Asheville, North Carolina City Council Meetings, 26 Sep 2023

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From YouTube: City Council Work Session – September 26, 2023

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Asheville City Council worksession re: Thomas Wolfe Auditorium

Access the agenda and other meeting materials on the City of Asheville website: https://www.ashevillenc.gov/government/city-council-meeting-materials/

A

A

Welcome to the Asheville city council work session regarding the Thomas Wolfe Auditorium um and I am going to turn it over to the manager. All righty.

B

Thank you and I'm going to swiftly turn it over to to Chris Coral, but actually Chris before you do. There's been a lot of interest and, on the city's part, a lot of concern about this facility and what Chris is going to do is to kind of give you a path forward. We think for our continued assessment of uh of Thomas, Wolfe and I want to thank the community's patience, because this is still going to take us some time, so our alternative to Chris Cole thank.

C

You good afternoon, director of community and Regional Entertainment facilities here to talk about Thomas, Wolfe Auditorium, uh so just to get things started with some key takeaways uh Thomas Wolfe's got some significant facility needs. I, know you're going to hear about that in the next couple of months, just regarding all the city's facilities, not just this one, but this one's got some pretty significant needs.

C

We've got some short-term full capacity, repairs that we're going to be suggesting long-term renovation suggestions to focus on in the patreon performer experience, space and we'll anticipate returning with more in-depth information. After getting some more stakeholder input, understanding of debt capacities and funding feasibilities, it's a little history and background the site that the Thomas wolf is on has been the public gathering space for Asheville dating back to 1902. So for the first couple years it was the City Auditorium which then burned down a private group rebuilt it as the Municipal Auditorium.

C

They went bankrupt actually in 1909, at which point the city took over the operation. It then was condemned in 1931 and torn down in 1937 and rebuilt with um Federal Administration Public Works Administration funds in 1939.

C

1975 after her opening of the Civic Arena next door, it was converted into a raked floor arrangement, which it is today as the Thomas wolf Auditorium, so one site, four names, three different buildings, current status, so the Thomas wolf as it is today, is good for about 29.5 million dollars of annual economic impact to Buncombe County. We do about 98 000 guests through the doors the building is in use, just the Thomas wolf part of the building 129 days a year, which is about 35 percent. The symphony is our main and only tenant.

C

However, we have promotion companies that we work with regularly like AEG Live, Nation entertainment that do a lot of dates, but they're not considered a tenant because we're not their home space. Our breakdown we do about 41 of our dates or concerts. Sporting events is a little over. 20 percent symphony is good for about a quarter of our programming and the rest falls into others, which is corporate events non-entertainment on ticketed style. Events surpass challenges, Investments I. Think a key note here is this is we're in the middle of our third instance of reduced capacity.

C

In that room, so in 2018, the actual Fire Marshal reduced our capacity in the bank or in the balcony level of the building until we repaired some Shoring needs for our fire escapes that happened in the summertime.

C

We only had two events that were affected and they were smaller events, so it never really became a public thing in February of 2020 we lost the heating to the seating chamber in March the world shut down, so we spent nine months getting that repaired and again nobody noticed because we didn't have events and then this past July with the HVAC system. Failing again uh this time it did become a public thing, because we had to cancel events and we didn't have the ability to move forward without canceling events.

C

um To give you an idea of our investment since 2015 we've spent about 2.1 million in repairs within the facility, mostly roof HVAC and lighting and audio lighting and audio, includes some electrical work that we've had done.

C

It comes out to an average of about 262 Grand a year put towards upkeep and just keeping the building running our current timeline and challenges related to this HVAC failure for those of you that I haven't spoken with our initial failure started with our main HVAC unit in the wolf in May at the Asheville Symphonies Amadeus finale concert with Bella Fleck. We had some water coming out of the ceiling. It turned out. Our main unit had failed, there's three units that serve the seating, Chamber Of The Wolf. On June.

C

We moved forward with the events that we had I think it was like 16 or 17 with just not utilizing that main unit and using our other two units over compensate. Then on July 3rd we hosted out a sold out, show same mitigation plan extermatics free water, paddle fans, but it was just so hot outside. So many people that the units overcompensated themselves and both separately failed at different points during the show got to the point that it was 88 degrees in the room and almost 80 percent humidity and just really unbearable.

C

So we made the decision to shut down the wolf temporarily and started rescheduling shows throughout the fall, especially because we knew, as we had already been working on the repair to our main unit, that we were looking at a six to nine month, lead time for that unit alone. So we knew we couldn't get this fixed by August. So we started moving events which.

A

We've had three or.

C

Four already at this point that moved from the wolf into the arena and have been generally successful, we've had very few complaints and actually a lot of people happy about the audio and happy about the sight lines that they were actually better than what they expected them to be.

D

C

A quick fix repair uh in August that got underway the first week of August. It should be completed next week, at which point we'll do a test and balance we're expecting about 1300 capacity in the room. Moving forward at that point, which will allow us for pretty much all of our non-ticketed events, which is mostly gymnastics, dance, cheerleading, a few speaking engagements things like that.

C

We anticipate, pending discussion today, coming to council at a business meeting in October, to ask for funds from our Enterprise fund balance appropriation to do a bigger repair to get us back up to full capacity on the HVAC side, assuming that is approved in October, we think we can be open end of February early March at full capacity, which would be concerts comedians speaking engagements, all the things we had been doing previously.

C

What is that uh those costs to repair the quick fix that I mentioned it's almost completed, and it's coming in right. Around 188 000, that's uh marrying a few different ductwork pieces, together with two of the remaining units that we can't repair quickly. The full capacity repair is estimated at 1.2 million. That includes a catwalk installation and fall arrest.

C

The attic dates back to the 1930s, so we actually have to build access to get to the units in order to get companies to be willing to do the work in the Attic So step, one catwalk and follower s system, step, two repair, the actual heating and air conditioning problems.

C

A lot of these can happen concurrently because the parts lead time for HVAC is like six to eight weeks anyway, which is about the time to build the catwalk. So the timing still works out. It's just a matter of what we have to have done in place. There's about two.

A

Hundred thousand.

C

Dollars in contingencies, held in there just for unknowns that we might run into in the Attic.

B

And Chris, why don't we pause here and see if there are any questions, yeah.

D

The question um when we're talking about the edition of the catwalk installation: are there any multi-solutions that are? We can anticipate in the future that we could do now with this that we're just trying to get this quick fix done so we're leaving it behind, or is this the fullness of what could be done with this part of the installation.

C

So great question lighting, sound um well lighting sound would be separate, um but catwalk, for example. This is just the price to get from our attic access to the unit in the center. It does not create a catwalk throughout the rest of the Attic So. It's literally just a path to that unit, fix the unit and come back out so.

E

We could go a.

C

Little bit bigger, but it would be, we got it quoted a few years ago and it was somewhere in the neighborhood of like one and a half million to do a catwalk all the way around the attic, which just seems a little unnecessary. Okay. Thank you any other questions in the current status or repairs all right, all right, so some renovation options that we could talk about for future.

C

um It's definitely been very well studied. So if we go back over the last 20 years, there's either been there's been six conceptual design or feasibility studies completed. We've had three other ancillary operational evaluations completed. Not all of these were funded by the city, which is a big thing to note here. A few of them were done by non-profits, so this isn't six or nine City studies, I believe it was six City studies and three non-profit and other groups. The results of them all have very similar recommendations, infrastructure and life safety.

C

Improvements needed to be made rigging. Loading in back of house is a really really big challenge. Acoustics is not great, for non-amplified shows it's pretty good for Amplified shows, but all Symphony style shows other Performing Arts. It's not great lighting and audio needs.

C

Significant improvements, bathrooms seats, patreon flow, the food and beverage operation is all just lacking compared to current standards, and um each study showed consistently increasing expense estimates Through Time, to give some examples just of what projects like this cost to pull together, projects that have opened 2019 to present in the Performing Arts Center space I got everything from a project. That's happening down: downtown New, York City to a high the Nelson Center at a high school in Wisconsin.

C

Just to give you some range, but you can see an average project like this comes out about 129 million for about 1600 seats and our room is 2431 seats. Just to give you an ideas, and these numbers I'm about to show you might seem really really high and scary, but they're somewhat normal in the Performing Arts Center space hmm and how these projects are normally funded, there's a whole gamut of different ways, but property and income tax state funding comes in a lot occupancy tax.

C

Almost always is included in these in some way, shape or form philanthropic donations, corporate and naming rights, sponsorships prepared food, food and beverage tax, quite often as part of it. Raleigh just did a really big project, utilizing occupancy and food and beverage tax go bonds, tax, increment financing revenue bonds and at University venues, tuition fees. So there's and.

A

E

C

Thing, it's always a combination of different things, help make these projects happen, uh so to get into some of the different vetted options. This is our Broadway major renovation expansions option. This is the project that in 2019 2020 we went through after Council allocated some money for us to go through a conceptual design. We did a lot of stakeholder engagement.

C

We did a lot of public engagement and in the goal of meeting every different group's needs in Asheville we came up with what then was 100 million dollar project and our design team is estimating up to 198 million. If we do construction in 2028 for a room that can house Broadway is great for the symphony and other performing arts groups, it's great for our concerts as new Patron spaces. This.

A

C

The be all is all project um and after design fees, an estimated construction Debt Service to that project's about 11 and a half million per year for 20 years has a lot of pros and cons. Like I mentioned the patron and performer experience is great uh front of house spaces has improved. Loading is significantly improved. This setup actually drops the stage 23 feet and brings the stage to load in instead of load in to the stage.

C

So if any of you have been there, you've seen our 60 degree ramp that you have to go up and load in it's challenging at best. um It includes a lot of new additional square footage and has space for Community programming, whether that's.

B

C

Space or other music groups, but some type of ancillary space that comes with it, uh it's cons is it's by far the most expensive and um it takes away meeting space from the arena by dropping the seating down all the spaces that are three main meeting rooms that are VIP spaces and ancillary for the arena are taken away by this stage. Dropping down uh another option is our Patron driven significant Renovations option.

C

This was really well vetted in a 2016 study that we did and our design team incorporates a lot of the groups that were involved in this study. So they gave us some updated numbers on this in 2028 dollar figures is around 150 million dollar project which, after design fees, come out an estimated construction, Debt Service of around 8.7 million a year.

C

This is Performance Based, so some Performing Arts you're going to have like your cert musicas and the types of events that you see at Diana Wortham, but like a slightly greater scale, but not Broadway in this, so you lose Broadway with this step in the process.

C

This is probably the best possible solution for the actual Symphony and other touring Symphony style events that we don't currently get that we could have- and it's really really good for concerts as the front few rows that you see in that image actually go away and it creates an opportunity for us to have a ga standing room area and then seated area too. So it's a good mix for the different types of shows that come through the room.

D

C

Increases front house spaces has updates in the rigging safety and code updates. It's an ideal option for the location of Performing Arts. Its negatives are that it's a fairly high cost and the space flexibility is slightly less than the Broadway style setup, so the raked floor improved Arrangement. This is the room, as you see it today, with some updates with new seats, some repairs to loading, some sound and lights, and rigging updates infrastructure updates, but really the same footprint, the same setup that you see right now when you come to the room so.

A

This would have.

C

Very little effect on our programming you'd see a lot of the same touring acts same style Productions that come through the room. Now there wouldn't be much difference. This Project's up to 125 million after design fees, Come Out, Construction, Debt Service around 7.3 for per year for 20 years, a little bit more on the con side on this one that there's little to no back of house improvements, the loading isn't changed.

C

There's not any extra footprint, that's growing out of the fly house area, so we're really still constrained with what we can do on the back house side, which is what affects what type of programming's in the room, but it does have significant impact. As far as an economic impact, Life Safety, Code, updates rigging front of house, the Acoustics are much better and does increase the patron experience, multi-purpose flat, four Arrangement that we've been talking about for a couple years, I'm just going to Breeze by this one.

C

This was something we've talked about when there was a talk of another Performing, Arts, Center style room being built, so that would be a home for the symphony and other performance events.

C

That's not really feasible and doesn't seem like that's going to be coming together, so it doesn't seem to make sense talk about this and we still need to find a home for those theater style events, whether it's the symphony or other touring shows. But this is the most flexible style Arrangement. It would come in at about 110 million or about 6.4 million a year for 20 years, but it results in no like theater, like permanent fixy theater, greater than 600 seats in the Asheville area, which would be odd for a city of our size.

C

So we really should probably not look into that one too deeply um infrastructure code updates, so our design team brought us this number, which is about 52 million, simply to update HVAC Electrical Plumbing, networking, Life Safety Code Ada code and some general, like one for one fixtures in the restrooms. Some seating improvements, but really like not a lot like not even fixing the ceiling was the way that they put it to me when they gave it to me.

C

This is about a 52 million dollar project like I mentioned, comes in on design, that's or after design. Debt Service of 3 million a year for 20 years, so this is just the keep open. The get up to code continue on type of project.

C

um There's not a lot of bang for the buck with it. There's no changes the front of house or back of house spaces, but it does have the safety and code updates and we would have the same general economic impact that we currently have with this style setup.

C

uh Do nothing is off, obviously also an option. It is the cheapest, which is a bonus, uh but the the one concern is: we don't know how much it will cost to continue. So if we just use that 262 000 I mentioned earlier, is that average that we've been spending since 2015.? That's roughly what we would be expecting to pay out every year in repairs or whatever might come, your.

A

Do-Nothing pictures slightly misleading, looks kind of nice there's.

C

No peeling paint in the do.

A

Nothing, the right.

C

Corner yeah, but you know like that that.

B

F

C

There is closed and you can see outside.

C

um So yeah the pros of this one, the venue reopens quickly stays reopened. um The con the biggest con out of all this is that there would be no safety and code updates still so we'd be just continuing at the band.

C

Indeed, in the grandfather, clauses of all of our code needs um I apologize for the busyness of this, but I was trying to put all five of them on one slide for comparison's sake, so just think green red, yellow right, just like going through a stoplight, the Broadway, the big 200 million dollar project, has all the all the things.

C

um But again do we need all of those things in Asheville. That's really the big question uh the patron driven, significant Renovations. It does a lot in all of the spaces other than loading. It doesn't drop the stage. So therefore, our loading challenges still remain and we'd have to find a way to get through that process. There's a minimal increase in square footage, but not as much as the Broadway, so I put that in the yellow space in our community space is a potential opportunity, but it hasn't really been fully vetted.

C

So I didn't want to say yes or no, that that could or can happen there, but.

A

This just kind of gives a.

C

General breakdown of the of how each space lands.

C

B

Moving forward, what have we stopped.

C

Yeah any questions at this.

E

Point I'd just like to ask a question: well those uh examples you had pretty much all of my seeding capacity in all of my dude all the same roughly.

C

Yeah, in all cases, we would lose seats for ADA requirements, so we were 24 or 31 right now, we'd probably be in the neighborhood of 2200, with the exception of the flat floor multi-purpose Arrangement, because you can put one person for every five and a half square feet. So our capacity would actually probably go up in that case, but as far as a seated room would be around 2200.

G

C

Current tenant.

G

The symphony, what is it I saw an email from them requesting something which option was it um the.

C

Symphony group so far has been just not the flat floor. Just.

G

Not okay with the.

A

C

Rates would be well, it's breaks. Raked is the first three as you go through. I would for Zoom, just from conversations I've had with them that the patron driven, significant renovation would be like their minimum desire of us and that a Broadway renovation scope would be good too, but I think the sweet spot's really going to be that Patron driven significant renovation space, uh because Broadway in a lot of communities has the opportunity to push out the local programming.

C

The money that you can get through Broadway is really strong and you just try to find more and more dates and that ends up pushing out the local tenants. Greensboro.

A

Has had a lot of challenges.

C

With that, their Symphony has been pushed out of the Tanger Center that just opened a few years.

G

So this Patron driven option doesn't address the loading, but you have other ideas around how to address the loading it.

C

Doesn't but whenever we dug deep into that one, the parameter of the substation not moving was in play so I think if we went back and changed that parameter, knowing it's likely moving, there's probably a way to solve that or.

G

At least okay, better.

C

Than what we are, but.

G

It wouldn't be like a 30 million dollar difference.

C

I would hope not.

G

A

Me too, okay, but I mean so that so the idea is that the substation is sliding down and we haven't that Duke hasn't. They have agreed to the concept, but they haven't come back to us with an application. Yet so um so you're saying that would afford enough room for for loading. If, theoretically.

C

Yeah, when I gave our design team the general parameters the Duke has implied, but yet to actually apply, for they said that that would be a game changer in a lot of these setups, so I think they could go back and really dig into this, and we could see a different way uploading or flyhouse expansion that goes backwards instead of side into the buildings, and we could have a lot of opportunity. We just don't know what that is. Yeah.

B

And, depending on the path forward, we still need to do a lot more work or whatever design we we choose, but I think you're going to get into well.

D

If I might ask two questions, one is because I'm hearing you say that we're no longer looking at another local performing arts space is there an opportunity for partnership and cost sharing? Are we pursuing those conversations and the second one is when we were talking about McCormick field? We were talking about a better deal and and making that a multi-purpose multi-solving opportunity, and it really I think helped us to be able to communicate the benefit of an investment. When we talked about that all the ways a space could be used in this situation.

D

The flat floor to me makes our facility a competition with our local businesses that have similar floor space designs. So for me, that would be a not a benefit to the community that might see it as a competition, but something like this that could go alongside this graphic, which is very helpful. That shows what are the ways that we could use this for youth programming? What are the schools and universities nearby that we could look to pursue more programming with which provide the most nights that are usable for local benefits?

D

I think will help us show the investment.

C

Yeah, the the flat floor would compete a lot more with rabbit, for example, and Salvage station and some others, and so the raked floor setup fits in the in a band's path through Asheville, right, you're, going to pay the Gray Eagle, and then the orange peel and the Thomas wolf and then rabbit in our Arena and then hopefully McCormick field right, and so we can step through the path.

C

um The Rake floor is good too, for both local and non-local promoters. You have the ability ability to what's called scale the house so by having reserved seating, you can change your ticket pricing very easily, and so you can monetize a lot better than you can with just an open, GA space where all tickets have to be the same to be pricing.

C

As far as Partnerships with other organizations, Asheville Arts Council they've brought up numerous times, they're ready to talk. They want to be the lead on helping find a way to get there. The symphony is very interested in this project and I know: Live Nation who's, one of our national promoters. We work at is very very said, and what they can do to help the project because they stand to gain as well, so I think there's Partners to be at the table.

C

I, don't know what Financial input each of those Partners can bring, but there's definitely an opportunity I. Just we haven't been able to get that deep into it. Yet another.

D

Thing that would help me as a classically trained musician I would love to have a solid home for the symphony, but also having done National and international touring. What are the acts that we're not getting, because we don't have certain facilities, for example, are you seeing things where we could get programming? That's going to Atlanta or Charlotte, but we're not, and so that would help me look at some more like projections of Revenue yeah.

C

And that we definitely have I have a lost business report that we keep up with, with any shows that inquired that then the production couldn't fit Anthony Bourdain's sticking out in my mind, because he had some like rocket that spit out popcorn that he couldn't get through the door. Oh.

D

But like things.

A

C

Have every year a few that come through and then there's acts that don't even try, and so we could get that Business Report pretty well um to go back to it. Deborah was speaking of uh digging deeper into any of these, so we do have some funds for this, so in 20, 17 or 18, Council appropriated five hundred thousand dollars towards the conceptual design that we had completed and there is still money left in that project. I think it's around 250 300 000!

C

That's still in there sitting for what was supposed to be the continuation of the design that was put together in 2020. So we could reinvigorate that contract, which is not expired and have them really dig into one or two of these options. If we wanted to get further and that could include.

A

C

As well as more conceptual design documents, for example,.

C

All right um so moving forward, so things to talk about in our path forward, we're suggesting that we should probably dig into further with some investigation on the patron driven and significant Renovations project so that um that number two project, if you will in the list that was capped out around 150 million and um we're also suggesting that we would ask you for approval to approach the TDA lift fund, project or process, which is the Legacy investment from tourism fund, to match repairs for funding and put towards design So in theory, we'd be asking for our funding money to repair the Thomas Wolfe, roughly 1.4 million in total and we'd be going to the TDA saying we're going to use our 1.4 to get reopened and keep bringing business to town.

C

We want you to match that, so we can use this 1.4 to start design on this project of the patron. Driven, focus and 1.4 is not nearly all of the money. We would need for design of 150 million dollar project, but it gets us really moving down the path. I, don't know if there's appetite on the TDA side. For that I'd like to think there is I think this is a project.

C

They've asked us to come to to them with for years, so I think it's there, but we'd have to go through the process which opens in October to see if we can um and next steps inside that further investigation would be stakeholder partnership updates. When we did this in 2019 2020, it was the chamber, the TDA, uh Asheville, Symphony, Asheville, music professionals, other promoters locally and regionally just to get their input on what the room should be and what its flexibility needed to be.

C

General public input just from the general public that lives in Asheville, putting together an economic business plan and then vetting financing capabilities and what's feasible enough.

F

F

Say Trend driven and significant Renovations project is there's. Some different language on the table is significant. Renovations that improved rates floor. It.

C

Would be this guy? Oh.

F

That's the one with the hyphen. Yes,.

F

um I definitely think we need to take the do nothing off the table. I find that just we are going to have this conversation every spring and I think that's not fair I.

E

F

Think it's financially prudent, so I'm very interested in making something move forward. I do think. I also think the Broadway opportunity, I am not I, don't have appetite to pursue that. We have a Broadway facility in Greenville we have a Broadway facility in Knoxville. Those are very close markets, and so just from like a business feasibility standpoint, I don't know that competing in those markets. We'd have enough to really pay back our loans and um as Kim you were talking about having multi-benefits and Community centered.

F

We know that a Broadway Dynamic makes it harder for our local acts and local Arts be able to compete, and so I, just don't I, don't have an appetite for that I'm not here to make money. I'm I want us to have a healthy facility that contributes to the Civics of our communication so on the scale I think both the ends I have no appetite for when it.

F

When we're looking at the difference between the improved rake floor and the patron driven, um you know, depending that's 25, to 50 million dollars, which is a huge amount of money.

B

F

Last time we did a bond, it was 70.. Our organization doesn't have a lot of historic capacity recently to be doing big projects like this. That doesn't scare me away, but as we move forward and learning, I would really want to know what the donor landscape looks like and I know that having talked to a lot of people, who've been working on this for years that there is a list of Foundations who, off like the glass foundation, for example, has on their basic giving program.

F

Two hundred thousand dollar Capital Improvements, and that's not even a negotiated conversation. So I know that there's a handful of other foundations um that I think that we could actually be talking about 25 to 50 million dollars from the donor Community, whether it's foundations or individual donors in the Arts organizations, and so I'd like to see that information fleshed out a little bit more. Having served on fight profit boards, I know that that type of analysis is not a year-long analysis. You can do that readily and so to me.

F

I I want to understand that capacity a little bit more because if we really have Partners from the non-profit side with the ability to pull in 25 or 50 million, that makes me a lot more interested in the patreon driven model.

F

um But if that comes in later, I might have more interest in the improved rake floor. So I I think those are the two directions: I'm interested in learning, more about and really understanding, tda's capacity, our capacity and then those kind of partner capacity would help me as we kind of iterate on thinking through this. Hopefully this fall.

G

Speaking of the tda's capacity, did we learn with the tourist stadium that their capacity for Debt Service is 1.2 million a year.

C

About 1.8 million per year over 15 years is their Max.

G

For all projects.

C

Are for a project for a single projects and when we did the deal from McCormack, it's the of the it's a 10 thing over the previous three years. At that point it was actually 1.5 and it's gone up. So 1.8 is theoretically the one project.

G

Folks, right, but still alarming because doesn't seem like that's that much coverage for this larger ticket I'm with Maggie I, want to Second this idea of the the.

A

Two, but just to note on the TDA they can also do you know the one time yeah.

C

And they can do designs separately now at the lift. So you.

A

G

Well and soon, I thought the design fees in this realm were very expensive, like 15 20 of the project cost yeah.

E

G

That's a front costs are really what's.

C

The team they can now match which they have not been able.

G

To but like two million doesn't go very far in that world, right, okay, um I guess so: you're going to come back with understanding debt capacities. Funding feasibility I see that on your last slide, so that's kind of the stuff we're gonna you'll. Naturally,.

C

Bring us we'd be getting into okay, the business plan, one so that uh Tanger Center in Greenville or Greensboro, for example, did a lot of revenue bonds based off of that business plan. So they've got revenue bonds, plus they didn't philanthropic donations, plus they had property tax and occupancy. So there's ways to piece it all together, but you really have to go through that feasibility uh to get there and that's going to take for us um I I. Don't have time to that.

C

So we're gonna have to hire somebody, but we can find a way to do that and.

G

Well, I also don't want to leave loading unfixed in whatever solution comes together. So if there is going to be some homework, maybe we can figure out the moving of the Duke and the yeah um and then I'm not sure. If I just heard this I don't want to start any rumors has the TDA signaled that they actually want a Broadway Style.

D

C

G

um Okay, well, I want a second Maggie.

A

On these yeah, they.

G

Signaled actually great, when I want to Second Maggie on these kind of ideas of those two ends of the spectrum are just not on the table. For me doing, nothing is not a solution at this point.

D

I I would agree, and once again, if the multi-purpose flat floor is going to be competitive, there's a number of breweries that do live shows um so I didn't hear them named, but it seems to me that would really compete with our local artists, community and culture community. So I would like to take that off the table too, unless we're hearing that that's the only option or somehow a donor supports specifically that one I think it needs to be off the table. I'll.

F

Be more explicit in my support of that also also, we run a facility that I've been to when you cut it in half and basically provide that at the Civic Center Arena, so it on top of what you're saying it doesn't I, don't see the need I, see it being like a Frugal option, but um Pennywise and pound foolish and competing and so I.

D

For resource mapping, it just seems like it's not a resource for you, the most.

A

So that would be the both the raked and the flat or no.

F

Just just the flat okay.

A

So that leaves the yeah.

A

What's the other name for the patron? It's the significant.

C

Renovation, we have been calling it acoustic, Focus say we had originally called it. Acoustic Focus, but I was worried that it would sound like it was only for one style event, and that was really a lot of it. I'm just trying to get used to.

A

The names because I thought we were calling it Performance Based for a while. No.

E

Sounds all right, so we're calling it.

A

Patron driven yes,.

C

Okay, so we'll come up with an acronym.

F

So it sounds like the staff is recommending the patron driven I I'm, asking that we keep the one to its right. The improved rate facility floor on the table as well with hopes that we can see significant partnership from the donor and philanthropic community that could help close the gap between those two.

C

F

C

Think, just from working with the design team in the past, those two are very closely aligned. The difference really is taking the balcony out and reconfiguring it or not. So they can be very similar projects, so they can go down a path without wasting a lot of time and energy and still be close to where they're going the.

F

Other two kind of in my queue was um in this process. I know that our next work session we're going to look at the public facilities assessment and so and I know that you're lining this up and so I just want to like say for the two people, maybe watching this in the 20 here that you know we're also pursuing a bond to pursue housing and improving safety facilities. And so we need to look at the whole.

C

F

And the whole ask, and where would this slot in I think that there's really significant space for partnership for us to come together to make our community better with this than maybe our fire stations right and so I know that we're going to be looking at this side by side, but I feel excited by this, but also I do not have the whole picture. So I really need to see where.

C

The money comes.

F

Down and I know that staff is doing a fantastic job, managing us towards this, um and then the other thing I don't see in this conversation, which I am curious.

F

If my other accounts, women are have an appetite for this, when we have big ambition with enormous price tags, I'm curious about the pit of Hope, which is across the street I'm curious about what a district scale conversation looks like in this area, because the more sometimes the bigger your vision, the more space for partners to come together and collaborate to make something outstanding, and so we have across the street from what is too fantastic venues right now or really I think underutilized asset. We have a plan that hasn't been acted upon.

F

I know: we've been asking to get kind of a briefing on that, but at the essence of the pit of Hope's plan is looking at a partnership model to bring a vibrant space back to life and I. Wonder there could be that it's too complex to manage that and something this big at the same time, and if that's what staff says, I can hear that we're still a small City growing into ourselves, but I wonder if we'd be leaving Financial, Partnerships and opportunity for leverage and making this District scale.

F

Conversation could really increase the ability to bring Partners to the table and have a cool, beautiful.

D

F

Vision in this part of town for revitalization and all that I.

D

Know that our plan addresses the needs of the Basilica as well, but I wouldn't want to not name that that's part of that region, I'd.

G

Like to see us talking about that facility as well and what comes to mind actually is the street, the roadways were redesigned as part of that and that abuts this facility, so it might be a chain reaction there, but- um and we do have great designs and a huge Community input process behind it. It doesn't mean we have to be the developers, it could mean we find partners and so on, but to the extent that we can bring that into the conversation. I'd be curious.

G

Last question about this, though, before I get too far, can you remind me, do all three on the left address the neck thing.

C

Two of the three on the.

G

Left so, which one doesn't improved right.

C

Floor, Great, Floor there'd be new seats, so they might twist a little bit more, but.

G

B

Still be watching like this.

G

C

Yeah, you wouldn't fully fix that problem.

G

One thing to think about: if you've been there and sat up there.

B

So please watch that if you don't mind if you could go through under the improved right floor Arrangements the items you have in yellow.

C

Yeah um so in the improved rate floor, which is I'll just go to the picture, real quick just uh so that's basically the same Arrangement that you've got now.

C

If you walk into the wolf um so limited enhancements in the performer experience, so that's really the on stage, so our wings don't get any bigger, which is the space off stage that you can't see when you're sitting in the Hall back of house doesn't really change much and I'm sure we would like update the fixtures and the flooring and the paint and everything but the actual footprint of the space wouldn't change very much for the performers you're in and out as far as like the stage door right now, it's an old window, that's our stage door, it's a little short door.

C

If you've been on the tour um I'm sure we would find a way to adjust that. But that's not like a thing that was specifically called out in the detail. They brought so like what.

E

The performers are dealing.

C

With is very similar that there's not a lot of space and their footprint is shrunk. So when they have a bigger production, they can't use the whole production when they come through Asheville, for example, uh Acoustics. There would be improvements, but they would be limited and I say that, because the acoustic needs of the room, the room's too long and too short. So in the patron driven and Broadway setup Broadway the ceiling comes out and the stage comes down.

C

So we gain like 40 feet of height and the back of the room comes forward about 50 feet, so the room becomes more of a square which is better acoustically in the patron driven, the stage doesn't fall, but the ceiling goes up. So we gain about 18 feet or something like that and that side.

C

So we get a lot of that good Reverb and um in the acoustic side, plus adhesive panels and other things like that, but it wouldn't be fabric walls and what you see at a lot of like the symphony driven halls in bigger cities. Our.

A

C

Options we put that as limited because in the approved rainfall Arrangement a lot of that stays the same like if our loading is the same stage. Footprints the same fly house is the same. We really can't change what we're putting in there, because we're still putting the biggest things in that we can so getting more than four trucks in on a show day is pretty challenging.

C

I think we've done one five truck show in the last couple years, but those bigger performances that are in like the performing arts space, like your your Cirque holidays or like any of your circuit events, which are the like flying performers. Those are normally between four and eight trucks when they come into a theater setups and trying to get those in is really really challenging.

C

um Our ballet events right now are literally like a curtain backdrop and they're dancing in front of that. There's no props included, there's no other up and down theatricals. But if you went to say the Peace Center and you saw the same Moscow ballet performance, there would be props in and out there'd. Be all these extra performance pieces that really make this show better and they'd have a symphony actually playing in front of the stage, whereas ours is a CD. So we play the CD and the dancers are out there.

C

So it's a very different experience um and then our impact potential we've got that as significant potential. In that we would likely increase our annual economic impact to Simply due to the newer building and we'd be able to bring in some new programming, but not all the new programming, whereas The Highest Potential would be in those Broadway and Pitch driven Renovations, because we'd be able to change the programming which would allow for more shows basically we'd.

D

Keep what we have.

C

And we'd be able to add more so if we're booked 36 of the year now, you know a good goal is like 60 of the Year 66 of the year, um because.

G

You're not you're, never going.

C

To be booked 100 right but being able to have something going frequently is key.

D

ah Hard question that I heard from a member of our community that I think we might want to like be able to address in a very clear way.

D

Is there any benefit to having a conversation about what it looks like for us to be a partner in a project for a performing arts space where we bring the facility or the land in this case, but that we would transfer ownership or potentially sell it like? We did with like a 319 Biltmore, for example,.

C

I think the answer is yes: if they weren't connected I, think our big challenge here, if our theater was like on this side of downtown and our Arena was over here, I think it would make a lot of sense for us to help stand up this theater and hand it off to a non-profit or put it on private roles and put it on a tax roll.

C

Since it's inside the arena, essentially under the same roof, I, don't know any non-profit like a lot of markets, have a non-profit run their municipally owned theater, but very rarely as a non-profit involved. In like the sports arena too, and the way those buildings are designed. You can't really stand alone, one or the other like you got to do it all. So we would either need to look at privatizing the entire facility or finding a nonprofit willing to do the entire thing, which I, don't think is realistic.

C

um Private private operation I'm sure there's companies out there. That would be interested most of them work on a lease management agreement, so the city or county typically ends up paying them about the same. That they've been subsidizing it for the X number of years before and then just lose control but non-profit run would be a great way to go for our theater. If it wasn't attached to our Arena does.

D

That make sense it does I, hear you verbally, but I don't like see in a way that's shareable to the public other than this meeting, so in future communications, it might help to like say that we have considered this here's the reason why it might not work for us, but here's, maybe the facilities that we're familiar with where it has worked for others.

C

All right, um some immediate next steps, um so we're also suggesting moving forward with our full capacity repair in that process, which would show us showing up at one of the October business meetings, to request roughly 1.4 million out of our Enterprise fund balance to cover those repairs which were talked about very early today. Just to give you an idea of our fund balance, there's about 4.2 million in there now, there's a 16 policy requirement that we have to keep in there leaving about 3.3 available.

C

If we pulled out the 1.4 we'd still have 1.9 available in our fund balance for the hcca Enterprise.

C

So there is money available and it still leaves extra over and above the policy requirement for any rainy days ahead, and so then yeah we're back to the key takeaways that anything at the Thomas Wolfe has or Thomas Wolfe has significant facility needs and any repair that we do uh is pretty significant and expensive. uh Short-Term full capacity repairs are suggested and we'd like to show up at one of the October meetings requesting funds for from the Enterprise appropriated fund balance.

C

We talked about the long-term renovation suggested with the patreon performer experience focus and we can dig into that deeper and we'll return with more in-depth information. After that, any other questions, discussion.

F

um Hear some more from you about this, if there was interest in US folding into this conversation, looking at the pit of Hope, what do you think the leverage of expanding the aperture of this to include that? What do you think that could contribute.

C

Can I put that to the planner in the room because I don't know if I know actually.

B

Planner in the room, that's being I, just keep.

B

This this that's a tough question, because I think this facility actually has such significant needs that we need. You know we need. We really do need to go ahead and make some progress on upgrading the facility. Now, if you're, if you're talking about how do we vision, uses that complement this facility I think we have a study that was done that and you all adopted it says this is kind of our vision for this area.

B

I I believe that when we did that original visioning exercise, we contemplated those uses, Harris be in there, Thomas Wolfe being there, um even the library being there. um So I think. If there were some additional study, it would be.

B

What do we do immediately immediately adjacent to Thomas, Wolfe and further down on on the other side? I, don't know if the pit of opportunity affords us that much more of an opportunity to do something different or complementary, but.

G

What about the streets, though, like so these designs, will just be designed to the street that we know we want to change well,.

A

The reconfiguration.

B

I'm sorry yeah the.

A

Reconfiguration of the streets called for in the by the task force is on the other other side. That's right so.

C

It wouldn't change.

A

The frontage correct.

C

Time not very much it.

E

C

Patio slightly larger.

G

Just step back: okay, yeah.

C

I would add to that. So you know in all the research for the baseball stadium and just my world in arenas and theaters, like these buildings are often built to increase tax value and economic drivers in the area around. So not that they're interested in trying to sell 68 Haywood, but in theory, would increase the value of that and maybe drive up the desire to develop it.

C

I mean but I know we have a plan I'm not trying to say to scrap that, but it creates opportunity for the city on land all the way around it.

G

B

With that service, if we reverse, if we do something with Thomas wolf, we may have been.

G

Saying something to happen and it could be concurrent I mean I'd, be curious, yeah, yeah, I, don't know if I heard enough support from Council to kind of.

F

G

Into planning, but just.

F

Imagine um I think that McCormick gave us an opportunity to really see what bigger Financial Partnerships can look like and not go It Alone on one project at a time and that inspires me and I'm very hopeful that we will see strong community support from our donor Community towards this and I wonder if that could be significantly scaled if the vision was really about the whole District and I think this is going to be very hard as it is and I'm up for the hard thing. So um you know it similar.

G

F

Appetite but there's a deep Instinct in me that um Vision excites people to collaborate but I'm excited about this one as it is.

G

It reminds me of a big project we're seeing later tonight. You know a larger District, a larger plan and how much can come from something when you strategize.

A

I mean I, think I think it's admirable. uh It is um really challenge. I mean we have had it's hard to do multiple parts to projects and it seems like we've, been ambitious and tried to I'm just trying to prepare myself for reality, but but that's not to say it's not possible, but um it's it's super chat. I do I, just don't want to slow down Thomas Wolfe.

E

A

Been able to pull it together in a bigger bigger picture and I and I think the um hit of opportunity, uh whatever you want to call. It may um may also.

C

B

A

Partners that might not necessarily want to partner on Thomas Wolfe.

B

A

Yeah, um based on some Community conversations, so I, you know I, don't I, don't know, but I think it's time for all of it to happen. It's it's an area that I mean. Does how many remember the parking deck.

C

A

I mean it was many many years ago that that City deck was taken down in you know, not much has happened since then, but we've had a a great task force that came up with a really great plan for the area. So it'd be nice to see it come to.

C

A

um um We haven't heard from everybody on Council and I think um it would be if anybody else wants to say anything about this I think the goal of this work session is to sort of foreshadow that we're going to get these short-term fixes that are going to come to council for I think we have to do the larger one, because it's a fund transfer.

C

So it comes to us as.

A

A budget fund transfer, but then also to provide some direction in terms of narrowing this down for Chris and his work. So that he's not trying to flesh out all of these iterations that we kind of give some Focus um and.

B

You know the only one.

A

Of my one of my hesitancies around the short-term fix which I get I get we you know any of these plans it's going to take a while to even in the fastest Fast Track it'll take a while, but I don't want us to get complacent if we do some repairs to the structure that get it up and running, you know with the duct.

E

Tape or whatever that.

A

1.7 million dollar duct tape or whatever that we don't take our gas off or foot off the gas pedal in terms of making sure we move this along. We.

B

We can't mare I mean we, you just Express kind of the sense of urgency. We have delayed and deferred and this actually we lose the the more we invest in this facility. The way it is.

A

B

Going to get the return on investment that this community deserves well.

A

And you know you're very skilled at putting together a performer for us on.

B

C

A

That we, that was just a test, run to.

C

D

Well, you could.

F

Do with something you know, yes,.

A

F

Times and then we work our way up to District scale.

E

Right, I'm, okay, with.

A

That we can, you know, I'm eager to see us pursue the two options that were discussed here and flesh out all funding opportunities, I'm willing to put some Sweat Equity into this and meet with all of our partners and kind of help put together that um portfolio of contributions that we would hope to see. And you know we have some good models in other cities where we've seen it done and what you might be able to expect from contributions from the private sector um to make something's this work.

A

It's interesting that often for cities, this is kind of their biggest ticket item. Is their performance center. So, um and this is the role Cities play in our world to provide these cultural, centers and places for people to be together, so I think it's significant and important- and um you know somebody sent me minutes from a meeting and of the city in late 90s, discussing needed, repairs and and a discussion around how they didn't have any money and making the decision to sort of Kick the Can.

A

So we got this can and um and I'm I'm hopeful, we'll be able to put put this together. I will say: there's been some ambitious discussions around funding options that I don't think we should count on, but that I do think we should pursue aggressively um there. There are opportunities for us to go to the legislature and try to put a food and beverage referendum on the ballot. It failed twice recently in which city was it Durham I can't remember.

C

E

It was Durham yeah.

A

C

Raleigh or Wake County passed one right.

A

So and but ref but Geo bond referendums for performance, centers have failed in Greensboro, so I mean I think we have to be sort of realistic and put this together with sure thing um financing. But but you know if we can shoot the moon and go get some of these other opportunities before before us before the voters and let them choose. That would be great too, but um but you know just based on how the outcomes are in other cities, we can't be sure, but it would be here, so we need to plan accordingly.

A

Before he leaves.

E

Oh, no, no! No! No! No Bob's! Listening to everyone and I I too, agree that the patron driven, significant and the improve rate Flora Arrangement. Those two uh basically stand out and and I agree that we need to. As far as the repairs go with the highest option, to make sure we you know able to maintain, because the lower price ticket on that is still not gonna, you know do it do what we need to do so.

E

B

D

I'm going to say this part because I'm that I don't think I was explicit about this. But when I say what are the shows that we're not getting from Atlanta and Charlotte, something that I'm really curious about is why we don't see more hip-hop r, b and soul acts in our Thomas wolf. And what could it mean for our local musicians that don't have that incubator, space and visibility? So I just want to be really explicit. That I know that we're missing stuff in the market and I'd like to know what that could look like.

D

So we could articulate that to our local, music and performer community.

C

Some of those are less about the production capability in the wolf and just about the historical sales r b. I can think of eight or nine times that a promoter has attempted it and lost a lot of money and not come back over and over again on r b for.

E

Whatever reason.

C

G

Trying and failed multiple times in.

C

This market in this market.

D

C

D

Was helped to know which, when those shows happened, I just think that's going to have to be part of the story. The community will ask for that information.

C

B

All right, well, okay, wow in record time.

B

So thank you all right.

A

We appreciate it the session and we'll reconvene in an hour for our state council meeting um Daniel tell us when we're off there.

E