►
From YouTube: The Baseline Show: Optimistic Rollups w/ Cartesi
Description
Guest: Gabriel Barros of Cartesi
Topic: Optimistic Rollups
The Baseline Protocol is standard for allowing multiple parties to synchronize their workflows and validate data, without sharing data.
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🎙Hosted By: Samrat Kishor
A
A
I
welcome
you
all
to
the
Baseline
show
this
week
is
is
very
special
because
because
we
have
got
a
lot
of
activities
going
on
within
the
Baseline
protocol
as
well,
and
for
those
of
you
who
are
tuning
us
tuning
to
this
show
for
the
first
time
please
do
subscribe
to
the
Baseline
Channel.
We
keep
making
our
announcements
via
this
Channel,
and
we
do
this
show
every
week
Wednesday
at
noontime
EST
as
an
Outreach
effort
for
for
reaching
out
to
more
and
more
people.
A
Keith
is
super
distracting
right
now
by
the
way.
So
so
we
do,
we
do
the
show
for
as
an
Outreach
effort
for
bringing
on
more
people
more
baseliners
across
the
world.
We
talk
to
Industry
leaders
and
they
installment
ideas
for
for
baselining
and
understand
Trends
about
data
sharing
and
multi-party
coordination.
A
A
You
no
it's
my
honor
excellent
and
we
have
with
gibral.
We
have
our
other
baselineers
as
well.
We
have
Mark
brimsa,
we
have
peace,
we
have
Andreas
yowav
and
we
have
Anand
also
currently
off
video
and
we're
going
to
be
kick
starting.
This
episode
today
with
some
announcements,
so
we
recently
published
our
blog
for
February,
the
Baseline
blog
and
which
is
written
by
Keith
so
Keith.
Would
you
like
to
take
two
minutes
just
to
talk
about
talk
about
the
blog
post
and
and
what
can
people
gain
out
of
that.
C
Yeah
sure
I
think
I
hit
on
it
last
time,
but
just
you
know
kind
of
sum.
Up
again
now
we
published
yeah
yeah
now
now
that
it's
out
there
right
so
the
the
original
idea
you
know
behind
the
blog
was
to
give
everybody
kind
of
a
a
glimpse
through
the
Looking
Glass
into
you
know
how
to
build
a
baseline
system.
Let's
kind
of
you
know,
pull
away
the
Shroud
from
some
of
the
mystery
and
then,
as
I
was
writing
that
I'm
like
well.
C
You
know
we
we
tend
to
as
more
of
US
gain
knowledge
about
the
based
on
protocol.
More
we're
you
know
involved
in
Baseline
every
day
we
take
for
a
granted.
You
know
where
we
started
and
we
kind
of
constantly
go
through
the
cycle
where
we
end
up
back
there
where
we
take
for
granted.
You
know
the
starting
point
right
so
I
thought.
Well,
if
it's
a
new
kind
of
blog
series,
maybe
let's
start
back
with
the
basics,
a
Blog
about
the
basics,
it's
a
reflection
for
the
speech
or
the
kind
of
presentation.
C
We
did
an
amster
base
in
Amsterdam
a
place
for
people
to
start
trying
to
get
there
the
the
foundation
of
their
mental
models
set
up
and
how
Baseline
works,
the
kind
of
underlying
Concepts.
It's
still
so,
once
you've,
you
know
finish
reading
it.
You
should
be
kind
of
really
primed
for
digging
into
some
of
the
deeper
material
and
really
understanding
what
a
baseline
implementation
would
look
like
right
and
that's
ready
for
the
next
part
of
the
series
which
is
TBD
at
this
point
in
time
for
release
yeah
and
and
yeah.
A
You
thanks
thanks
Keith
and
the
other
announcement,
which
is
which
makes
this
week
special,
is
also
published
publication
of
our
roadmap
for
2023.
So
we
recently
also
published
our
Baseline
protocol
roadmap.
I
will
post
the
links
to
both
of
these
things
along
with
the
video,
so
that
people
can
get
access
to
it.
But
this
is
a
very
aspirational
year
for
us
as
a
as
a
group,
and
we
intend
to
achieve
a
lot
and
there's.
A
Of
course,
there
are
some
things
flowing
back
from
the
previous
year
as
well,
but
I'm
very
excited
very
pumped
up
for
for
the
year
ahead.
So
with
that
I
I
come
back
to
our
guest.
For
today
we're
going
to
be
learning
a
little
bit
about
optimistic
Roll-Ups.
How
optimistic
should
we
be
about
optimistic
roll
ups
and
and
yeah?
We
will.
We
will
also
learn
a
bit
more
about
cut
easy.
A
So,
let's
start
with
with
Gabriel
your
introduction,
your
background,
your
motivations
of
what
you're
doing
I
from
you
know
in
our
previous
call,
I
understand
that
you've
been
in
the
space
at
the
right
times
at
the
right
places
for
a
very
long
time
now.
So,
let's,
let's
hear
a
bit
about
you
and
then
we
move
on
to
Cartesian
and
then
to
the
topic
of
Optimus
yeah.
B
B
I
stayed
there
for
a
little
while
like
something
two
years
and
something
and
then
I
left
them
to
join
terminal,
and
we
are
trying
to
do
so.
Many
nice
stuff
pivots
here
people
is
there.
It
became
Fleek
at
that
time.
He
didn't
make
much
sense
anymore
for
me,
and
I
have
a
friend
from
College
from
college
that
was
working
at
a
small
company.
Doing
some
blockchain
stuff,
very
weird
things.
B
They
were
saying
something
about
proofing,
computation
and
I
was
like
what
the
hell
are
you
talking
about,
and
then
I
learned
a
little
bit
about
Cortez
on
Tokyo's,
Osaka's,
Devcon
and
then
a
few
months,
a
few
months
after
I
joined
the
company
like
very,
very
Strokes,
that
that
is
my
my
history
with
blockchain
and
yeah.
For
today,
I
I
would
like
us
to
have
a
conversation
about
our
lives.
B
Plasma
side
chains
competing
networks,
but
really
they
didn't
really
address
the
the
reality
of
things.
Basically,
they
were
postponing
and
giving
some
oxygen
to
the
industry
to
have
time
to
figure
it
out
and
I.
Think
like
roll
ups
is
really
it's
really
very
promising,
because
nobody
seems
to
have
figured
out
a
hundred
percent.
But
many
intelligent
people
do
agree
that
there
is
something
there
it's
worth
looking
into
it
and
still
like
try
to
figure
out
the
Nitty
Gritty
bits
of
details.
B
That
needs
to
be
sorted
in
order
to
to
make
it
100
decentralized
as
secure
as
possible
and,
of
course,
give
us
all
the
the
power
that
we
need
right
and
but
then
we
get
to
power,
because
at
the
end
of
the
day
we
are
trying
to
increase
DPS.
We
are
trying
to
increase
transaction
complexity
like
really
like
CPU
memory,
intensive
tasks
and
we
always
hit
the
the
limits
of
whatever
is
trying
to
expand.
The
ethereum
capacity
right,
like
I,
feel.
B
If
we
look
right
now
to
what
the
main
players
in
the
on
the
space,
they
are
trying
to
do,
roll
ups
for
ethereum
they,
they
kind
of
end
up
copying
ethereum
a
little
bit
and
I
feel
we
are
repeating
a
cycle
to
some
extent,
because
we
are
giving
some
more
oxygen
to
the
system.
But
we're
gonna
run
out
at
some
point.
B
While
we
do
then,
but
like
I,
was
saying
it's
an
open
question
for
everybody
and
when
it
comes
to
zero
knowledge,
there's
a
lot
of
great
stuff
coming
because
of
it
there's
another
a
lot
of
new
possibilities,
even
in
privacy,
really
because,
for
instance,
for
now
there
are
zero
knowledge.
Relapse
are
now
really
about
privacy,
but
zero
knowledge
itself.
B
People
come
up
with
because
right
now
it's
not
really
settled,
but
this
idea
of
having
a
relative
specific
for
an
application
and
try
to
figure
out
how
to
go
from
there
just
to
keep
the
same
level
of
communication
interactivity
between
the
applications
such
and
such
and
and
that's
when
maybe
we'll
get
to
a
point
that
we
don't
see.
This
problem
be
reproduced
again
and
again
and
again,
and
we
reached
to
a
point
that
now
we
can
just
know
that
the
scalability
is
really
on
the
depth
itself.
D
It's
like
it's
like
anybody
wants
to
look
at
that
altabeat.com
just
go
check
it
out.
It's
like
it's
like
arbitrim
is
like
that's.
Combined
right,
arbitrum
was
like
at
six
odd
TPS
yesterday,
compared
to
like
13
for
for
not
that
it
could,
if
arbitrary,
could
do
like
a
couple
of
thou
right
without
breaking
a
sweat,
but
there's
just
no
there's
just
no
activity
right,
there's
there's
no,
even
if
I
had
like.
D
So
even
if
I
had
10
crypto
kitties
like
on
Arboretum
right
now.
Working
at
the
same
time
is
still
not
a
problem
right.
It's
like
you
can
run
Gods
Unchained,
and
you
know
it's
like
it's
like
actually
infinity
and
and
like
that
on
the
same
roll
up,
and
you
would
still
not
break
a
sweat
okay.
So
it's
like
that
scalability
right
now
is
not
the
problem.
D
E
I
would
add
this,
though,
right,
because
you
know
this,
this
group
of
folks
here
thinks
a
lot
about
Enterprise
systems.
You
know
connecting
to
blockchain
right
and
what
is
that
that
scalability
picture
look
like
the
truth
is
there
are
Enterprise
systems
today
that
are
just
for
single
companies
that
actually
have
higher
TPS
than
entire
blockchains
right,
because
they're
they're
doing
supply
chain
things
iot
things
they're
getting
absolutely
hammered
right.
A
E
B
Yes,
yes,
I
wouldn't
say
is
the
main
focus,
but
it's
one
of
them.
Currently
we've
been
playing
with
applications
that
haven't
been
tested
in
blockchain,
yet
some
of
the
games
reported
one
of
our
friends
just
did
it
on
a
weekend
just
for
fun
like
again
Kim
courtesy
play
dung
and
he
ported
into
it,
and
it's
just
in
a
different
category
entirely
in
the
sense.
B
So
if
you're
thinking
about
simple
transactions,
things
that
are
in
the
simpler
category,
like
let's
say,
Bitcoin
transactions,
maybe
you
could
have
a
improved
version
of
a
roll-up
that
would
absolutely
hammer
and
smoke
Cortez
a
hundred
percent,
but
then
we're
also
focusing
on
content
scalability,
which
was
something
that
I
would
address
later.
But
since
we
are
there,
which
is
like,
we
have
Decades
of
knowledge
in
software,
development,
about
processes,
libraries,
Frameworks
operating
systems
and
whatnot,
and
we
simply
have
not
ported
it
to
blockchain.
B
Yet
like
yes,
blockchain
is
something
new
like
like
you
had
a
new
database,
really
yeah,
that's
technically
it,
but
then
it
does
not
integrate
right.
Now,
like
you
do
some
adapters,
you
bring
information
back
and
forth.
You
do
a
lot
of
translations,
but
it's
not
really
like.
You
can
implement
a
sap
system
entirely
inside
a
a
blockchain
like
you
can
integrate
those
for
sure.
Maybe
that's
even
the
better
approach.
Arguably,
but.
B
B
D
E
B
It
might
not
even
be
that
good,
but
I
the
performance,
but
here's
the
thing
it's
working.
You
could
get
started
with
that,
but
you
can't
it's
not
possible.
So
one
of
the
things
we
do
address
as
well
is
like,
instead
of
being
based
on
evgam
on
the
roll
up
side,
we
are
based
on
risk
5,
which
is
a
platform
processor.
You
can
have
a
operation
system,
it
can
run
any
language
and
that's
the
change
as
well
that
we
are
trying
to
bring
like
now.
B
You
can
do
things
like
image
recognition
using
opencv
inside
your
tab
was,
for
you
tell
me
that's
up
to
you
like
that's
a
new
possibility
for
your
dad
and,
and
you
can
use
game
engines
that
people
have
been
playing
with
for
so
long
there's.
So
just
so
many
possibilities.
It's
like
like
we're
introducing
computer
all
over
again
like
what
can
you
do
with
computer
in
internet
I?
Don't
know
it's
hard
for
the
people
to
figure
it
out.
Okay,.
D
But
why
do
I
need?
Why
do
I
need
this
anchored
on
on
on
on
on
chain?
It's
like
it's
like
it's,
like
literally
I
mean
it's
like
it's
like
I
know,
games
that
are
running
on
like
a
five
cluster
subnet
on
on
Avalanche
and
I'm,
like
so
you're
running
this
on
on
AWS
in
a
in
a
in
a
you're
running
this
actually
on
an
on
on
a
kubernetes
cluster.
So
it's
like.
Are
you?
Are
you?
Are
you
really
me
right
now?
It's
like
it
makes
why
it's
it.
That
is,
that
is
all
complete.
D
It's
like
it's
like.
If
you
need
a
chain
right,
you
have
a
double
spend
problem.
You
have
a
I,
can
I
can
I
I,
just
use
digital
digital
digital
signature,
right,
I,
use,
dids
and
and
and
I
I
can
generate
data
Integrity
right,
I,
don't
I,
don't
need
anything
else
right!
It's
like
it's
like
I
I,
just
I,
just
make
sure
that
I
I
I
have
I.
Can
I
can
check
that.
My
that
my
keys
are
are
I,
can
publicly
validate
that
my
keys
are
active.
D
A
D
D
If
I
have
a
double
spend
problem,
we're
back
to
the
two
two:
yes
you
need,
you
need
some
form
of
of
other
consensus
or
you
need
to
have
have
you
need
to
be
able
to
have
the
data
to
prove
or
prevent
double
double
spend
on
the
L1,
in
which
case
you
have
you
either
are
as
optimistic.
Rollups
do
you
need
you
have
a
you,
have
a
fraud,
you
have
fraud
proofs
or
as
CK
Roll-Ups.
D
Do
you
you
put
the
data
directly
on
Chain
by
by
using
by
using
ZK
raw
approves
yeah,
but
that
that's
so
it's
like
it's
like
those
are
very
specific
problems
focused
on
double
spend
and
double
spend
only,
and
then
we
have
the
reason
why
why
it's
important
to
for,
for
that
is
your
Roll-Ups.
Are
islands
right
they're
like
the
Greek
Islands
right
in
Greek
Islands
that
don't
have
good
Ferry
systems
between
them
really
suck?
You
know
why?
Because
no
one
goes
there
right
and.
A
D
A
D
So
so
you
need
like,
like
like
a
good
ferry
system,
AKA
Bridges
right,
but
the
bridges
are
for
assets
right.
I
can
move
data
back
and
forth.
That's
like
boom!
That's
not
that's!
Not!
Unless
I
I
have
to
prove
the
state
right
and
and
then
you
know
I
need
to
to
to
to
to
validate
that.
Oh
yeah.
What
you
did
over
there
is
that
was,
is
actually
provably
correct
right.
A
D
Right
so
it's
it's
so
again
specific
problems,
for
you
know
specific
solutions
for
very
specific
problems.
If
I
have
a
gaming
app
who
the
cares.
If
this
is
running
on
a
on
a
a
on
a
chain,
it
doesn't
matter.
It's
like
it's
like
run
it
on
on
a
fat,
eks,
buster
and
and
and
and
and
and
rock
you
know,
rock
rock.
It's
like
you
know
it's
like
they're,
not
what
like
like
fortnite
skins,
you,
trade,
fortnite,
didn't.
D
Okay,
then
I'm
back
to
my
to
my
double
Bend
problem,
because
I
have
I,
have
valuable
assets
and
then
I
have
illiquid
assets
that
I'm
that
I'm
that
I'm
trading
on
a
on
a
on
an
exchange.
That's
not
registered!
Okay!
That's
that's
in
that!
That's
it
that's
an
interesting
notion.
So
otherwise,
you
know
all
of
this
stuff
is,
is
like
entirely
meaningless
and
and
and
and
and
and
and
Rapid.
A
B
A
Henceforth,
you
know
maybe
for
my
thoughts
around
it,
because
what
you,
what
you
mentioned
also
sounds
very,
very
powerful
and
and
yeah
it's.
You
know.
The
good
thing
is
that
we
we
get
together.
We
brainstorm
on
these
shows
and
and
then
we
we
do
transport
things
which,
which
are
really
valuable
for
us
as
a
group
as
well
and-
and
you
know,
let's
see
so
so
so
yeah,
why
don't
you
introduce
khatiji
and
if
you
have
any
slides
also
you
can
present
I'm
enabled
sharing
it
before.
C
D
E
E
E
So
yeah,
but
but
like
to
bring
it
back
to
cartesia,
it's
like
if,
if
I'm
you
know
using
cartesia
I
put
the
token
in
look
at
like
an
arcade
game,
what
am
I
getting
out
like
what
like
what
like?
What's
the
what's
the
what's
the
what's
the
thing
that
is
most
succinctly:
that's
cartesians,
really
all
about
as
a
roll-up.
In
other
things,.
B
It's
very
boring
for
people
who
like
to
play
chess,
because
whenever
they
go
online
they
can
just
they
don't
they
never
know
if
they're
playing
against
a
real
person
or
if
it
is
just
a
person
playing
Also
the
table
with
a
bot
and
one
of
the
things
we
see
in
these
hackathons
that
we
participated.
Is
this
guy
came
up
with
this
idea
of
a
I
Bots
that
play
chess?
So
basically
you
submit
your
agent,
you
code,
it
you
say
how
it
should.
B
What
is
the
strategy
of
it,
and
now
you
can
bat
on
the
the
winning
or
losing
of
the
match
based
on
your
agent,
and
you
know
that
the
thing
is
fair,
because
you
you
have
the
verification
of
the
computation
happening
on
both
sides.
You
don't
have
the
to
dispute
that
and
and
another
game
that
Ryan
kind
of
like
made
me
remember,
is
dinner.
It's
kind
of
like
I
forgot,
the
name
of
the
game.
B
You
know
the
game
where
you
have
several
colors
and
you
need
to
shoot
a
color
to
make
a
straight
line
in
a
way
a
Candy,
Crush
yeah.
It's
it's.
It's
a
mix
and
match
of
Candy
Crush
with
a
battle
game,
so
it
feels
like
Pokemon
to
some
extent,
so
you
have
characters
on
your
screen
and
you
can
Power
It
Up
and
by
Smashing
the
the
candies
so
to
speak,
and
the
colors
match
to
the
players.
B
The
characters
I
mean
and
that
will
boost
or
decrease
the
level
of
your
attack,
and
that
goes
with
the
with
the
gameplay
right,
and
that
is
all
verified
as
well
in
in
the
Cortez's
optimistic
for
life.
I
know
it's
silly
because
we're
talking
games,
but
really
it
displays
a
little
bit
of
how
people
can
be
using
this
later
for
serious
stuff.
But
here's
the
thing
they
don't
take
too
much
time
cutting
everything
from
scratch.
Inventing
a
logarithmic
library,
because
it's
not
available
on
solidity.
Yet
to
make
things
work.
E
I
think
a
gaming
example
is
actually
it's
like
it's
it's
a
big
Focus
area
and
interest
area.
You
know
across
web
data
I
think
it
makes
sense
because,
yes,
independent
servers
on
AWS
may
be
cheaper
to
run,
and
you
can
run
a
bit
like
a
gaming
business
there,
but
for
the
players
that
get
invested
in
the
game.
You
can
be
really
sad
when
that
that
server
gets
shut
down,
someday
right.
A
E
If
you
have
these
games
that
are
architected
in
a
way
to
be
decentralized,
and
you
know
the
players
can
engage
with
it
anytime.
You
know
in
this
decentralized
system
like
just
put
the
quarter
in,
if
you
will
at
any
time
you
actually
have
much
more
longer
lasting
communities
that
that
are
in
place.
There
I
think,
that's
that
that's
the
the
undercurrent
I
think
that
actually
makes
web3
gaming
really
stick
around
long
term.
Is
that
the
the
it's
ownership
of
the
community?
And
it's
you
know
sustainable
long
term.
B
Yep
and
then
to
talk
about
like
more
meaningful
to
some
extent,
things
we're
seeing
in
East
San
Francisco,
a
pair
of
guys
on
the
hackathon.
They
use
capacity
to
solve
things
like
the
mango
hack,
so
the
mega
I
don't
like
calling
the
mega
hack
because
it
was
not
really
a
hack.
Basically,
they
just
pumped
the
price
of
a
token
collateralize
got
the
low
and
never
returned
the
the
funds,
of
course,
and
one
of
the
problems
with
that
is
because
they
did
have
the
did.
B
It
have
the
first,
the
computational
power
yes,
but
on
our
roll
up
they
could.
But
then
they
didn't,
have
the
expertise
or
didn't
build
up
their
algorithms
to
make
the
how
to
say
the
risk
assessment
of
assets
to
see
how
much
they
can
allow
for
the
risk
on
that
loan
right.
It's
very
something
very
basic
in
the
Web
2.0
world,
and
then
it's
a
trivial
thing
to
avoid.
B
Yet
it
happened
and
it
could
to
some
extent
happen
to
UNI
swap
as
well
and
other
Landing
protocols,
I
mean
and
here's
the
thing
this
pair
of
guys.
Basically,
they
imported
some
very
well
known,
open
source
library
to
do
this
kind
of
risk
assessments-
probably
not
even
the
best
one,
but
basically
they're
displayed
in
a
proof
of
concept
that
you
could
have
updates
to
a
Smart
contract
done
inside
ethereum.
Doing
your
risk
assessment
constantly
through
a
Roll-Ups
to
to
check
the
health,
the
healthy
of
the
the
asset.
D
Sure
I
mean
that
that
is
it
again
to
to
to
to
Outsource
heavy
compute
somewhere
right
is,
is,
and
then
import
and
the
results
is
is
is
great
right.
So,
if
now
now
let
me
let
me
play
the
decentralization
maximalist
right.
It's
like
there.
It's
like
okay,
prove
to
me
that
that
the
that
the
risk
assessment
was
not
manipulated.
D
B
D
D
It
but
but
that's
not,
but
but
that's
not
my
counter
argument
is
that's:
that's
not
yeah,
but
that's
then
I'm,
then
I
back
I'm
back
to
to
a
consensus,
algorithm
and
then,
as
soon
as
I
have
a
consensus
algorithm
that
I
need
to.
Then
you
know
now
I
dispute
or
trust
and
two
needs
to
come
to
consensus
and
say
a
third
one
comes
and
says
no,
it's
like
it's
like
and
then
the
fourth,
a
fifth
and.
D
So
so
I've
had
the
same
arguments
with
every
single
optimistic
roller
right.
The
argument
is
the
following:
you
are
creating
a
a
a
a
compute
power
arms
race
because
because,
if
the
the
more
heavy
compute
you
utilize,
as
as
an
as
inputs
into
your
into
your
transactions
by
Outsourcing
right,
the
more
you
are
you
are-
you
are
the
more
you're
forcing
a
challenger
to
run
this
to
have
the
same
compute
power.
That's
currently,
obviously
not
a
problem.
D
It's
obviously
currently
not
a
problem,
because
because
no
one
is
using
anything
right,
so
it's
like
it's
it's
easy,
but
if
you're,
if
you're,
actually
going
and
talking
or
now
we're
running
risk
risk
assessment,
now
we're
deriving
now
we're
deriving
forward
rates
for
for
for
markets
based
on
based
on
that.
Based
on
that
input,
then
it
becomes
becomes,
becomes
a
real
becomes,
a
real
challenge.
I.
B
You
I
don't
see
that
that
has
a
big
of
a
problem
as
you're
stating
it
to
because
you
know
you
have
odyss
transitions
of
your
machine
as
things
moves
along
and
that
actually
becomes
a
problem.
You
can
always
change
the
node
to
publicize
as
well
the
state
transitions
in
between.
So
let's
say
you
have
a
billion
cycle
of
CPU
there
you
can
put
every
10
000
every
million,
and
then
people
can
do
just
a
statistical
sampling
of
the
Transitions
and
get
you
on
the
hook
for
a
piece
of
the
computation.
B
D
B
That's
that's
that's
the
best
scenario
for
sure,
but
if
you're
having
something
that
big,
you
don't
need
to
necessarily
be
the
one
doing
the
100
of
the
process.
Every
person
can
be
checking
different
pieces
of
the
the
process
it's
in
a
way
similar
to
in
a
way
not
truly
not
exactly,
but
in
a
way
that's
similar
to
what
the
zero
knowledge
proof
does
you
don't
need
to
run
the
full
thing
to
be
able
to
check
whether
or
not
that
thing
is
correct.
B
B
B
It's
not
something
really
that
easy
to
falsify,
because
you
need
to
be
falsifying
a
very
strategic
way
to
give
hashes
to
do
in
between
that
makes
sense,
but
at
that
same
time
gets
you
to
the
exact
end
result
that
you
wish
for,
and
then
that
is
not
that
simple.
That
is
not
as
simple.
It
becomes
ever
more
complex
as
the
software
gets
complex
as
well.
D
So
the
the
reason
why
you
run
like
these,
you
know
it's
like
you're
right
darks
are
nothing
but
is,
is
basically
large
volume,
statistical
sampling
that
you're
that
you're
that
you're
that
you're
simulating
right.
Because
what
do
you
use?
You
use
a
a
you
use.
You
know
interactive
Oracle
proofs
right
that
you're,
just
like
you,
do
a
very
specific
transformation
for
and
then
you're
sampling
a
very
large
space
right,
the
the.
D
But
the
point
is:
unless
you
publish
the
the
point,
is
I,
can
you
can
you
can
verify
that
you
can
you
can
you
can
compress
all
of
that
and
you
can
verify
it
on
chain,
which
means
I,
don't
need
to
have
this
type
of
of
computational
capability
available.
This
can
be
again
decentralized,
I'm.
Putting
my
my
decentralization
maximalist
on
not
that
I
complete
that
I,
that
I
would
but
here's.
B
D
That's
it
end
of
story,
so
it's
like
it's
like
and
and
then
they
they
typically
don't
have
like
scenarios
where
they
need
to
do
like
billions
of
transactions
a
day
right.
They
may
have
a
few
hundreds
of
thousands,
maybe
a
million
transactions
with
their
Partners
in
the
largest
in
the
largest
cases.
So.
B
B
Is
like
okay,
you
get
you
get
to
be
able
to
for,
of
course,
do
something
simple
as
a
risk
analysis
written
in
any
language
that
you
want
as
long
as
it's
you're
able
to
call
to
do
programs
like
what
we're
doing
smart
contracts
and
whatnot,
you
can
do
that.
Yes,
but
then
the
cost
of
doing
that
is
gonna
be
much
more
expensive.
Of
course,
if
that
the
problem
is
important
enough,
then
you
pay
the
costs,
but
then
it
becomes
it's
a
constant
that
you
have
to
initiate
any
project
at
all
times.
B
You
have
this
friction
because
we
already
have
all
this
knowledge
when
we
are
not
using
it,
as
is.
We
are
always
re-implementing
things
sporting
things
over
and
over
and
over
again
at
some
point,
if
the
cost
of
having
zero
knowledge
in
the
world
is
that
good
to
pay
for
maybe
in
50
years
we
don't
even
talking
about.
We
are
not
gonna,
be
talking
about
that,
because
we
can
have
Intel
chips,
zero
knowledge
and
we
can
run
even
operation
systems,
but
that's
not
a
reality
of
today
and,
of
course,
for
big
Enterprises.
B
D
I
completely
I
completely
hear
you
now,
here's
here's
the
other
other
interesting
bit
right
and
that's
again,
where
you're
coming
to
to
digital
assets
right
as
soon
as
you
touch
a
dis,
digital
assets,
right,
it's
like
it's
like
they
they
right
now.
You
have
you'll,
have
a
regulatory
enforcement
actions
coming
down
or
being
actively
threatened,
which
means
it's,
like
you,
don't
make
sure
you're
all
fact
compliant
like
you're
looking
at
time
at
Rikers
right.
So
it's
like
we're
at
that
point.
No!
We're
at
that
point.
D
Or
you
know
it's
like,
but
you
needs
are
not
stuff
for
that,
and
and
and
it's
it's
it's
it's
possible,
but
it
we
need
to
actively
push
the
that
that
envelope,
because
there
are
legitimate
use
cases
where
people
want
to
maintain
their
privacy
while
at
the
same
time
being
compliant
and
we
we
want
to
get
rid
of
of
as
many
intermediary
as
we
as
we
can.
So
we
don't
have
to
have
to
have
people
hold
the
bag
for
us
right
and-
and
you
know
Enterprises
there
too
is
like
I.
D
D
E
They
can
acquire
any
kind
of
Enterprise
They
Enterprise
architecture
they
want
they
they
want,
like
the
prvd
stack,
they
can
run
that
get
commercial
support,
awesome
right
and
we
also
open
source
that
so
the
smaller
folks
can
run
on
the
on
their
own.
But
you
know
from
the
Cartesian
perspective
like
what
like
how?
What
are
your
thoughts
around
you
know
these?
You
know
smaller
entities.
You
know
that
you
know
that
a
lot
of
work
with
you
know
decentralized
Tech,
in
coordination
to
to
larger
entities
like
are
there
use
cases
or
or
perspectives?
E
B
I
personally
haven't
heard
about
anything
related
to
that,
like
any
attempts
to
be
doing
that
I
guess
we
are
too
in
a
too
early
of
stage
to
to
have
this
kind
of
questions
being
flowing
around
so
I.
Don't
know
really
I
don't
know,
but
if
I,
if
I
think
about
how
qatars
have
been
doing
things
in
the
past
I
guess,
we
will
always
try
to
to
to
anticipate
the
necessities
of
those
trying
to
use
the
technology
to
to
somehow
try
to
ease
the
impact
on
them.
If
possible.
A
Question
but
be
really
your
your
views.
Your
views
in
general
are
much
much
appreciated.
I
think
I,
think
you
you.
You
have
a
lot
of
clarity
on
on
these
things,
which
I
really
appreciate.
There's
one
question
which
came
for
the
group
and
I'm
going
to
read
that
out
from
the
chat
which
is
from
Paulo
ZK
roll
ups
also
need
computing
power
to
generate
GK
proofs
every
single
time
in
optimistic
problems.
A
A
Okay-
and
you
know,
I
just
realized
that
we
are
50
minutes
in
to
the
show
and
I
absolutely
didn't
realize
where
the
time
flew.
Thank
you
so
much
Gabriel
you're
you're.
This
chat
has
been
so
engaging
and
but
but
you
know,
where
do
we
go
to
learn
more
about
katisi
and-
and
you
know,
how
do
we,
how
do
we
get
engaged
yeah.
B
I
mean
yeah
yeah
I
mean
you
can
definitely
go
to
the
Cartesian
website
and
check
the
docs
and
pretty
soon
we
are
gonna,
be
releasing
as
well
a
new
tab
inside
the
site
of
showcases.
We
are
getting
all
these
hackathon
projects,
other
company
Partners
that
have
been
doing
things
with
Cortez,
so
people
can
have
a
sense
of
what
is
being
developed
being
developed
inside
the
katazi
architecture
yeah.
So.
A
Sure,
and-
and
you
know,
as
you
may
have
guessed,
that
Baseline
is
more
focused
on
digital
supply
chain,
more
of
corporate
stuff
right
we
try
and
we
are
trying
and
and
bringing
in
multi-parties,
which
are
largely
corporates
right.
So
why
should?
Why
should
why?
Would
you
think
that
people
should
care
about
that
easy?
What
you
haven't
have
for
them
for
the
for
the
large
businesses.
A
B
B
D
B
D
B
We
did
have
one
project
that
was
doing
a
programmatic
nfts.
So
that's
a
funny
thing,
because
right
now,
nfts
are
jpegs
and
pngs
stored
elsewhere
and
you
just
have
hash
for
it
right.
But
these
guys
they're
they're
like
okay,
but
we
want
to
have
the
proof
that
the
nft
is
just
exactly
this
and
if
you
lose
the
PNG
or
whatever
you
can
just
go
back
in
time
and
reproduce
the
transaction
again
and
you
get
the
same
nft
all
over.
A
D
I
think
what
would
be
interesting
is
to
have
to
have
so
so
we
had
with
tree
trunk.
We
had
we
have
we
we
had.
We
had
made
nfts
into
web
pages
with
then
I
mean
we
had
zero
knowledge
proofs
for
for
authenticity
so
and
and
run
and
run
this
on
on
on
ipfs
or
you
know
using
ipns.
So
the
interesting
thing
was
the
big
challenge
was
to
to
have
rendering
of
to
have
like
to
have
like
movies
videos
like
that
are
that
are
basically
in
injected
into
into
into
the
page
right.
D
That's
worked,
I
think
cartesia
could
could
actually
shine
for
for
for
that,
because
now
you
can
prove
that
all
this
all
this
stuff
is
actually
properly
properly
updated
and
the
quote-unquote
GIF
or
the
the
the
degenerative
art
is
is
is
is
is
actually
correct.
So
it's
like
because
we
had
someone
with
an
artist
who
wanted
to
go.
Oh
I
want
this
to
be
in
the
morning.
It
should
look.
You
know
like
morning
and
then
the
evening.
A
D
Should
look
like
in
the
evening
and
I
was
like
okay,
then
we
need
like
a
five
gigabyte.
You
know
I'm,
like
oh,
my
God,
so
with
cartesia.
That
would
be
a
a
actually
entirely
doable.
So
with
a
with
a
with,
with
with
you
know,
verifiable
authenticity
of
the
generative
art
so
that
I
can
I
can
totally
totally
see.
A
A
Absolutely
interesting
interesting-
and
this
is
very
interesting-
everyone
you
know
do
do
share
more
material
if
there's
something
which
we
can
share
with
our
community.
You
know
happy
to
do
that
as
well
and
do
join
Baseline
slack
as
well.
If
you
have
the
time
and
explore
what
we're
doing
so
so
yeah,
if,
if
there
are
no
more
questions,
I
I
guess
we're
towards
the
end
of
today's
show.
A
A
So
yeah,
interesting
and
India.
Thank
you.
Thank
you,
Gabriel,
for
what
you're
doing
with
the
open
source
communities
as
well
and-
and
you
know
that
easy
joined
EA
as
well
and-
and
you
guys
have
you
know,
started
doing
things
there
as
well,
so
so
kudos
to
all
the
work,
and
we
hope
to
get
you
back
here
sometime.
Maybe
we
Deep
dive
a
little
more
on
some
of
the
use
cases
where
Baseline
could
come
together
and,
and
you
know
vice
versa,
so
so
yeah.
A
That
brings
us
to
the
end
of
today's
show.
Thank
you
all,
for
the
very
you
know
the
amazing
thoughts
and
and
the
Very
engaging
discussion
see
you
next
week
with
another
hot
air
topic,
which
is
gtna
I,
hope
to
hope
to
get
there
very
very
soon
and
and
yeah
do
you
know,
do
subscribe
to
to
our
Channel
and
follow
us
on
Twitter
as
well.