►
Description
The weekly office hours for the Baseline Protocol open source community, Wednesdays at noon in the US-Eastern timezone. And don't miss the show on Saturdays at 6pm in the Indian (IST) timezone. Learn more at https://baseline-protocol.org.
Date: February 23, 2022
Guest Speakers: Nick Kritikos (End Labs) & Anton Mozgovoy (Mover)
Theme: DeFi
A
A
Hey
everybody:
it's
john
wolpert
here
with
the
baseline,
show
back
from
a
week
in
east
denver.
I
heard
that
last
week
was
super
good
on
the
baseline
show,
so
proving
my
theory
that
that
all
things
are
better
when
I'm
not
in
the
room,
and
it
was,
but
we
had
a
great
time
in
east
denver,
we'll
talk
all
about
that,
but
right
now
we're
gonna
we're
gonna,
have
sonal,
take
over
and
introduce
nick
kritikos
and
anton
moscavoy.
For
our
feature
conversation,
it's
good
to
see
everybody.
A
D
Thank
you
sonol.
It's
it's
a
pleasure
being
here
a
little
bit
about
myself,
so
I'm
a
co-founder
of
the
protocol
and
the
thing
called
mover.
Our
mission
is
very,
very
simple.
We
want
to
make
sure
that
we
make
defy
as
easy
and
as
simple
as
possible
for
for
everyone,
and
that
means
that
we
are
open
to
build
and
building
any
tools
that
will
help
us
in
that
mission.
D
In
fact,
what
it
means
is
that
we
we
bridge
defy
services
like
savings
like
swaps,
like
lending,
for
instance,
to
traditional
finance
tools,
for
instance
like
debit
card,
and-
and
I
think
this
is
we're-
obviously
going
to
talk
about
in
the
future,
but
this
is
where
it
becomes
very,
very
interesting
in
terms
of
how
baseline
cut
initially
in
our
radars
and
how
it
helps
us
in
our
mission
of
trying
and
stay
as
permissionless
and
as
non-custodial
as
possible.
So
we'll
talk
about
that
in
future.
B
Thanks
sonal
nick
kritikos,
I
am
chief
commercial
officer
of
end
labs,
a
technology
and
product
company
building
in
the
d5
space
prior
to
joining
n
labs.
I
was
at
consensus
with
john
and
everybody
else
at
consensus
for
about
four
and
a
half
years
where
we
launched
the
baseline
protocol
and
through
those
that
work
kind
of
helped
me
identify
the
space
and
the
project
that
I'm
working
in
now.
C
B
I'll
take
a
stab
first
of
all.
The
d5
space
is
very,
very
broad
and
my
ability
to
keep
my
arms
around
it
is
very,
very
limited.
So
a
lot
of
my
perspective
is
very
narrowly
defined.
Around
bringing
real
world
assets
to
d5,
helping
institutions
and
large
asset
originators
bring.
You
know:
real-world
assets,
mortgages,
commercial
paper,
invoices
things
like
that
to
defy
allowing
d5
sources
of
capital
to
diversify
their
portfolios
and
their
collateral
into
perhaps
non-crypto
correlated
assets.
D
I
I
agree,
I
agree
so
in
in
general,
there's
four
major
domains
in
terms
of
where
d5
is
going,
so
one
is
basically
swaps,
so
that
allows
you
to
exchange
one
asset
to
another
asset
permissionlessly,
so
without
without
any
custodial
middlemen.
The
second
one
is
derivatives,
so
if
those
of
you
guys
or
sort
of
not
financially,
I
would
say
you
know,
focus
or
narrow
down.
Basically,
a
derivative,
if
is,
is
anything
that
you
derive
from
from
like
a
physical
asset.
D
So,
for
example,
gold,
I
don't
know
precious
metals,
it
could
be
even
real
estate.
So
obviously,
if
you
want
to
try
or
do
anything
with
those
assets,
you
can
you
can
derive
from
that
asset
and
then
make
derivatives
so
that
you
can
basically
you
can
sell,
you
can
buy
so
those
kind
of
things.
The
third
aspect
is
lending,
which
is
a
huge
deal
in
our
everyday
lives.
We
will
have
you
know
credit
cards
we'll
have
mortgages,
we'll
have
business
loans,
so
that
also
gives
you.
D
You
know
a
very
huge
aspect
and
the
third
one
I
would
say
this
is
where
the
experimental
zone,
so
to
summarize
d5.
It
was
initially
all
about
rebuilding
existing
financial
primitives
in
a
non-custodial
way
and
now
there's
a
lot
of
going
on
and
a
lot
of
happening
to
try
and
create
new
financial
primitives.
D
But
of
course
I
would
say
you
know,
I
would
also
call
for
the
fifth
aspect,
which
is
something
to
do
with
now
major
organizations.
So
we
were
talking
about
individuals,
but
now
this
is
where
we
talk
about
major
organizations,
and
it
involves
all
those
four
previous
aspects,
but
also
the
new
fifth
one,
because
their
needs
their
business
needs.
You
know
they're
different.
D
Oh,
absolutely,
absolutely
I
think,
there's
what's
what's
interesting.
Is
you
know
speaking
about,
for
instance,
you
know
baseline
the
the
api
suite
that
you
know
this
exists
and
is
building
the
use
cases.
I
would
say
you
know
the
sky
is
the
limit
and
obviously
we'll
talk
about
it
more
in
the
future.
In
terms
of
where
is
that
scope,
I
think
sono
will
agree
that
you
know.
A
lot
of
questions
about
you
know
on
twitter
is
like
okay.
Well,
what
are
the
use
cases?
D
What
are
the
real
world
use
cases,
and-
and
I
think
I
want
to
emphasize
here-
is
that
every
use
case
that
we're
gonna
talk
about
that.
That
sort
of
what
we
are
you
know
doing
behind
the
scenes
is
real
world,
because
everything
about
d5
is
about,
I
would
say
somehow,
directly
indirectly
links
to
the
money
and
then
obviously
so
it's
sort
of,
like
you
know,
a
real
world
use
case.
D
Movers
position
is
very
very
interesting
because
our
mission
is
to
remain
focused
on
permissionless
and
non-custodial
tools,
so
that
you
know
everything
from
wallets
to
how
we
interact
with
non-custodial
wallets,
and
I
think
the
recent
news,
especially
you,
know,
political
news.
They
help
us
a
lot
in
the
narrative.
In
terms
of
you
know,
privacy
and
an
ability
to
self-custody
things
is
extremely
important,
and
then,
when
we
talk
about
you
know
privacy,
that's
a
huge
huge
deal
when
it
comes
to,
for
instance,
us
dealing,
you
know
with
baseline.
D
So
in
terms
of
our
stand,
you
know
we're
somewhere
in
that
middle,
defending
the
ground
on
okay.
How
do
we
let
the
businesses
and
our
financial
partners
sort
of
interact
and
tap
the
waters
into
the
d5,
which
sounds
very
scary?
You
know
very
you
know
complicated.
You
know
very
weird,
but
at
the
same
time
we
have
you
know
we
have
defy
users,
which
you
know
swim
and
flow
natively
into
everything,
that's
happening.
Everything
is
going
on
and
it's
sort
of
like
how
do
we
connect
them
to
the
existing?
D
You
know
products
and
assets
that
you
know
I
would
say,
companies.
Financial
companies
are
offering
so
that
sweet
middle
spot
is
very,
very
interesting
because
we
get
to
see
sort
of
who
you
know
all
the
needs,
all
the
requirements
and
like
on
both
sides.
And,
of
course,
as
you
mentioned,
the
very
beginning,
you
don't
regulate
it
and
you
know
permission
it's.
D
It's
also
very
interesting
sort
of
topic
for
the
discussion
sort
of
like
how
to
make
it
happen
with
like
real
world
realities,
right
that
some
things
are
regulated
and
have
to
be
regulated,
and
then
other
things
are
not
yet
regulated.
Sort
of
like
how
do
you?
How
do
you
mix
and
match?
Is
it
even
possible.
B
B
B
E
E
B
B
You
know
once
they
build
their
networks
and
they
start
to
use
them.
Those
networks
become
incumbent,
and
you
know,
costs
go
up
and
things
like
that
right.
So
what
we're
doing
is
we're
bringing
those
players
into
the
ecosystem,
helping
them
understand
how
the
d5
tools
can
make
those
processes
more
efficient
and
then
leading
them
to
decentralization.
B
B
So
at
some
point
in
the
future,
an
individual
perhaps
could
bring
the
title
for
their
home,
bring
it
to
n
labs
or
or
whatever
the
company
the
product
is
called
and
effectively
use
the
title
of
their
home
to
create
a
line
of
credit
that
pulls
d5
funds
when
they
need
it
right.
You
know
you
look
at
a
lot
of
these
large
d5
companies
like
ave
and
maker
and
others
that
have
great
businesses
but
they're
all
in
crypto
and
that's
awesome.
B
I
love
crypto,
I'm
a
huge
blockchain
crypto
fan,
but
the
volatility
of
crypto
makes
it
very
hard
for
them
to
maintain
things
like
pegs
and
yields,
and
things
of
that
nature,
so
they're
looking
to
diversify
their
collateral
base
into
non-correlated
assets,
preferably
short
term
today,
right,
60,
90
days,
that
kind
of
thing,
but
over
time,
as
you
know,
we
understand
how
to
service
these
kinds
of
loans.
What
happens
when
a
loan
goes
bad?
How?
How
can
we,
you
know,
collect
on
it
or
deal
with
delinquencies?
A
A
A
Give
them
lower
cost
of
capital
on
that
side,
that's
right,
but
you
also
took
it
to
the
other
side,
which
is
you
know
the
more
of
the
trivago
thing
where
you
know
when
lenders
compete,
you
know
yeah,
and
so
that's
is
there.
I
don't
suppose,
there's
any
baselining
on
the
on
that
side
of
the
business
is
there
or
will
there
be
or
is
there
so.
B
A
A
B
A
B
D
Always
always
we're
we're
always
looking
for
great
folks,
we're
always
looking
to
you
know
to
get
better
and
that's
just
impossible
without
you
know,
without
the
right
people.
So
so
absolutely
so,
if
you're
listening
to
this,
if
you're
watching
this
yeah,
if
you're
interested
in
what
we're
doing
please
feel
free
to
to
reach
out
just
wanted
to
give,
maybe
like
a
little
comment
and
charles
to
what
you
said,
I
think
would
be
really
nice
to
set
up.
You
know
for
the
for
the
rest
of
the
conversation.
D
What
was
that,
what's
the
difference
between
d5
and
cd5,
so
defy
why
it's
called
decentralized
finance
is
because
it's
basically
a
bunch
of
smart
contracts,
so
a
smart
contract
has
a
set
of
predefined
rules.
It
does
what
it's
supposed
to
do,
so
it
only
does
what's
written
in
the
code
and
basically,
what
it
means
is
that
if
you're
attack
savvy
enough,
you
can
interact
directly
with
the
smart
contract
or
you
could
interact
through
an
interface,
so
basically
a
website
an
app
that
does
it
for
you
in
an
easy
way.
D
So
the
custodian
of
your
funds
and
then
the
d5
part
comes
there
is
that
well,
they
do
manage
your
funds,
so
your
assets,
but
they
deploy
those
assets
in
d5
protocols.
So
to
give
you
an
analogy,
is
you
know,
d5
is
sort
of
like
do
it
yourself,
kind
of
stuff
and
cd5.
Is
you
give
the
money
to
someone
you
trust
and
let
them
play
in
in
the
d5
world?
D
So
I
think
that's
that's
like
a
big
major
difference
and
if
we
summarize
it
in
one
term,
is
d5,
you
are
responsible
for
your
own
keys.
So
basically,
if
you
screw
it
up,
it's
only
your
fault.
If
in
the
citify
it
you
know
if,
if
they
screw
up
well
it
it's
sort
of
like
it's,
not
your
keys,
so
it's
both.
You
know
good
and
bad.
D
And,
and-
and
it
comes
the
question
about
again-
regulation,
for
instance-
that's
right-
and
I
think
it
also
comes
very
interesting
to
our
like
first
use
case,
the
one
that
we're
working
on
right
now.
So
it's
not
everybody
knows
that.
Let's
say
a
space
like
debit
cards.
Is
it's
a
regulated
product?
No
matter
where
you
live
in
the
world?
No
matter
what
bank
issues
your
debit
card,
it's
regular
product.
There
are
two
main
card,
I
would
say,
networks
which
is
visa.
D
Mastercard,
amex,
is
you
know,
union
pace,
we're
not
talking
about
those,
and
what
it
means
is
that
whoever
wants
to
open
a
business
of
providing
debit
cards
to
consumers,
the
it's
a
regulated
process,
so
you
have
to
you,
have
to
have
a
financial
license.
It
depends
on
the
country
and
the
regions
where
you
want
to
do
it,
etc,
etc.
But
it's
you
know
fair
and
square.
It's
regulated
now.
D
The
way
mover
operates
is
very,
very
interesting
because
we
we
try-
and
this
is
the
pretty
much
the
first
use
case
in
the
world
where
there's
a
regulated
card
issuer.
So
that's
a
regulated
entity
that
has
a
financial
license
to
issue
data
cards
and
then
there's
mover
protocol,
which
knows
nothing
about
you,
so
it's
permissionless.
D
So
the
question
is:
how
does
mover
offer
services
in
a
d5
way
but
also
has
a
connection
to
the
debit
card
so
that
you
can
order
that
you
can
have?
And
then
you
can
top
up.
You
know
through
mover-
and
this
becomes
a
very,
very
interesting
space
because
I'll
talk
about
compliancy.
So,
for
instance,
again,
if
you
want
to
order
a
debit
card,
you
have
to
pass
kyc
so
know
your
customer
rules.
You
have
to
pass
aml
criteria
and
the
custodian
of
your
funds,
so
regulated
company
is
always
has
always
to
comply
with.
D
D
Right
right
and
then
what's
interesting
pro,
that's
probably
the
very
first
time
in
you
know
in
history
that
on
chain
stuff,
so
again
defy
it
all
happens
on
chain.
So
everything
that
you
do
in
dfi
is
forever
stored
and
recorded.
It
depends
on
what
network
you
use,
etc,
but
it
doesn't
matter
what
network
it's
still
recorded.
So
it
actually
helps
us
in
terms
of
the
compliancy,
because
if
you
think
everything
that
you
do
through
mover
is
forever
stored
and
recorded
on
the
blockchain.
D
So
whoever
says
you
know,
money
laundering
through
blockchain
is
easy.
It's
actually
pretty
terrible,
and
all
the
recent
news
tell
us
that
it's
right.
So
it's
exactly
that,
but
here's
here's
an
interesting
part
mover
protocol
allows
you
to
let's
say
natively
top
up
your
debit
card
issued.
You
know
with
help
of
mover
any
any
your
c20
token,
so,
for
instance,
it
could
be.
You
know
the
ubt.
It
could
be
if
it
could
be
used
to
see.
You
know,
imagine
any
like
pretty
much
any
year.
D
C20
token
and
the
way
it
happens
is
mover
has
to
somehow
know
you
know.
Basically,
what
are
you
you
know
what
user
you
are
so
who
you
are
and
then
somehow
connect
you
to
your
debit
card,
but
still
know
nothing
about
you,
so
how
is
it
even
possible?
So
how
can
we
know
nothing
about
you?
How
can
we
not
store
anything?
You
know
any
information
about
you
because,
for
instance
by
you,
know
different
european
laws,
even
storing
the
name
and
email.
Well,
it's
already
considered
as
personal
data.
D
So
that's
already
the
gdpr
rules
that
apply
just
to
storing
that
data
itself.
We're
not
even
talking
about
financial
regulations,
and
here
comes,
if
so,
those
you
guys
watching
this
there's
a
thing.
That's
called
provide
baseline.
So
it's
like
an
api
suite
of
things
and
it
has
an
amazing
different
services.
D
So
the
use
case
for
us,
the
very
first
use
case
that
came
to
online,
which
is
you
know,
beautiful,
is
well
look.
The
only
way
that
mover
could
connect
you
to
your
debit
card
is
when
you
connect
your
wallet
and
you
access.
Your
basically
like
account
is
to
basically
store
somehow
store
a
hash
or
any
signature.
So,
basically,
where
you
verify
that
okay
well,
this
is
my
account,
and
this
is
my
wallet
I'm
currently
using.
D
So
if
you,
if
you
combine
that
information,
if
you
somehow
store
a
gibberish
variation
of
it,
so
basically
you
know
like
some
some
sort
of
hash
and
you
store
it
like
in
in
a
I
would
say
in
an
interesting
way,
so
we're
going
to
get
right
to
the
different
services
that
provide
baseline
offers
there
and
if,
if
we
can
access
that
hash,
that
will
prove
that
okay,
well,
you
are
the
owner
of
this
address
because
you
can
sign
this
information.
We
can
verify
the
signature,
but
we
can
still
basically
store
nothing.
D
So
when
it
comes
to
the
you
know
the
custody
of
the
funds,
you
have
to
understand,
for
instance,
every
anything
to
do
with
fiat
currency,
pretty
much
anywhere
in
the
world
is
again
is
regulated.
So
if
you
have
a
euro
there
always
is
a
custodian
you.
You
cannot
sell
custody
or
euro
unless
it's
cash.
So
that's
the
only
you
know,
self-custody
auction
right,
but
if
it's
on
your
debit
card,
there's
always
a
custodian
but
up
until
that
your
money
on
your
non-custodial
wallet
only
belongs
to
you.
D
So
again,
you
are
that's
why
it's
called
self-custody.
So
our
very
first
use
case
there
is
basically
using
two
things.
So
one
is,
you
know,
called
volt
and
the
second
wall
second
called
privacy.
So
the
idea
is
very
simple:
we
let
the
user
again
connect
their
like
non-custodial
wallet,
let's
say
metamask
or
anything
else
you
could
imagine.
We
also
have
a
non-custodial
wallet
there
and
you
can
prove
that
you
own,
so
you
are
the
owner
of
that
wallet.
D
So
you
can
sign
a
message
that,
combined
with
your
you
know,
debit
card
account
information.
Now
that
signature
is
then
stored
securely.
You
know
through
basically
provide
baseline
and
then
next
time,
when
you
try
to
access
and
you
try
to
interact
with
the
funds
from
your
back.
You
know
from
your
well
basically
from
your
debit
card.
Either
direction.
Yes,
you
can,
you
can
pretty
much.
D
You
know
invoke
like
a
very
simple,
like
you
know,
click
of
a
button
on
the
interface
but
what's
actually
happening
underneath
is
that
mover
has
to
verify
okay
well.
First
of
all,
we
try
to
identify
you,
which
is
basically
does
the
signature
match,
and
you
know
what
what
does
it
match
to
right?
So,
what
kind
of
a
user
you
are?
Who
who
you
are
and
by
accessing
that
information?
That
already
allows
us
to
solve
a
very,
very
unique
problem
that
we
basically
created
ourselves,
but
it.
D
On
this
interesting
path
of
sort
of
decision,
have
your
debit
couldn't
image
and
you
know,
do
everything
on
chain
and
still
be
able
to
interact
with
your
debit
card
without
the
mover
actually
knowing
or
storing
any
information
about
you.
So
this
is.
This
is
pretty
unique
and
you
know
for
people
asking
what
about
the
real
world
use
cases?
Well,
that's
that's
one
of
it.
So
this
is.
This
is
the
first
of
its
kind.
I
would
say.
D
Deeper
into
okay:
well:
what
about
on
change
swaps?
And
then
you
know:
how
can
you
offer
that
kind
of
stuff,
etc,
etc?
It
all
becomes
to
that.
You
know
this
approach
to
basically
knowing
zero
things
about
the
customers
again
in
the
current
like
legal
framework,
it
provides
a
lot
of
upsides
because
all
of
a
sudden
you
can
play
in
d5,
you
can
have
whatever
tokens
you
could
imagine
you
could
own
and
then
you
know
sort
of
swap
it.
D
You
know
top
up
your
debit
card
and
it's
very
easy
for
the
consumers.
Basically,
like
two
clicks:
okay,
I
have
this-
I
don't
know
kitten
caddy
token,
and
you
know
if
it's
liquid
anywhere
on.
You
know
decentralized
exchanges,
all
of
a
sudden
can
become
you
know
you
or
in
your
cart
and
when
it
comes
to
again
settling
funds
to
fiat,
it's
it's
a
pretty
again
complicated,
regulate
process
and
there's
no
settler
in
the
world
that
would
allow
you
to
settle
your.
D
You
know
directly,
like
your
kitten
kind
of
token
right
and
that's
that's
the
reason
why?
Because
you
know
it's
it's
a
liquid,
there
should
be.
I
don't
know
matchmakers,
there
could
be,
you
know,
different
exchanges
that
should
support
it
et
cetera.
It's
it's
a
complicated
process,
but
this
bridge
of
you
know
knowing
nothing
but
having
access
to
basically
like
aggregated
defile
liquidity.
D
All
of
a
sudden,
you
could
do
it
and
it's
easy,
and
you
know
it's
simple
for
the
consumers.
So
that's
that's
just
one
side,
so
I
was
just
talking
about
the,
as
I
said,
we're
in
the
middle
right
between
the
users
and
also
you
know
the
enterprises
out
there,
and
this
is
just
one
side
that
makes
it
easy
for
the
users.
So
there's
there's
also
a
bit
more
on
the
enterprises
side
of
things,
but
yeah.
A
And
so
I
got
another
question:
what's
been
on
my
mind,
a
lot
lately
with
with
baselining
is
sort
of
the
message
bus
attribute
of
it
right.
You
know
we
haven't
talked
about
that
a
long
time
we
used
to
talk
about
the
magic
bus
all
the
time
and
we
got
really
heavily
involved
with
zero
knowledge.
I
think.
A
Yeah,
but
there
there
is,
there's
the
the
attribute
that
really
excites
me.
I
think
a
lot
is
the
zero
knowledge
combined
with
the
event
management.
That
is
the
the
the
this
before
that
machine
being
able
to
say,
hey
and
I'd
like
to
see
this
in
more
ccsms
as
a
you
know,
you
have
keith
mark
and
some
others
love
to
see.
Not
only
being
able
to
you
know
say:
hey
yeah,
I
need
to
prove
this
value
is
higher
than
this
thing.
A
A
I
love
those
ideas,
but
I
also
like
the
idea
of
saying
okay,
these
three
banks,
or
these
three
lenders-
this
lender
should
only
do
what
they're
supposed
to
do
after
these
other
two
can
confirm
that
they
have
the
same
information
and
some
attribute
information,
or
that
they've
done
the
right
thing
and
what
I'd
like
to
be
able
to
do
is
say
these.
These
lenders
are
going
to
drop
a
pr
third
letter
number
three
watch
on
this
ccsm,
this
blockchain,
this
l2.
A
What
have
you
and
when
you
see
a
value
pop
up
in
this
location,
run
the
validator?
If
it's
valid,
do
your
thing,
knowing
that
the
other
two
things
have
happened
beforehand,
and
you
can
you
know
so
it's
the,
I
always
say
the
blockchain
really
at
the
end
of
the
day
for
for
it,
and
certainly
corporate
id
is
not
the
the
world
computer.
D
Well,
it's,
but
you
know
that
fanciness
it
brings.
I
would
say
it
eliminates
a
lot
of
headache.
I
you
know
I
keep
saying
this
when,
when
like
before,
before
baseline,
basically
anything
any
crazy
idea
that
would
come.
To
my
mind,
our
you
know,
compliancy
sort
of
people
that
would
that
would
hate
me
every
time
I
would
you
know,
write
down
the
message
saying:
okay,
guys,
I
have
an
idea,
they'll
be
like
no!
No,
no,
please!
No!
Okay!
D
We
don't
want
to
know
what
it
is,
but
most
likely
it's
going
to
be
a
no,
but
in
in
the
current
world
of
again,
like
regulator,
framework,
zero
knowledge
allows
us
to
again,
I
would
say
legally
bypass
some
restrictions
or
some
licenses.
Just
because
we
do
not
we
can
guarantee.
We
can
prove
to
the
regulator
that
we
do
not
know
specific
information.
So
I'll
give
an
idea
one
of
one
of
our
partners.
That
is
a
custodian
of
the
funds.
D
So
it's
basically
the
service
that
holds
the
fiat
money
on
on
the
behalf
of
their
users
for
for
the
cards,
so
they
have
a
lot
of
idle
assets
and
they
want
to
offer
basically
defy
savings
to
their
consumers.
But
here
comes
the
technical
question
in
part.
Now
those
users
do
not
have
their
keys
from
you
know
from
from
the
wallets
and
obviously
they
will
not
deploy
the
funds
themselves
to
you
know
any
defy
savings
right
and
the
only
way
they
could
do
it
is
again
is
through
something
like.
D
Let's
say
what
we
are
building
there
and
it
comes
the
technical
question:
how
do
we
connect
this
custodial
service
that
holds
the
keys
for
all
of
basically
for
all
of
their
consumers?
So
they
have
all
the
information
about
their
customers
about
the
balances
and
everything.
So
it's
like
their
internal
stuff,
which
is
again
even
the
information
about
who
holds
what
balance
is
sort
of
restricted
on
our
side,
but
then
they
want
to
deploy
x
amount
of
funds
into.
You
know
some
strategy
on.
D
Let's
say
I
don't
know
phantom
network
on
ether
network,
whatever
it
is
or
any
other
network
that
that
you
know
that
would
support.
So
the
question
comes
in:
how
do
we?
How
do
we
know
how
to
distribute
the
rewards?
So,
for
instance,
you
know
they
deploy
hundred
dollars
and
we,
you
know
we
we
put
in
the
strategy,
then
there's
a
harvest
transaction.
So
basically,
let's
say
some
rewards
being
accumulated
twenty
dollars.
For
instance,
the
question
comes
in
place.
D
You
know
specifically
this
this
business.
They
would
only
work
with
ethereum
network
on
their
side.
That's
the
only
network
that
they
have.
The
technical
sort
of
capability
at
this
moment
you
know
infrastructure
to
support,
but
then
let's
say
we
have
a
strategy
on
fenton
and
then
the
question
comes
in
place.
How
do
they
deploy
funds
on
ethereum
so
that
they
get
sort
of
bridged
and
then,
after
they
get
bridged,
they
get
put
into
some
strategy
involved
and
then
how
do
they
trigger
the
harvest
rewards
or
who
does
trigger
it?
D
So,
basically,
who
decides
on
whether
rewards
should
be
sort
of
harvested?
Is
it
automatically?
Is
it
predefined
earlier
or
they
do
it
basically
that
kind
of
spot.
So
those
kind
of
questions
come
in
place.
What
kind
of
a
logical
you
know,
sequence
of
events
we
deploy
with
them
and
as
we
as
we
go
further,
it
turns
out
that
there's
a
lot
of
questions
that
even
knowing,
for
instance,
when
the
distribution
of
rewards
like
should
be
triggered,
or
that
should
happen,
the
frequency
of
it.
That's
something
that
we
shouldn't
know,
then.
D
I
mean
if
they
really
wanted,
they
could
go
and
build
them
themselves
right.
So
that's
that's
the
part
of
d5,
it's
sort
of
permissionless,
but
it's
more
about
safeguarding
and
make
sure
that
we
stay
on
on
our
path.
So
again,
what
in
simplifying,
like
all
of
I
said,
just
right
now,
it's
basically
making
sure
that
we
have
less
legal
headache.
Why?
D
So
before
we
get
into
the
question,
how
do
we
make
sure
that
you
know
we
protect
the
information
about
what
sort
of
entity
and
you
know
has
deployed
assets
and
how
many
you
know
how
much
money
have
they
deployed
to?
So
that's
that's
another
interesting
topic
of
sort
of
like
let's
say
of
discussion
there.
A
I
don't
want
to
jump
in
front
of
anybody
all
right,
so
so
the
follow-on
to
that
anton
is,
you
know
sometimes
and
don't
take
this
the
wrong
way,
but
I
I
I
will
I
will
joke.
I
will
joke
with
my
friends
in
the
d5
world
and
I
will
say
you
know:
2008
wasn't
good
enough.
We
had.
We
have
to
reinvent
systemic
risk
but
make
it
way
more
intense
right.
A
Right
d5
is
like
wait,
a
minute
wasn't
blockchain
invented
to
not
do
you
know
systemic
risk?
You
know
gambling
on
whether
something's
going
to
go
up
or
down
has
always
been
a
foreign
object
to
me,
but
but
it
seems
to
work
right
and
I
mean
clearly,
enterprises
are
saying:
hey
wait,
you
know
we.
This
is
new
and
boy.
There's
a
lot
of
gambling
money.
We
can
get
access
to
okay,
great,
so
that's
my
joke,
but
in
in
all
seriousness,
no
I'm
already
taking
heat
for
plug
and
tree
trunk
already
once
so.
A
Tree
trunk
tree
trunk,
dot
io,
please
go
there,
no
I'm
kidding
so,
which
is
baseline,
baseline
pattern
two
by
the
way
so,
and
anybody
by
the
way
I
should
say
anybody
that
wants
to
come
on
and
plug
their
baseline
pattern
project
company
thing
you
you
are
welcome
to
do
so.
Please
come
up
and
until
then
I'll
just
keep
on
plugging
my
own
stuff.
Well,.
A
A
Bundling
them
really
did
a
number
on
that
right.
You
couldn't
you
couldn't
get
back
to
the
the
data.
Zero
knowledge.
Also,
its
primary
role
is
to
make
sure
that
you
don't
have
access
to
that
data,
but
you
at
least
know
that
things
are
right,
but
at
some
point,
if
something
goes
horribly
wrong,
you
need
to
be
able
to
unpack
the
box
nick.
I
know
you
guys
have
an
answer
to
part
of
this,
but
what
are
your
thoughts
on
that.
D
Yeah,
so
it's
it's
pretty
it's
pretty
interesting
and
I'd
say
this
is
why,
for
instance,
right
when
it
comes
to
like
regulated
activity,
there's
still
a
custodian
right
that
holds
in
our
case,
I'm
talking
about
our
specific
case
that
that
holds
all
the
information
about
about
you.
So
basically
again,
you
know
kyc
information
and
ml
information.
So
in
the
worst
case,
events,
if
there's
any,
I
would
say
unpacking-
is
required.
D
If
there's
any
sort
of
you
know
specific
questions,
I
don't
know
coming
into
that
case,
then
the
the
only
thing
that
is
basically
required
from
us
is
to
pass
on
the
information
what
they
count
right
and
we
the
only
way
we
can
prove
it
is
again
so
to
look
what
specific
account
is
in
question,
so
a
specific
person,
in
this
case
a
physical
entity
and
what
would
be
there
and
then
fire
that
we
work
with.
So
it's
it's,
not
it's
not
known
to
us.
D
We
don't
even
know
who
is
the
person
of
you
know
any
question
there.
So
then
the
only
question
comes
back
to
us
is
what
wallet
has
interacted
with
that
id
which
again
is
linked
to
a
physical
entity?
So
knowing
a
specific
non-custodial
wallet
address
that,
has
you
know
sort
of
interacted
with
this
id
and
knowing
this
id?
That's
all
we
need.
So
in
our
case
again,
it's
it's
sort
of
like
is
is
easy
and
that's
why,
for
us
it
was
this
very
you
know
very
simple,
like
aha
moment,
okay!
D
Well,
why
don't
we
use
it
so
again,
the
use
case
here
is
is
sort
of
like
very
simple.
It's.
Basically,
we
don't
care
what
not
consider
what
you
use.
The
only
thing
we
care
is
that
if
you
own
it
right
and
the
only
you
know
an
easy
way
to
prove,
if
you
own,
it
is
if
you
can
sign
a
message
from
that
address,
so
that's
sort
of
like
the
only
thing
that
we
need
and
the
only
thing
that
we
need
for
me
as
a
user
is
sort
of
like
okay.
D
Well,
if
you've
accessed
your
like
debit
card
account,
it
would
have
an
identifier.
So
we
only
need
to
know
that
identifier,
which
is
by
default,
you
know,
sort
of
like
it
can
be
even
publicly
exposed.
It
doesn't,
doesn't
give
any
sort
of
sense
or
connection
unless
you
have
access
to
internal
information
of
the
custodians
or
regulated
entity
out
there.
So
in
our
case,
it's
it's
pretty
easy,
but
I
think
that
as
we
go
to
more
complicated
use
cases,
for
instance
right
to
working
with
different,
you
know
savings
out
there.
D
Then
that's
it's.
You
know
it's
a
good
question.
I
don't
think
I
have
an
answer
just
yet
and
that's
why
I
would
say
you
know
that's
why
it
takes
time
to
build
like
really
really
working
use
cases
out
there,
but
I
know
to
you
to
your
comment
about
what's
happening
like
in
the
defy
world
like
why
why,
for
instance,
savings
right,
so
why
are
interest
rates
higher
than
you
know,
normal
banks
would
have
or
something
like
that.
Where
does
you
know?
D
Where
does
that
interest
you
know
comes
from,
and-
and
this
is
also
I
think
very
interesting
to
you-
know-
to
the
users
you
know
to
listeners
here,
the
show
you
know
everybody
sees
obviously
like
gazillion,
apy
kind
of
stuff,
which
I
think
I
hope
I
hope
everybody
understands
that.
Obviously
that's
not
sustainable,
that's
you
know,
that's
that
doesn't
doesn't
hold.
So
if
you
see
something
that
tells
you
you
can
earn,
you
know
one
billion
percent
annually,
most
likely.
That
thing
will
live.
D
I
don't
know
a
day
or
week
and
not
gonna
get
into
details
like
how
it
works.
So
hopefully
you
avoid
that
stuff,
but,
for
instance,
something
like
compound
something
like
ava
offers.
You,
like,
I
don't
know
four
percent
ten
percent
interest
rates
on
like
or
for
instance,
like
stable
coins.
So
where
does
that
interest
come
from
just
like
apr,
apy,
yeah,
yeah,
so
basically
annual
percentage
yield
or
annual
percentage
rate
not
getting
into
far
into
details?
It
comes
from
the
overall
activity
in
the
market.
D
So
basically,
if
more
people
want
to
borrow
your
money,
that
you
know
that
you
offer
the
higher
your
interest
rate
is.
Why
do
people
want
to
borrow
your
money?
Well,
that
comes
back
to
speculation,
so,
for
instance,
if
you
can
borrow
a
stablecoin,
so,
for
instance
usdc,
which
is
which
is
worth
you
know
one
dollar
back
to
one
dollar
and
you
can
deploy
that
and
buy.
I
don't
know
eth
or
btc
that
is
going
to
go
up
in
price.
D
You
make
profit
and
as
long
as
you
make
profits
more
than
the
basically
the
interest
that
you
have
to
pay
off
your
loan,
you
know
you're
good.
So,
overall,
the
reason
why,
in
very
simple
terms,
why
we
see
such
high
interest
rates
is
that
there's
a
lot
and
a
lot
of
interest
not
just
from
the
retail
users,
but
also
from
the
institutions
that
do
want
to
borrow
and
do
want
to
invest
on
a
margin.
So
basically
they
want
to
deploy
more
funds
that
that,
basically,
they
would
be
at.
D
B
D
B
D
Lot
of
things
yeah,
so
there's
a
lot
of
questions
and
that
premium
that
you
basically
receive.
So
it
becomes
again
a
question.
So,
for
instance,
if
you
want
to
deploy
a
hundred
dollars
right-
and
I
don't
know
you
can
get,
for
instance,
like
eight
percent-
you
know
annually-
which,
which
is
basically
eight
dollars
back-
that
that
doesn't
make
a
lot
of
sense,
because
just
the
gas
fees
right.
D
D
So
it
becomes
a
lot
of
questions
in
terms
of
okay.
Well,
there's
other
networks,
but
it
all
comes
back
to
you
know
how
much
you
can
get
right
with
this
like
it
makes
sense
and
there's
technology
risks
you
know,
contracts
have
bugs.
They
have
errors,
there's
oracle
issues.
You
know
if
you're
using
like
non,
you
know,
even
if
you're
using
stable
assets.
So,
for
instance,
like
there
was
a
a
very
interesting
this
couple
of
times.
D
It
was
like
that
when
what
a
while
ago,
there's
a
there's,
a
permissionless,
stable
coin,
called
dai,
which
is
which
was
initially
primarily
backed
by
eth.
Now
it's
a
bit
more
diversified,
but
even
though
it's
stable,
an
oracle
can
have
an
issue
and
which
would
report
the
wrong
price
if
it
reports
the
wrong
price
and
you're
using
the
leverage
right
so
you've,
you
know
you've
lended
something
or
you
borrowed
something
and
there's
basically
it
you
depend
on
this
price
stability.
So
if
for
us.
D
D
Right,
yeah,
yeah
yeah.
So
that's
why,
of
course,
there's
risks
and
that's
why
and
that's
one
of
the
one
of
the
reasons
right
so
why
institutions
are
still
cautious
about
defy
like
okay,
what
kind
of
risks
does
it
hold?
Is
it
but
again,
just
like
anything
else
in
the
software
right,
there's
there's
always
risks.
It's
always
risks.
D
You
know
those
interest
rates
are
going
to
drop.
There's
no
doubt
because
again,
you
know,
there's
going
to
be
just
like
too
much
capital.
You
know
too
much
liquidity,
so
you
know
we're
just
going
to
equalize
it,
but
up
until
then-
and
I
don't
know
when
it's
going
to
happen-
that's
that's
why
I
enjoy
you
know
higher
interest
rates,
yeah.
B
Most
of
the
pools
that
we
operate
based
on
real
world
assets
right,
one
in
particular
for
gig
economy
workers,
the
asset
originators
there,
provide
business
cash
advances
or
invoice
financing
for
gig
economy
workers.
If
you're
an
uber,
lyft
driver,
you
know
you
can
get
paid
every
day
right
and
get
paid
at
a
small
fee.
Now
fact
is
uber
offers
this
directly
as
a
service,
but
they
charge
a
transaction
fee.
B
And
if
you,
if
you
were
to
calculate
that
transaction
fee,
it
ends
up
being
a
very
useful
sort
of
interest
rate
at
the
end
of
the
year
right
just
to
get
paid
every
day.
But
if
you
work
through
moves
financial,
which
is
one
of
the
asset
originators
on
our
platform,
they
effectively
act
as
the
bank
for
the
for
the
drivers
and
they
will
provide
a
business
cash
advance
against
your
future,
driving
at
a
much
more
reasonable
rate
right
closer
to
like
20
25
percent.
B
B
It's
doing
that
by
churning
these
business
cash
advances
at
you
know,
10
what
we're
loaning
the
money
at
and
you
know
being
able
to
drive
the
returns
for
the
senior
and
junior
investors,
we're
starting
to
see
more
complex
structures
as
well,
where
it's
not
just
two
tranches.
It's
it's
three
or
four
different
layers
in
the
capital
stack.
Some
of
those
layers
are
off
chain
right,
we're
moving
to
a
model
where
we
over
collateralize
the
the
loans.
B
If
you
will
on
gig
pool
in
order
to
take
that
first
risk
back
to
the
asset
originator
instead
of
the
junior
investors
online,
which
effectively
makes
the
junior
tier
now
a
mezzanine
level
right
much
safer,
the
returns
are
a
little
lower
but
they're
safe
right.
I
mean,
and
that's
one
reason
why
the
real
world
asset
market
on
ave,
which
takes
a
lot
of
these
pools
on
centrifuge
right,
the
gig
pool
new
silver,
which
does
like
home
improvement
loans,
branded
inventory
financing.
B
You
know
all
these
different
real
world
assets
and
bundles
them.
Together
into
a
single
vehicle
that
kyc'd
usd
holding
ave,
investors
can
invest
in
like
a
mutual
fund
right
to
diversify
their
portfolio.
If
you
go
out
and
you
look
at
rwa
market
dot
io
today
and
I'm
just
looking
right
now,
we
just
launched
it
shortly
after
christmas.
It's
like
17
million
right
now.
B
It's
generating
a
2.9
return
to
people
right,
which
is
not
huge.
There
are
secondary
rewards,
as
is
often
the
case
right
anton
mentioned.
This
secondary
rewards
are
great
for
getting
people
in
early
and
sending
them
to
participate,
but
when
those
secondary
awards
go
away,
if
the
the
investment
is
not
viable,
it's
not
viable
and
it's
going
to
die
right.
So
we
try
to
build
all
of
our
all
of
our
investments
to
be
viable
in
and
of
themselves,
and
then
the
secondary
rewards
just
provide
that
incentive
to
act.
A
Know
as
much
as
like
three
percent,
you
know
three
percent
on
a
30-day
invoice.
You
know,
that's,
you
know,
run
that
out
to
apr.
That's
a
nice
number,
that's
a
big
number
and
I
remember
asking
one
company
that
was
that
was
taking
advantage
of
this,
and
this
was
through
one
of
the
banks
right.
The
bank
was
giving
them
the
money
like
within
five
days
and
then
they
get
the
bank
would
get
paid
back
in
30
or
60
days,
and
I'm
like
how
can
you.
B
Or
make
it
up
on
volume,
I
see
a
question
from
otto
with
respect
to
the
gig.
Is
that
like
a
payday
loan
kind
of
except
the
interest
rates,
are
much
much
lower,
so
they're
not
considered
payday
loans
right
business
cash
advances,
it's
a
fine
line
in
my
mind,
but
you
know
one
of
the
other
asset
originators
that
works
with
influencers
only
works
on
the
invoicing
side.
B
So
if
you're,
an
influencer
like
john
and
you're
on
tick,
tock
and
instagram-
and
you
know
you're
shilling,
your
your
nfts
or
actually
your
branded
nfts
working
with
you
know
louis
vuitton
maze.
Or
what
have
you
right?
You
basically
invoice
them
for
the
work
that
you've
done
and
then
you
know
the
brands
pay
you
for
that
work.
Sometimes
it
could
take
90
or
even
120
days,
paperchain,
one
of
the
other
or
excuse
me,
willowpay.
B
B
So
we
make
a
little
bit
of
the
spread
today
that
helps
offset
our
operational
costs
and
our
goal
is
to
get
that
spread
to
zero
over
time
and
then
there's
the
ultimately
the
cost
of
running
the
system
right.
So
this
runs
on
centrifuge
a
great
partner,
great
platform,
probably
one
of
the
most
mature
kind
of
debt
operating
pool
platforms
out
there.
There
are
others
trufy
maple
goldfinch.
B
They
all
have
their
different
attributes
to
them,
but
with
respect
to
centrifuge
you
know,
investors
bring
their
die,
they
invest
in
either
drop
or
10
drop,
being
the
senior
10
being
the
junior
and
then,
as
the
loans
are
brought
in
turned
into
nfts,
funded
and
paid
back.
The
returns
pay
off
your
junior
and
seniors.
B
It
works
very
well
runs
completely
on
ethereum
at
least
the
pool
operation
part.
The
nft
part
is
on
a
substrate
chain,
their
their
own
chain
at
the
moment
to
keep
costs
down,
but
yeah
each
one
of
those
transactions
has
in
one
case,
depending
on
the
time
of
day.
We
did
one
transaction
that
closed
an
epoch
right.
So
these
things
operate
in
epochs,
if
you're
an
investor-
and
you
want
to
withdraw
your
money-
you
you
make
a
redemption
request
when
the
liquidity
comes
available,
you
get
your
liquidity.
B
Likewise,
when
you
close
a
loan
before
you
can
issue
another
one,
you
need
to
wait
for
everything
to
settle,
because
it
essentially
is
calculating
the
nav
every
day
right,
but
anyway,
I
forgot
where
I
was
going
with
that
other
than
the
fact
that
it
all
happens
on
a
theory
when
it's
expensive
today
right
one
time,
we
we
closed
an
epoch.
It
was
twenty
four
hundred
dollars
in
eth
just
to
close
just
to
settle
kind
of
where
we
were
for
the
day
right.
B
In
the
case
of
these,
these
gig
economy
kind
of
asset
originators,
the
average
loans
are
relatively
small
they're,
like
400
bucks,
1200
bucks
in
the
case
of
paper
chain
which
works
with
musicians.
It's
like
35
000,
that's
a
little
bit
more
reasonable,
but
because
those
those
the
actual
end
user
loan
is
so
low.
We
need
to
bundle
them
up.
We
need
to
you
know,
package
them
into
a
size
that
makes
our
cost
feasible.
B
So
you
know
they
get
bundled
depending
on
the
asset
originator.
They
get
bundled
up
into
250k
notes.
1.2
million
dollar
notes
that
kind
of
thing
and
they
over
collateralize
them
now
right.
So
instead
they
want
to
borrow,
say:
100
000.
They
need
to
put
120
000
worth
of
collateral
into
the
system
that
effectively
turns
them
into
the
first
loss,
capital
right
and
away.
You
go
and
we
fund
80
of
the
loan
to
value.
A
That's
pretty
cool,
hey.
We
are
closing
in
on
the
top
of
the
hour.
That
was
amazing,
anton
and
nick
I'd
like
to
throw
back
to
sonal
and
and
ask
so
let
me
the
the
baseline
team
has
been
doing
tons
of
work.
What
announcements
do
we
need
to
close
out
the
the
the
day
on
anything
anything
new
that
people
need
to
know
about.
C
So
we
I
encourage
anybody
out
there
listening
to.
Please
join
our
community,
and
we
also
will
have
more
baseline
shows
like
this,
going
forward
different
themes,
every
few
weeks
and
more
guests
joining
us
and
I
hope,
nick
and
anton.
I
hope
you
will
join
us
as
often
as
you
can
in
the
future.
It
was
great
having
you
today.
Thank
you.
A
You
guys
absolutely
both
and
great
to
see
everybody
here,
charles
todd,
it's
so
cool
to
see
you
here
on
the
thing
and
everybody.
So
one
couple
last
things
one
is
that,
while
the
baseline
team
didn't
really
have
a
coordinated
showing
at
east
denver,
I
think
our
lesson
is
that
that's
the
last
time
we
should
do
that
they're,
a
hell
of
a
there,
are
a
hell
of
a
lot
of
good
developers
in
the
baseline
community.
A
There's
a
ton
of
really
good
people.
We've
got
some
of
them
on
this
call
right
now:
they're
they're
people
that
are
getting
jobs
in
the
in
the
space.
There's
there's
projects
coming
up.
I
heard
about
another
one
that
last
week
yeah,
so
I
just
still
frustrated
that
a
lot
of
these
enterprise
projects
won't
tell
tell
anybody
about
what
they're
doing
they're
whispering
to
me
and
then
I'm
like
okay,
well,
that
that
puts
me
in
a
bad
position,
because
I've
got.
A
A
I
still
think
at
this
point
that
baselining
is
a
is
an
infosec
story
about
cross-party
workflows,
it's
about
high
information
security
and,
oh
by
the
way,
there's
some
blockchain
in
there
in
used
in
a
very
sensible
way,
and
so
from
that
perspective
I
think,
there's
a
lot
of
events
that
we
could.
We
could
be
dropping
a
lot
of
developers
on
so
if
you've
got
one
of
those
events,
please
let
us
know
give
us
a
call,
go
to
baselineprotocol.org
get
involved,
I'm
assuming.