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From YouTube: Licensing Sub-Committee C 7th July 2021
Description
Link to Agenda Papers -
https://birmingham.cmis.uk.com/birmingham/Meetings/tabid/70/ctl/ViewMeetingPublic/mid/397/Meeting/12363/Committee/8/Default.aspx
A
Okay,
that's
fine
brilliant
good
morning,
I'm
councilor
nikki
brennan
and
I
will
be
chairing
this
hearing
of
subcommittee
a
of
the
licensing
and
public
protection
committee
of
birmingham
city
council.
Before
we
start,
can
we
please
all
our
microphones
for
the
moment
in
order
to
improve
the
sound
quality?
Whilst
I
outline
the
procedure,
can
you
also
please
turn
off
your
cameras
with
the
exception
of
the
committee
members?
Unless
you
are
the
person
speaking,
this
is
to
reduce
bandwidth
committee
members
will
have
their
cameras
switched
on
throughout
the
hearing.
A
A
It
is
vitally
important
for
what
I
hope
for
obvious
reasons
that
those
attending
the
meeting
and
making
representations
are
able
to
hear
me
and
members
of
my
subcommittee
and
officers.
Any
distractions
brought
to
my
attention
could
result
in
the
meeting
being
suspended
temporarily
or
to
another
date
and
time
under
the
regulations
for
these
type
of
meetings.
A
Members
are
reminded
that
they
must
declare
any
pecuniary
or
non-pecuniary
interest
arising
from
business
to
be
discussed
at
today's
meeting.
If
their
disposable
pecuniary
interest
is
declared,
a
member
must
not
speak
or
take
part
in
that
agenda
item
and
any
declarations
will
be
recorded
in
the
minutes
of
the
meeting.
There
are
no
apologies
today.
A
A
E
Good
morning,
chair
good
morning,
everybody
I'm
duncan
craig
I'm
here
to
represent
the
license
holder,
who
is
sat
at
the
end
of
the
table
from
me.
Can
I
just
say
at
this
stage
I
know
in
recent
hearings.
I've
had
issues
with
the
speech,
but
I
still
don't
have
the
speech
bubble
so
I'll
raise
my
hand.
If,
if
I
need
to
say
anything,
I'm
I
can
electronically
raise
my
hand
and
I'll
do
that
if
required,
I'm
going.
A
A
G
A
Chair,
thank
you.
I
will
assume
that
all
parties
have
read
and
understood
the
licensing
committee
procedural
rules
sent
out
with
the
notice
of
today's
hearing.
Please
note,
given
the
nature
of
today's
proceedings,
I
may,
at
my
discretion,
amend
the
procedural
rules
to
reflect
the
fact
that
this
meeting
is
taking
place
online,
but
wish
to
reassure
everybody
that
such
amendments
will
not
impact
on
the
party's
right
to
a
fair
hearing.
A
We
will
be
using
the
chat
function
in
microsoft.
Teams
to
communicate
one
of
the
icons
on
the
toolbar
is
a
speech
bubble,
click
the
speech
bubble
to
go
onto
the
chat
and
if
you
do
not
have
access
to
the
chat
for
any
reason,
please
use
erasure
function
to
indicate
you
wish
to
speak,
which
is
usually
fourth
on
the
toolbar.
You
can
also
indicate
verbally
at
the
appropriate
time,
can
you
confirm
that
you
have
access
to
the
chart
facility
by
typing
your
own
name?
A
E
G
G
Yes,
thank
you
chair
from
the
initial
hearing
the
expedite
review
hearing.
We
showed
some
cctv
that
cctv
was
shown
in
a
private
session.
I'm
conscious
that
we
have
now
have
three
new
committee
members
that
won't
have
seen
that
it's
completely
up
to
yourselves
whether
you
did
want
to
see
that
today,
whether
you
want
to
just
hear
the
evidence,
that's
going
to
be
put
forward
in
them
in
mr
craig's
application.
A
A
A
G
A
That's
fine.
Thank
you
very
much
so
now.
I
will
briefly
outline
the
procedure
for
which
we'll
be
following
at
today's
hearing.
Firstly,
the
licensing
officer
will
present
the
report.
Then
the
applicant
will
be
asked
to
present
their
case
and
we're
asking
if
this
can
be
kept
to
approximately
20
minutes,
then
west
midlands
police
will
be
invited
to
make
their
case
again.
Approximately
20
minutes
will
be
allowed
for
this
part
of
the
hearing.
A
They
must
signify
this
by
using
the
chat
function
or
by
raising
their
hand.
The
meeting
manager
will
alert
me
if
I
do
not
notice
messages
in
the
chat,
and
I
will
determine
verbally
or
in
writing
the
order
and
which
questions
will
be
dealt
with
so
any
point
in
the
meeting
you
wish
to
speak.
Please
type.
The
word
speak
into
the
chat
function
and
the
meeting
manager
will
ensure
that
we
come
to
you
at
the
appropriate
moment.
A
If,
at
any
point,
you
cannot
hear
or
are
having
problems
with
your
internet
connection,
please
use
the
chat
function
to
alert
the
meeting
manager
or
because
people
haven't
got
access
to
that.
Please
raise
your
hand
or
do
so
verbally.
The
chat
her
chair
will
then
ask
the
person
speaking
to
repeat
what
they
just
said.
It's
therefore
important
that
you
use
the
chat
function
as
soon
as
you're
able
you're
not
able
to
hear
the
person
speaking
it
may
be
that
there
is
problems
caused
by
people
still
having
their
microphone
or
cameras
on
which
causes
interference.
A
So
I'll
remind
everyone
again
to
please
mute
your
microphone
and
turn
off
your
camera.
When
you
are
not
the
person
speaking,
could
I
point
out
that
occasionally
it
may
be
necessary
for
the
subcommittee
to
take
legal
advice
at
my
discretion.
I
may
ask
all
parties
to
wait
in
this
meeting,
whilst
members
and
the
relevant
officers
withdraw
to
take
legal
advice
using
a
separate
microsoft
teams
meeting,
we
will
then
return
to
this
meeting
and
continue.
A
Please
note
if
there
are
any
time
there
are
live
stream
problems.
I
will
ask
you
all
to
mute
your
microphone
and
cameras
and
to
stop
speaking
until
the
live
stream
is
restored.
If
at
any
time
this
meeting
goes
into
private
session,
the
meeting
manager
will
pause
the
live
stream
once
the
private
part
of
the
meeting
is
over.
I
will
ask
the
meeting
manager
to
confirm
that
the
live
stream
is
regime.
Before
we
continue
at
the
conclusion
of
this
hearing,
I
will
invite
all
parties
to
make
a
brief
closing
submission.
A
A
B
B
This
hearing
has
been
arranged
in
order
to
consider
whether
it
is
necessary
to
take
any
interim
steps
in
respect
of
the
license
pending
the
determination
of
the
review.
The
premises
license
is
included
at
item
e
at
the
hearing.
The
licensing
authority
must
consider
whether
the
interim
steps
are
appropriate
for
the
promotion
of
the
licensing
objectives
and
determine
whether
to
withdraw
or
modify
the
steps
taken.
B
When
considering
the
case,
the
licensing
authority
must
take
into
account
the
senior
officers
certificate
that
accompanies
the
application.
The
chief
officers
representations
if
any
and
any
representations
made
by
the
premises
license
holder.
Please
note
that
there
is
no
right
of
appeal
to
a
magistrate's
court
against
the
licensing
authority's
decision
at
this
stage.
Thank
you,
chair.
A
E
Certainly
chair
I'll
just
give
a
little
bit
of
a
background
about
how
I
became
involved,
because
I
do
think
it's
the
narrative
that
flows
from
that
is
relevant
to
this
application.
So
I
I
received
a
phone
call
on
saturday
from
a
criminal
solicitor
that
that
I
know
karen
at
bc.
Clark
and
kings.
Heath
who
has
been
friends
with
caroline
the
license
holder
for
most
of
her
life,
is
that
fair
comment,
31
years
40
years,
okay,
40
years
about
about
the
review-
and
I
made
contact
with
the
premises.
E
In
actual
fact,
constable
reed
and
chris
jones
were
actually
bizarrely
at
the
premises.
When
I
called
I
spoke
to
constable
reader
at
the
time
that
was
on
saturday,
the
premises
it's
right
to
say,
I
haven't
been
made
aware
of
the
closure
and
that's
why
the
police
were
there
and
and
and
they
did
close,
they
closed
immediately
after
the
police,
elected
premises,
and
I
then,
on
saturday,
around
the
time
the
game
was
playing
actually
contacted.
A
lady
called
helen
overton,
who
is
well
known
to
westminster
police.
E
She
is
well
regarded
by
them.
She
undertakes
risk
assessments
on
behalf
of
licensed
premises.
I
use
helen
quite
a
bit
and
she
is
very
responsive
and,
in
my
view,
extremely
good
at
what
she
does,
and
I
asked
helen
I'd
already
had
a
conversation
with
constable
rita,
but
I
I
asked
helen
if
she'd
be
in
a
position
theoretically
to
go
to
the
premises
themselves
on
monday
afternoon,
if
that
was
deemed
appropriate,
I
then
visited
the
premises
on
monday
morning
at
9
30.
E
E
I
know
that
perhaps
some
of
my
professional
colleagues
occasionally
stick
these
representations
against
interim
steps
in
as
a
matter
of
cause.
I
don't
I
don't
do
that.
I
I
only
do
that
where
I
feel
there's
significant
merit
in
the
application,
because
I'm
not,
I
don't
think
I'm
doing
my
client
any
favors.
Frankly,
if
I'm
making
representations
that
aren't
going
to
go
anywhere.
E
So
that
was
all
I
made
it
clear
to
to
my
client
at
the
time
that
I
would
only
make
this
application
on
their
behalf,
or
certainly
I
only
advise
them
to
make
this
application
if
I
felt
that
there'd
been
some
some
common
ground
between
me
and
west
midlands,
police
and
so
throughout
the
course
of
monday.
First
of
all,
I
notified
your
licensing
authority
informally.
E
Then,
following
that
being
served,
there
were
one
or
two
tweaks
that
followed
from
the
prime
minister's
announcement
as
well.
So
a
second
person
went
through
to
the
police.
I
then,
yesterday
at
about
half
past
two
went
to
lloyd
house
and
met
with
hurun
constable
reed
and
watched
the
footage
that
you
are
going
to
see.
E
I
want
to
say
so
so
I'm
not
saying
this
for
the
purposes
of
boasting.
Please
don't
I'm
doing
that,
but
I
am
insanely
busy
at
the
moment
with
with
kobe
related
reviews.
I
have
three
expedited
reviews
this
week
and
the
only
slot
I
had
available
was
this
afternoon.
So
please
that
the
fact
that
england
are
playing
today
isn't
really
going
to
be
a
relevant
consideration
for
you
for
reasons
which
I'll
go
on
to
explain
shortly,
but
the
only
slot
I
had
available
was
this
afternoon
and
then
what
happened?
E
E
But
that's
not
been
done
in
a
way,
that's
in
any
way,
casual
or
or
flippant,
or
that
it's
being
done
in
a
considered
fashion,
based
on
ongoing
conversations
with
the
police
engagement
with
a
and
somebody
who's
undertaking,
a
risk
assessment
me
liaising
with
the
premises
and
me
putting
this
application
in
because
I
feel
there's
considerable
merit
to
it.
So
I
I
I
in
my
eight
years
of
practice
in
this
city.
I've,
probably
I
can
be
very
sure-
I've
done
more
expedited
reviews
than
anyone
else.
E
E
Now,
just
to
give
you
a
bit
of
background
about
caroline
herself-
and
I
just
want
to
say
at
the
beginning
that
she
absolutely
acknowledges
in
respect
of
the
the
the
the
incident
on
on
the
sunday
that
there
were
masses
there
where
the
premises
fell
short
in
terms
of
its
coveted
responsibilities
and
requirements,
and
she
acknowledges
that
and
she
is.
I
can
say
that
she
is
upset
about
that
and
feels
feels
terrible
about
it
actually
and
one
of
the
reasons
she
feels
terrible
about
that.
E
There's
lots
of
reasons
why
but
obviously
somebody's
been
badly
injured.
But
this
is
a
this.
Is
a
community
pub
this
I'm
a
lot
I
I've
been
I've
been.
I
know
I
can
feel
comfortable
readers
rolling
his
eyes,
as
I
say
this,
but
I've
been
involved
in
license
trading
for
30
years
now,
and
I
I
like
to
think
I've
got
a
good
sense
of
of
premises
that
are
properly
rooted
in
the
local
community
and
there's
no
question
this
premises.
Is
it's
essentially
its
core
activity,
it's
rooted
in
the
irish
community.
E
It's
it's!
It's
core
activity
is
a
is
around
the
gaelic
football
team,
but
it's
obvious
just
speaking
to
the
staff
there
speaking
to
caroline
that
this
is
this
is
a.
This
is
a
pub
that
has
a
lot
of
regular,
so
the
person
who
was
assaulted
is
known
to
her
and
now-
and
I
will
tell
you
as
well
the
person
who's
committed.
The
assault
who
is
now
barred
is
also
known
to
her
this.
E
This
is
a
pub
where
everybody
is
known
pretty
much
so,
and
there
are
advantages
and
disadvantages
that,
but
she
is
multiplied,
but
by
what's
happened
just
to
give
you
a
little
background
on
her,
because
I
think
it's
important
that
you
know
about
her
provenance
or
her
experience
in
in
the
in
the
licensed
trade.
She
had.
The
celtic
court
so
she's
been
in
the
license
trade
since
she
was
16.
E
She
is
50
years
of
age.
Now
it's
34
years
in
this
city.
She
was
born
here,
so
she
is
absolutely
rooted
in
in
in
the
trade
she
had
the
celtic
court
in
small
heap,
which
is
now
the
days
in
from
93
to
98.
She
had
the
three
magpies
in
hall,
green
from
2000
to
2006
and
then
she's
had
cases
it's
named
just
to
give
her
further
concept.
This
is
the
proper,
properly
a
family
business.
It's
named
after
her
daughter
casey.
E
I
met
casey
and
she's
had
that
since
2008
and
and
that's
that's
important,
because
this
is
a
premises
license
that
has
stood
since
2008
13
years
and
this
november,
but
the
premises
has
been
operating
with
caroline
as
the
license
holder
and
it's
never
been
reviewed.
It's
never
troubled
the
police
before
so
and
look
acoc
screen
is
not
the
easiest
part
birmingham
to
manage
as
well.
I
think
that's
fair
to
concede
that
too.
So.
This
is
a
premises
that
and
I've
asked
constable
reader.
This
that's
been
this
on
on
about
these
premises.
E
These
are
not
premises
that
have
been
particularly
on
the
police's
radar
any
more
than
any
other
premises
will
ordinarily
be
so.
So
I
think
it's
important
to
give
you
that
just
a
little
I
mean
I.
I
also
know
from
speaking
to
caroline
that
the
the
premises
has
done
a
lot
of
good
work
during
covert
for
the
local
community.
They
did
two.
A
bag
drops
for
600
people
during
the
first
and
second
lockdown
there's
a
lot
of
presents
for
kids.
Caroline
herself
is
an
nhs
responder.
E
She
cares
about
the
premises
that
she
that
she
owns
and
operates,
and
I
guess
at
the
weekend
when
she
couldn't
people
couldn't
come
in
for
the
england
game.
She
felt
she
was
letting
her
customers
down
a
little
bit,
and
I
think
it's
important
for
you
to
know
that,
because
this
isn't
often
in
these
situations,
people
trying
to
get
the
suspension
lifted
for
for
entirely
for
commercial
reasons.
It
isn't
just
about
that.
For
caroline,
she
wants
to
make
sure
that
her
customers
are
are
able
to
go
to
the
to
the
bar.
E
As
they've
not
been
able
to
for
a
long
time,
but
but
to
do
so
in
a
way
that
that
she
wants
to
ensure
that
they're
safe
so
a
little
bit
of
background
on
her
a
little
bit
of
background
on
the
on
caroline
herself
and
so
the
risk
assessment,
which
is,
I
guess,
the
principal
submission
I'm
making
today,
because,
ultimately,
if
you
are
minded
and
just
to
be
clear,
I
think
it's
quite
important.
You
know
what
I'm
asking
for
today.
I
am
asking
for
two
things.
E
E
E
E
It
goes
back
13
years
and
the
conditions
just
aren't
what
what
guess?
What
you
would
say.
You
know
contemporaneous
they're,
not
they're,
not
what
you
would
expect
to
see
on
a
new
application
now,
so
they
need
tidying
up
and
and
making
more
enforceable
and
and
precise
and
capable
of
being
met,
and
so
that's
something
I
I'll
undertake
to
do
now.
But
but
constable
reader
agrees
with
me
that
isn't
isn't
required
or
appropriate
at
this
stage.
E
Don't
know
why
that's
happened
but
anyway,
so
basically
ben
had
a
number
of
observations
about
the
about
the
the
second
risk
assessment
that
was
sent
through.
So
I'm
going
to
take
you
through
those
bullet
points
because
they've
all
been
addressed,
I
mean.
Obviously
you
say
that
he's
had
the
constructive
meeting
with
me.
E
These
highlighted
number
concerns
that
w
the
west
windows
police
have.
Some
of
these
concerns
could
be
addressed
by
further
enhancing
the
risk
assessment,
so
it
wasn't
that
he
rejected
the
risk
assessment,
but
he
just
think
there
could
have
been
improvements
and
that's
part
of
the
collaborative
process.
That's
encouraged
between
license
holders
and
responsible
authorities
and
something
I
will
always
try
and
engage
in.
So,
let's
just
go
through
these
bullet
points.
E
Conscious
of
my
20
minutes
as
well
page
two
number
of
attending
customers
overall,
we've
managed
to
ensure
there
is
plenty
of
space
for
groups,
so
he's
asked
to
confirm
what
the
capacity
is
well,
we
now
have
a
capacity,
so
I
know
that
the
the
western
police
revisited
the
premises
on
the
tuesday,
which
was
the
the
30th,
and
no
it
wasn't.
It
was
the
29th
forgive
me
and
there
was
which
was
the
the,
which
was
it
that
that
was
the
last
england
game.
Wasn't
it
was
that
the
cause?
E
It
was
a
quarterfinal?
Wasn't
it?
Yes,
it
was
thank
you,
and
so
there
were
a
number
of
people
outside
in
a
way
that
I
have
to
conceive,
wasn't
ideal.
I
do
concede
that
I
have
to
and
and
caroline
has
considered
that
so
what
she
is
doing,
even
though
it
is
over
and
above
what
the
legal
minimum
requirement
is,
is
she's
going
to
operate
the
rule
of
six,
not
just
inside
but
outside
as
well.
E
It's
a
big,
it's
a
big
unit
as
well.
So
I
would
say
unquestionably,
that's
a
safe
number
that
that
that
will
be
managed
by
that
there
are
three
individuals:
caroline
jenny
and
and
caroline's
daughter.
Casey
will
manage
the
numbers
there,
so
everyone
will
have
to
pre-book
and
that's
again
contained
in
the
euro
2020
risk
assessment
and
you
will
not
be
able
to
turn
up
without
having
made
that
booking
and
and
obviously
that
allows
a
greater
level
of
oversight
into
people
who
are
coming
down
to
the
premises.
E
Just
moving
on
to
the
next
bullet
point
and
staff
will
wear
masks
at
all
times
that
there
you
will
see
some
footage
where
staff
aren't
wearing
masks.
That's
not
been
as
rigorously
enforced
as
it
should.
That
has
to
be
conceded
again
by
the
premises,
but
but
caroline
will
not
only
ensure
that
happens
herself,
but
but
the
staff
will
have
to
sign
a
form
saying
they
agree
to
wear
a
mask,
and
obviously
there
are
exemptions
to
deal
with
that,
but
I
don't
think
there's
anyone
who's
exempt
towards
you.
E
There's
one
who's
excited
it's
an
old
lady
who
is
exempt,
but
but
otherwise
they'll
need
to
sign
that
the
mass
will
be
will
be
handed
out
when
they
sign
in
for
their
shift.
The
mass
will
be
located
at
the
same
point
so
that
that
that's
a
positive
measure.
That's
that's
going
to
be
taken
and
communication
to
the
sports
staff.
Well,
caroline
is
going
to
before
licensed
activities
recommend.
E
E
E
If
that
assists
in
any
way
kobe
marshall's
right
so
and
that's
sort
of
linked
in
to
door
supervisors,
because
the
premises
has
risk
assessed
the
position
with
regards
to
door
supervisors
and
first
of
all
I
can
say
I
can
say
this
with
using
my
I
guess
experience.
I've
got
in
terms
of
my
wider
client
base
getting
door.
Security
for
sunday
is
going
to
be
an
absolute
nightmare.
It's
going
to
be
difficult
at
the
moment.
It's
the
only
part
of
the
sector.
Actually,
it's
a
nightmare.
E
Well,
it's
not
getting
any
any
any
staff
at
the
moment.
Actually,
your
kitchen
staff
front
house
staff,
it's
it's
it
it
it's
it's
awful
for
most
premises,
but
certainly
getting
a
door
security,
but
there's
another
layer
to
this.
So
what
caroline
is
proposing
to
do
is
have
three
coved
marshals.
Now
these
aren't
some
randoms
that
have
been
pitched
off
the
street.
These
are
three,
ladies
in
their
50s,
who
are
all
extremely
well
known
within
the
premises.
E
They're
all
teachers
and
they've
got
close
links
to
the
getting
football
but
they're
on
the
committee.
They
are
so
big.
I've
already
explained
to
you
about
the
premises
being
very
much
rooted
in
the
irish
community
and,
as
a
consequence,
obviously,
and
being
in
birmingham
patrick's
day
is
a
huge
day
for
them,
and
these
ladies
act
as
marshals
on
on
some
patrick's
day
at
the
premises,
so
they
they
ensure
that
the
premises.
B
E
Operated
in
as
orderly
fashion
as
possible
on
that
day,
they've
also
got
experience,
has
covered
marshalls
and
covered
supervisors,
giving
whatever
title
you
wish
in
relation
to
the
again
in
football.
Why
that's
relevant
is
there
was
a
period
where
there
was
a
limit
to
30
spectators
and
what
so,
when
the
gaelic
football
team
was
playing.
These
three,
ladies,
were
wearing
their
high
vis
jackets
and
at
the
getty
football
ensuring
that
there
was
compliance
with
the
rules
there.
E
So
they
have
experience-
and
you
know
dealing
with
things
like
plastic,
glasses
and
and
other
muscles
like
that
they
will
be
distinguishable
in
the
premises
by
way
of
wearing
high-vis
jackets
and
they
are,
as
I
say,
extremely
well-known.
A
lot
of
their
sons
actually
work
in
the
premises
or
have
worked
in
their
premises
previously.
E
So
these
are
people
who
are
who
are
going
to
be
listened
to,
and
so
their
function
will
be
to
ensure
that
people
stay
where
they're
supposed
to
stay,
that
they
suck
they're
sat
down
and
that
they
are
operating
in
a
way
that
that
is
safe.
That
will
be
their
job,
there'll
be
one
outside
one
in
the
one.
E
These
premises
are
hugely
well
regarded
within
the
irish
community
locally
and
I
think
it's
right
to
say
that
the
customers
were
like
look.
I've
had
I've
had
a
girl
in
my
office
say
that
someone
that
she
didn't
even
know
I'd
been
given
this
instruction.
She
told
me
that
someone
she
knows
is
a
regular
there
and
he's
upset
about
the
premises
license
being
suspended.
So
these
are
these
are
so
why?
E
Why
that's
important
is
that
the
customers
as
well
have
got
a
vested
interest
in
this
application
succeeding
because
they
want
to
have
a
viable,
workable
community
premises
going
forward.
So
I
just
this,
isn't
just
some
you
know.
Premises
has
been
open
for
six
months
and,
and
it
is
long
established
and
well-regarded
and
within
its
within
its
community.
E
When
the
police
came
on
tuesday,
there
was
a
big
screen
and
I
think
it's
right
to
say
that
that
was
causing
some
difficulties
a
lot.
I
know
this
from
speaking
to
a
number
of
other
clients.
It's
a
nightmare
with
a
big
screen,
because
people
tend
to
gravitate
towards
it
and
and
and
that's
just
and
it
is,
it
is
not
easy.
E
That's
another
positive,
conscious
step
that
she's
taken
to
ensure
that
the
premises
operate
more
safely
than
they
did
on
the
on
on
the
on
the
27th
itself
and
then
there's
a
question
around
the
specific
risk
assessments
called
the
football
so
which
was
the
answer,
which
is
yes,
I'm
not
going
to
take
you
babe.
I
know
you'll
have
read
the
risk
assessment
and
it's
comprehensive.
E
E
You
know
the
police
want
to
view
cctv
and
then
certainly
under
certain
circumstances,
they'll
be
permitted
to
do
that.
So
you
can
be
sure
that
if
you
do
lift
the
suspension,
I
know
caroline
will
do
everything
in
in
her
power
and
and
and
her
capabilities,
which
are
significant
by
the
way
to
ensure
a
compliance
not
just
for
for
now
but
but
for
the
future
going
forward.
E
So
I'll
just
talk
a
little
bit
about
the
incident
itself.
There'd
been
a
wedding
the
day
before,
but
there'd
been
numbers.
It
been
originally
been
200
and
been
cut
down
to
18.
So
there
was
some
people
there
who
who
couldn't
go
to
the
wedding
and
and
look
there
are
things
in
there
that
that
shouldn't
have
happened.
There
were
people
stood
at
the
bar
have
to
concede.
That's
not
acceptable.
People
were
ordering
at
the
bar,
I
mean
there's
nothing
actually
preventing
people
ordering
at
the
bar.
E
I
had
this
discussion
with
helen
overton
this
morning,
but
but
they
should
be
served
at
a
table
and
they
weren't
served
at
the
table
so
concede
that
and
caroline
will
will
concede
that
that
things
are
probably
about
that
day
had
slipped
a
little.
She
was
expecting
problems
the
day
before
when
england
played
and
actually
didn't
have
any,
but
that
that's
that's.
You
shouldn't
never
take
your
eye
off
the
ball
in
the
license
premise:
the
assault
itself.
E
You
will
see
it's
a
cowardly,
but
so
the
the
the
the
ladder
who
got
hit
is
from
he
came
over
from
it's
awful.
He
came
over
from
ireland
for
the
weekend
for
the
wedding
he
there's
a
guy
stood
at
the
bar
who
is
bald
and
he
you'll
see
it
on
there.
He
does
a
snooker,
cue
action
behind
his
head
and
and
and
the
kid
who
hit
him,
wasn't
the
kid
who
who,
who
the
ball,
the
bald
lads
he
was.
He
was
his
friend
and
he
went
up
and
talked
to
him.
E
They
were
talking
for
a
bit
and
then
he
put
a
pint
glass
down
and
hit
the
injured
party.
From
behind
I
mean
it's
a
horrible,
but
look
it's
right
to
say
that
that
they
shouldn't
have
been
potentially
arguably
swimming
in
the
bar,
but
that
that
could
happen
in
any
licensed
premise.
It
could
and
and
does-
and
I
would
just
ask
you
to
take
into
account
the
previous
history
of
these
premises.
They
haven't
troubled
the
police
in
that
regard,
so
that
that's
it
really.
E
I'm
just
going
to
invite
you,
based
on
the
representations
that
I'm
making
today
to
lift
the
suspension,
reinstate,
caroline's,
dps
and
allow
her
and
look
well.
This
is,
I
know,
to
tell
you
this.
This
has
been
an
awful
year
for
licensed
trade
and
we
shouldn't
lose
sight
of
the
fact
that
licensed
premises
are
a
a
venue.
E
Customers
are
less
vigilant,
they're
less.
They
say
people
are
taking
more
risks
now
than
they
were
because
they
could
see
the
end
in
sight,
and
so
it's
incumbent
upon
licensed
premises
to
manage
that
situation
as
best
they
can.
But
this
has
been
a
truly
terrible
18
months
for
the
trade,
and
I
would
just
ask
you
on
on
the
basis
of
all
I've
said
and
carolina's
history
in
in
birmingham
and
within
the
trade
that
she
gets
this
opportunity.
E
I
think
she
deserves
this
opportunity
to
try
and
rectify
some
of
the
shortcomings
and
and
and
let
the
suspension
operate
with
this
risk
assessment
and
not
open
tonight,
as
I've
said
and
allow
her
to
do
what
she
does
best,
which
is
to
run
a
pub
in
the
best
interest
of
the
local
community.
So
those
are
my
those
are
my
representations
to
you.
A
H
Yes,
thank
you,
chad.
I
may
you
raised
two
questions
in
my
mind
about
you
know
in
terms
of
the
address
you've.
Just
given
us
and
and
you've
been
very
frank
about
the
fact
that
the
premises
fell
short
of
its
obligations.
I
don't
think
you've
made
any
attempt
to
cover
that
up
at
all,
but
the
two
questions,
in
my
mind,
really
are
about
compliance
and
supervision.
C
H
Compliance
with
the
copied
regulations,
which
are
still
in
force,
as
far
as
I
know,
despite
the
fact
of
course,
there's
been
some
relaxations
about
people
being
able
to
go
into,
and
it's
just
a
question
about.
For
instance,
you,
the
fact
that
everybody
knows
everybody
else
in
this
pub,
the
dps
has
been
in
the
trade
for
a
very
very
long
time,
and
even
if
they've
not
had
any
problems
with
the
police
before
those
covered,
there's
probably
the
guidance
should
really
have
been
adhered
to.
H
And
that
brings
me
to
the
question
of
supervision
you
see
because,
even
though
I
understand
what
you're
saying
about
things
can
happen
in
any
pub,
the
fact
is
that
there
were
a
lot
of
people
moving
around.
There
were
people
at
the
bar
and
my
understanding
of
the
copied
regulations
are
still
or
the
guidance
is
still
that
there
shouldn't
be
that
much
movement
allowed.
H
So
it
isn't
the
questions,
I
suppose,
in
my
mind,
are
really
whether
retrospectively
the
premises
can
go
back
to
compliance,
which
should
have
been
there
in
the
first
place
and
also
whether
the
supervision
that
should
have
been
there
before
can
now
be
reinstated
to
ensure
that
things
like
this
don't
happen
again,
both
the
covid
compliance
and,
indeed
the
safety
regulations
for
individual
members.
Yes,
thank
you.
Thank
you.
E
E
Before
the
england
game
the
night
before-
and
it
was
it
was-
it
was
a
relatively
quiet
night
on
the
sunday
and
and
so
that
I
hope
that
addresses
your
supervision
point.
What
what
having
spoken
to
her
a
lot?
I
I'm
just
giving
you
my
my
perspective
on
this,
but
it's
not
like
the
premises
haven't
been
compliant.
It's
like
they
haven't
been
doing
anything
that
they
have
they've,
been
doing
lots
of
things.
They've
been
taking
people's
details.
They've
been
you
know,
I've
walked
around
the
premises
and.
E
Certainly
it
was
just
that
particular
night,
but
I
I
don't
want
to.
If
I
give,
if
I
perhaps
under
undersold,
caroline
in
terms
of
her
responsibilities,
it
was
just
that
night
things
things
things
fell
below
where
they
should,
but
it's
not
that
the
premises
has
not
been
complying
and
they
have
and-
and
certainly
I've
seen
evidence
of
that
but
caroline
in
terms
of
going
forward
throughout
the
next.
H
E
Sorry,
I
know
the
answer
to
that
and
I
should
have
made
this
point
and
thank
you
I
didn't
make
the
point
because
I
think
it
is
quite
important
is
casey.
Was
there
who
the
eponymously
named
casey
and
she
in
fact
called
the
ambulance
she
cut
she
down.
999
and
you'll
see
the
the
victim.
The
injured
party
stays
with
him
lying
prostate.
So
perhaps
caroline
is
better
place
to
answer
that
in
a
bit
more
detail
about
about
the
supervision
that
night
so
I'll
just
turn
the
laptop
to
her.
F
Hi,
so
so,
with
the
euros
we've
overstaffed
it
so
we've
always
had
about
nine
members
of
staff
working
and,
of
course
we
have
there's
jolene
jess,
my
daughter,
casey
and
myself.
So
with
all
the
euro
games,
we
all
have
to
do.
The
four
of
us
have
to
work
for
all
the
england
games.
So
on
the
saturday
there
was
an
england
game
and
then
on
the
sunday
I
did,
I
suspect
case
two
of
the
girls
took
it,
which
is
casey
and
jess
and
spoke
to
casey.
F
No,
it's
quiet,
you
don't
need
it's
quiet,
there's
only
about
25,
30
people
and
you
don't
know,
of
course,
I'm
at
home
I'll
check.
You
know
like
wrangler,
again
all
right,
casey
everything
all
right,
yeah,
it's
fine!
It's
quiet!
The
the
lads
that
drink
in
the
bar
they'd
played
golf
in
the
day.
They
were
all
gone
by
six,
seven
clutches:
it's
really
quiet
still.
I
think
it's
not
that
many
in
here.
F
So
you
take
that
on
in
that
three
members
of
staff
with
whereas
the
night
before
maybe
180
people,
9
members
of
staff
and
with
all
the
games
in
the
euros
we
haven't
had
one
bit
of
bother.
No,
no,
no
trouble,
no,
nothing
and
just
unfortunate
that
night,
which
you
know
partly,
is
to
blame
for
us,
because
we
probably
should
have
had
people
seated,
probably
which
we
thought
30
people.
F
We
know
the
whole
lot
in
there
took
our
foot
off
the
pedal
coming
towards
the
ends
of
covid
and-
and
it
just
was
a
real
unfortunate
incident
that
happened,
and
we
were
just
all
you
know,
upset
about
it
and
you
know
that's
that's
what
happened
but
casey
then,
when
it
happened,
she
rang
999.
She
stayed
with
the
guy.
The
other
girl
just
who
was
working
with
her
paramedics
were
talking
to
her.
What
to
do.
You
know
you
know
and
talked
her
through
all
that.
F
E
E
Obviously
the
police
have
been
assisted
with
the
cctv
in
terms
of
the
investigation,
but
I
don't
think
it's
going
to
be
particularly
a
difficult
investigation
because
he
handed
himself
into
the
police
the
next
morning
and
has
confessed
to
the
crime.
So
at
least
the
victim
will
be
spared
the
the
trouble
of
going
through
a
trial,
et
cetera,
he's
fest
up
to
that,
and
quite
right
too.
E
He's
got
nowhere
to
go
looking
at
the
footage,
because
the
quality
of
the
cctv
is
good
and
there's
no
way
on
this
planet.
He'll
be
able
to
claim
self-defense
given
he's
hit
the
guy
from
behind,
and
I've
done
a
bit
of
criminal
law
before
my
licensing
practice
got
really
motoring
and,
in
my
opinion,
even
if
he
pleads
guilty
he,
he
he'll
almost
certainly
get
a
little
bit
of
time
for
it,
maybe
18
months.
Something
like
that.
A
F
So
what
what
casey
has
done,
because
she
she's
on
social
media?
Obviously
I'm
not.
She
set
up
the
casey
joe's
instagram
page,
so
what
you
had
to
do
each
week
and
the
tables
were
released
at
like
10
a.m
on
a
wednesday
morning
and
the
bookings
came
through
her
name
address.
Did
you
want
two
four
or
six?
She
managed
them
all.
F
F
You
know
like
so
that
the
book
it
done
a
booking
system
through
that,
then,
when
you
came
in,
you
gave
your
name
addressed
and
you
retained
it,
but
being
honest
with
you,
I'd
say:
80
percent
of
the
tables
were
known,
customers
so,
and
that
was
through
all
the
the
your
own
or
through
the
matches.
The
games.
F
People
did
the
phone
up,
but
if
it
was
easier
in
case,
if
you
had,
if
casey
just
managed
it
on
her
own,
so
she
she's
done
it.
She's
done
the
bookings
and
through
set
up
casey
joe's
instagram,
and
then
you
message:
can
I
have
a
table
for
six
and
being
honest
with
you?
Probably
there
was,
half
of
them
were
mostly
gone
for
the
euros
because
of
our
gaelic
football
club.
Obviously,
the
majority
of
the
players
are
aged
between
20
and
30
35
years
of
age
so
and
they
are
regular
customers.
A
G
Thank
you
chair,
oh
yeah.
Camera
should
be
on
that,
so
hopefully
you
can.
All
you
can
see
us
over
here
in
in
terms
of
a
presentation.
I
haven't
got
a
a
formal
presentation
to
give
because
that's
been
delivered
at
the
first
hearing.
What
what
I've
got
really
is
a
number
of
bullet
points
to
address
matters
that
have
been
raised
by
mr
craig
and
I'll
go
through
those
I'm
conscious
that
you
haven't
seen
the
incident.
G
G
C
A
G
Thank
you,
chair
I'll,
continue
with
the
presentation,
then
view
the
cctv
so
to
start
within
a
point
of
procedure.
The
evidence
that
we're
going
to
go
through
today
and
the
comments
I'm
going
to
make
are
primarily
going
to
focus
on
everything
that
was
contained
within
the
section
53
certificate
that
was
submitted.
As
mr
craig's
already
disclosed.
G
The
follow-up
visit
has
been
conducted
to
the
premises,
I'm
not
serving
evidence
of
that
follow-up
visit,
because
that's
not
relevant
to
the
initial
proceedings
that
you
know
the
reason
that
we're
here
under
the
section
53,
so
I've
only
served
on
the
councillors
that
short
clip
that
you've
all
seen
this
morning.
That
was
the
same
that
the
committee
saw
on
friday.
As
duncan's
also
said,
we
we
had
a
meeting
yesterday.
That
was
a
lloyd
house
police
headquarters.
G
In
order
to
allow
mr
crater
to
best
defend
his
client
and
understand
exactly
what
was
going
on,
I
have
shown,
mr
craig
more
evidence
that
has
been
disclosed
to
this
committee,
so
he
has
seen
a
longer
cctv
clip,
which
is
what
he's
talked
about
other
things
that
you
haven't
yet
seen.
Those
are
matters
that
I
was
going
to
bring
to
the
full
hearing.
G
I
made
a
member
of
staff
aware
that
the
license
was
suspended,
that
the
premises
was
open
and
they
were
serving
alcohol.
I
don't
intend
to
to
follow
that
up
further
or
look
for
any
form
of
prosecution
other
than
the
fact
that
it
seemed
to
be
a
genuine
mistake
and
the
person
who
had
opened
the
premises
was
not
aware
that
the
suspension
had
been
implemented
and
yeah.
I'm
happy
that
that
is
dealt
with.
G
I
think
it
needs
to
be
mentioned,
but
I'm
not
asking
you
to
take
any
action
on
the
back
of
that.
There
were
some
conversations
that
took
place
on
saturday
morning
and
then,
when
myself
and
mark
swallow
left
the
location,
we
were
told
that
the
premises
would
would
allow
some
customers
in
and
that
they
would
be
given
free
alcohol
that
the
license
wouldn't
be
engaged
because
they
accepted
it
was
suspended.
G
G
G
G
I'm
not
really
hung
up
on
the
plan,
it's
more
so
that
plan
was
an
indication
of
numbers
to
give
me
a
capacity
for
each
room,
to
give
me
an
overall
capacity
for
that
premises.
That
has
now
been
provided
and
we're
told
that
the
premises
can
safely
seat.
144
people,
I'm
happy
that
that
is
the
figure
that's
been
done
by,
as
I
say,
by
a
third
party,
who's
well
known
to
us,
I'm
comfortable
that
that's
an
appropriate
number
and
I'm
not
seeking
to
challenge
to
challenge
that.
G
We've
heard
that
the
premises
don't
intend
to
open
for
the
football
this
evening.
The
football
was
one
of
the
significant
areas
of
concern
because
of
the
of
the
popularity
and
the
crowd
numbers
and
how
difficult
it
is
to
control
a
football
crowd,
especially
if
england
are
victorious
tonight.
So
I
would
welcome
the
fact
that
they've
made
a
a
decision
to
not
open
this,
which
gives
them
enough
time
to
put
measures
in
place
and
training
etc.
Before
the
final
on
sunday
should
england
progress.
G
G
I
would
like
to
think
that,
as
the
license
holder
in
the
dps,
we
wouldn't
have
seen
some
of
the
lacks
measures
in
place
that
we've
we've
witnessed
on
on
that
short
clip
that
we've
seen,
we've
also
been
told
that
they
won't
be
using
a
big
screen
again
westminster
police
would
welcome
that
decision,
because
the
control
measures
around
that
external
area
for
the
big
screen
were
were
a
cause
of
concern.
The
number
of
particularly
younger
people
gathered
around
that
big
screen
outside
was
was
an
area
of
concern
for
us.
G
We've
heard
about
masks,
we've
heard
that
only
one
person
on
the
staff
is
exempt,
so
I
would
expect
to
see
every
member
of
staff
by
that
one
person
wearing
a
mask.
That
hasn't
been
the
case
on
previous
visits.
So
I
think
we
just
need
confidence
that
that
caroline
is
going
to
follow
this
risk
assessment,
and
you
know
take
it
seriously
to
the
point
that
all
staff
will
have
masks
on
and
that
they
will
be
challenging
people.
G
We
welcome
the
additional
staff
training
we've
heard
about
three
covered
marshalls
and
mr
craig's
talked
about
their
credibility
within
within
the
crowd
that
would
attend
this
premises.
I
think
that
the
suggestion
of
three
coded
marshals
to
control
the
premises
that
I
saw
on
tuesday
evening,
I
would
say
that
that
would
be
insufficient
based
on
the
large
numbers
we've
got
in
that
external
area.
G
So
it's
it's
down
to
the
premises,
to
stick
to
their
risk
assessment,
to
make
sure
that
they
have
got
those
those
numbers
in
place
and
then
I
believe
that
those
covered
marshals
will
be
able
to
to
control
and
enforce
those
regulations
within
there.
If,
if
the
numbers
are
what
they
were
last
time,
I
don't
think
three
would
be
sufficient.
So
it's
it's
taken
for
the
it's
taking
their
assessment
on
face
value.
G
I've
covered
off
the
the
alcohol
on
saturday,
the
the
other
thing
that
I
would
bring
up,
which
is
just
commenting
on
what
what
the
license
holder
has
said.
When
she
talked
about
sunday
evening.
She
said
that
she
spoke
to
a
daughter.
There
were
25
to
30
people
in
it
was
quiet
and
it
was
easy
to
control.
It
should
have
been
easy
to
control.
G
Sorry,
in
my
opinion,
if
you've
only
got
25
to
30
people
there,
that
that
should
be
a
situation
where
you're
not
being
challenged,
and
you
should
have
time
to
control.
As
we'd
said
at
the
previous
hearing,
if
tides
control
measures
had
been
in
place
and
everyone
was
sat
down
with
service
to
the
tables
we
we
may
not
have
had
that
escalation
to
the
assault
that
we've
that
we've
just
viewed.
G
So
it
really
is
about
whether,
as
as
a
committee,
you've
got
confidence
that
this
that
this
risk
assessment
and
this
overhaul
will
be
complied
with,
and
and
that's
exactly
where
we're
at.
If,
if
I
was
given
this
risk
assessment
and
this
paperwork
prior
to
an
event,
I'd
be
happy
with
it,
because
I
think
that
it's,
it
shows
a
number
of
control
measures
and
then
visiting
the
premises.
I
would
expect
to
see
this.
This
risk
assessment
being
adhered
to.
G
As
I've
said,
it's
down
to
confidence
in
the
license
holder
and
it's
what
the
process
that
they've
been
through.
What's
happened
on
saturday,
the
loss
of
revenue.
All
of
these
matters,
I'm
sure,
will
will
focus
the
license
holders
attention
to
ensure
that
this
is
complied
with.
Should
you
decide
to
to
lift
the
suspension,
obviously
there's
a
number
of
weeks
until
the
final
hearing.
During
that
time
they
will
be
visited
by
licensing
officers.
A
H
Thank
you,
chad.
Yes,
if
I
may,
the
the
word
you've
used
twice
is
confidence,
and
it
really
is.
That
is
the
key
issue
in
my
mind.
How
confident
can
we
be
about
implementing
the
risk
assessments?
Implementing
changes
have
been
made
about
the
numbers
about
the
spacing
about
people
being
seated
and
about
being
served
and
so
on.
G
I
think
the
premises
know
that
they've
had
legal
advice,
and
I
think
that
they
will
be
cautious
to
to
allow
anything
like
that
to
happen,
knowing
that
it
will
be
put
forward
forward
before
yourselves
again
in
two
to
three
weeks
time,
when
we
have
the
full
hearing,
we
we
have
to
have
faith
in
them.
I
think,
and
we
we
will
conduct
visits
to
ensure
that
those
measures
are
are
being
carried
out.
D
D
A
G
Thank
you
councillors,
I've,
nothing
further
to
add.
I
think
I've
covered
everything.
I've
addressed
all
the
points
that
have
been
raised
by
mr
craig.
We've
seen
the
cctv
we
know
what's
happened.
What
we
want
is
to
get
to
a
position
where
that
can't
happen
again,
because
we've
got
adequate
control
measures
in
place.
This
risk
assessment
gives
the
is
a
tool
kit
for
the
premises
to
do
that.
They
need
to
comply
with
that
and,
as
you've
pointed
out,
it's
it's
just
whether
we
have
confidence
that
they
are
going
to
do
that.
Thank
you.
A
E
Yeah
I'll
just
I'll
just
I'll
respond
to
the
to
the
two
questions
but
I'll
just
I'll
say
this
now,
while
we're
in
an
open
session
definitively
the
premises
closed,
half
five
six
o'clock
on
saturday
and
I
am
in
a
position
to
provide
footage
to
the
police
to
demonstrate
that.
But
in
actual
fact
the
police
drove
round
the
block
it
wasn't.
I
don't
think
it
was
mark
and
ben.
I
think,
whoever
the
local
community
officers
they
drove
around
there.
E
E
We
have
a
degree
position
with
the
police
in
respect
of
the
merits
of
the
risk
assessment
itself,
and
so
the
remaining
question
is
about
caroline's
ability
to
to
deliver
on
that
and
look
she's
got
a
huge
amount
of
experience
in
the
trade
running
apprentices
for
a
long
time.
That's
not
been
on
on
the
radar.
She
understands
the
requirements
in
the
in
the
in
the
risk
assessment
and
it's
right
to
say
that
she's
been
involved
in
its
evolution.
It's
not
just
a
case
that
helen
overton
has
sent
her
a
document.
E
She's
been,
I
know,
she's
I've
been
involved
in
the
communication
between
the
two
of
them
and
I've
been
in
the
middle
and
I've
been
asked
to
advise
on
certain
aspects
of
it
and
I've
been
liaising.
So
this
has
been
a
she.
This
is
a
document
that
she
has
helped
devise
and
create
so
and
she
understands
and
and
she's
made
decisions
around
the
operation
of
the
business
herself.
E
So
she
understands-
and
she
also
understands
you
know,
what's
at
stake,
if
you're,
if
you're
going
to
take,
I
think
counselor
striker
wells
said
a
leap
of
faith
to
an
extent
she's
inviting
you
to
do
that.
But
it's
not
a
blind
leap
of
faith.
She
has
a
an
established
track
record
and
she
understands
what
she
needs
to
do
and
given
her
track
record
track
record
in
the
in
in
the
trade
and
her
experience,
you
you
can
with
confidence
and
from
the
view
that
she
will.
E
She
will
do
that
and
of
course
there
are
consequences
if
that
doesn't
pan
out
as
as
intended.
So
for
that
reason,
I
would
invite
you
just
to
be
clear
to
lift
the
suspension
and
to
reinstate
who's
dps,
and
can
I
just
say
I
will
ensure,
as
I
always
do,
I
will
liaise
with
the
police
throughout
the
next
throughout
the
process
up
to
run
including
the
next
hearing
and
should
any
issues
arise.
I
will
ensure
that
I
act
as
a
go-between
and
I
will
do
my
utmost.
E
It's
part
of
my
job
is
to
ensure
that
caroline
gets
as
positive
and
outcomes
as
she
can
from
this.
So
I'm
not
just
going
to
walk
away
after
this
hearing.
I
don't
do
that.
That's
not
how
I
operate.
I
will
I
will
I
will.
I
will
continue
to
be
involved
and
do
my
best
to
help
caroline
deliver.
If
you
show
her
the
faith
that
I'm
asking
you
to
today.
Thank
you.
F
Just
if
anybody
wants
to
ask
me
any
questions,
I
can
just
guarantee
that,
like
obviously
the
the
mask
and
lots
of
situations
come
a
bit
on
the
19th
of
july,
so
all
I
can
do
is
guarantee
over
the
next
two
weeks,
which
is
our
busy
time,
is
obviously
weekends
and
just
to
let
you
know
a
bit
about
cases
monday
to
thursday
it
isn't
busy
in
the
lounge
or
the
outside
area.
So
we
actually
only
have
the
bar
area
open.
F
We
don't
open
the
lounge
or
the
outside
during
the
week
and
we
just
have
a
front
bar
that
holds
30
people,
I'm
six
community
club.
That's
the
only
part
we
have
to
open
on
a
monday
to
thursday.
So
it's
basically
for
us
to
make
sure
that
everything's
right
for
the
next
two
weekends
until
monday,
the
19th
of
july,
when
some
of
the
restrictions
are
lifted.