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Description
Author Tyler Anbinder discusses his most recent work, City of Dreams: The 400-Year Epic History of Immigrant New York. The talk was recorded at the Arlington Public Library in January 2018.
A
Good
evening,
everyone,
my
name,
is
Michelle
Fernandes
and
I
am
from
the
department
of
programs
and
partnerships
here
at
Arlington,
Public
Library.
Thank
you
so
much
for
joining
us
today
to
hear
Tyler
Ann
binder
discuss
his
book
city
of
dreams,
the
400
year,
epic
history
of
immigrant
New
York.
In
the
spirit
of
today's
subject
matter,
I
can
reveal
to
you
that
my
ancestors
came
to
New
York
from
Puerto
Rico,
Italy
and
various
locations
within
the
Jewish
Pale
of
Settlement.
A
We're
not
really
sure
special
thanks
to
our
partners
at
one
more
page
books
for
being
with
us
tonight
and
making
copies
of
City
of
Dreams
available
for
purchase,
join
us
and
them
on
February,
8th
at
7
p.m.
here
in
Central,
Library
auditorium.
As
authors,
Steven
Levingston
discusses
his
book
Kennedy
and
King
as
part
of
the
library's
commemoration
of
Black
History
Month.
You
can
also
visit
us
online
at
library,
Arlington,
Va
US,
and
follow
us
on
social
media
for
the
most
current
listing
of
upcoming
library
programs.
A
Our
speaker
tonight,
Tyler
Ann
binder,
is
a
professor
of
history
at
George,
Washington
University,
his
first
book
nativism
and
slavery
won
the
Avery
Craven
prize
of
the
organization
of
American
Historians.
His
second
book
5
points
won
the
New
York
City
Book
Prize
in
2001,
and
he
served
as
consultant
to
Martin
Scorsese
for
gangs
of
New
York.
His
ancestors
came
to
New
York
from
southwest
Germany,
Poland,
Ukraine
and
Russia.
A
B
All
right:
well,
thanks
for
coming
out
so
I'm
gonna
talk
for
the
next,
no
more
than
45
minutes
about
this
book
city
of
dreams,
which
is
a
history
of
immigrant
life
in
New,
York
City
from
the
first
Dutch
settlers
to
the
present
and
I
know
that
and
then
we'll
have
time
for
questions.
I
know
one
of
the
one
of
the
groups.
That's
here
tonight
is
one
of
the
library
book
clubs,
the
nonfiction
book
club,
and
when
I
talk
to
book
clubs
I'm
often
asked.
Why
did
you
decide
to
write
this
book?
So
I
thought?
B
Maybe
I
would
address
that
first
and
get
it
out
of
the
way.
There
were
two
reasons:
I
decided
to
write
this
book.
One
was
because
I
wanted
a
narrative
challenge,
I'd
written
as
Lisa
described,
I'd
written
two
previous
books
that
were
kind
of
straightforward.
One.
Looked
at
the
history
of
a
short-lived
political
party
from
its
birth
in
1853
till
its
dissolution
in
1860,
the
other
one
looked
at
the
history
of
one
single
4x6
block
neighborhood
in
New,
York
City
from
its
settling
around
1802
the
time
it
was
pretty
much.
B
B
One
little
neighborhood
I
came
up
with
so
many
great
stories
about
immigrants
who
didn't
live
in
that
neighborhood
and
as
I
collected
them
over
the
years,
I
thought
you
know.
I
just
ought
to
do
something
with
these,
and
that
was
that
was
the
other
reason.
I
decided
to
write
this
book.
So
here
so
first,
even
though
it's
a
big
book
as
you
can
see
it's
550
pages
of
text
and
then
when
you
add
the
the
footnotes-
and
you
know
we
academics-
we
have
to
have
our
footnotes
or
endnotes
to
be
exact
with
the
endnotes.
B
B
The
first
of
those
is
that
the
immigrant
experience
what
it's
like
to
arrive,
the
disorientation,
the
struggle
to
create
a
foothold
in
a
new
homeland,
the
discrimination
that
immigrants
face
and
their
eventual
adaptation
to
America
that
those
things
had
never
varied
much
throughout
American
history,
that
the
experience
the
experience
that
an
immigrant
had
in
the
1600s
isn't
that
much
different
than
the
experience
that
immigrant
has
in
the
1900s
or
even
here
in
the
21st
century.
Sure
the
the
specifics
of
it
might
be
different.
B
You
know
you
might
you
might
try
to
to
cure
your
homesickness
through
the
internet
today
versus
letters
or
newspapers
back
then,
but
that
homesickness
is
the
same,
and
so,
whereas
these
other
things
will
change
the
home
that
that
whole
idea
of
the
the
process
you
go
through
doesn't
change.
Very
much
assimilation
in
particular
is
one
of
those
elements
that
hasn't
changed
very
much
one
of
the
things
you
will
hear
a
lot
in
the
immigration
debate
today.
Is
this
idea
that
today's
immigrants
don't
assimilate?
B
Like
my
grandparents
did,
that's
often
the
way
you'll
hear
it
phrase
and
I
argue
in
the
book
that
that's
not
true
that
today's
immigrants
assimilate
exactly
the
same
way
that
your
grandparents
did
or
your
great-great
grandparents
in
part.
That's
because
we
all
overestimate
how
much
our
immigrant
ancestors
actually
assimilated
to
us.
If
we
knew
them,
they
seemed
kind
of
American.
Maybe
they
had
an
accent,
but
still
they
were
one
of
us.
B
They
were
part
of
their
family
that
were
familiar,
but
people
who
didn't
know
your
immigrant
ancestor
they're
that
accent
and
everything
else
about
them
made
them
extremely
foreign
to
them.
Made
them
seem
completely
unamerican
to
them,
and
so
it's
not
that
immigrants
assimilates
that
adult
immigrants
assimilate
so
much
today.
My
what
I
argue
is
that
adult
immigrants,
people
who
arrive
in
the
United
States
once
they're
already
adults-
they
don't
assimilate
that
much.
They
don't
assimilate
as
much
as
native-born.
Americans
typically
would
like
you
know
they.
B
They
typically
look
at
their
when
they
talk
when
they
use
the
word
home.
They
typically
mean
the
place
they
were
born.
The
foods
they
eat
are
typically
the
foods
that
they
ate
as
children.
The
songs
they
sang
are
typically
the
songs
they
sang
as
children.
The
music
they
listen
to
is
typically
the
music
from
their
homeland,
but
that
that's
always
been
the
case,
and
that
is
the
case
today,
just
like
it
was
the
case
a
hundred
years
ago,
200
years
ago
and
so
forth.
B
And
finally,
every
generation
of
of
Americans
contains
a
significant
population
that
believes
immigrants
are
a
menace
to
American
society
that
they're
fundamentally
different
than
those
from
the
past.
So
in
some
ways
I
feel,
like
you
know,
the
kind
of
reaction
you
see
to
immigrants
today.
That
is
wary.
That
is
distrustful
that
is
full
of
animus
it's
to
be
expected
because
that's
there's
always
been
a
portion
of
the
American
population.
B
That's
felt
that
way
that
feels
threatened
in
one
form
or
another
by
the
people
who
are
coming
to
the
United
States,
who
they
feel
will
change
the
United
States
in
a
way
that
they
don't
like.
So
so,
whereas
we
think
of
the
United
States
as
a
nation
of
immigrants,
which
is
accurate,
we've
always
been
a
nation
of
immigrants
that
has
had
a
significant
portion
of
the
population
that
doesn't
like
that
fact
or
doesn't
like
the
extent
to
which
that
is
the
case,
and
so
it's
kind
of
a
yin
and
yang
thing.
B
B
So
I
had
to
make
again.
This
is
in
particular
I
mentioned
this
because
of
the
people
in
the
book
group.
Who've
already
read
the
book
and
like
to
think
about
these
things
had
two
big
decisions
I
had
to
make
when
writing
the
book.
The
first
was:
how
would
I
keep
the
book
from
being
reading
like
an
encyclopedia,
because
I
did
not
want
to
write
an
encyclopedia
I,
wanted
it
to
have
a
story
with
a
beginning
middle
and
an
end.
B
Even
though
I
wouldn't
mention
all
the
groups-
and
the
second
decision
I
made-
was
that
I
would
choose
certain
immigrants
and
tell
their
stories
in
details,
and
these
exemplary
immigrants
and
I
don't
mean
exemplary
in
the
sense
that
they
were
especially
well
behaved.
But
I
mean
exemplary
because
they
literally.
B
So
even
though
it
might
sound
crazy
to
try
to
summarize
this
whole
400
year
story
in
the
next
31
minutes,
I
have
left
I'm
gonna
try
to
do
it
because,
after
all,
it
was
crazy
to
try
to
write
this
book
in
the
first
place,
but
I,
but
I
did
it
anyway.
So
I
can't
tell
you
how
many
times
I
was
told
that
when
I
would
tell
people
what
I
was
doing,
I
would
get
that.
Look
that
crazy
can't
do
that.
B
B
Don't
do
anything
else,
but,
as
was
the
case
with
many
of
these
explorers,
whenever
they
would
find
something
that
looked
like
they
could
make
some
money
off
it.
They
would
get
diverted,
and
that
was
the
case
with
Hudson.
Although
Hudson
to
his
credit,
he
did.
He
comes
to
the
North
American
coast.
He
explores
all
the
rivers
the
best
one
he
finds
the
biggest
one
he
finds
is
the
Hudson.
He
sails
up
the
Hudson.
B
B
That's
gonna
lead
me
right
to
Asia,
but
no
it
led
him
to
Albany
instead,
so
he
gets
to
Albany
where
the
river
pretty
much
Peters
out
and
there's
not
much
there
except
some
Indians
who
have
lots
of
furs,
beaver
furs
and
so
Hudson
goes
back
and
he
reports
to
the
Dutch.
This
is
what
I
found
in
the
Dutch.
Really
we
don't
care
about
these
furs
go
off.
Do
more
exploring
Hudson
ends
up,
he
does
more
explain.
B
An
amazing
thing
is
today
thanks
to
climate
change
in
global
warming,
the
place
where
Hudson
was
set
adrift,
you
can
actually
sail
through
because
the
ice
is
melted
so
much
you
can
actually
sail
through
to
Asia
now,
so
Hudson
was
actually
exactly
in
the
right
place.
He
was
just
400
years
too
early
now
the
Dutch,
the
story
of
New
Amsterdam,
is
typically
told
this
way.
B
It's
typically
told
that
New
York
gets
the
character
that
it
it
will
have
one
that's
very
accepting
of
immigrants,
because
the
Dutch
themselves
are
very
accepting
of
strangers
that
the
Netherlands
being
this
little
country
in
Europe
has
always
been
that
had
always
been
welcoming
of
people
from
other
places,
and
that's
true,
but
New
Amsterdam
was
not
that
way.
It
turns
out.
So
so
Peter
Stuyvesant,
who
ran
New
Amsterdam
for
most
of
its
history,
was
a
very
unwelcoming
kind
of
guy.
B
So
much
so
he
wanted
pretty
much
only
the
Dutch
and
nobody
but
the
Dutch,
and
if
you
were
gonna,
come
to
New
Era
man,
you
weren't
Dutch,
you
had
to
follow
very
strict
rules,
so
cyber's
his
employer
is
said
to
him.
You
know
you
have
to
accept
anybody
who
will
come.
We've
got
hardly
anyone
who's
willing
to
live
in
this
barren
wilderness.
So
Stuyvesant
agrees
to
let
other
people
live
there,
but
with
restrictions.
So
the
colony
practices,
the
religion
of
the
Dutch
Reformed
Church,
when
some
Lutheran's
from
Germany
show
up.
B
He
says
you
can
stay,
but
you
can't
practice
your
religion
and
when
some
Jew
show
up
the
same
thing,
you
couldn't
stay,
although
he
really
doesn't
want
to
let
them
stay
at
all,
but
he's
ordered
to
let
them
stay
by
his
employers.
But
you
definitely
can't
practice
your
religion
Quakers
come
and
he
won't
even
let
them
stay
at
all.
B
They
literally
are
dragged
out
of
the
colony
by
their
hair,
the
women
put
onto
a
boat
and
shipped
away,
because
Stuyvesant
wanted
a
place
that
was
very
homogeneous
and
where
it
was
clear
who
was
in
charge
and
that
that
was
the
Dutch,
but
that
didn't
last
very
long
because,
as
I
said,
the
Dutch
get
into
this
colonization
game
late
and
the
amount
of
land
they
have
is
very
small.
The
other
problem
is
that
there
aren't
very
many
people
in
Holland
who
want
to
go
to
America.
B
This
is
the
period
this
is
kind
of
the
Golden
Age
of
the
Netherlands.
With
you
know
the
great
painters
of
that
period,
scientific
invention
and
the
Dutch-
are
so
rich.
Nobody
has
a
desire
to
emigrate
because
everything's
fine,
where
they
live,
and
so
the
college
so
they're,
even
their
colony,
starts
to
fill
up
with
people
from
other
places,
especially
the
English
who
control
the
territory
north
and
east
of
Manhattan
Island,
and
so
eventually
the
English
so
overwhelmed
the
Dutch
that
the
English
decide
we're
just
going
to
expand
our
colony
and
take
New
York.
B
It's
the
best
harbour
on
the
east
coast
of
North
America
and
we're
going
to
make
New
Amsterdam
into
New
York
after
the
Duke
named
after
the
Duke
of
York
and
made
it
make
it
into
the
hub
of
our
Caribbean
Atlantic
trading
network
and
so
in
the
1660s.
The
English
sent
a
flotilla
of
naval
vessels
and
sail
into
New
York
Harbor
and
take
New
Amsterdam
from
the
Dutch
and
they
turned
it
into
New.
York.
B
Now
it's
true
at
this
point
and
here's
one
of
the
more
famous
immigrants
for
who
will
move
to
to
New
York.
It's
true
that
in
New
York
the
English
were
much
more
accepting
of
people
who
weren't
English
than
the
other
English
colonies.
So
in
New,
England
New
England
colonies,
like
Massachusetts,
were
very
much
run
by
the
Congregationalists.
B
The
Puritans
Virginia
had
it's
kind
of
elite,
but
in
New
York
they
were
more
accepting
of
other
people
in
part,
because
when
the
English
get
there,
there
aren't
many
English
in
Manhattan
and
there
are
a
lot
of
Dutch
and
they
all
stay,
and
they
you
want
them
to
stay
because
they
are
part
of
what's
making
the
city
very
successful,
so
the
English
when
they
take
over
when
they
take
over
New
York,
they
don't
go
about
doing
any
sort
of
ethnic
cleansing.
They
encourage
the
Dutch
this
day
they
let
the
Dutch
stay.
B
One
of
the
people
who
ends
up
arriving
in
New
York
as
a
result
of
that
is
Alexander
Hamilton.
So
Hamilton
is
born
in
the
Caribbean
he's
raised
in
st.
Croix.
He
works
after
he
becomes
an
orphan.
He
starts
working
for
a
trading
firm
that
does
most
of
its
business
with
New
York,
and
so
the
the
people
who
run
the
firm
will
leave
Hamilton
still
a
teenager
in
charge
of
the
Caribbean
office
of
the
st.
Croix
office
when
they
go
off
to
New
York,
to
buy
goods
that
they're
gonna
then
bring
back
to
st.
B
Croix
and
sell,
and
so
Hamilton
learns
of
what's
going
on
on
the
continent
and
when
he
becomes
famous
in
st.
Croix
for
writing
at
there's
this
big
hurricane
in
st.
Croix,
and
he
writes
a
letter
describing
the
hurricane
that
everyone
says
wow.
What
a
great
letter
who
is
this?
Who
is
the
person
who
wrote
this
fabulous
letter
and
then,
when
they
find
out
it's
an
orphan
who's,
had
no
formal
education
at
all
people,
saying?
Oh,
my
gosh,
this
guy's
he's
a
genius.
B
We
are
to
give
him
a
formal
education,
let's
send
him
off
to
the
mainland,
to
college,
and
so
that's
what
they
do
and
Hamilton
being
ambitious,
gets
to
get
to
New
York
and
he
decides
not
to
go
back
to
the
Caribbean.
He
realizes
that
that
places
like
New
York
on
the
North
American
continent
are
going
to
be
the
real
source
of
power
within
North
America
and,
of
course
he
becomes
a
supporter
of
the
Revolution
as
well.
B
It's
not
a
coincidence
that
Hamilton,
whose
parents
are
both
of
Scotch
descent
and
whose
parents
in
fact
were
both
born
in
Scotland
that
he
feels
very
comfortable
in
New
York,
because
New
York's
revolutionary
supporters
in
particular
are
very
much
especially
Scotsman
and
Scots
women.
And
so
there
is
this
kind
of
ethnic
dimension
to
the
revolution
in
a
city
like
New
York,
where,
as
the
Scots
and
the
Irish
are
very
supportive
of
the
revolution
and
English
tend
to
be
less
supportive
of
it.
I.
B
Could
talk
about
Hamilton
a
long
time,
but
obviously
I
could
talk
about
all
these
things
a
long
time,
but
we
have
to
keep
moving
so,
as
I
said,
the
Scots
and
the
Irish
are
the
two
big
supporters
of
the
revolution
in
New
York,
and
so
you
have
this.
This
continuing
changing
flow
of
immigrants
to
New
York.
B
It
becomes
impoverished
in
part
because
of
the
way
that
the
English
take
advantage
of
the
Irish
they
take
their
land,
they
exploit
it.
They
give
very
little
of
the
returns
to
the
English.
Most
of
the
land
in
Ireland
is
taken
from
the
Irish
and
given
to
English
nobility
as
prizes
for
supporting
the
king.
So
obviously,
there's
a
lot
of
resentment
of
that
in
Ireland
and
so
a
lot
of
those
resentful
people
who
remember
that
their
family
wants
own
land
and
now
has
to
rent
back
what
once
was
their
own
land
from
other
landlords.
B
Now
they're
resentful
of
that,
and
so
a
lot
of
those
people
will
go
to
America
and
some
of
them
will
will
settle
in
New
York.
As
you
move
on
in
the
1800s,
the
the
immigrants
from
Ireland
become
poorer
and
poorer,
as
as,
as
Ireland
becomes
poorer
and
poorer.
By
the
time
you
get
to
the
1840s,
a
huge
portion
of
the
Irish
population,
especially
in
kind
of
the
southern
and
western
parts
of
Ireland,
become
very
dependent
on
the
potato.
B
They
have
so
little
land
on
which
to
grow
crops,
because
Ireland's
population
keeps
growing
and
growing
that
the
Irish
become
dependent
on
the
potato,
because
the
potato
is
pretty
much
the
only
thing
they
can
grow
on
the
tiny
little
bit
of
land
they
have
that
will
feed
their
families
and
the
potato.
You
know
not
in
French
fry
form,
but
the
potato
overall
is
is
pretty
nutritious.
You
get
some
vitamin
C
from
it
and
you
can
actually
live
just
eating
potatoes,
and
that
was
how
you
know.
B
B
But
because
we
have
hot
dry
summers,
the
fungus
can't
really
thrive,
so
it
dies
off.
But
then
the
Irish
buy
seed,
potatoes
from
the
United
States
and
plant
them
in
Ireland
and
in
Ireland,
where
it
rains
all
the
time
and
it's
never
too
hot,
and
it's
always
moist.
The
fungus
thrives
and
it
destroys
the
potato
crop
in
1845
and
1846
and
1847,
and
so,
if
you're,
a
totally
dependent
on
the
potato
and
now
by
1847
90%
of
the
potato
crop
is
destroyed
by
this
fungus.
B
Five
points
is
in
what's
now
lower,
Chinatown
kind
of
where
Chinatown
meets
the
courthouse
district
in
New
York.
If
you're
familiar
with
that
and
it's
the
poorest
cheapest
place
to
live
in
New
York,
because
it
was
laid
out
over
what
had
been
a
lake
and
they
didn't
do
a
very
good
job
of
draining
the
lake
it
turned
out.
B
Now,
of
course,
I'm
talking
about
the
people
who
survived
a
good
portion
of
the
famine.
Immigrants
who
arrived
are
so
weakened
by
the
famine
that
they
died
within
a
few
years
of
arrival
and
then,
of
course,
just
in
general
in
those
people
didn't
live
very
long.
You
know
the
the
average
life
expectancy
in
in
the
1850s
was
40
years.
So
a
lot
of
these
immigrants
will
die,
but
the
ones
who
survive
they
do
fairly.
Well,
they
do
they
earn
it.
B
They
say,
earn
as
much
and
save
as
much
money
as
native-born
Americans
know,
but
still
compared
to
what
they
came
from
where
they
were
able
to
save,
typically,
nothing
at
all.
They
do
fairly
well.
This
is
an
image
of
Irish
immigrants
at
the
Emmer
datings
Bank
in
New
York,
which
was
set
up
specifically
for
Irish
immigrants,
and
these
kinds
of
images
make
the
press
because
of
the
eventually.
B
This
is
the
1880s
25
35
years
after
the
potato
famine,
the
press
starts
to
see
in
The,
New
Yorker
start
to
see
that
you
know
the
Irish
they're,
not
so
poor
as
we
thought
and
they
they
may
not
look
middle-class.
But
that's
because,
like
immigrants
in
all
periods,
they
don't
tend
to
be
conspicuous
consumers.
They
tend
to
put
every
penny,
they
have
either
in
the
bank
or
they
send
it
to
their
relatives
back
in
Ireland,
to
pay
their
rent
or
to
ease
their
retirements
and
so
I've
in
the
the
project
I'm
working
on
now
I'm.
B
Now
the
Irish
weren't,
the
only
immigrant
group
during
this
period,
the
two
groups
I
talk
about
when
I
talk
about
the
ninth
the
period
from
about
1800
to
1880
in
the
book
are
the
Irish
and
the
Germans.
The
Germans
tend
to
get
forgotten
about
in
American
immigration
history,
but
in
fact,
more
Germans
have
immigrated
to
the
United
States
than
people
from
any
other
place
in
all
of
US
history.
But
we
tend
not
to
hear
about
that
so
much
in
part.
B
That's
because
of
the
two
world
wars
where
German
after
during
and
after
which
German
Americans
did
everything
they
could
to
hide
their
German
background.
And
so,
as
a
result,
German
Americans
were
not
as
as
kind
of
effusive
with
their
German
heritage,
as
other
Americans
were
in
the
20th
century.
But
that
wasn't
the
case
in
the
19th
century.
B
Germans,
like
the
Irish,
were
often
very
entrepreneurial.
I
talk
in
the
book
about
the
Steinway
family.
They
arrive
in
New
York
as
the
stein
wegg's.
They
come
from.
A
small
German
principality
called
Braunschweig
and
Henry
Steinway
on
the
left
was
a
successful
piano
maker
in
Braunschweig,
but
the
market
for
pianos
in
Braunschweig
was
very
small
and
in
this
period
Germany
is
not
yet
United.
It's
a
confederation
of
dozens
of
small
and
big
states,
and
they
have
big
trade
barriers
between
each
one.
B
America
and
Steinway
is
very
meticulous
about
how
he's
gonna
go
about
this,
so
he
doesn't
just
come
to
America
and
open
a
piano
shop.
He
arrives
and
everybody
in
the
family
is
given
a
sign
to
get
a
job
with
a
New
York
piano
shop,
to
learn
how
the
work
is
done,
how
the
business
works
in
America.
So
everybody
gets
a
job
at
a
different
piano
works,
including
William,
I'm,
sorry,
including
Henry,
and
they
take
these
jobs
for
a
tiny,
tiny
pay,
because
they're
so
determined
to
get
these
jobs.
B
Some
of
the
shops
say
we
don't
need
anybody.
Amazing
I'll
work
for
almost
nothing,
just
in
anything
because
they're,
really
spying
on
these
other
companies,
and
so
after
working
for
more
than
a
year
and
learning
the
cost
of
the
raw
material
that
these
piano
manufacturers
have
and
the
cost
and
how
much
they
sell
them
for
and
what
the
strengths
and
the
weaknesses
of
their
products
are.
B
Now,
by
the
time
Steinway
opens
his
Factory
in
Queens,
Germans
and
Irish
are
no
longer
the
the
biggest
immigrant
groups
arriving
in
New
York
Eastern
European
Jews
are
they
tend
to
settle
in
the
same
place
that
the
Germans
had
settled,
which
was
the
place
that
will
eventually
be
called
the
Lower
East
Side
of
Manhattan,
and
by
about
1900,
when
hundreds
of
thousands
of
Eastern
European
Jews
have
settled
there.
The
Lower
East
Side
becomes
the
most
densely
populated
place
on
earth,
as
one
newspaper
reporter
put,
it
quote.
B
B
B
Now
one
of
the
things
about
the
Lower
East
Side,
the
visitors
are
often
commented
upon-
was
not
just
how
crowded
it
was,
but
how
noisy
it
was
and
we're
not
talking
about
just
your
typical.
You
know
you
think
today
urban
sounds
you
think
about
automobiles,
but
keep
in
mind
there.
There's
no
automobiles,
you
think
about
the
sound
of
you
know
the
subway.
Maybe,
but
there
was
no,
there
were
no
subways
there.
There
were
some
trains
on
the
street.
B
That
was
what
it
sounded
like
on
the
Lower
East
Side
all
day
and
even
most
of
the
night,
because
there
were
people
who
were
up
even
far
in
tonight
out
on
the
sidewalks
and
lots
of
street
vendors
as
well.
So
the
work
that
the
Eastern
European
Jews,
focused
on
in
New
York,
was
garment
work.
The
United
States
had
a
huge
demand
for
ready-made
clothing.
All
these
immigrants
who
were
coming
to
the
United
States
a
lot
of
them
are
single
men.
B
They
don't
have
women
to
sew
clothes
for
them,
so
they
need
ready-made
clothes
and
the
huge
American
middle-class
the
women
in
those
families
who
once
would
have
been
expected
to
sew
clothes
for
their
families.
They
don't
want
to
do
that
sewing
anymore
plus,
it's
considered
a
sign
of
kind
of
having
made
it
that
your
clothes
are
machine
made
and
very
regular
and
not
home,
made
and
looking
kind
of
homespun.
B
So
garment
workers
are
in
huge
demand
and
Eastern
European
Jews
fill
that
void
in
part
they're
able
to
fill
that
void
because
other
American
men
don't
want
to
do
that.
Work
because
clothing
making
is
considered
women's
work
and
beneath
men,
but
these
Eastern
European
Jews
are
willing
to
take
that
work
among
the
Eastern
European
Jews
doing
that
work
were
the
Ann
binders
from
Jalisco
of
Ukraine.
So
this
is
an
image
of
this.
Is
my
grandfather
to
Leah
and
binder.
B
After
whom
I'm
named,
he
unfortunately
died
a
couple
years
before
I
was
born,
so
I
never
met
him.
I
did
have
her
meet
my
great
aunt
Florence,
that's
her,
and
then
these
are
Julia
in
Florence's,
other
siblings
and
that's
my
great-grandmother.
So
Florence
is
the
only
one
of
these
people
who
I
ever
met.
B
The
reason
this
picture
was
taken
is
that
Julia's
father,
her
husband,
Frome,
liebe
and
binder,
came
to
America
in
1911,
and
he
did
what
was
very
common.
What
all
the
immigrant
groups
I've
described
did
throughout
American
history,
one
member
of
the
family
would
come
to
America
and
they
would
establish
a
foothold.
They
would
start
earning
money
and
when
they
had
saved
up
enough
money
they
would
then
bring
the
rest
of
the
family
over
sometimes
one
at
a
time,
sometimes
all
together.
B
B
Froy
leave
had
this
big
family
he
had
left
behind
and
they
did
not
want
to
send
them
one
at
a
time
and
really
most
of
them,
weren't
old
enough
to
work.
I.
Suppose
these,
these
great
aunts,
why
didn't
meet
could
have
gotten
jobs
in
garment
factories,
but
Jews
considered
it
uncouth
to
send
an
unmarried
woman
unaccompanied
to
America,
because
you
know
who
would
know
what
would
happen
on
the
ship,
so
foreign
lead
decides
like
most
Jews
did
they're
not
going
to
bring
the
family
over
until
they
can
afford
to
bring
them
all
over.
B
So
that
starts
in
1911.
What
happened
from
time
to
time,
though,
was
a
man
would
go
to
America.
He
would
maybe
meet
another
woman
who
he
liked
better
than
his
his
old
wife
and
he'd
abandon
his
family.
So
it
was
very
common
for
people
like
this
to
get
photos
taken
and
send
them
to
New
York
to
the
person.
Who
was
there
to
say:
hey,
don't
forget
about
us,
don't
think
about
abandoning
us
and
so
there.
B
He
can't
save
enough
money
to
bring
all
six
of
them
over
before
World
War
one
starts
and
once
World
War
one
starts
it's
both
more
expensive
to
bring
them
over
and
more
dangerous,
so
they
decide
to
wait
till
the
war
is
over,
but
who
knew
that
the
war
would
last
five
years.
So
we
had
three
of
these
pictures
in
the
first
one.
B
This
one
truly
is
very
little,
the
next
one
he's
bigger
and
by
the
third
one
he's
15
years
old,
and
so
the
family's
not
reunited
until
19
the
end
of
1923,
so
12
years
elapsed
between
the
time
one
goes
and
and
the
rest
are
reunited,
and
so
today,
chain
migration
has
become
part
of
the
news
again
because
there's
this
call
now
to
eliminate
chain
migration
because
of
the
idea
that
that
you're
bringing
family
members
who
might
be
undesirable
but
chain
migration
has
very
much.
You
know.
B
B
The
other
big
group
that
comes
in
this
period
are
Italian
immigrants,
more
Italians
come
to
America
than
any
other
group
in
the
late
19th
and
early
20th
centuries,
though
in
New
York
they're
second
to
the
Eastern
European
Jews
Italians
tend
to
do
what
my
family
did.
They
send
the
man
over
that
man
works
and
sometimes
brings
the
rest
of
the
family
over,
but
Italians
tended
to
come
when
they
were
young
men
and
they
weren't
married.
B
A
lot
of
people
come
to
America,
not
planning
to
stay,
but
then
for
one
reason
or
other
decide
to
sometimes
it's,
because
they
discover
it's
much
harder
to
earn
money
and
become
rich
in
America
than
they'd
expected
and
they're
embarrassed
to
go
back.
They
had
left
saying:
I'm
gonna
become
rich
and
come
back
Lord
it
all
over
you
and
when
they
can't
do
that,
they
don't
want
to
go
back
and
show
their
face.
In
other
cases,
they
end
up
simply
liking
America
better
than
they
had
expected.
B
So
for
all
those
reasons,
people
will
end
up.
Staying
and
so
I
think
you
can
probably
say
that
a
majority
of
Italian
didn't
start
out
as
immigrants
but
started
out
planning
to
only
stay
temporarily,
but
the
vast
majority
ends
up
permanently
and
in
order
to
help
save
money
to
buy
that
farm
and
so
forth,
they
would
live
in
conditions
like
this.
B
So
this
is
a
kind
of
a
bunkhouse
in
an
apartment
in
five
points
actually-
and
this
is
a
photo
by
Jacob
Riis
and
you
see
one
two,
three
four
five
six
people
in
the
photo
and
this
picture
believe
it
or
not-
is
of
a
12
by
12
foot
room
right.
So
maybe
your
typical
Arlington
bedroom
and
that's
six
people
and
the
photographer
Jacob
Riis
said
that
there
are
actually
13
people
sleeping
in
the
room,
but
he
is
standing
on
one
side
and
there
are
people
sleeping.
Here's,
the
seventh
person.
B
C
B
Of
my
favorite
stories,
I
tell
in
the
book
is
about
this
guy
with
the
pickaxe
here
Pascal
de
Angelo.
You
know
we
tend
often
to
think
of
these
immigrants
and
certainly
people
in
the
day.
Thought
of
immigrants
has
kind
of
uneducated
brutish
people
who
have
nothing
but
their
their
muscles
and
their
strong
backs.
Pascal
D'angela
was
a
day
laborer.
He
worked
on
in
a
train
yard
in
New
Jersey
right
across
the
river
from
New
York,
but
like
many
immigrants
he
aspired
to
something
better
than
manual
labor.
B
In
his
case
he
aspired
to
be
a
poet,
and
so
he
works
for
years
as
a
day,
laborer
in
the
rail
yard
teaches
himself.
English
goes
to
the
public
library
in
New,
Jersey
and
borrows
books
and
teaches
himself
English
learns
about
the
great
Romantic
poets
and
aspires
to
be
one,
and
he
eventually,
after
ten
years
in
America
quits
his
work
here
and
moves
to
Brooklyn
to
become
poet,
and
he
has
his
15
minutes
of
fame,
he's
discovered
and
published
and
he's
not
a
great
poet.
B
B
A
Columbia,
University
literature
professor
suggests
that
he
writes
his
a
memoir,
because
his
story
going
from
you
know
becoming
the
pickaxe
pick-and-shovel
poet
was
so
extraordinary,
and
so
he
writes
his
memoir
and
he
gets
his
15
minutes
of
fame
his
his
his
story
is
printed
across
the
United
States.
His
book
sells
well,
but
he's
very
determined
to
make
money
just
on
poetry
and
poetry.
Doesn't
pay
very
well
and
all
these
people,
these
wealthy
Italian
Americans
that
once
he
becomes
famous
say:
oh,
let
me
be
your
patron.
Let
me
pay
for
you
to
go
to
college.
B
Let
me
you
know
and
he's
like.
No
I
only
want
money
from
people
buying
my
poetry
and
publishing
it,
but
the
Great
Depression
starts,
and
there
isn't
much
money
for
this
and
he
goes
a
little
mad
and
he
ends
up
dying.
This
kind
of
sordid
impoverished
death,
where
he
has
appendicitis
and
he's
apparently
afraid
to
go
to
the
hospital
because
he
can't
afford
to
pay
for
it,
and
so
he
dies
of
something
that
really
you
shouldn't
die
of
during
the
Great
Depression.
B
You
know,
so
not
every
immigrant
story
ends
ends
as
successfully
as
you
might
hope.
Now
it's
in
that
period
in
the
1920s
and
30s
that
the
immigration
restriction
laws
that
I
mentioned
before
are
put
into
place
so
restrictions
so
that
hardly
any
Eastern
European
Jews
can
come
to
America,
hardly
any
Italians
right.
So
you
had
at
this
point
well
over
a
hundred
thousand
immigrants
from
those
places
coming
each
year
to
America.
The
new
restrictions
say
that
fewer
than
5,000
a
year
can
come
from
those
places,
so
immigration
is
pretty
much
cut
off.
B
The
only
places
that
can
send
immigrants
in
pretty
much
limited
numb
on
limited
numbers
are
Ireland
England
and
that's
pretty
much
it,
and
so
as
a
result,
and
and
there
aren't
very
many
English
or
Irish
who
want
to
come
to
the
United
States
at
this
point.
So
immigration
drops
off
to
you
know
by
well
over
ninety
percent
from
what
it
had
been
and
that's
the
case
from
1924
to
1965.
B
There
are
some
people
who
can
come
to
United
States,
who
are
kind
of
like
immigrants,
but
aren't
exactly
immigrants
and
in
this
period
in
New
York,
it's
Puerto
Ricans.
So
as
Eastern
European
Jews
stop
taking
jobs
and
garment
factories,
the
factory
owners
start
looking
for
workers
and
they
discover
that
in
Puerto
Rico
there
are
people
who
are
poor
and
who
can
come
to
the
United
States,
because
they're
American
citizens
and
there's
no
restriction
on
them
coming
at
all.
B
And
so
you
have
what's
like
an
immigration
from
Puerto
Rico
to
New
York
and
a
huge
number
of
Puerto
Ricans
come
into
the
United
States,
but
they're,
not
exactly
immigrants,
because
there
are
already
Americans.
Their
experience
is
very
much
like
immigrants,
but
it's
not
legally
like
immigrants,
because
they
don't.
You
know
they
don't
have
this
Ellis
Island
experience
of
having
to
kind
of
run
the
gauntlet
and
be
accepted
into
America.
They
can
come
and
go
as
they
please.
So
I
talk
about
Puerto
Ricans
in
the
book,
but
not
as
much
as
some
other
groups.
B
People
start
coming
United
States
from
places
that
Congress
did
not
expect
what
Congress
expected
when
they
repealed.
Those
restrictions
was
that
Italians
and
Eastern
European
Jews
would
come
again,
but
instead
people
start
coming
from
other
places,
typically
places
where
the
United
States
military
had
gotten
involved
and
given
people
a
taste
of
what
Americans
were
like
the
United
States
Army
had
occupied
the
Dominican
Republic
several
times
in
the
20th
century,
and
so
when
these
immigration
laws
are
eased
Dominicans
start
coming
to
New,
York
and
large
numbers.
B
Their
Lower
East
Side
is
Washington
Heights
here
around
the
George
Washington
Bridge,
one
of
the
most
famous
of
the
Dominican
immigrants
in
New
York
is
Oscar
de
la
Renta.
The
fashion
designer
he's
not
a
typical
Dominican
immigrant
by
any,
but
hehe
I
tell
his
story
in
part,
because
what
you
have
from
the
Dominican
Republic,
like
you
have
from
a
lot
of
places,
is
not
just
poor
people
coming
to
the
States,
but
a
lot
of
middle-class
people
and
Americans
tend
to
think.
B
Oh,
a
country
must
be
sending
their
poorest
people
to
America,
but
that's
almost
never
the
case.
You
know
the
potato.
Famine
is
the
one
exception
because
for
the
most
part,
the
poorest
people
in
any
country
can't
afford
to
emigrate
because
immigrating
costs
a
lot
of
money.
So
the
Dominican
Republic's
another
example
where
a
lot
of
the
people
who
come
to
this.
These
are
actually
middle-class
people
who
found
you
know
in.
In
the
Laurentiis
case.
B
So
then
I,
finally
in
the
book
get
to
the
modern
period,
which
I
kind
of
define
as
the
1990s
to
today-
and
there
are
three
main
groups
I
talked
about
in
the
book
when
I
talk
about
immigrants
today
the
first
is
Dominicans.
The
second
are
West
Indians
and
that's
a
term
used
to
describe
the
people
from
the
Caribbean
mostly
to
describe
the
people
from
the
Caribbean
who
speak
English,
so
the
Anglophone
Caribbean.
So
that's
people
from
Jamaica
from
Trinidad
and
Tobago
places
like
that.
B
Often
there
is
conflict
between
them
and
other
groups
in
New
York.
This
is
in
1991
when
there
was
a
riot
in
in
Crown
Heights
part
of
Brooklyn,
which
central
Brooklyn,
which
is
still
dominated
by
immigrants
from
the
West
Indies,
and
this
is
a
scene.
There
is
Mayor
Dinkins
in
the
middle
there,
trying
to
trying
to
cool
the
temperance
between
the
Jewish
population
and
the
the
West
Indian
population,
and
so
I
talk
in
the
book
about
them
and
then
the
other
group
I
talk
about
are
the
Chinese.
B
The
Chinese
are
about
to
become
the
biggest
immigrant
group
in
New.
York
Dominicans
still
hold
that
that
place,
but
they're
about
to
be
displaced.
The
Chinese
actually
have
been
coming
to
New
York
ever
since
the
1850s,
but
I
focus
on
them
in
the
1980s
and
1990s
and
I
show
this
picture
because
we
tend
to
forget
this,
but
in
the
1990s,
when
you
thought
of
the
term
illegal
immigrant,
you
didn't
think
of
someone
from
Latin
America.
You
thought
of
the
Chinese,
and
the
famous
example.
Was
this
ship,
the
golden
venture?
B
So
many
Chinese
were
trying
to
get
into
the
country
illegally
that
the
smugglers
would
rent
whole
ships
and
smuggle
them
across
the
Pacific
or
Atlantic
and
try
to
then
land
them
in
America
when
this
ship
and
it's
a
huge
long
story.
But
when
this
ship
is
at
sea
for
nine
months
without
being
able
to
land,
it's
it's
people.
That's
why
this
this
man
here
is
so
is
so
gone
after
nine
months.
B
They
finally
say
we're
just
gonna
sail
the
ship
into
onto
the
beach
in
Queens
and
tell
everybody
to
jump
off
and
that's
what
they
do,
except
that
half
the
people
refuse
to
jump
off,
and
that
was
smart
because
because
a
lot
of
people
drown
in
the
surf,
and
so
this
was
the
face
of
illegal
immigration
in
the
early
1990s.
This
this
took
place
at
the
very
beginning
of
the
of
the
Clinton
administration.
B
One
of
the
things
I
talk
about
in
the
book
is
how
similar
the
Chinese
immigrant
story
is
to
those
of
previous
generations.
So
this
is
a
Chinese
bunker
in
the
exact
same
neighborhood,
that
I
showed
that
Italian
bunk
room
right,
the
former
five
months,
neighbor
5-points
neighborhood
and
the
only
difference
is
now
the
Chinese
have
triple
bunks
instead
of
the
double
bunks
that
the
Italians
have-
and
this
is
again,
this
is
one
of
those
12
by
12
foot
rooms,
but
now
crammed
full
of
Chinese
immigrants.
B
So
I've
run
out
of
time.
So
I'll
just
show
you
here.
This
is
a
map
of
New
York's
immigrant
neighborhoods.
Today
this
is
South
Brooklyn,
where
the
West
Indians
concentrate
the
Chinese
population
of
New.
York
is
so
big
now
that
it's
completely
outgrown
Chinatown
and
now
this
part
of
Brooklyn
is
also
predominantly
Chinese,
and
then
this
part
of
Queens
Flushing,
predominantly
Chinese
as
well,
though
flushing
kind
of
has
people
from
all
over
Asia,
and
then
you
can
see
up
on
the
top
is
where
the
Dominicans
tend
to
congregate.
B
But
then
you've
got
people
from
the
former
Soviet
Union
down
here
in
Brighton
Beach
Guiana,
which
is
in
the
northern
coast
of
South
America,
a
big
population
in
New,
York
here
and
so
forth.
But
of
course
the
situation
is
much
more
complicated
than
this
map
can
convey.
This
is
a
map
that
I
made
and
believe
it
or
not.
This
just
shows
the
five
biggest
immigrant
groups
in
New
York.
It's
I
aspired
to
have
a
map
that
showed
all
the
immigrant
groups
of
New
York
and
it's
just
not
it's
just
not
possible
it.
B
It
doesn't
work
so
suffice
it
to
say
that
the
fact
that
the
Chinese
would
go
to
such
lengths
as
this
crash
a
ship
on
the
shores
on
the
beach
in
Queens
and
the
fact
that
so
many
people
from
all
over
the
world
still
aspire
to
move
to
New
York
shows
that,
despite
all
the
ways
in
which
the
world
has
changed
over
the
past
400
years,
that
New
York
remains
almost
uniquely
still
the
world
city
of
dreams.
Thank
you.
C
D
C
C
B
The
same
thing
right,
the
the
the
countries
each
generation,
the
countries
that
are
considered
those
countries
changes-
iron
Ireland
was
considered
that
place
once
place
where
everybody's
poor,
nobody
can
read
or
write,
and
therefore
how
can
these
immigrants
possibly
become
good
Americans?
And
then
people
said
the
same
things
about
Germans
who
seem
to
get
drunk
all
the
time
and
and
and
then
they
said
it
about
Jews,
and
then
they
said
it
about
Italians
and
so
right.
There
is
no
immigrant
group
about
which
that
has
never
been
said,
except
the
English.
B
B
So
it's
obviously
more
complicated.
The
first
of
my
ancestors
came,
who
came
to
America,
came
from
Germany
south
way,
Germany
they
came
in
around
1850
and
they
started
out
in
Buffalo
and
then
eventually
left
Buffalo
and
went
to
New,
York
City.
So
that's
one
part
of
the
family.
That's
on
my
mother's
side
and
those
Germans
from
Buffalo,
eventually
married.
B
Married
my
great-grandfather
on
my
mother's
side,
who
was
from
he,
was
from
what's
now
Poland
and
was
then
Poland,
but
when
he
got
to
America
he
said
he
was
German,
which
was
a
common
thing
that
people
often
not
say
where
they're
really
from
now.
Technically,
he
was
correct
because
the
part
of
Poland
he
was
from
had
been
was
occupied
and
colonized
by
Prussia,
which
is
part
of
Germany.
B
The
story
is
typical
in
one
way
because
they
hear,
let's
go
back
to
the
picture,
just
sure
to
show
you
so
I
can
show
you
so
when
they,
when
these
guys
get
to
Ellis
Island,
the
family
is
detained
because
the
people
on
Ellis,
Island,
say
you're
too
sickly,
we're
not
sure
you're
gonna
survive,
and
if
you
do,
if
we
let
you
out
now
you
might
infect
people
with
whatever
it
is.
You
have
and
in
fact
what
the
family
did
was.
So
if
you
look
at
the
Ellis
Island
Hospital
records
this.
B
This
girl
who
died,
who
died
before
she
even
made
it
to
20
years
old,
she's
listed
as
being
like
nine
years.
Old
I
did
the
math
and
it's
like
they've
been
separated
11
years.
How
can
she
be
nine
years
old
and
what
I
discovered
was
that
the
family?
She
was
so
sickly
and
had
always
been
so
sickly
that
she
was
very
small
for
her
age.
B
So
when
the
boat
got
to
Ellis
Island,
they
lied
and
said
she
was
nine
when
she
was
really
12,
because
if
they
had
said
she
was
12,
they
were
looked
at
and
said:
oh
she's,
so
sickly
she
can't
possibly
be
admitted
to
America,
and
so
they
had
to
stay
because
she
was
so
sick
and
my
grandfather
was
so
sick.
They
had
to
stay
in
the
Ellis
Island
Hospital
for
more
than
a
month
before
they
would
would
let
them
out,
and
so
they
eventually,
then
they
join
with
for
him.
B
G
H
H
The
question
that
I
want
to
ask,
though,
is
there
are
some
legal
and
some
technological
changes
in
the
world
of
2017
18
that
were
different
a
hundred
years
ago,
one
of
them
a
number
of
court
cases
in
the
70s
and
80s
permitted
American
citizens
to
maintain
dual
nationality.
That
had
not
been
the
case.
The
other
thing
is
a
technological
one.
Immigration
in
1910
was
pretty
much
an
irrevocable
decision.
You
couldn't
go
back.
There
were
no
airplanes
in
putting
together
your
patterns
of
this
immigration
today.
What
kind
of
studies
of
surveys
and
attitudes
of
immigrants
today?
H
B
You
know
tenement
full
of
people
from
this
one
part
of
Moldova,
so
so
I
don't
think
the
change
in
the
1970s
is
that
big,
a
change
for
the
way
immigrants
view
view
themselves.
I
think
immigrants
have
always
seen
themselves
as
as
members
of
more
than
one
society
Oh
going
back,
so
yeah
I
think
I
hate
to
contradict,
but
I
would
say
that
that
you're
a
little
mistaken
there,
that
immigrants
lots
of
people
go
back,
have
gone
back
both
to
visit
and
to
live.
B
I
mean
the
times
of
the
most
famous
example
right,
probably
a
third
of
all
Italian
Americans
living
in
New
York
went
back
permanently
to
live
in
Italy,
but
it's
kind
of
a
myth
that
people
didn't
go
back.
They
went
back
all
the
time.
Even
my
you
know,
my
German
ancestors
I
find
their
passport
records
on
ancestry.
They
went
back
and
forth
to
Germany
all
the
time
to
visit
relatives,
and
so
there
was
a
lot
more
back
and
forth
then
than
people.
Imagine
you
didn't
need
a
jet
plane
to
do
that
kind
of
thing
could.
B
B
The
the
kind
of
biggest
most
famous
Scandinavian
population,
New
York,
is
Norwegians
in
Brooklyn
they
were
a
big
part
of
the
the
shipbuilding
sailing
longshoreman
world
of
Brooklyn,
so
in
part,
I
was
able
to
justify
not
including
them,
because
when
they
were
a
big
factor
in
Brooklyn,
Brooklyn
was
not
part
of
New
York
City.
Yet
and
then
again,
as
I
said
at
the
beginning
of
the
talk,
I
had
to
cut
somewhere,
and
so
one
of
the
decisions
was
since
Scandinavians
have
never
been
such
a
big
presence
in
New
York.
B
They
were
one
of
the
groups
to
cut
so
I
had
lots
of
research,
I
had
done
on
the
Norwegians
and
and
and
so
forth,
and
you
know
when
the
book
was
already
up
to
700
pages.
I
said
that
had
to
go
so,
but
I
can
point
you
to
some
some
stuff
about
Scandinavians
in
New
York.
If
you
wanted
to
read
more,
it's
not
very
good
I'm
afraid,
but
but
you
can
it
is
there.
G
B
If
so,
you
two
things
they're
assimilation
and
economic
success.
So
one
thing
that's
clear
is
the
more
money
you
have
when
you
get
to
New
York,
the
more
money
you'll
end
up
with
after
having
lived
in
New
York
for
twenty
or
thirty
years.
So
that
is
definitely
the
number
one
factor
that
predicts
how
you'll
do
economically
in
New
York.
B
So
that's
the
other
key
factor
is
that
immigrants.
So
in
my
study
of
the
the
people
who
the
Irish
Famine
immigrants,
the
people
who
did
the
best
were
people
who
did
not
work
for
others
or
didn't
do
that
forever,
but
work
for
themselves
eventually,
and
you
know
good
salesmen
or
good
at
so.
For
instance,
one
group
I
found
that
did
really
well
among
the
Irish
were
porters
and
I
didn't
imagine.
B
Porter's
would
make
so
much
money,
so
porters
were
people
who
would
hang
out
at
the
train
station
or
at
the
at
the
docks
and
offered
a
carrier
stuff
wherever
you
were
going
and
they
carried
on
their
backs
and
porters.
Were
you
know
the
richest
Irish
Americans?
According
to
the
bank
records
number
one?
Were
doctors
number
two
were
lawyers,
but
there
were
hardly
any
Irish
lawyers
in
New,
York
Irish
born
lawyers.
B
Number
three
were
policemen
and
that's
in
part,
because
if
you
were
a
policeman
were
very
well
politically
connected,
you
ended
up
typically
as
starting
out
as
a
policeman
ending
up
as
a
you
know,
a
politician
or
you're
getting
kickbacks
or
bribes,
whatever
the
case
might
be,
and
then
the
fourth
richest
group
of
Irish
immigrants
were
Porter's,
no
actually,
fifth,
the
fourth
richest
were
peddlers,
so
look
at
that
peddlers
and
porters,
and
what
do
they
have
in
common?
Those
are
people
who
the
amount
of
money
they
make
is
based
on
how
hard
they
work
right.
B
So,
if
you're
a
day
laborer
in
to
help
matter,
how
hard
you
work,
you
get
your
dollar
a
day,
but
as
a
peddler,
the
more
you
hustle
the
longer
hours
you
put
in
the
more
you
can
sell
as
a
porter.
You
know
the
more
you
the
better.
You
can
negotiate
with
your
customers,
the
faster
you
get
to
your
destination,
so
you
can
get
back
to
the
railroad
station.
The
more
money
you'll
make,
and
so
that's
that
tends
to
be
the
key
factor
in
terms
of
assimilation
there
I
wouldn't
use.
B
You
know,
I
think
there
aren't
huge
differences,
I
think
in
the
way
you
maybe
mean
it.
When
you
ask
it,
the
groups
that
know
English
before
they
get
to
New
York
are
able
to
move
up
the
socio-economic
ladder
faster
for
the
most
part
than
people
who
don't,
but
that
can
be
mitigated
by
having
money.
So
Germans
are
a
group,
don't
know
English,
but
they
tend
to
come
fairly
well-off
and
they
move
up
faster
than
the
other
groups
that
don't
know
English.
F
B
So
much
I'll
just
give
you
one
example.
So
one
of
the
things
the
the
Irish
are
famous
for
in
New
York
is
the
draft
riots
during
the
Civil
War,
where
it's
the
draft
riots,
it's
this
four
days
of
mass
rioting
and
killing
with
nearly
a
dozen
african-americans
lynched,
among
other
things,
and
dozens
and
dozens
of
buildings
burned
to
the
ground,
with
predominantly
Irish
immigrants
expressing
their
hatred
of
the
war
and
the
draft
in
particular
and
they're
they're,
feeling
that
the
draft
was
going
to
particularly
affect
them
because
of
this
clause.
That
said
it!
B
Yet,
if
you
can
pay
$300,
you
don't
have
to
fight
so
I
discovered
a
couple
of
things
about
that.
That
surprised
me
one
was
that,
despite
their
expectations,
hardly
any
Irish
immigrants
were
forced
to
fight
as
a
result
of
the
draft.
In
all
five
points
which
had
25,000
inhabitants,
there
was
only
one
person
who
ended
up
being
forced
into
the
army
as
a
result
of
the
draft.
B
There
were
various
means
you
could
get
exempted
or
you
could
just
move
and
run
away
and
it
was
impossible
to
fund.
You
know
there
were
so
many
Patrick
Kelley's.
There's.
No
way
to
tell
which
one
was
the
right
one
also,
this
is
a
period
where
there
is
no.
If
you
get
naturalized,
there's
no
central
record-keeping
place
that
says:
Patrick
Kelley
is
now
an
American
citizen
and
liable
for
the
draft.
B
So
if
you
got
drafted,
you
could
go
into
the
draft
board
and
say
you
know:
I'm
exempt
because
I'm,
not
an
American
citizen,
and
there
was
no
way
they
could
prove
you
work,
and
so
the
Irish
tend
to
get
out
of
it.
And
then
the
other
thing
I
found
that
was
interesting
was
that
there
were
lots
of
Irish
who,
over
the
course
of
the
war
they
changed
their
mind.
B
Finding
white
officers
who
will
command
black
units
because
the
rule
is
white
officers
have
to
command
the
black
units,
but
who
volunteers
to
command,
one
of
them,
Felix
Brannigan,
which
I
found
really
surprising,
and
he
and
his
his
words
full
of
hatred
and
racism,
are
in
a
nice
a300
history
books
he's
like
the
famous
example
of
Irish
racism
exemplified
by
the
draft
rights.
Yet
none
of
these
books
realized
because
nobody
had
known
up
to
this
point
that
Brannigan
actually
commands
a
unit
of
African
Americans
and
then
after
the
war.
He
goes.
He
moves
to
Washington.
B
One
is
to
catch
people
who
are
trying
to
to
smuggle
liquor
into
the
country
without
paying
the
excise
tax
and
the
other
main
thing
he
does
is
prosecute
Klansmen
who
are
terrorizing,
African
Americans.
There
was
no
way
he
could
have
gotten
that
job
without
having
become
a
Republican.
You
know
to
become
to
get
that
job.
During
the
grant
administration,
you
had
to
be
a
Republican,
so
here
he's
gone
from
being
famous
racist
to
a
Republican
prosecuting,
Klansmen
and
and
volunteering
where
others
declined
to
lead
African
American
troops,
so
those
kind
of
nuances
I
continually
fine.
I
Hi
I
really
enjoyed
reading
the
book
and
there
were
two
aspects
that
I
think
you've
shortchanged
a
little
bit
just
because
of
time
that
I
just
turned
the
Booker
in
the
top
in
the
book.
Well,
in
the
talk
not
in
the
book,
because
I
think
I
learned
a
lot,
one
was
about
some
of
the
religion,
religious
aspects,
I'm
a
direct
descendant
of
one
of
the
signers
of
the
flushing
nomination
in
1657,
so
that
kind
of
caught
my
eye
early
on.
I
But
then
just
the
way
the
Catholic
priests
had
to
manage
the
different
forms
of
catholic
catholicism,
the
catholic,
the
protestants
versus
the
catholics
of
that,
I
think,
there's
a
whole
fascinating
subtext
in
your
books.
About
some
of
that.
The
other
aspect
that
again
I'm
I
grew
up
in
new
jersey,
bergen
county.
So
I
know
new.
I
Feel
like
I'm,
a
New
Yorker
in
real
and
all
my
ancestors
really
are
from
different
sides
came
through
New
York,
but
the
other
aspect
was
the
politics
and
the
ties,
especially
during
the
1800s
to
of
immigrant
groups
and
the
shifting
political
powers
and
and
and
how
that
was
very
much
tied
to
ethnic
politics,
which
I
actually
think
has
some
relevance
in
today's
world
too.
Sure.
B
Yeah,
as
you
could
imagine,
I
can
barely
scrape
the
surface
of
the
book
in
trying
to
do
a
45
I'm
trying
to
do
a
45
minute
talk.
So
yes,
there's
lots
and
lots
and
lots
I
left
out,
and
so,
if
you
didn't
hear
what
you
were
looking
for,
it's
probably
because
you
know,
as
in
your
case,
lacking
time,
I
had
to
choose
all
right.
Well,
I
want
to
thank
you
all
for
coming.
It's
been
a
great
pleasure
to
talk
to
you.