Asheville, North Carolina City of Asheville, 22 Nov 2022

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From YouTube: Whats Up AVL! – Episode 19

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November 9, 2022
Host Sam Parada discusses the many different aspects of the City’s Historic Preservation Program with Alexandra Cole, Urban Planner III with the City of Asheville’s Planning and Urban Design Department.

A

It's now time for what's up Asheville sponsored by the city of Asheville, with the host Mr, Sam burrata, and here he is.

B

Good afternoon Nashville and welcome to what's up Asheville at wres, Radio, 100.7, FM and radio show discussing project and initiatives of the city of Asheville. As you know, I'm temporada communication and public engagement specialist, and this week I was lucky enough to get Alex Cole, the urban planner and manager for the serious historic preservation program to join me and by that I. By saying that I'm lucky I mean that she's so busy all the time. So it's a pleasure to have you here. Alex thank.

C

You Sam happy to be here.

B

And um I always like to start the show by having my guests, tell me what they do for the city and you know, walk me through your day-to-day life. I know you're very busy with all the work that you do so I'm sure you have plenty to say.

C

Sure so um so, as Sam mentioned, I um uh manage the city's historic preservation program, which is housed within the planning, Urban Design, Department um so and I'm also the staff liaison to the historic Resources Commission of Asheville and Buncombe County. So we have a lot of work that falls under our program. We do everything from design review or development review within our local historic districts. We also have a very robust local Historic Landmark program and we'll talk about that a little bit later, but we have now 50 landmarks in Buncombe County.

C

Our program does cover both the city and county um and we also work really closely with other Regional and state Partners who do preservation, work um and and work in an advisory capacity um with those with those organizations um and probably what will spend the most time talking about today. As far as recent projects we've been working on or architectural survey projects, which is basically the identification inventory of historic resources that we continually update, work on throughout the city and county as as as the years go by so um so yeah, that's kind of.

C

In a nutshell, all the things that fall under under our program and.

B

How do you do this um I guess once you um take a project in and you do the survey for it? How does that take place? How does it look like yeah.

C

Sure so oftentimes these are Grant funded projects. Our programmatic budget is a little bit limited. We do because I work in the planning department.

C

We have a lot of different priorities for a very small department, so we are always trying to make the best of the resources that we have and we do have multiple Grant options that we apply for every now and then to help fund. These um the survey work or other extra projects that we might want to tackle. So we go through the Grant application process. Usually, and then um then we go through a competitive selection process to hire a consultant or Outside Agency to help us do the actual work in the field.

C

So my role is really more like project management. Okay.

C

um So once once the ball gets rolling, so working with the community to do engagement and all those fun things that we do whenever we have big projects going on.

B

And so the surveyors then go out, they do their work and you compile it uh basically yeah.

C

So the usually a survey project will result in raw data. That's sort of like identifying built features, so they might go in a neighborhood house to house and describe each individual Resource as we call them or building or structure from an architectural and historical standpoint, and then that's all uploaded into our states that historic preservation office database.

C

So we can use it from a GIS standpoint and then there's also a draft survey report that comes out of it and the survey report has a historic narrative and talks about the evolution of a particular neighborhood or area. That's pretty cool.

B

And so what does it mean for something to be historically um well preserved? What do you call it? Yeah.

C

So in in the United States, we call it historic preservation in other countries. They call it conservation um it. It means that we are um basically we're identifying. What historically is important to our community and you in our country the metric is 50 years or older is what we consider to be historic.

C

um Although it can, it can be younger buildings there's places sometimes so it could, and it could also be a landscape or archaeological resource. So it covers this kind of broad swath of of historic and cultural things that that we identify as being valuable to our you know, City or organization or place or or.

B

Even small communities, yeah exactly I, know you even knee-deep in uh some projects lately. um Do you want to tell us about some of those sure.

C

Sure so, probably one of the biggest ones that we've worked on, we started in 2018. We really from looking at the gis data that we have available.

C

We could see where, since survey working, our country started back in like 1970s, most typically for most most communities and so, um and so we could look at the gis data and see where there were holes in our community where we hadn't focused survey work, and you could see particularly that we hadn't focused our work on neighborhoods of color, and so we really felt like it was important to shift our programmatic Focus to be more from an equity standpoint.

C

We really wanted to try to identify resources that might be historically important to our bipod communities with we've started our work specifically on our historically black neighborhood, so restarted that project in 2018. That was kind of a first phase. If you will, we didn't have a very big project budget, so we really were we're kind of doing this in phases. So.

A

C

um We were able to identify or inventory if you will 75 resources that were kind of scattered throughout the city, um so we just finally were able to publish the the final draft survey report, which is I, would highly encourage anyone who's interested to read it it's on the city's website.

C

If you go to the planning, Urban Design Department's website, specifically, um it's got an amazing historical narrative that really I think, at least for me, was highly educational and meaningful to understand our African-American Community, better from a historic perspective, so I'm glad to have that work under yeah.

B

I'm glad that you did it I mean it historically. You know so many communities have been left in the shadows for so long and it's it's a really nice thing that you have done here to bring that back out to light and to publish it and anyone. Anyone can read it correct. It's not there's not a fee behind it.

C

No, it's any it's it's available to the public. Whoever wants to use it, it can I think help inform other projects within the community and um so I'm. Just really, you know happy to have been a very small part of this work. um You know I'm moved to Asheville 20 years ago and I had no idea when I, uh first of all, when I moved here, I had no idea.

C

I'd work in the field that I do, but now that I do I am happy to be able to focus our program in areas that feel very meaningful to to partner with the community on so.

B

Can you tell us a little bit more about the findings of this recent survey? Sure.

C

So um so that survey um was I, like I, said a first phase, where we're really gonna, like it's kind of our jumping off point right, so we're taking that information and looking at where we want to go next. As far as our next phase of survey, which will probably be kind of going neighborhood by neighborhood um and and trying to find funding for those, you know future phases.

C

um It happened, sort of organically, following up on that project, being nearly completed, that we ended up partnering with the Burton Street Community Association about a year and a half or so ago to work on their survey project.

C

They are an environmental justice community, and that is a designation that comes out of environmental review whenever there's big Federal projects, especially Highway projects involved, so obviously they're going to be re-impacted or impacted Again by the I-240 26 Corridor project right, and so as part of that the ncdot worked with them to create like a mitigation plan, and one of the things that came out of the mitigation plan was to create a pattern book which is sort of like it's.

C

It's a basically a way to communicate to potential developers and others in the community what the historic character is of a neighborhood. Okay,.

B

To try to keep the um the character yeah.

C

Exactly so, we as a first phase to doing the pattern book for them. We, my department, has we contracted with snme, which is a regional, consulting firm to um to update their survey. Their architectural survey they've had multiple architectural surveys over the years in that neighborhood, so we really needed to update it, update it with specific information about the building features themselves, so that we know how to draft the um the pattern book, which will be a digital tool. So we're excited to work on that. It's kind of like a pilot thing.

C

We've never done a pattern book before um and usually they're paper documents, or even a virtual, um like a digital flipbook of sorts right, but we're gonna build ours to be in the format like um if you're not not familiar with esri's story. Maps I really am not Google them. There's. There are story, maps for everything, I mean all topics and they're um it's.

C

Basically it's a GIS based platform, but it's you can add photos and text all different kinds of content, um and so it's a really great interactive way to communicate in the digital format. So.

B

Gis is the mapping system where you can like put a pen in that location, and you can find more information about it.

C

Exactly it's yeah geographic information system and we use it a lot in planning. So thank you for asking me to clarify how we use that as a tool, it's usually for mapping and looking at different layers of data, so that we can kind of better approach. The projects that we work on the esri story. Map platform has trended a little bit beyond. Just it's like the map, I would say, is not always the most dominant feature.

C

When you go on to a historical map of Any Given topic, because there's all different ways, you can format the information and make it really cool and user like visually interesting and user friendly.

B

So I can find the landmark and learn about the history of it, and you know just how it's changed over time.

C

Yeah definitely definitely the pattern book will be a tool that will try to help you know share with developers so that, like, as you mentioned, that whatever future development occurs, there is more contextual or sensitive to the existing historic Fabric in that neighborhood.

B

More respectful, yeah.

C

Yeah exactly yeah.

B

The one thing you know happens all the time recently I imagine just these neighborhoods keep being pushed back or change, um and then the history behind them is gone, which is a shame, but no hopefully this work you've been putting in will help avoid all of the in the near future. So that's a really positive thing: yeah.

C

I hope so you know, there's no Perfect Tool, but I think we're trying to think creatively from a historic preservation perspective to make sure that we're um serving our community as best as we can rather than I. Think it to me personally, looking at historic preservation and kind of the national framework that we work under um I see some of the trends shifting towards not being quite as rigid and exclusive of communities of color, as it has been historically because I think.

C

Anyone who works in the preservation field could tell you that some of the rules and regulations around historic designations in particular are pretty limiting yeah. um There's a Integrity standard that we talk about. That's I won't go into getting the Weeds on with you today, but it basically excludes a lot of the neighborhoods that have been impacted by projects like urban renewal in the past because they might have their historic fabric if you will might have been disrupted by those projects and Burton Street.

B

C

Great example of.

B

That so well, do you managed to get the burn, Street um architectural survey on his way? Yes,.

C

Yeah, it was, it's been a great project to work on, and it was part of their I should go back and say- and maybe I didn't say this, but um but they're part of the the mitigation that they worked on with ncdot was this neighborhood plan, and this was the pattern book was identified as a strategy in their neighborhood plan, and so we've been working closely with them to not just do the pattern book, but other things that are important to the neighborhood as far as mitigating gentrification and Etc and other important things.

B

C

I should also say that that project was also funded by a donation from the Community Association, with a small match from our departmental budget. So I think that's important important to know that we're super grateful that they were willing.

B

To partner with us very important, yeah I mean this is something that the community clearly wants. Yeah.

C

B

You know it's been done, it's been, it's been a long time coming um well we're on the topic. um I would love to hear your experience with the recently approved um Walton Street local Landmark destination, yeah.

C

So that's um a great example of why survey work is important in the work that we do because it was identified.

C

The Walton, Street Parking pool were identified as properties that were good candidates for um for historic, designation, so there's kind of two main types of historic designation, um probably the one that's most familiar to people is the national register of historic places, and that is a program that's administered by um by the state, historic preservation office under the guidance of the National Park Service and it's primarily honorific um a designation type and then at the local level, as I mentioned early on in our conversation is local Historic, Landmark designation, which is functions more like a zoning tool where, if a property is designated, then it has certain Protections in place.

C

Okay, and so any changes like to the park and pool since Walton Street was recently designated. um They.

B

Have to take that into account before making any big changes.

C

Exactly exactly so, that's a lot of what the historic Resources Commission does in their work is, you know, Parks might put together a plan for the improved amenities in the park, and then they go to the historic Resources Commission and they go through this. What we call design review process to make sure that the historic features are treated sensitively and whatever work happens there and.

B

This is an extra aid for the community members who feel strongly about these historical landmarks to say Hey, you know, take a take another look yeah, instead of just drawing it or changing it in a way that will make it just completely different from what it used to be exactly.

C

And that process is, is a public hearing process too. So whenever a project is going through, design review like that, then there's opportunity for the public to weigh in um and so that's another benefit and I should also highlight that Walton Street happened to be the 50th local Landmark, 50th yeah. So I was a happy coincidence, but we're really really pleased that it worked out that way. Great.

B

C

B

And you you mentioned before um that, there's only three African-American landmarks as of now in Nashville. Yes,.

C

Well sorry, Walton Street would make the fourth.

B

Of the fourth okay yeah.

C

So the why am I building which I would say most most of us who live here in Asheville, are familiar with um Stevens Lee gymnasium and the South Asheville Cemetery, okay, those are three of our already designated landmarks before Walton Street that are specifically historically important to the African-American Community here in Asheville and Buncombe County and um I would encourage you if you've never visited South Asheville Cemetery. It's pretty incredible place!

C

It's where, if you don't know this, that, where the Smith McDowell house they're enslaved people were interred in this burial ground, that eventually became a more formalized cemetery and it's through the hard work of several individuals that that place was preserved over time, because it kind of over time like had gotten overgrown and stuff, and so there's actually a cemetery Association. That does a lot of really really amazing work to care for.

B

It yeah I had no idea. It's.

C

It's hidden, it's within the Kenilworth neighborhood, so I think a lot of people don't know. What's.

B

There well I, think Amazon helps to go to um your department website and just look at all. The different landmarks have a little scavenger hunt with all the different landmarks in the city that.

C

Would be fun, maybe you can help me set that up, but yes, there we do actually have a story map of our Landmark. So if you're interested in knowing more, you can go on our website and check that out, it's got photos some current, some historic of all the different landmarks in the county. So it's it's pretty cool to check out.

B

Yeah and going back to the pool, um do you think the reaction? What do you think the reaction was to the um to The Landmark, you know being designated as a historical landmark.

C

It seemed overwhelmingly positive to me: I I, the the people that I talked with in the community or shared their their feelings with me. I have very deep emotional Family Ties to that space and that's not something that we get to know every time a landmark designation comes through it's oftentimes very much focused on the actual just.

B

The history, the.

C

Building or you know, or the architecture, so in this case it was really neat to hear some personal stories about. You know how how how super.

A

C

A place it is, and obviously there have been many many resources in our historically African-American community that were lost to urban renewal. We had multiple Urban renewals projects here that um where there were many, many resources that were lost so.

A

C

Definitely one of the you know institutional kind of heart of a place that we're really glad to help preserve yeah.

B

C

That that's what the community wanted.

B

And I, it's also a very good tool, for you know: people who are looking to either working or renewing or even fixing uh without the historical knowledge and the impact it has on the community and just because they don't know. But hopefully you know this Landmark designations will help. You know people make better decisions and it's not out of bad will. Clearly, it's just ignorance on you know the history of it. Yeah.

C

Exactly and that's kind of why we embarked on the journey that we did back in 2018 and to really understand you know the historic character of our community from uh from a more inclusive perspective, because really we hadn't- we hadn't done that before, and so we want to make sure that our historic narrative and the Legacy we carry forward includes everyone in the community and and I. You know it's it's every time we do a new project, I get to learn what is important to the community I.

B

Was going to ask you yeah how much since moving to Asheville 20 years ago, how much has your scope of the history of it changed vastly.

C

I I actually entered the field of preservation with quite a different kind of agenda. In my mind, it was more focused heavily on downtown and my over the years I've been with the city for about eight years now, over the years of doing this work, my my kind of what what is Meaningful to me to be a part of has expanded in a lot of different ways and and so I I. You know I try to take that into my day-to-day work.

B

Yeah so I bet. It also makes you more appreciative of like where you live for.

C

Sure we have an incredibly Vibrant Community here um and I. You know I think if I had to say one thing about historic preservation, that I think is probably a little bit of a misperception is that historic preservation means that something stays the same forever or is static. You know it really to me is a dynamic field. It's a way that we highlight our like our common stories.

B

C

And what connects us to not only our place where we live in our community, but to each other and like that's, that's the important part of why I do what I do to me.

B

It sounds like you really love it and the impact that it does I.

C

Do- and you know some days, my job is- is more stressful than others and busy busy. But you know there are these moments where I get can take a step back and look at the work. We've been doing and feel feel really proud. Yeah.

B

I mean you've been working on this for for years. Yeah, that's a that's a lot of time to put into a project and he's finally seeing it take shape and solidify itself into something that people can read. It must feel great. It.

C

Does it does it's a small thing and the grand big picture of what the city is doing? You know one small little little Cog if you will but I I, you know it's my area of expertise and I'm happy to do. Do my part for the community that I've, you know, lived in and loved for for for such a long time. So.

B

I love it. um So how does one go to begin as historically historical survey project? Is there something that I can come to you and say? Hey I want to learn more about this thing, because I think he has a historical value, or do you go through a more rigid process of choosing.

C

And it kind of depends on um on what like, if you are, if you called me and said, Alex I'm interested in knowing about this historic farm in Fairview, right.

A

C

Either you own or someone else's own, then we could kind of give you advise you on how to go about researching that, typically with a city with a project that we undertake we're kind of methodical about like how we're prioritizing our work, because if we put a project like the one, we started in 2018 on our work plan, it obviously takes a lot of resources to get those across the finish line.

C

So we try to be pretty strategic about how we lay those out and I would say the grant monies that are available, or probably every two to three years that we are able to to work on something like that. So, okay,.

B

But um like so in 2018, when you want to make a more Equitable approach to historical uh designations, how do you specifically found the Walton Street pool? How did that fall in your lap? That's what I'm asking okay.

C

I see um so the the consultant we hired actually drafted.

C

The report in one of the sections in the report was what resources that you surveyed as part of this project are good candidates for either National registered, designation, local Landmark, designation or both okay, and so there were three that came out of that report, one being Walton Street Park and the other two were rabbit's Motel on um on Ashland Cox I get those two streets mixed up all the time, but um but it's a really amazing property and uh and then also the Wilson building on Eagle Street and.

B

Or this um historical surveys to come is that what's next in your plate,.

C

I think so we are working on another Grant funded project which is sort of a it's a organizational thing: we're working on hosting a Regional training for other people in Western, North Carolina that do the kind of work that I do. Okay, um and so that's kind of the big thing that I've got going on right at this moment. But beyond that, I think we're looking at yeah just what what do we want to do in our next fiscal year as far as survey work and aligning that with the Grant application.

B

C

That are out there so yeah.

B

Are you the only historical um preservation person for this city or, yes,.

C

Pretty much I mean I I'm, since I'm the program manager and I have a master's degree in historic preservation. It's really my kind of wheelhouse and area of expertise. We do have one other staff, member that works in the planning department, who's amazing and does a lot of support, work for um our the historic Resources, Commission and and some other design review and he's he's awesome, so we're lucky lucky to have him, but we're very small staff.

C

I think when we're fully staffed there's only like 14 of us and yeah, you saw our work plan, it would probably scare you, oh.

B

I work with your department right so I I, know I, know.

C

B

um That's really cool, though I mean you have it's just the fact that you know you you're such a small team, but you still put like a hundred percent effort into it every single day.

C

I think we're all really passionate in my department about what we do. I.

B

C

And I and I'm really fortunate to work with other professionals that you know we really take a collaborative approach and we try to look at things holistically and where we can help support each other. We try to do that. So it's it's a good. It's a great environment, yeah I'm.

B

Very happy to help you joined the city during this more. You know, Equitable approach um to how things are being done. um It really puts into perspective. You know different places that I've been in my life and how much of an effort Ash really is actually putting into it.

B

um It's just it's such a positive feeling and I know, there's a lot of work to do, but you know we're trying right.

C

We we I mean I feel, like we've, taken a lot of steps to position ourselves to keep just keep improving and keep improving on what we do, because it definitely should speak to my own ignorance. I wasn't thinking through an equity lens when I first started my work with the city and- um and it was through the hard work of others. That I was able to like educate myself even to some degree, to understand that absolutely.

B

C

Really need to start start looking at the entire Community from from a not I, wouldn't say, planning that I wouldn't say we weren't before, but from the preservation perspective specifically so well,.

B

um Thank you so much for coming, sadly we're out of time, and that usually happens. We have so much more to talk about, but only so much you can fit in half hour, um but before we go um just again, thank you Alex um and to anyone listening. You know we are here for you, the city, we're doing our best to meet everyone's needs and wants, and you know, tell us how we're doing tell us what you want to see.

B

Don we'll be happy to listen to you and you know, just talk to us tell us we're doing a good job, I, also kind of believe or not, and yeah um we'll be back next time to talk about more projects. I think the fire department will be here. So that should be a an interesting conversation, but until then stay tuned and we'll be back for another episode of wres in dodiori. Is 107 FM see you next time, Asheville you've.

A

Been listening to what's up Asheville sponsored by the city of Asheville, in collaboration with wres 100.7 FM, this program will re-air every Monday, Wednesday and Friday at 12 30.. Thank you for listening.