►
From YouTube: Co-ordinating O&S Committee Informal
Description
1000 hours 9th July 2021.
Link for Meeting Agenda
https://birmingham.cmis.uk.com/birmingham/Meetings/tabid/70/ctl/ViewMeetingPublic/mid/397/Meeting/12286/Committee/406/Default.aspx
A
B
B
Be
aware
that
we
had
a
presentation
before
lockdown,
I
think
bl,
as
it's
now
called
about
some
serious
failings
in
in
city
council
financial,
adhere
adherence
to
financial
regulations
and,
as
a
result,
cyprus
have
been
advising
us
on
how
we
can
improve
and
we
thought
it
appropriate
to
have
an
update
presentation
today.
So
I'm
pleased
to
welcome
councillor
tristan
chatfield
cabinet
member
for
finance
and
resources.
C
And
actually
there
was
work
on
going
anyway.
But
off
the
back
of
that,
an
improvement
plan
was
put
in
place
and
that's
generated
a
huge
amount
of
work
both
for
the
finance
team,
but
also
for
everyone
across
the
organisation.
All
the
budget
holders
and
all
the
different
directorates
within
the
council
and
really
pleasingly.
C
We
are
now
have
been
found
by
sipfer
to
be
a
freestyle
authority,
which
I
think
is
extraordinary
a
degree
of
progress
that
we've
made
over
the
last
year,
and
I
think
it
really
it's
a
testament
to
all
the
hard
work
that
those
officers
have
put
in
to
get
us
there
and
I've
placed
on
record
my
thanks
for
sip
for
kind
of
guiding
us
and
showing
us
the
the
path
towards
a
better
position.
Obviously,
I
think
it's
probably
even
more
extraordinary,
given
the
circumstances
in
which
we're
operating
as
well.
C
Given
all
the
covert
thing,
I
think
it's
quite
remarkable
that,
through
the
leadership
of
of
becky,
we've
managed
to
keep
on
track
in
terms
of
this
improvement
journey.
So
I
think
it's
really
welcome
and
actually
ahead
of
time,
because
I
think
our
plan,
what
we
were
hoping
for
was
to
get
there
in
two
years
and
we've
actually
got
there
in
one.
So
I
think
that
again
is
a
substantial
achievement
for
the
council,
and
I
said
that
achievement
belongs
to
the
whole
council.
I
think
there
are,
I
suppose,
going
forward.
C
A
few
there's
there's
work
to
be
done
and
there's
still
obviously
there's
still
an
improvement
program
in
place
and
we're
still
doing
a
huge
amount
of
work
around
that
getting
us
to
a
point
where
we
can
be
as
sophisticated
as
we
possibly
can.
Given
the
sort
of
information
we
we
work
with,
and
the
stability
of
the
sort
of
financial
system
in
local
government,
which
at
best,
can
be
a
bit
ropey
dependent
on
government
grants,
etc
and,
of
course,
the
uncertainty
around
future
covert
impact
as
well.
C
So
we
are
moving
forward.
This
is
a
good
news,
but
it's
hard
there's
some
really
good
news
around
this,
and
it
puts
the
council
in
a
much
better
position.
There
are
financial
challenges
coming
down.
The
road
covered
will
have
an
impact
going
forward
around
loss
of
income,
especially
and
other
things,
and
obviously
there's
still,
as
I
said,
significant
uncertainty
around
local
government
finance
and
funding
more
generally
anyway,
but
with
that
I
think
I'll
hand
over
to
stuart.
If
I
can
perhaps
talk
for
a
little
bit
more
detail,
the
report
itself.
D
D
No
just
outside
startling,
if
that's
west,
but
certainly
right
in
the
middle
of
scotland
this
morning
and
the
weather
was
pretty
boring
as
they
would
see
up
here.
But
yes
thanks
thanks
very
much
for
the
the
opportunity
opportunity
to
present
this
morning
on
behalf
of
us
real
pleasure
to
be
working
with
birmingham
city
council,
I've
worked
in
public
public
financial
management
for
nearly
30
years,
and
I've
done
a
bit
over
90
of
these
assessments.
D
We
assessed
birmingham
using
a
financial
management
model,
five-star
model
that
we
use
globally
and
at
that
time,
in
april
2019,
we
assessed
birmingham
city
council
as
attaining
a
status
of
one
star
out
of
five,
with
a
an
average
statement
scoring
of
1.91,
which
surprised
us
we
have,
we
were
confident
in
the
assessment
we
had
sufficiency
of
evidence.
We
spent
nearly
six
months
compiling
the
assessment,
so
we
thought
we
were
on
firm
ground,
but
nevertheless
it
was
certainly
a
shock
to
to
those
in
finance
a
surprise
anyway
to
those
in
finance.
D
Effectively
carried
out
the
financial
management
capability
review,
I
think
it's
on
the
first
page
of
the
second
page
of
this.
The
slide
down.
That's
in
front
of
you,
yeah,
basically
same
methodology
as
the
first
assessment,
but
we
did
a
deeper
dive
into
financial
resilience.
Many
local
authorities
really
struggle
with
balance
and
financial
resilience
with
demands
and
income
that
is
coming
through
the
door
at
the
moment.
D
Some
authorities
that
are
really
struggling
and
distressed.
Indeed,
so,
along
with
our
financial
management
review,
based
on
what
we
did
in
2018
2019,
we
carried
a
quick,
deep
dive
financial
resilience
review
as
well
so
packages
together.
It
comes
from
the
same
the
same
sources
of
evidence
going
to
the
next
slide.
Please,
in
terms
of
financial
resilience,
we
look
at
a
number
of
things.
D
D
D
We
found
the
overall
strength
of
financial
resilience
of
birmingham
to
be
moderate,
which
was
significantly
better
than
what
we
we
saw
in
2019
we'd.
Have
the
next
slide,
please
in
terms
of
financial
management,
financial
management
capabilities,
significantly
improved
beyond
what
we
thought
would
have
been
possible
within
two
years,
and
indeed
turning
some
of
the
real
weaker
areas
into
a
much
stronger
position,
so
much
so
that
we
believe
and
suffer
that
the
the
pace
of
change
and
the
real
grip
on
delivering
improvement
is
highly
commendable.
D
The
average
statement
scoring
within
our
model
would
now
place
birmingham
within
just
within
the
reach
of
the
trump
cartel,
just
within
the
top.
Quartile,
which
is
a
remarkable
achievement
from
where
it
was
two
years
ago,
and
the
star
rating
has
has
moved
from
one
star
to
three
star
which
again
is
it
is
a
real
testament
to
the
work
that's
been
carried
out
and
driven
by
finance
professionals
and
the
services
too.
D
Just
to
give
you
an
example
of
where
birmingham
was
in
april
2019.
If
I
can
go
to
the
next
slide,
we've
got
a
high-level
matrix
here
and
the
the
model
has
30
statements
and
we
map
these
30
statements
of
global
good
practice
against
poor
management,
dimensions,
leadership,
people
processes
and
stakeholders,
and
we
also
map
it
against
financial
management.
Styles.
D
Delivering
accountability
is
the
traditional
stewardship
style,
which
is
should
be
very,
very
strong
in
terms
of
the
the
the
overarching
legislative
framework
for
local
government
and
the
guiding
principles
of
treasury
and
safa.
Indeed,
so,
scores
should
be
relatively
strong
and
in
delivering
accountability
over
the
management
dimensions
it
gets.
It
gets
a
bit
tougher
when
you
move
down
towards
supporting
performance
so
supporting
performances.
This
is
where
the
financial
capability
drives
the
achievement
of
organizational
objectives.
D
Obviously,
delivering
accountability
was
the
strongest
which
we
we
expected,
but
obviously
supporting
people
was
a
bit
of
a
surprise.
To
us.
Supporting
performance
was
about
the
surprise,
given
that
the
extent
of
drop
between
the
stewardship
delivering
accountability
and
the
ability
of
the
organization
to
support
the
services
and
delivering
their
objectives.
D
D
Again,
even
though
it's
read,
we
would
be
confident
that
that
will
change
quickly
as
the
organizations
move
over
to
the
organization
moves
over
to
new
erp
and
that
in
itself,
getting
that
up
and
running
will,
let's
hope,
to
change
the
scores
and
and
in
those
two
statements
and
I'll
change,
that
raid
accordingly
could
have
the
next
one.
Please.
D
If
keeping
the
same
piece
of
change,
we
would
be
confident
that
for
us,
business
partnering
and
the
the
finance
function
itself
will
be
our
center
of
excellence,
given
the
pace
of
change,
so
certainly
one
of
the
biggest
areas,
the
weaknesses
that
we
we
saw
was
accountability
in
the
services
for
financial
management
performance
and
the
statement
p5.
That
has
changed
significantly
still
some
way
to
go.
But
you
know
it's
improved
markedly
and
I
think
the
organization
can
have
confidence
or
better
confidence
in
the
ability
of
budget
holders.
D
Service
managers,
heads
of
service
in
in
the
accountability
for
financial
performance,
they're
they're
really
running
it
now
for
the
next
slide
process,
change
and
delving
accountability,
there's
there's
marginal
improvement
very
difficult
to
move
up
in
these.
There
was
already
some
half-decent
scoring
in
here,
but
I'd
just
like
to
to
make
comment
on
budget
settings
is
improved
significantly
far
more
bottom-up
and
budget
setting
there.
Treasury
management
is
moving
towards
example,
stages.
So
what
I
have
to
say,
it
really
is
amongst
the
high
scores,
we've
seen
actively
managing
budgets
every
year.
D
bombing
always
had
relatively
robust
assurance
processes
there
they
are
the
same.
They
moved
on
slightly
and
on
accounts.
Final
accounts
closed
down,
it's
an
excellent
place
in
pr9,
so
very
difficult
to
move
forward.
There's
nine
statements
in
that
area,
but
there
has
been
a
consistent
improvement
still
somewhat
to
do
in
the
transactional
finance
world
I'll,
be
talking
about
that
in
a
minute
cloud.
The
next
slide,
please
yeah,
perfect
support
and
performance
and
transformation
and
process
is
again
quite
difficult.
The
the
medium
term
financial
plan
significantly
improved.
D
D
D
That's
there,
given
the
plans
that
are
in
in
train
for
a
new
erp,
the
final
slide
on
the
detail:
delivering
accountability
on
stakeholders.
This
is
all
about
confidence
in
the
organization
and
its
ability
to
demonstrate
fiscal
discipline
and-
and
that's
massively
changed
in
two
years
from
a
two
to
three-
the
sources
that
we
we
get
to
look
at
on.
This
is
external
order.
D
Speaking
with
external
audit,
they
are
a
far
more
comfortable
place
with
the
city
council,
so
much
so
that
from
a
potential
section,
one
one
four
position
that
then
you
know
birmingham
is
now
regarded,
as
is
is
in
far
better
shape.
Now,
and
certainly
external
auditors
are
looking
elsewhere,
so
value
for
money,
slight
improvement
there
a
bit
more
to
go
heading
in
the
direct
the
right
direction
grab
the
next
slide.
Please.
D
D
Sometimes
we
see
organizations
local
local
government
organizations
that
have
a
financial
strategy
and
it
really
is
a
kind
of
means
to
an
end
and
as
much
as
it
it
misses
out
the
crucial
bit,
which
is
supporting
objectives,
the
delivery
of
objectives.
Well,
certainly,
the
financial
plan
that
you
have
the
objectives
is
core.
D
I
mentioned
indian
monitoring
forecasting
and
the
ability
to
deal
with
left
fuel
shocks
quickly.
Certainly
their
treasury
management
is
certainly
one
of
the
best
we've
seen,
and
it
really
is
great
for
us
to
come
in
and
see
that
suffer
zone.
Guideline
guidance
is
is
more
than
applied,
governance
and
risk
is,
is
in
good
shape
as
well.
D
Next
slide,
please.
It
is
for
development
for
further
development,
there's
five
here
and
in
priority
order.
They
relate
to
accountability
and
competency.
Financial
financial
management,
competency
framework,
there's
still
somewhat
to
do
in
that,
but
there's
been
significant
strides
made
within
the
two
years.
Lessons
of
accountability
when
how
to
budget
holders
has
really
focused
focused
minds
and
sharpened
the
realization
that
service
performance
and
financial
performance
should
really
be
part
of
the
one
overall
service
performance.
D
So
the
whilst
there's
been
good
work
here,
we
are
confident
that
there'll
still
be
more
grip
on
accountability
in
the
next
year,
so
transactional
finance
in
terms
of
performance
on
on
the
the
typical
transactions
of
paying
bills,
generating
income
etc.
In
terms
of
recovery,
there's
still
work
to
be
done
in
that
very
confident
as
part
of
the
target
operating
model
for
finance,
then
that
will
be
significantly
improved.
D
Asset
management
is
a
difficult
area
for
virtually
all
the
organizations
that
we
look
at
at
this
precise
point
in
time,
and
it's
no
different
in
birmingham.
The
ability
to
to
sway
assets
to
to
basically
minimize
overheads
on
assets
and
maximize
disposal
costs
very,
very
difficult
area,
particularly,
and
what
we
see
will
be
a
difficult
post-covered
environment,
finance
team
team
structuring
is
still
on
the
way
through
the
target
operating
model,
and
we
were
confident
that
that
will
produce
the
right
balance
of
skills
for
the
organization
and
finally,
procurement.
D
There
is
a
target
operating
model
and
project
for
specifically
for
procurement,
and
that
will
optimize
both
capacity
and
good
practice
and
particularly
in
contract
management.
The
front
end
of
basic
procurement
is
is
more
than
adequate.
It's
it's
the
final
aspects
of
in
in
contract
management,
which
is
very,
very
difficult.
Most
organizations
struggle
with
that
grabbed
out
the
next
play.
Please.
D
D
D
There's
been
a
real,
a
real
benefit
in
managing
not
just
reserves,
but
in
terms
of
covered
finances
being
very,
very
strict
and
how
that's
accounted
for
with
real
precision
in
there.
We
don't
normally
see
that
at
the
organizations
we've
been
looking
at
in
terms
of
the
overall
movement,
the
three
star
is
highly
commendable
and
there's
arrange
that
there's
a
range
of
things
that
really
stand
out
for
us
in
terms
of
the
financial
strategy.
D
D
D
This
is
a
start
line
that
we
would
basically
take
as
a
our
overall
assessment
for
birmingham.
It's
moved
beyond
just
sound
and
basic
financial
management
capability
towards
highly
effective
financial
management
capability
and
again
it
is
a
real
pleasure
to
see
an
organization
pick
up
on
the
areas
that
we've
identified
as
as
needing
strengthening
and
actually
dealing
with
it
appropriately.
D
Given
what
has
happened,
the
piece
of
change
and
if
that's
maintained,
we
would
be
confident
that
that
birmingham
will
have
transformed
itself
from
a
one
star
to
four
star
and
in
a
relatively
short
period
of
time,
which
is
really
quite
remarkable
so
happy
to
to
to
to
answer
any
questions
on
the
presentation.
Ladies
and
gentlemen,
but
also
happy
to
answer
any
questions
on
the
the
report
that's
dated
may
2021
before
I
do
that.
D
C
C
Can
I
just
make
a
couple
of
comments
of
accounts?
That's
kind
of
thing
I
think,
is
probably
important.
I
think
one
of
the
things
we
haven't
really
talked
about
is
the
importance
of
the
erp
program
that
the
net,
the
kind
of
several
of
the
next
steps
and
work
on
the
improvement
program
is
kind
of
dependent
on
getting
that
system
in
place
and
up
and
operational
properly
and
obviously
members
will
be
aware.
C
We've
talked
about
it
at
this
meeting
how
complex
and
how
how
much
institutional
effort
is
having
to
be
put
into
making
sure
that
system
is
up
and
running.
So
that's
that's
a
big
part
for
us
and
I
guess
something
the
committee
who
wants
to
keep
her
keep
an
eye
on
going
forward
in
terms
of
those
next
steps.
I
think
a
couple
of
other
things,
one
of
the
on
the
procurement,
especially,
I
think,
there's
a
lot
of
focus
on
this.
C
I
think
it's
worth
just
mentioning
quickly
about
the
return
sort
of
category
management
approach
so
moving
to
a
system
where
individual
procurement
officers
hold
a
kind
of
have
become
experts,
in
particular
areas
of
council
business,
and
I
think
that
is
a
significant
change
for
us
organization
and
that
is
being
delivered
at
the
moment.
But
I
am
I'm
confident
with
a
new
ad
in
place
as
well
coming
shortly.
That
service
will
really
start
to
start
to
motor
in
terms
of
making
improvements.
C
We
need
around
that
linking
through
into
contract
management,
because
I
think,
without
without
the
category
management
approach,
it's
difficult
to
get
a
proper
grip
on
the
contract
management
side
as
well,
and
support
service
areas
effectively
around
contract
management
just
on
the
assets
piece
as
well.
I
think
there's
a
couple
of
things
on
that
and
I'm
sure
becky
would
love
to
talk
at
length
around
this.
C
C
We
obviously
hold
a
large
number
of
assets
around
the
city
which
we
use
and
being
corporate
landlord
to
all
of
those
and
bringing
that
together
in
one
function,
I
think,
is
really
important
and
that
ties
and
then
the
second
part
of
the
assets
piece,
I
suppose,
is
what's
in
the
delivery
plan,
which
is
about
how
we
get
best
value
from
assets.
We
hold
they're,
not
not
our
office
buildings
assets
we
hold
generally.
C
You
know
we
obviously
own
staggeringly
large
amounts
of
land
around
the
city
and
buildings
and
all
sorts
of
things
and
how
we
get
best
value
out
of
those
rather
than
simply
selling
them
out
into
the
open
market.
Should
we
want
to
do
that
so
there's
stages
of
development
we
can
go
through
in
order
to
get
better
yield
from
those
assets
and
whether
that's
just
getting
planning
permission
on
the
sites
or
clearing
the
sites
or
whatever
it
might
be.
C
Each
one
of
those
steps
adds
value
into
that
asset
and
then
it's
about
determining
which
stage
we
want
to
then
dispose
of
that
asset
or
keep
it
keep
it
for
ourselves
and
there's
some
some
work
going
on
around
our
property
company
about
how
we
might
want
to
do
that,
but
all
of
those
things
and
more
sophisticated
approach
to
assets
that
we're
hoping
to
to
develop
as
we
go
forward.
But
I
think
that's
probably
enough
for
me
so
yeah
over
the
questions
for
myself,
stuart
or
becky
as
well.
F
Okay,
fight,
fair
do's,
stuart.
Thank
you
for
the
presentation.
It's
I'm
not
from
the
finance
background,
so
it's
very,
very
difficult
as
an
elected
member,
if
you're
not
in
the
finance
world,
to
actually
get
a
grasp
of
everything,
that's
coming
your
way
in
a
presentation,
but
you
you
did
that
very
well.
So
you've
told
me
a
lot,
I'm
sure
there's
a
lot.
I
don't
know
about,
and
I'm
sure,
unless
you're
in
that
field
and
you
dig
in
deep
or
deep
dive
as
it
seems
to
be
the
new
quote.
F
F
I
just
want
to
move
over
to
something
you
said
earlier.
You
said
birmingham
is
in
a
better
place
as
far
as
fiscal
discipline
is
concerned,
and
you
mentioned,
or
you
touched
on
auditors
now
I
don't
sit
on
audit
committee,
but
I
know
that
in
the
past
we
have
challenged
the
council
because
I
think
it
was
about
march
2019.
F
I
think
I'm
right
there.
We
had
grant
thornton
do
an
external
audit
review
now,
bearing
in
mind
birmingham
had
three
of
those
in
two
years
and
compared
nationally
to
other
local
authorities.
That
was
quite
a
concern
and
a
challenge
from
us
politically
to
the
group,
so
you
might
want
to
retouch
on
that.
I
just
want
to
go
back
into
the
bulk
of
the
report.
F
I
think
it
was
page
27..
It
talked
about
432
million
total
expenditure
on
capital
projects.
Now
I
don't
expect
you
to
give
me
a
detailed
breakdown.
Maybe
one
of
the
officers
wants
to
touch
on
it,
investment
in
what
I
suppose
is
my
question:
what
is
the
432
million,
the
bulk
of,
and
in
the
current
climate
we
are
with
covid?
It
seems
like
a
lot
of
money
in
a
lot
of
investments.
So
my
question
to
a
specific
officer
is:
what
is
the
return
on
that
investment?
F
F
Now
I
may
have
missed
it
in
the
report
and
it
doesn't
go
down
into
the
detail,
but
I'm
always
concerned
about
savings
that
are
made,
that
we
don't
become
a
top-heavy
organization
and-
and
I
remember
working
at
a
firm
many
many
years
ago-
and
there
seemed
to
be
a
very
top-heavy
organization
strategy
and
lots
of
the
lower
level
management
was
being
cut
out
of
the
system
for
those
savings.
And
you
often
find
that-
and
I
don't
know
if
one
of
the
officers
wants
to
touch
on
that.
F
Because
fine
have
you
just
nc
panel
people
have
the
high
level
people,
but
is
there
a
cost
financially
or
repercussions
to
the
low-level
staff
within
the
organization?
Because
what
we
don't
want
is
too
many
chiefs
and
not
enough
soldiers
moving
forward,
and
I
don't
know
if
there's
somebody
who
can
answer
that
for
me.
Many
thanks.
B
D
D
D
D
Notwithstanding
the
accuracy
of
the
final
accounts,
the
robustness
of
the
financial
position,
but
also
the
overall
assurance
within
the
organization
and
most
aspects
of
value
for
money.
So
basically
the
virtuous
circle
here
in
two
years
and
the
external
auditor
would
be
failing
in
their
statutory
duty
and
in
best
practice,
external
audit
process
to
basically
not
flag
up
anything
that
there's
a
concern.
So
if
things
are
have
changed
and
there's
a
a
high
level
or
a
better
level
of
confidence
there.
D
B
G
G
G
So
if
I
just
start
with
asset
management
in
in
terms
of
of
what's
happening
on
asset
management
generally-
and
I
can
pick
up
corporate
landlord
as
part
of
that
we've
got
the
delivery
plan
that
went
to
cabinet
back
in
november
2020
and
we've
got
full
delivery
plan
program
management
around
that
one
of
the
major
work
streams
in
that
is
inclusive
growth
and
and
within
that
assets
and
there's
a
couple
of
dimensions
to
that.
Some
of
it
is
abs,
you're,
absolutely
right.
G
Councillor
clancy
is
around
asset
disposals
in
this
year,
because
there
is
40
million
pounds
worth
of
capital
transformation,
that's
being
funded
from
capital
receipts,
and
that's
a
government
directive
that
you
can
use
capital
receipts
if
you're
funding
capital
transformation.
However,
it
has
to
be
absolutely
clear
that
it's
within
the
definition
of
that
so
finance
are
holding
the
ring
on
that
to
ensure
that
we
are
only
capitalizing
transformation
where
it
is
transformation,
that's
leading
to
revenue
savings.
G
So
there
is
a
65
million
pounds,
capital
disposal
program
that
was
approved
by
february
cabinet
by
the
the
budget
council.
Okay,
that
is
all
going
through
a
governance
program
that
sits
within
the
delivery
plan.
Now
that
all
of
those
are
being
worked
up.
That
disposal
program
is
what
being
worked
up
into
an
enhanced
business
case.
That's
coming
forward
to
cabinet
and
I'll
come
forward
to
cabinet
in
september
of
this
year,
so
you'll
see
that
coming
forward
and
you'll
you'll
see
all
of
the
detail
behind
that.
G
Okay,
broader
than
that,
there
is
a
huge
there's,
a
whole
work
stream
within
this,
the
inclusive
growth
delivery
plan
program,
which
is
around
development
development
sites,
where
the
city's
going.
How
we're
going
to
you
know
revitalize
the
city.
You
know,
because
obviously,
we've
been
through
a
significant
pandemic,
so
again
any
any
outputs
from
that
it
will.
It
will
obviously
be
significant,
financially
will
be
coming
through
to
cabinet
as
well,
because
it
sets
policy
and
it
has
significant
financial
implications.
G
G
Now
the
idea
there
is
to
and
and
that's
going
to
come
under
the
work
stream
that
I'm
the
senior
responsibility
officer
for
fit
for
future
council,
which
is
another
work
stream
in
that
delivery
plan.
So
it's
all
in
there
have
a
look
now.
The
corporate
landlord
is
essentially
giving
one
single
point
of
leadership
across
and
management
across
all
operational
assets.
At
the
moment,
operational
assets
sit
within
individual
services,
nobody's
got
oversight
of
it
and
that's
that's.
That's
not
good
enough
for
birmingham
we're
pulling
it
all
together,
so
it's
all
absolutely
managed.
G
G
Okay,
so
that
that
then
gives
us
that
whole
over
oversight-
and
that's
really
important
for
the
city
as
well,
because
it's
important
for
communities
what
assets
sit
in
what
communities
it
brings
in
the
ward
dimension
to
it
as
well,
and
the
community
dimension
as
well
as,
obviously
you
know,
efficiency
of
managing
that
massive
asset
portfolio,
that
is,
that
is
just
starting.
So
just
so,
you
know
that
is.
That
is
not
in
any
way
in
implementation.
Yet
that's
in
right!
We
need
to
get
on
with
this.
G
We
need
to
do
it
so
that
that
will
also
be
coming
forward,
wherein
there's
any
policy
or
financial
implications
that
will
be
coming
forward
through
this
group
to
need
to
to
to
cabinet
as
well.
So
just
so
you
know,
that's
that's
a
that's
that's
happening,
and-
and
that's
that's
my
responsibility,
the
other
area
that
I
wanted
to
speak
a
bit
more
about.
G
That's
okay
is
around
procurement
and
contract
management,
because
I
know
this
has
been
an
issue
for
the
authority
for
a
while
now
so
what
what
we're
doing
we're
doing
it
through
ons
resources
as
well,
we
have
a
number
of
informal
meetings
that
are
just
dedicated
to
this.
It's
of
such
significance
to
to
the
authority,
given
that
we
spend
with
third
parties
in
excess
of
400
million
pounds
a
year
this
this
needs
oversight.
G
So
again,
this
is
something
that
we're
pulling
together,
but
from
a
starting
with
commissioning,
so
each
service
commissions
they
set
what
they
want
procurement
service
to
go
to
market
with.
So
what
we've
done
is
we're
working
with
adult
social
care,
we're
one
of
the
biggest
commissioners
first
and
we're
so
procurement
and
comm
and
commissioning
are
working
together
on
this.
G
We're
looking
at
how
we
set
up
commissioning
to
be
the
very
best
for
birmingham,
so
we've
we've
put
in
place
commit
a
process
with
gateways
in
it,
gateways
that
allow
member
input
at
the
earlier
stage
of
commissioning
so
that
we've
got
members
priorities
coming
in
there,
so
the
relevant
cabinet,
member
and
broader.
You
know
it
should
it
should
it
be
needed,
set
out
what
the
commissioning
requirements
are.
What
do
we
want
for
the
citizens
of
our
city?
So
these
are
the
commissioning
requirements.
They
go
through
several
gateway
processes
before
they
go
into
procurement.
G
Once
once
it's
been
through
procurement
and
contracts
rewarded,
then
it
becomes
a
contract
management
issue.
Now
all
three
of
those
areas
are
being
worked
on
together
and
all
three
need
significant
improvement,
and
that's
that's
that's
where
we're
going
with
it.
So
we're
doing
a
pilot
with
all
of
that
through
adult
social
care,
because
and
they
do
public
health
as
well,
because
they're
one
of
the
biggest
commissioners
once
we've
got
that
process,
licked
working,
absolutely
what
what's
needed
for
the
city,
we're
then
rolling
that
out
across
the
other
directorates.
G
So
it's
not
just
about.
I
know
we
use
the
terminology
of
procurement,
but
if,
if
we
get
commissioning
right,
the
rest
should
be
relatively
straightforward.
Contract
management
is
quite
a
different
issue.
I
say
commissioning
and
procurement
that
that
that
that
should
that's,
that's
that's
doable.
Contract
management
is
another
issue,
so
we
have
a
number
of
senior
managers
and
middle
managers
here
who
manage
contracts
that
needs
to
be
seen
as
a
technical
skill
in
its
own
right,
rather
than
just
an
add-on
to
the
job.
Okay.
So
that's
that's!
G
That's
where
we're
going
with
all
of
that
training
that
awareness.
This
is
how
we
manage
contracts,
because
otherwise
we
can't
guarantee
that
everything
we've
commissioned
and
procured
is
actually
going
to
deliver
and
that's
also
really
important.
I
know
for
members
from
a
social
value
perspective
because,
as
you
know,
birmingham's
gone
big
on
social
value
for
a
number
of
years
now,
in
fact,
it
was
looked
on
as
a
center
of
excellence.
G
I
I
know
about
eight
years
ago
when
birmingham
led
on
this,
because
I
was
working
elsewhere
and
we
were
all
popping
down
to
birmingham
to
see
how
well
they
were
doing
it
and-
and
it
was,
it
was
definitely
a
centre
of
excellence.
It's
about
managing
that
through
to
to
delivery
through
contract
management,
so
there's
a
whole
work
stream
there
being
worked
on
as
as
councillor
chatfield
mentioned.
You
know:
we've
jnc
have
approved
an
assistant
director
role,
its
own
right
on
procurement,
which
is
where
birmingham
was
a
number
of
years
ago.
G
It
absolutely
needs
that
senior
leadership,
but
it
also
has
program
management
around
it
for
the
delivery
of
the
target
operating
model
and
procurement,
so
procurement's
on
its
way
up.
We
want
it
to
be
best
in
class,
exactly
like
you
know,
top
quartile
like
finances,
so
that
that's
well
on
its
way
to
delivery.
G
The
commissioning
gateway
process
and
the
work
we're
doing
with
commissioning
will
be
rolled
out
across
the
whole
organization,
and
we
will
be
doing
technical
training,
as
goes
contract
management,
to
make
sure
that
contract
managers
actually
understand
what
they're
being
asked
to
do
so
that
that
was
where
I
was
going
to
leave
it.
I
hope
I've
helped.
G
B
Hello,
I
just
wanted
to
say
that
I'm
conscious
that
your
chair,
the
resources,
overview
and
scrutiny
committee-
and
I
want
to
thank
you
for
allowing
us
to
to
have
this
presentation
today,
because
I
know
it's
it's
it's
your
committees
you're
leading
on
this.
So
I
just
wanted
to
say
that
before
you,
you
started.
Okay,.
H
Thanks
chair
a
couple
of
points,
I
wanted
to
raise
they've
already
been
answered
by
back
here
and
tristan
on
erp
and
procurement,
but
there's
a
couple
of
issues.
The
questions
for
stuart,
the
finance
team
structuring
you've
got
on
there.
Is
it?
Is
there
gaps
or
are
we
talking
about
restructuring?
Moving
people
around
the
key
to
all
the
finances
is
the
team
that
play
the
role
of
finance
and
we've
come
a
long
way.
H
H
D
Certainly
on
the
finance
structure-
and
this
is
an
emerging
and
evolving
position,
because
there
is
a
very
effective
target
operating
model
for
finance
and
in
train.
We
would
be
confident
that
the
an
optimal
structure
will
be
created
from
that
it's
a
case
of
the
organization
creating
the
the
right
right
skills
in
specific
areas
and
that's
been
substantially
achieved,
but
in
terms
of
a
permanent
way
forward.
D
The
the
section
151
and
the
deputy
section
151
had
the
foresight
to
bring
in
the
very
best
available
and
staff,
with
specific
technical
skills,
they've
hit
the
ground
running
over
the
last
two
years.
The
job
now
is
to
embed
those
skill
sets
within
the
permanent
finance
structure
and
the
target
operating
model
is
is
doing
that
so
that
that's
basically
a
work
in
progress,
but
it's
starting
off
from
a
very
good
base
in
terms
of
the
the
getting
to
the
the
four
star.
The
report
identifies
the
development
areas.
D
D
So
the
budget
holders
are
effectively
using
their
budget
wisely,
knowing
that,
if
they
don't
need
it
that
it
gets
returned
or
if
basically,
they
they
their
plans
for
spend
or
achievement
of
income
are
not
going
to
happen
very
quickly.
Reporting
that
and
having
a
very
close
relationship
with
finance
business
partnering
so
effectively.
The
accountability
side
of
financial
performance
will
happen.
D
Transactional
finance
there's
plans
within
the
tom
to
move
that
forward
and
progress
that
asset
management,
team,
structuring
and
procurement
have
been
dealt
with
so
in
terms
of
the
direction
of
travel,
the
trajectory
of
it
all
that
will
effectively
achieve
allow
the
achievement
of
full
staff.
So
this
natural
development
of,
what's
in
training
at
the
moment,
will
do
that.
But
obviously
you
can't
you
can't
take
that
for
granted.
You
can't
be
complacent
and
obviously
there
needs
to
be
the
same
level
of
pace
and
grip
and
all
of
it
to
achieve
full
staff.
D
We'd
be
confident,
and
our
caveat
is
as
long
as
the
the
same
pace
and
the
resources
that
have
been
made
available
are
continued
and
the
support
that
the
members
give
has
continued.
Then
we
we
don't
think
that
the
achievement
of
foster
is
certainly
beyond
birmingham,
and
these
development
areas
in
terms
of
priority
order
will
be
substantially
addressed
and
that
will
enable
force
staff.
The
the
strengths
are.
There
are
not
not
strengths
that
are
easily
going
to
loosen
the
light.
D
The
way
when
you
put
in
strong
financial
leadership,
it
tends
to
move
itself
forward
as
a
momentum
and
an
impetus
all
of
its
own.
So
we
would
be
confident
that
there
will
be
movement
in
the
development
areas.
Some
of
them
are
incremental
our
best.
The
best
organizations
you
know
will
come
across
and
globally
have
they've
had
some
moderate
scores
and
incremental
change
and
improvement.
D
So
no,
it's
not
all
about
getting
greens
and
threes
like
threes
out
of
four.
It's
about
making
solid
progress
and
across
and
a
consistent
progress
across
the
whole
range
of
30
statements
in
in
the
model,
and
they
cover
a
full
spectrum
of
financial
management
from
budget
setting
and
overall
financial
strategy
and
you'll
be
all
aspects
of
risk.
Governance.
Final
accounts
closed
down,
transactional
finance
procurements
in
there,
so
the
whole
gamut
and
the
people,
the
people
side
of
capability,
the
financial
competencies
needed
within
the
services,
not
just
in
the
core
finance
function.
D
So
no!
No.
We
are
we're
delighted
to
see
the
approach
taken
by
birmingham
and
the
way
that
we
feel
that
these
development
areas
are
going
to
be
tackled.
It's
a
very
difficult
operating
environment.
At
the
moment,
the
service
pressures
will
undoubtedly
change
post
covered,
but
birmingham
is
a
good
place
to
deal
with
that
and
as
well
as
dealing
these
development
areas.
C
Yeah
just
a
couple
of
things,
if
I
can
just
around
the
the
finance
service
itself,
although
I
think
it's
worth
it,
it
is
worth
noting.
I
think
the
report
relates
the
whole
organization,
which
I
think
is
important.
It
comes
to
this
committee,
as
well
as
to
the
resources
committee,
because
it
is,
it
is
ultimately
about
ownership
and
we
need
everyone
and
every
part
of
the
organization
to
be
on
board,
but
just
in
terms
of
finance
service,
there
is
some
work.
C
Stewart's
already
mentioned
the
staffing
and
how
much
progress
has
been
in
terms
of
staffing,
but
we
are
keen
to
move
to
more
position.
More
permanency
members
will
be
aware,
there's
quite
a
significant
number
of
interims
in
the
organization
we
want
to
move
on
to
more
permanent,
stable
staff,
putting
obviously
for
the
benefit
long-term
benefit
of
the
organization,
and
we
are
doing
that
and
that
process
is
already
underway.
C
Although
recruitment,
I
think
in
some
of
these
technical
specialist
areas
isn't
easy
and
it's
not
just
finance,
I
think
we're
seeing
the
same
in
areas
like
planning
etc,
where
there
is
a
shortage
of
qualified
people
that
we're
looking
for
as
an
organization.
So
but
that's
across
the
board
in
local
government,
it's
not
just
birmingham
that
has
that
challenge,
but
we're
also
doing
is
kind
of
a
counterweight
to
that
is
to
try
and
do
more
things
around
local
recruitment.
So
bringing
young
we've
got
fantastic.
I
I
I
I've
noted
from
the
discussion
you
know
in
the
comments
from
stuart
and
from
becky.
You
know
that
the
need
you
know
to
ensure
that
we've
gotten
the
right
skills
in
our
in
our
service
managers
as
well
as
in
finance,
and
then
becky
made
the
comment
about
the
need
to
ensure
that
con
that
contract
management
is
seen
as
a
specific
skill
and
that
we
bring
in
skilled
individuals
there.
But
I
am
very
much
concerned
about
you
that
you
know
the
profile
of
the
birmingham
manager,
particularly
in
services.
I
Now
your
progression
through
management
should
include
having
these
core
financial
skills,
so
you
should
be
able
to
do
forecasting.
You
should
be
able
to
see
when
your
your
services
over
spending
and
look
at
how
how
you
work
need
to
bring
that
bring
the
bring
the
expenditure
back
onto
profile.
So
it's
really
maybe
more
of
a
question
for
becky
about
what
you
know.
I
What's
the
work
that's
going
on
within
organizational
development
in
the
council
to
look
at,
you
know
the
core
set
of
financial
skills
that
every
manager
needs,
but
my
really,
the
main
point
I
wanted
to
make
is
that
I'm
absolutely
delighted
you
know
at
the
rate
of
progress
and
I
really
hope
that
we
can
maintain
the
progress
and
get
to
the
five
stars.
Thank
you
very
much.
G
You
know,
especially
in
terms
of
accountability
and
everything
and
financial
management,
as
well
as
as
within
finance
service
itself,
in
terms
of
the
overall
organizational
development.
As
you
know,
deborah's
joined
us,
deborah
cadman,
as
as
as
chief
exec,
and
has
already
embarked
on
an
overall
leadership
program.
G
I
know
because
I
was
there
last
week
in
in
in
terms
of
what
the
culture
needs
to
be
in
the
organization
going
forward
and
therefore
what
the
top
team
in
officer
terms,
obviously
only
you
know,
needs
to
knit
where
they
need
to
be
their
leadership
approach
and
everything
else
and
and
the
and
developing
that
really
strong
team.
You
know
of
offices
at
the
tops,
that's
absolutely
vital
and
not
something
that
I've
seen
in
the
organization
over
the
last
couple
of
years
that
I've
been
here.
G
I
It's
a
very
pressured
environment
and
managers
need
information
that
they
can
understand
and
act
upon,
and
I
think
that's
because
you
know
a
lot
of
you
know
the
funny
financial
information
that
I
used
to
see
in
particular
when
I
joined
the
organization
20
years
ago,
was
just
so
opaque
really
to
the
non-specialist.
I
think
it
actually
did
militate
against
any
sort
of
sensible
financial
planning,
so
I
I
hope
that
that's
a
new
a
feature
of
new
of
that
of
that
new
system
being
brought
in
chair.
G
Okay,
so
the
erp
system
that
we've
chosen
is
the
oracle
system.
Now
the
the
significance
of
of
sharing
that
is,
that
the
whole
basis
for
the
oracle
system,
unlike
the
sap
system,
is
all
about
user
experience.
It's
all
about
dashboards,
easily
easily
interpreted
financial
information
as
well
as
linking
it
through
to
performance
information,
because
we're
we've
brought
an
additional
module
that
will
help
us
with
that,
an
analytics
type
module
so
sorry
to
get
into
technical
speak.
G
How
and
that's
a
shift
from
the
sap
system
and-
and
the
only
reason
for
sharing
this-
is
that
the
sap
system
is
a
system,
that's
loved
by
technical
accountants,
okay,
but
making
any
sense
of
financial
data
if
you're
a
non-financial
senior
manager
is
virtually
impossible,
even
if
it's
implemented
to
its
full
extent,
which
it
hasn't
been
here
at
birmingham
in
the
past.
So
senior
managers
will
get
those
dashboards.
We
will
be
working
and
we're
already
working
in.
G
There
is
a
whole
data
and
insight
work
stream.
It's
absolutely
vital
that
we
do
this
because
there's
an
awful
lot
of
data
held
in
an
awful
lot
of
different
systems
that,
if
brought
together
in
a
useful
way,
could
give
us
real
intelligence
and
insight
across
the
organization
as
well
as
with
our
partners.
G
B
Okay,
if
I
can
just
finish
by
echoing
what
a
lot
of
members
have
said,
which
is
that
yeah,
I
remember
the
presentation
we
had
in
the
scrutiny
office,
all
the
chairs
together
and
I
think
all
our
jaws
collectively
dropped
when
we
saw
the
catalogue
and
it
wasn't
just
one
or
two
issues-
it
was
a
whole
host
of
failings.
I
think,
is
the
key
word
over
over
decades.
It
wasn't
just
a
recent
phenomenon,
it
was
you
know,
going
back
10
15
years
it
was.
B
B
Presumably
someone
did
an
analysis
of
how
we
got
to
that
terrible
state
of
affairs
and
looked
at
the
the
cumulative
effect,
I
suppose
of
of
trying
to
explain
why
we
did
it
and
put
measures
in
place
that
would
prevent
that
from
happening
in
the
future,
because
it's
a
it's
a
gradual
drift.
Isn't
it
doesn't
just
happen
overnight?
It's
a
gradual
drift
that
leads
us
to
that
state
of
affairs.
B
We
seem
to
appoint
people
and
then
think,
oh
you've
got
the
job
go
away
and
do
what
you
want:
there's
no
ongoing
performance
management
or
support
to
make
sure
that
they
do
their
job
to
the
standard.
That's
expected,
and
I
suppose
what
I'm
saying
is
that
a
good
accountant
doesn't
necessarily
make
a
good
financial
manager,
and
I
want
reassurance
that
we're
not
just
appointing
the
best
accountants
to
managerial
positions.
We
do
look
at
key
management
skills,
both
in
terms
of
budgets
and
personnel.
C
If
I
can,
I
mean
that's,
that's
one
hell
of
a
question.
If
you
don't
mind
me
saying
so,
carl
I
think
just
to
put
it
into
two
bits
on
the
first
bit,
I
think
you
know
my
memory
of
the
organization
doesn't
go
perhaps
back
as
far
as
yours
does
chair,
but
I
think
I
think
there
was
a
degree
of
complacency.
I
think
it's
probably
safe
to
say
around
the
organization.
So
having
been
that
you
know,
we
make
a
big
thing
of
being
the
biggest
local
authority.
C
I
mean
generally
accepted
that
we
were
kind
of
a
bit
of
a.
We
were
a
trailblazer
and
were
ahead
of
the
game
back
in
the
day,
but
I
think
that's
that,
unfortunately,
like
any
organization,
if
you
sit,
if
you
sit
in
a
static
position,
the
rest
of
the
world
moves
on,
and
I
think
that's
that's
largely
what
happened
here
and
I
think
there
was
and
also
obviously
as
well.
We
have
suffered
from
you
know.
C
C
On
the
on
the
staffing
side,
around
performance
management,
there
is
a
lot
ongoing
in
hr
as
well
at
the
moment
and
without
taking
this
session
off
into
a
completely
different
route.
Perhaps
it
might
be
worth
this
committee
taking
a
view
of
the
future
operating
model
in
in
hr
and
the
work
that's
being
undertaken
there,
which
again
is
happening
at
speed.
C
It
is
ambitious
in
terms
of
where
we
want
to
get
to,
and
the
last
point
I
think
I'll
just
make
around
cancer
is
just
around
around
how
we,
how
we
make
sure
we
don't
slip
back
into
into
complacency
and
not
progress
in
service,
and
I
think
part
of
that
is
obviously
about
leadership
and
having
the
right
leadership
in
place,
and
I
can't
and
as
I've
said
it
before.
I
can't
really
praise
our
section,
151
officer
and
deputy
enough
over
the
progress
you've
made
over
the
last
couple
of
years.
C
It
really
has
been
phenomenal,
but
also,
I
think
what
we've
also
got
to
be
mindful
of
is
the
need
for
external
validation.
I
think,
and
that's
part
of
the
role
siffer
can
play
in
having
that
support,
and
you
know
we
can
all
make
our
own
judgments
about
the
service
and
you'll
do
your
own
internal
assessment
in
the
position
and
it's
important
we
do
that
regularly,
but
I
also
think
it's
important
to
get
external
validation.
C
I
think
the
role
sit
for
play
in
doing
that
for
the
sector
is,
is
really
important
and
something
we'll
sort
of
look
to
build
on
and-
and
the
last
point
I
think
if
I
can
just
coming
back
on
something
liz
said
around
the
future,
I
think
we
do
have
to
be
aware
we're
still
in
choppy
waters-
and
I
mentioned
this
a
little
bit
earlier.
The
position
we
have
covered
is
in
effect
we
still.
C
The
mtfp
includes
gaps
in
future
years,
still
have
to
be
met
and
obviously
there's
a
lot
of
plans
in
place
through
delivery
plan,
etc.
But
those
gaps
remain
significant
and
there
is
still
work
to
be
done
around
those.
So
I
don't
want
to
give
the
impression
that
suddenly,
because
our
financial
management
has
improved
so
significantly,
it
doesn't
mean
that
the
financial
challenges
have
disappeared.
C
You
know
what
what
what
the
improved
position
in
terms
of
financial
management
allows
us
to
do
is
to
handle
those
shocks
better
and
be
prepared
for
them
and
put
him
in
place
the
measures
that
need
to
be
put
in
place,
but
it
doesn't
mean
that
those
shocks
don't
exist
and
that
choppy
water
isn't
still
out
there,
and
with
that
I
think,
that's,
that's.
Probably
all
I'd
like
to
say
over
them.
I
said
thank
you
again
to
stuart
for
the
really
clear
and
helpful
presentation.
I've
portrayed.
D
C
B
You
I
think,
unless
becky
or
stuart
want
to
come
back,
I
think
we're
done
just
just
on
the
point
about
performance
management,
I'm
I'm
consciously
scared
of
coordinating
overview
and
scrutiny.
I
do
not
want
to
incur
the
wrath
of
my
fellow
chairs
by
moving
over
into
areas
of
their
responsibility,
so
I'm
happy
to
be
kept
up
to
speed
privately
on
performance
management,
because
it
is
a
particular
interest
of
mine,
but
I'm
happy
hr
to
stay
with
with
councillor
mohammed
aglax
committee
and
to
take
the
lead
on
that.
B
Okay,
so
thank
you,
tristan,
thank
you,
becky
and
thank
you
stuart
for
an
excellent
thought-provoking
presentation
and
I
think
you've
reassured
members
of
the
committee
that
the
recent
improvements
aren't
a
flash
in
the
pan
and
that
they
will
continue
moving
forward
and
I
think
the
point
that
tristan
made
is
the
continuing
involvement
of
cypher
to
ensure
we
have
that
external
validation
is
what
will
give
us
that
additional
reassurance
moving
forward.
So
thank
you
all
very
much
indeed,.
B
C
Thank
you,
chair
yeah.
So
sorry
me
again,
so
this
is
the
review
of
the
charter.
I
mean
members,
I
would
think
we've
we've
talked
about.
I've
certainly
talked
about
this
enough
times.
Members
will
know
how
significant
and
sort
of
highly
valued
the
charter
is,
and
I
think
we
we
were
and
absolutely
should
be
trailblazers
in
this
area.
C
We
are
the
biggest
local
authority,
huge
spend
and
therefore
it's
right
that
we
try
and
get
as
much
social
value
as
we
possibly
can
from
those
contracts
that
we
have
and
also
encourage
others.
So
there's
a
lot
to
talk
about
anchor
institutions,
so
other
big
organizations
in
the
city
and
we
work
with
them
and
try
and
try
and
help
them
deliver
social
value
as
well,
which
helps
all
our
citizens.
C
In
fact,
so
the
purpose
of
this
paper
really
is
just
to
kind
of
go
through
some
of
the
kind
of
as
this
as
the
report
develops,
and
this
is
really
just
early
opportunity
for
members
to
kind
of
have
some
input
on
those
and
you'll
notice
from
the
report
that
we've
kind
of
grouped
them
into
three
kind
of
areas
of
things.
We're
hoping
to
focus
on
some
of
them
are
more
straightforward
than
others.
C
So,
for
example,
updating
the
ward
rankings,
the
new
indices
and
multiple
deprivation-
I
don't
think
will
be
will
be
particularly
particularly
controversial
and
there's
various
other
technical
things.
There's
a
couple
of
things
I
think
are
worth
mentioning
just
because
I
think
they'll
be
of
interest
to
members.
One
of
them
is
inclusion
of
us
signing
up
to
the
council's
declaration
for
fair
tax.
C
We
we
would
encourage
the
companies
we
do
business
with
to
bets
pay,
fair
tax
and
that's
we've
had
we've
had
a
consideration
of
that
in
procurement
processes
for
a
long
time,
but
what
the
fair
tax
mark
is
about
is
saying
that
that
there
is
a
sort
of
standard.
So
it's
not
just
a
jet
va
commitment.
There
is
actually
a
standard.
We
would
expect
that
we
we
would
hope
our
companies
would
work
towards.
We
can't
legally
enforce
it.
C
We
don't
have
the
powers
to
do
it,
but
what
we
can
do
certainly
is
encourage
and
and
praise
those
companies
like
timson's,
for
example,
who
have
signed
up
to
the
fair
tax
mark
and,
I
think,
all
credit
to
those
companies
and
there's
a
list
on
the
website.
People
are
interested
in
those
companies
and
more
and
more
signing
up
all
the
time.
C
There's
also
the
inclusion
of
the
steel
charter,
which
is
an
attempt
by
trade
unions
and
the
industry
to
encourage
the
use
of
uk
steel,
which
I
think
doesn't
directly
affect
us,
we're
not
a
big
steel
manufacturing
town
other
other
than
we
do
have.
Some
processing
works
there's
more
of
it
in
the
black
country,
but
also
again,
I
think
it's
the
right
thing
to
do
in
terms
of
encouraging
the
use
of
uk
steel,
hey
it's
high
environmental
stat.
You
know
in
a
very
carbon
intense
industry.
C
Uk
standards
are
high
around
that,
but
also
it's
good
for
obviously
uk
jobs
and
promoting
uk
industry,
which
I
think
we
all
would
welcome
here.
As
a
group,
I
said,
there's
a
whole
load
of
things
I
won't
go
through
every
item
in
the
report
is
also
things
like
replacing
the
the
10
and
30
mile
radiuses.
We
currently
use
for
something
that's
more
local
in
terms
of
birmingham
and
west
midlands
specific
western
combined
authority
borders
as
well.
C
So
one
of
those
is
around
the
role
of
planning
and
social
value
in
planning,
which
again
is
a
developing
area
and
some
other
local
authorities
have
done
some
work
on
it.
Obviously,
a
lot
of
the
focus
around
social
value
is
on
procurement,
but
a
lot
of
what
happens
in
our
city
is
determined
through
the
planning
process
and
isn't
us
directly
procuring
developments.
It
is
large
organizations,
large
developers
coming
in
and
building
significant
things
in
the
city,
and
I
think
it's
right.
C
The
planning
has
a
view
on
social
value
and
tries
to
get
a
greater
share
of
social
value
into
the
city
from
those
large-scale
developments,
so
we
can
all
benefit
and
also
that
ties
in
nicely
to
sort
of
property
sales
as
well,
and
then
I
think,
there's
also
just
generally
that
piece
of
work
around
ensuring
that
there
is
a
cycle
that
what
happens
is
we
and
something
I'm
personally
very
keen
on
is?
Is
we
have
a
reporting
cycle?
C
So
we
know
at
the
moment
that
most
members,
awareness
of
social
value
is
probably
only
driven
by
probably
driven
by
what
they
see
in
cabinet
reports.
So
what
we're
keen
to
do
is
to
establish
a
cycle
of
reporting,
so
we
say
we're
going
to
do
something
we
deliver
it
and
then
we
report
back
and
say
what
worked
and
what
didn't
work
and
then
that
informs
where
we
want
to
go
with
the
next
major
project
or
the
next
large
procurement
we
have
in
the
city,
and
so
that's
something
I
think
we're
keen
to
establish.
C
We
we
bought
a
report
to
cabinet
in
april
that
went
through
a
sort
of
high
level
summary
of
some
of
the
outputs,
and
I
hope
that
will
develop
and
become
more
sophisticated
as
we
move
forward
and
on
an
annual
basis.
That
reporting
is
something
again
that
birmingham
can
kind
of
lead.
The
way
on
and
saying
look.
This
is
what
your
local
authority
can
deliver.
This
is
what
we
can
do
and
I
think
we've
got
a
really
proud
record
that
we
can
stand
up
and
say:
look.
C
We
deliver
a
huge
amount
of
social
value
into
our
city.
We
should
be
proud
of
that
and
make
more
and
make
more
of
it.
Quite
frankly,
I
think
it's
an
achievement.
We
should
all
be
proud
of
as
a
city
and
so
and
and
that
hopefully
would
encourage
others
as
well.
So
the
other
local
authorities
in
in
the
region
and
in
the
country,
but
also
businesses
and
other
anchor
institutions,
will
look
at
that
and
say
look.
This
is
what
birmingham
city
accounts
are
delivering.
C
You
know
we
need
to
up
our
game
and
we
need
to
report
on
it
more
and
then,
hopefully
that
allows
us
to
pull
together
a
picture
of
all
the
social
value
that's
being
delivered
across
the
west
midlands,
because
there
is
government
are
keen
on
this
agenda.
Companies
are
keen
on
this
agenda,
there's
no
reason
why
we
can't
push
on
and
develop
more
so
and
I'll
bring
shariat
and
he'll
be
able
to
give
some
more
detail
around
this.
C
But
that's
it
is
an
exciting
piece
of
work
and
I'm
really
keen
to
hear
your
input.
The
paper's
been
circulated
so
at
any
of
those
points,
feed
your
input
in
now.
The
report
is
in
a
draft
form,
so
this
is
genuinely
open,
put
it
all
together
and
then,
when
we
go
to
cabinet
with
this
report,
hopefully
we
can
say
it
reflects
the
views
of
the
sort
of
the
whole
the
whole
of
the
authority
as
well
and
cross
party
as
well.
J
J
We
would
like
to
include
in
the
in
our
green
and
sustainable
theme,
because
carbon
reduction
is
great
and
we
have
many
of
those
measures,
but
we
want
to
remove
a
specific
measure
on
the
organization's
stands
on
carbon
neutral
and
by
what
year
they
intend
to
become
carbon
neutral,
and
we
want
to
establish
a
minimum
of
20
waiting
for
for
all
procurement
and
commissioning
and
also
to
say
that
reporting
is
really
important
to
us.
You
know
it's
great.
J
We
we
put
we
building
social
value,
really
well
into
procurement
and
and
commissioning,
but
what
actually
happens
during
the
delivery
is
is
what's
important
and
this
is
another
promise
of
the
new
erp
we
have
built
in
the
process
of
social
value
reporting
into
the
new
new
erp,
so
that
it
is
taken
care
of
as
part
of
the
standard
contract.
The
management
another
bit
of,
I
think
important
development
that
we
are
doing
is
matching
the
needs
of
the
council
and
with
the
leverage
to
bring
in
social
value.
J
K
Thank
you,
carl,
and
I
very
much
welcome
this
report.
I
think
this,
as
this
has
been
said,
it's
a
very
important
initiative
that
has
been
you
know
is,
is
well
mature
within
the
council.
Now,
when
I
read
the
report,
I
was
quite
concerned
that
basically,
it
just
covered
a
number
of
things.
We
could
do
without
any
review
of
what's
working
and
you
know
where
the
glitches
are
in
it,
because
sometimes
you
can
put
something
in
policies
like
this
and
see.
Everyone
seems
to
you
know.
K
Everyone
agrees
that
this
should
be
the
right
thing
to
do,
but
then,
for
some
reason
it
just
doesn't
work
and
there's
another
way
to
get
it
done,
so
not
having
any
review
of
what's
working
what's
going
well
and
what
seemed
to
be
a
major
omission,
but
the
comments
that
tristan
made
were
encouraging
in
that
that
will
be
done
as
part
of
this.
So
I
very
very
much
hope
that
is
the
case.
I
was
concerned
within
in
the
group
two
to
see
the
the
paragraph
on
the
route
zero.
K
C
Yeah,
okay,
if
I
can
just
just
very
quickly
and
I'll,
be
every
show
just
just
on
that.
I
think
it's
important
to
make
the
distinction
between,
I
suppose
the
root
to
zero
objectives
of
the
thing
itself.
We
are
purchasing
or
the
service
we
are
procuring
and
the
social
value
element
that
we
might
then
seek
to
do
around
about
also
helping
the
roots
of
zeros.
It's
kind
of
there's
two
aspects
in
any
one
project.
C
I
mean
it's
kind
of
important
to
sort
of
so
emphasize
that
but
yeah,
I
think
what
might
work
I'll
just
put
it.
It
won't
as
we
develop
those
measures.
Perhaps
it
might
be
worth
bringing
back
the
specifics
of
those
either
to
this
committee
or
perhaps
to
a
lizzie's
committee.
I
think,
be
the
relevant
one
to
have
a
more
detailed
discussion
about
those
I'll
be
more
than
more
than
happy
to
do
that.
C
J
J
J
We
will
be
carbon
neutral,
so
the
difficulties
in
the
conversation
around
the
contract
versus
the
company,
so
absolutely
it
we,
we
will
bring
it
to
the
to
the
next
one
propose
it
to
to
cabinet,
but
we
need
to
be
cognizant
of
of
the
difficulty
for
an
organization
to
make
their
contract
carbon
neutral
and
in
terms
of
what
works
and
what
doesn't
work.
As
as
cancer
chatfield
said,
we
will
bring
it
to
the
appropriate
committee.
E
C
I
I
think
sherry
it
might
have
more
details
than
I
do
on
the
specifics
of
those
those
two
examples.
So
we've
this
is
very
early
in
the
sense.
I've
just
started
to
pull
together
a
working
group
to
have
a
conversation
about
this,
so
I
would
quite
honestly
deidre,
I
probably
know
as
much
as
you
do,
other
than
that
it's
a
developing
area
and-
and
I
know
that-
and
there
is
some
merits-
and
there
is
some
national
interest
around
it-.
J
J
But
the
question
is
how
how
how
enforceable
is
it,
and
in
terms
of
that,
we
need
to
get
some
advice
from
legal.
We
can
put
it
in
the
planning
condition
or
in
the
section
106,
but
how
enforceable
is
it,
but
then
the
industry
as
a
whole
is
coming
round
to
it
and
they're
becoming
more
and
more
mature.
So
it
is
yeah.
It
is
a
the
right
thing
for
us
to
do
at
this
time.
B
E
J
J
So
if
they
are
building
a
office
block-
and
there
are
planning
conditions
in
in
there,
do
the
obligations
carry
on
to
the
to
the
occupants
of
of
those
office
blocks
and
will
they
have
to
deliver
these
these
social
value
outcomes
and
that
very
often
makes
developers
very
nervous
because
it
sort
of,
but
some
developers
are
quite
advanced
and
in
some
places
not
always
so.
If
it's
office
space
there
might
be
more
comfortable
in
incorporating
social
value
and
closes
in
the
in
the
lease
agreement.
J
I
Thanks
jen,
for
heaven's
sake,
did
you
don't
run
yourself
down?
You
are
that
new
beacon
of
expertise
and
knowledge
over
you
know
over
your
whole
new
long
career
in
the
council.
So
please
no
do
not
say
that
you
don't
know
things.
I
wanted
to
just
come
back
to
the
discussion
about
the
route
to
zero
and
the
contribution
that
they
say
this.
This
charter
can
can
make,
and
I
you
know
I
was
absolutely
delighted
in
what
shariat
said
to
the
meeting.
I
thought
you
know.
I
That
procurement
is
that
the
biggest
generator
of
carbon
emissions
by
the
city
council
directly
sort
of
80
or
thereabouts
of
so
that's
missions
that
we
directly
control
and
we
can
do
something
about
reducing
them
through
the
way
that
that
we
commission
and
procure
and
we're
picking
up
some
of
the
themes
of
the
previous
item
that
we
discussed
this
morning.
So
I
would
expect
you
know
yes
to
have
a
discussion
in
my
sustainability
and
transport
committee
about
this.
I
But
I
think,
if
we're
serious
about
this
charter,
we
both
want
to
be
contracting
with
organizations
that
have
made
an
organizational
commitment
to
reducing
carbon
and
then
in
the
we
want
them
to
sign
up
to
a
commitment
into
each
individual
contract.
And
when
we're
in
when
we're
negotiating,
we
should
be
starting
off
from
the
commitments
that
we've
made,
both
in
the
initial
declaration
declaration
and
in
the
action
plan.
I
You
know
to
use
our
power
if
you
like,
as
the
procurer
of
the
service,
to
set
some
ambitious
targets
for
it
for
reducing
carbon
and
actually
having
a
good
methodology
for
for
carbon
accounting.
So,
if
you're
hearing
some
frustration
in
my
voice,
it's
because
I'm
pretty
frustrated
about
this
whole
area.
I'm
you
know,
thinking
of
things
like
also
like
that
you
know
our.
I
You
know
overall
council
business
plan
where
we've
got
a
priority
about
climate
change,
but
that
but
the
the
performance
measures
to
support
that
are
yet
you
know,
are
still
being
worked
out
and
again,
you
know
I'll
be
asking
for
something
quite
rigorous
and
and
stringent
there.
So
I
really
want
us
to
be
ambitious
in
this
area
and
there's
lots
of
things
in
the
environment
in
the
wider
city
in
the
region
that
we
do
not
control
directly.
I
So
I
I
really
feel
that
this
this
charter
could
be
really
a
powerful
tool
and
if
we're
going
to
sign
up
to
a
climate
emergency
declaration
and
and
spend
two
years
developing
an
action
plan,
we
must
start
to
be
ambitious
in
in
the
expectations
that
we're
setting
for
the
for
the
organizations
that
are
in
receipt
of
the
public
money
that
we're
we're
dispersing
through
through
procurement.
Thanks
very
much.
C
C
One
is,
I
said,
it's
important
that
there
is
the
sort
of
social
value
aspect
of
the
contracts
and
where
you
look
for
sort
of
carbon
reduction
as
part
of
the
social
value
outcome
of
the
contract,
and
then
there
is
the
thing
itself
and
I
think
what
we
need
to
do
much
better.
What
we,
what
we're
going
to
have
to
do,
if
we're
going
to
make
any
progress
at
all,
really
is
to
start
in
integral
to
the
contract
integral
to
what
it
is
that
we're
buying.
C
So
to
use
the
example
of
an
athletic
stadium,
it's
not
an
athletic
stadium,
it's
a
carbon,
neutral,
athletic
stadium
or
it's
an
athletic
stadium
that
builds.
You
know,
build
some
resource
into
it
that
helps
reduce
the
carbon
emit.
You
know
that
brings
carbon
emissions
down
income
in
the
city.
It's
not
even
net
zero.
It's
a
positive
contribution.
It's
that
kind
of
thing
that
we
need
service
areas
to
be
building
into
as
integral
into
the
thing
at
which
they
are.
They
are
purchasing.
C
That's
how
we're
really
going
to
shift
this
but
yeah
other
than
that.
I've
really
got
much
to
add
to
lizzy's
very
passionate
remarks,
so
how
passionate
she
feels
about
it.
It's
shared
by
lots
of
members
of
your
organization
and
we
have
to
do
it.
You
know.
Ultimately,
we
are
going
to
have
to
do
this.
We
need
to.
C
We
need
to
move
that
down
this
agenda
as
quickly
as
we
can,
and
I
appreciate
the
frustration
that
liz
and
I
think
some
members
feel
about
the
speed
of
this,
but
it
I
think
it's
going
to
be
a
variable
picture
across
different
areas.
I
think
in
some
areas
we're
going
to
be
able
to
move-
and
I
think,
we're
already
moving
at
quite
significant
speed
in
other
areas.
It's
much
more
much
more
clunky
and
a
little
bit
more
difficult
and
needs
a
lot
of
uphill
pushing
to
get
us
there,
but
I
think
we
can.
C
The
other
point
I
can
briefly-
and
it
touches
on
all
of
this-
is
there
is
there-
has
been
a
government
green
paper
procurement,
that's
been
out
for
consultation,
around
social
value
and
some
of
it
sorry
it
covers
social
value.
As
part
of
that,
and
I
think
in
this
kind
of
brexit
world,
one
of
the
alleged
benefits
around
brexit
is
the
ability
to
have
more
control
over
procurement
processes,
and
part
of
that
might
allow
us
to
do
more
in
terms
of
social
value
in
terms
of
pushing
the
envelope
around
social
value.
C
Again,
it's
something
that
we're
looking
at
and
that
we
haven't
seen.
We
haven't
seen
the
white
paper
yet
so
we
don't
know
what
the
outcome
of
that
is
going
to
be.
We've
just
seen
the
consultation
documents
in
the
green
paper,
so
we'll
wait
and
see
where
it
leaves
us
and
whether
it
gives
us
greater
freedom
around
this
agenda.
There
is
a
lot
of
talk
around
simplification
in
that,
but
also,
let's
talk
about
extending
the
right,
the
abilities
of
councils
and
the
abilities
of
procuring
organizations
to
look
at
greater
social
value
etcetera.
I
Yeah,
it
was
just
to
say
I
welcome
you
that
could
be
a
statement
from
tristan,
and
I
think
that
shows
a
commitment.
You
know
a
leadership
level
and
it's
following
through,
but
my
fear
is
that
actually,
when
we
get
into
the
nitty-gritty
of
procurement
processes
and
negotiations,
we're
still
going
to
get
back
to
the
position
like
so
on
on
property
developments.
Oh,
if
we
set
too
many
of
these
stringent
targets,
it's
going
to
put
developers
off.
That's
the
discussion
that
we've
had
about.
You
know
the
development
of
things
like
the.
I
What
was
the
athlete's
village
in
perry
bar,
but
you
know
which
is
now
going
to
be
the
development
as
part
of
the
perry
bar
regeneration
and
the
and
the
waste
disposal
contract.
You
know
where
we
appear
to
be
allowing
it
the
markets
to
determine
what
would
be
the
targets
and
effort
for
carbon
reduction
within
that
within
that
procurement
process,
rather
than
setting
some
targets
ourselves
at
the
beginning.
So
I
think
that
you
know
we.
I
Is
it
going
to
be
sustainable?
Is
it
going
to
have
continually
reducing
levels
of
carbon
emissions
and
really
and
really
efficient
energy
use,
and
what's
the
long-term
cost
you
know?
So
that's
why
we
come
back
new
to
some
serious
work
on
the
on
the
carbon
accounting.
So
what
I
think
that
I
feel
that
actually
tristan
himself
has
moved
on
actually
sort
of,
I
would
say
well
and
what
he
said
to
me
since
we
had
the
discussions
around
that
new,
the
the
the
council
motion,
which
accompanied
the
action
plan.
I
B
Okay,
thank
you
to
shariat
and
thank
you
to
tristan.
You've
certainly
earned
your
money
today,
tristan
a
bumper
bumper
session.
So
thank
you.
Thank
you
very
much
and
if
you
could
again
pass
on
our
appreciation
and
congratulations
to
all
the
key
members
of
the
finance
team
who
have
turned
around
birmingham's
financial
performance
in
recent
years,
I
think
we're
all
very
pleased
and
it's
a
great
success
story
for
you
and
your
team.
Thank
you
very
much
indeed,.
C
B
A
Okay,
thank
you
chair.
Hopefully
that's
working
yeah,
so
the
the
work
program
is
currently
as
in
in
your
information
pack.
Our
next
formal
meeting
will
be
on
the
10th
of
september,
where
we're
getting
an
update
from
the
cabinet
member
on
equalities
on
his
work.
If
you
remember
that's
a
recent
addition
to
this
committee's
portfolio,
there
are
also
a
couple
of
other
sessions,
informal
sessions
that
we
need.
A
A
We
would
like,
I
think,
ideally
that
would
work
best
as
a
face-to-face
session,
so
we
are
looking
at
september.
So
again
I
will
come
back
to
you
on
dates
on
that
and
then
the
final
thing
I
will
mention
is
the
september
council
meeting
will
be
our
next
scrutiny.
Business
report
so
I'll
be
looking
at
starting
to
draft
that
again
in
the
next
couple
of
weeks
and
again
really
summarizing
where
scrutiny
is
at
the
moment
and
in
terms
of
the
work
programmes
across
all
eight
committees.
A
E
A
B
K
K
B
I
think
roger,
I
think,
you've
hit
your
nail
under
the
head.
Why
we've
got
into
this
state
of
affairs
because
different,
not
just
different
parts
of
the
council,
but
different
parts
of
the
public
services
are
responsible
for
different
aspects
of
exempt
accommodation,
which
is
why,
if
you
are
organized,
let's
put
it
like
that
you
can
navigate
through
each
and
every
one
of
those
safeguards
successfully
mohammed
mohammed
akhlaq
yeah
thanks.
H
B
Things
yeah
we
when
we
started
the
process
mohammed,
we
we
had
to
limit
it,
because
if
we
were
to
include
hmos,
which
is
legitimately
the
the
role
of
the
housing
overview
and
scrutiny
and
penn
has
done
a
lot
of
work
around
around
this
because
exempt
involved
so
many
departments
and
indeed
external
departments
of
the
local
authority.
That's
why
cohort
took
it
on,
but
I
know
that
penny's
done
an
awful
lot
of
work
around
around
hmos,
but
this
particular
report
and
investigation
is
limited
to
exempt.