►
From YouTube: War Against War: The American Fight for Peace 1914-1918
Description
Author Michael Kazin discusses his new book, War Against War: The American Fight for Peace 1914-1918. The book details the untold story of the movement that came close to keeping the United States out of the First World War. Recorded at the Arlington Public Library in January 2018.
A
Good
afternoon
my
name
is
Michelle
Fernandes
and
I
am
from
the
department
of
programs
and
partnerships
here
at
Arlington,
Public
Library.
Thank
you
all
so
much
for
joining
us
today
to
hear
Michael
Kaizen
discuss
his
book
war
against
war,
the
american
fight
for
peace
1914
to
1918
a
special
thanks
to
the
Friends
of
the
Arlington
Public
Library,
whose
incredible
generosity
funds
all
of
our
library
programming,
including
bringing
fantastic
speakers
like
the
one
we
are
about
to
see.
Mr.
A
Kay's
ins
appearance
is
part
of
an
ongoing
library,
wide
commemoration
of
the
centennial
of
World
War,
one
of
which
2018
is
the
final
year
join
us
in
March
for
a
reading
of
World
War,
1
poetry.
Here
in
Central,
Library
auditorium
featuring
Arlington
poet,
laureate
Katherine
young
there
are
fliers
outside
and
as
always,
you
can
visit
us
online
at
library,
Arlington,
Va
US
and
follow
us
on
social
media.
For
the
most
current
listing
of
upcoming
library
programs.
A
A
Kay's
ins,
previous
books
include
American
dreamers
how
the
Left
changed
a
nation,
a
godly
hero,
the
life
of
William,
Jennings,
Bryan,
America
divided
the
Civil
War
of
the
1960s,
which
he
co-authored
with
Maura
Maurice
is
Herman
the
populist
persuasion
in
American
history
and
Baron's
of
labor,
the
san
francisco
building
trades
and
union
power
in
the
Progressive
Era,
which
was
named
one
of
the
best
books
of
2000
by
the
Washington
Post.
In
addition,
mr.
A
Kaizen
is
editor-in-chief
of
the
Princeton
encyclopedia
of
American
political
history,
co-editor
of
the
anthology
Americanism,
an
editor
of
in
search
of
progressive
America.
Mr.
Kaizen
has
contributed
to
the
Washington
Post,
the
nation,
democracy,
the
New
York
Times,
Book,
Review,
Foreign
Affairs
among
many
other
publications
and
websites.
A
Lastly,
we
would
like
to
thank
our
partners
from
Barnes
&
Noble,
who
will
have
copies
of
the
book,
both
in
hardcover
and
the
newly
released
paperback
for
sale.
Additionally,
war
against
war
is
in
the
Library
catalogue
in
both
hardcover
and
downloadable
audio
book
formats.
So,
if
you
have
not
yet
read
it,
you
can
also
request
it
with
your
library
card.
There
will
be
time
at
the
talk
for
a
question-and-answer
session
and
to
have
your
book
signed
and
without
further
ado.
Please
join
me
in
welcoming
Michael
Keaton.
Oh.
B
Thank
you
very
much.
Can
you
be
okay,
thanks
to
the
Friends
of
the
library
we
should,
you
know,
keep
keep
libraries
going
as
long
as
possible.
I'm
always
afraid
this
cyber
world
is
somehow
will
be
reading
on
our
own
in
our
homes
or
on
the
streets
somewhere
and
not
go
to
libraries,
and
that
would
be
a
real,
a
real
shame.
B
This
is
a
talk
about
my
book,
which
is
a
book
about
the
Americans
who
opposed
to
over
1
why
they
opposed
it,
what
they
do
to
oppose
it,
what
happened
to
them
why
they
lost,
but,
of
course,
I'm
more
than
willing
to
talk
about
the
history
of
the
war.
More
generally,
I
will
make
passing
reference
to
it
and
my
talk,
but
you
know
it
was
a
very
big
war.
The
Great
War,
as
it
was
called
at
the
time
and
in
40
minutes
of
smoke
I
can
hardly
handle
everything
so
feel
free.
B
Please,
to
ask
any
questions
you'd
like
to
about
the
war
more
generally,
especially
you
as
part
of
the
war
which
I
know
a
lot
more
about
than
I
do
say.
The
Eibon
empires
part
in
the
war
I
want
to
start
where's.
My
clicker
I
want
to
start
by
showing
you
photos
of
for
the
leaders
of
this
movement
against
the
war,
which
is
a
coalition
between
people
in
Congress
and
people
outside
Congress,
who
at
first
tried
to
stop
the
United
States
from
preparing
to
fight
in
the
war
by
enlarging
the
American
military,
especially
the
US
Army.
B
B
At
least
many
of
them
did
I
want
to
start
by
showing
you
photos
of
four
of
the
leaders
of
this
coalition,
which
many
ways
I
think
was
the
largest
and
most
sophisticated
opposition
to
any
war
in
US
history
until
the
Vietnam
War
50
years
later,
a
few
Americans
I
think
could
recognize
any
of
these
figures
today.
I'm
curious,
how
many
of
you
know
them?
If
you
know
all
of
them,
then
you
know
just
buy
my
book
and
you
can
leave,
but
but
I'm
just
curious.
B
So
I
will
ask
you
how
many
people
heard
of
this
guy.
Most
of
you,
okay,
he's
the
best
known
of
the
four
figures.
I'll
follow.
It
was
a
leader
of
progressive
Republicans.
He
was
from
Wisconsin,
he
was,
and
this
is
a
time
by
the
way,
as
many
you
know,
when
both
political
parties
had
left's
and
rights
within
them,
they
were
conservative
Republicans.
They
were
considered
Democrats,
they
were
more
progressive,
Democrats
and
more
progressive
Republicans.
B
Unlike
now,
when
we're
very
polarized
ideologically
between
the
two
parties,
he
was
a
leader
of
Midwestern
Republicans
from
the
Great
Plains
and
from
the
Upper
Midwest
important
faction
in
his
party
opposing
preparing
for
war
and
then
going
to
war.
Hynde
people
primitive,
crystal
Eastman.
Aha,
one
figure
back
there
crystal
Eastman
should
be
better
known,
as
should
all
these
figures
I
think
she
was
a
sort
of
organizer
extraordinaire.
She
was
an
active
suffragists,
an
active
feminist.
B
She
was
a
lawyer
on
the
sociologist
who
wrote
one
of
the
first
most
authoritative
books
about
industrial
accidents
in
America
in
1910
as
part
of
a
larger
project
called
the
Pittsburgh
survey,
where
she
found
that
a
thousand
workers
every
year,
almost
all
of
the
mail
died
in
industrial
accidents
in
Pittsburgh
alone.
No
one
ever
counted
how
many
people
had
died.
B
Industrial
accidents
before,
but
her
major
cause
from
1915
on
was
organizing
two
of
the
largest
and
institutions
of
the
anti-war
coalition
won
the
American
Union
against
militarism,
which
she
was
a
leading
organizer
in
the
other
one.
The
women's
peace
party,
which
she
was
a
head
of
New
York
contingent,
the
large
contingent
of
that
peace
party
Jenny
Adams.
The
great
social
reformer,
was
the
president
of
the
peace
party
altogether.
B
How
about
this
guy
Morris
he'll
quit?
Ok,
one
person
usually
other
than
anybody
who
knows
him
well
quit
was
where
the
leaders,
the
Socialist
Party
America
of
America.
At
a
time
when
the
Socialist
Party
was
as
strong
as
it's
ever
been
in.
American
history
had
a
hundred
twenty
thousand
members
at
its
height
around
this
time.
He
was
born
in
Latvia.
He
was
a
immigrant
from
the
Tsarist
Empire.
His
first
language
was
German.
B
His
second
language
was
Russian
history,
languages,
English
and
he
learned
Yiddish
the
language
of
most
Jewish
immigrants,
which
he
was
one
of
when
he
came
to
United
States,
because
he
wanted
to
communicate
with
the
people
he
worked,
for.
He
was
a
labor
lawyer
for
the
garment
workers
unions,
but
for
this
coalition
he
was
most
important.
As
the
man
who
wrote
most
of
the
statements
the
Socialist
Party
put
out
opposing
the
war.
He
also
ran
in
1917
in
the
fall
Vega.
B
Seventeen
six
months
after
US
had
entered
World
War
one
for
mayor
of
New
York
City
on
explicitly
anti-war
platform.
At
a
time
when
he
could
have
gotten
arrested
for
opposing
the
war
on
the
espionage
act.
He
didn't
it
didn't,
bother
him
and
he
got.
22%
of
the
vote
came
in
third,
but
it's
quite
remarkable.
At
six
months
after
the
u.s.
entered
World
War
one,
an
explicitly
socialist
anti-war,
anti
D
F
candidate
could
win
almost
a
quarter
of
the
vote.
B
B
He
was
the
House
Majority
Leader
for
the
whole
period
of
the
war.
Let
me
oppose
the
war
and
he
ended
up
being
one
of
the
fifty
Congress
people
who
actually
voted
against
going
to
war,
a
war
that
the
president's
own
party,
Woodrow
Wilson,
asked
Congress
to
declare.
So
it's
my
other
remarkable
it's
hard
to
imagine
that
happening
today.
B
One
of
the
leaders
of
the
president's
party
and
the
president
asked
for
a
declaration
of
war
opposing
him,
because
President
has
two
declarations
of
war
anymore,
but
they
did
then
well
so
these
are
for
leaders
to
in
Congress
one
leader
of
anti-war
Republicans,
one
leader
of
anti-war
Democrats
and
two
organizers,
one
of
women,
a
more
liberal
anti-war
figures,
crystal
Eastman
and
more
labor
oriented
and
socialist
anti-war
figures
that
is
are
so
quick,
well
miss
deception
about
those
who
opposed
us
going
to
war
is
that
they
were
isolationists.
I'm.
B
Sure
you've
heard
that,
before
the
only
reason
Americans
oppose
going
to
war
is
they
were
safe
behind
their
oceans.
The
Germans
were
not
going
to
be
able
to,
you
know,
send
airplanes,
they're
very
primitive
airplanes
over
here
they
have
submarines,
but
those
submarines
we're
not
going
to
be
able
to
attack.
You
know
much
beyond
the
coast
of
the
United,
States
and
and
and
unlikely
they
were
going
to
be
able
to
make
it,
of
course,
the
ocean
to
do
that
either.
B
So
that's
why
most
Americans
oppose
the
war.
Now,
that's
true
for
certainly
many
ordinary
Americans,
who
are
not
part
of
a
coalition
who
are
not
activists
opposing
going
to
war.
But
it's
not
true
of
any
of
these
figures.
I
mentioned
before
all
of
them,
especially
the
first
three
LaFollette
and
Eastman
and
he'll
quit,
worked
very
hard
to
make
and
retain
international
connections.
B
They
wanted
the
United
States
to
be
deeply
engaged
in
building
a
world
order
based
on
a
more
progressive
democracy
based
on
peaceful
cooperative
relationships
between
national
states,
and
those
misconceptions
too,
is
that
well,
most
Americans
opposed
the
war,
but
nobody
really
supported
going
to
war
until
very,
very,
very,
very,
very
near
the
time
when
the
u.s.
declared
war
that's
also
a
misconception.
B
There
was
a
well
financed.
Well,
organized
a
fairly
large
pro
war
or
coalition
as
much
as
there
wasn't
a
well
organized
and
not
as
well
financed
anti-war
coalition.
Some
of
the
members
of
that
coalition
were
here
watching
a
military
parade
and
in
the
center
there
you
probably
recognize
he
was
he
liked
to
be
known
as
Colonel
Theodore
was
well
at
this
time,
but
of
course
he
was
still
very
popular
ex-president
of
the
United
States
and
he
was
in
favor
of
building
up
the
military.
B
He
was
in
favor
of
universal
military
training
for
all
young
men,
whether
or
not
they
were
going
to
go
in
the
army
or
not.
He
thought
they
should
be
ready
to
go
on
the
army
if
the
the
government
felt
it
necessary
to
do
so.
So
there
was
a
very
active
conflict,
in
other
words
in
United
States,
from
1914
to
1917,
about
whether
you
should
go
to
war
or
not
and
and
then
after
the
US
does
go
to
war,
of
course,
Roosevelt's
one
of
the
biggest
cheerleaders.
B
In
fact,
he
even
wants
to
go
to
France
to
command
his
own
regiment,
as
he
did
in
the
war
against
Spain
in
1898,
where
he
did
lead
the
famous
Rough
Riders
in
Cuba,
but
wierdo
Wilson,
who
was
a
great
rival
of
his,
and
they
men
didn't
like
each
other
at
all,
decided
that
wasn't
gonna
happen.
Roosevelt
was
in
his
late
50s
and
Wilson
make
sure
that
Roosevelt
did
not
not
able
to
become
famous
yet
again
by
leading
a
regiment
in
in
the
Great
War.
B
Well
at
first,
when
the
great
war
began
in
August
1914,
all
Americans
pretty
much,
including
pathetic
Roosevelt
opposed
the
United
States
being
part
of
it.
Weirdo
Wilson
gave
this
speech
middle
of
August.
1914
argue
that
Americans
have
to
be
impartial
to
thought
as
well
as
action.
You
can
read
the
rest.
If
not,
he
said
the
one
great
nation
still
a
piece.
The
United
States
would
not
be
able
to
mediate
the
conflict
if
the
United
States
became
involved
in
the
war.
B
So
I
think
and
there's
a
lot
of
debate
about
this
among
historians.
How
actually
sincere
Wilson
was
in
his
in
his
neutral
feelings,
but
certainly
United
States
was
a
neutral
nation
officially
until
April
6
1917,
almost
three
years
after
the
war
began.
However-
and
this
is
my
point
of
view
and
not
the
point
of
view
of
all
historians-
one
of
the
things
historians
do
is
debate
about
the
meaning
of
history.
We
sometimes
debate
about
facts,
but
we
certainly
debate
about
the
meaning
of
those
facts.
B
My
opinion
is
that
Wilson
in
many
ways
was
never
truly
neutral.
Why?
Because
early
1915
Wilson
decided
to
allow
American
business
to
trade
with
the
Allied
powers
for
the
triple
entendre
known
at
the
time,
especially
Britain
to
France,
also
Russia
at
the
time.
But
Russia
was
hard
to
trade
with
it
was
hard
to
get
goods
food,
the
continent
at
wartime,
so
he
did
nothing
to
compel
American
business
to
stay
neutral
by
early
1915,
JP,
Morgan
and
company.
B
The
British
Navy
was
superior
on
the
North
Atlantic,
and
so
the
Germans
felt
perhaps
regrettably,
but
not
surprisingly,
that
unleashing
their
u-boats
on
shipping
going
to
the
Allied
powers,
including
American
shipping,
was
the
only
military
response.
They
could
make
the
only
way
they
could
neutralize
if
you
will
or
equalize
the
threat
from
the
world
Navy
against
them.
So
it
was
only
a
matter
of
time.
I
think
before
those
u-boat
attacks
provoked
the
United
States
into
declaring
war
now
to
give
Wilson's
due
his
choice,
to
protest
the
u-boats
and
not
to
protest.
B
The
British
blockade
of
Germany
was
not
an
irrational
one.
The
North
Atlantic,
unlike
the
North
Sea,
which
the
British
were
blockading,
was
a
lifeline
for
US
Commerce.
To
destroy
neutral
ships.
To
kill
neutral
Americans
was
a
violation
of
existing
international
law,
even
though
the
British
blockade
could
have
been
interpreted
as
violating
international
law
as
well.
B
There
was
a
sceptical
saying
at
the
time
which
may
newspapers
printed
about
the
British
blockade,
says:
Britannia
rules,
the
waves
and
waves,
the
rules,
but
also
president,
had
emotional
reasons
for
I
think
siding
with
the
British.
He
didn't
want
the
Unites
States
to
enter
the
war
until
early
1917,
but
he
also
did
not
want
the
Germans
to
win,
so
he
had
to
be
careful
what
he
did
and
what
he
said
and
also
he
was
a
lifelong
Anglophile.
B
Was
the
president
Wilson's
mother
had
been
born
in
Britain
his
greatest
political
heroes,
with
a
great
political
theorists
and
politicians,
Edmund
Burke
and
William
Gladstone,
and
the
Lake
District
in
England?
Was
his
favorite
place
on
earth
less
than
a
month
after
Europeans
went
to
war
in
the
fall
of
1914
Wilson
told
his
closest
advisor
Colonel
Edward
house,
the
German
victory
quote:
will
change
the
course
of
our
civilization
and
make
the
United
States
a
military
station.
B
So
he
wanted
both
the
warring
powers
of
both
sides
to
make
what
he
later
called
a
peace
with
that
victory,
but
he
really
couldn't
choose
not
to
care
who
won
the
war.
In
the
end,
the
American
decision
to
intervene,
but
at
a
critical
role
in
the
Allies
winning
and
we're
trimming.
The
tide
here
was
not
the
actual
fighting
US
troops
did,
most
of
which
took
place
in
the
final
six
months
of
the
conflict.
B
It
was
the
fact
that
there
were
two
million
American
dough
boys
as
they
were
called
draftees
enlisted
men
who
were
coming
to
France
by
the
summer
of
1917.
There
were
two
million
more
who
been
trained
in
training
camps
in
the
United
States,
and
so
the
Germans
decided
after
fighting
for
three
years
on
four
years
by
that
point,
almost
that
they
could
not
withstand
that.
They
could
not
defeat
that
so
the
Germans
in
the
spring
of
1918,
but
all
they
had
into
a
series
of
final
offensives
in
France
and
Belgium.
B
Those
offensives
got
440
kilometers
away
from
Paris,
but
they
failed
and
when
they
failed,
that
was
all
the
Germans
had
and
German
commanders
made
very
clear
that
they
were
doing
this
because
they
would
not
be
able
to
defeat
all
these
fresh
gung-ho
American
troops
with
the
depleted
forces
that
they
had
well.
The
two
major
German
commanders
can,
in
general,
Erich
Ludendorff
put
it
this
way.
Well,
he
started
the
what
became
the
final
German
offensives
in
1918
Ludendorff
said.
We
must
strike
before
America
can
throw
strong
forces
into
the.
B
C
B
B
B
2017,
in
which,
of
course,
men
and
women
marched
as
well
in
their
protest
against
the
incoming
Trump
administration.
But
here
it
was
a
women's
March,
because
the
idea
was
that
women
are
the
the
gender
they
would
have
said
sex
at
the
time.
We're
who
get
nothing
from
war
men
become
heroes.
Men
establish
themselves,
they
become
politicians
after
they've
shown
their
their
their
mettle
in
combat.
B
But
women
are
getting
nothing
from
war,
they
lose
their
children
and
they
lose
their
husbands
and
loser
uncles
and
they
have
to
hold
up
the
homefront
while
the
men
are
doing
the
fighting-
and
this
was
very
simple,
very
clear,
very
forceful,
anti-war
message
that
his
women
put
forth
the
leader,
the
organizer
of
the
women's
march
in
1914.
Was
this
woman
Fannie
garrison
for
large
photo
few
years
earlier.
B
She
said
to
a
newspaper
reporter
that
what
this
women's
March
was
only
a
feeble
effort.
We
have
simply
cast
a
pebble
into
the
water
I
hope
there
may
be
ever
widening
circles.
That
perhaps
will
make
men
realize
what
a
crime
it
is
to
send
thousands
of
husbands
and
fathers
and
sons
to
a
useless
slaughter.
B
Well,
the
circles
did
widen
and
fairly
quickly
by
February
1915,
a
conference
of
3,000
women
met
at
the
Willard
hotel
right
next
to
the
white
house,
downtown
DC,
to
found
the
women's
peace
party,
which
was
the
largest
women's
organization
in
America
at
the
time.
Well,
one
of
the
largest
was
woman
suffrage
sociation.
But
besides,
that
was
the
largest
women's
organization
about
40,000
members
altogether.
The
delegates
included
every
important
feminist
in
the
country
and
social
reformer
and
in
a
couple
months
later,
the
leaders
of
that
party,
including
Jane
Addams,
who
is
second
from
the
left.
B
There
went
to
the
Hague
the
capital
of
neutral
Netherlands,
to
lead
a
women's
Peace
Conference
to
try
to
get
the
neutral
nations
in
Europe,
of
which
there
were
several
Scandinavia
and
the
Netherlands,
especially
to
try
to
put
together
a
peace
plan
that
the
belligerent
nations
would
have
to
accept.
That
was
the
idea
of
at
least,
and
the
power
of
this
message
of
the
of
the
feminist
message
against
war
can
be
I,
think
demonstrated
by
the
fact
that
the
number
one
song
in
America
in
1815
was
this.
B
Pandora
or
whatever
the
ways
we
we
count
sales
these
days,
anybody
know
I,
guess:
sheet
music,
exactly
this
sold
800
thousand
copies
of
the
sheet
music
in
1915
factor
so
popular
that
there
were
Pro
war,
songs
that
were
written
in
answer
to
it.
You
know
but
I'm
proud
that
my
boy
is
a
soldier
in
fact
well
go
through
it
quickly,
some
of
the
the
growth
of
the
movement,
because
I
want
to
get
to
why
they
opposed
the
war.
B
The
American
unit
against
militarism
was
formed
a
few
months
after
that
late
1915.
These
are
two
really
important.
Reformers
of
that
day,
a
Lily
Wald
set
up
a
settlement
house
in
New
York
City.
Much
like
the
settlement
house
whole
house
that
jam
set
up
in
Chicago,
Paul
Kellogg,
who
was
the
editor
of
the
most,
was
widely
read
most
influential
magazine
of
social
reform
in
America.
At
the
time
the
survey.
B
B
Cema
Gompers,
who
was
the
president
of
American
Federation
of
Labor?
He
was
born
in
Britain
and
he
even
though
he'd
been
opposed
to
the
war
of
Post
all
wars
before
1914.
Once
the
war
began,
he
thought
United
States
we
eventually
get
into
it
and
labor
would
get
something
out
of
it
by
being
a
more
legitimate
force
if
it
supported
the
war.
B
But
the
radical
union
organization
dusty
works
in
the
world
completely
opposed
him,
and
many
major
unions
in
the
country
opposed
preparing
for
war,
United,
Mine,
Workers,
Union,
the
Carpenters
Union
and
many
others,
as
the
movement
blossom,
had
attracted
powerful
allies
in
Congress,
like
the
ones
I
mentioned
before,
for
both
major
parties,
one
of
the
most
powerful
leaders
who
was
not
in
Congress
but
had
been
and
had
what?
For
president
three
times
was
this
guy?
B
Who
I
wrote
a
biography
about
William,
Jennings,
Bryan,
Democratic
nominee,
not
just
once
or
twice
but
three
times
losing
all
three
times
you
Brian.
My
kid
said.
You
know
I
understand
why
you
want
to
ID
by
somebody
who
lost
you
know
it's
kind
of
interesting,
but
what
after
I
buy
something
to
lost
three
times
anyway?
B
But
Brian
was
the
most
popular
figure
in
his
party,
the
Democratic
Party,
except
for
President
Woodrow
Wilson,
and
he
was
especially
popular
in
Congress,
a
lot
of
people
who
had
been
Brian
eyes
before
they
were
also
nians.
If
you
will
and
he
brought
and
Claude
kitchen,
he
were
very
close,
especially.
B
And
also
there
was
a
lot
of
ethnic
opposition
to
the
war.
I
can
only
give
you
a
very
superficial
sense
of
that.
A
quick
one,
Irish
Americans
many
of
them
were
opposed
to
preparing
to
go
war
to
go
to
war
because
they
didn't
want
to
help
the
British
Empire,
which
of
course,
Island
was
still
a
part
of
the
British
Empire.
B
Many
Russian,
especially
question
Jews,
didn't
want
to
go
to
war,
to
support
the
Tsar
of
Russia,
who
still
power
until
March
of
1917
and
many
Italians
supported
their
country
in
the
war,
but
but
also
were
not
really
clear
about
what
the
Unites
States
we
get
out
of
it.
So
this
is
just
an
example
of
a
mass
meeting
war
against
war,
not
where
I
get
the
title
of
my
book
from,
but
that
that
phrase
was
used
all
the
time
to
describe
the
people.
I
wrote
about.
B
So
in
December
1815
he
charged
his
ship
Norwegian
ship
to
take
pacifists,
anti-war
figures
and
lot
journalists,
along
with
him
to
go
to
Europe.
They
Aunt
Linda
nozzle,
then
called
Christiana
the
capital
of
Norway,
and
they
hope
to
do
the
same
thing
that
Jane
Addams
and
her
sisters
tried
to
do
a
few
months
earlier,
which
is
to
set
up
a
neutral
Conference
of
neutrals
to
mediate
the
war.
B
Of
course
it
didn't
happen
and
he
was
made
fun
of
he
said,
for
example,
in
early
December,
1915,
we're
gonna
charter,
the
ship
and
we'll
we'll
get
the
boys
out
of
the
trenches
by
Christmas
three
weeks
later
unlikely,
and
so
people
talk
about
forest
folly
and
there
were
cartoons.
I
had
one
of
my
book
showing
this
ship
with
four
and
on
it,
and
a
huge
snowball
on
the
ship
as
the
ship
went
into
the
hell
of
of
the
combat
on
the
maelstrom
of
bloodshed
in
Europe.
B
What
motivated
all
these
people?
Well,
they
disagreed
about
a
lot
of
domestic
issues.
It
must
be
said
Clark.
It
was
a
favor
of
prohibition
of
alcohol,
for
example.
The
other
three
I
mentioned
were
not.
He
was
not
crazy
about
unions,
he
was
a
racist.
He
was
opposed
to
black
people
being
able
to
exercise
the
right
to
vote
the
other
three
award
anti-racist,
but
they
agreed
that
the
war
in
Europe
was
a
disaster.
B
It
was
something
that
United
States
had
no
interest
in
fighting
all
of
them
and
what
one
way
or
another
were
considered
it
at
the
time
to
be
pacifist
now,
pacifism
did
not
mean,
then
what
it
means
now
now.
Pacifism
means
you
don't
want
to
use
force
for
anything
right
for
policing.
Even
that's
not
what
I
meant,
then
what
pacifist
men
theme
was.
You
think
that
wars
are
irrational
and
you
would
like
them
to
be
mediated
or
arbitrated
by
impartial
authorities.
B
B
America
that
he
got
away
with
it
was
even
praised
for
it
at
the
time.
So
two
major
arguments
were
used
for
by
those
who
opposed
going
to
war.
First
was
quite
a
radical
argument,
and
I
mentioned
it
before
they
said
how
can
we
build
a
peaceful,
more
democratic,
more
harmonious
world
if
the
United
States
joins
the
worst
war
in
history?
B
How
can
you,
as
crystal
Eastman,
said,
prepare
for
war
and
false
of
a
peace
at
the
same
time,
arming
America,
they
fear
and
then
going
to
war
to
join
this
worst
war
in
history
would
extinguish
the
possibility
of
global
friendship,
global
harmony,
global
democracy
on
which
they
thought.
The
only
possibility
have
moved
me
on
more
dependent
and
in
that
they
agree
in
many
ways,
Woodrow
Wilson,
which
is
the
irony.
Perhaps
they
met
with
Wilson
quite
often
actually
before
the
war
was
declared
to
plead
with
him
to
support
them,
and
he
often
said
well.
B
B
Obviously
so
you
know
here
is
that
is
that
the
pro-war
movement
led
by
groups
like
the
national
security
League
and
the
Army
League,
and
the
Navy
League
wanted
to
you
know,
wanted
war
because
they
wanted
to
build
up
profits
for
munitions,
factories
and
steel
factories
and
and
factories.
They
were
making
various
kinds
of
vehicles
and
even
airplanes
and
bullets
and
army
clothing
everything
else.
B
It
was
a
crude
argument
and
we
can
argue
about
whether
they
were
accurate
at
all
about
it,
but
obviously
it
was
a
powerful
one
at
a
time
when
many
Americans
believe
that
big
business
had
too
much
power,
this
was
the
Progressive
Era
afterwards.
If
antitrust
laws
are
being
passed
when
some
laws
to
protect
labor,
organizing
whipping
past
with
the
income
tax
itself
that
amendment
63
members,
the
Constitution,
was
ratified.
So
there
was
a
lot
of
people
a
lot
of
Americans,
whether
whatever
they
thought
about
war.
B
It
was
going
on
until
there
was
a
possibility
of
war
being
declared,
they
believe
whether
they're
progressives
or
more
conservative
figures
like
or
kitchen
that
that
US,
you
know,
didn't,
need
to
go
to
this
war
and,
in
fact,
if
us
to
go
to
war
the
possibility
of
a
better
America.
However,
they
define
that
better
America
we'd
be
destroyed
and
one
of
the
more
pithy
statements
of
that
point
of
view,
I
think,
was
put
forth
in
a
speech
opposing
the
declaration
of
war
by
the
chair
of
the
Senate
Foreign
Relations
Committee.
Another.
B
B
It
was
defeated
by
the
choices
Wilson
made
that
I
mentioned
before,
and
also
by
the
kaisers
Wilhelm's
choice,
early
1917,
to
respond
to
reverses
on
the
battlefield
by
ordering
his
fleet
of
hue
boats
to
sink
any
ship,
whether
or
not
if
who
knew
Trull
colors,
which
were
carrying
supplies
to
his
enemies
as
American
ships
were
the
president
who
has
staked
the
nation's
honor
and
prosperity
on
protecting
freedom
of
the
Seas
filth.
He
had
no
choice
but
to
go
to
war.
B
He
also
had
decided
Wilson
had
that.
If
you
guys
did
not
go
to
war,
then
us
could
not
have
a
hand
in
deciding
the
shape
of
the
peace.
He
wanted
very
badly
a
League
of
Nations
Federation
of
Nations,
and
he
felt
he
couldn't
get
that
unless
the
u.s.
took
part
in
winning
the
war,
because
why
would
the
victorious
powers
listen
to
the
still
neutral
nation
they,
after
declaring
war?
Wilson
betrayed?
B
You
might
say
his
friendship
with
the
anti-war
members,
the
anti-war
coalition
and
urged
Congress
to
pass
two
of
the
most
repressive
laws
in
American
history,
the
Espionage
occupation,
17
and
the
Sedition
Act
of
1918,
which
are
actually
amendments
to
the
Espionage
Act,
which
in
effect
made
it
illegal
at
least
potentially
illegal,
to
speak
out
against
the
war
to
oppose
the
draft
which
was
started
after
u.s.
war
was
declared
as
well.
B
B
You
might
say,
by
supporting
the
cases
of
those
who
were
being
arrested
for
opposing
the
war,
conscientious
objectors
who
were
not
able
to
qualify
as
consciousness
objectors
because
they
were
not
part
of
peace.
Churches
like
the
Mennonites
and
the
Quakers
and
many
others
as
well,
and
the
major
group
which
was
behind
the
defense
of
anti-war
prisoners
was
a
group
then
called
the
National
Civil
abuse
bureau
name
might
sound
familiar
1920.
The
NCLB
changed
its
name
to
the
ACLU.
B
B
He
was
then
a
active
socialist.
He
spoke
out
against
the
war
and
Ida
wells
Barnett,
the
great
anti
lynching
activist,
who
also
spoke
out
against
the
war
and
I.
Can
you
know
talk
more
about
all
this
activism?
If
you
like,
during
the
question
period,
actually
Randolph
spent
a
lot
of
time
in
the
full
length
of
17
campaigning
for
he'll
quit
for
mayor
of
New,
York
and
he'll
forget
percentage
of
the
vote
in
Harlem,
which
was
becoming
the
capital
of
Negro
America.
We
would
recall
the
time
or
black
America,
as
we
say
today,
that.
B
There
was
also
a
very
large
opposition
to
the
draft.
I
won't
talk
about
that
just
for
a
minute
now
many
text
books
about
what
were
one
give
you
the
idea
that
the
draft
was
overwhelmingly
popular
there.
Ten
million
young
men
register
for
the
draft
without
very
much
difficulty.
They
were
gung-ho
for
the
war,
and
this
shows
supposedly
how
much
support
there
was
for
the
war.
The
open
know
tell
you
that
ten
million
men
registered,
but
three
million
men
who
were
Ella,
who
have
supposed
to
read.
B
B
Well,
finally,
what
was
the
results
of
the
war
very
quickly?
First
of
all,
the
I
states
won
not
just
militarily
but
economically,
the
United
States,
unlike
European
nations,
which
whose
economies
were
destroyed
many
ways
because
of
the
war.
United
States
economy
was
booming
as
a
during
the
war
and
only
took
a
slight
recession.
After
the
war
was
over,
the
United
States
became
as
result
of
the
war,
the
most
prosperous
nation
in
the
world.
B
That's
the
harmonious,
peaceful
democratic
world
that
the
peace
movement
wanted
to
would
come
to
pass.
Well,
we
know
that
didn't
happen.
What
happened,
of
course,
20
years
later,
was
a
much
worse.
Much
greater
war
will
were
won,
killed
about
seventeen
million
people,
world
war,
two
killed,
50
million
people,
Wilson
went
to
Paris
1919
as
a
great
hero,
because
it
was
great
idealistic
purposes
that
he
spoke
for,
but
the
peace
treaty
he
signed
in
Paris
was
not
ratified
by
the
Senate.
B
B
So
I'm
curious
to
hear
what
you
think
about
you
know
what
I
said
about
the
war
about
whatever.
Yes,
sir,
would
you
speculate
as
to
what
might
have
happened?
Had
the
Germans
not
sunk,
any
of
the
US
ships
yeah
good?
That
was
that
the
key
point
or
yeah
well,
that
was
actually
key,
I
mean
clearly
the
only
casas
Bella.
The
only
cause
of
war
that
Wilson
could
claim
was
the
fact
that
American
ships
were
being
what
being
some
neutral.
Ships
will
be
shut
sunk
by
a
belligerent
power,
I
mean
that
was
against
international
law.
B
Clearly,
even
the
United
States
was
carrying
material.
You
know
I'm,
not
a
lawyer,
maybe
some
of
the
people
in
the
room
are
but
but
at
the
time
it
was
completely
legal
for
a
neutral
country
and
the
ships
of
a
neutral
country
to
ship
war
materiel
to
one
side
or
both
sides.
For
that
matter,
and
of
course
I
mentioned,
the
US
did
that
from
1980
fifteen
on
until
two
years
later,
when
the
u.s.
declares
war
I
can
think
continues
to
that.
B
But
it
was
not
legal
for
a
government
to
stew
to
shoot
down
those
ships.
You
know
so
Wilson
could
claim
that
you
know
he
was
obeying
the
law
and
also
you
know,
Americans
were
being
killed.
The
famous
the
first
famous
example
of
that,
of
course,
was
the
the
Lusitania
torpedoed
in
in
April
1915,
through
May
1915,
with
a
hundred
and
twenty
something
Americans
on
board
who
died,
Oh,
more
onboard
120
something
died,
but
the
US
did
not
go
to
war.
B
Then
there's
go
to
war
two
two
years
later,
but
once
the
US
was
the
Germans
decided
in
February
1917
to
resumed
unrestricted
u-boat
warfare.
They
have
been
abiding
by
a
complicated
arrangement
for
about
a
year
before
then
called
the
Sussex
base
in
the
Sussex
play
John
based
on
a
ship
which
had
been
sunk,
they
sixteen
and
they
go
back
on
that
pledge,
and
it's
only
then
that
it
becomes
I,
think
pretty
inevitable
of
the
United
States
would
go
to
war.
What
happened
if
they
hadn't
done
that?
It's
a
good
question.
B
You
know
it
would've
been
harder
to
get
Americans
on
on
the
side
of
the
war.
We
were
harder
to
get
large
majorities
in
Congress
to
support
the
war
I'm,
not
sure
whether
Wilson
would
have
asked
for
declaration,
and
then
we
have
to
go
towards
the
greater
counterfactual
as
historians.
Call
it.
What
if
the
Germans
won,
you
know
and
that's
of
course
historians
not
supposed
to
ask
those
questions.
You
know
we're
supposed
to
figure
out
why
what
happened
happened
not
what
would
have
happened
if
what
happened
happened.
B
If
what
happened
didn't
happen,
but
you
know
I've
done
some
of
that.
I
wrote
an
op-ed
in
New
York
Times,
the
hundredth
anniversary
of
the
declaration
of
war
ia
predicts
which
did
speculate.
You
know
what
would
have
happened
if
the
US
hadn't
into
the
war
and
the
Germans
at
one
I'll
do
a
little
bit.
Here,
though,
you
know
you
might,
if
your
historian
to
the
crowd,
you
might
not
like
it.
B
You
know
I
think
it's
quite
possible
that
the
Germans
win
they
dominate
Europe,
but
they
don't
tell
me
that
Europe
the
way
Hitler
did
or
try
to
you
know
they
dominate
Europe,
where
the
government,
which
is
semi
democratic.
The
Germans
had
a
elected
government
elected
parliament,
the
Reichstag,
the
largest
party
of
which
was
actually
a
socialist
party,
the
Social
Democratic
Party
of
Germany.
B
B
There
still
would
have
been
a
lot
of
tension
between
the
Bolsheviks
and
the
Germans,
but
it's
unlikely
you
would
have
had
the
rise
of
of
the
National
Socialist
Movement,
which
was
led
as
most
you
know,
by
disgruntled
German
soldiers
like
Hitler,
who
have
been
a
soldier
in
World
War
one
had
been
wounded
in
World
War,
one
whose
main
grievance
when
they
formed
the
party
was
we
were
stabbed
in
the
back
by
Jews
and
socialists.
We
could
have
kept
fighting,
but
they
made
us
give
up.
You
know
so
it's
possible,
though
we'll
never
know
for
sure.
B
If
the
US
doesn't
have
to
one
the
Germans
win
and
we
don't
get
World
War
two
again,
you
know
Saturday
Night
Live
used
to
have
an
old
routine.
You
know
20
years
ago.
So
what
if
Eleanor
Roosevelt
could
fly
so
ask
these
questions.
It's
kind
of
a
word
of
element
was
was
was
well,
could
fly
questions,
but
you
know
what's
worth
speculating
about,
and
other
stories
have
done
this
to.
Of
course,
yes,
sir,
if.
C
B
Also
forth,
that's
a
great
question.
There
I
dressed
that
the
first
chapter
in
my
book,
of
course
the
prologue
of
the
book
actually
because
you
know
they've
been
a
peace
movement
in
America
earlier
I
mentioned
William
Lloyd
Garrison
I
mean
there
was
this
non
resistance
movement
before
were
well
before
the
Civil
War.
B
There
was
a
important
but
I,
think
limited
movement
called
the
anti-imperialist
league,
which
opposed
to
taking
the
Philippines
so
William
James
Bryan
when
he
ran
for
president
second
time,
1900
in
effect
was
it
was
endorsed
by
the
Einstein
peerless
Lee,
because
he
was
opposed
to
u.s.
conquest
of
the
Philippines,
and
there
was
a
more
elite
movement
from
the
late.
B
You
know,
1880s,
which
I
talked
about
involving
international
lawyers
involving
college
professors
involving
people
from
the
peace
churches,
which
we're
trying
to
work
out
some
grand
mediation
arrangement
where
we're
all
wars
to
be
mediated
one
way
or
another
by
some
international
tribunals
and
the
other
having
peace
conference,
isn't
Hague,
for
example,
that
start
1899.
That
was
her
first
Peace
Conference
in
the
hague
and
included
at
one
point
at
these
peace
conference
I
think
was
one
in
1907.
B
B
You
know
the
current
the
Carnegie
Endowment
for
peace,
which
is
big
building
in
DC,
began
in
1910
under
Carnegie,
one
of
the
most
when
the
richest
Americans
in
the
world,
endowed
it
with
ten
million
dollars
of
his
own
money,
which
was
equal
to
about
two
hundred
three
hundred
million
dollars
today,
and
he
was
very
much
in
favor
of
these
one
kind
of
proposal
or
another
to
bring
about
a
more
peaceful
world.
Of
course,
this
got
this.
This
movement
got
disrupted
and
divided
when
u.s.
goes
to
war.
B
Excuse
me
when
Europe
goes
to
war,
because
a
lot
of
those
people
had
supported
we're
pro
British
and
they
could
not
stand
the
sidelines
saying
the
British
were
wrong.
When
the
British
go,
it's
for
the
war,
Andrew
Carnegie
was
from
Scotland,
as
you
probably
know,
and
he
was
distraught
when
u.s.
goes
to
war
when
Britain
goes
to
war,
but
he
can't
really
oppose
it.
So
it's
really
only
in
1914
when
the
anti-war
movement
becomes
a
mass
movement,
I
think
as
I
discussed
before,
then
it
was
more
or
less
not
exactly
professional
activists.
B
That's
a
little
unfair.
There
were
people
who
devoted
themselves
to
it.
Jane
Addams
wrote
a
book
called
new
ideals
of
peace
in
1906,
which
he
floated
ideas
of
how
to
bring
about
a
more
peaceful
world,
but
it
was
mostly
male.
It
was
mostly
very
well-to-do,
well-educated
people
who
were
part
of
it
trying
to
work
out
these.
You
know
complicated
plans
for
eternity
mediation.
B
Great,
it
was
booming;
well,
it
was
complicated,
I
mean
it
depended
on
who
you
were
depending
on.
You
know
what
your
politics
were.
Of
course,
there
were
there's
group
of
the
nonpartisan
League
you
might
have
heard
of
which
was
a
fairly
radical
movement
began
admitted
in
North
Dakota.
It
spread
to
Wisconsin
and
Minnesota
Montana.
Are
the
farming
states
in
opposed
going
to
war,
oppose
preparedness
and
1917
that
a
huge
convention
in
st.
Paul
Minnesota
and
they
invited
the
follow
up
to
speak
in
LaFollette,
gave
a
speech
where
he
basically
said.
B
You
know
we
shouldn't
go
into
war
and
he
was
almost
expelled
from
the
Senate
for
saying
that-
and
this
was
a
group
of
farmers-
these
were
small
farmers
almost
entirely
part
of
that.
At
the
same
time,
you
know
farmers
who
were
didn't
have
a
strong
opinion
about
the
war
when
they
saw
you
know
the
price
of
corn
or
wheat.
You
know
almost
doubly
yeah.
There
wasn't
unhappy,
you
know,
obviously,
and
ironically,
in
1920s,
which
was
a
prosperous
period
in
America's.
B
A
whole
was
a
period
of
recession
in
the
farm,
because
a
lot
of
people
put
all
these
acres.
All
these
acreage
to
cultivation
and
then
the
market
wasn't
as
big
as
it
had
been
during
the
war.
The
Parkers
immigration
was
actually
limited.
That's
another
story,
so
you
know
there
was.
It
was
a
real
mix.
I
think
you
know.
Farmers
were
not
just
farmers.
Of
course
they
were
Republicans
socialists,
some
Democrats,
etc.
So
it
really
depended
on
where
you're
from
and
what
your,
which
allegiances
were
I,
think
going
into
the
war.
B
Now
it's
really
true
that
there
were
some.
Some
farmers
were
best
described
as
isolationists.
They
throw
out
hair.
Here
we
are
Here,
I
am
in
Iowa
I'm,
not
gonna,
be
touched
by
this
war.
That's
certainly
true,
but
welcome
to
get
to
America
was
a
very
immigrant
nation
back
then
hundred
years
ago,
still
still
I
won't
make
any
comments
about
the
prisons
music
comment
about
that.
B
But
you
know
I
think
people
came
from
all
parts
of
the
world
as
they
do
now,
but
more
from
Europe
and
elsewhere
and
of
course,
farmers
were
German,
American
Norwegian,
American,
Irish,
American,
British
American
some
gave
Canada
and
so
forth,
and
northern
New
England
some
were
from
from
Quebec.
So
that
had
a
lot
to
do,
I
think
with
how
they
felt
about
the
war
as
well.
B
B
The
move
to
the
cities
in
the
census,
for
the
first
time
in
1920,
said
a
majority
of
Americans
for
the
first
time
in
American,
history
live
in
urban
areas,
which
only
meant
places
2,500
people
or
more,
not
very
big,
but
a
lot
of
people
came
from
the
farms
went
to
the
army
did
not
go
back
to
the
farms
they
they
went
to
the
cities.
So
anyway,
that's
a
long
answer
to
your
to
your
good
question.
Any
other
questions
we'll
put
one
expert
question.
C
C
The
first
week,
April
yeah
and
in
between,
of
course,
as
there
is
the
resumption
of
unrestricted
submarine
warfare
and
then
also
the
publication
of
the
Zimmerman,
where
Jeremy
proposes
an
alliance
against
the
United
States
with
Mexico
and
return
to
Mexico
territory
in
the
southwest.
So
it
does
Wilson
come
to
the
war
position
on
his
on
his
through.
His
own
reasoning
is
he's
carried
along
by
congressional
opinions.
He
carried
along
by
a
shift
in
public
opinion,
what
shapes
his
thinking
in
between
November
and
April
yeah.
B
Well,
that's
surprisingly,
historians
disagree,
as
I
said
before.
I
think
he
was
more
inclined
to
want
to
go
to
war
if
he
couldn't
mediate
a
peace.
Now
after
he
was
elected
in
November
1916,
there's
a
fascinating
period
of
about
a
month
where
he
puts
out
peace
feelers
to
the
belligerent
powers.
It
says
basically
I'm
willing
to
mediate.
What
are
your
peace?
Give
me
your
your
conditions
for
for
being
about
peace
and
the
Germans
give
them
some
conditions.
The
British
talk
about
giving
conditions.
Don't
really
the
conditions
are
completely,
you
know
impossible
on
both
sides.
B
You
know
each
side
says
well
give
us
what
we
want
and
we'll
give
up
will
win.
Basically,
if
you
forgive
us
victory,
we
won't
keep
fighting
for
it
and
then,
but
as
late
as
January
22nd
1917.
He
give
this
amazing
speech,
which
I'm
sure
you
know
called
the
peace
for
that
victory
speech
where
he
spends
stands
in
front
of
a
joint
session
of
Congress
and
says
we
want
a
peace
with
that
victory,
we
think
all
sides
should
figure
out
ways
to
come
together
and
I
will,
in
effect,
help
them
to
do
this.
B
He
didn't
know
that
two
weeks
before
the
Kaiser
had
agreed
to
resume
the
unrestricted
u-boat
warfare
which
backs
begins
February
1st
1917
I.
Think
after
that
point
he
he'd
like
to
find
some
way
short
of
war
to
force
the
Germans
to
stop.
You
know
he
supports
that
nickel
armed
neutrality,
which
is
putting
naval
Gunners
on
passenger
ships
to
shoot
u-boats
if
they
can
LaFollette
actually
leads
a
filibuster
against
this
bill
in
congress,
and
it
fails
as
the
as
aggression
session
ends:
March
3rd
1917
and
then
a
couple
weeks
later
by
executive
order.
B
Wilson
puts
our
morality
into
effect,
but
I
think
and
my
friend
John
Milton
Cooper
jr.
who's
I
think
the
best
biographer
of
Wilson
points
I
think
by
fire
early
February.
He
he
thought
it
was
unlikely
us
could
sort
of
stand
by
and
while
the
Germans,
you
know,
torpedoed
American
ships
that
that
wasn't,
it
wasn't
going
to
go
over
being
with
the
public.
B
If
that,
if
that
happened
at
least
not
most
the
public
and
not
most
of
Congress
either,
so
it's
not
until
I
think
it's
a
cabinet
meeting
on
March
21st
1917
I
can
check
my
book
to
where
he
actually
asks
the
cabinet
to
tell
them
what
he
thought.
Well,
should
I
ask
for
the
collation
of
horror
and
every
single
one
says.
Yes
now
some
historians
say
well,
he
wasn't
sure
at
that
point
or
others
say
he
wanted
to
make
sure
they
were
with
him.
B
He
wouldn't
have
in
divisions
because
they
were
cabinet
members
like
the
Navy
secretary
of
the
time,
Josephus
Daniels
from
North
Carolina,
good
friends
with
Brian,
who
were
still
opposed
to
going
to
war,
good
friends
with
with
a
kitchen
who
was
still,
of
course
supposed
to
go
into
war,
voted
against
going
to
war,
as
I
mentioned
a
couple
weeks
later,
who
didn't
want
to
go
to
war,
so
he,
but
he
wanted
them
behind
him
again
and
they
all
all
the
cabinet.
Someone
luckily
agreed
only
at
that
point
officially.
Is
he
clearly
he's
for
going
to
war?
B
So
you
know,
in
other
words,
it's
complicated.
There's!
No
there's
no
Pearl
Harbor,
you
know,
there's
no
point
in
which
US
is
neutral.
Come
you
know,
though,
it's
sending
in
goods
to
the
Allies
as
we
were
in
1940-41,
but
well,
not
very
much.
Actually,
there's
a
travel.
He
acts
more
complicated,
but
but
you
know
it
was
a
gradual
process.
I
think
Zimmermann
telegram
actually
had
a
little
to
do
with
it.
I
think
I
thought
going
into
this
research
like
most
people
that
Zimmerman
telegram.
You
know
the
German
Foreign
Secretary
basically
says
to
the
Mexicans.
B
If
you
attack
the
United
States
will
help
you
get
Texas
back
and
Utah
and
New
Mexico
and
in
Arizona,
maybe
even
California,
but
most
of
the
research
on
this
most
of
the
newspaper
said.
You
know
this
is
crazy.
You
know
this
is
never
gonna
happen
and,
of
course,
he's
not
saying.
Do
it
now
he's
saying
if
we
go
to
war,
but
they
thought
this
foreign
secretary
must
be
out
of
his
mind.
You
know
Mexico
still
Mexico
still
involved
in
in
a
civil
war.