►
Description
Co-ordinating O&S Committee - 24/09/2021 - 1000 hours - BMI Main Hall
Link to Agenda Papers and Documents:-
https://birmingham.cmis.uk.com/birmingham/Meetings/tabid/70/ctl/ViewMeetingPublic/mid/397/Meeting/12480/Committee/406/Default.aspx
A
This
is
a
hybrid
meeting,
the
first
one
that
I've
chaired
given
what
happened
at
the
city
council
earlier
this
month
when
somebody
tested
it
for
kobe
19.
So
some
counsellors
are
with
me
today
and
welcome
and
some
are
online
and
I
hope
you
will
bear
with
me
if
you
want
to
ask
a
question:
those
that
are
online.
I
think
you're
gonna
think
emma
and
she
will
tell
me
and
then
I
will
call
you
in
yes.
B
Thanks
carl,
I
I
think
it
is
quite
important
after
last
week
I
spoke
at
another
council
shortly
after
that
meeting.
They
were
concerned
because,
obviously
I'm
aware
that
contacts
were
declared
so
just
grabbed
one
of
them
they
had
to
do
it,
then
so
that
I
have
taken
a
pcr
test
since
that
meeting
and
I
have
been
found
to
be
negative
and
I
did
a
lateral
flow
last
night
and
that
was
negative
as
well.
So
you
can.
A
A
Just
a
background
to
the
information
it
was
started
last
year,
following
discussions
with
the
previous
housing
cabinet
member
councillor,
sharon
thompson
and
we've
taken
evidence
from
between
80
and
100.
It
keeps
on
increasing
because
we're
still
getting
people
writing
in
now
from
residence
groups
and
of
all
the
the
inquiries
that
I've
been
involved
in
and
I've
been
on
scrutiny
since
its
inception.
A
This
has
been
the
the
most
popular
in
terms
of
numbers
of
submissions
from
local
residents,
so
we've
clearly
captured
the
mood
of
local
people
here
in
birmingham
we've
seen
such
a
tremendous
rise
in
the
number
of
exempt
accommodation
around
the
around
the
city,
and
it's
that
impact
on
local
residents
and
other
communities.
That's
been
our
chief
focus.
There
are,
of
course,
other
elements
to
it,
not
least
hardly
support
vulnerable
people
living
in
exempt
accommodation
who
clearly,
in
some
cases
in
a
lot
of
cases,
aren't
getting
support
that
they
clearly
need.
A
So
today's
meeting
is
it's
basically
to
put
those
concerns
of
local
people
to
key
officers
and
to
test
some
of
the
beliefs
and
assumptions
that
officers
and
cabinet
members
have
made
as
to
why
we
have
reached
this
situation,
and
just
people
have
asked
why
coordinating
and
not
housing.
It's
because,
as
you
can
see
from
today's
meeting,
we've
got
planning,
we've
got
housing
benefit,
we've
got
housing
itself,
all
of
which
report
two
different
scrutiny
committees,
so
we've
got
chord
and
nothing
is
the
best
one
to
pull
this
evidence.
A
A
So
you
know
we
understand
that
it's
a
long
meeting,
so
we
will
need
a
break.
Okay,
that's
it
from
me.
I
would
now
like
to
welcome
councillor
shabrana
hussain,
a
cabinet
member
for
housing
and
homes
and
julie
griffin,
managing
director
for
city
housing
is
going
to
do
a
brief
introduction
from
their
perspective.
So
over
to
you
too,.
C
Thank
you
chair.
I
just
want
to
just
highlight
that
I
am
joining
hybrid,
I'm
not
obviously
in
the
room
with
you
girl,
but
right
so
good
morning.
Everybody
and
I'll
be
very
brief,
like
he
said,
and
although
you
know
I'm
very
new
at
this
portfolio
and
I'm
really
passionate
about
the
issues
that
around
exempt
accommodation
around
the
city
and
the
impact
for
some
residents
also
have
a
good
value
of
good
quality
and
accommodation
of
this
type.
Some
are
most
of
our
vulnerable
in
the
city
immediately.
C
Briefly
and
I
do
welcome
the
scrutiny
review,
work
and
I
want
to
thank
everyone
involved-
the
the
residents
who
are
played
a
part
in
finding
feeding
in
their
views
and
ideas,
and
we
will
continue
working
with
the
groups
across
the
city
and
I'll
take
forward
any
recommendations
coming
up
this
group
new
review.
Thank
you.
D
We
will
deal
with
the
exempt
accommodation,
moving
forward
corporately
and
from
a
partnership
approach.
You'll
also
see
today
about
how
our
pilot
and
that
multi-agency
approach
that's
been
taken
across
community
safety,
adult
social
care,
housing
and
benefits
is
actually
having
some
significant
impact
on
and
the
way
that
we
actually
deal
with
poor
landlords.
I
must
stress
that
there
is
a
number
of
absolutely
excellent
exempt
providers
out
there
that
provide
much
needed
accommodation
for
vulnerable
households.
D
However,
what
we
want
to
do
is
to
make
sure
that
we
drive
standards
up
and
that
we
ensure
that
those
that
are
not
actually
providing
good
quality
accommodation
and
the
support
that's
required
that
we
actually
and
use
our
enforcement
powers
where
we
possibly
can
and
try
to
drive
those
up.
I'm
also
really
keen
to
to
continue
our
work
and
we're
very
committed
to
to
our
work
with
our
residence
group.
We've
had
a
number
of
meetings
with
the
residents
and
that's
really
working
well
and
we're
going
to
continue
to
do
that.
D
A
Okay,
thank
you
very
much.
That's
echoing
the
committee's
views.
We
want
to
tackle
this
problem
with
to
see
what
powers
we've
got,
whether
we're
using
them
see
what
other
powers
we
need
and
to
to
create
a
series
of
recommendations
both
locally
and
nationally.
That
will
begin
to
improve
the
standard
of
the
accommodation,
as
you
say,
improve
the
standard
of
support
for
some
of
those
people
who
aren't
getting
needed
at
the
moment.
So.
A
Thank
you
very
much
indeed,
I'd
now
like
to
welcome
calvin
nicoley
who's,
the
service
lead
to
look
at
the
background
in
context
for
why
we've
had
such
an
explosion
in
birmingham
and
you've
got
five
or
six
slides
and
you've
been
allocated.
15
minutes
carl
vinda,
so
your
tax
is
to
keep
within
that
that
time
scale
so
over
to
you.
E
I
I
will
do
my
level
best
counselor.
Thank
you
very
much.
What
I'm
also
going
to
do
is
I
I
I
may
have
to
switch
my
camera
off,
I'm
just
a
bit
worried
about
being
dropped
off
the
the
call
mid
presentation,
if
that's
okay
with
everybody
right.
So
what
I
wanted
to
do
is
just
to
kind
of
kick
off
with
a
bit
of
background
a
bit
of
intro,
but
also
give
you
some
kind
of
initial
findings
from
our
needs
assessment
work
that
is
currently
in
progress.
E
E
In
some
instances
this
is
commissioned
by
the
local
authority,
so
some
old
proportion
is
also
funded
through
the
voluntary
sector,
but
our
recent
provider
survey
returns
indicates
that
a
significant
proportion
of
the
support
is
funded
is
through
self-funding
by
individuals,
I.e
their
personal
income
and
where
support
has
been
commissioned,
the
pro
the
provision
is
referred
to
as
commissions
boarded
housing
and
where
it's
not.
It's
referred
to
as
non-uh
supported
housing
and
as
as
we
all
know,
the
sector
in
the
city
comprises
of
both
next
slide.
Please.
E
Brilliant
thank
you.
So
we're
often
asked
the
question
why
such
a
growth
has
occurred
in
the
way
that
it
has
there's
a
number
of
related
contributing
factors
to
this,
and
what
we
will
be
doing
is
elaborating
upon
these
as
we
work
through
the
various
presentations
from
colleagues,
but
I
just
want
to
highlight
the
main
things
here.
E
A
E
All
right,
I'm
just
gonna,
have
to
call
up
my
own
slides,
because
I
can't
I
can't
see
that
now.
So,
if
you
just
bear
with
me,
so
I've
got
something
to
read
off
okay.
So,
as
I
said
this,
coupled
with
the
reduction
in
regulatory
powers,
resources
and
agencies
has
arguably
led
to
the
residual
sector
being
left
to
explore
how
best
to
meet
the
the
demand
that
was
there
and
the
demand.
E
It's
important
to
note
here
that,
therefore,
the
local
authority
has
no
control
over
this
and
there's
a
large
private
sector
in
birmingham
and
its
stockpile
lends
itself
very
easily
to
house
conversions.
We've
also
got
structural
issues
within
the
housing
sector
in
the
city,
particularly
pertaining
to
single
person.
Accommodation,
access
to
social
housing
is
limited.
E
The
local
housing
allowance,
shared
accommodation
rates,
are
low,
rendering
much
of
the
private
sector
inaccessible
to
many
on
low
incomes
and
therefore
the
housing
options
for
low
income.
Single
persons
are
extremely
limited,
pushing
people
into
that
supported
accommodation
as
their
only
option,
and
in
that
space
the
thresholds
of
demonstrating
the
support
need
within
the
hb
regulations
is
very,
very
low.
E
Now
we
also
know
from
our
research
that
birmingham
is
is
an
out
lower
outlier
in
growth
in
terms
of
this
space
to
date,
but
we
are
beginning
to
see
increases
in
other
local
authorities
up
and
down
that
country,
and
we
believe
that
this
trend
currently
is
likely
to
continue.
So
it's
not
just
a
birmingham
issue,
I
take
it.
We've
still
not
got
slides
up,
but
shall
I
keep
going.
E
The
population
projections
and
data
suggests
that
needs
will
grow
for
this
type
of
accommodation,
and
we
we
know
that
the
non-commissioned
exempt
sector
is
the
prominent
type
to
be
able
to
meet
those
needs.
The
the
need
is,
in
the
main,
around
accommodation
with
low-level
support
needs,
but
we
do
know
that
there
are
people
with
greater
levels
of
need
in
that
provision
as
well,
and
93
of
the
provision
is
within
the
oversight
of
the
regulator
for
social
housing,
which
makes
their
regulator
the
primary
regulator
of
provision
of
supported
provision.
E
E
E
Okay,
brilliant,
so
what
what
you
will
have
if
you're
able
to
see
it
is,
is
a
a
set
of
diagrams
which
starts
to
break
up
the
sector
in
terms
of
our
findings
in
terms
of
types
of
provision.
So
what
we've
identified
so
far
is
there
are
21
317
units
in
scope,
an
estimated
of
which
20
000
are
non-commissioned
support,
so
the
19
760
units
equate
to
93
in
scope
provided
by
registered
providers.
E
E
There
have
been
concerns
raised
by
the
national
housing
federation
who
recently
report
changes
to
the
membership
in
response
to
concerns
from
members
they
they
quote.
We
believe
that
some
of
these
providers
of
exempt
accommodation
are
operating
a
for-profit
despite
their
official
not-for-profit
status
and
which
does
not
align
with
the
national
housing
federation
values.
E
E
Now
this
is
important
to
know,
because
if
you
look
at
the
rest
of
the
social
care
system,
there
is
a
means
test
in
terms
of
determining
a
person's
ability
to
pay.
So
this
is
the
only
support
provision
that
doesn't
do
that,
so
there's
there's
an
inequity
there
and
in
terms
of
the
accommodation
itself,
this
is
shared.
Accommodation
and
residents
have
little
or
no
influence
over
who
the
other
occupants
are.
E
So
if
we
move
on
then
to
so,
if,
if
that's
the
situation,
what
what
could
the
alternatives
be?
And
I
think
it's
it's
important
to
note
that
when
weighing
up
the
options
there
are
potential
consequences
and
risks.
So
if
we
continue
as
we
are,
do
nothing,
it
means
it
requires
individuals
to
continue
to
pay
for
their
support
without
means
testing
the
risks
of
vulnerable
individuals
going
into
destitution,
poor
compliance
with
regulatory
standards
and
currently
inadequate
systems
and
safeguards
through
a
lack
of
join
up
between
regulatory
frameworks.
A
Thank
you,
you've
scheduled
to
finish
at
10,
30
calvinda,
and
thank
you
very
much.
I
should
say
that
kelvinder
is
seriously
from
adult
services,
so
that's
another
part
of
the
local
authority.
That's
involved
with
excellent
presentation.
Thank
you
very
much.
We'll
move
rapidly
on
to
look
at
the
housing
perspective
and
we've
gone
behind
chandi
housing,
partnership
manager
and
the
pilot
league
go
over
to
you
guys.
A
A
One
is
around
looking
to
improve
property
and
standard
accommodation
in
birmingham
through
the
roll
out
of
quality
standards,
but
also
establishing
a
multi-disciplinary
team
to
do
some
targeted
inspection
activity
in
the
sector
in
birmingham
two
to
ensure
citizens
are
safeguarded
and
supported,
so
that
they
can
build
their
capacity
and
autonomy.
This
accommodation
and
that
again,
is
linked
to
both
the
charge
of
rights
and
the
quality
standards
which
I'll
talk
about
in
a
bit.
Obviously,
carl's
talked
about.
A
The
pilot
has
allowed
us
to
to
fund
a
resource,
doing
proper
strategic
needs
assessment
and
then
develop
a
a
strategic
plan
supporting
housing
strategy
for
what
the
future
supported
age
should
look
like
in
the
city,
we
included
an
element
around
investigating
organized
criminal
activity
based
on
some
analytical
evidence.
We
had
at
the
start
of
the
process
and
I'll
come
on
to
that
shortly
and
obviously
the
key
thing
you
know
enabling
us
to
sort
of
do
this
intervention
and
oversight
work.
A
It
will
provide
us
with
a
really
good
sort
of
evidence
base
with
our
work
with
with
the
government,
to
evaluate
the
issues
and
inform
that
future
policy
thinking.
So
I'm
not
going
to
go
through
each
of
the
lines
that
they're
quite
busy
slides,
but
I
mean
I
just
wanted
to
pull
out
some
highlights
of
some
of
the
work
that
we've
done
and
I
think
with
the
key
thing.
A
So
as
a
partnership
level,
there's
been
over
350
of
those
cases
that
have
been
going
through
that
process
and-
and
that
has
you
know,
enabled
us
to
share
information
so
whether
we've
inspected
a
property
and
then
an
issue
about
property
conditions.
But
then,
when
we
get
there,
we
find
an
issue
around
the
quality
of
support.
A
We
had
a
provider
event
in
august
and
we
had
over
100
attendees,
representing
a
large
section
of
the
sector,
supporting
that
will
be
rolling
out
a
training
program
for
providers,
which
is
mainly
focused
on
and
providing
them
with
the
tools
they
need
to
be
delivering
consistent
quality
service,
and
that
would
be
around
the
house
benefit
regulations
and
the
requirements.
The
quality
standards
of
the
charter
and
other
areas
around
community
safety
and
how
they
manage
social
media.
A
To
say
the
inspection
team
has
been,
I
think,
very
positively
received
locally
and
we've
had
very
positive
feedback.
We've
been
able
to
provide
a
resource
to
go
and
undertake
on-the-ground
inspections,
which
we've
previously
weren't
able
to
do,
and
that
has
given
us
a
lot
of
learning
that
we've
been
able
to
feed
back
through
our
regular
returns
to.
I
would
call
them
nhclg
still
and
I've
gone
on
to
the
work.
A
A
The
pilot
allowed
us
to
build
on
some
work
that
we
were
doing
within
the
homeless
transition
team
to
to
focus
solely
on
working
with
those
going
through
the
homeless
sector.
So
over
108
individuals
have
been
supported
coming
out
of
all
going
into
exempt
because
we
still
place
into
good
quality
executive
homes
and
they
do
that
support
to
make
sure
that
they
are
they're
able
to
sustain
them
getting
what
they
need.
A
But
also
because
they
then
kind
of
develop
this
work.
I
think
you
know
the
key
thing
about
this.
Is
this:
this
was
developed
with
people
with
lived
experience,
so
it
was
talking
to
people
that
have
a
living.
This
accommodation
to
understand.
You
know
what
it
is.
They
need
to
and
there's
those
things
on
the
line
to
have
that
right
to
feel
safe
and
protected
decent
living
conditions
about
you
know,
leaving
it
clear.
H
A
On
the
ground
activity,
there's
been
a
lot
of
stuff
going
on
that.
That's
been
part
of
the
pilot
that
I
think
is
important
to
know.
How's
talks
about
strategic
needs
assessments
in
the
future
strategy,
which
I
think
is
going
to
be
the
key
for
us
so
pulling
together.
All
of
the
evidence
coming
out
of
the
work
of
the
pilot
pulling
together.
A
Highlights
on
that,
there
are
any
specific
questions
around
that
she's
she's,
not
remembering
she's
right,
okay
and
she
was
going
to
sign
in.
But
if
not
that's
fine,
but
what
has
enabled
us
to
do
is
to
increase
the
capacity
of
the
community
safety
team
so
in
rewarding
dedicated
asb
officers
that
were
working
as
part
of
the
multi-disciplinary
team
alongside
those
through
that
operational
tasking
to
target,
which
you
know
in
the
main,
a
lot
of
the
inspections
were
based
on
complaints.
We've
received
around
anti-social
behavior.
A
We
know
that
there's
a
high
number
of
complaints
coming
in
around
that
so
they've
been
able
to
target
those
and
obviously
serious,
organized
prime
work
and
special
case
reviews.
We
have
this
westminster
police
officer,
who's
worked
with
us
and
throughout
this
again
key
part
of
the
pilot
team
and
they're
going
to
be
taking.
You
know,
230
inspections.
A
A
Ongoing
dialogue
around
their
what
the
pilot's
enabled
us
to
do
is
to
be
part
of
that
national
steering
group
looking
to
inform
those
policy
changes
that
needed,
providing
the
evidence
to
support
that
that
that
steering
group
that
he's
led
by
an
sdg
clg
also
includes
the
regulator.
It
also
includes
dwp,
policymakers
and
we've
been
focusing
on
some
key
key
elements:
policy
thinking
around
benefit
and
managing
benefit
processes
and
putting
together
some
best
practice
around
that
planning
support
assessments,
new
providers,
referral
pathways,
I
think,
more
importantly,
the
overall
policy
thinking
about
what
should
supporting.
A
Okay,
we've
got
so
there
were
three
presentations,
two
from
two
main
ones,
really
from
adult
services
and
from
housing.
We've
got
the
benefits
service
and
then
a
strategic
overview
and
then
planning
after
the
break,
but
members
any
questions.
If
you've
got
anybody
online
yet
have
forgotten.
I've
got
one
thing
for
kell
online:
the
changes
to
supporting
people
legislation.
E
A
I
want
to
say
that
to
emphasize
I
don't
care
which
government
was
responsible.
It
was
clearly
wrong
to
do
that
and
that's
why
you
know
this
isn't
about
attacking
this
local
authority
or
attacking
the
current
government.
This
is
about
let's,
let's
try
and
create
a
situation
in
birmingham,
that's
better
for
everybody
concerned,
especially
those
good
providers
who
are
being
tarnished
with
the
the
brush
of
some
of.
B
I
think
there's
two
things
that
we
need
to
get
out
of
the
meeting
today,
because
one
is
what
ask:
do
we
want
government
and
what
can
we
do
ourselves
because
you
know,
even
if
we,
if
the
government
said
today
that
they
were
going
to
change
and
give
us
what
we
want
it's
going
to
by
the
time
they
go
through
consultation,
do
everything
they
have
to
do
to
get
the
law
changed.
They
found
time
to
do
it,
that's
going
to
be
quite
a
way
down
the
track.
So
it's
just
finding
this
too.
A
I
At
one
point,
they
said
that
when
they've
been
looking
into
fortunate
tablecloths,
they
got
the
money
back,
a
certain
number
and
my
question
on
that
is,
and
were
the
people
prosecuted
because
obviously
they
were
making
fraudulent
claims.
So
I
would
like
to
know
that
more
than
just
we
got
the
money
back,
there
were
some
prosecutions
to
prevent
people
doing
it
in
the
future
or
deter
people
in
the
future,
and
the
other
thing
was.
I
But
this
this
scrutiny
review
has
really
come
about
mainly,
I
think,
because
of
the
number
of
complaints
that
residents
in
areas
such
as
north
edge
westerners,
such
as
scotland,
green,
were
getting
about
antisocial
behavior
from
these
properties
so
and
I've
had
some
myself
in
my
ward
of
people
just
hanging
around
in
the
street
outside
the
house
at
two
o'clock
in
the
morning.
Shouting,
that's
a
that's
a
a
minor
thing
compared
to
then
burglary
and
and
other
things
which
which
go
with
it.
I
So
I
wondered
what's
being
done
about
so
very
well
to
have
rights,
but
people
have
responsibilities
as
well
and
if
people
are
moving
into
an
area,
they
do
need
to
know
that
you
can't
stand
outside
and
shriek
at
two
o'clock
in
the
morning
and
your
next-door
neighbors
have
got
to
get
up
and
go
to
work.
So
what
is
being
done
about
explaining
that
there
are
responsibilities
as
well
as
rights?
A
I
think
in
his
presentation
around
and
how
do
we
manage
providers
that
are
that
are
identifying
as
potential
fraud,
but
I
think
it's
fair
to
say
that
where
fraud
is
identified,
that
is
referred
through
to
dwp's
called
audits
so
or
something
like
that.
So
so
they
they.
They
refer
up
to
dwp
funding.
So
all
fraud.
A
Primarily
around
anti-social
behavior
and
the
problems
that
high
concentrations
of
supporting
housing-
you
know
even
on
a
particular
road
or
you
know
in
a
local
area,
has
on
the
local
local
residents
and
that's
the
work
that
we've
been
trying
to
do
targeting
those
providers
where
they've
got
those
high
concentrations
of
properties
and
working
with
them
around
asb.
It's
it's.
You
know
it's
it's
going
to
be
an
ongoing
thing
and
a
learning
thing
with
them
through
the
training
program,
once
you're
doing
a
bit
around
what
a
good
asb
policy
looks
like
it's
important
to
say.
A
I
think,
as
cal
said,
that
the
regulator's
office
do
focus
very
much
from
their
perspective
on
finance
and
governance.
However,
the
social
housing
white
paper
as
a
strength
and
he's
proposing
strengthening
the
regulated
role
around
consumer
standards,
so
we're
hoping
that
through
that
process,
not
just
for
regulating
local
authorities
and
non-supporting
housing
registered
providers,
they'll
have
a
responsibility
around
this
sector
as
well
and
on
cancer.
Harmless
points
about
case
work.
F
Thank
you,
chair
apologies,
I'm
contacting
you
remotely,
but
there
you
go.
I've
just
got
two
questions
really.
You
know.
Everybody
knows
that
stockton
green's
got
the
highest
proportion
of
exempt
properties
in
the
city.
What
I
will
say
is
that
the
exempt
team
that
we've
put
together,
which
involves
multi-agencies,
has
been
incredibly
helpful
over
here
and
what
I'm
wondering
is
when
that
funding
ends.
F
Are
we
building
a
business
case
to
put
that
to
council
to
include
it
in
its
long-term
financial
plan,
and
actually
I
would
imagine
that
the
cost
of
that
would
be
offset
by
some
of
the
higher
interventions
and
through
social
care
and
such
and
also,
obviously,
the
other
side
of
that
is
that
residents
don't
make
a
differential
between
exempt
and
hmo
properties.
So
I
know
that
we've
recruited
some
members
into
the
prs
team,
but
we
don't
currently
have
any
numbers
about
that.
A
J
Thank
you
chair.
My
my
question
is
around
so
in
my
ward,
we've
got
it's
very
evident.
We've
got
some
people
in
either
example
hmos,
I'm
not
sure
which
one
it
is,
but
there
seems
to
be
a
very
mix
of
people
in
there
with
different
support
needs
and
it's
very
evident
that
some
of
them
need
very
high
support
needs.
J
How
do
we?
I
know?
We've
got
the
pilot
and
we've
got
all
the
officers
that
are
going
out
there,
they're
looking
at
the
properties
and
things,
but
how
we
I'm
taking
on
board
comments
from
residents.
Where
is
very
evident
that
it's
a
badly
managed
property
in
terms
of
regulating
that
particular
property,
because
what
I
don't
want
to
do
is
I
don't
want
to
put
everyone
under
the
same
banner
because,
as
some
members
have
said
before
as
well,
there
are
some
very
good
providers.
But
there
are
some
really
bad
providers
as
well.
J
So
my
concern
is
obviously
around
the
really
bad
providers,
which
is
why
obviously
we're
doing
this
a
whole
inquiry.
But
how?
How
do
you
take
on
board
when
local
residents
are
raising
very
serious
concerns
in
the
way
that
a
property
is
being
managed,
and
maybe
the
clientele
that
are
in
that
property?
A
Okay,
I
mean
that's
an
interesting
question
because
we
learned
from
the
presentation
and
it's
the
housing
social
regulator
who
has
a
lot
of
the
powers.
So
clearly,
we
must
have
a
good
relationship
with
him
or
her
and
their
team
in
order
to
do
exactly
what
chancellor
cooner
has
suggested
closed
down.
Those
providers
which
are
clearly
breaking
all
the
relevant,
very
regulatory
rules.
So
in
answering
the
question,
if
you
could
touch
on
how
we
get
to
close
down
a
poorly
managed,
41
establishment,
so
in
terms
of
getting
to
the
point
of
actually
closing
down,
yes,.
A
Clearly,
if
we
hit
these
poor
providers
in
the
pocket,
if
there
is
inadequate
care,
if
they're
not
looking
at
the
residents,
if
there's
anti-social,
behavior
that's
causing
mayhem
in
the
local
area,
we
have
the
powers
through
our
housing
benefit
role.
To
stop
the
payments.
Coming
up,
it's
more
about
the
two
thresholds.
A
Two
tests,
which
again
they
will
touch
on,
I
think,
that's
a
critical
point,
because
picking
up
on
what
you
and
said
earlier,
it's
unlikely
that
we're
going
to
get
if
we
do
get
success
with
local
government
for
changes,
we
are
going
to
be
on
our
own
for
all
for
the
single
future.
So
we
need
to
work
out
what
powers
we
have
and
to
use
them
in
a
very
a
very
targeted
way,
yeah
a
very
forensic
way
to
make
sure
that
we're
tackling
the
worst
aspects
yeah.
A
K
Obviously,
this
type
of
party
is
supposed
to
be
temporary,
however,
due
to
the
lack
of
support
that
some
people
receive
in
comparison
to
the
actual
need,
I'm
really
concerned
that
people
are
just
moved
around
from
one
type
of
you
know
this
type
of
accommodation
to
another.
Are
we
keeping
a
track
of?
You
know
the
length
of
line
that
people
are
spending
in
this
type
of
accommodation,
because
it
is
supposed
to
be
temporary.
K
The
other
thing
is:
do
we
know
the
figures
of
people
who
are
making
applications
for
benefit
for
exempt
accommodation,
housing
that
are
recently
from
outside
of
birmingham?
And
the
reason
I
ask
this
is
my
concern
is
around
you
know
human
trafficking
and
exploitation
of
hundreds
of
people
who
are
being
moved
around.
You
know
from
the
country
in
new
york
in
this
way,
and
finally,
it's
briefly,
you
know
wild
nation
also,
subject
to
you,
know,
consultations
with
the
public
accommodations
that
are
not
considering
but
poorly
managed,
accommodations
you're
bringing
in
similar
problems.
K
K
A
A
A
L
Thank
you
chair.
I
actually
you
just
picked
me
to
the
post,
because
I
was
going
to
ask
about
the
housing
benefit
element
because,
a
while
ago
chair,
you
probably
remember
we
were
sent.
We
were
circulated
the
analysis
of
the
accommodation
market
in
the
west
midlands
police
area,
so
I've
got
the
report
in
front
of
me
and
it
says
here:
I've
highlighted
it.
L
The
evidence
suggests
that
the
highest
rate
for
support
and
harry's
in
benefit
is
easier
to
acquire
in
birmingham
than
any
of
the
other
local
authorities,
and
I
suppose
it
just
sort
of
revolves
around
your
question.
Why
can't
we
stop
it?
I
mean
in
my
mind
this
the
simplicity
of
it
is,
and
it
is
simple.
I
know
if
you
keep
feeding
the
sharks
the
sharks
will
come
back.
L
L
I
just
want,
I
think,
part
of
what
we
need
to
do
for
birmingham,
because
looking
in
this
west
midlands
police
report,
there's
184
million
profit
nationally
from
this
system.
This
operation,
criminal,
based
or
whatever
the
revenue
is
huge.
So
I
just
wanted
to
know
whether
that's
in
the
pilot
work-
I
don't
know
just
drumming
it
down
to
birmingham
what
sort
of
revenue
I
think
we
need
something
in
the
report,
that's
deeper,
because
I
just
want
some
clarity
around
what
is
birmingham?
L
What's
the
figure
about
units
that
birmingham's
dealing
with
and
who
do,
we
know
who
they
are
because
in
the
in
the
papers
we
were
sent
before
today,
the
call
for
evidence
response
on
the
back
page,
it
talks
of
six
providers
and
it
says
70
of
those
providers
make
up
for
birmingham.
I
I
think
I've
read
it
right,
but
if
we
know
of
70
of
the
sector
who's
covering
it,
what
money
are
they
being
paid?
L
E
Okay,
so
I
I'm
not
able
to
come
back
on
the
housing
benefit
figures
councillor,
so
my
presentation.
What
was
an
overview
so
I'm
hoping
that
david
can
help
with
that
when
we
come
to
his
piece
in
terms
of
who's
in
there
again,
you
know
this
is
based
on
hb
claims.
This
is
a
non-commissioned
exempt
sector,
and
so
therefore,
the
routes
into
that
isn't
necessarily,
or
at
least
likely
going
to
be
through
local
authority
routes,
I.e
local
authority
referrals.
E
So
it
could
be
a
number
of
agencies
that
are
referring
into
them.
What
we,
what
we
do
have
is
is
is
a
feel
for
we're,
starting
to
get
a
feel
for
the
types
of
needs
within
that
provision.
Hence
why
I
said
that
we
started
the
needs
analysis.
We've
got
a
bit
more
work
to
do
in
terms
of
that
level
of
information,
and
we
do
have
a
social
work
team
as
part
of
part
of
the
pilot.
E
A
So
is
there
any
any,
not
controlled
or
is
there
anything
anyone
can
do
to
prevent
that
lifting
and
shifting
of
people
with
vulnerable
people
from
one
part
of
the
uk
into
our
city,
so
that
so
that
the
I
would
say,
the
burden
of
responsibility,
but
the
level
of
responsibility
is
spread
evenly
throughout
the
uk,
based
on
the
origins
of
people's
backgrounds,
in
terms
of
where
they're
from
etc,
etc.
Why
is
it
that
some
of
some
of
these
providers
are
are
moving
people
to
birmingham
from
we've
got
no
connection
with
the
city.
A
E
E
It's
it's
not
it's
not
just
a
birmingham
issue.
It's
it's
an
issue
for
local
authorities
where
there
is
exempt
growth
as
a
result
of
their
property
profile,
and,
if
you
like,
can
we
do?
Firstly,
it's
difficult
to
determine
the
level
of
referrals
from
outside
of
the
city.
We,
we
have
very
little
means
of
identifying
where
people
necessarily
come
from
when
we
look
at
the
local
intelligence
on
on
the
ground.
The
information
we
have
is
you
know
these
are
birmingham
residents,
so
so
it
is.
E
It
is
difficult
to
validate
that
or
quantify
that
in
terms
of
what
we
can
do
outside
of
changes
to
the
regulations
which,
hopefully
will
be
part
when
we
come
to
our
recommendations,
piece
and
we'll
we'll
cover
that
off
in
more
detail,
we
are
in
dialogue
with
a
national
probation
service,
for
example,
to
ensure
that
they
really
look
at
where
they're.
You
know,
when
they're
resettling
prison
populations
that
they
they
try
their
best
to
reconnect.
A
I
understand
it
just
seems
to
me
that
if
I
had
a
family
member
who
was
struggling
with
any
addiction,
if
I
had
a
family
member
who
had
come
out
of
prison
and
needed
support,
I
wanted
to
be
close
to
me.
I
want
them
to
be
close
to
a
support
mechanism,
a
support
network
that
could
give
that
that
you
know
friends
and
family
are
the
best
providers
of
that
support,
rather
than
someone
who's
doing
it
just
for
to
get
rich
quick.
A
B
A
Is
it
also
a
trap
for
those
people
in
the
sense
that
once
they're
in
there
it's
it
can
be
difficult
to
get
out?
And
I
asked
that
question.
I
had
an
email
earlier
this
week,
one
of
my
residents
who's
in
exempt
accommodation
who
said
that
they've
been
stuck
in
the
same
property
for
two
years
and
that
their
landlord
was
telling
them
don't
get
a
job,
because
that
will
mess
up
the
benefits
situation
and.
A
I
can't
get
a
job
because
I
can't
get
a
good
enough
job
quickly
enough
to
get
to
look
after
my
own
accommodation.
So
therefore,
I
have
to
effectively
not
get
a
job,
so
at
least
I've
got
some
accommodation,
albeit
it's
poor.
So
is
there
an
exempt
trap
like
you
know
that
is
operating
and
that
potentially
you
know.
B
A
A
This
is
supposed
to
be
a
step,
stepping
stone
into
secure
second
accommodation.
So
clearly
we
would
be
expecting
providers
to
be
doing
that
work,
but
you
know
you're
right.
We
know
that
you've
got
dates.
That
indicates
some
individuals
accommodation
for
a
long
long
time.
Okay,
I've
got
one
more
person
indicated
to
speak.
It's
a
second
by
that
penny
and
you'll
be
the
last
one
before
the
break
benny.
So.
F
F
The
reason
that
people
are
moving
into
birmingham
from
outside
is
that
the
properties
are
available
here
and
it's
cheaper
for
their
local
councils
to
pay
for
them
to
move
here
than
it
is
for
them
to
pay
to
go
anywhere
else,
and-
and
I
think
we
need
to
be
realistic
about
that-
whatever
your
political
view
is,
and
the
second
question
I
wanted
to
ask-
and
regardless
I
might
have-
I
might
have
missed
it
earlier
in
my
apologies.
If
I
did,
what
are
we
doing
when
these
exempt
providers
close
down
or
lose
their
licenses?
A
A
We
recognize
that
there
are
providers
exiting
and
there
are
risks
to
individuals
around
that
in
terms
of
performances,
so
the
protocol
toolkit
that
we've
been
testing
with
some
of
the
the
four
providers
that
have
either
that
are
going
through
that
process.
We
are
working
very
closely
with
the
literally
a
case-by-case
tenant
by
tenant
level
to
understand
you
know
how
doing
that
risk
assessment
in
terms
of
what
the
level
of
support
is,
ensuring
that
they
are
that
that
those
needs
are
being
met
and
all
yeah
we're
linking
together
our
statutory
homeless
service.
F
A
It
could
be
could
be
a
range
it
could
be
the
same
in
the
property
it
could
be
moving
to
another
property
to
another
provider.
Clearly,
there
is
a
need
for
us
to
look
at
them
from
a
homeless
perspective.
We're
making
sure
that
we're
picking
that
up
early
so
it
could
be
a
range.
It
could
be
a
range
of
outcomes
that
could
come
for
each
individual.
A
Yeah,
so
I
think
I
think
that's
an
important
point
into
one
that
predecessor,
my
colleague
sharon
thompson
used
to
go
on
me
a
lot
that
it's
one
thing
dealing
with
the
the
worst
excesses
of
accepted
accommodation.
But
then
there's
what
do
you
do
with
the
people?
So
I
think
it's
something
that
we
we
will
address
in
the
recommendations.
F
And
I'm
sorry
to
label
the
point
chair,
but
the
four
providers
have
all
got
properties
in
my
ward,
so
you
know
those
residents
are
also
my
you
know.
Those
tenants
are
also
my
residents
as
much
as
everybody
else,
who's
suffering
and
my
residence
and
I
want
to
make
sure
they're
safe
going
forward.
But
I
appreciate
that.
Thank
you.
A
We
are,
we
are
as
one
of
this
okay,
even
though
my
colleague
from
coal
field
has
got
one
on
two
extended
comedy,
but
but
he
wants,
he
represents
not
just
his
own
ward.
Like
us
all
on
this
committee,
we
represent
the
whole
of
the
city.
So
rest
assured
that
that
we
understand
that
scotland
green
has
the
largest
percentage.
I
thought
it
was
more
dead
faster.
There
you
go,
I
didn't
think
it
could
get
any
worse
than
mine.
A
We're
gonna
reconvene,
we're
gonna,
have
10
minutes,
I'm
afraid,
rather
than
the
15
that
was
originally
planned,
because
we
are
a
little
bit
behind.
So
can
we
get
back
here
for
half
past
god
have
past
11
already?
If
we
can
get
back
for
half
past
11
have
a
cup
of
coffee.
I
wish
I
was
at
home.
I
could
just
go
downstairs
and
make
myself
one.
I'm
gonna
go
to
the
cafe.
Who
knows
what
the
quality
is
like
anybody
had
one
from
here.
A
C
A
G
Okay,
thank
you,
chair
I'll,
be
brief,
then,
so,
first
of
all,
very
pleased
scrutiny
you're
doing
this
piece
of
work.
It
is
a
huge
problem
in
our
city
and
hugely
important
that
we
get
to.
The
bottom
of
this
benefits
is
very
often
the
front
door
to
to
providers
landing
in
our
city
and
provides
a
really
important
piece
of
the
the
very
very
complicated
jigsaw
on
this.
It
is
very,
very
complicated,
so
I'm
going
to
pass
over
to
the
experts,
which
are
tim
and
david
to
talk
us
through
some
of
the
issues
there.
G
I
know
there's
been
lots
of
challenges
in
the
past
which
the
team
have
taken
on
board
investigated
and
looked
at
how
we
can
do
things
to
improve
what
we
do
here,
and
I
know
the
team
has
looked
at
loads
of
learning
from
other
local
authorities
as
well
to
look
at
how
we
can
strengthen
our
practice
that
won't
take
up
any
more
time
I'll
hand
over
to
the
experts
to
to
walk
you
through
that.
Thank
you.
Thank
you
very.
H
H
So,
just
before
I
begin
the
presentation,
I
believe
that
the
presentation
will
cover
off
a
number
of
the
questions
that
we've
just
that
we've
just
heard
this
morning.
However,
one
area
which
I'll
go
into
a
little
bit
more
detail
now,
because
the
presentation
doesn't
so
I
want
to
ensure
that
I
don't
forget
it
is
around
when
we're
talking
around
the
reclaiming
of
overpayments
and
then
the
the
potential
fraud
that
could
be.
As
a
result
of
that,
it
was
correct
what
guy
stated
was.
Basically,
it
was
around
2015.
H
The
the
center
was
the
centralization
of
the
fraud
elements
of
all
local
authorities,
so
they
all
come
under.
Something
now
called
s
fists,
which
is
the
single
fraud
investigation
service
which
sits
within
the
dwp,
so
any
form
of
fraud
or
suspected
fraud
across
any
form
of
benefit
needs
to
be
referred
into
s
vis,
for
them
to
be
able
to
deal
with
that.
So
wherever
we
have
found
or
have
suspected
any
potential
housing
benefit
fraud.
H
H
However,
the
figure
is
around,
so
I
will
caveat
that
it
is
around
110
million
pounds
and
our
total
housing
benefits.
Outlay
is
over
330
million
pounds,
and
the
sector
does
actually
compromise
of
over
a
quarter
of
the
total
of
our
case
load
and
as
the
rents
are
slightly
higher,
as
for
general
needs
rents
that
would
correlate
an
appropriate
the
amount
versus
our
total
expenditure.
H
However,
there
is
no
legal
definition
of
care,
support
or
supervision,
and
there
is
no
specification
about
how
much
care,
support
or
sub-supervision
needs
to
provide
to
be
provided,
since
the
legislations
were
laid.
Upper
tribunal
have
defined
that
it
must
be
more
than
minimal.
However,
that
doesn't
always
link
to
meeting
the
needs
of
the
tenant
just
above
minimal.
H
The
housing
benefit
is
a
payment
to
the
citizen
as
opposed
to
the
landlord.
It
is
not
a
landlord's
given
it
is
the
citizens
payment.
It
may
go
in
some
instances
directly
to
the
landlord.
However,
we
need
to
remember
it:
is
the
citizens
benefit
entitlement
housing
benefit,
as
well
as
calvin
mentioned
early,
does
not
cover
the
cost
of
care,
support
or
supervision.
H
H
So
I
just
I
was
just
getting
off
the
set
and
we
can
stop
housing
benefit
payments
following
a
review
of
the
claim
if
there
is
below
minimal,
insufficient
care,
support
or
supervision
taking
place.
However,
it
only
needs
to
be
more
than
minimal,
as
I've
stated
for
us
to
be
able
to
to
be
necessary
to
pay
that
element.
Housing
benefit.
Okay,
thank
you.
So
the
regulation
limitations
before
I
go
into
this.
H
H
H
H
That's
not
possible
once
we
have
obtained
all
of
the
necessary
information
and
evidence,
we
then
have
an
obligation
to
make
a
decision
within
the
fort
within
14
days.
Sometimes
it
takes
much
much
longer
to
make
the
decision,
but
that
is
to
do
with
us
not
receiving
the
appropriate
information
or
evidence.
So
this
is
why,
in
some
cases
and
we'll
get
contact
from
some
organizations
where
the
decision
has
taken
much
longer,
but
that's
because
there's
been
a
failure
to
provide
the
information
that's
been
requested.
H
H
There
is
also
a
suggestion
and
that
we
can
and
a
claim
that
other
authorities
do
this-
that
we
extend-
and
we
get
around
that
14
days
by
extending
our
time
period
by
playing
the
local
housing
allowance
in
between.
While
we
make
that
decision,
that's
not
possible
legislation.
It
takes
the
fact
that
we
can't
do
that.
H
I
believe
it's
regulation
13c
states
that
the
lha
rate
can't
be
paid
for
registered
landlords,
supported
accommodation,
so
other
authorities
which
we
have
been
reported
are
by
taking
this
practice
contacted,
and
they
have
confirmed
that
they
don't
along
the
lines
of
the
legislation.
It
is
not
possible
to
be
able
to
do
so.
H
H
If
there
is
insufficient
evidence
of
information
provided,
then
we'd
not
be
able
to
make
a
decision
and
that's
the
way
this
can
lead
to
delays
and
we
can't
take
into
account
the
standards
of
the
property.
Any
reports
about
anti-social,
behavior
potential
substance
misuse
all
of
a
lot
of
the
other
issues
that
that's
involved
and
can
fall
out
of
supported
accommodation.
In
some
instances,
however,
we
will
refer
them
and,
prior
to
the
pilot,
would
make
direct
referrals
to
other
agencies,
whether
that
be
key
stakeholders,
agencies
within
birmingham,
but
now
obviously
the
pilot's
underway.
H
H
The
pilot,
however,
has
enabled
us
to
add
extra
processes
to
this
team's
functionality
and
also
expand
and
the
volume
of
the
the
reviews
that
can
take
place
so
we've
increased,
the
numbers
of
the
team
slides
have
gone
again,
I'll
just
refer
to
mine,
so
we've
increased
the
numbers
within
the
team
as
a
result
of
the
of
the
pilot,
but
some
of
the
new
processes
that
we've
put
into
place.
So
we
we
one
of
the
questions.
Sorry
I'll,
just
I'll
just
pause
there.
For
a
moment.
H
One
of
the
questions
that
we
we're
looking
to
address
is
talk
through
our
process
of
the
front
door
process
of
assessing
a
new
clay.
That
is
a
very,
very
lengthy
process
and
if,
at
the
end
of
this
presentation,
I
have
time
I'll
try
to
skim
I'll,
try
and
skim
through
that
process.
However,
that
documentation,
I
believe,
may
have
been
sent
out
prior
to
the
meeting,
but
if
not,
it
will
definitely
be
sent
out
afterwards.
H
H
We
do
full
case
reviews
of
providers
of
concern
so
where
we
have
providers
flagged
up
to
us
that
as
of
concern,
so
we
do
need
to
be
evidence-based.
We
will
then
do
a
full
case
review.
It's
not
just
purely
looking
at
the
six
largest
providers,
as
I
just
mentioned
earlier,
targeting
those
and
believing
they'd
potentially
be
sharps,
because
just
because
they're
large
doesn't
directly
mean
that
they
are
with
poor
quality.
H
A
new
process
we've
put
in
place
is
we're
tracking
outcomes
of
50
cases
where
we're
to
see
sort
of
any
form
of
movement
within
the
sector
so
where
we
have
ended,
supported,
exempt
accommodation
payment
for
that
for
50
cases
as
a
result
of
review
review,
we're
tracking
them
those
cases
for
two
months
to
see
if
they
then
turn.
If
they
are,
then
the
applications
for
those
who
claim
reference
numbers
within
other
organizations
and
whether
then
we
can
track
a
form
of
surge
around
the
city.
H
We
also
work
with
the
revenues
council
tax
department,
basically
to
ensure
that
the
correct
liability
is
being
applied
and
for
supported
accommodation
properties.
So
we've
tried
to
utilize
every
string
that
would
possibly
every
string
to
the
bow
that
we
could
potentially
utilize,
because
the
regulations
are
limited
and
obviously
we're
working
within
the
supported
housing
pilot,
the
outcomes,
the
overpayments
to
the
value.
This
is
since
it'll
be
slightly
different
to
the
figure
that
guy
has
it
in
the
figures
before
earlier
is
because
this
overpayment
figure
is,
since
this
team
was
created,
2019.
H
as
opposed
to
the
figure
which
was
since
the
pilot
started,
but
the
overpayments
to
the
value
of
3.6
million
have
been
recovered
in
back
into
the
city.
Now,
it's
very
important
to
say
those
overpayments
occur
not
because
of
a
lack
of
process,
but
because
of
inappropriate
or
fraudulently
claimed
housing
benefit,
and
then
those
broad
referrals
are
then
made.
H
So
we
cannot
do
the
benefit.
Caseload
is
eighty
000..
The
council
tax
support
caseload
is
120
000.,
we
can't
do
80
and
we
don't
do,
and
it's
not
the
requirement
to
do
80,
120,
000,
daily
checks
to
ensure
those
claims
are
still
accurate.
It
is
actually
the
legal
duty
of
the
landlord
or
the
citizen
to
inform
us
of
those
changes
when
they
don't.
That
has
been
inappropriate.
H
A
H
H
So
that's
to
show
you
the
new
properties
that
are
trying
to
come
into
birmingham
the
outcome
of
the
reviews
there.
If
you
obviously
for
you
to
see
of
what
we've
taken,
what
we've
done
to
date,
the
properties
reviewed
the
claims
reviewed,
the
overpayments
and
the
fraud
referrals
made
further
questions,
as
I
say,
which
we've
had
come
through
questions
that
have
just
been
mentioned
today
and
has
come
through
the
average
weekly
hp
entitlement
for
pt
so
for
private
tenancies
184
and
for
registered.
H
The
average
cost
of
social
rent
is
slightly
more
because
not
all
of
the
rent
is
covered
by
the
hp
entitlement
and
that's
the
218
pounds
how
process
claims
are
processed.
Obviously,
that's
a
very
long
process
which
I'll
send
the
documentation.
The
documentation
will
be
sent
through
the
benchmarking
we've
mentioned.
The
differences
between
local
authorities.
We've
ensured
that
there
isn't
any
differences
in
our
process
and
we
have
strengthened
wherever
possible.
I
will
continue
to
look
to
strengthen
the
process,
hence
the
newspaper
and
the
final
point
there
was.
H
We
had
a
question
around
where
the
regulator
has
been
involved
in
a
a
provider.
Why
do
we
carry
on
paying
basically
from
when
a
provider
has
registered
status
removed?
Then
we
can
look
to
make
the
review
of
that
claim
and
reassess
that
claim
if
they
have
just
downgraded
or
have
they
started
to
do
a
review.
They
are
still
of
registered
status,
and
that
is
not
something
that
we
have
control
over
auckland.
A
B
Just
in
case
you
weren't
here
at
the
beginning,
I
think
we
very
much
agreed
to
say
cross-party
approach
to
this
sort
of
two-pronged
attack.
Really
one
is
what
can
government
do
to
make
sure
we
get
a
good
ask
from
this
from
them,
and
it's
also.
What
can
birmingham
city
council
do,
because,
even
if
the
government
changed
everything
overnight,
there's
going
to
be
a
slight
delay
there
and
now
sort
of
intrigued
that
you're
talking
about
the
pilot
and
the
things
that
have
been
done
in
the
pilot,
some
of
those
things.
B
H
As
I
stated,
we
started
to
do
them
emotionally
within
2019,
when
the
team
was
put
into
place
before
the
pilot.
However,
there
were
the
front
door
process
was
always
in
place,
but
we
implemented
the
review
process
from
2019
when
we
identified
that
most
local
authorities
don't
do
that,
and
we
identified
that
that
would
actually
potentially
help
us
identify
any.
H
Decline
in
performance
or
decline
in
provision
from
those
providers
because
they
initially
would
demonstrate
to
us
that
this
was
actually
being
provided,
let's
say
careful
support
or
supervision.
But
when
we
revisit
those
claims
later
down
the
line
and
do
a
review,
then
we
could
find
that
they
may
that
may
well
have
changed.
We
did
find
that
and
that's
why
we
put
that
in
place
in
2019.
H
A
H
I
don't
believe
the
slide
says
we
don't
have
any
have
any
regular
powers,
the
slides
state
that
there
are
limitations
within
that.
So
basically,
a
provider
needs
to
provide
above
minimal
care,
support
or
supervision
and
be
not
for
profit
so
where
we
have
ended
claims
or
where
we've
refused
claims.
It's
where
we
have
been
able
to
demonstrate
that
that
provision,
that
provider
has
either
moved
from,
not
for
profit
themselves
to
becoming
for-profit
or
where
we
can
demonstrate
that
there
is
below
minimal
care,
support
or
supervision.
A
Can
you
give
us
further
information
not
now,
but
send
it
to
emma
by
email,
the
reasons
why
the
sea
status
was
refused
and
why
some
of
them
had
their
rents
restricted?
I'd,
be
very
interested
to
know
why?
But
I
still
I'm
going
to
ask
you
again
what
has
changed
in
the
last
12
months
that
has
allowed
you
to
refuse
and
restrict
claims
that
you
weren't
doing
earlier.
That
is
a
critical
question
that
this
committee
wants
answered.
H
Okay,
we
were
doing
it
earlier.
The
statistics
I've
given
you
are
for
the
past
12
months
with
regards
to
refusing
new
providers
coming
on
board.
That
was
just
to
try
and
give
a
snapshot
of
some
of
the
work
that
we've
done
to
take
them
within
the
last
12
months.
Some
of
the
other
statistics-
I've
provided
is
the
overpayments
that
have
been
clawed
back
and
the
fraudulent
referrals
that
we've
made
since
2019,
so
that
piece
of
work
was
being
done.
H
We've
just
been
have
the
capacity
to
be
able
to
strengthen
and
and
widen
those
reviews,
I'll
go
back
to
the
legislation.
What
is
a
what
it
allows
us
to
do?
We
do
restrict
and
we
always
have
restricted
rent
levels
where
possible
and
we
always
have
refused
new
providers
if
they
don't
meet
the
legislative
requirements
and
then
we
will
also
and
always
have
removed
state
we've
moved
payments
and
status.
A
H
So
so
sorry
check
what
we
weren't
doing.
As
I
was
detailed
in
there
prior
to
2019,
we
weren't
doing
the
review
process.
We
would
we
had
the
front
door,
but
once
the
claim
was
once
a
claim
was
awarded,
it
then
wasn't
reviewed
after
a
two-month
period
as
a
rolling
review
or
on
a
a
a
sort
of
a
diarized
review.
H
H
C
G
B
A
H
Our
relationship
and
our
payments
need
to
be
with
the
registered
provider
who
are
making
that
claim,
and
they
are
then
registered
as
not
for
profit
where
they
have
tipped
over
into
being.
For-Profit
status
was
registered
for
profit.
We
have
then
ceased
that
payment,
and
obviously
then
we
claimed
those
over
payments.
H
H
They
will
then
have
a
relationship
or
they
could
then
has
a
view
of
identified
there
with
profit
making
authority
with
profit-making
organizations.
However,
our
powers,
our
limitations,
stop
at
where
the
payment
is
made.
It's
where
the
hp
payment
is
paid,
what
they
then
do
with
that
money,
then
is
beyond
our
control
or
our
involvement.
H
We
have
obviously
spoken
to
the
regulator
about
this.
They
are
well
aware
of
this
and
they
have
informed
and
they
are
working
with
dwp
and
mhclg.
As
as
was
around
this
issue-
and
this
is
one
of
the
known
issues
and
one
of
the
things
that
I've
stated
when
the
regs
were
written-
it
was
a
very
different
era
in
context
and
there's
been
unintended
consequences,
since
some
of
those
have
been
changed.
K
A
K
K
I
think
majority
of
these
type
of
properties
in
birmingham
are
managed
by
a
few
already
well-established
housing
providers,
and
what
we
need
is
more
accountability
of
these
providers
and
that's
more
robust,
actually
taken
against,
where
they're
trying
to
be
failing
to
meet
standards
and
especially
because
they're
supposed
to
be
supporting
our
most
vulnerable
presidents.
I
welcome
you
know
anything
in
any
information.
H
B
I
think
just
hearing
about
your
refusals
and
the
things
that
you've
done,
but
you're
all
all
very
welcome-
and
you
know
my
background-
is
a
construction
industry
and
I'm
used
to
seeing
the
birmingham
city
council
on
planning
was
known
as
a
softer
touch
than
other
councils,
and
so
it
didn't
come
as
a
great
shock
to
me
to
hear
that
this
is
another
area
that
other
councils
are
deemed
to
be
stricter
on.
So
it
wasn't.
B
It
wasn't
a
massive
job
for
me
to
sort
of
think
that
maybe
something
in
that
and
I've
heard
examples
of
climates
that
were
looking
for
approval
in
sort
of
areas
of
birmingham
and
then
being
refused
and
will
be
in
these
figures
as
being
refused.
But
then
they
apply
across
the
road
and
still
within
birmingham,
but
just
across
the
road,
and
they
are
then
approved.
So
you
know,
whilst
we
can
say,
we've
got
a
big
list
of
people
have
been
not
back
here.
H
H
We
would
have
figures
of
provision
that
we
initially
would
have
knocked
back
because
of
lack
of
evidence,
and
then
they
would
provide
and
may
well
have
put
different
actions
or
provision
in
place
and
then
reapplied
having
changed
various
different
processes
that
they
that
they
will
provide,
and
they
that
that
may
well
then
will
have
been
awarded.
However,
I
would
need
to
go
back
and
obviously
look
through
those
figures
and
be
able
to
put
that
together.
C
A
A
There's
been
a
massive
growth.
Let
me
put
this
to
you,
then.
During
the
course
of
evidence.
Gathering
I
spoke
to
a
private
landlord.
Who's
been
operating
for
many
many
years
runs
hms
hmos
across
the
west
midlands
and
said
that
birmingham
is
a
soft
touch,
basically
echoing
what
what
councillor
mackey
said
and
that
the
housing
benefit
team
have
destroyed
the
private
rented
sector
in
birmingham,
because
everybody
thinks
that
hmos
and
private
landlords
and
exempt
accommodation
are
all
the
same
thing.
A
H
I'd
like
to
look
at
it
as
as
an
evidence-based
question,
so
I'd
like
to
see
the
evidence
that
would
demonstrate
that
we
are
soft
touch
as
opposed
to
an
authority
that
is
considered
as
not
a
soft
touch,
so
the
one
individual.
I
do
believe
I
I
cannot
identify
where
this
is
coming
from
and
the
allegation
that's
made
around
sandwell
and
it
always
gets
levied
with
sandwell
is
the
fact
that
they
implement
a
six-month
mandatory
delay,
and
this
then
puts
off
its
potential
applications
to
the
authority.
H
As
I
say,
we
work
with
those
because
they're
with
a
part
of
the
west
midlands
group,
and
it
is
a
key
concern
across
all
of
the
local
authorities
that
I
talk
to,
and
this
is
why
I
say:
there's
a
core
city
focus
group,
for
example,
being
called
and
is
happening
on
monday
of
next
week,
where
they're
trying
to
look
at
good
practice
about
how
they
can
stem
this
flow.
The
anecdotal,
as
I
say,
information
around
soft
touch.
H
As
I
say,
we
have
benchmarked
all
of
our
processes
against
a
number
of
adults
that
have
been
identified
as
good
performance
as
good
practice
and
every
element
that
they
carry
out.
We
do
as
well.
There
is
a
bar
one.
There
is
one
element
that
we
cannot
do
because
it
is
not
part
of
the
hb
team.
As
such,
I
mean
there's
only
a
very
small
number
of
authorities
and
they
are
smaller
parties
that
do
that,
and
that
is
with
the
initial
application.
H
There
is
a
visiting
team
of
other
areas,
so
social
workers
etc
that
go
out
at
the
initial
visit.
However,
as
part
of
the
pilot,
our
version
of
that
is
those
other
areas
of
the
council
go
out
at
various
different
review
stages
now,
anyway,
instead
of
being
doing
it
in
sections
basically
now
done
later
on
as
a
review
and
any
misinformation
that
would
then
that
is
then
discovered,
as
part
of
that,
obviously
then
leads
to
the
removal
of
any
form
of
states
and
overpayment
being
reclawed
anyway.
H
H
In
this
city,
don't
you
I
understand?
Yes,
I
see
that
I
used
to
work
in
the
sector
for
23
years
before
coming
to
burma.
City
council.
I
understand
and
part
of
the
issues
is
around
the
removal
of
social
value
around
the
removal
of
various
different
landlords
responsibilities
and,
as
I
say,
that
is
not
something
with
under
the
housing
benefit
control,
regulation
control.
But
I
do
empathize
and
do
understand
the
issues
that
he's
causing
burma,
city,
council,
the
citizens
and
and
the
local
authority.
L
Yeah,
thank
you,
chair
david,
I'm
ever
so
sorry,
I've
missed
a
lot
of
what
you've
said
because,
although
I'm
on
mute,
I
can
hear
background
voices
where
I
am
and
I
can
barely
hear
what
you're
saying
and
I'm
just
getting
clip
clips
of
it.
So
I
apologize
because
the
bits
I
can
hear
it
does
sound
like
you
know
you
remit,
forgive
my
ignorance
and
I
just
want
to
ask
a
simple
question
with
the
housing
benefits
that
are
paid
out.
L
I
know
you've
talked
about
the
reviews
of
the
reviews
and
the
refusals,
but
the
majority
of
the
housing
benefit
that
is
paid
out.
Is
there
a
hundred
percent
return
from
dwp
back
on
that?
I'm
just
trying
to
think
well,
I'm
just
trying
to
think
of
the
subsidy
of
housing
benefit
regulation
and
I'm
no
expert
on
it.
I
just
thought
you
received
100
back
of
what
you
paid
out.
Have
I
got
that
right.
H
H
The
pt
caseload
within
birmingham
has
remained
11
around
1100
since
2016
and
it
hasn't
grown,
so
there
hasn't
been
a
growth
in
subsidy
loss
for
birmingham.
However,
one
of
the
differences
between
birmingham
and
other
local
authorities
is
a
vast
majority
of
other
local
authorities.
Growth
is
in
the
pt
sector
as
opposed
to
the
registered
sector.
So
as
well
as
all
of
the
other
issues
that
we're
talking
about
here
today
around
the
problems
around
anti-social
behavior
around
the
problems
it
has
on
our
local
community.
H
It
is
also
an
added
problem
for
the
for
the
finances
of
other
local
authorities,
because
the
pt
case
load
is
growing
exponentially,
which
is
also
infecting
affecting
their
subsidy
loss
currently
in
birmingham,
and
has
been
the
case
since
2016.
The
growth
for
birmingham
has
been
registered
as
opposed
to
pt.
L
A
Can
I
give
you
the
best
benefits
to
izzy?
Okay,
I
was
going
to
say
something
that
you
know
awards
mean
nothing
to
me.
I
have
to
say,
but
they
mean
everything
to
some
people.
I
know
we've
got
planning
now,
so
I've
got
james
fox
and
new
and
fan
hand
from
planning
who
are
going
to
briefly
run
through
their
slides
because
you
haven't
got
the
powers
at
the
moment.
So
can
you
focus
on
what
you'd
like
yeah,
rather
than
what
you
haven't
got.
A
The
reasons
I
will
go
into
we
have
found
the
vast
majority
of
properties
investigating
do
not
require
planned
function
in
a
number
of
cases
where
the
quality
of
the
accommodation
has
not
been
acceptable.
Informal
action
has
been
taken
to
facilitate
improvements,
including
increasing
the
size
of
internal
communal
space
for
the
residents
and
in
cases
where
no
provision
has
been
provided,
reducing
the
number
of
bedrooms
to
introduce
a
communal
living
space
for
the
benefits
of
all
the
residents
and
improving
the
overall
standard
of
the
accommodation.
A
A
A
A
Those
being
c3b,
c3c
or
siri
generous
to
determine
the
use
class
of
each
property
and
ultimately,
whether
the
use
of
the
property
requires
planning
approval.
The
main
consideration
for
the
city
council
is:
do
the
occupants
of
the
property
live
together
as
a
single
household?
How
this
assessment
is
made
is
covered
later
in
the
presentation.
However,
in
summary
planning
permission
is
not
required
to
change
from
a
house
to
supported
accommodation
where
a
property
is
managed
by
a
registered
social
landlord
and
is
shared
by
three
to
six
people
living
together
as
a
single
household.
A
One
of
the
observations
in
the
scrutiny
brought
forward
guidance
provided
by
other
councils,
which
would
suggest
the
use
of
supported
accommodation
could
fall
within
the
ctu
news
class
as
a
residential
institution
without
the
group
for
their
findings
and
having
considered
the
guidance
published
by
nottingham
city
council,
we
acknowledge
the
ctus
class
does
include
uses
for
the
provision
of
residential
accommodation
and
care
to
people
in
need
of
care.
Other
than
you
know,
use
falling
within
the
c3
use
class.
A
However,
there's
use
class
order
makes
it
clear
that
this
class
includes
hospitals,
nursing
homes,
residential
schools,
colleges,
training,
centers
and
also
for
the
personal
care
of
children
based
on
evidence
gathered
throughout
our
investigations
of
supported
accommodation.
It's
very
clear
that
the
characteristics
are
very
different
to
the
siege,
seek
to
use
classes
set
out
in
the
order
and
providing
there
are
no
more
than
six
residents
living
as
a
single
household.
Supporting
accommodation
is
more
than
keeping
within
c
through
use
class.
Next
life.
A
So
the
question
remains
where,
where,
when
will
supported,
accommodation
require
planning
permission,
the
single
household
concept
is
something
you
wouldn't
you
wouldn't
necessarily
take
into
account
to
consider
the
use
of
supported
accommodation.
However,
from
a
planning
perspective,
there
is
no
legal
definition
of
what
constitutes
a
single
household.
A
A
At
this
point,
it's
also
important
to
highlight
the
strong
links
we
have
made
with
other
service
areas
as
a
result
of
the
pilot
which
has
provided
an
opportunity
for
these
impacts
to
be
addressed
more
effectively.
Please
collaborate.
This
collaborative
approach
introduced
by
the
pilot,
including
regular
tasking
group
meetings,
ensures
the
properties
generating
the
greatest
impact
are
always
prioritized.
A
A
A
This
interpretation
does
not
extend
to
c3b
or
c3c,
and,
on
this
basis,
the
relationship
test
and
the
occupiers,
seemingly
being
unrelated
without
family
ties
is
not
crucial.
Moreover,
if
we
decide
to
adopt
this
relationship
test
as
per
section
two
by
the
way
of
the
housing
act,
the
class
c3b
and
c3c,
it
will
more
than
likely
be
challenged
as
it
goes
beyond
what
is
actually
stated
in
the
use
class
order.
A
The
further
evidence
submitted
by
the
perivar
housing
action
group
from
city
council
was
also
found
to
be
specific
to
the
assessment
of
houses
in
multiple
occupations
and
therefore,
unless
the
definition
of
a
hmo
in
the
housing
act
has
changed.
This
is
not
something
we
can
apply
to
the
assessment
of
supported
accommodation,
no
connection,
please.
A
Crucially,
the
work
of
the
pilot
has
has
opened
up
clear
channels
to
quickly
gather
appropriate
evidence
in
using
a
combination
of
information
maintained
within
the
council
and
also
additional
information
direct
from
the
providers
and
our
own
internal
inspections.
The
five
factors
on
the
slide
can
be
evaluated.
A
C
A
A
We
recognize
evidence
submitted
during
the
scrutiny.
Review
appears
to
highlight
how
other
councils
may
be
assessing
supported
accommodation,
a
different
way
to
birmingham
which
may
bring
more
of
these
properties
under
planning
control.
However,
having
contacted
other
local
authorities,
including
nottingham
city
council,
it's
apparent
that
where
the
where
feedback
was
provided,
the
general
assessment
of
supported
accommodation
that
we
are
aware
of
would
make
no
difference
to
the
approach
we're
taking
in
birmingham
I'll
now
pass
over
to
euron.
It
will
go
on
to
explain
how
we
assess
properties
where
supported
accommodation
requires
planning
permission.
M
M
Go
through
this,
so
policy
dm12
will
apply
when
planning
permission
is
required
for
supported
accommodation,
as
james
has
already
set
out
when
that
is
triggered.
So
the
types
of
uses
that
it
applies
to
include
hostels,
care,
homes,
supported,
accommodation
and
other
forms
of
shared
housing,
that's
not
classed
as
a
hmo,
but
it
can
be
considered
generous
so
that
first
criteria
there
is
that
such
development
should
not
lead
to
an
unacceptable
adverse
impact
on
the
immunity
character,
appearance,
parking,
public
and
highway
safety
of
the
area.
Taking
into
account
the
cumulative.
C
M
Of
similar
uses
in
that
area,
and
so
that
last
bit
of
that
sentence
is
really
important,
similar
uses
will
cover
a
very
broad
range
of
specialist
accommodation.
That's
basically
any
residential
accommodation.
That's
not
family
accommodation
such
as
student
housing
such
as
you
know,
exempt
accommodation
and
hmos.
M
So
the
benefit
of
this
policy
is
that
it
will
apply
city-wide
to
every
part
of
the
city
and
a
specific
threshold
has
not
been
set,
so
applications
can
be
considered
on
a
case-by-case
basis.
For
example,
there
may
only
be
like
three
percent
of
such
uses
in
in
the
wider
neighborhood,
but
within
the
very
immediate
vicinity
of
an
application
site,
then
there
may
be
like
five
hostels
or
something
so
that
this
policy
provides
flexibility
to
take
into
account
the
different
scenarios.
M
The
policy
also
requires
proposals
for
supported
accommodation
to
provide
a
good
quality
living
accommodation,
so
that
includes
outdoor
immunity,
space,
sufficient
parking
and
it
does
not
adversely
affect
on
the
immunity,
character
and
appearance
of
the
area.
It
also
requires
that
proposals
are
located
in
sustainable
locations,
accessible
to
local
shops
and
services,
public
transport
and
other
facilities
and
in
regards
to
conversion
of
family
housing
to
supported
accommodation.
M
Okay
next
slide,
please
so
in
relation
to
hmos.
I
know
this
scrutiny
is
about
exempt
accommodation,
not
hmos,
but
it's
important
to
highlight
the
planning
policy
on
hmos,
because
there
are
linkages
with
exempt
accommodation
and
one
of
the
questions
raised
through
the
scrutiny
inquiry
is:
will
the
presence
of
existing
exempt
accommodation
in
the
area
be
considered
when
planning
or
assessing
hmo
applications?
M
And
yes,
it
can
be,
and
so
we
will
take
measures
to
factor
in
exempt
accommodation
when
assessing
the
cumulative
impacts
and
the
hmo
policy
says
that
hlo
should
not
form
more
than
10
of
the
residential
properties
in
the
100
meter,
radius
of
the
proposal
site,
but
because
exempt
accommodation
and
not
hnos.
We
have
to
identify
them
separately
on
our
mapping
system
that
they
will
be
considered
together
with
hmos
when
we're
assessing
that
ten
percent
threshold
and
we
are
in
the
process
of
mapping
all
the
the
seo
data.
M
So
any
proposals
for
hmos
must
also
not
result
in
a
family
house
being
sandwiched
in
between
two
hmos
or
non-family
residential
uses.
So
once
again,
this
will
include
exempt
accommodation,
and
any
proposals
of
hmos
must
also
not
result
in
three
or
more
in
a
row
being
created
and
that
three
in
a
row
can
include
other
non-family
residential
uses,
including
exempt
accommodation,
and
since
that,
so
this
is
a
new
policy.
It's
it's
been
strengthened,
existing
policies
sufficient
and
significantly,
and
once
again,
dm
eleven.
A
Yeah,
I'm
gonna
ask
first
awful
lot
of
they
just
spring
up
without
telling
anybody
and
they
operate.
You
know
for
quite
some
time.
What
do
you
do
in
those
situations
where
permission
is
required?
There's
lots
of
exempt
around,
they
haven't,
got
permission
and
then
councillors
get
notification
when
you
go
and
visit
and
they're
basically
encouraged
to
put
an
application
in
to
legitimize
what
they've
been
doing
for
some
time
illegally.
A
A
We
have
to
make
an
assessment
in
terms
of
whether
or
not
it's
something
we
could
support
so
just
because
they're
breaching
planning
control
in
terms
of
operating
without
the
outcome.
It's
not
actually
a
criminal
offence
to
do
that.
So
what
we
would
have
to
assess
is
what
the
likelihood
is
of
that
property
obtained
planning
permission
retrospectively
and
in
law
developers
are
entitled
across
the
board
to
apply
retrospectively
to
to
retain
to
obtain
planning
commission.
A
Triggered
as
far
as
far
as
that's
concerned
as
well,
so
so
we
can't
take
away
the
right
for
people
to
apply
retrospectively.
However,
clearly
it's
not
something
we
would
encourage,
and
the
risk
is
always
with
the
developer
and
the
owner
of
the
property
that
they
choose
to
actually
implement
something
without
paying
permission
in
the
first
place.
Okay,
you
and
then.
B
Hey
thanks
very
much
carl
and
yeah.
I
think
there's
families
in
the
city
screaming
out
about
the
accommodation
and
it
you
know,
may
not
be
an
illegal
crime,
but
it
appears
the
crime
to
me
to
have
these
beautiful,
victorian
homes
turned
into
hmos.
I
I
take
on
board
what
he's
saying
regarding
planning
about
exempt
accommodation,
etc,
but
a
lot
of
these
properties
need
conversion
to
get
in
to
become
exempt
accommodation.
B
Now,
surely
there
must
be
something
you
could
do
around
that
angle,
because
you
know
the
planning
you
can
see
what's
coming
this
planning,
this
planning
application
is
surely
changing
the
use
of
this
dwelling.
So
therefore,
that
I
know
you
have
to
stick
by
the
rules,
but
you
know
being
a
bit
creative.
B
You
could
find
some
way
cutting
up
that
up
its
source.
So
therefore,
that
building
really
can't
be
used
for
the
end
use
and
from
from
my
sort
of
limited
experience
of
these
things,
some
of
the
quality
of
the
work
that
you
see
is
done.
It's
generally
the
poor
standard.
Now
someone
signed
this
off
some
bill.
Some
building
inspector
has
said:
that's
fine,
and
yet
you
know
not
all
works
seem
to
be
carried
out
to
the
same
level,
and
so
I
was
just
wondering,
is
you
know
the
council
has
its
own
inspectors?
B
It
must
have
its
inspectors
that
have
proven
so
as
well.
Could
could
the
council
in
some
way
say
that
if
certain
properties
are
going
to
be
used
for
certain
reasons,
say
that
the
inspector
that
signs
it
off
must
come
from
an
approved
list
or
something
like
that,
because
some
of
the
works
that
you
see
carried
out,
it
doesn't
look
to
me
to
be
of
a
standard.
I
would
expect
to
be
seen
signed
up
at
times.
A
So
so,
although
obviously
in
an
ideal
world,
we
would
expect
it
to
be
a
high
quality
and
standard
of
work.
I
don't
think
there's
anything,
certainly
not
within
planning
and
unless
they
trigger
the
building
the
building
regulations
breach.
Then
we
can't
get
involved
in
conservation.
Well,
there's
this
again
into
internal
works.
Don't
don't
why
don't
they
damage?
You
know
important
sort
of
decorative
victorian
art,
so
if
it's
a
listed
building,
no,
no,
not
unlisted
just
conservation
area,
but
within
a
conservation
area,
there's
obviously
further
controls.
As
far
as
whether
or
not
you
require
planning
permission.
A
A
C
A
K
A
C
A
Early
stage,
but
in
terms
of
the
dna
breach
I
mean
what
we
would
always
do
is
obviously
advise
the
owners
that,
if
they
are
intending
to
bring
the
property
into
use
for
a
purpose
that
is
likely
to
require
planning
permission,
then
there's
no
guarantee
if
you're
going
to
obtain
this
permission
retrospectively,
but
but
because
there
is
potential
that
the
work
they're
carrying
out
could
actually
implement
a
legitimate
use,
which
is
lawful,
council
can't
put
a
barrier
in
in
the
way
at
that
stage.
Obviously,
it's
a
later
date.
B
Well,
I
mean
we
had.
I
had
one
in
our
board
where
house
had
purchased
the
the
level
of
alterations
and
the
planning
permission
that
was
applied
for
in
roof
space.
It
was
only
going
to
be
one
thing
and
they
denied
that
the
owners.
Of
course,
residents
were
up
in
arms,
big
response
coming
through
in
the
end
they
didn't
pursue
it
in
the
end.
A
I
All
right-
and
I
wanted
to
make
two
points,
and
the
first
one
I
wanted
to
make
was
about
the
retrospective
commission,
which
is
one
of
the
things
that
absolutely
infuriates
me,
and
I
understand
that
okay,
someone's
put
something
up
which
they
do,
if
any
permission
they
will
probably
get
by
the
commission,
but
in
the
meantime
they
have
got
it
up
without
applying
for
planning
permission
and
we're
always
told
by
planning
can't
do
anything
about
it
because
they
put
in
for
planning
permission
and
I'll
get
it
well,
and
I
want
to
know.
Is
that
really
true?
I
Is
it
the
law
that
says
we
can't
do
anything
about
it
or
is
it
birmingham
city
council's
policy,
because
it
is
a
latter,
we
could
change.
We
could
say
something
like
okay.
We
are
not
going
to
even
look
at
your
planning
application
until
you
take
out
what
you've
done
with
our
planning
commission.
So
I
want
to
know:
is
it
the
law
or
is
it
our
internal
policies
which
could
be
changed?
That's
the
first
thing.
The
second
thing
I
wanted
to
talk
about.
I
Oh
yeah
well
we're
looking
at
those
slides,
and
we
got
to
the
point
e,
which
said:
oh,
it
won't
result
in
you've,
got
to
make
sure
it
won't
result
in
a
loss
of
existing
use.
That
makes
an
important
contribution
to
the
city's
plans
and
strategies
so
affordable,
family
housing
is
surely
one
of
the
things
that
we
want
to
have
we're
always
saying:
there's
not
enough:
affordable
family
housing.
I've
got
an
estate,
the
bottom,
actually
lane
they're
they're,
modern
three-bedroom
council
houses
that
obviously
former
council
houses,
because
they
got
caught.
I
They're
obviously
meant
for
families
they'd
be
ideal
for
families
and
they're
being
altered
into
multi-occupations,
which
they're
patently
unsuitable.
So
that,
of
course,
made
me
excited
when
I
see
that,
but
of
course
that's
not
exempt
accommodation
is
it.
We
seem
to
have
muddied
the
waters
here
between
two
things:
hmos
and
exempt
accommodation,
because
exempt
accommodation
doesn't
need
planning
permission.
Does
it.
So
all
these
things
are
pointless.
I
We
want
to
know
what
could
be
done
about
exempt
accommodation
and-
and
I
did
feel
that
there,
where
I'm
getting
excited
about
something
and
then
think
yeah
it
doesn't
apply
to
this.
Why
are
we
talking
about
that?
We
want
to
do
something
about
exempt,
and
I
do
feel
that
in
lots
of
respect
not
just
in
this
meeting,
but
in
all
my
dealings
with
them
learning
pop
you
off.
Frankly,
that's
my
opinion
as
a
counselor
I
get
fed
up
with
being
bobbed
off
when
my
residents
are
really
upset
about
things
and,
as
you've
just
said
chairman.
A
I
think
is
an
understatement:
excellent
yeah
james,
never
take
these
things
personally,
babe
all
right,
yeah,
I
mean
talking
about
the
law
for
retrospective
planning
applications.
That
is
something
that's
in
the
legislation
to
allow
people
to
apply
retrospectively,
but
it's
always
a
matter
of
each
judging
each
case
on.
A
So
we
can't
take
away
that
right
and
if
we
were
to
serve
an
enforcement
notice
at
an
early
stage
before
they
started
to
operate,
then
that
opens
up
all
sorts
of
grounds.
As
far
as
appealing
against
that
enforcement
down
to
service
you've
taken
low
risk,
so
it
is
a
low
risk.
Well,
you
could
do
it,
but
you
know
it
depends.
It
depends
on
the
kind
of
the
impact
and
the
harm
associated
with
each
individual
case.
G
A
I
I
It's
about
this
retrospective
because
he
says
yes,
they've
got
the
right
to
to
apply
retrospectively
we're
not
denying
that.
My
point
is:
if
they
choose
to
take
that
right,
is
there
nothing
we
can
say
such
as
well
we're
not
going
to
listen
to
your
planning
application
until
you've
taken
that
stuff
down?
You
know
we
know
they've
got
the
right
to
do
it,
but
we
could
surely
make
life
difficult
and
it's
all
about
making
a
deterrent.
A
The
vast
majority
do
not
result
in
a
breach
of
planning
control
for
supported
exempt,
because
the
legislation
is
there
in
favor
of
the
developer.
As
far
as
the
supported
exempts
concern,
and
until
that
legislation
is
changed,
the
vast
majority
of
those
properties
are
not
actually
resulting
in
a
breach
of
planning.
A
So
there's
no
basis
for
us
to
stop
them
doing
the
work
from
an
enforcement
perspective,
if
ultimately,
there's
no
breach
of
planning
control,
because
they
would
have
a
right
of
appeal
and
that
that
appeal
would
be
very,
very,
very
simple,
because
they
would
appeal
on
the
basis
that
there
is
no
breach
of
planning
control
that
has
occurred.
So
we
would
be.
We
would
be
swamped
with
appeals
which,
which
wouldn't
be,
I
suppose,
when
the
conversion's
taking
place.
You
don't
know
whether
it's
going
to
be
well.
A
A
B
C
H
A
There's
no
there's
nothing
else
there
that
says
it
and
the
neighbors
dispute
that
there's
no
it's
a
bed
and
there's
no
license
on
the
system.
Anything
else.
So
do
you
actually
go
out
and
say
well,
where
is
the
proof
of
this,
and
if
you
can't
provide
clear
proof
that
it
was?
We
are
therefore
reporting.
We
will
turn
this
down
and
you
will
have
to
get
money.
A
A
A
C
A
Immediacy
of
the
surrounding
area,
so
someone
converted
a
property
without
kind
of
admission
to
a
hmo
and
leave
the
building
rob
along
the
street
and
on
the
is
that
I
think,
that's
a
bit
brilliant.
I
I
wouldn't
say
that's
section
two
one
by
territory,
because
it's
it's
part
and
parcel
of
that
work.
That's
going
on
so.
K
C
B
You
can
see
it
time
and
time
again
on
planning
issues
and
people
when
they're
builders,
when
they're
talking
about
doing
things
just
notifying
well,
the
other
side
goes
to
a
hillboat
or
something
like
that.
You'll
never
get
away
with
that
in
staffordshire,
and
it's
just
common
parlance
and
there
does
seem
to
be
a
defensiveness.
B
A
B
A
Okay,
bigger
picture
gene
who's,
very
young
and
still
sprightly
and
dominic,
who
looks
a
bit
worse
in
the
way
put
it
back
on
there.
Don't
worry
too
much
about
the
presentation,
because
I'm
very
very
unconscious
of
time.
So
I
think
we'll
just
make
a
few
key
points.
I
think
just
a
couple
of
things
that
are
quite
important:
contextually.
B
A
Around
some
of
the
things
that
I
don't
think
are
being
directly
referenced
today.
Actually
one
of
the
big
things
that
got
shelved
in
2018
was
massive
supported,
page
and
reforms.
That
would
have
been.
I
mean,
I
think
we
were
all
agreeing,
there's
no
magic
bullet
to
solve
any
of
this,
but
actually
way
back
in
2018.
A
There
was
major
reforms
that
were
proposed
to
give
local
authorities
control
around
the
supporting
house
and
provision
in
the
city
that
had
really
huge
pushback,
primarily
from
assets,
not
through
our
organization
personally,
but
that
was
a
really
big
thing
and
we've
seen
a
lot
of
the
things
being
exacerbated
since
that
period
of
time,
and
I
think
that
that
contextually
is
quite
important
to
people
local
authority
colleagues
have
had
to
deal
with
since
then.
The
second
point,
david
briefly
mentioned
it-
was
about
the
supporting
housing
benefit
regulations.
A
They
were
written
in
1996
and
I
think
at
the
time
they
were
written
to
be
temporary.
We're
now,
in
you
know,
2021
the
world
has
moved
on
the
things
around
league
space
providers,
an
umbrella
model
where
you
have
private
providers,
they
didn't
exist
and
supporting
housing
was
very
different,
and
I
think
when
we're
looking
at
what
the
acts
are
back
to
back
to
central
government,
this
is
really
really
important,
because
we
know
this
fee
is
there
about
wholesale
reform.
But
actually
there
are
things
we
can
do
within
the
existing
regulations.
A
That
would
really
make
a
huge
difference.
One
of
the
ones
that
has
been
referenced
today
is
what
we
mean
by
care,
support
and
supervision.
The
more
the
minimal
is
massively
unhelpful
to
benefit
colleagues,
that
could
literally
mean
you're
helping
someone
look
for
a
job
for
an
hour
a
week
and
you
can
technically
qualify
for
as
indentation,
because
that's
more
than
minimum
in.
A
Needs
tendencies:
those
type
of
things
are
really
important.
Also
that
we've
got
registered
providers
designating
their
accommodations
non-social
housing.
Well,
I
think
that
again
it
doesn't
allow
the
curvier
the
regulator
to
get
directly
engaged.
It
is
co-regulation
which
is
a
separate
issue.
I
think
all
of
those
things
really
need
to
be
looked
at
in
terms
of
what
we
have
just
the
final
point
I
mean
in
his
presentation.
I
think
the
really
important
thing
that's
happening.
B
A
A
Although
there's
been
a
lot
of
work
with
probation
colleagues
and
criminal
justice,
because,
frankly,
referrals
have
been
coming
in
from
all
over
the
country
at
various
points,
but
I
think
the
sporting
housing
needs
is
important.
What
it
will
throw
up
is
that
we've
got
really
high
concentration
in
certain
areas.
I
think
that's
been
articulated
already
today,
but
I
think
what
it
will
show
is
that
we
don't
need
the
amount
that
we've
got
now.
A
So
then
it's
what
now-
and
I
think
one
of
the
big
tasks
has
to
be
a
real
direct
engagement,
we've
provided
and
to
work
on
strategies
around
decommissioning
and
having
a
look
at
what
their
overall
portfolios
are.
I'm
not
fully
convinced
that
all
of
the
boards
of
these
organizations
have
fully
grasped
the
situation.
That's
here
in
the
city
and
actually,
if
they're
working
against
the
needs,
assessment
and
the
local
strategy
you'd
be
very,
very
odd
and
I
think
that's
some
dialogue
that
can
be
directly
picked
up
with
the
regulators
and
others.
A
A
C
L
I
just
I
just
want
to
add
loans
in
the
vanguard
of
this
new
model
and
this
new
approach,
so
you
are
out
there
and
you
are,
but
there
is
concern
nationally
and
there
is
concern
regionally.
So
certainly
within
the
combined
authority,
our
other
local
authorities
remember
that
I've
now
seen
this
tip
out.
So
you
are
there
for
a
number
of
reasons
that
have
been
discussed
today:
low,
very
low
local
housing.
L
No
awards,
but
you
have
low
lha
levels,
which
really
has
shifted
a
lot
of
private
landlords
into
this
model
underneath
so
so
you
are
there.
You
are
also
operating
with
at
least
one
hand
type
behind
your
back,
if
not
both,
quite
frankly,
because
the
recommendations
to
make
this
sick
have
got
to
be
the
central
government.
The
only.
A
L
Dodgy
ones
that
don't
so
actually
the
fact
whether
you've
got
awards
or
not.
The
fact
is,
if
you're,
a
good
provider
in
birmingham
and
you're
registered
you're
a
commission
provider,
it's
great
positive
benefit
service
is
really
good,
but
it's
that
thin
line
that
you
have
to
so
for
me,
the
recommendations
coming
out
of
this
of
all
the
work
that's
going
on
with
the
pilot
have
to
inform,
what's
recommended
to
central
government,
because
there
are
significant
changes
required.
K
L
Have
not
met
their
need
in
the
same
way
that
birmingham
has
always
tried
to
are
sending
people
around
and
they
are
coming
to
birmingham
and
they
will
fall
out
on
the
streets
of
boeing.
So
it
is
a
complex
issue
and-
and
I
think
we
absolutely
need
central
government
support-
you
know
it's
not
about
politics.
L
C
L
B
A
A
A
And
I
think
just
just
just
to
finish
the
point
I
think
gene
is
making
and
once
they've
been
made.
I
think
it's
really
important
to
look
at
where
we're
looking
at
actually
new
legislation,
but
actually
there's
some
quicker
wins
with
improving
the
existing
regulations,
which
are
a
much
less
harder
sell
to
government,
because
I
think
all
good
providers
will
have
no
problem
with
you
saying
this
is
what
good
care
sport,
supervision.
L
A
I
F
A
Okay,
well,
I'm
intellectually
exhausted,
as
I
say,
I'm
an
old
man.
My
brain
sells
on
what
they
used
to
be.
I
I
agree
with
you
agreeing
others
that
it
is
a
very,
very
important
issue
and
for
the
sake
of
a
few
days,
and
I'm
talking
about
a
few
days,
if
emma
can
get
everybody
together
and
we
might
even
do
it
remotely
to
make
it
easier,
because
you
know
looking
at
how
many
members
of
remote
and
ammonia
here
it
may
very
well
be
that
we
do
it
remotely
to
make
it
much
more
accessible.
C
L
I
J
A
A
L
A
Can
I
thank
everybody,
who's
participated
if
anybody
had
any
doubts
about
the
quality
of
offices
we've
got
in
birmingham
city
council,
I
think
today
it's
demonstrated
that
everybody's
at
the
top
of
their
game,
so
thank
you
very
much.
Indeed,
everybody
has
participated
and
to
my
charitable
sector,
colleagues,
who
I
hold
in
tremendously
high
esteem
as
I
work
for
the
charitable
sector
myself.
I
know
what
all
relations
you
are
compared
to.