►
Description
Docket #0329 - Regarding police contracts as policy documents
A
By
my
colleagues,
counselor
campbell
who's,
co-sponsored
this
order
with
me
and
counselor
edwards
and
also
by
councillor
arroyo
and
councilor
flynn.
Thank
you
all
and
counselor
baker.
Thank
you
all
for
being
here.
This
working
session
is
being
recorded
and
live
streamed.
It's
at
boston.gov
city
dash
council
dash
tv
and
broadcast
on
xfinity
channel,
8,
rcn,
channel
82
and
fios
channel
964..
A
A
This
is
a
hearing
order
that
we
originally
filed,
counselors
campbell
and
edwards,
and
I
last
july
really
focused
on
many
of
the
many
of
the
issues
that
had
come
up
in
relation
to
our
police
budget
and
the
operations
of
the
police
department
and
the
fact
that
a
huge
number
of
the
issues
that
we
were
hearing
about
from
the
public
and
that
kind
of
affect
the
sort
of
policy
level
of
policing
are
actually
importantly,
determined
by
our
contracts
with
our
various
police
officer
unions,
and
so
that
puts
the
council
in
a
strange
position
where
you
know
we're
big
believers.
A
In
collective
bargaining
and
unionism
in
boston
and
collective
bargaining,
agreements
are
reached
at
the
table
between
the
city,
administration
and
the
unions,
and
the
council's
only
role
is
to
approve
or
disapprove
those
agreements
at
the
end
of
the
process
and
yet
important
public
policy
decisions
about
the
way
that
we
keep
our
communities
safe,
are
are
being
made
de
facto
by
those
contracts
and
and
those
public
policy
questions
are
you
know
important
ones
for
the
council
to
wrestle
with
and
and
pretty
key
to
thinking
about
what
the
future
of
good
policing
in
our
city
looks
like
and
so
filed
this
hearing
order
last
july
and
had
some
hearing
and
working
session
on
it
really.
A
You
know
sort
of
equity
with
ours,
with
our
civilians,
our
civilian
departments,
that
that
those
things
are
top
of
mind
for
the
parties
of
the
negotiations,
so
that
we
get
the
kind
of
reform-minded
contracts
that
the
council
can
support
going
forward.
So
I've
really
been
trying
to
make
sure
that
as
a
committee,
the
ways
and
means
committee.
A
This
is
where
all
the
contracts
come
that
we're
really
thinking
about
this
and
doing
the
work
as
a
council
to
think
about
it
and
articulate
some
of
those
expectations
prior
to
the
next
round
of
police
contracts
coming
before
us
and
those
contracts
all
expired
back
on
june
30th
of
2020.
So
so
we
know
that
we're
in
a
for
the
city's
in
a
process
right
now
of
negotiating
a
new
round
of
those.
A
And
so
I
think
this
is
the
perfect
time
to
be
having
having
this
conversation
and
now,
of
course,
we
find
ourselves
heading
into
another
budget
cycle,
and
I
think
it
probably
became
even
more
relevant
at
our
hearing
last
week
or
two
weeks
ago,
where
we
learned
that
the
department
has
significantly
overrun
the
police
overtime
budget
again,
and
I
think
the
more
we
dig
in
on
issues
there.
A
You
know
there's
lots
of
external
issues,
all
kinds
of
different
things
going
on,
but
one
of
the
big
drivers-
well,
one
of
the
big
categories
of
drivers
are
the
ways
that
our
contracts
are
written
and
how
they
deal
with
overtime.
And
so
it's
just
raised
again.
The
fact
that
this
is
a
this
is
an
area
with
immediate
public
policy
implications
for
the
council.
A
For
you
know,
every
dollar
we
spend
on
something
is
a
dollar
we're,
not
spending
elsewhere,
and
this
council
actually
took
a
strong
position
in
2016
that
it
was
going
to
have
more
scrutiny
on
the
fiscal
responsibility
of
public
safety
contracts
going
forward.
So
I
really
see
this
as
a
fulfillment
of
that
this
working
session
today
is
really
more
internal.
We
we
will
be
joined
by
pam
coker
from
the
boston
municipal
research
bureau,
but
you
know
I
had.
A
I
had
produced
a
memo
that
was
kind
of
a
summary
of
of
some
of
the
conversation
that
we
had
last
year
and
in
order
for
counselors
to
talk
to
each
other
about
it
and
about
things
that
each
of
us
thinks
are
important
when
we
think
about
the
policy
implications
of
the
police
contracts-
and
you
know
I'm
sure
we
have
different
differing
views
represented
in
the
body
for
us
to
have
that
conversation.
We
have
to
have
it
in
public,
and
so
that's
what
a
working
session
is
right.
A
Is
it's
a
chance
for
us
to
talk
about
those
things
with
each
other,
and
I'm
I'm
hoping
that
we
can
move
towards
some
consensus
on
those
broad
policy
expectations
that
we
can
set
for
the
folks
who
are
who
are
at
the
table
going
forward.
So
that's
sort
of
the
context
for
the
conversation
today
and-
and
you
know
this
doesn't-
this
is
not
necessarily
going
to
be
a
long
working
session.
A
I
want
to
make
sure
that
I
kind
of
give
everybody
who's
here
the
floor
and
like
and
after
we
go
through
counselors,
we'll
also
go
to
pam
and
and
just
kind
of
get
things
out
on
the
table
for
for
further
work
on
this
front,
because
you
know
the
the
the
contracts
are
really.
A
I
think
about
that
metaphor
of
the
iceberg
and
kind
of
you
know,
10
above
the
water
and
90
is
under
when
we
think
about
policing
in
our
city,
how
it's
structured,
how
it
works
financially
and
in
terms
of
accountability
and
discipline,
really
the
contract
for
the
90.
A
That's
that's
under
the
surface,
so
we're
trying
to
bring
that
out
and
have
a
public
conversation
about
it
so
yeah,
so
that
that's
sort
of
the
opening
frame,
I'll
I'll,
add
some
remarks
of
my
own
later.
But
but
I
want
to
go
first
start
with
my
council
colleague,
who
is
the
chair
of
public
safety
and
my
co-sponsor
on
this
agenda.
Item
counselor,
andrea
campbell.
B
Thank
you,
councillor
bach,
and,
of
course
thank
you,
as
always
for
the
partnership
on
these
issues.
It's
great
to
see
you
long
time,
no
see,
obviously
we're
just
talking
this
morning
about
budget.
So
thank
you
for
your
continued
leadership,
your
team
as
well,
and
for
taking
the
lead
on
putting
together
that
document,
which
is
just
incredible
and,
of
course,
we'll
stay
in
contact
on
it.
B
I
also
want
to,
of
course
thank
councillor
edwards
for
the
partnership
here,
and
I
do
think
it's
important
to
stress-
and
we
stress
this
at
the
very
first
hearing
on
this
very
topic-
that
we
are
absolutely
in
favor
of
labor
laws
and
the
spirit
of
negotiating
and
collective
bargaining
etc,
and
that
really
this
is
designed
to
be
able
to
not
only
share
council
priorities
but
also
that
of
the
constituents
we
serve
and
to
allow
for
greater
communication
and
partnership
before
we
have
to
take
action
on
these
contracts
in
the
future,
and
just
yesterday,
I
in
my
office
held
a
conversation
with
a
whole
host
of
advocates
who
have
for
years
and
will
continue
to
push
for
policing,
reform
implementation,
of
course,
of
the
reforms
that
this
body
and
administration
and
task
force
committed
to.
B
But
one
of
the
things
that
came
up
was
the
contracts,
and
I
think
some
of
what
you
have
captured
in
the
document
reflect
their
desires
and
concerns,
and
so
I
know
when
we
get
into
it
that
will
come
up,
but
what
was
important
to
folks
is
one.
This
is
timely.
This
is
a
very
timely
issue.
B
We
have
to
move
with
a
sense
of
urgency
on
this,
as
we
come
to
a
point
where
these
negotiations
will
come
to
an
end.
So
this
is
timely.
This
is
an
opportunity
for
us
to
lift
up
concerns.
B
We've
heard
over
the
years
to
prioritize
what
the
community
wants
to
hear,
not
just
with
respect
to
say,
body
cameras
or
over
time,
universal
body,
cameras
or
overtime
regulations
or
minimums
disciplinary
practices,
of
course,
of
our
officers,
training
requirements,
but
also
how
we
allow
folks,
who
are
going
to
be
in
need
of
jobs
coming
out
of
covid,
have
access
to
unionized
jobs
via
some
of
these
details,
which,
of
course
have
to
also
be
be
conducted
or
discussed
in
collaboration
with
the
contract
conversation.
So
I
know
residents
are
excited
about
this
conversation.
B
I
will
continue
to
bring
their
ideas
forward.
Much
of
that
is
reflected
in
the
document
already.
So
thank
you
to
your
team
as
well,
and
thank
you
councillor
bach,
for
your
leadership.
Look
forward
to
continuing
to
work
in
partnership
with
you,
other
council
colleagues,
as
well
as
folks
in
the
community.
A
Great,
thank
you
so
much
counselor
campbell,
and
I
want
to
note
that
we've
also
been
joined
by
councillors,
mejia
and
braden,
and
I
think
I
said
counselor
baker,
but
in
case
I
didn't
so
yeah.
So
I
think
probably
what
makes
sense
is
to
I'll
run
through
council
colleagues
and
if
there's
anything
that
you,
you
know
that
you
want
to
speak
to
in
general
on
this
topic
or
if
you
want
to
drill
in
on
specific
things
that
were
in
the
document
that
you
think
should
be.
A
There
shouldn't,
be
there
particular
issues
that
you
that
you
really
want
to
have
us
focus
on
in
the
when
we
think
about
setting
expectations
on
this
front.
Counselor
campbell
just
referred
to
the
details
issue.
That's
that's
something
which,
although
we
we
often
talk
about
the
fact
that
police
details
are
not
exactly
a
budget
issue,
because
they're
paid
for
by
construction
companies
and
utilities.
A
They
are
a
contract
issue,
because
the
whole
way
that
the
detail
system
works
is
laid
out
in
the
police
contract
in
a
way
that
makes
it
challenging
for
us
to
think
about.
You
know
opportunities
for
good
civilian
jobs
with
some
of
those,
including
including
the
tens
of
thousands
of
details
that
go
unfilled
in
our
current
system.
There's
no
mechanism
for
civilians
to
take
those
over
right
now,
so
that's
it!
Thank
you,
councillor
campbell.
I
think
that
is
an
example
of
something
that
we
could
push
on
going
forward.
I'll
go
to.
A
C
Thank
you
and
I'll
be
brief.
I
think
the
major
aspect
of
this
that
we've
seen
that
people
have
seen
that
that
has
been
a
a
thing
is
the
vast
disparity
between
the
pay
increases
and
the
salaries
between
officers
and
other
city
workers.
C
We
know
that
in
2019,
80
of
the
top
100
highest
paid
city,
employees
were
officers,
that's
80
of
the
top
100
and
that's
not
to
say
that
you
know
they're
not
doing
good
work,
but
those
rates
and
those
percentages
and
what
we're
looking
at
in
terms
of
what's
baked
into
these
contracts
is
so
different.
C
So
far,
apart
from
what
other
city
employees
are
making,
who
are
also
doing
great
work-
and
I
would
say
on
the
detail
front
just
real
briefly-
I'm
not
a
hundred
percent
positive
that
that
isn't
a
taxpayer
issue
in
the
sense
that
when
public
works
is
doing
city
work-
and
we
require
details
for
that-
I
do
believe
that
we've
found
that
those
costs
get
baked
into
the
contracts
that
we
essentially
have
to
sign.
C
It's
not
a
you
know,
de
facto
payment
for
a
detail,
but
it's
certainly
a
cost
that
when
we
do
city
public
works
projects
and
we
require
details,
the
contractors
who
are
doing
that
bake
those
costs
into
what
we
pay
them,
and
so
that's
just
real.
That's
a
taxpayer
issue.
We
can.
We
can
you
know
just
because
somebody
else
makes
that
payment
on
behalf
of
us
just
because
there's
a
middleman
on
that
contractor
upfront
doesn't
mean
that
it's
not
city
money
or
tax
money
paying
for
that.
C
Ultimately-
and
so
you
know
on
that
front
there
and
then
on
the
the
final
aspect
of
this,
you
know.
I
know
that
this
is
something
that's
going
to
come
before
the
council.
At
some
point
I
don't
know
if
we
have
a
timeline,
it's
obviously
timely
because
that's
we
know
it's
coming
whether
it's
this
year
or
in
the
following
year.
C
There
will
be
something
and
when
we
talk
about
the
goals
of
ensuring
transparency
and
accountability,
a
lot
of
those
things
get
baked
into
how
we
do
this
contract
and
what
comes
out
of
this
contract,
and
so
I'm
here
mostly
to
listen.
I
know
there's
some
folks
on
here
that
will
have
opinions
that
I'm
very
interested
in
hearing,
and
so
with
that
I'll
hand
it
back
to
you,
madam
chair,
but
I
don't
have
too
many
questions.
I
thought
the
document
that
we've
all
been
shared
on
was
relatively
thorough.
So
thank
you.
D
Thank
you,
council
block,
and
to
the
sponsors
for
calling
this
calling
this
hearing.
It's
an
important
discussion
that
we're
that
we're
having
so
I'm
looking
forward
to
learning
more
about
it
learning
about
the
upcoming
contracts
as
well,
just
as
a
way
of
background.
D
I
know
this
body
has
always
supported
the
rights
of
men
and
women
to
organize
into
co-active
bargaining.
I
was
on
the
pickup
line
this
morning
with
local
local
26
hotel
workers,
and
we
see
as
a
result,
as
a
result
of
this
pandemic.
We
see
a
lot
of
these
workers
being
being
fired.
D
So
I
I
think
that
part
is
is
important
to
to
focus
on
as
well.
I
also
want
to
focus
on
as
we
talk
about
the
as
we
talk
about
the
contract.
I
want
to
learn
more
about.
You
know
what
are
some
of
the
you
know:
the
police
have
been
hit
hard
on
this
pandemic.
D
A
lot
of
police
officers
and
their
families
have
been
impacted
by
this
pandemic.
Many
police
officers
have
have
have
had
covet
19.,
and
I
just
want
to
see
what
the
short-term
public
health
issues
are,
and
the
long-term
public
health
concerns
for
them
and
their
families
in
making
sure
that,
as
as
city
employees,
that
they
get
the
necessary
medical
care
that
they
they're
entitled
to,
including
including
time
off
as
well.
D
It's
a
stressful
job
and
we
have
to
make
sure
that
wellness
programs
are
also
part
of
this
of
this
contract,
and
you
know,
I
think
I
think
it's
important
also
to
to
hear
from
the
various
police
unions.
I'm
not
sure.
If
were
we
expecting
to
hear
from
the
police
unions
on
this
council
book.
A
So
we're
we're
slightly
awkwardly
constrained
councillor
flynn
because
of
the
charter
limitation
against
the
council,
negotiating
with
with
sort
of
our
public
service
unions,
we're
we're
not
generally
advised
to
invite
them
to
talk
to
us
on
a
contract
matter.
So
it
is
unfortunate.
I
agree
with
you.
D
Okay,
yeah.
No
thank
thank
you,
council
block.
That
makes
that
makes
sense,
and
I
just
want
to
highlight
one
issue
on
on
details
on
police
details.
I
would
like
to
know
the
number
of
arrests
police
officers
have
made
on
details.
I
think
it's
I
think
it's
extremely
high
and
I
think
the
boston
police
have
you
know.
D
Not
only
are
they
doing
a
detail
but
they're
providing
exceptional
public
safety
service
to
the
residents
of
boston
on
that
detail,
and
I
think
they,
those
detail,
offices
play
a
critical
role,
not
only
protecting
the
neighborhood,
maybe
on
a
construction
site,
but
also
being
vigilant
about
their
surroundings
as
well.
So
I
would
like
to
learn
a
little
bit
about
some
of
the
arrests
that
have
taken
place
from
by
detail
offices.
I
think
it's
an
important
part
of
the
discussion,
and-
and
again
I
just
want
to
thank
you-
councillor,
bark
and
I'm
here-
to
learn.
D
I'm
here
to
listen
and
just
want
to
highlight
the
that
out.
The
police
officers
are
our
neighbors
they're.
Our
little
league
coaches,
they're
active
in
our
community
they're
concerned
parents,
but
they
also
helped
built
this
city
built
our
country.
D
A
Thank
you,
councillor
flynn,
councillor
baker.
E
Thank
you,
madam
chair.
I
just
would
like
some
kind
of
clarification,
we're
talking
about
we're
looking
to
regard
police
contracts
as
policy
documents.
Does
that
mean
that
we
want
the
city
negotiators
to
take
these
principles
of
discussion
as
part
of
their
main
negotiating
points?
I'm
not
I'm
I'm
actually
kind
of
not
clear
on
how
you're
moving
this
or
because,
at
the
end
of
the
day
you
know
it's
it.
E
The
union
doesn't
if
it's
we're
looking
to
do
changes
in
the
contract,
they
just
say
no
to
this
all
day
long
and
it
goes
to
an
arbitrator.
I
know
you're
looking
to
try
and
take
take
away
the
arbitrators
rights
within
this.
This
whole
policy
document.
I
just
want
some
clarification
on
that
if
you
can
break
it
down
for
me,
madam
chair.
A
Sure
so
a
couple
of
things,
so
you
know
part
of
part
of
contract
negotiations,
as
folks
know.
Right
is
that
the
the
administration
brings
proposals
and
the
union
brings
proposals,
and
then
they
go
back
and
forth,
and
I
think
that
it's
always
true
that
the
administration
management
side
proposals-
or
I
should
say
often
true-
that
you
know
they
have
to
do
with
policy
interests
right.
A
So,
like
things
like
you
know,
adding
transparency
with
the
wearing
of
body,
cameras
right
or
or
things
like
you
know,
the
whole
way
that
shifts
are
structured
allows.
You
know,
will
allow
management
to
do
certain
things
with
the
way
that
it
polices.
A
So
I
think
we
should
be
honest
about
the
fact
that
there's
always
policy
implications
in
these
conversations
that
happen
at
the
bargaining
table
right,
and
so
the
hope
is
to
by
the
council
setting
expectations
around
these
issues,
whether
it's
kind
of
you
know,
accountability
for
use
of
force
and
the
way
that
our
contract
works
in
those
cases,
whether
it's
things
like
you
know,
keeping
in
mind
the
pay
parity
with
civilian
departments
when
they're
when
they're
negotiating
what
increases
are,
there's
a
host
of
things
right
that
that
well
we're
not
in
the
room.
A
A
Now,
to
your
point
about
about
saying
no
and
going
to
arbitration,
I
think
it's
important
to
note
and
I'll
I'll
break
this
down
too
for
folks.
So
in
massachusetts,
if
a
police
or
fire
contract
negotiation
reaches
impasse
right,
so
the
parties
just
don't
agree,
which
is
what
councilor
baker's
saying
you
know.
Okay,
we
put
a
bunch
of
reform
things
on
the
table.
The
parties
don't
agree.
A
It
goes
to
the
joint
labor
management
committee
jlmc,
which
is
a
special
arbitrating
board
just
for
these
public
safety
contracts,
and
then
the
jlmc
looks
at
what
you
know
management's
asking
for
and
what
the
union's
asking
for,
and
it
makes
some
determination
and
and
that
could
be
on
on
all
kinds
of
fronts
right
and
then
and
then
what
whatever
the
jlmc
determines
would
come
to
us
at
the
council.
A
But
the
thing
about
that
is
that
the
council
is
still
always
the
final
say
and
and
if
the
council
votes
it
down,
it
has
to
go
back
to
the
bargaining
table
in
2016.
There
was
an
agreement,
not
an
agreement.
A
There
was
a
result
of
one
of
these
jlmc
panels
that
that
resulted
in
very
in
very
significant
retroactive
pay
increases
and
a
number
of
other
things,
and
it
came
to
the
council
and
the
council
was
very
concerned
about
the
fiscal
responsibility
of
approving
that
contract,
because
the
share
of
the
budget
that
it
was
taking
was
going
to
crowd
out
some
other
things,
and
so
this
council,
actually
at
that
point,
unanimously
signed
a
letter.
Saying:
okay,
we're
going
to
approve
this
one,
but
it
can't
go
on
like
this.
A
We
can't
have
you
know:
we've
had
a
couple
of
decades
of
the
of
the
pay
increments
for
our
our
city,
workers,
who
are
civilians
and
our
city
workers,
who
are
sworn
really
diverge
from
each
other,
and
you
know
I
don't
think
it's
fair
and
I
think
the
council
really
expressed
itself
at
that
time
saying
you
know
we
can't
we
can't.
We
can't
take
awards
like
this,
that
are
sort
of
done
in
isolation
and
don't
consider
the
overall
context
of
the
city.
A
So,
as
far
as
I'm
concerned,
I
was
not
here
on
the
council
at
the
time
that
letter
was
signed.
A
number
of
colleagues
were,
but
I
feel
like
as
a
body
we
committed
ourselves
in
that
letter
and
we
put
everyone
on
notice
both
on
the
administration
side
and
on
the
union
side
that
hey.
We
really
expect
these
principles
of
fiscal
responsibility
and
accountability
to
be
baked
into
the
negotiation
up
front
next
time
and
we're
not
gonna
we're
not
gonna,
be
lucy
in
the
football
with
this
one
right,
and
so
I
guess
my
view.
A
Counselor
baker
is
that
you
know
folks
might
dig
their
heels
in
and
say
we're
just
gonna
go
to
the
jlmc
and
think
we
can
get
what
we
want,
but
I
think
it's
important
for
this
council
to
be
broadcasting
consistently
and
consistently
with
the
message
of
that
letter
that,
like
we,
expect
people
to
bargain
in
good
faith,
including
around
reform
policy
measures,
and
that
the
council
isn't
isn't
going
to
just
kind
of
take,
what's
sent
our
way
if
it
doesn't
reflect
that
kind
of
conversation.
So
that's
that's,
certainly
where
I'm
coming
from.
E
A
E
Well,
I
have
this
thought,
please
that's
all
well
and
good
when
we're
dealing
with
finances
and
strictly
budgetary
items
here
I
mean
we're
talking
something
that
quite
frankly,
scares
the
death
out
of
me
is
is
under
principles
of
discussion.
This
is
civilian
work
number
three,
so
we
want
to
have
civilians
responding
to
9-1-1
calls.
E
I
mean
that
all
sounds
great
until
someone
gets
murdered
in
a
traffic
stop
or
someone
gets
murdered
going
into
a
domestic
like,
let's
be
realistic
about
this,
and
and
if
that
goes
to
the
table,
we're
talking
about
five
years,
we're
negotiating
with
police,
and
you
want
to
talk
about
an
award
at
the
end
of
that
five
years
when
we
haven't
been
paying
people
we're
talking
in
the
tens
of
millions.
So
I
just
think
that
this
is.
We
should
tread
lightly
on
this
here.
E
Maybe
maybe
one
piece
here
two
pieces
here,
but
but
going
after
all
this
as
a
policy
document,
we
we
will
absolutely
be
bogged
down
in
negotiation,
so
I
think
we
have
to
be
realistic
about
what
it
is
where
we're
looking
for.
I
I'm
with
you
on
the
finances.
I'm
with
you
on.
You
know
people
making
300
grand,
you
know
how
much
how
much
they
do.
They
have
to
work
to
make
that
that
much
money.
E
I
understand
those
things,
but
then
we're
going
at
a
lot
of
other
pieces
here
which,
quite
frankly,
I'm
not
sure
we
we,
I
think
we're
going
to
bog
the
process
down,
so
it
gets
beyond
the
point
we're
ever
ever
able
to
complete
a
negotiating
contract
ever
again.
So
those
are
my
points
and
you
can
go
on
with
what
you,
whoever
else
wants
to
speak
more
points
than
anything
else.
A
No,
I
I
appreciate
that
counselor
baker,
and
actually
I
mean
one
of
the
reasons
why
I
wanna
have
this
conversation
is
precisely
because
this
document
is
really.
A
It
was
really
aimed
to
sum
up
a
whole
bunch
of
the
things
that
came
up
in
our
conversations
about
this
right,
like
where
are
the
key
pieces
where
people
want
to
make
policy
change
and
the
contract
is
implicated,
and
so
I
think
it's
honestly
helpful
to
hear
which
pieces
different
counselors
feel
like
are
kind
of
like
should
be
at
the
center
of
the
table
and
which
are
maybe
separate
efforts.
A
But,
but
I
think
it's
important
to
be
to
be
honest
about
the
fact
that,
for
instance
like
like
there's
two
different
questions,
there's
there's
the
point
you're
making
of
whether
we
think
civilian
response
to
certain
categories
of
9-1-1
calls
makes
sense.
And
you-
and
I
might
disagree
about
that-
there's
a
separate
thing
where,
even
if
we
agreed
it
was
a
good
idea.
E
And
just
just
for
a
little
bit
of
background,
I
was
a
lead
negotiator
for
my
department
for
10
years,
so
I
I've
I've
negotiated
with
the
city.
I
I've
been
in
the
middle
of
slow
moving
contract
negotiations
and
it
was
far
less
than
this.
I
mean
three
words
you're
stuck
on
for
for
three
months.
I
just
think
we
have
to
be
realistic.
B
B
But
one
thing
I
wanted
to
lift
up
to
counselor
baker's
point
when
commissioner
evans
was
still
commissioner,
and
we
were
having
conversations
around
body
cameras
and
implementing
body
cameras
held
a
host
of
of
meetings
in
community,
around
implementation
of
body
cameras
and
one
of
the
points
of
frustration
from
the
department
and
folks
who
participated
in
those
meetings,
and
it
was
folks
from
the
department
advocates,
of
course,
have
been
pushing
this
for
years.
B
Other
counselors
was
how
do
we
get
all
that
was
discussed
in
those
meetings
into
the
negotiation
process,
and
one
way
was
sending
a
letter
to
commissioner
evans
that
he
could
bring
into
the
negotiations
as
a
way
to
lift
up
some
of
the
residents
ideas
on
what
the
the
policy
governing
body
cameras
could
look
like
and
folks
agreed.
It
was
a
successful
exercise,
so
I
just
wanted
to
lift
up
that
specific
example
as
something
that
was
positive.
That
was
able
to
be
incorporated
in
that
negotiation
process,
and
hopefully
this
will.
B
A
F
Yeah.
Thank
you.
Thank
you
to
the
chair
for
calling
this
working
session.
There
are
a
lot
of
different
angles
that
we
can
view
this
conversation
from
as
the
chair
of
committee
on
workforce
development.
It's
important
to
acknowledge
workers
rights,
particularly
around
the
construction
detail.
We
have
an
opportunity
to
reimagine
how
our
civilian
workforce
is
utilized.
F
We
also
see
this
as
a
fundamental
civil
rights
issue.
We
need
to
see
changes
in
our
public
safety
infrastructure
overall
to
ensure
that
everyone
in
our
city
is
able
to
feel
safe
and
to
thrive,
and
I
think
that
there's
a
lot
here
to
to
unpack
tonight-
and
I
think
I'm
and
I'm
not
sure
if,
because
I
I
was
late
to
the
party-
but
it
seems
like
counselor
baker-
already
asked
some
questions.
F
So
could
I
ask
I
mean,
like
I
don't
want
to
like,
speak
out
a
term,
but
I
I
am
curious
to
know
you
know.
I
think
it's
a
good
idea
to
move
away
from
thinking
of
overtime
as
a
as
a
routine
aspect
of
police
work,
and
I'm
wondering
if
it's
just
it's
just
saying
that
over
time
should
be
for
unpredictable
aspects.
Right
of
police
work
and
we're
leaving
too
much
wiggle
room.
F
I
think
that
will
send
into
overtime
abuse,
which
is
what
we're
already
seeing,
and
so
I'm
just
wondering
how
we
could
be
more.
How
can
we
more
specifically
define
unpredictable
aspects
of
police
work?
F
I
think
that
that
would
be
great
to
get
some
clarity
around
that,
and
I
do
have
some
questions
surrounding
the
language
of
the
memo,
so
we
can
unpack
it
a
little
bit
further
and
you
know
I
don't
want
to
go
too
much
into
the
weeds
here,
but
there
are
some
things
in
in
the
memo
that
the
council
has
taken
action
on
previously
counselor
edwards
wu
and
myself
filed
an
ordinance
around
the
alternative
to
9-1-1
response
system.
F
So
just
I'm
just
kind
of
curious
about
how
all
of
these
things
can
how
all
these
things
are
interacting.
But
I
think
that
you
just
asked
us
for
opening
remarks.
I'm
gonna
pump
my
breaks
and
allow
you
to
go
with
the
process
because
I
don't
want
to
have
you
answer
all
these
questions,
so
I'm
just
gonna.
A
Thanks
councilman,
I
mean
it's
fine
to
put
those
questions
out
on
the
table
now.
I
definitely
we're
trying
to
have
a
working
session
so,
but
we
can
I'll
run
through
everybody
and
then
we
can
come
back
to
more
of
them.
I
think
the
thing
I
would
say
about
that
last
point
you
raised
the
911
response
is
exactly
the
point
of
this
is
to
say
what
are
the
policy
actions
that
the
council
would
like
to
take
that
might
require
some
change
in
the
contract
to
be
effective.
A
So
it's
designed
the
two
pieces
are
designed
to
go
together.
It's
not
duplicative!
It's
like
complementary,
so
so,
for
instance,
to
make
sure
that
we
can
have.
I
mean
this
just
came
up
with
counselor
baker
right
but
like
to,
if
you
want
to
have
an
unarmed
civilian
response
to
some
911
calls
well,
currently
the
whole
way
that
we
run
dispatch
is
laid
out
in
our
police
contract.
A
So
if
you
want
part
of
dispatch
to
send
calls
somewhere
else
and
not
send
them
to
police
officers,
you
honestly,
you
may
need
to
negotiate
that
like
for
it
to
be
effective.
So
that's
something
where
we
could
pass
an
ordinance,
but
if
it's
not
negotiated
in
the
contract,
it's
not
actually
having
a
grip.
A
You
know
that's
and-
and
we've
we've
seen
that
you
know
we
need
to
talk
at
the
table
about
things
like
universal
body
cameras
and
having
them
on
in
overtime
right
so
and
and
when,
when
we've
talked
about
the
idea
of
civilianizing
some
of
the
details,
that's
something
that,
because
of
the
way
the
details
system
is
described
in
the
contract
probably
also
needs
addressing
there.
So
so
that's
the
idea.
It's
not
that
it's
not
that
this
is
another
way
of
doing.
A
Those
things
is
that
this
is
a
necessary
piece
of
doing
some
of
those
things
and
I
think
often
it's
yeah,
like
I
said
it's
kind
of
the
iceberg.
Under
the
surface,
like
it's
hard
for
people
to
see
the
way
the
contract
is
going
to
constrain
us
in
some
of
these
policy
moves.
So
that's
the
idea,
thank
you,
but
I
will
circle
back
for
more
specific
questions,
because
we
definitely
want
to
get
them
out.
A
I
think
next
up
is
counselor
braden,
then
counselor,
asabi,
george
and
then
we've
been
joined
by
councillor
edwards
who's.
Also
a
co-sponsor
of
this
all
right,
counselor
braden.
Thank
you,
madam.
G
Chair,
I
I
I'm,
you
know
reviewing
the
the
memo
once
again
and
you
know,
I
think
one
of
the
issues
that
I
raised
the
other
day
was
the
issue
around.
You
know.
If
long-term
sick
leave,
people
are
out
on
injured
duty
list
for
a
long
long
time
in,
in
terms
of
actually
having
a
having
a
predictable
structure
that
that
folks
know
what
the
procedures
are
and
the
timeline
and
and
what?
What?
G
What
triggers
an
action
in
terms
of
reviewing
someone's
ability
to
do
the
job-
and
I
know
this
is
very
much
in
ingrained
in
the
whole
in
the
whole
contract
negotiations.
G
I
don't
want
in
any
way
to
take
away
the
fact
that,
if
a
service,
an
officer
has
served
for
a
very
long
time
that
they
they
deserve
a
proper
procedure
and
proper
consideration
of
you
know
if
they,
if
they're
at
the
stage
when
they
need
to
be
reassigned
to
different
duties
within
the
force
or
if
they
would
be
considered
for
retire
retirement.
I
think
you
know.
G
The
other
question
that
came
up
from
our
discussions
within
my
team,
were
you
know,
looking
from
a
labor
relations
perspective,
wondering
about
using
an
interest-based
listening
bargaining
approach
rather
than
a
proposal
encounter
proposal
to
negotiations,
so
that
that
you
could
maybe
come
to
common
ground
rather
than
sort
of
embedding
war
back
and
forward
with.
G
I
love
you,
I
you
know
a
tough
country
proposal
negotiate
negotiation,
whether
more
of
a
an
interest-based
listening
bargaining
approach
would
would
would
be
a
different
way
to
go
at
this,
and
those
are
really
the
two
comments
that
I
had
and
I
look
forward
to
learning
more
there's
a
lot
of
material
here
and
they
really
look
forward
to
the
conversation
and
and
really
digging
in
on
this
in
this
working
session.
Thank
you.
H
Thank
you,
madam
chair,
and
I
came
in
a
few
minutes
late,
so
I
hope
that
some
of
my
questions
or
my
you
know
just
earlier
initial
comments
about
the
document,
isn't
repetitive,
but
you
know
one
of
the
one
of
the
sort
of
the
concerns
or
the
lenses
in
which
we're
looking
at
this,
and
it's
it's
through
your
principles
is
that
financial
responsibility
piece.
H
So
I
wonder
you
know,
where
are
the
opportunities
for
true
cost
savings,
because,
as
we
know,
and
as
we
discussed
in
last
week's
hearing
regarding
overtime
is
when
we
add
additional
personnel,
there
is
an
added
cost
and
we
think
about
you-
know
health,
insurance
and
other
benefits.
So
you
know
identifying.
H
Where
sort
of
that
that
that
sweet
spot
is,
I
think,
is
really
important
to
understand
and
making
sure
that
we
are
at
a
an
appropriately
sized
force
that
we
are
doing
an
appropriate
level
of
hiring
to
get
to
that
sort
of
critical
mass
and
then
also
you
know,
we
think
about
the
injury
list.
Really.
It
seems
that
we've
spent
some
time
discussing
that
and
there's
some
room
to
improve
that.
That
number-
and
you
know
that-
will
certainly
help
to
right-size
the
the
sworn
sworn
personnel.
H
The
other
thing
you
know
a
question
of
mine
or
a
point
of
concern
or
interest.
I
suppose
I
should
say
is
the
on
the
civilian
flaggers.
H
You
know
the
the
consideration
around
the
state
law
for
the
hourly
rate
and
the
wage,
and
whether
or
not
there
are
any
savings
there
that
came
up
last
week
as
well
and
then.
Lastly,
for
me,
at
least
right
now
is
some
of
the
administrative
roles,
and
I
think
that
there's
you
know
sort
of
general
consensus
that
there's
a
desire
to
make
sure
that
civilians
are
doing
a
lot
of
those
administrative
roles.
H
But
those
administrative
roles
are
also
places
where
police
officers
who
are
on
light
duty,
find
themselves,
and
I
would
say
you
know
I
worry
about
it-
maybe
disproportionately
impacting
female
police
officers
who
are
either
coming
back
from
a
maternity
leave
or
preparing
for
a
maternity
leave.
Who
may
be
on
light
duty
and
curious
about
the
the
unintended
consequences
of
some
of
that
shift
on
the
female
workforce
within
bpd.
So
those
would
be
my
initial
thoughts
about
you
know
what
we're
looking
at
today
and
you
know
looking
forward
to
the
rest
of
today's
conversation.
A
A
Great,
thank
you
so
much
counselor
sabe
george,
oh,
I
was
going
to
say
something,
but
I
forgot
so
counselor
edwards.
I
I'm
excited
about
this
conversation,
and
I
think
it's
really
just
kudos
to
the
body
in
general
that
we
have
decided
that
this
is
something
that
we're
going
to
stick
with
and
probably
have
perpetually
conversations
about
this
for
those
who
are
watching.
I
hope
you
understand.
This
is
actual
police
reform.
We
are
doing
it
well
we're
looking
at
the
contracts
and
we're
looking
at
all
aspects
of
how
to
reform
and
look
at
policing.
I
This
is
this
is
part
of
that
conversation,
so
I'm
I'm
just
want
to
say
thank
you
to
all
my
colleagues
for
being
on
here.
Thank
you
in
general
for
being
committed
to
this.
It
is
it
is
it's
it's
incumbent
upon
us
to
look
at
this
through
this
lens,
because
without
looking
at
the
contract,
all
of
the
ordinances,
as
counselor
bach
mentioned
everything
that
she
talked
about
all
the
good
ideas,
all
the
all
the
moments
will
be
for
naught
because
we're
gonna
come
slamming
up
against
basic
contract
law.
I
You
know
if
the
city
signs
a
contract
that
does
x,
the
city
will
have
to
commit
to
those
things
so
how
we
perform
those
contracts
and
again
putting
it
on
many
of
the
folks
who
are
in
bpd
is
also
incumbent.
They
need
to
be
partners
in
this.
We're
hoping
that
that
the
point
of
the
open
conversation
is
that
you
are.
They
are
part
of
also
doing
a
lot
of
the
forms
that
they
want
and
know
are
necessary.
So
this
is
not
anti.
I
This
is
actually
very
pro,
creating
a
modern,
efficient,
fiscally
responsible
police
force
for
the
city
of
boston.
So
that's
all
I'll
say
for
now
is
my
opening
remarks
and
if
we're
gonna
go
through
a
bunch
of
questions,
I
can
do
that
in
the
second
round,
but
I
just
wanted
to
make
sure
people
understood.
This
is
what
reform
looks
like
it's
not
sexy.
It's
not
necessarily
on
twitter,
it's
not
necessarily
through
hashtags.
It's
actually
through
these
long
conversations
that
look
at
contracts
and
numbers
and
pull
out
the
calculators
and
really
look
and
help
design.
A
Great,
thank
you
so
much
counselor
edwards
yeah.
I
think
probably
what
what
makes
what
makes
the
most
sense
now
might
be
to
kind
of
run
through
each
of
the
kind
of
big
picture
topic
areas,
and
then,
when
folks
have
further
comments
and
questions
about
that,
we
can
kind
of
go
to
them.
I
can
take
people's
hands
and
such
just
so
that
we
have
a
joined
up
conversation
so
so
the
first.
The
first
thing
is
this
expectation
around
reaching
pay
terms
that
are
in
parity
with
the
civilian
workforce.
A
So
I
talked
a
bit
about
this
sorry.
A
I
should
have
said
it
was
a
2013
jlmc
decision,
but
it
it
ran
for
six
years
through
2016
that
really
it
ended
up
giving
our
police
a
25
raise
over
six
years,
while
our
civilian
workforce
only
saw
a
12
raise
and
because
of
those
the
way,
those
things
compound,
we
were
seeing
this
divergence,
and
so,
and
so
the
council,
like
I
said,
did
write
a
unanimous
letter
in
2016,
saying
that
it
couldn't
approve
further
arbitration
awards
that
exacerbate
that
dynamic,
and
you
know.
A
I
think
that
when
we
think
about
that
issue
we
par
it's.
It's
partly
the
literal
pay
numbers,
but
it's
also
the
fact
that
there's
a
bunch
of
categories
so
there's
hazard,
pay,
there's
overtime
which,
as
councilor
mejia
mentioned,
was
being
treated
as
is
sort
of
functionally
a
routine
measure
in
our
police
department
and
and
as
we've
recently,
you
know
been
reminded
again
can
run
over
because
of
the
corporation's
council
interpretation
of
a
1982
law.
That
says,
you
know
well
as
long
as
sort
of
the
police
department.
A
Okay,
is
it
it
kind
of
counts
as
this
emergency
spending
and
and
so
because
overtime
is,
of
course,
based
on
base
pay.
A
When
you
have
those
differentials,
they
then
get
magnified
and-
and
you
know,
and
on
the
second
injury
front,
I
I
just
really
want
to
underscore
for
for
folks
at
home
and
also
for
colleagues,
because
I
think,
like
we're
talking
about
the
second
injured
piece,
but
we're
we're,
maybe
not
fully
wrapping
our
arms
around
it
like
like
the
sick
and
injured
numbers,
have
gone
up,
71
percent
in
the
last
two
years
they
were
flat
and
they've
almost
doubled
and
that's
pre-coveted,
and
no
one
from
the
department
has
been
able
to
explain
to
us.
A
Probably
the
entire
overrun
that
we're
talking
about
from
our
budget
this
year
is
based
on
this
extraordinary
replacement
cost
and
if
we
go
back
to
normal
police
procedures-
and
we
continue
to
have
that
balloon
next
year,
our
police
overtime
budget,
without
something
changing,
is
going
to
go
to
80
more,
like
80
million
more,
I
don't
know
but
like
so
you
know.
I
think,
that's
why
it's
important
to
stress
thinking
about
when,
like
when
the
department
says.
A
Well,
we
don't
know
how
long
it
will
take
to
bring
that
list
down
and
whatever
thinking
about
what
are
the
contract
procedures
that
are
that
are
causing
us
to
be
hung
up
for
multiple
years
on
that
list,
because
it's
a
totally
fiscally
unsustainable
thing
and
yeah.
So
I
just
wanted
to
underscore
a
couple
of
points
on
that.
I
think
just
staying
for
a
minute
in
this
space
of
the
the
fiscal
controls
piece
were
there
other
things
that
people
wanted
to
raise
comments
or
questions
about.
A
A
No
to
topic
one
being
around
the
whole
fiscal
responsibility
kind
of
space,
so
the
four
topics
are
fiscal
responsibility
and
fairness.
Falsity
workers,
then
like
accountability
for
use
of
force,
then
civilianization,
and
then
I
think
we
had
a
transparency
one
that
was
just
buckets.
I
was
trying
to
organize
things
into,
but.
I
Well,
I
I
I
noticed
that
cam
coker's
on
and
I
was
curious
honestly
what
the
research
municipal
bureau
finds
to
be
a
fiscally
responsible
budget
or
bpd.
Have
they
defined
it?
Have
they
looked
at?
It
is
the
current
trends
that
you
have
just
mentioned,
of
increasing
over
and
over
per
year.
Is
that
physically
responsible
do
they
have
any
opinion
about
that.
A
Yeah,
I
definitely
pam's
on
the
line
and
all
pam
if
you're
ready,
I'd
love
to
take
your
testimony
in
a
second.
Are
you
are
you
prepared?
I
know
I
said
I
go
to
you
more
towards
the
end.
A
All
right,
I
might
just
give
pam
a
minute.
I
see
that
counselor
flynn
has
his
hand
up.
D
I
know
the
overtime
budget
is
certainly
something
we're
we're
focused
on,
but
is
the
is
the
subject
of
the
city
council
and
the
mayor's
office,
hiring
consistently
hiring
police
or
new
police
officers
putting
on
a
new
class
consistently
every
year
factored
in.
Are
we
factoring
in
the
the
late,
the
the
retirements,
I
should
say,
of
police
officers
that
take
place
every
year,
but
we
don't.
We
don't
keep
up
with
that
in
terms
of
the
number
of
police
officers
that
we
hire.
D
D
As
I
said
before,
we
need
to
hire
more
additional
police
officers.
We
don't
have
enough
police
officers
in
the
city
of
boston.
We
have
police
officers
that
are
retire
retiring
every
week
and
we're
not
substituting
them
in
with
with
with
new
classes.
D
So
my
question
is:
are
we
going
to
be
proactive
in
determining
how
many
police
officers
we
need?
Every
year
due
to
ongoing
retirements
and
if
so,
what
is
what
is
that
number?
How
much
would
it
will
it
cost,
but
also
we
need
to
be
prepared
that
we
need
to
put
on
several
hundred
police
officers
each
year
factoring
in
retirements,
just
wanted
to
see
what
your
thoughts
might
be
or
the
thoughts
of
my
colleagues
as
well.
Thank
you,
council
park.
A
A
The
you
know,
expediting
retirement
and
such
right,
you'd
have
to
you
could
model
it
out.
People
do
that.
All
the
time
like
you
could
figure
out
what
the
what
the
net
cost
to
us
is,
and
it
might
be
that
as
a
long-term
strategy,
it
could
work.
I
don't
know
the
fiscal
answer,
but
I
think
it's
fair
to
raise
that
today.
So
thank
you
and
I'll
see.
If
other
counselors
have
comments
on
that
counselor
isabe
george,
I
do.
H
Have
one
you
know,
I
know:
we've
spent
a
lot
of
time,
thinking
about
the
financial
impact
of
the
almost
300
police
officers
out
injured,
and
I
know
that
you
know
we've
discussed
that
it's
not
necessarily
directly
related
to
cobit.
We
think
about
some
of
the
covid
related
stuff.
But
I
do
know
the
process
of
returning
to
work
requires
certain
medical
clearances
and
processes,
and
that
has
been
delayed
because
of
covet
access
to
medical
professionals.
H
So
I
wonder
if,
if
we
could
ever
correlate
some
of
the
injuries
that
went
out
pre-covered
were
further
delayed
because
of
covid.
The
other
consideration
I
would
say,
is
you
know:
we've
got
a
number
of
police
officers
who
are
attempting
to
retire
that
have
significant
injuries,
but
because
of
kovid
there's
been
or
partially
because
of
covet,
and
then
the
state
retire.
The
state
review
system,
the
medical
review
system
that
takes
a
long
time
to
process.
H
So
I
wonder
if
that
plays
a
role
in
it
and
then
I'd
also
be
curious
in
any
analysis
around
the
age
of
the
workforce,
and
you
know
we
do
have
a
growing
number
of
females
who
are
officers
and
is
there
any
correlation
to
out
out
injured
or
out
sick,
as
it
relates
to
maternity
leave.
H
For
example,
you
know,
I
think,
that
those
are
very
interesting
dynamics
to
to
look
at
and
to
better
understand-
and
you
know-
and
maybe
pam
could
speak
to
this-
I'm
not
sure
if
it's
part
of
her
analysis
at
all,
but
that
you
know
the
the
medical
piece
and
getting
people
back
to
work
is
one
that
I
know
is
a
pinch
point
in
the
process
as
well,
and
I
think
kovid
has
certainly
exacerbated
that.
A
Great,
thank
you.
Counselor
sabe
george
and
yes,
I
see
pam
is
with
us,
so
I'm
gonna,
I'm
gonna.
Let
since
we're
on
the
the
overarching
topic
of
fiscal
responsibility,
I
I'm
gonna.
Let
the
boston
municipal
research
bureau
weigh
in.
J
Thank
you
good
afternoon.
My
name
is
pam
coker,
I'm
the
president
of
the
boston
municipal
research
bureau,
I'm
also
a
city
resident,
and
thank
you
for
the
opportunity
to
participate
in
this
working
session.
As
you
know,
the
organization
is
very
much
focused
on
sounds
sound
city
finances
and
policy,
so
the
boston
has
the
resources
to
do
what
it
needs
to
do
and
wants
to
do
now
and
in
the
future,
for
all
who
live,
work
and
learn
in
our
city.
J
Certainly,
council,
review
and
approval
or
reduction
of
collective
bargaining
agreements
for
arbitration
decisions
is
key
to
the
city's
fiscal
well-being
and
the
well-being
of
its
residents,
and,
in
particular,
as
we're
going
to
talk
about
the
we're
starting
to
talk
about
the
expensive
contracts
and
concerns
there.
J
We
did
testify
back
in
september
a
on
some
of
these
same
issues
with
some
real
concern
about
the
escalation
of
arbitration
awards
when
that
process
was
used
to
settle
a
contract
and
that
the
costs
were
perhaps
getting
somewhat
out
of
control
when
it
comes
to,
in
particular,
public
safety
contracts
and,
for
example,
we've
seen
some
situations
for
such
as
the
increase
in
costs
particular
to
boston,
police
department.
J
Payroll
payroll
has
increased
43
percent
or
over
125
million
dollars
between
2011
and
2019
and
again
I'm
using
the
that
time
frame
with
the
2019,
because
this
was
testimony
from
the
fall
of
2020
so
dramatically.
Exceeding
personnel
costs
in
all
other
departments
and
one
of
the
things
we're.
What
we
have
continued
to
be
focused
on
when
we
look
at
the
contracts
is
the
contract
provisions
that
drive
increases
and
whether
they're
agreed
on
at
the
bargaining
table
or
if
they
end
up
at
the
state
level.
J
Joint
labor
management
committee,
and
that
is
a
place
where
we
see
have
seen
a
history
of
arbitration
awards
going
very
much
in
favor
of
the
uni
police
unions,
public
safety
unions.
I
should
say
so.
Some
of
this
is
is
concerned
about
cost,
and
some
of
it
is
the
mechanisms
that
are
applied
to
end
a
negotiation
process
that
has
not
been
successfully
completed
in
any
other
way.
J
J
Another
thing
that
we
always
look
for
in
contracts
is
the
so-called
hidden
costs
additions
to
pay
for
this
purpose
or
that
purpose
for
using
this
piece
of
equipment
or
wearing
this
type
of
device.
These
days
it
could
certainly
seem
to
be
the
the
body
cameras,
so
those
additional
costs
that
come
with
additional
adjustments
to
how
policing
is
done
or
when
it's
done
or
by
whom
and
for
how
long,
and
so
those
issues
contribute
to
increased
costs
as
well
as,
in
some
cases,
have
an
impact
on
the
overtime
dynamic.
J
When
it
comes
to
looking
at
affordability,
I
mean
one
of
the
things
we
look
at
is
not
just
if
it's
a
multi-year
contract,
not
just
what
it
does
for
the
next
year,
but
what
it
does
for
the
years
after
that
and
the
accumulation
effect
of
raises
and
those
other
hidden
costs
that
I
had
mentioned.
J
Not
sure
if
this
information
is
in
any
way
helpful.
I'm
happy
to
take
any
particular
questions
that
might
help
focus
us
to
make
sure
I'm
getting
getting
to
something.
That's
useful
for
you
or
I'm
happy
to
take
a
question.
If
I
can't
answer
right
now,
bring
the
information
back
to
you
all.
A
Sorry,
I
was
muted
great,
thank
you
so
much
pam.
I
I
it
would
be
great
if
you
could
stick
around
a
little
bit
for
counselor
questions
and
conversation.
Let
me
I've
got
two
colleagues
with
hands
up,
so
I'm
gonna
go
to
them
and-
and
I
don't
know
if
they
have
a
question
for
you-
they
might
just
have
a
comment
on
this
topic,
but
then
I'll
also
see
if
there
are
any
colleagues
with
questions
for
you,
so
I
think
council
edwards
will
have
one
so
counselor
arroyo
and
then
counselor
mejia
counselor
arroyo.
C
Yeah,
thank
you.
I
had
my
hand
up
prior
to
pam's
presentation,
and
so
I
just
wanted
to
touch
on
the
concept
or
theory
that
we
have
to
be
hiring
hundreds
of
new
officers.
C
I
just
want
to
know
where
and
how
we're
making
these
sorts
of
analysis,
because
I
don't
know
what
we're
tying
that
to
are.
We
tying
that
to
the
crime
rate,
because
the
crime
rate
is
down,
it's
been
going
down.
Are
we
tying
that
to
the
population
size?
Because
I'm
not
sure
data
shows
that
a
higher
population
for
some
reason
leads
to
an
increased
need
for
policing
or
for
officers.
C
And
so
I
don't
have
any
of
those
numbers,
I
would
love
to
have
those
numbers
before
we
start
just
saying
that
we
need
hundreds
and
hundreds
of
new
officers
and
we're
not
really
tying
it
to
crime
data
or
a
rising
crime
or
a
rise
in
any
necessitated
need
or
any
understanding
of
what
the
borderline
staffing
is.
And
so
you
know
I
know
we
see.
Overtime
is
increasing
that.
C
I
just
don't
know
how
we
would
even
come
close
to
ballparking
what
that
would
be
or
what
analysis
we're
using
to
come
up
with
that
number
and
I'm
happy
to
hear
if
folks
know
what
we
should
be
tying
that
to
or
what
they
believe,
we
should
be
tying
that
to
or
traditionally
what
that's
been
tied
to,
but
I
don't
actually
know
what
we're
using
on
that,
because
I
know
that
the
crime
rate,
even
this
year,
has
gone
down
the
year
previous
to
this
has
gone
down.
C
We've
seen
an
increase
this
year
on
homicides,
but
everything
else
is
down.
Last
year
we
had
a
similar
successful
year.
I
believe
the
year
before
that
as
well.
The
population's
risen
for
all
of
those
years
we've
had
the
same
number
of
officers,
and
so
I
think
we
do
have
to
start
looking
at
sort
of
those
issues
and
then,
from
a
cost-saving
perspective.
I
really
appreciate
counselor
isabe
george
listing
up
that
there
might
be
a
gender
equity
disparity
when
we
talk
about
civilianization
of
those
roles.
C
I
think
that's
actually
really
important
something
we
have
to
look
at,
but
I
do
think
at
some
level
we
have
to
look
at
civilianizing
administrative
tasks
within
the
bpd
and
I
think
we
would
see
real
cost
savings
for
doing
that,
and
so
that's
I
just
wanted
to
add
those
things.
A
Great.
Thank
you
so
much
counselor
arroyo,
counselor
michael.
F
F
I
think
about
my
credit
card
right
and
if
I,
if
I
go
over
my
limit
on
my
debit,
the
bank
charges
me
35
or
so
so
I
try
really
hard
to
never
do
any
overdrafting
right,
and
so
I'm
just
curious,
counselor
bach,
as
you
continue
to
to
look
at
this
conversation,
what
measures
can
we
put
in
place
in
terms
of
accountability
perspective
so
that
if
you
do
go
over
time,
there
is
a
penalty
fee
that
comes
along
with
it?
F
I
know
that
that
keeps
me
and
my
accounting
right
in
check
when
I
know
that
I'm
going
to
get
a
35
overdraft
protection,
I
work
really
hard
at
making
sure
that
I
don't
bounce
any
of
my
checks,
and
so
I'm
just
curious
as
we're
having
this
conversation.
F
Well,
I
don't
know
if
anyone
could
answer
that,
but
I'm
just
curious
if
anyone
could
answer
it
as
you
the
ways
and
means
chairs.
No,
I'm
just
curious,
like
as
we
talk
about
these
documents.
As
you
know,
this
is
policy
documents
and
all
this
other
good
stuff.
You
know
we're
talking
about
overtime
and
I
just
feel
like
they
already
went
over.
We
already
had
this
discussion
last
year
and
they
already
went
over
the
budget
that
we
said
that
they
couldn't
go
over
and
now
here
we
are
talking
about.
How
do
we
prevent
this?
F
A
Yeah,
so
I
think
on
that
I
have
a
couple
of
thoughts.
One
is
certainly,
I
think
that
the
city
has
taken
a
fairly
open
interpretation
of
this
1982
law
that
sort
of
allows
them
to
run
over
on
an
emergency
basis
and
has
kind
of
used
it
to
mean
run
over.
However
much
the
department
decides,
and
I
think
I
think
that
an
administration
could
could
take
a
much
narrower
interpretation,
really
only
save
that
for
emergencies
and
and
assign
less
overtime.
A
I
think
it's
important
to
remember
right,
we're
always
going
to
pay
people
for
the
hours
that
they
work
right,
that's
a
basic
tenant.
We
all
believe
in
that.
So
it's
a
question
of
like
what
are
the
assignments
right
that
are
going
out
and
where
and
what's
the
and
hours
that
we're
allowing
people
to
claim
right.
But,
like
you
know,
once
people
do
the
work,
then
of
course
we're
paying
them
for
it.
A
So
so
I
think
you
know
there's
a
there's:
a
management
control
perspective
like
the
the
person
with
a
credit
card
at
some
point
in
your
in
your
analogy:
it's
the
police,
commissioner
and
the
command
staff
right.
It's
who
are
they
assigning
and
how
are
they
thinking
about
how
we
allocate
our
resources
and
to
counselor
arroyo's
point?
What
is
what
like?
We
have
a
very
hard
time
as
a
council,
we've
repeatedly
asked
for
minimum
staffing
standards
to
understand.
You
know
how
they're
allocating
those
resources
and
we
haven't
gotten
that
information.
A
I
think
that
you
know
demanding
that
information,
but
also,
ultimately,
I
think
the
check
is
holding
the
commissioner
and
the
command
staff
responsible
for
achieving
savings
and
and
making
our
and
figuring
out
how
to
do
good
policing
and
keep
our
city
safe
within
the
confines
of
the
public
safety
budget
that
we
can
responsibly
afford
right
and
then
the
penalty
on
that
side
is,
you
know,
is
that
that's
what
that's
how
your
job
performance
is
being
measured
on
at
some
point,
so
I
think
that's
like
a
those
are
accountability,
measures
that
aren't
about
changing
the
contract.
A
I
think
where
you
change
the
contract
is
certain
things
and
we've
all
talked
about
the
fact
that
court
overtime
you're
much
more
likely
for
us
to
be
paying
for
unworked
hours.
I
know
there's
been
some
interest
from
the
council.
I
think
councillor
campbell
and
roy
others
have
suggested.
You
know
that
that's
a
specific
provision
we
should
look
at
and
and
then
I
think
this
this
interpretation
of
just
running
over
could
be
could
be
looked
at
again.
So
those
are
some
thoughts
for
me,
but
I'd
welcome
other
people's
as
well.
A
I'm
gonna
go
to
counselor
edwards.
I
think
had
a
question
possibly
for
a
comment
or
a
question.
Maybe
for
pam
coker.
A
J
Sure
yeah
what
I
had
in
mind
to
to
share
initially
in
my
remarks
this
afternoon.
It's
just
to
recognize
the
work
of
that
was
done
in
this
memo
and
the
work
that
you've
all
done
to
date
on
these
issues.
J
It's
I'm
really
really
excited
to
see
this
conversation
that
you're,
giving
to
both
a
set
of
policy
principles
to
uphold
in
council
review
of
the
city's
upcoming
round
of
contracts
and
to
how
the
city
might
actually
operationalize
those
principles.
J
Fiscal
responsibility
and
fairness
to
all
city
workers,
on
civilization
of
civilian
work
and
increased
transparency
of
police
department
work
through
public
data
sharing.
I
just
think
this
is
such
an
opportunity
to
focus
the
conversation
and
discuss
specific
strategies
and
what
is
required
to
get
them
implemented
or
adjustments
before
me
before
implementing
them.
It
just
seems
like
this
effort
the
and
that
you
all
are
engaged
in
right.
J
Now
is
just
such
a
a
great
point
at
which
I
feel
like
this
conversation
is
really
starting
to
move
forward,
and
so
I'm
just
just
really
excited
about
the
work
that
you're
doing
now
and
the
potential
that
it
can
have
to
really
when
you
all
really
are
digging
into
this
to
have
it
have
a
real
impact
and
also
know
where
the
spots
are
that
it
may
be
difficult
to
make
an
impact
because
of
the
way
that
some
of
these
contracts
are
and
the
challenge
of
getting
some
of
them
changed,
but
just
really
excited
about
this
effort.
A
Great
well,
thank
you
so
much.
I
appreciate
appreciate
the
kind
words
like
there's
lots
of
work
to
do,
but
we're
trying
to
pull
all
the
threads
together
here
and
again
recognize
that
we
have
an
important
policy-making
role
and
that
there
are
important
policy
implications
here.
Counselor
braden,
I
see
you
get
your
hand
raised.
G
I
was
wondering
if,
if
pam
could
help
me
understand
some
more
about
the
hidden
costs
she
mentioned
a
few.
I
just
wondered:
what
proportion
of
the
pay
packet
that
an
officer
gets
is
is
tied
to
hidden
costs
that
you
don't
necessarily
that
are
in
additional
to
their
base,
pay.
J
That
is
a
really
good
question
and
I
don't
have
a
numerical
answer
for
you
for
that
right
now.
It
does
really
depend
on
the
the
officer
and
what
types
of
bonuses
or
support
that
they
are
eligible
for,
based
on,
in
some
cases,
additional
training,
or
you
know,
training
for
use
of
specific
weapons
or
training
in
terms
of
additional
schooling.
It
may
also
relate
to
certain
additions
around
education,
such
as
the
quinnville.
J
So
that's
something
that
we
try
to
look
for
when
we
go
into
a
contract
and
look
at
the
details
and
I'd
be
happy
to
send
you
a
list
of
some
of
the
kinds
of
things
that
we
tend
to
look
for
and
see
that
are
in
some,
in
some
cases,
contributing
significantly
to
the
overall
cost
of
funding.
The
officers.
G
And-
and
we
don't
get
a
good
insight
into
the
breakdown,
what
the
breakout
is
and
what
the
pay,
what
the
base
pay
looks
like,
which
meant
in
many
cases,
may
be
driving
the
need
for
officers
to
seek
extra
overtime
to
compensate.
So
I
really
look
forward
to
getting
a
better
handle
on
on
all
of
this.
Thank
you.
Terrific.
H
Thanks
again,
I'd
love,
if
pam,
if
you
would
share
that
with
everybody,
that'd
be
great
or
through
the
chair
and
she
can
share
with
all
of
us.
H
That
would
be
interesting
to
look
at
something
that
I
think
has
come
up
over
over
many
hearings
and
sort
of
over
the
years,
at
least
in
my
recollection,
around
potential
savings
and
looking
for
you
know,
sort
of
tightening
of
the
belt
a
little
bit
as
a
shift
in
how
we
do
the
shifts,
and
so
the
10
hour
shift
has
has
come
up
a
number
of
times,
I'm
not
sure
if,
madam
chair,
if
we've
looked
at
that
at
all,
to
understand
truly
what
the
impact
of
that
could
be
around
financial
savings.
H
I
see
pam
nodding
her
head,
so
I'm
curious.
If
that's,
you
know
how
how
that's
been
considered
and
how
that
might
impact
this
budget
or
or
any
budget.
J
I
don't,
I
don't
have
anything
for
you
immediately
on
this.
Unfortunately,
can
we
see
if
we've
got
something
that
could
be
more
useful
and
share
it
with
you.
H
Yeah,
oh
yeah.
I
know
that
would
be
very
helpful.
I
feel
that
we've
talked
about
it
in
past
hearings,
yeah
in
sessions
similar
to
this
as
a
cost-saving.
A
Yeah
yeah
no,
and
I
don't
think
I
don't
think
counselor
sabi
charged
to
your
point
that
we've
really,
I
think
it's
it's.
It's
been
a
suggestion
raised
a
number
of
times.
I
know
I
know
that
counselor
o'malley's
raised
it
as
well
yeah.
I
I
think
I
I
haven't
seen
like
actual
kind
of
cost
projection
of
what
it
like
what
it
could
save,
but
I
think
it
would
be
an
interesting
line
to
proceed
further,
so
yeah.
H
And
I
would
I
would
note
you
know,
I
know
the
quinn
bill
came
up.
You
know.
I
I
think,
having
an
educated
force
is
a
good
thing.
I
do
you
know
sort
of
wonder
about
you
know.
I
know
the
details
and
specifics
around
the
quinn
bill
and
that
it's
you
know
certain
schools
and
a
certain
degree,
but
just
in
general,
I
think
that
an
educated
workforce
is
a
is
a
better
workforce.
H
As
a
teacher,
I'm
required
to
have
a
master's
degree,
I'm
required
to
have
a
particular
field,
and
you
know
there's
additional
certification,
all
that,
but
my
understanding
is
post
masters
post.
Once
I
get
that
particular
piece
of
paper,
I
can
continue
my
education
in
any
field
and
those
credits
count
towards
you
know
lane
and
step
bumps,
and
you
know
so
because
I
think
there's
a
general
record
of
a
more
educated
force
as
a
more
productive
force
and
sort
of
a
you
know
more
in
tuned
force,
but
that's
it
I
mean
that's.
H
A
A
All
right,
awesome,
yeah,
so
so,
maybe
then
in
terms
of
sort
of
the
next
topic
area
and
it's
shorter
in
the
memo,
but
I
think
it's
pretty
important
accountability
for
use
of
force
and
abuse
of
power.
A
So
for
folks,
as
reference,
so
there's
an
article
in
the
contract
entitled
grievance
and
appeal,
which
is
the
mechanism
that
drives
almost
all
labor
management
disputes
in
the
police
department
to
binding
arbitration
and
our,
I
think,
arbitrators
have
overturned
about
three
quarters
of
bpd
discipline
and
nearly
a
third
of
firings
in
the
past
13
years.
I
think
it's
important
to
know.
It
hasn't
always
been
this
way:
the
1979
police
contract.
It
actually
exempted
decisions
regarding
suspension
and
discharge
from
binding
arbitration.
A
So
the
basic
idea
right
is
that
binding
arbitration.
Ultimately
something
goes
to
an
arbitrator.
They
make
a
call
and
it's
binding
right.
It
hints
in
the
name
and
then
you're-
that's
what
it
is,
and
I
think
that
you
know
older
versions
of
our
contract
and
I
spent
some
time
in
the
the
city
archives
related
to
this.
A
You
know
made
the
distinction
of
hey
at
a
moment
when,
if
you
get
to
a
point
where
the
you
know,
commissioner,
is
doing
serious
suspension
or
discharge,
that
should
maybe
be
a
kind
of
level
of
decision
that
doesn't
get
second
guessed
by
an
arbitrator,
and
so
it's
in
a
different
category,
but
by
the
o7
contract
that
had
that
distinction
had
been
had
disappeared
and
now,
although
in
theory,
there's
a
still
a
discipline
and
discharge
section
where
you
can
use
civil
service
like
functionally.
A
Basically
all
such
issues
run
through
grievance
and
appeal,
and
I
think
what's
what's
tough
about.
A
That
is
that
it's
meant
that
a
lot
of
the
department's,
most
well-known
sort
of
like
abusive
force
cases
over
the
last
few
decades
have
gone
to
binding
arbitration
and
gotten
overturned,
and
I
think
that
from
a
police
accountability
perspective,
that's
a
real
stumbling
block
for
us,
and
I
think
you
know
it's
something
that
I
think
I've
certainly
heard
from
lots
of
officers
that
when
you
have
somebody
who
really
you
know
who
really
you
know
mistreats
their
the
the
use
of
force
like
that,
that's
a
problem
for
all
the
other
officers,
and
that
you
know
that's
not
a
type
of
a
type
of
behavior
that
you
want
to
encourage
or
that
good
police
officers
want
to
see
happen.
A
But
the
reality
is
the
way
our
discipline,
the
way
our
contract
is
set
up.
It
can
really.
It
has
frustrated
multiple
police
commissioners
over
the
last
20
years,
in
being
able
to
actually
terminate
somebody
who
who
really
crosses
the
line
and-
and
my
particular
concern
about
this
in
the
moment-
and
I'm
glad
see
councillor
campbell
again
on
the
screen.
A
You
know
is
that
we,
as
everyone
knows
the
council,
has
just
partnered
with
the
mayor
to
pass
a
major
new
civilian
review
board
and,
and
that
has
the
possibility
of
having
some
real
accountability
around
use
of
force,
except
that
without
a
change
in
the
contract,
whatever
like
what
the
civilian
review
board
is
recommending,
has
the
potential
of
being
overturned
through
exactly
the
same
mechanism
as
what
the
police
commissioner
has
been
recommending.
So
people
might
think
a
civilian
review
board
is
going
to
do
a
better
job
than
a
police.
A
Commissioner
and
folks
can
go
back
and
forth
and
that's
a
whole
conversation.
But
even
regardless
of
that,
the
point
is
that
the
way
our
contract
is
currently
written,
whether
it
is
the
police,
commissioner
or
the
civilian
review
board,
recommending
that
someone
be
suspended
or
terminated.
Our
current
contract
makes
it
quite
possible
for
a
binding
arbitration
decision
to
overturn
that
and
I
think
that's
a
problem
in
terms
of
efficacy.
So
I
don't
know
if
other
folks
have
comments
on
on
that
front.
B
We
have
to
continue
the
conversation
on
the
contracting
side
to
be
able
to
ensure
that
that
body
and
those
individuals
that
ultimately
compose
the
civilian
review
board
in
the
ayat
is
that
they
are
given
all
the
power
that
we
can
give
them
in
order
to
actually
hold
the
department
accountable
if
something
goes
wrong,
be
independent
from
the
from
the
department
as
well,
and
so
I
fully
support
these
pieces
here
and
I'm
back.
I
apologize.
B
It
was
obviously
that
car
accident
outside
my
house,
thank
god
everyone's
okay,
but
thank
you
for
continuing
the
conversation,
but
I
agree
with
you.
This
part
is
just
as
important.
A
Glad
to
have
you
back
and
I'm
glad
everyone's
okay.
Do
we
have
other
other
counselor
comments
on
this?
The
sort
of
use
of
force,
accountability.
A
A
I
just
want
to
flag
in
their
july
presentation
to
us,
the
bpd
made
reference
to
a
long-term
goal
of
civilianizing
80
to
100
administration,
administrative
positions
currently
filled
by
sworn
officers,
and
you
know,
and
again
those
officers
are
paid
at
regular
and
hazard
pay
rates
that
are
commensurate
with
their
training
for
police
work
and
I
think
in
general
it
makes
sense,
given
you
know,
given
the
pay
differentials
that
are
there
because
of
the
training
that
our
sworn
officers
have,
it
makes
sense
to
have
them
doing.
A
Police
work,
and-
and
of
course
you
know,
80
to
100
is
a
lot
of
people
within
those
administrative
positions.
A
32
of
them
are
folks
who
are
involved
in
operating
a
highly
decentralized
detail
system
which
has
been
mentioned
for
reform
since
at
least
the
93
contract
and
which
actually
currently
costs
the
department
more
than
the
10
administrative
fee.
We
received
so
to
unpack
that
we
were
talking
earlier
about
the
fact
that
the
details,
in
theory,
don't
cost
the
city,
because
outside
forces
are
paying
for
them.
Councilor
arroyo
made
the
good
point
that
sometimes
it's
the
outside
entity
paying
for
them,
is
actually
one
of
our
public
city
agencies
like
btd
or
someone
doing
work.
A
The
other
wrinkle
in
the
detail
system
is
that
so
in
the
contract,
where
we
specify
all
of
these
administrative
positions
that
operate
the
detail
system
that
again
are
being
filled
by
sworn
officers
and
and
when
you
sort
of
add
that
whole
apparatus
up
and
when
I
say
decentralized,
what
I
mean
is
that,
instead
of
there
being
like
a
central
system,
that's
booking
the
details,
they're
sort
of
they're
getting
parceled
out
and
booked
through
all
the
different
district
offices
and
there's
a
whole
hierarchy
in
order
to
how
they
get
spread
around
and
so.
A
And
so
it's
not.
I
would
say
you
know
the
most
efficient
system
for
doing
that
and
it's
employing
32
folks
in
a
sort
of
desk
job
capacity,
and
when
you
add
that
all
up,
it's
more
than
the
bonus
that
the
city
gets
on
those
detail
hours
from
the
contractors,
you
have
to
pay
for
them.
So
I
think
net
we
are
actually
paying
for
the
detail
system,
but
I
think
you
know
so
there's
the
detail
piece.
There's
this
general
administrative
jobs
piece.
A
I
take
counselor
sabi
george's
point
and
it's
a
good
one
for
further
conversation.
The
question
of
sort
of
like
you
know
who
are
these
providing
a
good
outlet
for
folks
to
cycle
through
when
they're
on
light
duty?
You
know,
is
it
enabling
our
you
know
some
of
our
police
officers
who
might
have
been
out
on
maternity
leave
and
just
coming
back
or
something
I
think
digging
into
that?
A
More
makes
good
sense
and
then
the
other
two
bullets
on
civilianization
that
are
in
this
document
are
related
to
this
idea
of
opening
up
construction
detail
opportunities
to
local
civilian
workforces,
especially
you
know
the
construction
details
and
the
large
number.
As
we've
learned
of
unclaimed
construction
details,
we
had
about
26
000
that
were
unclaimed
in
the
sort
of
10
months
prior
last
november,
when
we
got
numbers
done
and
another
large
number
unclaimed
in
the
last
few
months.
A
So
so
you
know,
there's
an
we've
talked
about
the
fact
that
those
are
good
jobs
that
I
think
counselor
sabi
george
ray
is
the
so
basically
because
of
the
way
that
the
prevailing
wage
law
works
around
details,
civilians
would
be
paid
pretty
much
close
to
the
police
wage,
and
so
it
means
they'd
be
very
well
paying
jobs,
but
there
might
be
a
real
opportunity
to
get
a
bunch
of
you
know
local
boston,
folks
into
the
workforce
trained
in
osha
regs.
A
You
know,
I
think,
that's
something
that
we've
heard
a
lot
of
interest
from
in
the
community
and
that
we
could
probably
start
with
assigning
some
portion
of
the
ones
that
are
not
currently
claimed
by
the
police
department
to
a
force
like
that,
and
then
this
last
civilianization
point
was
the
point
that
we've
discussed
a
little
bit
already
about
the
911
alternative
response
and
the
fact
that
to
do
that,
you
might
need
you
might
need
contract
change.
A
You
might
not
need
contract
change
for
all
aspects
of
it,
but
you
might
at
least
for
the
dispatch
issue.
So
those
are
some
of
the
civilianization
things
that
are
raised
in
the
memo.
I
don't
know
if
anyone
has
further
comments.
There
have
definitely
been
a
bunch
of
comments
already
on
these,
but
just
any
further
comments
on.
F
F
I
do
have
a
question
about
you
know
the
civilian
just
creating
opportunity,
employment
opportunities
for
a
lot
of
our
civilians.
You
know
there
are
a
lot
of
folks
who
are
un.
You
know
underemployed
at
this
moment
right
and
if
we
can
look
at
this
conversation
through
what
is
the
greater
good
for
all
of
bostonians?
F
F
I
know
this
is
probably
going
to
sound
like
earthy,
crunchy
granola,
but
like
having
a
community
response
to
to
to
helping
to
deal
with
some
of
the
the
issues
that
are
happening
in
our
community.
F
I
know
that
we
have
the
the
mental
health
and
wellness
ordinance,
the
alternative
to
9-1-1,
that
counselor
and
lydia
counsel
edwards,
and
I
talked
about
earlier
this
year-
oh
my
god,
last
year,
jesus
lord
just
curious
about
like
how
can
we
be
intentional
about
creating
employment
opportunities
for
for
folks
who
are
more
connected
to
the
community
right,
because
that's
also
an
issue
that
we
have
a
lot
of
officers
that
don't
live
in
the
city
of
boston
and
that
there
are
ways
for
us
to
think
creatively
about
how
do
we
can
create
opportunities
or
even
a
pipeline
right
for
folks
and
just
curious
about
what
that
looks
like.
F
A
A
You
know
and
having
good
jobs
for
boston
residents.
I
think
there's
a
real
opportunity
here,
we're
talking
all
the
time
about
opportunities
in
our
construction
workforce.
This
is
a
chance
for
people
to
get
proximate
to
construction
sites
to
earn
a
good
wage.
Like
I
said,
to
take
a
workplace,
you
know
safety
training
course,
and
I
just
want
to
underscore
I
mean
even
just
the
again.
Even
the
you
know.
Let's
say
that,
there's
about
a
hundred
thousand
hours
that
are
going
unclaimed
by
the
police
department.
A
Right
now
I
mean
those
are
hours
that
could
really
be
worked
by
by
our
our
local
residents.
So
I
think
I
think,
there's
a
huge
opportunity
here.
So
thanks,
counselor
mejia
and
then
counselor
braden
to
that.
G
Point,
I
think
the
other
area
that
was
brought
up
mentioned
in
a
previous
conversation
was
the
use
of
crossing
guards
who
are
already
on
police
department
payroll
and
if
they
could
be
you
utilized
to
to
address
this
unclaimed
construction
details,
it
might
be
a
way
to
pilot.
G
C
Yeah-
and
I
just
want
to
add
in
terms
of
civilian
details-
I
think
another
positive
of
that
is
that
it
allows
our
officers
some
time.
Yeah,
I
mean
when
we
talk
about
forced
overtimes,
which
has
come
up
in
the
past
when
we
talk
about
just
how
strenuous
their
day-to-day
work
is
to
then
also
be
putting
squarely
on
their
shoulders
that
they're
exclusively
doing
details.
C
I
think
we're
creating
this
weird
double
world
where
we
have
them.
I
think,
quite
validly,
speak
about
not
being
able
to
see
their
families
not
being
able
to
attend
their
children's
sporting
events,
things
that
I
believe
all
people
should
be
able
to
really
do,
even
though
not
everybody
has
that
ability,
and
so
when
we're
talking
about
that,
when
we
talk
about
forced
overtimes
in
ot
to
then
try
to
square
that
away
with
why
we
should
exclusively
keep
details
in
there
around
them.
C
We
should
have
this
ability
for
hours
and
hours
and
hours
and
hours
of
detail
work
on
top
of
their
regularly
scheduled
work.
I
I
just
don't
know
why
that
would
be
a
negative
to
take
away
something
from
their
plate
when
they
have
so
much
on
it.
So
I
just
think:
there's
there's
an
additional
beyond
just
you
know,
creating
a
civilian
workforce
and
creating
new
jobs.
I
do
think
there's
a
mental
health.
There's
a
amount
of
hours
worked
in
keeping
that
in
a
healthy
realm
for
officers
that,
I
think
is
worth
approaching
this
on
as
well.
A
Great,
thank
you.
Counselor
arroyo,
counselor
mejia
were
you
looking
to
add
something.
F
No,
I
actually
wanted
to
go
back
to
the
the
the
comment
around
the
civilian.
You
know
creating
opportunities
for
folks
to
have
competitive
wages.
F
You
know-
and
I
think
that
that
is
also
should
be
a
part
of
the
conversation
in
terms
of
what
that
would
look
like
and-
and
I
think
I
think
it
was
counselor
breeden
had
talked
about
some
of
the
administrative
jobs
that
are
being
done
right
now
through
the
the
police
department
that
could
potentially
be
also
given
to
regular
civilians,
and
I'm
curious
a
little
bit
more
about
what
that
could
look
like
and
what
are
some
of
the
barriers
to
making
that
happen.
A
Yeah,
so
I
think
I
think
that
was,
I
think
liz
did
you
mention
those
I
I
mentioned
those,
but
I'm
not
sure
I
think
what
it.
G
Wasn't
me
it
wasn't
me,
madam
chair.
I
think
I.
A
Think
it
was
me,
no
I'm
just
thinking
yeah,
so
basically,
no,
I
just
I
I
want
to
make
sure
I
had
miss
counselor
and
say
something
about
them,
so
yeah.
I
think
a
number
of
these
so
there's
a
bunch
of
desk
roles
in
in
dispatch
and
detail
assignment
other
things
that
are
assigned
to
sworn
officers
by
the
contract.
That
I
think
are
not.
A
You
know
it's
not
clear
that
you
that,
like
that,
it's
the
best
use
of
kind
of
those
extra
skills
that
police
officers
bring
to
their
work
and
so
from
the
city's
perspective
and
a
sort
of
cost
management
perspective
like
when
we're
paying
for
a
sworn
officer.
I
think
it's
important
to
have
them
doing
police
work
and
so,
like
I
said
this,
it
was
the
department
referenced
in
in
july
of
last
year,
kind
of
a
long-term
goal
of
about
80
to
100
of
those.
Some
of
them
are
called
out
in
the
contract.
A
Currently,
some
aren't,
but
there's
a
substantial,
a
substantial
number
of
them.
Counselor
mejia
that,
in
terms
of
barriers
we
would
have
to
that
would
be
a
contract
negotiation
point
where
it
actually,
because
sometimes
in
the
contract,
it
actually
says
like
there
will
be
this
number
of
detail.
Officers
like
in
each
of
the
units
or
whatever
so
so
we'd
actually
have
to
change
that,
and
then
in
some
places
it's
just
a
practice,
and
it
could
you
know
it's
something
that
there
could
be
a
management
shift
on
without
necessarily
a
contract
change.
So
it.
F
Depends
are
we
seeing
this
memo
as
a
living
document
like
yes,
are
there
any
other
reforms
that
we,
as
a
council,
you
know,
are
thinking
of
proposing
and
will
we
have
the
opportunity
to
update
this
document
to
reflect
those
proposed
changes
as
we
continue
to
evolve
the
dialogue?
Are
we
seeing
this
as
something
as
something
that
will
continue
to
change
as
the
times
change.
A
Certainly
for
me,
as
a
committee
chair,
is
for
us
to
get
to
something
that
enough
of
us
can
kind
of
agree
on
as
a
statement
of
principles
to
put
it
out
there
and
have
it
help
set
those
expectations
at
the
bargaining
table
because,
like
pam
said,
you
know,
we
and
frankly,
legislative
bodies
across
the
state
have
gotten
into
a
situation
where
people
expect
that,
at
the
end
of
the
day,
we'll
just
approve
those
joint
labor
management
committee
awards
which,
as
I
said
last
time,
you
know,
I
was
really
financially
very
difficult
for
the
city,
and
I
would
expect
to
be
so
again.
A
I
think
you
know
in
order
to
kind
of
put
that
out
on
the
table,
we
have
to
reach
somewhere
static,
but
it's
only
static
for
a
period
of
time.
Right
I
mean
people
can
we
can
always
add
things
into
the
conversation.
A
You
know
who's
who's
at
the
table
shifts,
but
the
whole
point
of
of
having
this
working
session
and
this
conversation
and
the
reason
like
that.
The
reason
I
pulled
together
the
memo
in
the
first
place
is
that
it
was
really
a
way
of
summing
up
a
lot
of
the
conversations
we'd
been
having
and
then
trying
to
have
the
next
iteration.
So
I'd
say:
if
there's
anything
that
people
want
to
add,
we
should
throw
it
into
the
mix
now
or
later
so.
G
Had
just
a
quick
comment,
you
know
if
we
start
from
the
premise
that
what
we're
doing
is
unsustainable,
which
it
is
isn't
sustainable.
G
I
wonder
if
the
police
department
has
ever
done
like
a
systematic
review
of
all
their
all
their
grades
and
and
really
looked
at
like
which
positions
could
be
civilianized
or
and
what
sort
of
support
those
civilians
would
need
in
terms
of
supervision
or
whatever,
because
unless
we
are
partnered
with
the
police
department.
G
In
this
conversation
and
making
a
concerted
effort
to
actually
do
something
at
the
end
of
the
day,
then
we're
going
to
be
in
the
same
place
next
year
and
it'd
be
really
nice
to
to
think
that
we
are
working
in
partnership
with
the
police
department
to
try
and
and
and
achieve
cost
savings.
That
will
will
impact
the
bottom
line
at
the
end
of.
D
G
Day
and
and
yet
respecting
the
the
special
skills
that
police
officers,
the
sworn
officers
do
have
and,
and
that
the
and
then
recognizing
the
contributions
that
civilians,
so
I
think
it
off,
but
I
I
I
think
it
only
can
can
only
be
if
we
work
in
part.
D
A
I
think
that
having
a
department
that
is
committed
to
the
fiscal
responsibility
and
reform-
and
frankly
I
mean
you-
know,
mayoral
leadership
in
that
category
is
just
going
to
be
extremely
important
for
really
making
progress
on
this
front,
and-
and
I
want
to
underscore
that
in
some
ways
what
that's
about
is
asking
you
know
it's
about.
It's,
I
think
part
of
in
a
funny
way.
Part
of
what
this
exercise
is
about
is
asking
the
department
to
think
a
little
bit
more
like
like.
A
Okay?
How
do
I
make
this
a
better
city?
Well,
I've
got
to
ensure
public
safety,
and
I've
also
got
to
ensure
public
education,
and
I've
also
got
to
get
this
street
paved
right
like
and
like
you,
you
know
what
one
of
the
first
things
you
think
is
you
don't
want
to
give
up
any
of
those
priorities,
so
you
immediately
start
wondering
how
do
we
do
this
smarter
right?
How
do
we
do
this
better?
How
do
we
make
sure
that
all
of
these
goals
can
be
met
with
our
current
resources,
and
I
think
that's
what
that's?
A
A
The
challenge
we
have
is
that,
because
of
the
way
that
this
rule
has
been
implemented,
the
the
two
departments
that
we
don't
ask
to
think
that
way
are
police
and
fire
in
the
sense
that
there
is
kind
of
an
ability
to
draw
infinite
resources,
and
I
think
not
always
a
squaring
up
about
our
need
to
absolutely
prioritize
public
safety.
But
do
it
in
a
way.
A
That's
really,
like
you
know,
stewarding
every
dollar,
as
though
there
was
a
critical
need
for
it,
because
there
is
so
you
know,
so
I
think
you're
totally
right,
counselor
braden,
that
it's
got
to
be
a
partnership
with
the
department
on
that
front.
There's
no
other
real
way
forward,
and
I
think
this
conversation
is
about
identifying
some
of
those
issues,
but
that
would
help,
but
you
need
a
department's
partnership,
so
counselor
campbell,
I
see
you
got
your
hand
raised.
B
I
I
just
I
agree
with
you
and
and
appreciate
council
braden's
point.
I
think
I
appreciate
this
the
work
and
the
exercise
to
put
on
paper
some
of
what
we're
discussing
offline
or
with
residents
and
to
to
make
it
succinct
and
to
present
it
to
the
administration
department
to
make
it
easier
for
them
to
partner
with
us.
B
But
if
you
do
not
have
a
department
or
leadership
that
is
open
to
these
types
of
discussions
and
trying
different
things,
it
is
going
to
be
very
difficult,
extremely
difficult
to
see
the
reforms
that
we
would
want
to
see
to
see
the
transparency
that
we
would
want
to
see
to
get
the
accountability
that
we
would
want
to
get.
I've
had
really
great
experiences
with
previous
leadership
in
the
police
department.
Even
on
I
always
looked
at
body
cameras,
because
that
was
one
issue
that
was
when
I
first
came
to
the
council.
B
The
city,
through
the
work
of
tremendous
advocates,
had
agreed
to
do
a
pilot
program.
It
took
a
long
time
for
the
city
to
agree
to
that.
But
then
the
question
was
well.
How
are
we
going
to
implement
that?
And
as
the
chair
of
public
safety
worked
with
the
department
at
the
time,
it
was
commissioner
evans.
B
Commissioner
evans
and
others
brought
letters
and
different
ideas
as
to
what
the
policy
should
include
into
that
space
and
when
we
came
out
on
the
other
side,
advocates
agreed
that
actually,
the
plan
governing
the
pilot
program
was
a
good
one
and
that
maybe
they
got.
I
think
it
was
over
80
percent
of
what
they
asked
for,
which
is
huge.
B
Given
that,
usually,
if
we
ask
for
things
you're
lucky
you
get
50
80
or
something
it
was
a
very
high
number,
and
that
was
only
because
you
had
a
department
that
was
willing
to
bring
in
these
ideas,
entertain
them
and
also
be
flexible
in
their
thinking.
If
we
don't
have
that,
it
is
going
to
be
very
difficult
and
I
think
we're
seeing
that
right
now,
not
just
on
the
overtime
conversations
or
other
pieces
of
legislation,
but
also
the
commitments
the
city
agreed
to
to
implement
those
things.
B
If
you
don't
have
leadership
and
those
in
leadership
at
the
department
who
are
who
are
open-minded
and
and
wanting
to
see
some
of
these
changes,
it's
going
to
be
very
difficult.
So
I
just
wanted
to
lift
that
point
up.
I
appreciate
these
the
exercise
because
I
think
it
would
be
easier
to
give
them
specifics,
but
we've
done
that
and
it
still
is
challenging.
So
obviously
there's
some
leadership
changes
going
on
questions
about
leadership
right
now
in
the
department
which,
of
course
is
making
it
a
lot
more
difficult
to
do
some
of
this.
B
But
I
think
it's
a
question.
We
all
need
to
reflect
and
think
about
and
to
to
just
really
lift
up
for
the
public
in
particular,
who
I
think
also
remains
frustrated
with
the
the
how
long
it
takes
to
get
things
done
and
to
move
some
of
these
things
forward
or
to
get
the
type
of
transparency.
We
would
like
to
see
from
the
department.
A
Thanks
so
much
counselor
campbell,
I
think
I
want
to
move
to
the
last
set
of
topics
and
then
I'll
and
ask
colleagues
for
comments
on
those
and
any
and
any
final
comments
too.
So
this
is
really
about
transparency,
to
enhance
and
ensure
public
trust
and
actually
counselor
campbell
was
just
talking
about
body
cameras
and
one
of
the
things
that's
come
up
repeatedly
is
the
desire
to
you
know,
extend
body
cameras
to
all
bpd
units
and
require
them
to
be
worn
during
overtime
hours.
A
That
was
something
that
was
in
the
boston,
police
task,
form
task,
sorry,
boston,
police
reform,
task,
force
report
and-
and
I
think
you
know,
there's
an
expectation
on
the
council
side
that
that
expansion
will
be
achieved.
It's
not
clear
if
it
needs
contract
change
or
it
could
be
done
through
department
policy,
but
I
think
either
way.
That's
you
know,
we've
heard
a
lot
of
people
say,
look
we're
doing.
I
mean,
as
we
know,
we
talked
about.
A
We've
got
a
lot
of
officers,
doing
overtime
replacement
over
time,
which
means
they're,
covering
someone
else's
shift.
So
from
the
member
of
the
public's
perspective,
it's
completely
contingent
whether
the
officer
who
you're
interacting
with
is
on
overtime
or
on
regular
hours,
and
they
should
have
a
body
camera
on
in
either
case
and
then
another
couple
of
things
in
this
transparency
category
is,
you
know,
sharing
information.
A
That's
provided
to
the
unions
with
the
public
as
well,
and
this
again
I
don't
think
is
really
a
bargaining
thing,
but
it
there
are
a
bunch
of
places
where
police
contracts
require
that
information
like
work
schedules,
shift
vacancies
available
over
time
or
detail,
shifts
seniority,
lists,
orders
etc,
be
publicly
posted
on
department,
bulletin
boards
or
otherwise
shared,
and
I
think
those
things
should
be
publicly
posted
and
shared
with
the
public
as
well
and
and
frankly,
that
would
help.
A
It
would
make
it
easier,
given
the
lack
of
clarity
about
minimum
staffing
levels
to
understand
how
staffing
is
distributed
across
the
department
and
and
it
would,
it
would
help
the
council
to
understand
where
that
distribution
is
dictated
by
the
contracts
or
by
sort
of
the
discretion
of
the
commissioner
and
the
command
staff
and
then
another.
A
third
thing
is
just
to
make
sure
that
the
contract
language
doesn't
impede
the
sharing
of
important
use
of
force
and
sensitive
officer
conduct
accountability,
data
with
the
public.
A
So
again,
this
is
really
about
enforcing
the
ideas
of
the
task
force.
The
task
force
is
recommendations.
Four
and
five
focused
on
public-facing
data,
dashboards,
about
use
of
force,
fios
complaints,
search
warrants,
etc
to
be
disaggregated
by
various
categories
like
race,
ethnicity
and
zip
code,
and
so
you
know,
you'd
want
to
make
sure
that
our
contracts
allowed
for
sharing
the
data
in
that
way
in
order
to
enhance
public
confidence
and
policing-
and
I
think
that's
the
overall
thing
is
that
the
you
know
what's
tough
about.
A
What's
tough
about
these
conversations
and
it's
true
for
all
city,
all
city
departments,
is
that
there's
a
you
know,
there's
a
necessary
relationship
of
mutual
interdependence
and
trust
between
the
public,
the
departments
and
the
elected
officials
right.
The
public
elects
us
to
hold
the
departments
accountable.
We
regard
we
rely
on
the
departments
to
do
their
work.
The
public
relies
on
them,
but
often
they
can't
do
their
work
without
the
public
trust.
A
Nowhere
is
that
more
true
than
in
policing
and
and
a
lot
of
this
work
to
kind
of
you
know
bring
the
way
that
the
contracts
have
policy
implications
out
into
the
out
into
the
sunlight
and
talk
about
it
is
to
help
build
that
kind
of
public
trust
in
the
system
that
we
have
and
not
have.
It
feel
like
there's
invisible
reasons
why
we
can't
police
in
the
way
that's
sort
of
smartest
and
most
responsible
for
our
for
our
community.
A
So
any
comments
on
on
this
category
on
the
transparency
front
that
anyone
wanted
to
raise.
I
know
again
that
we've
talked
about
some
of
this
before.
F
Yes,
no,
I
really
do
appreciate
the
the
accountability
piece.
F
I
think,
because
that's
the
best
way
for
us
to
hold
ourselves
accountable
to
the
process,
but
I
think
hold
ourselves
accountable
to
the
people
just
as
equally
as
important
is
making
sure
that
we're
sharing
information
and
that
there
is
a
dashboard,
I
always
say,
I'm
the
dashboard
queen,
because
I
want
like
elizabeth
warren
there's
a
plan
for
everything
I
want
to
dashboard
for
everything
right
like
that,
we
can
do
some
checks
and
balances
that
there's
a
there's
a
way
for
us
to
look
at
how
much
money
we're
spending
at
overtime
that
we're
doing
this
in
a
way
that
we
can
help
support,
making
data
informed
decisions
right
in
terms
of
just
saying
we're
going
to
do
x,
y
and
z.
F
Well,
let's
look
at
the
data.
Let's
you
know
is:
is
this
the
right
move?
I
I
think
that
this
accountability
and
transparency
piece
is
the
most
critical
piece
of
this
whole
conversation
is
like:
how
do
we,
how
what
what
systems
are
we
going
to
put
in
place
to
ensure
that
we
are
able
to
address
this
once
and
for
all?
F
I
feel
like
we
keep
having
the
same
conversation,
and
it
feels
like
we've
been
at
this
for
a
year
now,
counselor
bach
and
I'm
hoping
that
that
those
who
are
tuning
in
particularly
our
police
officers,
know
that
this
is
like
council
breeding
said
is
that
we
need
to
do
this
in
partnership
and
so
that
it
doesn't
feel
like
we're
doing
this
to
them,
but
that
we're
doing
this
with
them,
and
I
think
that
that
is
really
important
and
then
maybe
figuring
out
a
way
for
them
to
also
participate
in
and
just
providing
some
input.
F
I
know
that
you
said
earlier
that
there
there
couldn't
be
that,
because
of
the
way
the
situation
works,
but
there
must
be
a
mechanism
in
place
for
us
to
hear
you
know
from
them.
So
I'm
just
curious
about
what
that
accountability
would
look
like
for
them
as
well,
how
they
plan
to
hold
themselves
accountable
to
this.
A
So
we,
the
council,
can't
have
a
back
and
forth
two-way
conversation
with
the
police
unions
about
the
contracts
and
that's
because
there's
a
charter
provision
that
says
that
the
council
needs
to
not
negotiate
contracts
on
behalf
of
the
city,
and
so
when
we're
talking
about
these
contract
provisions
in
order
to
make
sure
that
we
stay
in
the
kind
of
realm
of
policy
conversation
and
not
get
into
some
kind
of
real-time
negotiation.
That's
why
we
can't
have
the
unions
on
the
line
here.
A
Nothing
about
that
prevents
our
police
officers
from
you
know
from
sending
written
testimony
from
testifying.
You
know
in
their
personal
capacities,
you
know
just
it
can't
be
a
back
and
forth
with
the
council,
but
but
I
also
want
to
stress
that,
to
your
point,
counselor
mejia,
about
the
role
of
of
the
officers
and
officer
leadership.
I
think
it's.
A
I
think
it's
important
to
underscore
that,
like,
of
course
there
so
there's
a
negotiation
right
that
happens
between
our
bargaining
units,
our
police
bargaining
units
and
the
administration,
and
you
know
I
mean
to
borrow
something
that
you
often
say
right.
I
think
part
of
the
goal
here
with
this
policy.
A
Accountability
is
to
is
to
call
everyone,
both
the
police
officers
and
the
administration
not
to
call
them
out,
but
to
call
them
in
right,
and
the
weird
thing
is
that
we
can't
convene
that
conversation
between
all
the
parties
because
of
this
rule
about
us
not
negotiating
the
contracts.
But
what
we
can
do
is
in
this
space.
A
Talk
about
these
are
the
expectations
that
we're
trying
to
set
because
of
what
we're
hearing
from
the
people
we
represent
right
and
then
we're
asking
them
all
to
bring
those
into
the
conversation
and
to
bargain
in
good
faith,
not
to
go
to
the
not
to
reach
impasse
and
go
to
the
you
know,
go
to
your
corner
and
hope
that
you
can
get
the
best
thing
out
of
the
arbitration
committee,
but
to
say
instead,
like
hey,
how
do
we
together
reach
agreement
on
on
responsible
policing
in
the
city
and,
and
you
know,
contract
changes
that
can
work
for
policy
reform?
A
D
A
This
is
you
know
it's
like
counselor
edward
said,
like
you
know,
hashing
out
views
about
contract
provisions
is
not
the
sexy
part
of
counseloring,
but
it
is,
I
think,
really
important
in
the
weeds
policy
work
on
an
issue
that
that
people
in
the
city
care
so
much
about,
and
that
has
so
many
dimensions
related
to
keeping
folks
feeling,
safe
and
feeling
and
feeling
respected
and
trusting
their
government
right
and
there's.
There
is
nothing
more
serious
that
the
government
does
than
to
wield
the
use
of
force.
A
D
A
In
the
world
of
policing,
it
can
have
these
really
permanent
effects
on
people's
lives
and-
and
we
have
to-
we
have,
to
you-
know-
hold
ourselves
to
the
highest
standard
in
the
whole
way
that
we
that
we
govern
that.
So
so
definitely
we'll
be.
My
staff
and
the
committee
staff
will
be
kind
of
collecting
everybody's
comments
from
today
and
sort
of
working
on
an
updated
version
of
this
document.
But
I'm
really
grateful
for
everyone's
engagement
and
I
do
want
to
give
counselor
campbell.
A
Great
thanks
anyone
else
looking
for
raised
hands;
okay,
great
all
right!
Well,
in
that
case,
I'm
going
to
adjourn
this
working
session
of
the
boston
city
council's
ways
and
means
committee.
Thank
you
all
thank.