►
From YouTube: Basingstoke Gov - Licensing Committee - 17/04/2023
Description
If there is buffering on the YouTube stream, the webcast can be viewed through the council's website https://www.basingstoke.gov.uk/webcast
A
Good
evening
everybody
it's
half
past
now,
so
if
we
may
will
put
this
kick
kick
kick
this
one
off
a
bit
of
housekeeping
first,
there
are
no
fire
alarms
scheduled
for
this
evening.
Therefore,
if
the
fire
alarm
sounds,
please
evacuate
the
building
immediately.
The
fire
exit
is
located
at
the
side
of
this
room
exit
through
reception
and
meet
in
the
War
Memorial
Park.
A
This
meeting
is
being
webcast,
live
on
the
internet
and
will
be
available
to
view
on
YouTube
after
the
meeting
can
I
ask
everybody
to
please
either
switch
or
410
silent
their
mobile
phones.
Thank
you.
A
Right
so
apologies
for
absence
and
substitutions
councilor
James
is
replaced
by
councilor
malalini
councilor
husky
is
replaced
by
councilor.
Slimming
councilor
Philly
Moore
is
replaced
by
councilor
Harvey
counselor
Durant
has
sent
his
apologies
and
councilor
Tom
has
sent
his
apologies,
their
apologies
right.
Thank
you.
Does
anybody
wish
to
declare
any
Declarations
of
Interest?
A
A
B
You
chair,
this
is
technically
a
game
of
four
halves.
That's
my.
C
Best
one
of
the
evening,
so
the
so
the
first
part
is
the.
B
Private
hire
changes
to
the
private
hire
driver's
Knowledge
Test.
B
We
then
have
two
that
look
at
changes
for
those
changes
to
the
Hackney,
Carriage
terms
and
conditions
and
then,
lastly,
a
very
quick
one
to
give
the
head
of
environment
and
Community
the
ability
to
make
a
minor
change
to
the
policy.
Once
we
have
some
detail
coming
out
of
government
with
regard
to
the
regulatory
changes
with
relation
to
vehicle
specifications,
which
I
don't
think
anybody
is
going
to
have
any
excitement
for
whatsoever.
B
But
we'll
start
with
the
more
interesting
Elements,
which
is,
firstly,
the
private
hires,
so
I'm
very
pleased
to
be
able
to
say
that,
after
a
long
period
of
decline,
we
are
now
seeing
a
increase
in
the
number
of
private
hire
driver
applications
into
the
borough,
which
is
very
welcome.
As
you
can
see.
From
the
the
background,
the.
B
B
I
won't
go
over
the
reasons
for
that
again,
but
obviously
covid
and
the
number
of
Journeys
that
were
available
during
that
time
have
been
key
and
as
a
result
of
that,
a
lot
of
drivers
also
went
across
to
the
burgeoning
home
delivery
business,
which
obviously
offers
people
a
much
nicer
working
hour.
More
reliable
pay
and
a
lot
less
grief
for
nighttime
economy
work.
B
However,
we
are
now
pleased
to
say
that
the
number
of
private
hire
drivers
is
starting
to
increase,
and
that
is
shown
in
on
page
15
of
your
reports
in
appendix
one
which
shows
you
that
the
number
of
private
hire
drivers
for
2023
shows
a
considerable
uplift
from
2022..
B
I
am
not
in
any
way
saying
that
the
issues
of
difficulty
with
drivers
turning
up
on
time
or
overbooking
by
operators
or
those
problems
will
remain
with
us
for
some
time
and
partly
that
has
been
exacerbated
by
societal
changes,
for
example,
as
the
cost
of
living
has
increased
and
through
the
increase
in
homework,
and
quite
a
lot
of
families
that
used
to
operate
two
cars.
They
operate
one
car
and
that
Gap
is
being
met
by
the
private
hire
trade.
B
That
is
a
career
decision
for
people.
But
what
we
can
do
is
make
sure
that
the
process
is
as
straightforward
as
is
possible.
Now
those
of
you
who
have
undertaken
training
with
me
will
know
that
there
is
quite
a
convoluted
route
to
becoming
a
driver.
It
is
one
of
the
most
heavily
legislated
professions
out
there,
because
the
Bedrock
of
it
is
Public
Safety
and
we
need
to
take
all
the
relevant
steps
to
ensure
that
Public
Safety
is
maintained.
B
B
B
The
reason
is
quite
simple:
the
private
hire
industry
has
seen
a
whole
scale
transformation
over
the
last
decade
as
computer,
aided
tracking
GIS
systems
and
dispatch
mechanisms
have
come
into
place.
Gone
are
the
days
when
there
was
somebody
literally
sat
there
behind
a
desk
with
a
copy
of
Yellow
Pages,
a
sheet
of
paper
and
jerking
down
the
jobs
and
going
car
number
seven.
Can
you
go
to
cleckheaton
Street?
Please
pick
up
Mrs
miggins
from
number
seven.
Those
days
are
well
and
truly
over.
B
Drivers
now
receive
all
their
communication
through
their
PDA
and
that
PDA
tells
them
who
they're
picking
up
where
they're
picking
them
up,
where
they're
taking
them
to
and
importantly
where
the
journey
should
go,
and
that
is
optimized
based
on
traffic
conditions
and
all
sorts
of
other
variables,
and
that
is
now
almost
Universal
in
the
private
hire
trade.
B
They
are
not
encouraged
to
go
off
peace
and
take
various
other
routes,
so
it
seems
little
point
in
that
situation
of
giving
drivers
or
requiring
drivers
to
have
a
large
amount
of
knowledge
of
the
area.
If
they're
going
to
be
told
where
to
go,
no
don't
do
it.
You're
wrong
would
I.
Rather,
they
know
the
area
of
like
the
back
of
their
hand
and
know
exactly
where
they're
going
at
all
times.
B
I
think
that
is
the
case
I'm
sure
we
would
all
wish
that,
but
realistically
I'm
sure
you're
all
aware
that,
with
new
housing
developments
coming
up
in
all
sorts
of
areas,
it
doesn't
take
long
to
find
that
you've
suddenly
got
an
extra
10
streets.
In
fact,
satellite
navigation
may
be
the
only
way
you
would
find
your
wearing
those
10
strings.
B
So
my
first
recommendation
here
is
that
we
remove
the
geographical
requirement
from
the
private
hire
Knowledge
Test.
That
is
not
the
case
for
the
Hackney
Carriage
test,
who
obviously
do
not
are
not
dispatched
electronically.
They
are
hired
on
the
street
and
we
would
expect
those
drivers
to
have
a
decent
working
knowledge
of
where
they're
going,
that's
not
to
say
that
they
can't
use
an
electronic
device.
B
If
that's
what
they
wish
to
do,
but
I
expect
most
people
would
expect
that
whilst
we're
some
way
off
the
London
Knowledge
Test
of
people
riding
around
on
motorbikes
and
taking
them
two
years
to
learn
all
the
streets
I
think
we
would
wish
to
retain
that
for
what
I
had
to
be
Carriage
drivers.
B
A
Okay,
fine,
thank
you
very
much.
So
have
you
have
you
you've
you've
finished
your
piece
of
your
own.
Okay,
fine,
right,
I,
think
with
I.
Think
I
think
the
sensible
thing
to
do
is
if,
if
I
may
exactly,
we've
got
a
number
of
decisions
to
make
here.
It
seems
to
me
that
the
easiest
way
is
to
take
take
the
recommendations,
one
by
one
and
then
vote
on
them
and
then
move
on
to
the
next
one.
D
The
way
that
you're
saying
about
the
private
hire
and
geographical
knowledge,
and
also
the
gis
and
the
to
take
them
it's
becoming
similar
to
the
one
the
Uber
use
like
tomorrow
or
less,
and
also
what
is
happening
when
we
use
satellite
not
always
really
take
you
to
the
place
that
you
want
to
go.
So
how
do
we
really
overcome
that.
B
Yeah
I'm
always
very
careful
about
growing
any
analogies
with
Uber
I'm,
not
sure
that
that's
the
perfect
business
model,
but
they
have
certainly
elevated
it
to
a
very
high
level.
B
We
may
I'm
sure
get
some
questions
about
Uber
later
on
in
the
in
the
hearing,
but
the
the
model
is
basically
the
same.
Yes,
if
you
look
at
where
you're
drop
you,
you
know
where
all
your
vehicles
are
at
any
one
time
within
your
Fleet
and
you
can
therefore
dispatch
the
nearest
vehicle
to
that
location.
So
they
don't
have
to
go,
go
out.
Do
the
job
and
then
come
back
to
base.
B
They
can
go
out
from
one
job
to
the
next
job
to
the
next
job
to
the
next
job,
so
that
algorithm
is
there.
Yes,
there
is
always
some
variability
in
sat
navs,
yeah
I
think
we've
all
had
those
moments,
though
there
are
less
and
less
and
within
a
confined
area.
B
Are
they
better
or
worse
than
a
driver's
knowledge,
probably
better
I
hate
to
say
that,
but
so
yes,
I
mean
there
will
always
be
the
differences
between
you
know:
Wimbledon,
Avenue
and
Wimbledon
Road,
for
example.
They
could
be
in
two
completely
different
parts
of
the
town,
foreign.
A
E
B
I
would
refer
to
say
councilor
that
different
authorities
operate
very
different
schemes.
There
are
plenty
of
authorities
now
that
are
dropping
the
knowledge
geographical
Knowledge
Test.
Equally,
the
few
years
ago,
bath
attempted
to
ban
drivers
from
using
electronic
devices
that
didn't
last
very
long.
F
I
just
wanted
to
ask
you:
if
we're
going
to
do
this
one
five
or
higher?
Do
you
think
it's
going
to
be
fair
on
the
heckney
carriages,
because
we're
sort
of
give
an
advantage
to
the
competition
on
WE
by
taking
that
out.
B
I,
don't
think
it's
an
advantage
counselor.
It
is
here
as
a
way
of
streamlining
the
application
process
to
get
drivers
through
for
the
private
higher
trade
I
wish
that
we
were
inundated
with
new
Hackney
Carriage
applicants.
But,
alas,
that
is
not
the
case.
Most
of
our
Hackney
Carriage
applicants
would
come
through
the
private
hire
route
anyway,
so
that
most
of
them
will
be
private,
hire
drivers
who
then
move
on
to
being
Hackney
Carriage,
by
which
time
they
should
have
a
reasonable
working
knowledge
of
the
town.
B
Anyway,
trade
is
of
a
different
nature
to
the
private
hire
and
I'm
sure.
That's
something
that
we'll
come
on
to
discuss
later
on,
but
the
the
fundamental
difference
is
that
ability
to
be
hired
in
the
street
or
off
the
street,
with
no
notice
of
where
you're
going
to
go.
B
F
Yeah,
but
with
the
new
technology,
I
can
pick
someone
up
from
the
street
if
I
was
an
acne,
Carey,
striver
and
say:
okay
put
tap
it
into
my
certainly
have
given
the
phone
and
do
the
same
thing
as
a
private
hide.
That's
where
I'm
coming
from
in
a
sense,
it's
not
fair
on
them,
because
they're
basically
got
the
same
technology.
The
only
difference
is
you're
not
gonna
in
advance.
B
I
think
it's
a
perfectly
valid
point
of
view.
I
am
more
than
happy
to
look
at
that
as
a
as
a
potential
change
to
that,
the
that
the
carriage
policy
going
forward
yeah-
it's
not
in
the
in
the
argument
for
today,
but
I'm-
certainly
happy
to
to
bring
up
again
at
a
future
hearing.
B
I
don't
want
to
steal
Emma's
Thunder,
but
we're
probably
looking
at
over
we're
looking
at
reviewing
the
Hackney
carriage
and
private
hire
licensing
policy
in
November
this
year
anyway.
So
we
can
discuss
it
then
as
an
option,
then.
B
We
haven't
consulted
with
the
private
hire
drivers
per
se.
We
have
consulted
with
the
a
number
of
the
private
hire
operators,
one
of
whom
is
represented
here
today,
Mr
Denny,
and
this
has
certainly
been
welcomed
by
them,
as
as
operators.
A
Thank
you,
councilor
Patty,.
B
B
You
know
they
sign
on
and
out
of
the
jobs
with
it,
and
it
is
the
same
technology,
obviously
that
many
people
rely
on
within
their
vehicles
today
to
navigate
around
with
so
it's
perfectly
legally
compliant
with
what
it
is
and
as
I
say,
the
unit
itself
will
direct
them
yeah,
and
then
you
know
without
any
further
all
they
do.
Is
they
say
right?
We've
arrived
at
my
destination,
they
press
the
depart
button
and
the
unit
tells
them
where
they're
going
to
go.
H
Hi
yeah
on
the
I
welcome
this
actually
because
I've
got
one
question
on
the
sac
level:
what
the
system
does
it
throw
up
a
price
because
you're
talking
private
hire,
so
they
know
where
you're,
going
and
everywhere
else
now
you
can
ask
for
a
price
as
you
most
people
do,
but
if
you
don't,
is
there
a
price
showing
what
what
that
Journey
will
cost
on.
B
That
one,
the
price
of
any
private
hire
Journey,
should
be
agreed
at
the
point
of
booking.
That's
the
key
function
of
it,
so,
whether
you
you're
from
the
back
of
the
vehicle
you're
not
going
to
be
able
to
read
the
display,
that's
the
long
and
short
of
it.
It's
not
like
having
a
meter
in
an
early
Carriage
where
you
know
the
cost
is
there
ticking
over,
but
you
should
have
I.
H
Yeah
I
understand
where
you're
coming
from
it
would
be
nice
to
make
sure,
because
it
doesn't
always
happen.
I,
don't
think
people
you're
being
called
by
these
companies,
but
it
would
be
nice
to
know
if
you
got
on
a
cab
private
higher
that
what
the
cost
is.
If
you
haven't
bothered
to
ask,
but
I'll
just
throw
that
one
in
and
secondly
like,
although
I
see
it's
great
when
it
works.
H
H
B
I
think
it's
it's
a
fair
comment
about
how
frequently
these
Sat
Nav
systems
are
updated,
but
these
are
Big
commercial
systems.
You
know
they're,
not
some
little
Fly
by
Night
outfits.
These
are
people
who
Supply
systems
on
a
national
basis,
so
they
have
a
vested
interest
because
they
charge
the
operators
a
very
high
fee
for
this,
the
sort
of
fee
that
would
make
your
own
eyes
water.
B
If
we
were
using
it
for
private
use,
it's
a
commercial
tool.
It
is
there
to
reduce
operator
costs
in
the
form
of
fuel
and
Driver
time,
and
operators
will
not
be
tolerant
of
systems
that
do
not
function
quickly,
efficiently
and
accurately.
I
You
I'd
like
to
support
this
motion.
I
have
been
using
the
local
taxi
firms.
I
Recently,
I
came
back
from
Oxford
and
we
went
to
the
theater
and
the
buses
had
just
gone
so
I
actually
went
to
the
office
and
booked
one
and
they
were
very
efficient,
and
there
is
a
big
notice
board
up
to
tell
you
exactly
how
much
it
is
to
go
to
tardy
it's
17
pounds
or
it
was
then
it
might
have
gone
up
a
little
bit
since
then,
but
I'm
sure
they
keep
it
updated
and
they,
you
do
know,
as
somebody
I
also
use
them
up
in
Hatfields
in
Welling
Garden
City
when
I
was
working
and
you
know
which
vehicles
come
in,
you
get
the
registration
of
the
vehicle.
I
You
know
what
type
of
vehicle
to
look
out
for
they're
coming
to
pick
you
up
and
whether
you're
outside
a
station
or
you're
in
the
street.
You
know
where
they're
coming
to
and
I
found
it
very
efficient
and
I.
Think
it's
a
very
good
thing
to
have
and
I
certainly
think
with
modern
technology.
We
have
to
move
forward
and
I
very
much
welcome
this.
A
A
A
Would
like
to
make
the
point
at
this
stage
that
I
didn't
think
it's
necessary
or
useful
for
the
committee
to
question
Mr
dainty
after
he
said
his
peace
when
we,
when
we
discussed
the
whole
issue
between
us,
we
can
all
express
our
comments
and
say:
I
would
prefer
it
if
we
didn't
have
questions
for
Mr
dainty
afterwards
over
to
your
Visa.
J
Okay,
thanks
just
just
the
Hackney
Carriage
side,
with
the
recommendations.
Basically,
the
report
looks
like
it's
a
holding
pattern
because
we're
in
a
situation
where
we
know
that
there's
a
lack
of
drivers
coming
through
and
Hackney
Carriage
side.
It's
really
really
bad,
as
we
know,
as
we've
discussed
before.
J
So,
if
I
can
just
deal
with
the
first
part
pollution
and
then
the
rear
loaders
on
the
Euros
on
the
pollution
side,
the
Euro
Ford
Euro,
five,
they
are
the
most
pollutant
vehicles
and
we
do
have
a
need
to
look
at
vehicles
in
that
way.
At
the
moment,
we
have
no
air
pollution
issues
in
Beijing,
stock
and
I,
don't
believe,
there's
an
issue
for
a
us
either.
J
J
J
J
So
what's
that
six
thousand
cars,
all
of
those
are
going
to
be
Electric,
all
of
those
are
going
to
be
less
than
Euro
fours,
Euro
fives
doubt
it
so
the
pollution
is
going
to
be
caused
simply
by
providing
the
need
that
we
do
have
for
additional
housing
is
going
to
create
much
more
pollution
than
about
half
a
dozen
vehicles
or
four
vehicles
at
the
moment
that
are
desperately
needed
to
provide
a
service
in
the
town
and
we've
all
seen
it
we've
all
know.
We
know
the
waiting
times.
J
J
Ages
are
very
arbitrary.
You
know
you
can
have
a
vehicle
that
might
be
five
years
old.
It's
a
lot
worse
than
a
vehicle,
it's
15
years
old,
so
we
would
suggest
that
maybe
the
Euro
four
Euro
five
should
be
extended
by
two
years
and
Euro
six
should
be
looked
at
as
an
individual,
with
a
no
exit.
Now,
if
you
move
on
to
Reloaders,
Reloaders
were
discussed
in
Parliament
and
Parliament
raised
can
raise
lots.
J
About
real
loaders
radar,
dude
yeah
yeah
I
did
RAC
rossburgh.
J
All
of
these
people
were
concerned
about
spinal
injuries
to
the
rear
of
the
vehicle
that
could
be
increased
more
for
the
disabled
person
being
traveling
and
driver
deaths.
Violent
reckons
there
should
be
a
risk
assessment.
Have
we
done
a
risk
assessment
on
Reloaders
regarding
spinal
injury
to
the
pub
traveling
public?
Have
we
done
it
with
regard
to
drivers,
necessary,
I?
Think
to
be
looking
at
these
things
before
we
moved
to
real
loaders?
J
If
we
move
to
real
loaders,
when
we
had
the
meeting
recently,
I
think
it
was
17
of
us
turn
turned
up
I
think
there
were
three
against
a
three
four
Road
loaders
low,
loaders,
Reloaders,
sorry
and
the
rest
were
for
the
gold
standard,
the
standard
that
exists
today
in
base.
Instead,
we
think,
with
a
tweak
of
what
we're
asking
for
today,
we
can
still
achieve
that
gold
standard.
The
number
of
times
I've
come
here
since
the
1980s
and
been
told
we
want
to
run
a
golf
standard.
We
can
still
have
our
goal
standard.
J
If
we
have
a
look
at
these
sections
of
these
proposals
that
we're
asking
you
to
look
at
this
evening,
so
really
we
need
to
look
at
the
pollution
side
again,
I
think,
and
we
need
to
look
at
the
rear
loading
side,
because
it
is
a
real
concern
of
these
major
organizations
that
there
should
be
a
risk
assessment
before
these
vehicles
have
brought
in
to
licensing
and
I.
Think
that
that's
very
relevant.
Thank
you
very
much.
A
Thank
you.
Thank
you
Peter
we
did.
We
did
allow
you
four
minutes,
but
sorry,
no,
no,
no
problem,
I
I,
feel
that
what
you
said
is
very
relevant
and
the
committee
is
grateful
to
hear
your
views
and
now,
if
we
may
will
go
on
to
discussing
the
increase
the
age
which
vehicles
and
be
accepted
for
licensing
from
three
to
six
years
so
and
we
open
the
battery
on
that
one.
Please.
B
Thank
you
chair,
as
thank
you,
Peter.
The
there
are
multiple
issues
with
the
happy
Carriage
Trade
within
Basingstoke
us
Peter
has
already
alluded
to
Basingstoke
at
the
moment
has
was
sometimes
recorded.
That's
the
gold
standard,
which
is
the
London
style,
Hackney
Carriage
vehicle.
B
If
you
go
across
to
heart,
for
example,
then
the
honey
Carriage
vehicles
are
just
a
standard
saloon
car.
If
you
go
to
places
like
bracknell
and
wokingham
and
Windsor
and
maidenhead
all
their
vehicle
had
the
character.
Vehicles
are
reloading
ones.
B
The
key
issue
that
one
of
the
key
issues
that
we're
suffering
with
at
the
moment
in
the
trade
is
age,
whether
that
be
ages
of
the
drivers,
whether
that
be
issues
of
Ages
of
the
vehicles.
Now
at
the
moment,
we
have
a
policy
that
states
that
Vehicles
will
not
be
licensed
after
their
12th
birthday.
B
B
That's
generally
promotes
a
turnover
of
vehicles
within
the
trade,
and
that
hasn't
particularly
been
a
great
issue
for
us
over
the
last
few
years.
The
problem
we've
got
at
the
moment
is
is
that
the
Hackney
Carriage
Trade,
much
like
the
rest
of
the
motor
trade,
is
struggling
for
new
vehicles,
and
some
of
you
will
have
seen.
B
So
if
you
will
have
the
pleasure
of
riding
in
the
latest
Hackney
Carriage
vehicles,
either
within
our
own
bar,
we
have
we
have
one
or
within
London,
which
are
a
hybrid
vehicle,
so
they
predominantly
run
on
battery
power,
and
then
they
have
a
small
one
and
a
half
liter
engine
that
can
charge
that
battery
on
the
move,
underlay
the
vehicle
to
run
in
that
manner
or
it
can
be
charged
quickly,
not
in
a
fast
charging
port
which
allows
it
to
operate
and
give
a
range
of
approximately
80
miles
on
battery
alone.
B
These
are
no
doubt
super
Vehicles
I've
had
the
pleasure
of
bimbling
around
in
a
few.
They
are
very
pleasant
places
to
be
in.
They
are
nice
to
drive
I've
yet
to
meet
a
drive
route
in
the
like
one.
Unfortunately,
they're
also
65
000
pounds
and
you
can
spend
a
lot
more
than
that.
If
you
took
a
few
boxes
but
65
gets
you
a
basic
spec.
K
B
With
side
entry
loading,
that's
a
lot
of
money
and
it
is
considerably
more
than
many
of
the
vehicles
that
are
being
operated
on
the
rank
at
this
point
in
time
now,
whilst
you've
always
been
able
to
get
London,
taxis
and
they've
always
been
expensive.
There
have
also
been
Alternatives
in
the
form
of
minibuses
and
converted
to
medium-sized
minibuses
for
the
so-called
E7
or
Euro
Cup
Euro
cups,
and
again
we
have
a
number
of
those
vehicles
on
the
rank.
B
As
a
result
of
that,
there
are
very
few
of
those
Vehicles
available
on
the
market
at
the
moment,
even
for
people
who
just
want
to
buy
an
unconverted
one,
let
alone
if
you
actually
want
to
purchase
one
as
a
converter
and
convert
it
into
a
Hackney
carriage.
B
So
there
is
a
shortage
of
reasonably
priced
replacement
vehicles
within
the
market.
At
this
point
in
time,
I've
done
a
few
searches
on
this
I've
phoned
a
number
of
the
principal
suppliers
they
all
tail
and
stay
the
same
that
there
is
a
shortage
of
stock.
B
B
So
this
shortage
of
vehicles
and
the
fact
that
the
key
replacement
in
the
London
taxi
is
much
more
expensive
than
it
used
to
be
is
putting
pressure
on
the
trade.
Now
we
as
an
authority
set
that
standard,
so
the
drivers
do
not
have
a
decision
about
what
they
can
have.
They
can
only
have
what
we
allow
them.
So
it's
not
like
say
over
in
heart,
where
they
can
just
go
out
and
buy
normal
standard
saloon
car
which
might
be
50
20,
000
pounds.
B
They
have
to
have
a
vehicle
that
we
set
the
specification
for
and
that
specification
has
been
set,
as
Peter
has
mentioned
at
the
gold
standard
of
the
side,
loading
London
style
Taxi,
don't
get
me
wrong.
Would
I
prefer
to
keep
that
as
our
standard?
Yes,
I
would.
But
we
have
to
be
realistic
as
an
authority.
B
We
could
easily
double
the
fares
that
isn't
going
to
help
our
residents,
so
there
is
a
balance
there,
and
this
is
almost
unique
within
any
level
of
what
might
otherwise
deem
to
be
a
free
market,
because
on
one
level
it
is
a
free
market.
We
don't
employ
any
of
the
drivers,
but
equally
they
have
to
have
a
license
from
us.
B
They
have
a
license
vehicle
from
us
and
we
say
how
much
they
can
earn,
which
is
a
very
strange
setup,
but
that
is
the
one
that
we
have
so
the
proposals
here
are
that
we
increase
the
age
at
which
vehicles
can
come
onto
the
fleet,
which
would
effectively
mean
that
more
vehicles
are
available
for
drivers
to
choose
from
Pete
has
already
set
out
and
I
know
that
you've
also
had
an
email
from
another
one
of
our
operators.
The
case
for
extending
the
12-year
life
limit.
B
Hopefully,
within
a
couple
of
years
time,
there
will
be
greater
availability
of
minibuses
as
new
electric
vehicles
come
onto
the
market
and
the
supply
of
vehicles
increases
towards
those
people
who
are
doing
the
conversions
and
I
noticed
just
last
week
that
Ford
have
released
details
of
their
new
mid-sized
minibus.
B
That
will
almost
certainly
become
used
by
converters
as
a
base
vehicle.
So
those
vehicles
are
coming
onto
the
market.
They
are
not
there
at
this
point
in
time.
B
Secondly,
these
vehicles
are
used
very
heavily
within
the
Town
Center
I
hear
Pete's
point,
and
it
is
perfectly
correct
that
we
do
not
have
a
specific
air
pollution
issue
within
Basingstoke,
whether
you
like
the
layer
of
bathing
Stoke
or
not,
it
was
designed
around
the
motor
vehicle
and,
as
a
result,
most
of
the
traffic
that
doesn't
need
to
go
through
Basingstoke
doesn't
go
through
basing
statement.
B
B
They
are
of
an
older
style
construction
with
a
with
a
chassis
and
a
body
on
top,
and
their
crash
performance
is
not
particularly
good,
so
we'll
come
back
to
safety
with
the
rear,
loaders,
but
I
think
it's
just
worth
thinking
about
that.
These
aren't
particularly
older
vehicles.
B
So
the
recommendation
here
is
is
that
we
help
to
address
this
by
allowing
older
vehicles
to
come
onto
The
Fleets
now,
because
I'm
not
proposing
that
we
extend
the
life
of
these
vehicles.
That
does
mean
that
those
vehicles
have
a
shorter
operational
life,
and
you
may
feel
as
a
group
of
counselors,
that
you
wish
to
extend
the
operational
life,
which
is
the
news
that
the
trade
would
wish
you
to
do
as
well.
A
H
Just
on
the
extended
life
which
was
brought
off
of
the
of
the
12
or
13
years
or
whatever
it
is,
can
there
be
a
cut-off
Point
not
just
on
years,
but
on
pollution?
So,
if
the,
if
the
vehicle
is
12
years
old
and
it
goes
for
its
work-
they're
called
an
mot,
I
assume
and
it's
not
performing
at
a
level.
We
wish
to
see
not
what
the
government
wishes
to
see
what
we
wishes
to
see.
H
B
I
would
never
say
that
a
counselor
talks,
rubbish,
councilor
Jones,
the
the
I
think
that
that
is
a
potential
option
for
us.
I
think
what
I
would
say
is
is
that
the
testing
regime-
and
if
you
look
on
page
16
of
your
reports,.
B
You
can
see
there
the
the
differences
in
particularly
the
the
Knox
emissions,
so
you
can
see
for
a
Euro
four.
The
limit
is
0.25
grams
per
kilometer
for
a
Euro
4
vehicle,
whereas
for
a
Euro
six,
it's
point.
Zero
eight
grams
to
achieve
better
performance
than
was
originally
specified
is
probably
quite
a
fine
line
in
there
and
the
Technologies
are
very
different.
So,
for
example,
those
Euro
6
vehicles
have
got
different
emissions
control
that
cannot
possibly
be
met
by
a
Euro
four
bit.
B
B
I
think
it
would
require
quite
a
lot
of
work
to
to
set
that
level.
But
if
that's
what
you
wish
to
instruct
us
to
go
away
and
do
then
we
can
do
so.
B
A
B
I'm,
sorry
that
you
haven't
listened
to
a
lot
of
me
this
evening,
but
okay,
the
can
I
draw
your.
B
Page
17,
please
in
in
the
pack,
because
I
think
a
picture
paints
a
thousand
words.
So
at
the
top
there
you
have
the
side
loading
vehicle.
This
is
a
euro
seven
type
vehicle.
So
it's
not
a
London
Hackney
Carriage
one,
but
it's
compliant
with
all
those
regulations
and,
as
you
can
see,
it's
a
converted
minibus.
B
B
B
So
the
bottom
vehicle,
the
white
vehicle
which
you
can
see
is
badged
up
as
a
taxi.
There
is
the
type
of
vehicle
that
is
commonly
licensed
across
many
boroughs
and
District
councils
in
the
UK
notice,
please
that
it
is
a
relatively
short
vehicle,
so
the
capacity
of
that
vehicle
is
a
four-seater
vehicle.
B
Now,
at
the
moment,
our
policy
specifies
that
the
vehicles
for
Hackney
courage-
you
should
be
five
seaters
and
in
the
vehicle
at
the
top-
that
is
accomplished
by
having
three
rows
of
seats,
there's
a
large
space
in
the
middle,
which
is
where
the
wheelchair
would
go.
And
then
you
have
two
seats
which
you
can
just
see,
one
in
the
picture
there
that
tip
down
from
the
bulkhead
and
face
towards
the
rear
of
the
vehicle.
B
So
if
you
were
to
put
a
wheelchair
in
there,
you
would
not
have
a
five
seat
capacity
vehicle.
You
might
get
a
couple
of
other
people
in
there
if
you
will,
but
that
is
a
five
seats.
The
one
at
the
bottom
is
four
seats,
because
the
passenger
go
the
wheelchair
passenger.
It
goes
in
the
back
of
the
vehicle,
so
there
are
three
seats
across
and
it
is
in
many
ways
similar
to
your
normal
domestic
vehicle
that
the
majority
of
you
will
drive.
So
there
isn't
a
large
space
when
you
enter
the
vehicle.
B
It
is
a
bench
seat
with
three
seats
on
it:
a
relatively
narrow
space
where
you
go
through
the
vehicle.
If
they
are
present,
a
wheelchair
is
placed
into
the
rear
of
the
vehicle
so
depending
on
the
conversion.
Most
of
these
will
load
a
rear
loading
vehicle
with
those
seats
in
place
some
of
the
requirements
we
tip
for
it,
but
most
of
them
will
just
fit
in
the
back,
and
that
is
a
four-seater
vehicle.
B
B
B
It
is
slightly
safer
in
an
accident
because,
obviously
it's
physically
a
bigger
vehicle
and
Pete
has
raised
the
issue
of
safety
with
these
vehicles,
because
obviously
there
is
a
risk
here.
Most
accidents
involve
a
vehicle
hitting
the
rear
into
the
rear
of
another
one,
and
obviously
the
perceived
risk
to
the
rear
passenger
here
is
is
that
the
rear
door
becomes
damaged
and
inoperable,
and
it
is
difficult
to
extract
the
wheelchair
passenger,
whereas
in
the
current
side
loading
vehicle,
if
the
rear
of
the
vehicle
is
impacted,
the
side
doors
remain
accessible.
E
B
Equally,
You
could
argue
that
if
there's
a
T-bone
type
accident
where
the
vehicle
hits
the
side
of
the
other,
then
the
door
is
damaged
and
getting
people
out
is
difficult.
Now,
for
those
of
you
who
haven't
seen
the
fire
service,
take
the
roof
off
a
vehicle-
it's
not
very
pretty,
but
it
is
pretty
effective.
B
So
you
know,
and
saving
life
and
protecting
life
is
far
more
important
than
the
condition
of
the
vehicle
at
the
end
of
the
process.
But
is
there
a
safety
issue
here?
Yes,
there
is
a
slight
safety
issue
here,
I'm
not
going
to
pretend
otherwise
have
we
risk
assessed
it.
No,
not
going
to
pretend
to
you
that
we've
done
a
specific
risk
assessment
of
this
have
other
authorities
in
license
these
several
thousands
of
them
across
the
country.
Yes,
so
am
I
concerned
about
it
as
a
risk.
B
No
not
particularly,
but
is
it
as
safe
as
the
current
vehicles.
I
would
probably
say:
no
we'll
be
completely
honest
with
you
on
this
effect.
There
is
also
the
issue
that,
whereas
in
the
side
loading
vehicle
you
load
off
the
pavement
in
a
rear
loading,
you
load
onto
or
off
the
road
that
is
obviously
not
as
safe
as
loading
from
the
pavement.
B
C
B
B
There
is
yes,
those
of
you
who
have
used
the
station
rank
will
know
that
there
is
actually
quite
a
high
elevated,
curb
there
to
stop
Vehicles
maintain
the
curb,
not
that
I
think
we've
ever
that's
ever
happened,
but
anyway,
if
we
were
to
license
reloading
Vehicles,
then
we
would
need
to
drop
that
curb
and
we
would
need
to
mark
up
a
clear
area
at
the
front
of
the
rank
to
allow
additional
space
behind
that
lead
vehicle
to
give
the
space
to
deploy
the
ramp
and
then
the
space
for
the
wheelchair
passenger
to
come
out
and
go
up
into
the
right
into
the
ramp
space.
B
And
I
have
spoken
to
several
of
the
adapters
of
these
vehicles.
Some
of
you
may
have
had
experience
of
these
vehicles.
They
are
commonly
used
by
disabled
people
other
than
in
Hackney
carrots
thing.
So
there's
quite
a
number
of
operators
of
operators
of
companies
already
undertake
these
conversions
either
as
private
domestic
vehicles,
but
it's
not
a
great
step
forward
to
convert
them
into
Hackney
carriages.
B
B
The
purpose
of
suggesting
this
is
twofold:
one
is
to
increase
the
availability
of
vehicles,
because
suddenly
you
get
both
sorts
of
vehicles
that
are
available
and,
secondly,
to
improve
the
price
that
these
are
available
at
to
bring
into
the
trade
Peter
is
his
voice
is
well
made
about
the
number
of
Hackney
Carriage
vehicles,
but
part
of
the
problem
is:
is
the
cost
of
entry
into
the
profession
you
can
enter
into
the
private.
B
B
B
Now
again,
they
are
not
available
in
an
electrified
form
at
this
point
in
time,
but
they
will
be
now
there's
some
challenges
here,
as
you
can
see
from
the
back
of
the
vehicle
in
on
page
17.
One
of
the
issues
is
is
that
quite
often
the
access
is
through
the
rear,
bumper
and
the
back
of
the
vehicle
folds
down
to
form
part
of
the
ramp.
B
Do
I
know
whether
those
Vehicles
will
be
suitable,
I,
there's
none
on
the
market
at
the
moment,
I
can't
tell
you,
but
what
I
can
tell
you
is
is
that
it
would
be
Euro
6
compliant,
which
is
currently
is
because
it
gets
with
an
internal
combustion
engine.
So
I
think
there's
two
questions
for
you
to
answer
here.
Firstly,
is:
do
you
do
we,
as
an
authority,
wish
to
go
down
the
rear
loading
vehicle
route?
B
A
Thank
you,
Robert
can
I
just
ask
you
a
very
quick
question
to
start
the
Bold
value
if
we
were,
if
we
were
to
decline
to
accept
this
recommendation,
what
what
do
you
think?
What
exactly
would
be
the
impact
on
the
on
the
service
which
we
are
able
to
offer
the
public
in
this
ward?
In
this.
B
I
think
as
as
Peter's
has
quite
eloquently
set
out,
the
Hackney
Carriage
Trade
is
in
a
difficult
place
at
this
point
in
time
they
have
the
driver
age
profile.
It's
it's
very
skewed
towards
the
old
rage
bands.
The
vehicle
age
bands
are
very
skewed
towards
the
older
vehicles
and
we
need
to
give
drivers
some
scoop
to
obtain
some
more
cost-effective
vehicles.
B
The
reason
it
isn't
in
this
paper
at
this
point
in
time
is
it's
a
substantial
investment
I
think
there
are
some
moral
and
ethical
issues
about
whether
we
support
bits
of
small
business
within
the
town,
but
don't
support
others
so
I.
You
know
I'm
asking
not
asking
that
question
off
you
today,
but
again,
that's
something
that
we
probably
will
need
to
look
at
moving
forward,
but
we
need
something
sooner
than
that.
If
that
makes
sense.
L
Outside
loading
vehicles,
are
they
petrol
cars?
No,
they
are
almost
universally
okay.
L
Okay,
so
just
listening
to
what
you've
said
if
we
approve
these
vehicles,
we're
proving
it
for
the
next
12
years
and
that's
a
diesel
one
and
I,
don't
think
it's
fitting
in
with
our
climate
change,
emergency
policies.
B
Obviously
we
can
change
the
policy
any
year
we
like
so,
but
all
I'm
saying
is-
is
that
in
the
normal
run
of
things
as
we
stand
at
the
point
of
time,
those
Vehicles
would
be
on
the
fleet
for
12
years
and
I.
Think
that
you
know
we
would
it
with.
Is
the
trade
needs
to
have
a
defined
period
that
they
can
spread
their
cost
over?
So
they
would
want
to
know
yeah
if
they
license
the
vehicle.
L
B
It
is
a
political
decision,
as
a
man
who
works
very
closely
with
the
trade
I
would
urge
you
not
to
do
that
sort
of
thing,
because
that's
a
level
of
you
know
we.
We
control
this.
These
gentleman,
ladies
far
more
than
we
control
any
other
business
within
the
tank,
yeah
and
I,
think
we
need
to
be
fair
to
them
as
businesses
to
allow
them
to
do
their
financial
planning
and
to
invest.
You
know
effectively.
They
have
to
pay
off
the
vehicle.
B
L
Completely
agree
with
you
on
that
and
that's
why
I
raised
the
point,
because
I
think
it
is
a
bit
risky
so
for
me
personally,
I'd
rather
say
no
to
the
reloading
and
then
extend
the
site
load
in
by
another
two
years
so
up
to
the
14
years.
L
F
I
don't
mind
if
they've
got
a
via
entry
vehicle
as
well
as
a
side
one,
but
I
would
go
for
the
slightly
larger,
more
seats.
One.
Another
thing
is
on
an
probably
going
off
the
point
where
you
mentioned
about
diesel
vehicles.
That
was
something
I
saw,
I
watched,
strange
documentaries
where
people
were
converting
taxis
to
use
a
fish
and
chip
shop
or
basically,
and
they
did
something
to
the
system
where
it
made
it
less
pollute
less
pollution
in
the
air
than
a
diesel
vehicle
and
the
the
taxi
drivers
up.
F
There
have
done
that.
This
was
about
four
or
five
years
ago.
So
there's
always
other
opportunities.
We
can
look
at
for
the
current
Vehicles
as
well,
and
also
I
want
to
make
this
flexible,
as
I
said,
because
it's
going
to
be
cheaper
for
them
to
buy
these
vehicles
plus,
as
I
said,
they've
got
other
things
in
their
life.
They
need
to
sort
of
cover
costs
Etc.
So
that's
that's
what
I
wanted
to
say
really
thank
you.
D
There
is
also
the
risk
if
that
car
stops
suddenly.
So
there
is
what
are
the
provisions
really
made
for
all
that.
B
B
So
it's
not
significantly
different
to
the
types
of
restraints
that
are
used
in
the
side
loading
vehicle
which
again
require
the
passenger
to
be
strapped
in
and
the
and
the
seat
to
be
strapped
in
as
well
in
the
rear
loading
in
the
side,
loading
vehicle,
it's
possible
to
load
the
vehicle,
the
passenger
facing
backwards,
but
again
effectively,
passengers
are
always
restrained
in
a
safe
manner.
There's
no
I,
don't
I,
don't
think
from
a
passenger
restraint
point
of
view.
M
Thank
you,
chair
I
have
the
feeling
that
I
need
a
bit
more
research
here.
I've
got
more
information.
We've
got
a
really
good
cohort
of
at
your
Carriage
drivers.
We
know
them.
They're,
good
they've
got
good
vehicles
and
obviously
to
not
allow
the
rear.
Loaders
will
be
an
encouragement
to
them.
They
get
on
with
a
really
good
job,
but
they
are
diminishing
creature
in
Basingstoke
and
so
we're
trying
to
increase
the
number
in
your
experience
and
what
you
know
of
the
market.
How
likely.
M
Is
it
that
by
introducing
the
rear
loaders,
we
would
be
actually
attracting
new
Hackney
Carriage
drivers
to
Basingstoke,
or
is
there
something
else
here,
that's
causing
it
or
to
diminish?
From
my
point
of
view,
I
think
it's
because
they
don't
use
apps.
You
know
if
people
like
to
know
that
there's
a
vehicle
for
them
where
they
want
it
not
just
coming
out
of
the
station,
but
when
they
finished
a
meal
or
something.
So
in
your
experience,
do
you
think
that
by
introducing
these
rear
loaders,
it
really
would
attract
new
drivers
to
Basingstoke.
B
I
think
that
the
bar
II
entry
within
the
basing
Stoke
trade
is
is
predominantly
the
vehicle,
whilst
I
can't
make
people
become
highly
Carriage
drivers.
Traditionally
we
had
people
who
moved
over
from
private
hire.
I
think
that
if
we
were
to
reduce
the
capital
investment
required
to
enter
the
trade,
we
may
we
may
develop
a
more
flexible
and
different
style
of
trade
to
what
we
have
at
the
moment.
At
the
moment,
the
Hackney
Carriage
Trade
is
solely
based
out
the
train
station
and
there
is
no
significant
competition
between
the
Hackney
Carriage
Trade
out.
C
B
B
My
personal
preference
would
be
to
get
some
people
in
into
the
Hackney
Carriage
Trade,
who
would
like
to
offer
some
competition
for
the
nighttime
economy
and
to
use
some
of
those
other
ranks,
because
people
don't
see
vehicles
on
those
ranks,
they
don't
consider
them
as
an
option.
They
may
be
prepared
to
walk
up
to
the
station,
particularly
if
they're
at
that
entertained
and
take
a
a
cab
home
but
you're
right.
B
There
is
a
technological
difference
here
and
the
the
direction
of
travel
within
the
industry
is
towards
app-based
private
hire
provision
and
away
from
black
cap
behind
the
carriage
use,
because
that's
how
people
choose
to
interact
with
it
now
I'm,
not
aware
of
anybody
who
uses
apps
for
black
cabs,
if
you
like,
they
can
be
booked
through
private
hire,
apps
yeah,
but
black
cabs
tend
to
be
on
the
whole
small
single
business,
so
you'll
operate.
Your
business
is
I,
know
that
we
have.
B
We
have
Louis
at
the
back
there
who
operates
I,
think
it's
four
vehicles
on
the
rank,
but
that's
the
exception
rather
than
the
role.
B
But
yes,
I
think
there
are
some
technological
challenges
to
how
the
traditional
Hackney,
Carriage
business
model
has
worked
and
yeah
I
think
that's.
The
nature
of
the
trade
within
Basingstoke
has
also
moved
against.
That.
M
So
could
I
just
ask
about
that,
because
I
looked
online
and
there
are
some
some
towns
in
cities
that
do
have
apps.
So
obviously
that
involves
you've
got
to
join
together
as
a
unit
and
that's
always
difficult,
because
these
are
all
people
who
run
their
own
businesses
and
I
know.
That's
that's
not
easy,
but
you
can
do
it.
I
mean
all
I
know
is
if
I've
had
a
meal
at
gabardines
and
I
know
that
the
end
of
my
meal
I
can
stroll
up
to
caston's
yard
and
get
a
taxi.
M
Then
I'll
do
that,
rather
than
call
a
private
hire
any
day
of
the
week,
because
I
prefer
the
happiness
and
there
are
apps.
That
would
allow
you
to
do
that.
So,
but
you,
but
you
think
that
if
we
can
attract
new
Factory
drivers
in
it
will
open
up
these
other
ranks
again
and
we'll
be
able
to
wander
around
off
at
the
end
of
an
evening
and
find
a
taxi
to
hail
or
to
get
in.
B
B
That's
the
that's
the
nature
of
the
trade,
you
know,
and
there
is
no
move
into
the
nighttime
economy
such
as
you
may
find
in
some
of
the
other
cities
where
you
know
there
are
ranks
of
vehicles
away
from
away
from
the
train
station.
Yeah
there's
no
doubt
that
will
be
a
big
shift
in
how
the
trade
operates
with
an
amazing
Stoke.
At
this
point
in
time,
would
I
like
to
see
that
shift.
Yes,
I
would
like
to
see
that
shift.
Can
I
force
the
trade
to
do
that.
B
No
I
can't
do
I
think
that
cheaper
vehicles
coming
onto
the
trade
May
encourage
people
who
to
to
come
in
who
aren't
currently
at
the
carriage
operators
or
businesses,
which
may
take
a
more
flexible
approach
to
you
know
they
may
see
a
business
opportunity
elsewhere
that
that
would
be.
That
would
be
great,
but
I
can't
I
can't
handle
heart
guarantee.
That
would
happen.
Counselor.
F
I
And
Peter
did
mention
that
that
the
parliament
were
looking
at
the
rear
voting
vehicles
and
there's
been
some
concern
expressed
I'm
just
concerned.
Obviously,
things
have
changed
recently
on
smart
motorways,
for
example.
So
this
special
money
improving
them,
then,
obviously,
whatever
we
decide
today,
if
Government
decide
to
do
something
different
and
that
may
affect
where
we're
going.
However,
I
know
that
people
like
age
concern,
for
example,
have
low
reloading
vehicles
and
put
their
their.
I
You
know:
passengers
they're,
very
precious
passengers
in
the
back
of
these
vehicles
and
they're
quite
happy
to
take
them
from
the
lunch
Club
out
into
tadley
and
whatever
so
obviously,
there's
always
a
balance.
Isn't
there
between
the
risks
of
of
what
you're
doing
in
the
outside
world
and
these
people,
who
are
obviously
running
a
business
rather
than
a
private,
a
private
hire
or
a
charity
or
whatever,
and
so
do
you
think
that
the
government
are
going
to
change
the
rules.
B
Any
pressure
to
to
to
to
remove
this,
stop
these
vehicles
being
converted,
they're,
all
conversions,
yeah
and
they're
all
conversions
of
existing
Vehicles,
so
they
have
to
meet
a
certain
level
of
Crash
resistance,
yeah
that
that's
the
nature
of
the
Beast.
If
you
like,
we
don't
the
Hackney
Carriage
vehicles
must
meet
the
same
standards
that
an
ordinary
vehicle
has
so
do.
I
think
this
is
going
to
this
type
of
vehicle
is
going
to
be
outlawed
or
cut
off,
no
I,
don't
think
it
will
do.
B
You
know
I'm
happy
to
tackle
the
issue
that
Pete
raised.
If
are
they
as
safe?
Probably
not,
but
are
they
dangerous?
No
I,
don't
think
they're
dangerous.
H
You
well
two
things
Catch
22
here,
really,
because
what
we're
looking
for
is
obviously
what
happening
happens,
canceled
here
so
trying
to
find
a
way
around.
There's
two
things:
I,
don't
like
the
what's.
The
four-seater
and
I
think
yeah.
It's
really
doesn't
do
a
lot
for
the
town,
in
my
view,
but
perhaps
that's
just
me
as
an
individual
I,
wouldn't
like
to
see
that
on
our
ranks
we've
tried
to
keep
the
black
cabs
for
the
years.
H
H
As
for
Hackney
carriages,
perhaps
we
should
be
looking
at
Parts
in
tried
myself
up
the
train
station
for
a
reason,
as
you
said,
that's
where
the
customers
are
when
the
top
of
the
town
was
actually
buzzing,
which
it
doesn't
do
now.
As
we
all
know,
it's
not
that
there's
no
traffic
going
through
there,
so
they
couldn't
pick
up
anything.
Perhaps
we
should
be
looking
at
allowing
black
cabs
for
on
our
way
back
to
the
ranks,
so
people
will
flag
them
down
like
they
do
in
London.
That's
part
of
the
problem
we
got
in
this
town.
H
You
either
go
to
a
station
which
is
the
train
station
to
get
your
black
cab
or
your
phone
up
or
apology,
app
and
whatever
and
get
a
private
holiday.
We
don't
actually
flag
very
few
people
Flack
down
the
like
happen,
there's
something
as
a
council.
We
should
be
looking
at
a
number
of
years
ago
we
looked
at
the
different
places
for
them
to
park
up,
so
they
can
get
a
trade.
It
didn't
work,
let's
be
honest,
I
think
they'll
agree
with
that.
H
It's
just
a
waste
of
parking
space
as
far
as
I'm
concerned,
it'd
be
good
for
for
the
public,
but
I
wonder
whether
we
could
actually,
as
a
council,
look
at
opening
up
some
of
the
rows.
We've
done
it
in
the
past,
where
we've
closed
roads
down
and
allowed
originally
black
cabs,
I'm
thinking
this
drop
line
at
least
not
live.
H
When
that
was
first
closed
down
a
number
of
years
ago,
it
was
only
black
cows
and
we
opened
it
into
private
high
because
it
made
sense
kept
the
fares
down
they're
the
sort
of
things
we
should
be
looking
at
trying
to
help
the
trade
disappear.
We
can't
subsidize
it
and
get
some
money
back
of
them,
but
at
this
moment
it's
our
money's
short
everywhere,
but
they're
they're.
The
issues
I
think
we
should
be
looking
at
and
why
isn't
it
working
while
the
youngsters
coming
in?
Are
they
earning
money
elsewhere
or
is
it?
A
I
think
can
I
just
make
a
comment.
I
think
we
need
we
need
to
to.
We
need.
We
mustn't
run
away
from
the
fact
that
we're
simply
discussing
at
the
moment
the
licensing
of
rear
loading,
acne
carriages,
more
General
aspects
if
you've
got
to
come
at
a
later
point.
F
H
Sent
it
right?
Sorry,
that's
not
that's
not
what
we're
talking
about
we're
talking
about
low
Reloaders,
because
of
why
the
Hackney
service
isn't
working
for
them
or
for
the
public.
That's
what
I
understood
what
it's
here
for?
It's,
not
the
matter
of
anything
else,
we're
trying
to
make
a
trade
work,
so
the
public
can
get
transport
fair
enough.
Yeah.
B
C
B
I
I
would
very
much
agree
with
councilor
Jones
here.
I
think
the
the
issue
here
is:
what
can
we
do
as
a
as
a
licensing
authority
to
ensure
that
the
Hackney
Carriage
Trade
within
the
borough
can
be
sustainable
and
can
make
a
living
moving
forward
and
to
provide
a
service
to
our
residents,
which
I
think
is,
is
the
key
Point?
B
If
there
was
a
plethora
of
reasonably
priced
Vehicles
out
there
readily
available
from
the
trade
to
use?
We
wouldn't
be
having
this
discussion
we're
having
this
discussion,
because
there
is
a
shortage
of
vehicles,
full
stop
and
those
vehicles
that
are
available
are
expensive.
B
Now,
I
understand
the
trades
view
that
you
know
we
could
expend
the
life
of
the
current
vehicles
and
in
a
couple
of
years
time
there
may
be
more
availability
of
of
different
vehicles.
I,
don't
think.
That's
an
unreasonable
argument.
B
I
think
that
there
is.
There
are
issues
as
I've
stated
before
about
the
old
Vehicles
there,
both
their
emissions
and
their
safety.
There
are
compromises
here.
Whichever
way
we
go,
there
is
no
perfect
solution
to
this.
B
B
B
How
we
can
track
both
new
entrants
into
the
trade
and
perhaps
to
look
to
modify,
how
the
trade-off
rates
based
on
some
of
those
new
entries,
there's
no
right
or
wrong
answer
here,
there's
just
different
things
that
we
can
do.
A
L
A
B
Just
just
can
I
seek
some
clarification
from
councilor
Edwards,
so
at
the
moment
we've
and
I'm
sure
Ellie
will
just
correctly
as
well.
At
the
moment,
we
have,
as
a
as
a
body
voted
to
approve
the
increase
in
the
age
of
which
vehicles
maintain
to
the
fleet
from
three
years
to
six,
but
there
has
been
no
vote
on
the
actual
overall
age
of
which
vehicles
can
remain
within
the
we're
still
licensed.
A
A
A
N
Thank
you.
So
sorry,
I
have
sat
fairly
silently
just
listening
to
the
comments
this
evening.
I
think
a
couple
of
things
just
picking
up
what
Rob
said.
This
is
an
ongoing
dialogue
that
we
have.
What
every
couple
of
weeks
around
this
particular
issue.
N
I,
am
concerned
around
the
message
it
may
give
out
in
terms
of
the
commitment
that
we
have
made
around
our
Ambitions
in
terms
of
being
carbon
neutral.
We
obviously
the
committee
has
made
one
decision
already
around
the
three
to
six
years
to
try
and
help
with
this
situation
we
face
at
the
moment.
N
I
almost
feel
that
there's
obviously
concern
around
reloading
vehicles,
but
perhaps
a
sensible
option
might
be
to
postpone
any
decision
around
rear,
loaders
and
the
12
to
14
years
extension,
because
again,
you're
making
quite
a
big
decision
this
evening,
one
way
or
the
other
on
both
of
those
items
so
I
might
suggest.
We
should
postpone
that
and
bring
that
back
to
a
later
committee
to
really
understand
the
implications
of
either
decision
that
we
make.
But
I
am
concerned
around
the
12
to
14
years
and
the
contradictory
statement
that
might
send
out.
M
Thank
you.
Actually,
that
just
makes
sense
to
me.
I
just
feel
I,
don't
know
enough.
I
really
do
I
think
we're
making
decisions
with
big
implications
here
so
I
I.
Are
we
not
revising
anywhere
we're
rewriting
our
Hackney
carriage
policy
anyway,
later
this
month?
Aren't
we
later
this
year,
so
we've
we've
got
to
visit
all
this
again
anyway,
very
soon,
and
as
far
as
the
rear
load
is
concerned,
I
mean
I'm
not
so
concerned
about
safety,
not
that
I'm
not
concerned
about
safety,
but
it's
always
a
matter
of
degree.
M
I
mean
if
we
don't
want
any
pilots
on
the
motorway.
We
can
reduce
the
speed
limit
to
30.
That
would
that
would
solve
that
one,
but
nobody
wants
to
do
they
so
so
I'm
not
so
concerned
about
that,
although
obviously
I
want
people
to
be
safe,
but
I
need
to
know
what
the
implications
are
going
to
be
to
the
trade.
If
we
do
introduce
these
new
style
Vehicles,
is
it
going
to
boost
them
or
is
it
not?
M
Do
we
need
more
stacked
up
outside
the
station
or
have
we
got
enough
serving
the
railway
station
you
know
is?
Is
it
going
to
give
a
big
boost
to
the
Hackney
trade,
or
is
it
actually
not
going
to
help
at
all
just
make
it
more
difficult
for
guys?
We've
already
got
I,
don't
know,
and
I
just
need
to
know
a
bit
more,
so
I'm
feeling
very
reluctant
to
make
any
decisions
tonight,
because
I
need
to
know
more
basically
yeah
what.
A
L
H
H
H
If
I'm,
honest
I,
don't
like
the
postponing
this
stuff,
I,
really
don't
as
a
committee,
but
I
think
we're
sort
of
talking
in
circles
in
the
funny
sort
of
way,
we're
all
trying
to
square
the
circle
and
say
well,
we
want
something
good,
but
what
I
don't
think
we
know
what,
if
I'm
honest
with,
which
way
we're
going,
and
perhaps
we
also
have
a
designated
meeting
on
this
one
issue
rather
than
anything
else
or
even
perhaps
have
some
a
meeting.
That's
not
a
committee
meeting
just
to
discuss
the
issues
and
then
have
our
meeting.
H
H
We
just
want
to
know
where
they're
coming
from
and
then
we
as
a
group
of
people
who
make
that
decision,
because
it's
not
just
about
taxes,
it's
about
the
ego,
the
pollution
and
everything
else,
but
where
what
we
can
afford
what
we
can't
afford,
because
my
theory
is
if
we
carry
on
like
this,
we'll
end
up
with
no
trade
at
all,
but
it
will
be
private,
and
that
is
my
fear.
Thank
you.
G
A
L
From
listening
to
councilor,
James
and
counselor
Harvey
can
I
now
amend
the
proposal.
Just
it's
right.
We
are.
We
are
going
around
and
circles
because
we're
trying
to
do
what's
right,
but
it's
quite
difficult
to
make
a
decision
when
I
can
only
hear
it
for
four
minutes
so
I
propose.
Then
we
postpone
the
decision
on
rear
loading
vehicles
and
that's
it.
A
K
So
the
only
bit
missing
from
the
work
program
on
the
agenda
obviously
is
the
review
of
the
taxi
policy,
which
will
now
be
slotted
in
for
November,
and
we
will
have
a
look
at
putting
in
a
meeting
in
so
more
clarity
can
be
achieved
before
that
date.
Yeah.
A
Okay,
everybody
happy
with
the
word
Prime
program
has
laid
out
in
item
six
agreed.
Thank
you
very
much
item.
Seven
doesn't
apply,
icma
doesn't
apply
so
the
meeting
is
is
now
finished.
Can
I
just
thank
the
portfolio
holder
for
turning
out
because
it's
always
very
beneficial,
I
think
at
least
committee
meetings?
If
we
have
had
the
portfolio
holder
present
in
order
that
the
committee
can
ask
questions
if
they
wish.