►
From YouTube: Arlington Reads | George Saunders
Description
George Saunders and Library Director Diane Kresh about Saunders's book "A Swim in a Pond in the Rain," and his Freedom Reads introduction to "Dubliners."
A
Thank
you
all
for
being
here
for
this
exciting
evening
with
George
Saunders
I'm,
Diane,
kresh
I'm,
director
of
Arlington
Public
Library,
and
this
is
the
Arlington
reads:
program
which
we've
been
running
since
2006.
I
I
had
spent
a
long
career
at
another
institution
and
when
I
came
to
Arlington
in
2006.
The
one
thing
I
wanted
to
do
was
to
create
an
author
series
and
we've
done
that
and
we've
done
it
with
all
of
you
and
the.
A
The
staff
has
been
terrific
and
we
have
been
helped
every
step
of
the
way
by
the
friends
of
Arlington
Library,
which
is
still
one
of
the
best
deals
in
town
for
advocacy
and
for
supporting
the
library,
the
book
sales
next
week,
yay
and
without
the
book,
sale
and
the
generosity
of
all
of
you
sitting
here
this
evening.
Programs
like
these
do
not
happen
because
we
do
not
get
funding
from
the
county
have
not
ever
for
programming
that
includes
summer
reading
program
evenings
like
this
Etc.
A
So
it
is
entirely
due
to
your
generosity
and
the
good
work
of
the
friends
of
Arlington
Library,
who
are
our
steady
Partners
in
this
endeavor?
Let's
see
the
book
signing
will
happen
later
this
evening.
I'll
provide
instructions
for
how
that's
going
to
work
at
the
close
of
the
interview,
we're
joined
by
one
more
page
book
this
evening,
independent
bookstore,
they
love
us.
We
love
them.
We
love
independent,
bookstores
yay
and
they
will
be
working
with
us
next
month.
A
Early
next
month,
I
think
the
first
week
of
November
when
we
host
Barbara
Kingsolver,
and
we
will
be
discussing
her
latest
book,
demon,
Copperfield
and
I
hope.
I've
finished
it
by
then
it's
it's,
it's
terrific
if
it
was
just
released
in
audio
by
the
way
earlier
this
week,
and
so
it's
it's.
A
terrific
read,
take
a
minute,
please
to
silence
your
phones,
I
used
to
say
electronic
devices,
but
let's
face
it's.
Just
phones
and
recording
this
event
is
strictly
prohibited.
A
So
this
is
the
final
event
in
this
year's
Arlington
reads:
series
which
was
called
rebooting
the
classics
and
it
was
hosted
in
partnership
with
freedom,
reads
a
first
of
its
kind
organization
that
supports
the
efforts
of
people
in
prison
to
imagine
new
possibilities
for
their
lives.
Its
origin
story
is
compelling
from
the
freedom
reads:
website
quote
alone:
in
solitary
confinement
a
teenager
called
out
to
the
men
in
the
hole
with
him.
A
Centers
can
experience
community
and
new
possibilities
and
I'm
pleased
to
announce
that
we
are
working
very
closely
with
the
Detention
Center
to
bring
the
freedom
reads:
curated
collections
collection
to
the
Detention
Center.
We
had
a
terrific
event
with
Dwayne
Betts
there
a
couple
of
weeks
ago.
It
was
a
Real
Love
Fest
between
bets
and
what
he's
doing
and
his
experience
and
the
men
and
women
there
who
are
writing
and
trying
to
express
themselves
and
looking
forward
to
when
they're
no
longer
incarcerated.
A
One
such
author
in
the
collection
of
Freedom
reads
is
our
guest
George
Saunders,
who
will
reintroduce
James
Joyce's
groundbreaking
collection
of
short
stories
Dubliners?
What
is
a
classic?
Why
do
some
authors
and
Classics
endure
While
others
Fade
Into
Obscurity
do
Classics
endure
because
their
stories
critique
both
the
past
and
the
present.
Do
they
last
because
each
time
we
come
to
them,
we
experience
them
in
ways
seasoned
by
life
and
personal
experience.
A
Why
do
many
Classics
end
up
unchallenged
and
Banned
Book
lists?
George
Saunders
is
the
author
of
several
collections
of
short
stories
such
as
10th
of
December
and
essays.
His
lone
novel
Lincoln
in
the
Bardo
won
the
booker
prize
and
the
Audi
audiobook
of
the
year
in
a
swim
in
a
pond
in
the
rain
published
in
2021,
Saunders
guides
The
Reader
through
seven
classic
Russian
short
stories
he's
been
teaching
for
20
years
as
a
professor
for
the
prestigious
Syracuse
University
graduate
MFA
creative
writing
program
paired
with
stories
by
Russian,
Masters,
Chekhov,
treganyev,
Tolstoy
and
Google.
A
These
essays
are
intended
for
anyone
interested
in
how
fiction
works
and
why
it's
more
relevant
than
ever
in
these
turbulent
times,
The
Collection
is
a
literary
master
class
on
what
makes
great
stories
work,
how
to
become
both
a
better
writer
and
reader,
and
what
stories
tell
us
about
how
to
live.
His
latest
collection
of
short
stories
Liberation
day
was
just
published.
A
A
Well,
I
mentioned
that,
in
my
praise
of
the
the
friends
I
got
my
latest
copy
of
the
portable
Joyce
through
a
friend's
book
sale.
So,
yes,
it
is
possible
to
get
great
things
at
the
Friends
book,
sale.
D
A
His
Edition
it's
it's,
but
we
can
talk
about
that
later.
All
right,
so.
A
It
has
been
yeah
all
right,
so
we're
going
to
spend
time
on
this
book
tonight.
The
the
Russians
and
I'd
like
to
start
with
just
what
was
the
impetus
for
putting
this
in
book
form
you've
been
teaching
for
20
years.
You
were
influenced
heavily
by
Tobias
Wolff,
and
so
why
the
book
why
the
Russians?
Why
these
stories
well.
B
I
had
done
this
monster
tour
for
Lincoln,
and
the
Bardo
and
I
took
some
time
off
from
teaching
and
I
went
back
in
the
first
class.
You
know
a
few
teachers,
you
know
that
feeling
you
did
a
pretty
good
job
and
this
the
kids
were
getting
it.
You
know
and
there's
a
little.
B
You
know
Chalk
in
the
air
and
you're
like
yeah,
that
was
nice
and
and
it
sort
of
occurred
to
me
that
if
I
didn't
write
down
what
I
knew
about
the
Russian
stories,
what
actually
what
we
knew
as
a
group,
you
know
many
generations
of
students,
then
that
would
just
be
gone.
You
know,
and
it
struck
me
well,
that's
kind
of
sad
and
also
that
that
you
know
when
you
start
out.
B
As
a
writer
you're,
at
least
in
my
day
the
idea
was
to
get
a
teaching
job
quick
and
then
neglect
it
that
was
kind
of
the
idea.
You
know
yeah,
you
could
just
you
could
just
sit
at
my
feet
and
while
I
collect
the
checks,
but
then,
of
course,
when
you
do
it,
it's
a
such
a
labor
of
love
and
it
became
kind
of
the
most
really
one
of
the
most
important
things
in
my
life
and
I
kind
of
feel
like
the
stories
May
last
or
they
may
not.
B
Who
knows,
but
you
influence
one
person
that
person
goes
out
influences
20,
and
so
it
was
kind
of
a
whatever
I
am
late
to
midlife,
mid
to
late
life,
attempt
to
kind
of
just
pay
a
little
bit
of
an
homage
to
the
these
beautiful
hours,
I
spent
in
the
classroom
and,
of
course,
I
thought.
Oh
I'll,
just
type
my
notes
up
that'll
be
really
quick,
you
know,
and
no
you
can't
well.
A
B
Were
the
ones
that
taught
the
best
over
the
years
and
the
benefit
of
teaching
in
class
for
20
years?
Is
you
kind
of
know
like?
Oh?
This
will
be
great,
this
or
and
also
kind
of
they're
going
to
hate
this
and
after
a
while,
you
can
kind
of
use
that,
like
that
turgenia
was
always
a
buzz
kill
in
the
in
the
class.
So
we
did
we'd
been
you
know
three
weeks
in
and
they
were
starting
to
trust
me
and
they'd
come
in
and
you
can
see
they
had
a
certain
stiffness
like.
B
Oh
you
know,
Saunders
has
lost
it,
and
so
then
part
of
that
class
became
slowly
persuading
them
to
look
a
little
deeper.
They
didn't
have
to
like
the
story,
but
to
kind
of
say
well,
let's
give
them
the
benefit
of
the
doubt
and
and
also
let's
read
that
story
not
to
judge
it
but
to
steal
from
it.
E
B
Know
to
imbibe
it
basically
so
20
years
of
doing
that
you
can
kind
of
see
what
the
pivotal
stories
were.
So
I
just
plucked
those
ones
out,
and
there
are
check
off
stories
that
are
probably
greater
than
the
ones
I
haven't.
But
there's
that's.
Those
two
are
really
great
to
teach
from
that
was
the
Criterion
yeah.
A
B
Have
great
instincts
I
had
about
10.
and
lady
with
pet
dog
was
one
of
them
and
it
was
almost
too
good
yeah
you
could
you
can
praise
that
story
all
day
and
all
night,
which
is
useful,
but
then
you'd
have
three
checkups
and
also
at
one
point
I
said:
well,
how
long
will
this
book
be
and
it
was
like
980
Pages,
you
know
so
I
thought.
B
B
So
for
me,
that's
a
lot
of
just
rewriting
and
moving
things
around
on
index
cards,
and
then
there
was
one
day
where
I
had
to
cut
out
another
favorite
of
mine
that
Isaac
Babel,
who
is
it
really
a
19th
century,
but
I
was
going
to
make
an
exception
right
but
yeah,
so
it
was
fun.
It
was
just
I.
Have
a
writing
shed
up
at
our
house
and
I.
Just
was
up
there
day
after
day,
just
playing
with
this
stuff
and
trying
to
find
the
spine.
So.
A
So
it
appeal
it
appeared
to
me,
as
if
you
were
sort
of
you
were
deconstructing
the
shorts
like
what
makes
a
short
story,
a
good
story.
Yes,
now
I
did
read
an
interview
with
you,
where
maybe
a
mentor
of
yours
or
an
editor
said
well.
A
good
story
makes
me
want
to
read
the
next
line.
Yes
right
so,
but
you
you
have
an
engineering
background.
A
B
Well,
what
I
tried
you
know?
I
was
a
working
class
person
and
so
for
me,
literature
was
that
thing
I
couldn't
get.
You
know
I!
Oh
that
really
confused
me.
It
must
be
great.
So
when
I
finally
started,
writing
I
thought.
Oh
actually,
you
can
do
this
a
simpler
way,
which
is
to
say
start
at
the
beginning
of
the
story
with
a
basically
an
open,
mind,
blank
mind
then
read
it
and
see
where
you
are
at
the
end,
almost
like
a
roller
coaster.
It
spits
you
out
at
the
end.
B
What
are
you
feeling
whatever
you're
feeling
That's
the
basis
for
all
criticism?
You
know
we
tend
to
think
you
get
some
fancy
words
and
try
to
stick
them
on
there.
You
know,
but
the
more
genuine
approach,
whether
it's
your
story
or
somebody
else's,
is
to
say
what
did
I
go
through
then
the
idea
is,
if
you
can
notice
where
you
felt
a
strong,
positive
emotion
or
where
you
cried,
or
were
you
also
pulled
out
of
the
story,
you're
actually
stepping
into
the
Hall
of
criticism
right
there?
So
first
you
say
what
happened
to
me.
B
D
B
The
beauty
of
this
approach
is,
it
is
very
egalitarian.
Anybody
can
do
it
if
you
read
enough
stories,
there's
a
period
at
the
beginning,
where
you're
getting
your
legs
on
the
ground
but
feet
on
the
ground,
so
you're
getting
something
on
the
ground.
But
at
some
point
you
develop
the
confidence
and
then
you
can
trust
your
own
reading
and
that's
a
really
powerful
thing.
So
that's
kind
of
how
I
read
all
these
stories
and
I
just
kind
of
relayed
my
results.
B
You
know
in
the
hope
that
there
would
be
some
some
commonality
between
me
and
the
reader.
So.
B
Time
I
hate
it:
okay,
I
hate
it
I
used
to
do
that.
With
the
Hemingway
story,
you
can
do
cat
in
the
rain
and
you
can
do
Indian
Camp
Indian
Camp's
a
little.
It's
tough
to
teach
that
a
little
bit
because
it's
got
some
racist
language
and
it's
a
little
uncomfortable.
But
but
the
cat
in
the
rain
is
a
good
one.
So
we
just
handed
out
a
page
at
a
time
and
then
you
stop
them,
and
you
say:
okay,
you've
read
the
first
page
of
what
I'm
claiming
is
a
six
page
Masterpiece.
D
B
B
It's
painful
and
kind
of
dull
in
the
in
the
doing
of
it,
but
it
really
does
teach
you
to
sort
of
turn
your
mind
on
your
mind
and
see
what
you're
feeling
it
and
then
it's
a
great
story.
You
find
out
that
all
the
bowling
pins
that
you
threw
up
yourself
right
then
Ryder
knew
that
the
writer
knew
they
were
up
there
and
then
the
writer
catches
them
and
you're.
You
know
right.
A
Yeah,
the
the
methodology
that
you
presented
about
lots
of
detail
right
economically,
don't
introduce
something
if
you're
not
going
to
do
something
with
it
contrast
escalation,
those
those
those
terms
so
I
applied
them
to
a
story
of
yours.
That
I
read.
A
And
it
was
the
falls
and
I
lots
of
detail
about
both
of
the
characters.
It's
one
of
those
stories
where
you
think
oh
nothing's
really
going
to
happen,
and
then
bang
and
lots
of
detail
about
both
of
the
characters
they
they
know
each
other
but
they're,
not
friends
and
there's
lots
of
contrast
and
it
and
then
there's
tension
around
decision
you
know,
should
I
do
this
should
I
do
that
and
then
the
the
hero,
I
guess,
makes
a
a
decision
at
the
end.
A
B
B
I
call
it
the
subconscious,
I'm,
not
sure,
if
I'm
right
about
the
terminology
but
you're
tapping
into
something
that
supplies
your
taste
and
but
you're,
that's
what
craft
is
craft
is
getting
yourself
clear
access
to
whatever
this
other
thing
is
so
the
first
thing
I
tell
my
students
is
your
job
is
to
figure
out
for
you.
How
do
you
get
in
touch
with
that?
Other
thing?
For
me,
it's
sort
of
a
process
of
of
befuddling
myself,
often
my
picking
a
weird
Voice
or
like
in
that
story.
B
D
B
I
forget
to
be
analytical
okay,
so
your
your
Concepts
go
out
the
the
window
in
this
book.
I
quote
Einstein,
although
I'm
not
sure
he
actually
said
it,
but
the
quote
was
no
worthy
problem
is
ever
solved
in
the
plane
of
its
original
conception.
So
if
you
start
a
story,
I'm
going
to
critique
capitalism,
and
then
you
do
everybody's
asleep.
D
B
The
reader
can
feel
that
you
were
on
that
trip
by
yourself.
You're,
basically
condescending
it's
the
world's
worst
date.
You
know,
let
me
tell
you
about
myself
for
two
hours
and
I
know
what
I
think
about
myself
and
you
sit
there
and
take
it.
Whereas
a
you
know
a
good
date
is.
You
is
second
by
second
intimate
right
communication.
B
So,
for
me,
the
way
to
make
that
happen
and
to
sort
of
destabilize
my
planning
mind,
is
to
get
myself
into
deep
water
and
then
try
to
get
out
the
weird
thing
that
I
learned
was:
if
you
do
that,
all
the
things
we
associate
with
literature
plot
theme
rising
action
escalation.
It's
all
there
automatically
if
I,
if
I
can
compel
you
to
keep
listening
to
me,
all
those
things
are
almost
de
facto
in
in
the
narrative.
You
know.
A
A
F
B
B
So
then
I
I
use
this
metaphor
over
and
over
and
I'm
sure
you've
heard
it
if
you've
read
this
book,
even
but
basically
there's
a
meter
in
your
meter
in
your
head
and
with
p
over
here
for
positive
and
for
negative
and
as
you're
reading
your
own
work
you're
just
watching
that
meter
to
see
how
you're
doing
you're
you're
kind
of
trying
to
pretend
you're
a
first-time
reader.
B
It's
like
that
old
commercial
I'm,
not
a
doctor,
but
I
play
one
on
TV
you're
trying
to
play
a
first-time
reader,
even
though
you
aren't
then,
when
the
needle
goes
into
the
negative.
That's
just
a
story
saying
to
you:
I
need
a
little
attention.
You
know
you're
you're
underestimating
me!
You
come
back!
You
try
to
fit
so
you
do
this,
I
mean
I.
Do
it
hundreds,
sometimes
thousands
of
times
through
and
through?
B
And
through
always
in
a
spirit
of
not
thinking
or
deciding,
but
just
feeling
like
cut
that
work
put
this
phrase
in
just
in
intuition,
and
if
you
do
that
many
many
many
times
weirdly
the
story
starts
to
get
more
view
in
it.
It
also
starts
to
surprise
you
and
it
grows
beyond
your
original
conception
of
it.
So,
in
a
way,
that's
my
whole
writing.
Ethos
is
put
some
garbage
down
and
then
go
through
it
seven
thousand
times.
You
know
in
the
right
state
of
mind,
and
then
you
got
a
story.
You
know
yeah.
B
It
was
I
was
working
in
an
engineering
job
in
Rochester.
We
just
had
our
two
daughters
and
they
were
babies,
and
it
was
that
I
mean
I.
Think
there
are
some
writers
here,
and
so
this
was
a
stage
of
life
where
the
world
was
saying.
Not
only
do
I
not
want
you
to
be
a
writer
I
prefer
you
just
quit,
don't
don't
do
it
so
I
was
stealing
time
at
work.
Basically,
at
this
I
was
a
tech
writer.
So
it
was,
you
know.
I
was
hard
to
spot.
I
looked
like
I.
B
Was
writing
all
the
time
and
I
just
I
had
written
a
novel,
700
page
novel
called
La
Boda
de
Eduardo,
which
means
Ed's
wedding,
I'd
gone
to
a
friend's
wedding
and
typed
it
up.
You
know,
and
it
was
so
I
thought
it
was
kind
of
a
master,
a
joycian
masterpiece
actually,
and
so
I
gave
it
to
my
wife
and
she
let
me
know
that
it
was
not
in
fact
any
kind.
You
know
she
I
gave
it
to
her
and,
as
all
writers
do
I.
So
just
take
your
time.
B
There's
no
rush,
I
I,
think
I
know
what
I
think
about
it.
You
know,
and
then
I
went
in
the
other
room
and
snuck
around
the
corner
and
after
about
six
page
issues
like
this
this,
so
that
was
that
was
really
I'm
a
joke
now,
but
it
was
really
hard.
Then
I
went
into
work
and
was
a
was
taking
notes
for
a
conference
call
and
I
was
so
sad
and
bored
and
oh
my
God
I'm.
B
You
know
29
years
old,
30
years
old,
whatever
I
just
wasted
a
year
of
my
life
and
I,
found
myself
writing
these
little
susian
poems
just
these
little
dog
girl,
poems
and
drawing
illustrations
and
I
brought
those
home
the
next
day
and
Paula
I
heard
her
laughing
from
the
other
room
with
real
Delight.
First
time
anybody
had
responded
to
my
work
at
all.
Usually
it
was
just
like.
B
Oh
interesting
or
you
know,
oh,
it
seems
like
you
really
worked
hard
on
this,
so
that
so
that
was
something
something
opened
up
and
for
me
it
was
that
all
those
years
I
had
been
suppressing
entertainment,
let's
say,
or
certainly
suppressing,
humor
trying
to
be
very
Hemingway.
Oscar
joycian
in
serious
serious
years
that
reaction
from
Paula
made
me
realize
that
in
real
life,
I'd
been
using
humor
for
everything.
D
B
It
was
just
such
a
simple
door
to
open,
but
it
never
occurred
to
me
so
then,
all
of
a
sudden,
I
kind
of
felt
like
oh,
could
I
be
entertaining
in
a
short
story
and
it
just
it
was
like
the
whole
world
just
opened
up.
You
know
so.
I
talked
to
my
students
about
this.
That
you
300
pages
is
a
lot
and
you
can't
fake
300
pages,
so
something
natural
and
authentic
and
dare
I
say
it.
B
A
With
the
Russian
writers
you
selected
and
the
specific
stories,
it's
not
necessarily
their
best
work,
I
think
right.
But
it's
representative
of
what
you
want
to
teach.
B
B
Well,
what
I
wanted
to
teach
in
that
one
is:
how
do
you
narrate
change
in
a
character
authentically,
because
a
story
pretty
much
has
to
I
mean
has
to,
but
they
tend
to
be.
Things
were
like
this
and
then
there
was
a
change
that
otherwise
it's
you
know
one
day
everything
was
the
same
and
the
next
day
it
was
the
same,
and
the
next
day
was
the
same.
The
end.
B
So
in
that
one
there's
a
there's.
A
character
has
an
amazing
change
of
heart,
not
not
unlike
Scrooge,
actually
in
some
ways,
and
so
we
look
at
this
one
section
to
see
how
does
Tolstoy
narrate
that
and
basically
convince
us
of
the
impossible,
which
is
this
real
stinker
who's
been
so
unlikable
and
greedy
and
horrible.
The
whole
story
in
the
last
10
pages
becomes
almost
saintly,
so
you
know
as
you're
reading
it.
You
think
well,
I
I,
hope
this
guy
changes,
I,
don't
know,
I,
don't
think
he
can.
B
It
seems
impossible
based
on
what
I
know
of
life,
and
you
feel
Tolstoy
about
to
change
him
and
you
think,
oh
no.
This
is
going
to
be
so
cheesy,
you
know,
and
then
Tulsa
does
a
bit
of
magic
and
you
think
that's
how
human
beings
change.
You
know
the
way
that
he
changes
is
the
way
is,
and
basically
I
mean
not
the
spoiler
alert,
but
he,
his
fundamental
energy
is
the
same
he's
a
he's,
a
very
self-centered,
energetic,
accomplishing
focused
kind
of
person,
selfish
and
in
a
critical
moment.
B
He
just
takes
all
those
virtues
and
applies
it
to
a
slightly
slightly
more
intelligent
task
and
so
he's
still
kind
of
selfish,
as
he
does
his
heroic
thing
he's
still,
but
he's
also
still
energetic
you
know.
So
it's
a
beautiful
insight
and
I
I.
If
you
read
those
two
or
three
paragraphs,
it
teaches
you
so
much
about
the
way
that
Tolstoy
worked
with
the
mind.
You
know
it's
just
a
brilliant
story
and
very
moving.
You
know
very
yeah.
Well.
A
In
your
fiction,
as
well
as
represented
in
most
of
these
stories,
is
the
is
the
quality
of
humanity
and
empathy
and
a
couple
of
characters
in
your
short
Story
collection,
Civil,
War,
land
and
and
10th
of
December
I
mean
they're,
they're
kind
of
hapless
they're,
not
necessarily
very
nice
people,
but
you
don't
make
fun
of
them
like
you
believe
in
them,
and
and
because
you
believe
in
them.
A
B
That's
beautiful,
thank
you,
yeah
yeah,
and
you
know
the
funny.
That's
revision.
Actually
because
I'm,
you
know
like
if
someone
cuts
me
off
in
traffic,
I
know
what
their
political
party
is.
You
know
I
and
of
course
you
know
or
any
you
know
any
of
your.
So
the
idea
is
you've
got
these.
It's
just.
Maybe
it's
a
stoic
philosophy.
You
know
you've
got
your
first
reaction,
but
you
don't
have
to
stay
there.
You
know
it's
just
it's
just
like
you
know,
feeling
gassy
or
something
you
know
it's
just
some.
G
B
A
condition,
then,
what
fiction
is
wonderful
for
in
my
book?
Is
you
have
that
first
reaction?
Then
you
get,
you
have
to
come
back
and
revise
it
or
if
you're
you
know
in
in
the
next
scene,
you
have
to
come
back
to
the
person
you
don't
like,
and
then
you
have
to
think
a
little
more
about
her
and
you
have
to
say,
am
I
miss
you
know.
Is
there
anything
I'm
missing?
B
I
was
a
little
rough
with
you
in
that
first
scene,
right
and
she'll
say
well
yeah,
you
know
actually
I've
got
a
I
just
had
a
hip
replacement,
it
hurts
like
hell,
yeah,
oh,
but
you're,
still
kind
of
a
stinker
yeah
I'm,
a
stinker
with
a
hip
replacement,
and
so
all
right,
that's
a
little
more
complicated.
You
know
and
I.
You
know,
I
cheated
on
my
husband
and
I
once
saved
a
guy's
life
and
pretty
soon
you're
I.
Think
the
essential
work
of
the
story
is
to
destabilize
our
judgment.
B
D
B
Doesn't
mean
never
judge,
it
doesn't
mean,
don't
take
bold
action,
but
when
I
read
checkoff
I'm
always
thinking
I'm
actually
have
depths
of
Acceptance
in
patients
that
I
didn't
know
about,
and
I
only
know
about
it
because
of
this
little
journey.
I
went
on
with
this
this
character.
You
know.
A
B
In
his
time,
I
mean
like
our
time.
There
was
a
lot
of
partisan
Rancor
and
people
wanted
the
writers
to
be
political
and
commit
to
overthrowing
the
Czar
and
but
his
art
is
very
contradictory
and
ambiguous
and
and
I
think
he
had
trouble
explaining
because
he
was
a
very
political
person,
a
very
righteous
person,
but
he
just
thought
that
the
the
short
story
wasn't
the
place
for
propaganda,
yeah
and
so
I
yeah.
B
A
Then
you
rushed
back
to
both
this
book
and
and
Liberation
the
new
collection.
What's
the
is
the
process
different?
Is
that?
Are
there
things
that
you
do
with
short
story
stories
that
you
didn't
do
with
the
novel
or
yeah.
B
It's
a
crazy
one-off
that
I,
always
my
wife
said
you
know
I'm,
not
sure.
That's
a
novel
I
said
yeah
I,
it's
a
lot
of
white
space.
You
know
the
the
only
I
the
joke
I
made
at
the
time,
which
is
actually
true,
is
that
I
spent
a
life
making
custom
Yurts.
You
know
these
short
stories
right
and
then
someone
said:
could
you
make
a
mansion
I'm
like
no?
No,
no,
oh
yeah,
actually
I
could
I
could
just
put
a
lot
of
Yurts
together.
You
know.
B
So
it's
the
the
Basic
Energy
was
was
the
same.
The
only
relief
was
I
got
to
have
a
real,
simple
outline,
which
was
Lincoln
comes
to
the
graveyard
and
at
some
point
he
leaves.
No.
He
comes
here,
has
an
interaction
with
his
son's
body
and
leaves
meanwhile
Willie
is
there
shouldn't
be
and
either
goes
or
doesn't
that
was
sort
of
the
camera
yeah?
B
So
that
gives
you
something
to
kind
of
pin
the
the
vignettes
too,
but
that
was
something
that
was
very
special
because
it
was
20
years
of
thinking
and
20
years
of
pushing
it
off
because
I
didn't
think
I
had
the
the
chops.
So
then
in
kind
of
a
feeling
like
well,
whatever
I
was
58,
you
know
and
if
I
don't
do
it
now,
the
you
know
the
Grayson's
going
to
read
infinitely
delayed
what
he
always
longed
to
do.
You
know
right
yeah,
so.
A
Let's
talk
a
little
bit
about
Joyce,
it's
the
100th
anniversary
of
the
publication
of
the
Ulysses,
which
was
highly
controversial
at
the
time.
A
In
preparing
for
tonight,
though,
Dubliners
was
controversial
as
well
in
in
terms
of
Joyce
not
being
able
to
find
a
printer
right
away.
Can
you
talk
a
little
bit
about
Dubliners
and
in
connection
with
the
the
short
story
form,
but
also
what
Joyce
was
trying
to
do
because
he's
considered
a
modernist,
yes
and
not
just
telling
stories
about
well?
First,
we
did
this,
and
then
we
did
that
right.
B
Well,
I
had
first
read
this
book
in
Tobias,
Wolf's
Class
at
Syracuse
years
ago
and
I
not
sure
I
mean
I,
know,
I,
read
it,
but
nothing
registered
except
the
first
three
stories.
D
B
Joyce
had
set
this
up
as
childhood:
youth
maturity
and
public
life.
That's
the
arc.
So
once
I
got
past,
childhood
I
was
like
grown-ups,
boring
you
know,
but
so
I
think
the
the
story,
I
always
remember,
was
araby
because
it
felt
so
much
like
my
life.
There
was
a
I
tell
the
story
in
the
essay
that
I
was
raised
on
the
south
side
of
Chicago
and
my
dad
had
a
restaurant.
B
So
we
would
cater
this
Fourth
of
July
Carnival
every
year
and
it
was
a
girl
that
I
just
wasn't
in
love
with,
and
my
dream
was
to
go
on
the
skydiver
with
her.
B
That
would
be
like
almost
like
marrying
her
and
so
I
was
prepared
myself
to
ask
and
then
she
said,
no
I
have
a
date
and
she
had
a
date
with
a
Carney
who
was
35
or
something
and
the
date
heartbreakingly
she
got
dressed
up
and
the
date
was
meeting
him
in
the
cab
of
his
truck
literally,
that
was
it
and
I
just
I
would
thought
oh
you're
so
dear
to
me:
don't
do
it,
you
know
and
she
was
like
I'm
going
so
there's
a
line
in
Arabi
where
he
said:
I
don't
have
the
line,
but
it's
something
like
and
I
saw
myself
as
a
creature
derided
by
Vanity.
B
You
know
and
I
just
remember,
walking
down
the
Midway
going
I.
You
know
I'm
a
fool
I'm,
a
Fool
so
that
so
that
was
a
time
where
one
of
those
magical
moments
where
your
actual
life,
which
is
not
literary,
suddenly,
is
because
of
of
Joyce.
So
that
happened
in
grad,
school
and
I.
Read
the
book
and
loved
it.
And
then,
when
Dwayne
contacted
me,
I
kind
of
was
busy
and
he's
so
wonderful
and
powerful,
he's,
persuasive
and
persuasive
yeah.
B
A
Know
so
for
for
those
who
haven't
yet
read
the
introduction
to
the
the
new
Edition,
which
is
freedom
reads
Edition,
can
you
tell
us
a
little
bit
about
what
you
were
conveying
what
what
your
point
of
view
is
for
the
introdu.
B
You
know
saying
here's
why
you
should
read
this
book
and
you
should
read
this
book
because
Dubliners
is
a
book
about
Joyce's
City,
but
it's
also
a
joy,
a
story
about
your
city,
whatever
your
city
is
Dubliners,
is
about
that
and
it's
about
the
relationship
of
the
mind
to
a
place
in
time
and
so
I
kind
of
make
the
case
in
the
essay
that
here's
something
that
happened
to
you
there's
a
parallel
in
Dubliners,
make
it
a
series
of
those.
B
So
it's
kind
of
a
little
bit
light-hearted,
but
also
that
this
I
mean
everything
that
we
love
about
stories.
I
think
it
comes
certainly
from
Chekhov,
I
think
but
through
Joyce
and
Dubliners
is
his
probably
the
most
traditional
book
and
what
I
noticed
this
time
was
he'll
tell
a
very
it's
a
very
dense.
The
stories
are
very
dense,
a
lot
of
Dublin
and
a
lot
of
Irish
language
and
a
lot
of
motion
through
the
city.
B
But
every
one
of
the
stories
works
per
his
idea.
What
he
called
The
Epiphany,
which
is
okay,
there's
an
overstory
which
is
the
noise
of
the
street
and
the
longings
of
the
characters,
but
under
it
there's
something
deeper
happening
and
the
writer
doesn't
quite
know
what
it
is
until
he
does,
and
at
that
moment
you
note
and
it
bursts
through
the
surface
and
the
story
ascends
into
short
story
Hood.
So
there's
a
beautiful
story
that
I
didn't
even
notice
the
first
time
through
called
clay.
Yes,
isn't
that
amazing.
G
Yes,
so
it's
just
a
a
woman,
who's
sort
of
I,
don't
know.
B
Right
right
and
so
she's
going
to
a
party
at
a
family
party
and
she
in
a
kind
of
a
gesture
of
extravagance.
She
spends
a
little
too
much
on
a
cake
and
takes
it
on
the
train
with
her
right
and
then
a
kernel.
Looking
gentleman,
that's
the
phrase
pays
a
little
bit
of
attention
to
her
and
you
get
the
instance.
It
flusters
her
and
she
forgets
the
cake
right.
So
she
goes
to
the
party
without
cake,
but
Joyce
doesn't
make
much
of
that.
It's
just
a
fact.
B
She
gets
to
the
party,
nothing
you
know,
and,
and
so
anyway
the
the
thing
is
you're
you're
in
this
story
and
if
you're
reading
it
correctly
you're,
not
you're,
just
barely
sensing
these
little
indignities
adding
up
one
of
her
nieces
makes
fun
of
her
and
then
at
some
point
she
sings
a
song.
She
sings
a
song
about
how
really
the
world
is
Harsh,
except
for
love.
You
know,
and
you
realize
she
doesn't
have
well.
B
We
think
she
doesn't
have
love
and
then
the
story
ends
with
her
brother
being
so
moved
by
the
song
that
he
has
to
go
into
the
corner
and
just
have
a
little
tear
right
and
he's
also
sort
of
her
protector
in
this.
You
know
so
it's
just
it's
so
subtly
done
and
I
think
you
could
read
it
and
just
say
yeah.
Well,
it's
a
party,
you
know
big
deal,
but
Joyce
is
so
hypersensitive
to
sorrow.
I
would
say
that
he
just
knows,
and
if
you
step
back
it's
one
of
the
most
beautiful
it's.
A
A
beautiful
story-
I
didn't
know
it
at
all
when
I
was
rereading
The
Collection
I
was
like
oh
wow.
I
must
have
skipped
this
the
first
time
around
right,
which
leads
me,
though,
to
the
dead,
which
is
another
gathering
of
people
at
a
party.
If
you
haven't
read
it
yet
folks
or
if
you've
read
it
before,
but
you
need
to
read
it
again.
It's
just
like
perfect
yeah
and
last
night
again
prepare
hearing
I
watched
the
John
Houston
Angelica
Houston
movie,
which
is
streamable.
It's
excellent.
B
It's
I
have
a
feeling
that
that
story
is
related
to
Clay,
because
it's
it's
similar
and
it's
even
more
subtle
because
most
of
it's
a
very
beautifully
done
party
scene-
and
you
can,
you
know
you
can
smell
the
floorboards
and
the
food
and
it's
just
wonderful.
And
then
this
is
just
my
interpretation.
I'd
love
to
hear
yours,
but
what's
his
name,
the
guy's.
A
B
Gabriel
Gabriel
all
Gabriel,
the
focus
is
on
Gabriel
Gabriel
has
to
give
a
speech
and
he's
fussing
about
it.
The
way
that
we
men
plus,
because
it's
the
most
important
thing,
I'm
giving
a
speech
and
he's
nervous
and
then
he
gives
a
speech
and
there's
a
lot
more
than
this.
But
in
a
nutshell,
he
they
go
home.
That
night
right
and
his
wife
reveals
I,
don't
want
to
spoil
it.
B
But
his
wife
reveals
something
about
her
past
right
that
both
kind
of
breaks
his
heart
but
also
reveals
the
extent
of
his
ego,
and
he
can't
accept
her
except
through
his
vision
right.
You
know
and
then
the
famous
last
lines
where
he
he
steps
out
into
the
snow
and
it's
a
very
mysterious.
Those
lines
are
so
mysterious
and
they're.
So
perfect.
It.
A
A
She
is
they're,
leaving
she's
caught
on
the
stairs
by
the
voice
of
the
tenor
in
the
other
room
playing
a
tune,
an
Irish
air
that
she
knows
well
from
growing
up
in
Galway,
which
her
husband
has
sort
of
dismissed
earlier.
As
you
know,
country
and
he's
sophisticated
and
he's
pompous,
and
all
of
that,
but
all
of
a
sudden
he
realizes.
Oh,
my
God,
I
I,
don't
really
think
I
know
this
woman.
D
B
And
what's
so
so
beautiful
about
that,
is
that
it's
such
an
eternal
thing
even
now
do
we
know
the
people
that
we
supposedly
love?
Well,
sometimes
you
know
it
switches
on
and
off
and
in,
and
so
how
did
Joyce
get
to
that
Timeless
Eternal
principle
in
such
it's
just
a
almost
quotidian
story,
and
suddenly
you
think
he
had
his
eye
on
that
all
along.
He
wasn't
going
to
stop
writing
that
story
until
it
yielded
something
Universal
and
that's
that's
a
master.
You
know
the.
A
I
actually
listened
to
the
Dead
audiobook,
just
just
that
story
and
I've
listened
to
a
lot
of
your
work,
audio
either.
You've
read
or
other
people
have
read,
of
course,
famously
170
000
people
read
Lincoln
at
the
Bardo,
but
but
tell
me
a
little
bit
because
I
I
have
just
become
this
evangelist
for
audiobooks
that
it
happened
because
of
the
pandemic.
Library
was
closed.
It
was
easier
to
get
audio
books
and
I'm.
A
B
The
funny
thing
is
I
always
have
written
with
some
degree
of
performance
in
mind
and
but
then
also
there
was
a
way
to
actually
do
that.
So
what
happened
with
with
me
was
for
a
long
time.
The
idea
was,
you
couldn't
have
an
audiobook
unless
you
sold
a
certain
amount
of
books
which
I
never
did
so
when
10th
of
December
came
out,
they
said:
okay,
now
you
can
do
it.
B
So
I
did
the
the
audiobook
with
a
wonderful
producer
named
Kelly
gilday,
and
we
had
such
a
good
time
with
that
book
and
she
really
let
me
when
I'd
read
in
the
past.
It
would
kind
of
like
basically
say:
can
you
kind
of
de-chicago
it
a
little
bit?
You
know
you
swallow
your
you
know.
Oh
I'll
I'll
try.
You
know
so
Kelly
said.
No
just
do
it.
You
know
it's
just
talk
like
you
talk
do
the
voices,
so
we
had
a
really
good
time
the
audiobook
did
well.
B
So
then,
when
Lincoln
and
the
Bardo
came
out,
we
were
kind
of
buddies.
At
that
point
and
I
said,
and
one
of
us
said
you
know,
wouldn't
it
be
cool
if
we
could
do
each
of
the
monologues
in
that
book
different
with
a
different
actor
and
she
said.
B
And
then
she
went
off
and
she
called
me
the
next
day
and
said:
I
did
a
PowerPoint
or
whatever
a
spreadsheet.
We
need
166
people.
I
said
all
right
all
right.
Well,
where
do
we
get
him?
She
said
I,
don't
know,
I
don't
know
so
so
we
started
working
on
the
celebrity
angle
and
Nick.
Offerman
is
a
friend
and
he.
D
B
Right
to
work
and
Megan
Mullally
and
they
got
a
bunch
of
great
people
and
I
meanwhile
got
my
family,
my
mom,
my
dad,
my
daughters,
my
high
school
teachers,
just
everybody
and
then
Random
House
employees
and
every
so
we
came
up
to
the
number
and
no
two
people
were
ever
in
this
studio
at
the
same
time,
so
she
used
11,
different
Studios
and
nine
cities.
B
I
had
some
amazing
things,
just
a
so
that
was
fun
and
it
worked,
and
so
we
got
so
then
for
this
for
the
Russian
book
we
were
allowed
to
do
the
same
things
right.
D
B
A
Well,
I
just
love
the
the
luxury
of
frankly
being
read
to
and
we
were
when
we
were
talking
before
the
program
earlier
this
evening.
It's
takes
us
way
back
to
the
storytelling
around
the
campfire
and
how
we
passed
stories
through
oral
tradition
and
to
me
there's
nothing
like
it.
B
You
know
I
I
drove
this
is
this
is
my
version
of
on
the
road
I
drove
my
Prius
from
New
York
to
California
in
three
days
it
was
a
pretty
good
time
wow,
but
I
had
the
audiobook
and
I
hadn't
really
heard
the
whole
thing
before
and
so
to
kind
of
just
say
all
right,
let's
this
book
that
you're
so
attached
to,
let's
see
how
it
is,
you
know,
and
you
just
get
to
hear
all
these
talented
people
exerting
you
know
their
their
talent
toward
that
and
or
with
this
new
book
I
I
had
you
know
those
stories
are
done
and
you
kind
of
forget
about
them,
and
then
I
listened
to
the
audiobook,
which
says
Tina
Fey
on
it
and
Edie
Patterson
and
Jenny
Jenny
yeah,
and
so
it
was
really
a
way
of
going.
H
A
The
Civil
War
land
in
bad
decline,
I
just
listened
to
as
well
and
there's
quite
a
bit
of
music
interludes.
Do
you
I
know
you
play
guitar
yeah.
B
Guess
you
had
a
hand
I
did
and
one
of
one
of
the
things
I
the
sneaky
things
I
did
was
when
Lincoln
audiobook
did
well
I
asked
if
I
could
go
in
the
studio
so
on
in
Persuasion
nation
and
a
couple
others
there's
a
full
like
a
two-minute
insane
song
nice
that
I
that
I
got
to
do
I
loved
it
yeah.
Well,
that's.
A
Great
all
right,
so
we're
gonna,
stop
talking
and
turn
it
over
to
you
all
to
ask
questions.
I
know
a
lot
of
you
are
writers,
yes
right
so
I'm,
counting
on
you
now
to
ask
some
tough
questions
and
we've
got.
We've
got
a
master
Storyteller
here,
so
be
great.
So
we're
going
to
do
the
lineup
in
the
middle.
J
A
B
And
while
we're
forming
can
I
just
say,
first
of
all,
there
is
going
to
be
a
signing
and
I
appreciate
if
you
mask
and
I'm
going
to
only
because
I
have
11
more
cities
to
go
to,
and
I
was
staying
for,
I'm
Catholic,
so
if
I
get
it
I
deserve
it.
But
if
I,
if
I
give
it
to
anybody
else,
I
can't
stand
it
and
if
I
have
to
cancel
the
tour
I'm
going
to
be
sad.
So
if
you
could
do
anything
to
help
me,
I'd
really
appreciate.
A
B
K
D
A
B
And
that's
a
great
question,
so
the
question
is
revision
is
important.
Do
you
ever
get
to
the
point
where
you're
sick
of
it
and
at
that
point,
should
you
keep
going
or
put
it
away?
I
think
you
should
put
it
away
because
you
know
what
you're
really
relying
on,
at
least
in
my
method,
which
you
know
is
that
you're
you're
hoping
to
have
a
real,
strong
opinion
about
what
you've
just
done.
And
so,
if
you
don't
like
it,
you
know
it
does
in
a
way.
B
The
opinion
doesn't
count
if
you're
slogging,
through
it
so
I,
say,
put
it
away
and
what
you're
doing
is
you're
trying
to
readjust
your
gaze.
So
you
can
read
it
like
a
first
time
writer.
So
what
I
try
to
do
is
have
three
or
four
things
going
at
once
and
then,
whichever
one
makes
me
happy,
I'll
work
on
that
one
and
I
never
want
to
work
out
of
a
sense
of
Duty
until
maybe
at
the
very
end,
when
you're
close
and
then
then,
but
yeah
I,
think
fun.
Fun
is
important.
You
know
yeah.
N
Hi
I
wanted
to
get
your
thoughts
on
how
people
could
say
like
what
are
the
factors
in
somebody
listing
some
kind
of
suffering
in
their
life
that
make
you
care
about
it.
Like
I'm,
a
social
worker
and
I've
heard
people
kind
of
talk
about
trauma
in
a
way
that
I
feel
for
them
and
then
other
times,
I
like
them
and
everything.
But
they.
D
N
B
They're
lucky
to
have
you
if
you,
if
you
think
about
that
way,
that's
that
I'll
have
the
answer
for
that
about
six
in
the
morning.
But
let
me
try
I,
think
I
think
it
has
to
do
maybe
with
specificity.
You
know
if
I'm
telling
you
about
something
and
I'm
telling
it
to
you
specifically
you're
able
to
see
it
and
also
somehow
I'm,
not
sure
if
this
is
right,
but
in
concentrating
on
specificity,
you're
kind
of
forced
to
cleave
to
the
truth.
B
So
if
I
say
I've
got
the
worst
light,
everybody
hates
me-
and
you
say
well,
tell
me
more
if
I
can
name
nine
people
that
actually
hate
me,
you
like
me
because
I'm
not
lying,
but
oh
everybody
hates
me.
You
know
that
Beyonce
hates
me.
She
never
calls
me
nothing!
Well!
Oh
that's
so
I
think
I,
think
to
for
a
person
to
be
urged
to
specificity
might
be,
might
be
good
but
I'm
sure
you're,
wonderful
at
your
job,
so
I
I'm,
yeah.
O
Hi
I'm
just
curious
if
you've
read
John
Gardner
on
moral
fiction
and
if
so,
what
do.
B
You
think
about
it,
yeah
that
was
the
Bible
when
we
were
in
grad
school
and
I.
Haven't,
read
it
in
a
long
time,
but
the
one
idea,
I
love,
is
that
the
idea,
the
fictive
dream
that
you're
you're
trying
to
put
the
the
reader
into
this
fictive
dream
and
revising
would
have
to
do
with
never
knocking
the
reader
out
of
that
state,
which
is
kind
of
the
same
thing
that
we're
talking
about
here.
B
P
D
B
Much
I
think
you
recognize
that
that
those
are
two
different
hats
and
you
need
them
both.
So
you
need
a
lot
of
self-belief
when
you're
producing
and
even
in
the
same
hour,
you
can
slap
on
the
self-doubt
hat
to
revise.
So
what
I
tell
my
students
and
I'm
a
little
bit
new
age,
but
what
I
would
say
is
look
what
if
there
was
no
mistakes?
What,
if
there's
nothing
wrong
with
you?
B
You
know
you
won't
publish
a
piece
of
excuse
me,
but
you
know
you
then
I
have
I
have
also
sometimes
I'm,
really
full
of
myself
good
go
on
a
roll.
You
know
so
I
think
to
not
make
oppositions
like.
That
is
one
thing
we
we
tend
to
be:
writers
tend
to
be
responsible
type,
A
people
who
are
suspicious
of
having
fun.
You
know
in
a
certain
way
in
writing,
so
I
think
just
recognize
that
whatever
you
bring
forth
when
you're
writing
is
what
was
given
to
you
and
your
job
is
to
tilt
it
slightly.
H
So
I
have
a
problem:
I'm
stuck
I'm.
Obviously
a
high
school
student
and
I've
been
assigned
a
memoir
piece
in
the
form
of
I,
don't
know
and
like
an
imitation
style
limitation
of
Sherman,
alexie
I,
don't
know
if
you've
read
his
piece
sure
it's
like
he
goes
through
different
grades
and
describes
growing
up
and
I've
been
told
to
imitate
this
grade
by
grade
and
I'm
completely
stuck.
What's
your
advice?
Why
are
you
stuck
on
that
I?
Don't
know
I,
so
I
write
mostly
like
I
write
for
the
school
newspaper.
B
M
So
I
have
two
questions,
one
of
which
I
came
up
with
in
the
line.
The
first
one
is
is
in
Lincoln
and
the
Bardo.
You
have
a
very
distinct
thing
going
where
you
have
some
very,
very
short
I,
guess
you
call
them
all
vignettes
and
then
you
know
to
carry
it.
There
are
places
where
it
gets
much
thicker
much
more
developed
and
I'm
wondering.
Is
there
a
pattern
or
some
math
behind
what
you're
doing
there
and
and
how
you
arrived
at
that
balance?
M
B
Okay,
the
second
one
is
that
question
stops
in
my
tracks,
so
I
don't
think
about
it.
Okay,
no-
and
this
is
part
of
what
the
the
advice
I
gave
to
you-
is
I'm,
a
very
functional
writer
I
just
want
to
produce.
So
if,
if
there's
a
conundrum,
I
can't
solve
and
I,
don't
actually
need
it
to
work,
I
just
say:
that's
for
the
theorist.
You
know
very
liberating
and
especially
I'm
an
anxious
person.
So
when
I
was
younger,
I'd
spent
a
lot
of
time
trying
to
break
these
puzzles
about
am
I
a
modern
instrument.
B
It
never
helped
me
so
I
gave
myself
permission
to
set
those
aside
honestly,
just
as
a
as
a
pragmatic
thing,
the
first
one
is
well,
maybe
related
I,
just
felt
I
just
felt
where
those
sections
should
go
and
how
long
they
should
be,
and
sometimes
the
feeling
was
just
one
sentence
chapter.
You
know:
I
I
talked
to
Rodney
Crowell.
B
Q
Hi
hi
excuse
me
so
I've
noticed
that,
after
writing
for
about
20
years
I'm,
a
different
writer,
Than
I
Used
to
Be
There
are
parts
of
that
I
appreciate,
and
then
there
are
parts
that
I
miss.
Do
you
ever
feel
like
you
need
to
look
like
reconnect
with
the
writer
that
you
used
to
be,
or
is
that
just
something
like
I
just
should
accept
that
I've
changed
no.
B
I
think
that's
really
wise
I
I
noticed
when
I
read
the
audiobook
for
civil
warland.
I
was
like
that's.
B
B
One
time
say
near
the
end
of
his
life
that
when
he
looked
back
at
his
production,
it
seemed
to
him
like
being
at
the
bottom
of
a
ski
hill
at
the
end
of
ski
hill
at
the
end
of
a
beautiful
day,
and
he
just
went
oh
look,
that's
where
I
was
in
at
noon.
You
know
1962.,
that's
why
I
was
at
five
o'clock
and
they're
all
fine.
B
You
know
they're,
so
I
think
I,
wouldn't
I,
wouldn't
worry
that
too
much
I
would
just
see
do
what
interests
you
now
and
and
trusted
it's
a
totality
and
you're
going
to
use
all
of
it.
There's
you
know
you
can't.
Your
subconscious
is
only
so
big
and
when
you
get
to
me
my
age
you're
like
is
there
an
inch
of
this
I
haven't
sat
in
you
know
so
yeah.
So
just
you
know,
relax
and
do
what
feels
fun
to
you
right
now.
That's
what
I
would
say.
Thank
you.
Yeah.
D
R
A
Russian
translator
and
my
hobbies
I
do
check
off
I've,
not
translated
any
of
the
stories
that
you
covered
in
your
book,
but
I
noticed
that
every
time
I
translate
from
Russian
to
English
that
there's
not
something
that's
lost,
but
changed.
It's
not
the
same
story,
particularly
in
the
Russian
language
perspective,
compared
to
the
English
language
perspective.
Sure.
N
B
We
had
one
of
the
second
time,
I
taught
the
class
I
brought
in
a
colleague
a
translator,
and
she
demolished
the
class
because
she
showed
us
five
translations
of
a
passage
from
the
Overcoat
Google,
and
she
said
none
of
these.
None
of
these
is
even
close
to
the
original.
The
humor
is
wrong.
They
miss
the
jokes,
so
I
said
well,
yes,
I
meant
to
do
that,
but
but
really,
but,
but
since
then
the
idea
was,
of
course
we
don't
we're.
Not
reading
we're
not
actually
studying
the
Russian.
B
We're
running
we're
studying
the
Russian
short
story
in
Translation,
even
in
some
of
the
Google.
Is
that
I
think
a
bad
translation
that
I
used?
It's
okay,
we
just
pretend
like
we
read,
Google,
wrote
it
in
English
and
left
it
on
the
bus,
and
we
and
we
picked
it
up.
You
know,
so
that's
really
the
the
idea.
B
What
was
the
other
question?
There
was
another
question.
B
I
love
it
and
I
work
with
translators
and
I
love
to
answer
their
questions
and
and
in
great
details.
I
I
think
one
story
was
translated
in
Russian
early
and
I
have
a
really
talented
student
named
Keith
gessen.
Who
is
a
you
know
great
speaker
of
Russian
and
I
said.
How
was
that
story?
He
said
yeah,
you
know
it's.
It's
good
and
apparently
every
time
I
use
any
kind
of
idiom
they
put
in
the
Russian
word.
For
so
the
whole.
The
whole
thing
is,
he
says
just
like.
B
K
Hi,
how
would
your
writing
of
your
style
be
different
if
you
weren't
a
formally
educated
engineer.
B
Well,
I
think
it
would
be
well
one
thing:
I
know
I
took
from
that
or
was
it
I
went
to
the
School
of
Mines
in
Colorado.
So
it's
a
very
oh
there.
You
are
you.
Are
you
an
Alum.
B
Wow
that's
a
hard
place.
It
is,
but
when
I
was
there
and
I'm
sure
now
that
their
Mantra
was
no
partial
credit,
so
if
you
got
to
the
end
of
a
six-page
proof
and
you
messed
up,
that
was
a
zero
and
there
and
they
would
say
that
you
know
in
the
in
orientation.
They
say:
look
to
your
left.
Look
to
your
right!
Two
of
you
are
flunking
out.
You
know
like
that,
and-
and
it
happened
that
way,
so
the
and
I
was
a
real
bottom.
Dweller
I
was
always
just
barely
making
it.
B
So
what
it
taught
me,
though,
was
in
writing
if
you
get
to
draft
99,
so
what
you
know
if
it's
still
bad,
it's
no
partial
credit,
and
that
was
a
hard
thing
to
be
to
to
live
through,
but
it
it
made
me
kind
of
I,
guess
you'd,
say
results,
oriented
I,
don't
care
how
long
it
takes
and
also
there's
a
very
kind
of
a
story.
It's
kind
of
like
an
equation.
Actually
to
me
you
know
it's
got
a
beginning.
That
then
leads
you
to
the
end.
So
there's
something
quite
quite
scientific
about
it.
S
S
I
was
wondering,
since
you
started
teaching
literature
and
writing.
How
is
your
own
writer's
craft
changed
or
your
process
and
have
you
changed
at
all
who
you
write
for.
B
I
think
I've
gotten
better
at
writing
for
I
I've
developed
a
higher
respect
for
my
reader
I.
Think
I
understand
my
job
now
is
to
imagine
a
reader
who's
slightly
smarter
than
I
am
and
has
traveled
a
lot,
and
you
know
so
I'm
trying
to
write
up
to
the
reader,
the
classes.
B
You
know
it's
weird,
they
haven't
changed,
you
get
any
group
of
Syracuse,
we
we
get
700
applications
and
we
let
six
people
come
so
they're,
unbelievable
and
that
over
the
years
you
get
those
six
or
seven
kids
or
20
in
a
class.
You
put
a
great
story
in
front
of
them
and
the
same
thing
happens.
You
know,
so
that's
been
really
reassuring
that
that
each
generation
is
talented
in
its
own
way
and
so
the
privilege
of
teaching.
Is
you
get
to
say?
Okay,
how
is
this
generation
talented
as
opposed
to?
B
B
Wow
I
do
I,
don't
know
it's
kind
of
I
I.
Think
Google
is
I,
don't
think
he's
wildly
funny.
He
doesn't
really
move
me,
but
I
think
he's
who
I'd
like
to
be
as
a
writer
there's
something
about
his
understanding
of
the
world
that
is
so
beautiful
that
he
he
can
be
really
high
in
lyrical
and
then
he'll
have
some
really
irreverent
joke
and
he
just
seems
to
understand
the
way
that
people
can
be
both
good
and
evil
at
the
same
time.
B
So
he's
he's
a
hero
of
mine
in
the
sense
that
I'm
still
trying
to
figure
him
out,
but
Chekhov
is
kind
of.
Like
my
best
friend,
you
know,
I
I
love
his
I
I
love
the
way
that
when
you
read
him,
you
feel
like
he's,
seeing
you
right
now
and
he
you're
dear
to
him
and
that
that's
something
I
really
like
this
is
not
my
favorite
Russian
novel
but
Resurrection
by
Tolstoy
I
think
is
a
really
underestimated
novel.
It's
it's
crazy!
It's
a
really
crazy!
B
It's
almost
a
modernist
text
and
it
it
it
anticipates.
So
many
of
the
problems
of
The
Next
Century.
That's
kind
of
bizarre
I
wrote
it
when
he
was
what
90
or
88
or
something
like
that.
You.
J
J
T
On
the
subject
of
revision,
do
you
have
advice
for
when
you
have
like
a
passage
that
you
wrote
and
you
aren't
quite
happy
with
you
feel
like
you
need
to
do
it
something?
But
every
time
you
go
back
to
revise
you
can't
quite
figure
out
how
to
actually
make
a
fundamental
change.
It
just
seems
to
come
out.
The
same
sounds.
B
Like
you're,
a
writer
yeah,
no,
you
know
what
I
think
can
happen.
This
is
a
little
technical,
but
if
you
pick
up
a
book
from
the
library
any
any
book
and
scan
it
read
it
just
read
it
watch
what
you
think
of
it.
So
I
think
when
a
writer
gets
better
what's
happening,
is
they
can
read
a
sense
of
their
own
and
become
aware
of
very
very
quiet
opinions
that
they
have
about
it?
You
know
very
quiet,
sometimes
a
semicolon
cut
that
out,
or
sometimes
one
word,
that's
actually.
B
What
our
job
is
is
to
get
better
and
better.
At
listening
to
those
little
quiet
opinions,
then
normally
we
just
we
wouldn't
notice
and
if
you
can
become
aware
of
those
and
start
serving
them,
you're
a
stylist.
You
know
when
I
was
a
kid.
I
had
a
nun
that
I
was
in
love
with
and
she
gave
me
she
gave
me
Johnny
Tremaine
by
Esther
Forbes,
it's
a
beautiful
book
and
I'd,
never
really
read
a
stylist
before
so.
B
In
that
book,
which
I
was
reading
to
you
know
to
win
the
hand
of
my
beloved
there's
a
line,
and
it
was
just
my
Chicago
accent.
Will
mess
me
up
here,
but
on
Rocky
aisles
gulls
woke
and
there
was
no
comma
on
Raquel's
war
and
I.
Just
remember
in
third
grade
I
went
that
that
makes
me
see
those
birds
with
the
comma.
B
Of
micro
edits,
but
you
know
the
thing,
is
you
can't
always
hear
them?
You
can't
hear
that
frequency
just
yet.
At
least
that's
true,
for
if
a
person
is
a
stylist,
that's
true
for
Dostoevsky.
That
wasn't
true.
He's
sloppy
right.
So
for
him
it's
a
different
thing.
So
then
so
sort
of
the
the
greater
advice
is
that
might
not
be
the
path
for
you.
You
know,
maybe
it's
perfectly
fine
as
it
is,
and
your
superpower
is
in
some
other.
You
know
I
would,
in
my
classes,
I
always
say
I'm
going
to
talk
like
a
preacher.
B
The
whole
semester
you've
got
to
believe
me.
I
know
the
secrets.
I
have
12
books
out
and
then
at
the
end,
I'm
going
to
say
now
forget
it.
That's
just
for
me.
If
anything
is
still
sticking
to
you
use
it,
but
the
whole
game
is
to
go
out
and
find
your
own.
You
know
your
own
religion
really.
D
D
L
L
Here,
I
was
really
surprised
by
your
story
about
your
wife
and
showing
her
the
little
Comics
you
drew
because
the
first
story-
I
read
from
you-
is
C,
Oak
and
and
to
me
the
humor
is
so
integral
to
your
work
and
you're.
Also
talking
too
about
you
know,
you
can't
just
say:
capitalism
is
bad
like
going
on
a
first
date.
Let
me
tell
you
all
about
myself
and
I
think
about
sea
Oak
and
the
humor,
but
there
is
a
class
message
in
it
sure.
D
B
What
it
does
on
several
levels
sure
thank
you
for
that.
Yeah,
I
I,
think
you
know
it's
a
little
bit
like
bike
riding.
You
know
if
you,
if
you're
tilting,
left,
what's
the
advice,
lean
right,
so
I
think
part
of
what
I
see
my
students
doing.
Is
they
figure
out
two
or
three
things
that
they
do
well
for
me,
I
can
be
very
serious.
Sometimes
sentimental,
modeling
and
I
can
be
really
irreverent.
B
That's
my
whole
life.
That's
my
family!
It's
our
neighborhood!
So
once
you
admit
those
onto
the
playing
field,
then
you're,
like
okay
I've,
got
those
two
modes
to
work
with
serious,
serious,
serious,
serious.
The
meter
says:
you're
boring
everybody,
Mr
ostentatious,
fart,
joke
now,
suddenly,
you've
been
really
serious
and
you've
made
a
fart
joke
and
the
reader's
going.
What
wait
a
minute
which
guy
are
you
and
I
go
hold
on,
keep
going
it's
so
so
in
a
certain
way.
What
you're
trying
to
do
is
confuse
the
reader
as
to
your
intentions.
B
The
best
way
to
do
that
is
to
not
have
any
you
know.
Bartha
may
said,
the
writer
is
that
person
who
embarking
on
her
task
has
no
idea
what
to
do
so.
That's
humor
really
is
just
a
way
of
riding
the
bike
correct.
You
know,
correcting
the
bike.
Also
I
think
it's
what
I
really
believe
about
the
world.
You
know
because
if
you're
you
know
like
tonight
we're
here,
if
we
share
a
laugh
together,
that
really
is
I
say
something
you
laughed
at
saying.
B
Yeah
me
too
yep
there's
nothing
more
comforting
than
that,
and
we
know
that
from
the
last
two
years,
I
think
we
didn't
have
that.
It
was
just
me,
you
know
so.
Literature
now
I
think
is
an
exaggerated
form
of
that
me
too,
me
too
says
check
off.
You
know
you,
you
feel
depressed
me
too
says
whoever
so
I
I
think
that,
but
it
doesn't
mean
the
humor
is
for
everybody.
But
how
do
here's
the
question?
How
do
you
reach
out
to
somebody
and
pat
their
hand
in
your
real
life?
B
You
know:
are
you
how
do
you?
How
do
you
reassure
somebody
that
you're
there
for
them
in
real
life
it?
Now,
unfortunately,
it's
not
a
straight
line.
You
can't
just
say
you
know
I
do
this,
therefore,
but
there's
something
to
that.
You
know
the
urge
to
comfort
I
think
is,
is
or
console.
You
know
that
that'll
think
about
it
should
Comfort
the
oppressed
and
oppress
the
comfortable,
something
like
that,
but
yeah
I'm.
F
F
Lot
out
of
the
singers,
specifically
because
I
didn't
really
feel
like
I
found
the
point
until
you
kind
of
pointed
it
out
at
the
end
right
and
I
felt
like
I
was
able
to
appreciate
it
a
lot
more
after
kind
of
seeing
it
through
your
perspective,
so
I'm
like
wondering
how
many
people
do
you
show
your
piece
to
before
you're
like.
B
B
B
Kitchen
yeah
whatever,
but
then
one
because
and
also
somebody
you
know,
says:
draft
four
isn't
good!
Well
yeah!
You
know
no
surprise,
so.
I
wait
till
really
late
until
I'm
sure
it's
done
and
then
I
show
it
to
my
wife
and
she's,
a
wonderful
writer.
She
wrote
a
novel
called
the
distance
home
and
we've
been
together
forever
as
and
met
as
Young
Writers.
So
she
will
have
an
emotional
reaction
or
she
won't.
D
G
B
B
Yeah
just
send
it
to
my
wife,
you
know:
yeah,
no
I,
I
think
that
inflation
amount.
The
thing
is
don't
feel
bad
for
not
knowing,
because
that's
the
whole
thing
is
you,
you
know
each
of
us
I
think
has
to
go
through
this
journey
to
find
out
what
a
finished
product
feels
like
for
you.
That's
really
the
trick.
You
know.
B
But
a
break
is
nice,
too,
take
take
a
break
yeah
because
you
know
you're
reading
it
from
such
a
complicated
standpoint,
take
a
break,
read
four
or
five
novels.
You
like
go
back
to
yours
and
see
how
it
does
you
know,
and
it's
I
think
at
that
point.
It's
a
loose
thing
like
I
did
my
best.
Let's
see
if
I
can
make
it
a
little
better.
You
know
great
thank.
F
C
Is
this
thing
on
okay?
It
is
sorry
so
I
recently
read
the
sea
Oak
story
for
my
fiction:
writing
class
and
I'm
an
aspiring
writer
as
well.
This
is
everyone
I'm
assume,
like
half
of
the
people
are
here
anyways.
C
Ask
about
different
drafts
from
C
oak
or
like
any
lines
that
were
like
worth
mentioning
that
you
still
think
about
that
were
like
cut
out
yeah
yeah.
B
That
story
was
it's
a
really
good
case
study,
because
I
had
the
first
up
to
the
funeral,
I
had
finished
and
I
was
so
happy
with
it.
You
know
I
really
liked
it
and
then
I
locked
up
and
at
that
time
that
was
a
pattern.
I
would
get
to
a
certain
point
and
just
when
the
story
was
starting
to
decide
what
it
was,
I
would
lock
up
for
a
long
time
so
that
one
I
think
at
some
point,
I
had
400
pages
of
finished
endings
that
were
polished
and
I
would
get
to
that
juncture.
B
Point
and
I
would
go
crap,
not
that's
not
it.
You
know,
so
it
took
a
really
long
time
and
so
I
was
I
was
actually
in
the
shower
one
day.
With
my
doing
some
of
my
best
thinking
and
and
I
was
thinking
God.
Why
can't
you
your
teach,
your
professor?
Why
can't
you
finish
this
stupid
story?
You
know,
there's
a
dead
ant
and
an
aunt
who's
died
and
I
kept
saying
you
know.
She's
got
to
come
back
into
the
story
and
I've
been
for
months.
B
I've
been
having
her
come
back
in
flashbacks
and
dreams
and
blah
blah
she's
got
to
come
back.
She's
got
to
come
back,
you're
such
a
loser
and
then
I.
It's
the
phrase
it
popped
on.
My
head,
she's
got
to
come
back
from
the
dead,
yeah
I
mean
literally
the
phrases
popped
in
and
then
I.
You
know,
I
watched
a
lot
of
horror,
so
I
knew
exactly
how
to
do
it.
So
that
was
just
you
know,
hitting
your
head
against
the
door
than
walking
away
doing
something
else
in
your
subconscious.
C
I
mean
yes
such
we
talked
about,
like
you
know,
surrealist
humor
in
class
and
analyzed
that,
like
my
favorite
line
is
like
show
me,
your
anyways
yeah.
I
C
I
wanted
to
ask
my
last
question
before
I
leave:
do
you
come
from
a
long
line
of
storytellers,
yes
or,
if
so
like?
What
does
that
look
like
for
you.
B
It's
just
Chicago
people
who
know
how
to
hold
the
floor.
You
know
funny
people,
people
my
dad,
would
come
to
a
party
and
everybody
go.
Oh
God,
you
know,
George
is
here
so
yeah,
yeah,
definitely
and
Juno
Diaz
talks
about
that.
He
said
a
writer
is
somebody
who
learned
early
that
language
is
power,
so
it's
annoying
anything.
How
did
I
first
learn
the
language
was
power,
sometimes
just
being
in
a
very
quiet
house.
You
know
in
Juno's
case
it
was.
It
was
being
the
first
person
in
his
family
to
speak,
English.
B
U
Thank
you
for
your
mind
sure.
As
such
a
celebrated
writer,
how
would
you
respond
to
the
question?
What
is
my
responsibility
to
the
reader
writers
like
Milan
kundera?
He
said
that
he
is
a
writer
without
a
message.
Do
you
think
that
is
relevant
in
the
present
day
and
my
sub
question
to
you
is:
what
do
you
think
of
genre
busting
fiction,
I'm.
B
I
think
I
can
sort
of
answer
the
two
and
I
think
the
responsibility
to
the
reader.
Of
course
it's
up
to
you.
You
know
what
what
makes
you
full
of
happiness
and
and
power
for
me.
I
I,
don't
think
much
about
that
in
the
abstract.
I
feel
like
if
I
keep
you
reading
and
if
you
feel
me
honoring
you
with
my
attention,
then
everything
will
take
care
of
itself.
B
The
politics
will
take
care
of
itself
the
theme
and
the
plot,
the
story,
whereas
if
I
start
thinking
about
what
I
want
you
to
take
away
suddenly
our
relationship
is
is
inherently
condescending
because
I'm
telling
you
you
know
so
I
want
us
to
tell
it
together
as
much
as
we
can
and
the
way
to
do.
That
is
from
for
me
to
believe
that
my
I
would
say
Buddha
nature,
but
you
know
you're.
My
holy
self
is
is
same
as
yours,
so
we
can
talk
that
way
and
and
again,
just
in
a
quotation
way.
B
It's
just
by
revising.
If
I
have
a
line
in
there
that
disrespects
you
even
slightly
I,
want
to
fix
that.
So
you
don't
feel
it
so
yeah,
yeah
and
so,
and
so
if
that
process
takes
me
into
genre
or
other
genre,
I'm,
not
thinking
about
genre
I'm
thinking
about
connecting
with
the
reader
and
then
genre
appears,
of
course,
because
by
any
means
necessary,
we
have
to
stay
in
touch.
G
V
So
I
wanted
to
know
if
you
have
read
the
book
salmon
rushdie's
book
called
languages
of
truth,
I.
V
V
So
I
was
going
to
ask
you
next
any
thoughts
on
censorship
and
his
experience.
B
Yeah
well,
I
think
we're
in
a
time
where
censorship
is
sort
of
happening
from
both
sides,
because
we're
all
so
agitated
and
and
scared,
so
I
think
I
mean
I've
just
thought.
Well,
we
have
to
be
for
freedom
of
speech.
We
have
to
be
and
part
of
what
I
I
wrote
about
in
this
Russian
book
is:
if
we
become
good
readers,
really
good,
close
readers,
then
that
makes
us
less
fearful
of
texts
and
more
powerful.
B
You
know
in
the
book
there's
an
example:
I
taught
a
global
story
called
nevsky
Prospect
to
my
grad
students
and
they're,
so
brilliant.
You
know
and
it's
a
kind
of
a
flawed
but
interesting
story.
So
one
of
my
students
said
I
didn't
really
like
it,
because
it's
sexist
I
said
okay
and
you
know
I
said
where
and
she's
an
amazing
student.
B
She
showed
me
exactly
where
and
what
she
showed
me
was
in
in
two
analogous
situations:
one
involving
a
male
character
humiliated
one,
a
female
character
humiliated
the
male
got
a
nice
beefy
inner
monologue
and
the
woman
got
a
joke
made
at
her
expense
by
The
Narrative
voice.
B
B
If
he'd,
given
the
female
character,
a
meaty
internal
monologue,
and
it
was
almost
a
gasp
in
the
room
and
how
much
more
interesting
the
story
would
have
been,
you
know
so,
instead
of
saying
it's
sexist,
throw
it
in
the
garbage
we
got
into
it,
we
opened
it
up,
we
could
still
like
Google,
we
advance
our
technical
knowledge
and
suddenly
it
that
feeling
of
I
don't
know
what
you
would
call
it,
but
that
slight
feeling
of
of
censorship.
You
know
I
can't
read
that
went
away
because
we
were
all
empowered,
you
know.
B
So
that's
what
I
think
close
reading
is
a
really
important
skill.
What
bothers
you
and
where
and
suddenly
the
problem
becomes
a
technical
problem
as
as
opposed
to
a
I
mean
it
might
still
be
a
moral
problem,
but
you
can
get
at
it
better
if
through
the
technical
way
and
then
the
students,
my
thought
is,
the
students
should
feel
powerful.
V
B
Book
right
right
and
you
know,
I
think
you
can
also
read
through
discomfort.
You
know,
there's
some
Terror,
there's
I
mean
yeah,
you
can.
You
can
read
through
discomfort,
watch
how
you
feel
yeah
when
did
I
feel
the
uncomfortable
and
so
it
my
argument
is
not
it.
My
argument
is
for
power.
You
know
we
need
power.
Those
of
us
who
are
readers,
it's
a
moment
for
us
to
have
power
and
and
I
think
to
talk
about
these
issues
confidently
and
with
depth,
as
opposed
to
you
know
social
media,
it
agitates,
and
it's
so
surfacial.
B
How
can
we
solve
a
problem
in
that
mode,
but
fiction
and
essays
and
poetry?
It
offers
us
a
deeper
mode
to
solve,
to
solve
problems
really
and
to
empower
ourselves.
W
Thank
you
very
much
for
this
evening.
Thank
you.
You
answered
a
question
before
you
made
a
reference
and
I
actually
don't
disagree
where
you
talked
about
dostoetsky
being
I
think
he
said.
Dostoevsky
means
sloppy
at
times,
but
it
made
me
think
that
the
last
writer
I
could
think
of
who
was
known
to
write
and
longhand
draft
long
hand
was
Graham
grieve,
so
how
much
of
past
Pros
was
very
dependent
on
just
the
manner
which
people
wrote
right?
How
much
would
your
prose
be
different
if
you
had
a
right
and
longhand.
W
B
A
role
100
there's
actually
a
great
essay
in
that,
because
I
used
to
write
long
hand,
because
I
thought
it
was
kind
of
romantic,
but
when
I
would
type
it
up,
I
really
didn't
like
the
way
it
looked
so
now,
I
I
never
write
longhand
I'm
on
the
computers,
I
mean
I
I,
revive
I,
revise
by
hand,
go
right
to
the
computer
print
it
out.
So
it's
100
technology
dominated
and
I
know
that
I
get
effects
in
my
work
that
I
couldn't
get.
B
If
you
restricted
me
to
six
drafts
or
total
story
as
well
as
you
wrote,
War
and
Peace
ten
times
his
wife
typed
it
each
time
from
scratch.
But
10
is
not
a
lot
for
me.
You
know,
I
mean
he's
whole
story,
so
I
think
there
might.
It
might
be
two
that
people
just
could
write
better
off
the
top
of
their
head
in
the
old
way,
but
I
think
that's
an
interesting
question.
I,
don't
know
the
the
answer,
but
you're
you're
on
to
something
for
sure.
Thank
you.
I
First
I'd
like
to
say
thanks
for
your
humor,
that
makes
this
whole
discussion
even
better.
Oh.
D
I
B
B
D
P
Hi,
thank
you
for
being
here
tonight.
I
am
a
writer
myself,
I'm,
studying
in
college
right
now
and
I
was
wondering
I,
often
struggle
with
dialogue
and
writing
dialogue
that
isn't
that
doesn't
fall
flat
and
also
that
serves
a
greater
purpose,
and
that
is
actually
interesting.
So
what
advice
do
you
have
for
a
young
writer
struggling
with
this
sure.
B
Yeah
I
had
a
great
teacher
named
Douglas
Unger
one
time
and
he
said
I'm
I'll
try
to
recreate
it,
but
he
said
that
dialogue,
first
of
all
it
it
doesn't
have
to
sound
like
real
life
and
I
proved
this
to
myself,
One
Time
by
secretly
recording
my
mom
and
my
grandma
talking,
and
it
was
just.
Did
you
get
the
thing
on
the
no
yeah,
the
blue
red
yeah?
He
did
no,
he
did,
but
he
didn't
you
know
so
that
that
doesn't
work.
That's
always
so
very
similar
to
it.
B
Isn't
it
Doug
said
you,
you
have
to
sort
of
imagine
that
when
you
and
I
are
talking,
we
both
have.
You
know
cartoon
balloons
of
our
monkey
Minds
back
here,
we're
thinking.
So
when
you
ask
me
a
question
I
almost
never
answer
you
directly,
you
know
you
say:
oh
I'm,
not
sure
that
those
those
shoes
look
good
on
you
and
I'm
I've
been
thinking
about
humiliation
in
grade
school
and
I,
say
oh
sure,
one
more
time.
You
know-
and
you
said
no
I'm,
just
talking
about
your
shoes.
Oh
you
know.
No,
it's
fine!
B
It's
fine!
You
know
so
there's
a
kind
of
a
a
continual
miscommunication
that
comes
out
of
the
fact
that
we
both
have
our
thoughts
going
so
Doug
said
in
in
good
literary
dialogue.
People
are
always
slightly
talking
past
each
other.
It's
not
you
know.
How
are
you
I'm
fine
or
why
don't
you
love
Jim,
because
he's
too
possessive
something
about
that?
Is
you
know?
Why
don't
you
love
Jim,
I
hate
today
you
know
or
whatever.
B
So
that's
one
thing
is
to
imagine
your
characters
are
really
in
their
own
worlds
and
talking
past
each
other
and
then
the
other
thing
he
said
that
was
really
helpful.
Is
a
dialogue
is
just
a
way
to
keep
the
reader
going.
So
anything
you
can
do
to
make
it
a
slightly
mysterious
or
just
compelled
a
Reader
through
is
totally
permissible.
It
doesn't
have
to
sound
like
real
life,
you
know
and
also
it
you
know
you
should
do
it
in
a
way.
That's
again
fun.
You
know
that
you
kind
of
amuse
yourself
a
little
bit.
P
Thank
you
also,
Annie
leonta
says
hi.
B
Oh
yeah,
let
me
just
make
a
call.
No
Annie
is
amazing.
She
she
has
a
she's
a
Greek
American
background,
so
the
book
has
a
wonderful
father,
character,
who's
who's
got
a
very
pronounced
dialect,
and
so
the
name
of
the
book
is,
let
me
explain
you
yeah
I
won't
tell
her,
though
you
can
just
yeah
all.
A
Before
we
take
the
next
question,
when
I
was
in
college,
I
was
in
a
playwriting
class
and
I
had
to
write
a
play
and
I
wrote
a
play.
Had
dialogue,
a
story
Etc
and
the
comments
back
from
the
professor
were
the
story
is
soapy,
the
characters
are
sappy,
so
it
was
a
little
harsh
yeah,
but
but
anyway,
but.
B
E
My
question
is
actually
similar
to
that
talking
about
soapiness
or
sappiness
might
be
a
bit
too
ambiguous,
but
in
regards
to
your
students,
but
also
extending
to
yourself
and
contemporary
writers
in
general.
E
Do
you
get
a
sense
of
underlying
sentiment
that
this
generation
or
writers
at
this
time
have
in
their
treatment
of
sincerity
and
irony,
and
how
do
you
attack
kind
of
doing
concepts
of.
D
B
Yeah,
you
know
what's
funny:
I
keep
every
time
when
I
go
to
teach,
I,
think
okay,
this
generation
I
have
to
figure
them
out,
and
they're
kind
of
I
mean
they're,
it's
the
same.
Actually
I
mean
since
I
was
in
grad
school.
This
idea
of
sincerity-
and
irony
has
been
you
know
on
either
side
of
the
scale
same
with
humor
and
serious
experimental
and
realistic.
B
So
I
don't
really
see
a
big,
a
big
Trend,
I
I,
just
think
each
person
has
a
mix
of
sincerity
and
irony
that's
comfortable
for
them,
so
mostly
what
I'm
doing
is
line
editing
them
and
just
trying
to
adjust
the
mix
a
little
bit
or
sometimes
trying
to
trying
to
urge
them
to
bring
forth
something
that
they've
been
suppressing.
B
I
had
a
student,
wonderful
student
who
was
from
a
really
rough
background,
really
poor
and
was
very
ashamed
of
it
and
didn't
want
to
talk
about
it,
but
we
talked
a
little
bit
so
I
knew
one
of
his
stories.
B
There
was
just
a
moment
that
was
so
electrifying
to
me
anyway,
and
it
was
just
a
moment
where
the
character
goes
in,
to
use
the
bathroom
and
the
sink
spigots
don't
work,
because
it's
a
very
cheap
rental,
so
the
character
just
without
even
thinking
about
it,
reaches
over
and
grabs
the
shower
nozzle
and
brings
it
in
which
is
what
they
do
in
their
house.
You
know,
and
everybody
in
the
class
has
something
beautiful
about
that
moment
and
I
knew
that
that
was
the
first
time
he'd,
let
that
come
forward.
B
So
working
with
someone
like
that
you're
not
really
thinking
sincerity
but
you're
thinking.
Let
let
me
let
him
know
that
that's
working,
you
know
so
the
next
time.
He
feels
that
urge
he'll
feel
feel
confident
to
bring
it
forward.
So
it's
it's.
The
beauty
of
Syracuse
is
I.
Only
have
six
people
in
a
class
in
the
workshop,
so
I
can
kind
of
get
to
know
them
on
the
sly
a
little
bit
and
then
can
do
that
in
the
editing
you
can
sort
of
say
bring
this
up
a
little
bit.
Don't
be
afraid
of
that?
B
B
Oh
sure,
well,
I
mean
one
thing
that
about
engineering
yeah
right
for
me.
It
got
me
into
the
world
because
I
had
a
geophysical
degree
and
I
got
to
go,
live
in
Asia
for
two
years,
which
was
just
a
mind
blower
in
terms
of
my
understanding
of
of
class
and
culture
and
stuff.
Like
that-
and
you
know,
Vonnegut
was
an
engineer
so
I
think
I
think
it's
just
a
way
of
thinking
systematically
sometimes
can
work.
B
So
yeah
I
think
it's
it's
it's
anything
you
can
actually
anything
you
can
do
to
get
you
out
of
the
sort
of
standard.
Creative
writing.
Groove
is
interesting
to
go.
I'll
get
letters
sometimes
from
Young
Writers
who
say
I'm
selling
out
I've
got
a
job
like
which
job
oh
I,
I,
I,
I,
paint,
billboards
wow,
you
know
or
I
work
for
an
ad
agency.
I
said
just
that's
great.
You
know
to
get
to
to
learn
something
about
our
culture.
B
That
none
of
us
knows
is
wonderful,
so
math
and
science
is
a
great
way
to
get
behind
the
screen.
A
little
bit.
I
think
you
know,
plus
you
can
earn
a
living.
You
know,
which
is
I
mean
really
I
mean
that's
one
thing,
my
students
we
have
in
the
third
year.
We
always
have
a
big
talk
about
this
because
I
say
you
know
you're
going
out
into
the
world
again.
If
you
want
to
protect
your
talent,
you
have
to
find
out.
Was
it
right
talking
deeply
to
yourself?
B
A
Okay,
so
as
we
wrap
and
get
ready
for
the
book,
signing
I
want
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
libraries.
Here
we
are
in
the
library
and
have
a
great
crowd
here
this
evening.
You.
A
B
There
was
one
moment:
well,
two
one
is
when
I
was
a
kid
in
Chicago,
My
grandmother
used
to
make
a
big
ritual
of
taking
us
to
this
little
Chicago
library
and
just
I,
just
remembered
that
was
reverent.
You
walked
in
you,
be
quiet
and
you
could
smell
the
old
book
smell
and
the
heavy
wooden
tables
and
the,
and
so
that
was
there's
something
that
you
know.
Grown-Up
was
saying
this
is
a
place
of
seriousness
and
and
if
you
play
your
cards
right,
you
could
grow
into
it.
B
Then
years
later,
I
was
really
struggling
with
right.
I
was
working
as
a
roofer.
Wasn't
writing
very
well
all
the
things
that
the
Young
Writers
said.
I
was
experiencing
all
those
like.
Why
do
I
do
this
and
I,
but
I
had
never
read
new
work.
I'd
only
read
Hemingway
Faulkner,
Dostoevsky
dos
pasos,
so
I
thought.
Okay,
maybe
maybe
I
should
just
try.
You
know.
Well
in
those
days
there
was
nowhere
that
you
could
go
to
read
new
work
except
the
library,
so
I
went
to
the
Chicago.
B
B
Approximately
and
I
just
sat
there
I'm
such
a
beautiful
story,
and
it
was
in
a
world
that
I
knew
so
it
was
the
first
time
that
a
story
in
my
life,
intersected
and
I
could
see
the
exaggerations
and
the
you
know,
and
I
just
remember
sitting
in
my
face
was
so
hot
I'm
like
oh
you're
such
an
idiot.
You
know
why
did
you
wait
this
long,
but
but
it
wouldn't
have
happened
unless
I
knew
where
to
go
and
I,
and
it
was
a
beautiful
Summer
Afternoon.
D
A
A
woman
who
would
come
in
there
every
day
and
drink
coffee
or
smoke
cigarettes,
and
it
was
like
her
place
to
be
yes
because
of
wherever
she
was
in
her
life.
That
was
the
constant
right
and
my
staff
and
I
were
thinking
about
the
library.
Is
that
as
well
I
mean
it's?
It's
open
people
can
come
here.
You
can
come
here
from
any
Walk
of
Life
any
economic
background
and
it
opens
eyes
and
doors,
and
it
was
just
a
nice
A
little
connection.
Yes,.
A
That
I
felt,
when
you
know,
when
you're
thinking
about
your
hometown
and
A
Book,
Like,
The,
Dubliners
and
and
the
stories
it
conjures
for
each
of
us
yeah,
regardless
of
where
we
came
from
that
to
me,
was
a
real
connection.
Yeah.
B
And
that
that
woman,
this
a
restaurant
was
called
chicken
unlimited
and
the
motto
was
chicken.
Unlimited
doesn't
stop
at
chicken
very
okay,
it's
like
a
like
a
Zen
Cohen,
you
know,
but
this
woman
would
she
had
been
divorced
and
she
was
having
a
lot
of
issues.
So
she'd
come
into
the
restaurant
four
or
five
times
a
day,
smoke
three
or
four
packs
of
cigarettes
and
have
six
or
seven
Pepsis
in
each
sitting,
then
she'd
go
to
her
apartment
and
call
for
a
delivery.
For
me,
I
was
a
delivery.
B
Guy
yeah
bring
her
and
so
and
her
apartment
had
no
furniture.
You
know
so
it
was
an
early
experience
of
just
seeing
that
she
was,
as
you
say,
she
was
coming.
There
I
think
desperately
looking
for
connection
of
some
kind
and
I,
don't
think
we
gave
it
to
her.
I
mean
we're
teenagers,
you
know,
but
the
regularity
did
and
the
sense
that
she
in
that
place
she
was
a
citizen
yeah.
She.