
can
that
can
help
all
of
us
here
coordinate
in
various
ways.
So,
thank
you
all
very
much
for
your
time.
Sorry
for
running
a
minute
here
over,
but
we'll
take
a
couple
of
questions.
I
hope.
B
Awesome,
thank
you
so
much
dean.
I
always
love
the
energy
you
bring
to
the
table.
My
phone
has
been
blowing
up
with
messages
saying
you
know.
What's
in
his
coffee,
tim
marsh
from
gs1
had
a
it's
more
of
a
statement
than
a
question,
but
maybe
you
can
elaborate
on
it.
You
know
tim
says
that
you
know
ibc
is
the.
Is
that
thing
that
so
many
of
us
have
wanted
for
ledger
ecosystem
to
ledger,
ecosystem
communication.
B
A
So,
as
I
say,
I
expect
ibc
to
be
deployed
in
production
soon.
You
know
this
year.
There
is,
there
is
a
said.
There's
a
hackathon
sf
blockchain
week
has
the
unitized
conference
and
hackathon.
That
starts
in
july
and
there'll
be
a
continuing
num
set
of
of
of
sort
of
stunning
deployments
of
interop.
You
know
with
with
both
ibc,
but
also,
for
example,
the
ethereum
to
cosmos
bridge
just
got
rolled
out
by
by
summa
one
and
keith.
So
there's
lots
of
interop
activity
happening.
A
People
have
sort
of
you
know
crystallized
that
they
need
to
do
this
and
crystallize
that
yeah
there
isn't
going
to
be
one
winner,
any
more
than
there's
one
currency
or
one
database
right.
You
know
the
the
world
needs
multiple
standards
there
for
a
variety
of
reasons,
some
of
which
I
touched
on
here,
and
so
I
believe
that
that
we've
now
crossed
a
technical
threshold.
Such
people
can
start
really
to
do.
A
You
know
real
proof
of
concept
systems
with
this
stuff
and
be
able
to
rely
on
it
getting
to
the
point
of
production
where
you
can
have
real
production
systems
with
you
know,
multiple
different
blockchains
communicating
with
each
other
for
money,
transfer
and
and
supply
chain
and
so
forth.
So
so
I
think
it's
it's
you
know.
People
are
starting
to
really
internalize
at
a
time
has
come,
but
again
with
that
first
wave
of
blockchain
enthusiasm,
it's
really
easy
to
think.
Oh,
it
can
solve
all
these
problems.
B
Awesome
really
great
points.
Last
week
at
our
june
3rd
event,
we
had
one
of
the
technology
leaders
from
custom
and
border
protection
agency
on
board.
Where
do
you
see
the
role
of
regulators
on
on
this
I
mean:
are
they
doing
enough?
Are
they
not
doing
enough?
What
what's?
What's
your
take
on
it?
As
someone?
That's
been
working
with
smart
contracts
since
the
late
80s
right.
A
So
the
answer
are
they
doing
enough?
Are
they
not
doing?
Enough
is
of
course,
yes,
I've
been
pleasantly
surprised.
You
know
I've
been
sort
of
both
appalled
on
sometimes
and
mostly
pleasantly
surprised,
on
the
care
with
which
a
lot
of
regulators
are
approaching
this
stuff,
the
you
know,
and
the
thing
is
this-
touches
all
spectrum
of
things.
So
it's
easy
to
look
at
the
you
know
the
flare
and
flame
about
icos,
but
but
but
I'm
a
big
fan
of
strong
decentralization
that
works
well
with
existing
businesses.
A
Right
I
mean
I
was
delighted
at
the
in
some
sense,
at
the
at
the
statistics
around
us
freight,
where
90
of
the
packages
transit
on
a
truck
of
a
company
that
has
10
or
fewer
trucks
right.
It
is
astonishingly,
more
decentralized
and
promoting
a
small
and
medium-sized
business
to
be
able
to
really
strongly
and
safely
collaborate
with
each
other
across
national
boundaries
across
use
cases
with
large
companies
in
a
way
that
they
really
have
you
know,
can
have
high
assurance
and
integrity.
All
of
those
are
really
exciting.
A
Most
of
those
don't
require
regulation
at
all.
They
just
require
us
to
do
stuff.
All
of
the
things
that
raise
our
assurance,
you
know
there's
some
level
of
wow.
I
can
get
more
more
tracking
of
certain
kinds
of
things,
but
all
of
us
need
that
for
higher
assurance
business
for
look
for
reducing
the
cost
of
trust
right
for
if
I
can
have
high
assurance
that
I
can
easily
hand
off
unsafe
cargos,
it's
a
lot
easier
for
me
to
manage
doing
unsafe
cargos,
which
means,
if
they're,
actually
really
valuable.
A
Suddenly
I'm
able
to
share
and
manage
them
and
have
more
customers
for
this
stuff
that
is
otherwise
expensive
and
hard
to
manage,
and
I
have
increased
the
value
for
everybody
right.
So
so,
there's
all
these
areas
where,
where,
where
just
increasing
the
assurance,
both
simplifies
systems
and
enables
more
collaboration
with
more
parties-
and
you
know
if
you
can
make
collaboration
safer,
you
get
more
collaboration
in
the
world
and
that's
a
and
that's
a
that's
a
a
worthy
goal.
From
both
a
personal
and
a
business
perspective.