Baseline Protocol Baseline Show - India, 4 Dec 2021

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From YouTube: Baseline Show - India:: 4th Dec 2021

Description

Official Office Hours of Baseline Protocol in India. We invite eminent speakers from various industries and explore use cases of Baseline Protocol.

Hosted By: Samrat Kishor
Guest: Vaishali Srivastava Nagpal

A

Hey everyone. uh I welcome you once again on the baseline show in india. We do this every saturday at 6, 00 pm. uh This is the official office hours of baseline protocol and uh we are joined by, uh of course, mark haddle, our uh our veteran for the india show and and he's he's taking great pains and waking up so early 7 30 in the morning and making it to the show. Thank you so much mark uh you've, been amazing.

A

uh We're also joined by anushri anushri is quickly catching up on attendance of the baseline show in india and she's committed to now making it uh on most of the shows thanks so much anushri and uh and- and we have a very, very special uh speaker with us today, which is vishali nagpal srivastava she's. She is a patent research analyst at rws.

A

I will let her talk more about her trait and her job, but I would just end it with a disclaimer that she's not representing her company she's, come into the show as an individual on my individual invite and her thoughts and opinions which she expresses today. It's just her personal research, okay, so it should not be construed and as as as her company's advice so with that uh vishali. Thank you.

A

So much for taking time out for the baseline show we are, we are building a community in india currently and uh baseline is a is a global phenomena. It's a it's a way to synchronize. We are developing our open source protocol to synchronize systems um in a secure and private manner by using using blockchain a common frame of reference, which is a blockchain right now. So that's how we're developing it. It was co-founded by eny consensus and microsoft and then other big firms in the in the world.

A

They join likes of sap accenture, uh servicenow uh they're. All here we've also done a pilot project with koko in north america. Now that happens to be an anchor project for for the year, which has just gone by, and then there is tons of.

A

uh There are tons of updates, which are lined up for next wednesday's baseline show, uh which is the global baseline show, and- and uh you know this time, we're doing a general assembly and it's going to be a two hour, long general assembly, where we're going to be doing a lot of code, demos as well as announcements for the for the year to come and a yearly wrap as well before we go off for the holidays, especially in the west.

A

So I'm not going to make mark wake up so so early in the morning in the month of the second half of december mark you just have to make it to one more show in this month. Okay, okay, awesome awesome! So with that, I invite vishali vishali go ahead. Please introduce yourself, tell us tell our audience about and- and you know, treat our audience as noobs in the term of in terms of intellectual property, but because we're just getting started.

A

A lot of community members are joining and most of the community members are techies uh in nature. So maybe you use those examples and jargon that you know with the right balance. So with that, I invite you to introduce yourself, tell us a little more about your company, what you do and- and you know what do you see where do you see this heading.

B

Thank you, samrat mark and anushri for inviting me to baseline show and it's it's. The pleasure is all mine, I would say um so. Yeah myself, you know I have been working on patent research uh and, moreover, intellectual property, research and different aspects of ib throughout, like my career last 15 years, and uh have worked in different jurisdictions uh uh like uh in india, in apac region and currently in the uk and europe uh region, and uh my expertise.

B

Majorly lies in patent research, but yes have worked on sales side of ip commercialization part of it, and also also, uh you can say, portfolio management and other aspects of it ib.

B

So that's how different aspects we have been covering as far as uh starting from scratch. For for our audience, I can say that intellectual property research, as the term comes ipr.

B

Now you know it's just a very basic literal, meaning like that anything originating from your intellectual uh thoughts and uh ideas is, is an ip is an intellectual property right. It's a property right. You know, as can be awarded based on your thoughts and and hence anything uh which you generate from ideas and which is new and uh which is a advantage to the society uh which we term as utility. You know the turbines called this utility so which is of use for for society.

B

It's not destructive. Of course uh you know those things come under intellectual property, right protection and uh largely it's. It's uh framed under uh trademarks, which is for protecting the brand of a company copyrights, which is for protecting ideas for literary work, paintings, music and even even your technical codes. The coding language, which is it is used so copyrights for those.

B

It's it's a trade secrets which is, which is something which you cannot bring in public. You know those those aspects come as straight secret. It is geographical indication for things which are linked to a particular geography and at the end it comes as the main thing which is patterns, patents or patterns. You know, however, you can pronounce it in different places. It's it's turned differently, so uh that's basically for all the inventions and majorly related to technology aspects. So that is what uh I have been majorly working on.

B

My background has been mechanical uh mechanical engineering and from there I picked up ip majorly started working on patent research, initially on mechanical uh aspects of inventions and uh slowly uh I added the legal expertise by uh doing draw courses in my in my career and adding more intellectual property knowledge. So that's how uh you know, people who proceed on uh patent work might might want to go ahead. That's how you eventually move on the patent attorney rules and all those things. So you need a technical and legal expertise for those things.

B

So uh you know as far as uh now patents are concerned. It's very interesting, though I would say they are a way of shaping up uh technology globally. uh You know and also for a country. uh You know the way it grows uh thinks the way technology develops. It's it's uh the way uh in industrial advancements in a country happen, and uh they only happen when you have protection over it. You know. Otherwise anybody and everybody can do things. uh There won't be any any uh monetary or uh commercial benefits out of things.

B

So how how will the economy develop? So everything is, you know linked with the technology technical development we can see. Like you know, the world evolved from industrial revolution.

A

B

That is where people like thomas alva edison, came into picture and they actually they might not be. uh You know they are theoretical. uh I would say inventors of fun. They might we. We have been claiming that there have been so many thoughts about inventing electricity, and so many uh people might have thought about, but he holds a patent for it, and that is why he's called the inventor of it. You know. So that is how, unless you register anything over a registering body, uh you know over a legal authority.

B

Until then you can't have protection over it. So that's how uh everything comes into picture and uh that's why this domain itself is very important. Very.

A

Interesting so so vishali, and thank you so much for that. For that you know setting the context of this conversation and you know bringing in some really um you know you, you try to really dump it down for us, and thank you thank you for that. I asked different, but what you, the important aspect that you brought in was protection. I think that ip protection, that is, that is the key for all the conversation that we're that we're looking at, in fact my own company. You know we applied six patents last year.

A

I think it was last about two years back and nothing really moved. You know even I, as a layman, started doing courses on wipo just just going through vypo courses, um of course freely available stuff. I didn't pay anybody anything for that, but but I started research just to understand what this world is and how complex this is, and I paid so much money to somebody to do patterns, and why is it not really getting? Why is it not moving? You know so so I think that's so so.

A

When I talk about my side of the world, people see it as two two things you know when we talk about patterns, we we talk about. You know one side on one side, people get rich doing patterns okay and on the other side, people people say that, oh you know what you never get patents and- and it is understandable for people to to sort of say that, oh you don't get patents when, when they've not really invented something they've tried to copy something out, uh but for for people, how do people get rich with patents?

A

We're going to come to that point? Okay, but save that for later, in the show? uh What I want you to touch upon is you know what are the various steps involved when we talk about intellectual property? How do we see it? How do you classify intellectual property for a company for an individual?

A

How is it important? You know? How is it- and you know why, because you're on the baseline show we'll also talk about transferability? We also talk about rights. uh Let's talk about, you know how is data related to these protected and shared as and when required?

A

So so, please try and touch upon those aspects as well.

B

Right, oh, you know. As we uh talk about patterns, so we talk about first inventions. uh You know from there everything originates and uh from inventions you move on to uh putting it in a particular format and then filing it ahead with the.

B

That's how you can say the data aspect comes into picture that there's a lot of data which is related to different inventions and all that needs to be collated at a place. uh You know now. uh I would say that you know to start with patent as a jurisdiction. Specific thing every country manages their own intellectual property. So it's a country specific right that you get it's like. You know your house, property is in a country. You can't claim those rights by going somewhere else. It's also physically located there, but a similar intellectual property rights.

B

You get right now in a particular country. If you want this right in another country, then you need to go ahead and file in the in the country separately. Okay, so every country maintains their own databases where uh the filed a copy of your invention in a particular write-up manner. We call it a patent application draft. In that code, you can say systematically written format is submitted.

B

Okay, now uh from there it has a particular life cycle where, uh within uh 12 to 18 months, it is first published okay. So when once the data is submitted, it is grounded. It's not physically available anywhere, but uh making it available on a website means they are publishing further okay, so once it is published, that is where everything comes into picture. That now you can access that data. Now it is in the public domain, how you get grant over it as a right is much leader.

B

You know it involves lot of steps like there will be a technical examiner allocated to your uh application once it is submitted, and then they will assess that application over uh its novelty and over its use and different other legal aspects of getting a patent, and then only it will get granted and the whole process goes for three to four years in most of the countries.

B

Okay, so that's why um you might be still waiting for your uh applications and it again depends on uh how much pointers it is qualified by the examiner.

A

B

You know and there's a back and forth communication between the applicant and examiner on the questions they will raise, and then you need to answer those, then. Finally, it will get granted okay, they.

A

B

Conduct a test over it like checking the nobility by doing further research on whether there is any prior or similar to that or not. So that is how the process of three to four years goes. But the data aspect comes into picture right once it is available at the public domain, and that is where uh researchers and uh well anybody who's interested in that, as in that domain will be able to access things.

B

So how it happens is that once you know the data is published, it is available on the country's website, countries, patent website or intellectual.

C

B

A

B

uh Uspto.Gov is a website which is owned by a u.s patent office and they will publish anything after 18 months of your application submission on their website as a publication. uh Similarly, espacenet is the website for european patent office, which is epo. Okay, uh now wipo publishes their own. uh It's called as pct application, uh so wipo publishes those applications. Then indian patent office has their own gadgets where they can publish, I would say about 20 years back or 15, 20 years back, things were actually published in physical libraries.

B

There used to be physical papers available and they used to be called as gazettes and they were submitted in the patent office. Libraries in delhi uh you know near dwarka, you have the patent office. We have done that in early ages that we used to go to the library and search from there. Similarly, uh so everything is now digital but yeah, it used to be a tough tough time for earlier researchers.

B

I would say so uh that's how things are available in public domain and now what happens is like uh you know, uh data centric people or people. Like you know, companies which are actually preparing databases for consolidating this information from different countries. They will access the uh they will have rights to access apis of those websites and pull out the published application in in a particular time schedule. You know like every day they might be pulling out data or every every month, once they might be pulling out data.

B

For example, one of the consolidated uh free database example, which I can give you, is google patents, okay, so patents.google.com. If you open uh it's a it's a consolidation of different countries. Now, where from where? Is it getting the data? It's actually not getting the data in in any other way, they are accessing each country's website of patent publications and then pulling out data and compiling them once it is pulled out, then any other way any database would work even the way google works or google scroller works. uh It it indexes everything together.

B

Oh you know, makes it accessible for the user to search it through different uh categories. Like keywords, uh there are other things like uh patent classification, uh which is a way of uh which is a standard way of in category indexing. It, as defined by uh wipo and uh other patent officers. They've stood together and created a consolidated classification code for these.

A

Super super. I was just going to ask you that, because, when you said that there are so many countries involved in so many government offices involving so many publications involved, I was actually wondering how do they get right? When I call an apple an apple, will you call an apple than apple in in other part of the world? So I think you sort of answered that question that waipo is acting as that. That lazy one.

B

Yeah yeah, it's like uno, is there. Similarly, vipol stands for for us on ip.

A

You know it's a centralized.

B

Body that helps there has been different treaties. Just like you and treaties. There have been different treaties on how to manage the the uh intellectual property uh in different countries and standardizing it. You know together for all jurisdictions, so uh that's how uh you know, there's already a well-defined coding for each technology. Now, if you talk about uh you know in computer, science, hardware will be will be different. Software will be different within software.

B

uh You know, uh maybe I don't have very good experience with it with a mechanical person, but uh coming down to to that level. That blockchain will be different, and uh you know uh maybe uh just a general uh api aspect or other things related to software might be completely different and those classes are already defined in those granular levels and it is an evolving system.

B

uh Every time some new technology things come, the classifications are updated, so there's a way to search through classes, there's a way to search through inventor names, there's a way to search through company names. The applicant companies, which are there.

A

B

And so different aspects and keyword also things have evolved now people do uh stemming of the words and bring in concept searching now. Okay, so.

A

There's also contextual, searching.

B

Yeah the context.

A

B

Yeah, so that's their own google patents. Oh now, this is a free database. You know once you come down to paid databases which, probably like my company uses and different companies use it. So there are different paid database services which are more advanced which have access to like paid access to different countries, so they have access to the data even earlier.

B

As far as I know, google patent updates once a month, but other countries, like paid databases, updated on a daily basis. You know.

D

B

Their indexing is even more uh systematic where, over the machine, um machine level of indexing, there's a manual intervention and.

D

B

Of those technologies come into picture and further refine the index.

A

Their accuracy will be higher. That means.

B

A

Interesting to know that somebody's doing better at these things than google.

B

Yeah and then they create those things like uh you know: landscape of the technology and creating clouds and bubbles of the data. Already, where you can, just you know, put a concept and things will come out. Okay. Now I talk about challenges and all this you know it all sounds very good that, yes, this is doable now. The data is very well categorized.

A

Yeah challenges.

B

Come like you know why. Professionals like us are still there and we are doing the manual research on this data and uh companies come to us for service where they need. uh You know an ip research to be done or a patent research to be done in a particular technology and give them uh information like. Are there still prior art existing? Do they have.

A

B

To go ahead and file such a patent, like you said you know, you file the patent, oh before even filing. If a research is done, probably it's a lot more time. Saving for companies, like uh you know those who might be doing 10 000 filings in a country.

A

Absolutely absolutely we paid for that as well. You know.

B

Yeah so you've paid and you are expecting return out of it. You know like how quickly I can get my patent, but before that you know any research in a before the filing would have helped you in giving the confidence that my patent will get successful in another.

A

B

To four years- and uh you know uh this is well protected, because my research is sorry so right, that's where people like us come into picture right.

A

B

uh You know it's, it's a very uh you can say automated with artificial intelligence and the data is well available.

A

Is it because I I keep hearing all these stories, but then there are these years of waiting, so it's sort of contradictory mark by the way, and so sorry uh you know I I I'd like to bring in mark here because mark is a director of innovation and- and you know with with your position mark, you would have seen so many inventions or maybe new things happening. If not really you know inventions per se. So what has your experience been with with patents.

C

Well, generally, I mean patent. Basically, will you know, give um a jurisdictional blessing that you can profit from and also uh defend against any imitators or people, and uh that is actionable in the legal system? You can actually take them to court without a patent.

C

You really don't have that type of leverage, um because once you get the patent it is, you know recognize that you are the inventor and you are the uh sole um beneficiary of any type of commercialization yeah, and so this is allows you to license. You know, give permission uh to for others to use it.

C

um You know provided that they compensate you for it, and so it's always um uh really interesting um to see a lot of the things that are. You know that are patented. You know, I don't see it so much right now um uh in innovation, uh you know. Certainly we used uh we'll use. You know, component ideas that you know have been patented that I'm sure that we have been licensing from, but you know right now in innovation, we're not trying to make any money off of it.

C

Just yet we're just trying to you know, contribute to the body of work. You know involving uh the uh the idea, uh but in my former career um I was an insurance broker and you would have many people that would come in and say I have an invention here that I am going to commercialize and in order for me to um you know, if it's an object, that's going to be on store shelves are something that might be listed in a website or included as a component in a larger uh invention.

C

um We need liability insurance, you know, should what we have and um you know in order to do that, you have to be very thorough. You have to put together an insurance application that includes all the product specifications the patent, uh if it's necessary, in fact it's very common that you will use artifacts from the patent application that michelle was talking about. You know for uh for liability insurance to secure a quotation for that, and I've seen a lot of really interesting things out there.

C

When you look at it from a um from a risk management standpoint, uh you know it makes makes for a lot of fun war stories and stuff.

C

I remember I actually had a call from someone that needed five million dollars in liability insurance and what he had invented in his garage was a uh air pressure um controller that would basically uh control the um the amount of air pressure within a system, and this was going to be used in air braking systems on large vehicles.

C

Now there are only two types of vehicles that use air brakes. Really it's going to be large, semi tractor trailers and school buses, and if you look at it from a liability standpoint, yeah perform or actually it doesn't even need to be zeroed in uh because there is a certain component part that would compromise the braking system.

C

uh He is going to be draw I mean the invention will be drawn into any type of liability, um lawsuit yeah, so I mean we got to see so many that were that were really uh interesting, particularly within the medical field.

C

um I had one that um people called me up in a panic and saying we need a million dollars in in insurance coverage, and uh you know I said well send me your tell me a little bit about your product. Send me some of your specs and everything, and this was a um an ostomy product. You know ostomy so uh and it is for uh what we call neonates.

A

C

That are within a week of being born, and you know there is you know sometimes to where you know. The um gastrointestinal system has not fully formed or maybe kind of created a little bit of a uh a a kink in in the plumbing, and it's actually a lot more common than we would think, but uh and it's easily correctable, but it is invasive.

C

You have to actually make an incision go in put in this particular ostomy product and then leave it there for about uh probably 45 days and then and then be take taken out so, but um what these people did um was they invented a uh more simplistic design that uh this allowed for the infant, and you know the mother to be released at about the same time, so they're taking an invasive ostomy product and they are taking it home.

C

Now, if you start to think about this, um you have parents brand new parents and something is wrong with their child. So there are psychological things going on at the time there and um you know uh and oftentimes parents. You know that brand new parents, uh you know unless they have had specific medical training, are not going to know how to do this and are not going to be in their best mind because they are brand new parents, and so um you get to see some really interesting ones on there.

C

So I was like um so you have a neonatal product that is outside of a clinical setting and you need a you only have to have a million dollars in coverage. I'm thinking.

A

I was just going to say that that this guy was very optimistic.

A

C

Required to have and so and actually akin to pulling a rabbit out of a hat. I found them um what we call a one dollar rate. uh One million was ten thousand dollars and, of course they they screamed bloody murder. They said, oh that's, too much money. All that said, I'm like they can believe it. Do you want your million dollars you're, paying a dollar to get 10 you're, getting a whole million out there and you're only paying a dollar. You know, for you know one percent of it yeah.

C

You got to see so many of those so within patents, though, um it's really interesting because uh you of course have the use, but you also have to create a lot of the protections um that need to be put in place for any consequence that may arise out of the use or possession of your particular product or idea I mean it doesn't have to be tangible.

C

I mean if someone was injured by a you, know, judicious application of your idea. uh You are going to be considered liable, so.

A

um Interesting, I I I don't know how elon musk is protecting himself and he shares all his patents with others, but we're going to talk about that when vishali comes to commercialization, so so yeah vishali over to you. We were talking about challenges.

B

By the way, I agree so much with you, it is a complicated process. It has a lot of just because it is intangible. There are so many abstract things involved with it that you know how how you actually get the protection and and later on, to commercialize. First of all, it is very it used to be an interesting.

B

You know, accolade for a company to have patents. First of all, they were all involved and now now that the shift is towards how to actually make money from funding, because at the end it is your property. You know just uh it's not just uh if a company is investing so much in research like he mentioned the example of pharmaceuticals or medical domains, you know, or to men, to prepare a medicine, for example the vaccines of covered.

B

You know cases which we have been seeing, why the rights only are given to special companies like astrazeneca or pfizer, because they have done a good amount of research, and that is how the vaccines have come. They have in their research, is also trials which they might have done and from there things have things have come now.

B

You know every country is dealing with it like this that first, the rights are given to those companies to manufacture and sell it to the governments and make it available to people, and at the same time um you know it's it's they. The governments are ensuring that nobody copies it and starts selling, something which, for which standard process of trials might not have been practiced. So in in case anybody any country a company wants to prepare it. They have to go and seek the technology from those companies.

B

Take an authorization like a license or- or you know, approval from those companies get their labs checked out first, and only then you can prepare such a thing, because if the vaccines fail, if it's a major hazard for humanity so coming to pharmaceuticals, it is it is a major aspect of protecting their intellectual property and once it comes to commercialization.

B

I think pharmaceutical companies do benefit a lot because they they do uh uh have different costs associated with the medicine. And that's you know. That's where they try to compensate on their research. Oh the challenge actually happens in software cases. I would say, because.

C

I actually had a question within the pharmaceutical um uh space uh within the u.s it is you can expect pharmaceutical companies will spend um for every successful drug that is released. They have spent close to one billion dollars and invested, probably anywhere from five to seven years of research.

C

Once that is granted, you know in pharmaceutical as a matter of public policy that patent protection will sunset, uh they only have eight years that they will be able to. uh You know, have exclusive rights, exclusive rights to produce it themselves or license others, and after that has um expired, uh then they no longer have the patent protection, which is why you have generics right, because it is a chemical. You know formula that can be synthesized in the lab scaled up to production.

C

um Does that exist uh in india and elsewhere in the world to where you only have a small window of time that you enjoy that patent protection.

B

Yes, mark that's a very good point. Actually, oh, so it is an exclusive ride bound by a time period. It's not a lifelong exclusive right, uh so once the filing is done usually as per uh intellect wipo uh standards, it's 18 to 20 years of protection or exclusive right that somebody gets, and that includes the three to four or five years of grant or period that you get and that's why you know for the medicines it takes further long because in u.s there are there's an fda approval.

B

There's an orange book thing: uh I'm I'm not an expert with it, but those are further procedural delays that uh pharmaceutical things uh expect in u.s, and that is why the sunset might happen much later, as you're saying eight years, literally, it's 20 years in u.s for any patent to have exclusive rights only and.

A

B

Is when generic players come into picture and from there after the rights have finished, then they can start.

B

uh You know copying the thing and then they can use it freely with without any further permissions required from the applicant.

B

So that's there, but then there there are uh techniques which other companies have started gaining for for such technologies is called as umbrella protection, so they will go on with adding new inventions related to the same thing and uh keep it filing in different uh time intervals, and that is how they will get more and more protection for longer time, but definitely it ends somewhere somewhere for sure.

A

Okay, this is this is very interesting so and- and you know, vishali just to go a step further in the in the example that you talk about pharma. So if, let's say these patents are licensed to a party to manufacture, um is there a way to find out automatically that how what is the extent of manufacturing that they've done? If, let's say we ask for a hundred thousand pills uh of something, have they done a thousand or have they done more, uh which they will rebrand as their own and set it to the market?

A

So is there a way to automatically and find out wire systems and and and that's where I'm just trying to find an angle for baseline that how do we? How do we make sure that even while, no I mean I'm not asking them to share with me their? You know their way of making it, but is there a way we can find out what how what's the quantity they've made just select values? Can we bring that back.

B

um See I I can give from examples which uh something like a production line is there you know and uh either you uh license it out fully or you lease out your patent. You know for a certain time period uh that so and so company you are leasing out your technology and enabling them to manufacture from there, and you have certain percentage profit out of it. uh Now how how to monitor the units is something completely the way you will monitor.

B

A production line will be maybe through product management systems or maybe through uh you know, by end of year, managing the balance sheets and then checking the production uh capacity from there. Oh generally, these systems do have uh checkpoints that there's no data fudge or any any other things, so it it is very generic to other project management systems. I would say.

A

So so so you mean to say that, yes, okay, there is a project management system, but I think what it boils down to is the agreement between the two parties right. So they.

B

Can choose their way.

A

They can change.

B

Their way, yeah the license agreement or the lease agreement will have those clout clauses. You know. uh Usually it is like you know, commercializing any any uh thing like you know you you lease out your car for something you know, then you know that if there are ten rides done, then you might you will get you know this much. Fortunately, then, if you then 20 rides then further, you know you get more profit out of it. So those those things, then you would put a gps monitor and then check it out.

B

You know so it is something like this. uh You know that when you are leasing out or licensing out, your technology.

A

B

Have done a full license, then you know.

C

B

Sell it out and uh you you earn one time, but you are doing.

A

B

Thing over uh two years, a renewal kind of thing and then from there also you have, if you have a clause off, if so many production things are made, then this is your profit percentage. If xyz is done, then other things, so those those are the things that you would have in the contractual agreement that you would know. That's that's like any other legal agreement.

B

You know depends on.

A

The clauses there's a lot of background noise on my side because I'm sitting very close to our road, uh but yeah pardon me for that, but yeah. I think this is this is where the interesting part lies mark so mark. What do you think? So? This was an area where I was talking to uh you know vishali and ashri.

A

When we were, we were inviting vishali as a speaker that could we could we try and fit in something. So you know going by the example that vishali just took about gps, which is I, but I will still end up knowing the exact locations where the where the stops were made or where, where the vehicle actually travel. I don't want to do that.

A

For example, my contract is just about the number of trips, so I just want one piece of information, which is uh whether the trips were made so because, because the net displacement of the vehicle will be zero, the vehicle will take around trip and come back, but um whether that trip was profitable, whether that refers to a maintenance, um you know to a service center or whether that was a commercial trip. I just need us, I just need a.

A

uh I just need to listen into that system, to differentiate, to be able to differentiate between those two kinds of tricks. You know whether I, whether I was going for maintenance or whether I was going for a.

A

Used to have gone okay, so so so yeah, so do you think mark? Is that a good use case for uh for for baselining for baselining.

C

As far as you know, looking at um uh you know different types of trips and determining whether one was for maintenance or whether one was a client or you know something that can be billed. You know to some third party as opposed to something else.

C

I would say yes, I mean and where you would have the data sharing um generally.

C

This is where you start to look at who would want who would find this particular method attractive, and I would say anyone that has a fleet of you know a large fleet of vehicles uh that has a telematics.

C

Program uh and stuff and telematics is basically not only am I you know, collecting data about the location and the trip of the vehicle, I'm also collecting data. You know about the vehicle itself. As far as how long has the engine been running, uh what are the tire pressures? When was the last time it had a maintenance interval?

C

Is it still running according to um um manufacturers, uh specifications, the engine or the transmission, or anything like that? You know, and it's one of those where I don't know, if you, if that's going to create a um a an environment uh to where sharing in zero knowledge, would really be um um necessary.

C

um One thing that I would talk to this is I mean, as far as use case for uh for baseline, um you know goes back to the, uh like. My suggestion would be for the uh like. The pharmaceutical.

A

Oh yeah, of course,.

C

A

I just took this as an example, but of course.

C

A

A pharma or manufacturing a car itself, those could be the right uh areas to.

C

Point well, but I mean, but I look at it within clinical trials right now, because clinical trials fall under you know a clinical setting, which means that all of the data in there is governed by uh data privacy, uh very robust uh draconid, even data privacy laws uh with hipaa and phi to where I'm not able to share any type of data and even now you're starting to even have some challenges to see.

C

If I can aggregate and anonymize the data is that still actionable under the data privacy framework um and you've had a lot of blockchain uh dominant solutions that are being introduced for clinical trials, because you have a problem with all of this. Data sharing and pharma companies are going to be spending close to around you know, averaging 7, 500 per patient or subject per visit, and just depending on the nature of the medication that's being investigated.

C

um You know there may be uh certain um procedures are uh protocol for consuming the drug and stuff, and we need to make sure that everyone is is following those protocols. So we can at least have consistent data and you're going to have. um You know many actors within that delivery, because you're going to have the pharma company you're going to have the uh the owner of the building that houses the clinic. uh You know the operator of the clinic and then all of the different.

C

um uh You know people who are involved in that uh are all gathering data and yeah. Can we share it in a uh uh you know, highly restricted particular way and they're used to doing this. Eventually, I mean doing this right now, um but when they start looking at a blockchain solution, um the actual physical or practical application of where do we put the plumbing uh and and how does that work? Who is actually going to uh be um governing the actual blockchain that unifying element?

C

um And that's when we say you know baseline instead of having to really get too deep into the solution, you can baseline your existing systems. You know you're, not introducing really anything profound into your process, environment. You are just basically allowing the method for that.

C

You can prove that universal state of synchronization, which is what everyone wants to have within a clinical trial, because it makes them go much much more smoothly, uh but it also cuts down on the time uh you know by 40 percent, and you know, by shortening these uh um development times or at least data gathering times um goes a long way of actually, you know ultimately realizing if the drug is going to reach fruition or not anytime, that you have these process environments that involve external people.

C

That you know are either unable or unwilling to uh share their data. um You know it creates a little bit a little bit of a problem and baseline offers a solution for that. You know through zero knowledge and um you're able to prove that your record keepings syncs up with that of your counterparties, and you don't care what's on it, you just want to know that we are matched up.

A

Yeah we're in sync all the time constant state of synchronization, yeah cool, um so with that we bring back vishali. So why don't you also start talking about a little bit about commercialization now, um so so suppose, you know: we've gone through the hard part of of research and and we get the grant um what happens after that? How do how do companies make our individuals? How do they make money? What are the various setups and and where do you see, uh monitoring systems or commercialization can be uh automated.

B

See uh yeah, that is a that, is really a challenging part. I would say uh because, and the objective is to make out money from from the intellectual property, and uh it is easier if it is a product format uh you know in manufacturing or in in uh you know tangible format. If the products are there and it has a patent protection, then it is much easier because then it is, uh you know something which can be easily sold.

B

So if it is a manufacturing company which is uh having intellectual property of certain things, they will end up making products and selling and making profit counterfeit. If it is a pharmaceutical company, if they manufacture their own drugs, then they might be having uh you know uh or profit margins from there. So that's one way of commercialization that you create out products. The other way of commercialization is that you license out your technology small.

B

uh You know ip creators, uh they might be just creating certain ide and then going out to bigger firms and selling out their uh patents over as a license.

B

And then you, you, sell your patent and make money out of it. You know that might be an aspect or there are other ways as well, that you know that uh the challenge actually happens in in things like uh software. You know, because in general, uh as a concept, software patterns are not allowed uh even in europe, it is not allowed in india. It does not know.

A

B

Is it is difficult in u.s it is allowed in the name of business methods.

A

B

Business method patent, so what happens is like uh you know? You have something which is running over a computer and it actually goes from one router to another router, and uh that is where the service comes into picture. Like you know, I have a you know: a hedging system where I'm I have my algorithm, which will help you manage the funds properly. This is my uh you know, technology and it will run between the systems and uh uh give out you better. Better output from your investments, yeah.

A

B

But where, where is the data going, the locations are not clear? The machines which are involved in it are not clear.

A

B

The people managing that you know those things will not be clear. So how will you make implementation of things? How will you make enforcement you know?

B

Enforcement is only possible if you can narrow it down or zero it down to a machine or to a person or a company or a location. You know only then you will say this person infringed my technology isn't it, but if it is running through different systems, where you don't even know where the router will be going. Okay.

C

B

It located you know it's maybe somewhere in that antarctica. The data is going to different data centers.

A

Yeah yeah, yeah, underwater, cable, et cetera, but you know in this in the in the example that you just took so so the administration of this software can lie at one place, but the users can be can be anywhere and then in that scenario, these guys will not be able to make any changes to my software program. Right I mean I've just created the software program.

A

I have my administrators all set up um and, and the you know the value that the software is generating is insights, it's information and that information can be consumed on any part of the world. So so does does that still does that still have have a challenge.

B

It does have a challenge, because uh you know your information, you know as a ip filer I would be looking on to like who am I gonna go and who's my infringer? Are you making? uh You know handling my data? Are you an inflinger or any of the end users? You know they are infringements.

B

You know who's gonna, give me uh money out of the infringement.

A

This is very interesting because this is like free advice, you're getting it.

B

Exactly so, you know that is where I I.

A

Came across a company since she brought up small companies selling their patents to larger companies. I came across a company which has no products and 600 patents and.

B

That's all they are doing yeah, so you know theoretically, uh end objective of patent system is not to encourage such firms, they are are called as trolls and they are actually uh just uh uh creating iep and selling it to larger firms. The end objective was that you know company, creates their own intellectual property and creates pro product number, but definitely in today's world to have better commercial aspects. Such firms do exist. We shouldn't be denying.

A

Them and the whole patent system.

B

Is evolving? You know in a more.

B

Now, linked with the patent thing right.

A

B

It is evolving similarly for business methods, they have all software patterns. Things are evolving right now now, wherever they can correlate it with a module or with a computer system or with a with a you know, physical system, to it, those sort of inventions are now getting approved.

B

So if you tie it with a machine it, it is getting uh somewhere uh approved because then.

A

B

Who is the end user and who will be the infringer.

A

Actually, I did that so I yeah that somehow happened with my patent as well my personal pattern. My kid is not happy, I think you're probably hearing her as well so so I did that with my technology, my patent as well, so it was like it was a blockchain patent and and then it had a couple of iterations of questions and answers and then no blockchain patents were about being ordered in india. This is 2017 or something I'm talking about, and then I combined that with a breaking system of a car.

B

A

And it sort of went to the next stage, at least with that, and it just just stayed there forever, but but at least it moved forward, so I think it was so I think it's it's all starting to make sense to me and- and I'm sure people who are watching our show today uh will also get some benefit out of this advice that you're giving us.

A

This is interesting, so you're saying that we should always die. We should try and tie not always, but maybe try and tie these business methods to uh something which is tangible.

B

Right I'll give you a very um old example in our domain is, is about uh gprs technology. You know how things uh started were like three satellites were used to point out to uh uh to a well, you know and find out uh where the oil patrol things will be located. You know that's how a three uh array pointing was being used and as soon as this technology was linked with uh uh car navigation, it became gprs technology and from there gps came into picture and then all the whole navigation system involved.

B

So uh uh you know uh the uh the real thought about the thing was very different: it was used for locating petrol, uh uh you know wells or oil wells in in oceans, but actually the end uh result was much better when it was patented with an application associated with it. Like you, you mentioned an application, you tied it with a machine system, so uh you know that's how uh things are there.

B

Similarly, uh hedging systems were very abstract and they were rejected by the patent offices initially, but as soon as you uh zeroed it to stock markets and tied it with different systems. The whole thing evolved as a different new technology. Where now a number of patents are being filed, so this is how you know a software domain or business methods are evolving right now and um so.

A

What are they tying them to? Are they tying them to servers? Databases.

B

Yes, they are trying to tying them to uh data centers. uh You know, maybe you can bring it.

A

They've accepted.

B

Data center as a physical uh thing, and even if it is located somewhere, the company owning it, will be having its ownership and wherever their headquarters are. There will be the jurisdiction they'll, be charging.

B

You know they can reach to your system and find out, like you know, who actually influenced on the things and from which system things broke out, so if they are linking it with individual user servers. Also- and uh you know that's how things are evolving, whereas uh you know just a code, if it is concerned, it is under copyright.

B

Still, if you write a code in a particular language or using sql or any other html code or anything, then it is linked with copyrights only and uh even uh firms that create special codes or you know, actually have copyright protection and if somebody on open source copies it, they have copyright infringement over things. You know and like that, but as far as thoughts or software ideas are concerned, if it is tied to a machine, then it comes under intel under patent.

B

Is there in terms of commercialization, but tying it with with uh accepted level of machines which are now uh you know in very well usage with people uh is helping things, and you know that's where now the commercialization is improving and firms like google apple ibm in their software patterns. They are, you know they have different ways of filing and they are finding huge number of applications, so they are definitely making money out of it now you know. That is why they are investing in this domain.

B

So I would say, bigger players are making able to make well commercialization out of things now but yeah. The challenge still lies with a small. You know company, which might have one idea and they need to. They can't make production out of it. They can't actually uh own a data center so that you know they can have uh rights over it. Yeah.

A

B

uh I think they end up then selling up their bathrooms. You know.

A

It's the small guys who suffer all the time. You know.

B

No, I think it is evolving, and that is where uh you know. Maybe you can think about what yeah.

A

B

Do to correlate them together and create a bridge between them and uh bigger firms. Actually.

A

B

Are thoughts around this on better commercialization for them by bringing the players together.

A

Okay, so that brings me to you know very interesting question: can firms co-own patents and can they be commercialized in a way that these firms get a part of the revenue? So I'm I'm now trying to draw some parallel with the nft world uh where, where people are creating uh and yeah, I see I see mark now smiling, uh which is which is you know where we can have shared revenue streams amongst creators.

A

Now these guys are creators, and I'm talking about creators in the sense of art uh it can be paintings can be a piece of music where you know, which is the prevalent stage for nfts right now, but people can people there can have co-ownerships. So is that also a possibility with patents? Can two companies and multiple inventors get a different share, and can we also audit that whether people have been getting the right amount or not.

B

Right, so all this is happening. You know uh with technologies, like you know, telecom, okay, it's it's an abstract thing which will be running over wires, but who's, the end user, the hardware device, mobile devices or the uh you know, laptops or other things are there. So if erickson is making, you know things like they have a telecom technology in place where they'll be talking about how to transmit the signals or actually uh you know your samsung or your apple device is something which is letting those signal process and things. So there are.

B

These firms have come together and uh they are sharing their technologies and it is called this consortium of patents in different countries. You know they create a consortium and they share the rights over that and then again there are aspects with it. You know that there will be uh clauses on how much they can share and uh how long they can use each other's technology.

B

There will be renewals as for those agreements and how much profit sharing or money sharing between it will be there between them, and uh you know also, if they add more into those technologies like you know, they add more inventions to those particular technologies and uh whether they will have to bring it to the consortium or they have to again pray. You know have a trade deal.

A

B

Okay, so those things are in place and then there are audits also that whether everybody is following the are specified at the first place or not, and in every country they'll create consortiums, because it's a jurisdictional right, so they might have rights in china consortium.

A

China will be.

B

Different, whereas consortium and u.s will be different, you know so those things are in place, but again only for bigger people. So far.

A

Right, smaller.

B

Players, individual inventors things are still evolving.

A

Exciting, so I'm sure this this keeps you on your toes. You know the parent research thing I used to think this is a. This is a boring thing. You know it's a it's a boring test job but seems like you've got a lot going on anishi. What is what are your thoughts on on today's conversation?.

D

Actually yeah, it is quite uh like an eye opener to me because, um coming from a telecommunication background, I've been looking at the size of data in telco or site of the world and um looking at the subscribers, the mobile data etc. But on this parallel world, where the patents are connected- and you have patents of almost everything, every product specification has to be uh gone going through this process.

D

I'm just amazed at the kind of the amount of data that it is generating per per day per minute in every country and uh having this, uh you know how, where charlie explained like previously, it was all manual and then gradually it became automated, so how it is automating and there is a central system getting established there, which brings us to back to this point of baseline, where you know we would want systems to be in constant sync and.

B

D

Systems which are uh totally different like in pharmaceutical or let's say telecom uh example that we shall do there are are totally different, but the kind of patent data they have uh they have to file needs to be referred at some level, of course, with the legal restrictions. Whatever comes with this whole uh process, but yet there are so many uh data that gets generated. So I'm just uh thinking there is a huge opportunity opportunity, probably where we can automate the things which were being done like on a monthly basis or even.

B

D

Like shall we mention, it is happening on a daily basis on certain paid uh urls.

A

I was actually wondering you know what difference would it make if the database was refreshed on a monthly basis versus a daily basis, but I'm sure there is there is tons going on and then there is, you know I would love to brainstorm.

A

You know on baselining, because you know imagine these biggies of the world six companies, one patent going after them in various geographies. How do you synchronize the use? How do you know the usage data?

A

And you know if, if that is a limitation for them right now, then we could give them a way to to get into those kind of usage-based that so, for example, they're saying you know what it's absolutely impossible, next impossible to measure usage: uh let's just go with uh annual quarterlies those kind of contracts and they also spend tons of money on auditing. I'm sure right.

B

A

Virtually they must be hiring third-party auditors to order this stuff, so yeah, so we're getting there.

D

A

D

Very very interesting aspect, which I realized out of this session, is the infringement portion which, uh like vishali, mentioned, that there is infringement and.

B

D

Of that, the automation probably may be restricted because there's a need of manual, verification and intervention, but what I thought is that this is an old chicken and egg problem. Once you have a centralized system which has all the data available over there, which can be accessed by with a restriction, of course, with the proper. You know, security system, data security that we implement in telecommunication sector as well. uh If we, if that's there in place, then definitely the level of infringement also can be controlled.

D

uh It will bring be brought down. Of course, there would be a road map to it. There would be a design to it and it.

C

D

Part here that uh we are exposed to this whole domain of uh huge enormous gigantic data. I remember uh talking to vishali and she was telling me like they deal with the vacuum cleaners. Now every portion of that small vacuum cleaner, is going through this process. So just it's quite interesting that uh how- and there is a versioning of course, like a small portion of it- has a version and then it gets upgraded. That's how the vacuum cleaners come with the new.

A

Imagine people working for boeing and airbus.

B

Yeah right, you know going in airbus is, like you know, another set of ten thousand pounds, at least so every nook and corner, and it's not just a design, it's also the material being used. It is also you know the way.

A

C

B

Being assembled together, you leave that the gillette uh mac 3 razor has 38.

A

B

You know 73.

B

So it is, it is a hell lot of data. At the same time, it is a lot of it is an industry. You know the way. uh U.S litigation works on intellectual property rights, infringement, uh the infringement suits, go actually.

B

It's not the right way of getting rich, but if.

C

Anybody infringes.

B

You have to protect your rights and get a.

A

B

A

B

um You can see here like 400 millions um for the first lawsuit only was extend given by samsung apple in the.

A

B

Amount was exchanged every time, and this was one country in the u.s. The same lawsuit happened in different countries. Okay, so I mean their compensations in china were different. Their compensations in india were different and their.

A

B

Of korea was completely different, so europe was different, so we all know I mean you know a lot of money is involved, but yes, it's still with the big players. They can improve on infringement. They can afford the services. You know right now which are involved with research in all this. uh But yes, for, I think if you automate things, if you bring out more artificial intelligence into it, definitely the smaller players will also start benefiting from things yeah. So there's a lot to explore.

A

So far mark is there any? Is there any insurance against these liabilities which may arise from infringement.

C

Oh yeah, oh absolutely exactly, but the thing is you have to. You have to have insurable interest and you have to prove that there is a uh tangible. There is a is an economic loss or or or injury that you know will arise out of that. um You know either uh it failing to perform as it uh as it's designed or um uh you know, just in the arising in and out of the intended use.

D

C

You know on there, but you know another thing you know like the charlie was talking about um when it comes to software. um You have a persistent problem when it comes to territoriality, because if you create something it can be consumed easily anywhere in the world. Anyways yeah.

A

I'm thinking of meteors, you know yeah absolutely.

C

But you have to say what is the jurisdiction uh where it's going to? There has to be a resolution of a dispute. uh You know it's very common that you will have people that will manufacture a product. You know either software. You know that can be.

C

You know, consumed anywhere globally, but if there is a problem you have to bring the lawsuit in a u.s court and many licensing agreements you know are going to include that element of territoriality that you know if you're going to use our particular software and there's a problem with it, uh and you want to sue us for it, you have to do it in a u.s court.

C

You know- or some will say, even a british court because the uh you know- and um you know I imagine india is very similar because those legal systems were modeled after you know all right show a lot of commonality. So um it's interesting. You know how you come into the territoriality, but um and I'm sure also that you would have um you know local jurisdiction, taxes.

C

uh You know if you use a certain type of um uh and that she was talking about. You know within telecom uh that uh if you use something you know uh connect onto someone's public a certain country's public network, they want to make sure that you are paying for the use and they're getting the revenue.

C

uh After all, they built it and they maintain it. They want to be, and if you're using it, they want to uh have you pay for the use of it. So um you know a lot of the process environments out of there. It's it's! It's interesting to uh uh really look at it. So.

B

B

Great guys, I so.

A

This was a yeah yeah, so this was a very interesting, very, very interesting conversation vishali. Thank you so much for bringing us all these insights for, for today's baseline show in india um and for our viewers. Please do uh subscribe to this channel and go on to baseline hyphen protocol.org. That's our website! It's it's under revamp.

A

uh You're gonna see a lot of new sections on the website very very soon, but for now just go to the get involved section and uh do follow us on on twitter and youtube uh get involved on our slash channel as well. So with that, it's a wrap for today's baseline show in india. Thank you. So much all of you once again um thank.

B

You guys thank you.

A

See you next week.