Carroll County, MD Board of County Commissioners Open Sessions, 25 Aug 2022

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From YouTube: Board of Carroll County Commissioners Work Session, Thursday, August 25 2022

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https://www.carrollcountymd.gov

A

Go ahead! Okay, unless you get that good afternoon, I think it's somewhere around one o'clock and.

B

We are in our third work session for um ag and conservation. um This is three. This is three and.

B

Really appreciate, uh linda mary and the whole team uh for getting us to where we are right now.

B

And let's see where we need to go from here um and yeah, we do have a not just a quorum but a full.

B

Host of uh commissioners with us, so we do have one more. We have another one scheduled for.

B

Next thursday, correct so here's where everything stands today we're going to go over the follow-up.

C

From the august 11th meeting, which was two weeks ago because last week we did not have a session.

C

um And then we're going to do the continued review of the 158 proposals, the 155 proposals.

C

And then discuss the ag remaining portions, we believe we can get through all of this today.

C

um The goal moving forward is for next week to come to you make sure that everything is how.

C

You want it and then request to go to public hearing, and that will be on september 1st.

C

We'd like to try to schedule a public hearing during your regular session.

C

On september, 21st is what we'd be looking at then come back on october 6th to have a recap.

C

Of the public hearing and any comments that were made during the public hearing um and just have.

C

That discussion, if there's any changes or any further review, you'd like to see after that.

C

um And I planned extra in so if we need to take one away we can, but I wanted to have it on your.

C

Calendar that way on the 13th, we could come back to the final legislation and on the 20th adopt.

B

The 20th of october, okay and look at any time, if you you know, we don't need like the october 13th.

C

We can use that date, then as the adoption date, but I padded it a little bit just in case we needed to.

C

Come back and forth again: okay, so that would be moving forward from here um and our hope is to.

C

Get through all of this today, and I think with that we can do that, and I watched the video I.

C

Unfortunately, was not able to be here um at that earlier august meeting, but I watched emily did an.

C

Excellent job and price and stuff so um yeah, I think we're cruising. I expect nothing less and.

B

I just ask that we continue to keep the schedule highlighted on the web page and to the community.

B

So they are aware, uh and if we do it in multiple ways, whether it's uh through your page through.

B

uh You know just a quick press release. This is the status we're at. So the community is aware of.

B

One of the importance of what we're doing and then also the timeline for late september october. I.

B

Mean for their engagement, so, okay, yeah! That's what we've planned out so far! So as soon as I get those.

C

Fixed then, we will definitely post all of that well in advance yeah. So with all the admin being.

B

Done, let's get right into it all right! Absolutely so I'm going to go ahead and turn it over to mary.

C

And I think you wanted to start with the follow-up from the august 11th meeting, which is a worksheet.

C

That's in front of you um with some information from your questions at that meeting. Sure thank you.

D

um And I think we've captured all the questions that you had but interrupt at any time. um First,.

D

Question that came up was right in front of you on the definition of agritourism, and there was a.

D

Question about how it would be determined if the agricultural production or processing that it is.

D

Connected to is actually a principal use and jay and his staff have provided the following.

D

Information that the minimum lot size for the agricultural purposes has to be three acres. If.

D

The property has the agricultural uses of primary activity or the main use of the property as a farm.

D

Then the agritourism would be permitted and there's definitions for both of those things.

D

Principal use and agricultural purposes in the zoning code to guide that so.

E

Now you did, it is the the three acres is not arbitrary.

F

Yes, that's the minimum required to be considered.

F

Agricultural or to do agricultural uses in whose code state code or outcome.

D

And like everything, it's subject to certain degree of interpretation by the zoning administrator, we.

D

Try to make it as tight as we can, but there's always a little bit of interpretation. Somebody.

B

Coming with a 2.8 is one thing, as opposed to a 1.4, correct. Okay, it's like twice as much.

G

Okay, if there's no questions on that, um did you mind going down to the bottom of page one.

D

So there was a question about building height and the purpose of this change was to make the zoning.

D

Code consistent with the building code, there was a question about the use of the word average height.

D

Which I agree is a little confusing. You can see the illustration in front of you. It really means.

D

The midpoint and it's being called average, but um we do want to make it consistent with the building.

D

Code, so we do still want to use the word average. We are working on and we'll we'll bring it to you.

D

In the next month, or so where we've illustrated all the definitions.

D

And this will be in a guide for the citizens.

D

Okay, the next question was on page three: it was regarding garden supply center and there was.

D

A question about the ambiguity of small or light garden supplies. That's an existing.

D

Language in the code we're proposing the following new definition to be more clear: an.

D

Establishment for the sale of garden supplies and equipment, including, but not limited to.

D

Plant food nutrients, pots, garden, decorations, seeds, mulch fertilizer soil, insecticide and hand tools.

D

And I think that is clearer and it also since it includes the including but not limited to. I think.

D

It covers it and our county attorney's office did look at that and was comfortable with it.

A

They're not limited to is, I know you can't be all inclusive, but when you put not limited to.

A

That I don't know kind of opens the door to my opinion. But I like it better than light or small.

D

It's better than that, and I I I can ask jay if you would like to to elaborate.

D

But when we use that language, I think what he does is he takes the list of.

D

Uses and uses this judgment on whether or not it's similar to those uses. Clearly, a tractor isn't.

D

Limited or isn't similar to those uses, something like that on whether something would fit in with.

F

That what would a average everyday small garden supply center be selling? It's not. You know using.

F

Walmart to compare it or those to compare it to this would be like an ace hardware or something.

F

What are they selling okay and is that kind of the norm? Okay, if there's no proposed.

D

Clear further clarifications of that one um on page 20, this was something I believe we agreed to.

D

But I I just wanted you to see it in writing. The purpose of the conservation district is more clear.

D

And provides um provides more clarity, it says industrial development should not be located in.

D

These areas and we have no industrial uses that are permitted in them. So that's, I think, pretty.

D

Clear, instead of commercial and industrial development should not generally be located.

D

Okay on page 28, there was question regarding the difference between communication tower.

D

And communication tower complex and it was explained that they're defined communication.

D

Tower is one communication tower complex is more than one, but I got further clarity from the.

D

Zoning administrator that a tower would just be a single free standing tower. It could have various.

D

Unlimited antennas attached, I think that was part of the concern, the antennas that were attached.

A

So the go ahead, commissioner, is say: a hundred foot silo. It has several.

H

Towers on it is that a communication complex no sir okay, I don't on 140 the tower of 140 by um I.

A

Don't know where it is, you know what I mean. Yes, is that a tower? Is that a complex, that's a tower? It's.

A

Got four: it's not four sides, but it's got a whole bunch of antennas on it. Okay and the towers is the.

F

Structure, that's holding everything up, just like a monopole for a cell tower right or if you had a.

F

Small square tower going up it's it's that's the tower. Okay and everything.

F

Else is individual antennas or dishes. That's all right, actually just to clarify a little.

F

Farther complex would be something like out at um comcast out on 32 um the satellite placed down.

F

Woodbine, I think it's sec is the company's name. They have like 30 different antennas on their farm.

F

Wttr towers used to be a complex because it had three towers and now it's a single.

A

So they were attached should be one tower there right right, yeah.

A

Okay, okay, um the next um issue- and this wasn't really something you had asked for.

D

Well, you did ask for more information, so it's provided here.

D

The use is assisted living, which is only that that's over eight residents, nursing homes.

D

Daycare centers private schools and religious establishment there we had a rather lengthy.

D

Discussion about the appropriateness of those in the ag and conservation districts, commissioner.

D

Wants will recall, we had a similar discussion in planning commission about this and they.

D

Did agree to make no changes to what originally had been proposed, but I wanted to just give you.

D

Not just for the egg and conservation for these uses, these are all the zoning districts.

D

And the different ways that they're allowed so anytime, you see the c is these. Things are.

D

Conditional uses x, they're, prohibited and p they're permitted by right oftentimes with.

D

Some conditions, but um but they are permitted by right, so the table is the existing code.

D

The proposed text that we have in front of us it makes no changes to assisted living in nursing.

D

Homes in ag or conservation, so those would remain conditional uses. It makes no change to daycare.

D

Private schools and religious establishments in the ag, those would all be permitted, uses and.

D

Changes daycare and private school from permitted to conditional in conservation so.

D

We also provided a little more information if you were talking about making changes regarding how.

D

Many non-conforming uses there would be so there's currently three nursing homes in assisted living.

D

They're classified in the same way for our purposes in the conservation.

D

Six nursing homes assisted living in the ag I'll point out three of those are on ag remainders.

D

One private school in conservation, eight private schools in ag 72 religious establishments in the.

D

Ag district and 11 religious establishments in the conservation district, so that gives you kind of.

D

The scope of, what's out there now and if you made changes what you would be making non-conforming by.

D

Doing that wow, so yes, what is the principal use of the ag district? What's it to be.

D

Well, I can read you the purpose section. um Well, it ends up being a catch-all.

D

So the purpose of the agricultural district is to provide locations generally outside of the.

D

Designated growth areas where agriculture is the primary land use residential development.

D

Potential is generally limited to one single family or two family dwelling for every 20 acres.

D

Commercial and industrial uses are limited to agribusiness agritourism and those uses.

D

Intended to serve the agricultural industry and residents of the area, while maintaining.

D

The character of the surrounding countryside, no water and sewer service is planned to these areas.

D

So it's very similar for conservation too. It is similar, it's a little more restrictive. That's the.

H

What we state is the primary use. Why then, do we have these other things in there? um Well,.

D

I mean I can go back to our discussion with the planning commission a lot of it's centered around.

D

And I don't have the zoning map here, but most the county is going to be ag and conservation and.

D

These are services that are provided to the people who live outside of the growth areas and if you.

D

Don't have a daycare center, but in your commercial districts, then right inside the towns and.

D

Down in the freedom area in the growth area, then you're not necessarily providing the services.

D

That um of daycare of private schools, of church of religious establishments that the citizens.

D

Need in those areas in those areas or may want in those areas, should we rethink that.

I

You're affecting a lot of folks you're affecting a lot of establishments. If you do well, no.

H

Not in fact, the future establishment- oh future you're talking about be grandfathered and you.

H

Can't go back and change what's happening in the past, but well unless they sell them.

H

Unless they sell the properties, you know falls under the new regulations like any property.

H

We would sell right correct. No, that's not true, because you sell a property doesn't mean that it.

F

Changes a different owner could be doing the same. You mean if it's already existing as one of these.

F

Oh yeah yeah, if you saw it, I I no it's not the same. I was thinking a different area comes in.

H

They request zoning uh if I'm in ag area to go to a private school or something there. That would be.

H

Where you would change those because you know I want to keep the consistency of what.

H

Consistent with what the intent is of that area, well, no one would come in with anything. So it's.

C

Either a permitted or conditional condition is what they would come in for, but in the ags and.

C

What we're saying that's a primary principle use in the conservationist condition. So, yes, they would.

C

Have to come in to bca to have those we have to be careful of how we treat these. I think it's an all.

C

Or nothing either we allow churches and schools or we don't. We can't separate institutional uses.

C

As different from each other, that's federal law, especially when it comes to churches, you can't.

C

Treat them differently than you would a private, school or other type of institutional use. So.

D

And the planning commission is recommending that it be a little bit more restrictive, changing.

D

Daycare in private schools from permitted to conditional and conservation so that that was the.

D

One change that was recommended that you'll see in the in the new use table as opposed to this table.

D

That's in front of you on this sheet um and again this was a very lengthy discussion that they had.

D

As well as staff as chris will remember, we talked about this for a long time, because it does go back.

D

To the purpose of the district, but it also goes back to, um but then it goes back to our limited.

C

Ability to have expanded commercial industrial that, if you wanted to see the only one in churches,.

C

In commercial, industrial or even in residential, we don't have a lot of larger lots available.

C

To build a church um we're in the ag zone, we do have large lots to have to be able to say to.

C

Church I mean today's churches are much different than your small chapels. As we all know,.

E

That's a good point and we just we don't know how we land. Why are we making the religious.

B

Establishments conditional in conservation as opposed to the intent was that conservation zones.

C

Are a little more sensitive lands, um they tend to follow more of the steep slopes. Flood plains.

C

That type of stream corridor so really evaluating construction on conservation zone land with a more.

C

Critical first step of its conservation, so that's why we're making them conditional needs a little.

E

Bit more scrutiny, correct, correct that was kind of the thought process, tightening up our conservation.

C

District um moving forward because it was quite permissive as far as residential development.

C

Was concerned and other types of development, so if it's going to be conservation, then let's.

C

Move more to that intent of what conservation should be and those lands are.

C

More sensitive and there's a potential there could be a negative impact upon review that.

E

Would be discovered correct, even though we have great environmental regulations, it's just one.

C

More additional scrutiny but you're not going to build unless you're able to build correct.

C

It's just that one additional level of scrutiny on conservation lands to you know try to limit.

C

Development I mean, even though a church is not a commercial development, it is an intense use.

C

For uh you know all practical purposes: it's parking, it's construction, yep, it's impervious.

C

Surface, it's things like that, so not having them trying to discourage or not encourage them to be.

C

um In conservation land looking more to the ag land, which is a little more suited for development,.

C

Well, my major concern about this and I'm looking globally at the whole thing I shared last week.

H

You know when they come into the middle of the field and come in with a development or something.

H

This takes prime land out of production and we're losing about 2 000 acres a day nationally.

H

About production- and I was just reading another article here- this is according to the united.

H

Nations, more than 800 million people faced hunger in 2020. If the population estimates are correct,.

H

There will be nearly nearly two bill: 2 billion more humans to feed on the earth by 2050.

H

33 of the earth's land surface is already used for agriculture, we're losing that number.

H

It's shrinking populations going up, production areas are going down and a lot of it's due to.

H

Not enforcing zoning at this level now every this is a issue in every county across the country. We.

H

Don't accept concerning standards that hold that hold those levels by doing that, one of.

H

These days, it's going to hit an equilibrium, we're not going to be able to feed our own population.

H

And that hits somebody it's going to be interesting and we're not going to see.

H

But it all starts from what we do today, because once land's gone.

H

It doesn't come back. That's my major concern in the whole big picture here that I'm looking at.

H

I mean you're making your argument for why we're doing this, I mean you're you're, which is a good.

B

Thing I mean we are, we are defining this best to use the agriculturally zoned properties best for.

B

Its and it's its purpose that mary should be for agricultural purposes right and same thing,.

B

With the country here and conservation is just about the same 83 religious establishments on ag.

H

Conservation areas- that's already done; we can't help it. However, in the future, we can.

H

We can change this and it says it's a zoning issue and I do have to use this ground for I.

J

Do actually have the answer that you asked previously commissioners for agriculture.

J

Zoned land we have 186 000 acres that is zoned ag. You have 58 000 acres at a zone, conservation.

J

And only 32 000 acres, that is zoned residential, commercial or industrial, that is in the county.

J

Outside the municipal limits and growth areas, how much is 186 are usable anchors.

C

That we don't know that we don't know we have. You know we have roughly, of course, obviously 70 was.

J

It 9 000, give or take now that's in ag prez, so we didn't break it down by the usable acreage aspect.

J

However, you know again only having 32 000 acres of residential, commercial and industrial land.

J

In the county itself, unfortunately, limits areas where churches and other things can potentially.

J

Go because those have you know the least and best use, especially for industrial, commercial.

J

Land is for industrial commercial aspect. What is that saturation under population.

C

Well, that depends on what you would consider like the carrying capacity of the county.

C

And what infrastructure and what all the different changes we intend to make in the.

C

Future, so that's! That's! That's a that's a very challenging question to answer.

H

I think it was done in 1987 when they started looking at the examiners.

H

Maximum numbers about 225 000 people in calcutane would be saturated.

H

That was from a study long ago I mean when they started looking at zoning, uh putting it in.

H

And that's the number I've used several times here for different aspects here, but.

H

That is about our maximum build out in carroll county for everything and we're 180 170.. So.

H

I'm just looking at this from a large perspective. What do we want to do if we that zoning.

H

Keep eating up at this; it keeps eating up at it, or did we hold it up quarter line somewhere.

H

And that's going to be up to the people here, but I think we have to look at these.

H

uh Things from that point of view and our ag press does a great job of holding.

H

The line on a lot of this to be a third of the county, which would be a hundred thousand.

H

About 180 000, that's still 80 000 acres out there with a lot of that woodland and other areas where.

H

It's either conservation and ag, so you probably realistically have about 20 000 in that maybe.

H

That's left in that.

H

B

My big comment is to lessen conditional use. I mean I've been saying that from the very beginning.

B

We should either make things permitted or not permitted. You know the best. We can.

B

But if you're saying the argument is that.

B

Things can be built up like, like you said, in the freedom area. You know like.

B

Just church religious establishments, we don't have the same in other parts of the county.

B

That's why it's conditional um to allow them to be built to serve opportunities. I get that.

B

But um the less we make things conditional, the more I'll say, cut and dry people have expectations.

B

Of what they're building and what their neighbors are going to look like and everybody around them.

H

That that's kind of a loophole, but we could do that in growth areas.

H

Foundational use and growth areas, nine growth areas in the county; there's nine growth areas.

B

In the county right and those growth areas in the future aren't really controlled by the.

C

County because I uh ideally they're supposed to be annexed in by the town, that's their ultimate.

C

Corporate limits right, and I definitely hear what you're saying commissioner weaver and I would just.

C

Offer this thought we're getting ready to embark again on a new update to the master plan. What you.

C

Are talking about like kind of endeavoring? How do we change ag zone? Do we need more if we keep.

C

Ag and get rid of all of these other types of uses, then do we need to look at another type of zoning.

C

Code for rural development, and what does that mean? I don't know if that that that's not going to.

C

Be done in this exercise here and maybe with the future master plan to kind of lay out what are our.

C

Housing needs what our economic development needs. How does that balance with the agricultural needs.

C

And intent of the county work through that process and do what we can now and actually you know I.

C

Will say we have an amazing agricultural district in zone income, we're one of the more restrictive.

C

uh Densities, 1 per 20 in the state, so we do have as far as residential density goes and.

C

We're pretty um we're not pretty uh we're, not very permissive to them. What the allowable uses are on.

C

Ag beyond the supportive agricultural uses, you know we do have churches, we do have schools, we.

C

Have to make accommodations for those somewhere to serve the agricultural community, essentially.

C

So that's a good balance for now. If you want to take it a step further.

C

I would suggest, let's look and see how that would move forward in a comprehensive approach.

H

Steve you've been very quiet, I mean I see. I saw both sides of the debate when it was.

I

With planning- and I disagree with you- I would go the other way if it was me, I'd make it if it. If.

I

He were going to do anything in my mind in the ag zone. I'd make it conditional and not permitted for.

H

What forever religious it is conditional it's in conservation, in conservation, not in religion, not.

I

In ag, so I see what you're saying, but I'd make it conditional so that the steps had to be taken to.

I

Get it there instead of just saying yep, you can do it and that would that would assist with your.

I

Thought pattern: a little bit additional use becomes then a bza. They have to follow the.

H

Ordinance, that's put together yeah, but they have to take the steps to do it.

I

Instead of just yep, you can do it that's better than nothing. I I agree with you yeah. It's sort of.

I

Like that middle-of-the-line type type thing I mean, I can see that in certain situations.

I

And I don't think it, I think it's in a lot of situations, it's better to complicate it.

C

So then the suggestion would be perhaps in agriculture following the conservation model.

C

Making daycare private school religious establish all conditional. Yes, instead of just you can't.

C

Just select, not religious, I would do them all that way and then that that requires uh these.

I

Established or these proposed establishments or venues to have to jump through some of the hoops.

E

I see your logic in that and it makes sense, but I you know the the challenge.

B

Is you know it's it's the rights of the property owners and it's the rights of the community.

B

That surround the property owners and that's what we're living with in a lot of other discussions.

I

Yes, the community, when they know that something is zoned x. Then here are the list of opportunities.

B

That so they should have no expectations of something being built and the clearer that is.

B

The more likely that person is going to you know, live a more, you know, buy a piece of property.

B

As opposed to, I don't know, what's going to be built there, you know in five years or 10 years and.

B

That got us into a lot of jams, you're kind of making. My point thanks.

B

Because because if it's permitted or not permitted, then I know this can be there.

B

Or it cannot be there, but if it's conditional it gives the. But if it's conditional it gives.

I

Those surrounding property owners the ability to be able to voice their opinion if it's permitted.

I

You've got no voices in a joining property owner; it gives you it gives those surrounding property.

A

Owners, the ability to voice their opinion, but I don't think they can change it. I mean.

A

The standard is I've, seen it changed, the standard for conditional use is if, if it's in this section.

A

Right here and it's zoned this way is this any worse than being in any other section in the.

A

County state, with the same zoning, that's a hard bar to go over to the lead right. So basically,.

A

The only additional thing you put in here in the conditional is they have to go through an extra.

A

Step and there can be certain um restrictions put on like hours of use and that kind of stuff.

A

That's that's it, but, but I I think, if it's listed as conditional, people have the expectation.

A

That, okay, we can stop this if it comes it's extremely hard to make that happen, I think.

A

It's unrealistic that if you put the people think that way, I really do you didn't solve any of the.

H

Issues I just mentioned earlier. I know that a couple loopholes to get around it.

H

And- and I don't agree that it's 100 of the time gonna be just whatever I think, voices.

I

Have changed some folks minds that have I remember a project out in my district.

I

It never came because the public came out and said uh-huh yeah, but if I would call it's the.

A

Same project, I'm thinking of it's because the people didn't want to put their project.

A

Forward because of the opposition to it from the public, not because oh well, wait not well if they.

I

Wouldn't have done that they would have. They could have done that on permitted as well right.

A

So it wasn't because the bca said no, it's, because the people who were going.

A

To put it in there, they heard the voices of the community said, no we're not putting it in yeah.

A

Had nothing to do with it with the conditional permit, I think it had a little bit to do with. I.

B

Mean the less loopholes we have the better off we are. Two percent is two percent. The um I mean.

B

There's a senior living on oklahoma happen to be from a loophole. I mean we're talking a different.

B

Issue but the less loopholes we have, the better we are and the more expectation, management.

B

For the community, the better we are, it doesn't take away.

B

Property owners rights because they're going to purchase a piece of property the way it's you know.

B

Yeah the way it's owned now we're going to upset the legal community with everything here, because.

H

Some of them make a living out of absolutely. I want to put them out of business, I mean, and I say.

B

That from day one, I would love to put all these uh lawyers out of business, so the property owners.

B

Know what they're buying and can do in accordance with what is permitted and zoned.

B

And the community knows what their neighbors and community is going to have around it.

B

You know we seem to every every other day get another argument.

B

From somebody saying well, I didn't know this was allowed here and I'm boarded against.

B

Conservative or conservation in xyz, listen that isn't going to change because you got a p.

I

Or a c here, unless you put people in front of all of these things and it doesn't affect them.

I

You'll never hear from them when it does affect them. You will that's right. So that point is moot.

I

I disagree with that. That's just the way. It goes that putting code and say this is allowed or not.

B

Allowed yeah it's important to put in code and say: well, maybe it's allowed or maybe it's not allowed.

H

You you know: if you put a x there, you know you. When you buy that property, you can't do anything.

H

Other than what it's designated for you have that expectation before you start right. It takes away.

H

A lot of the uh other issues now they're going to still try they're going to go to jay and ask for.

H

All kind of their answers I know and everything, and he has some lead way for some of them.

H

But it's not going to be for a dinosaur park or whatever in that area, and there it is. Oh I'm sorry.

G

And for the record, all the attorneys out there watching. I, like attorneys,.

I

Well, that I tell you what well I'm not going to get into that debate again, but- and I didn't.

I

Jump in into the debate when they were talking about this down there, because I didn't want to I.

I

Didn't want to sway it's a you're on a you're on a thin line down. There is those of you that have sat.

I

On this is a tough zoning decision. I tried not to sway there I'd like to hear what they have.

I

To say so that it comes up here without what commissioner lance said, you know, but I was too.

I

I was um I was going to make that point when it came up here. I had that on my notes that.

I

I I in listen: I've got a religious establishment right now in my district, that I honest to god.

I

Wish was not even remotely possible. Thank you jay for your smirk, because you know exactly what I'm.

I

Talking to you chris and so does weaver. So if, if there wasn't a p here and there was a c there'd, be.

I

Hoops that have to be jumped through who cares? I think it's a good thing to have those extra hoops.

I

Because that engages more people instead of just there, it is it's permitted. Now, let's roll.

I

Well, I wouldn't be. I mean I hate to do that because of property rights, I'm a big property.

I

Rights guy, but they don't have it's not about when you buy it yeah right. It's not that when you.

B

You're not taking away property rights. Well, you are, if you put an x there, no you're, not because.

B

Unless you never trust, they're purchasing a piece of property with an expectation that you can do it.

B

You're not taking away their property rights. Okay! Well, that's, I guess that's true suggest, maybe not.

C

Making those prohibited in those two districts, because when you end up doing now, is forcing.

C

Those types of establishments to be put into higher and better use categories from a financial.

C

Position yeah: there is no religious establishment, it's gonna buy commercial land for religious.

C

They can't afford it, they can't afford the dollar value they're, much more expensive properties.

C

And then we're having those lands now go to a religious establishment that you would want to.

C

Have an income generating property tax generating right now ag is your lowest property tax dollar.

C

Value and if you're using it, they would be the same tax classification, whether it's on.

C

Industrial land or ag land because they would be so that would be a reduction to revenue in.

C

The county so think about all of these things, so, yes, it does protect aglin from the sense of you're.

C

Not putting another type of development on there, but then there's also consequences to be had with.

C

That from the other side, so just be careful. If we make too many things prohibited, then you're using.

C

Land that's more expensive, for they can't afford it number one so you're not going to facilitate.

C

That anymore and then we're also losing out on better higher tax, more tax dollars for the.

C

County coming back yeah so to do the preservation we want to do it absolutely. I agree with that too.

I

That's why I'm trying to reach a happy media? What about, if you put a five-acre designation maximum.

H

On that, for for one like that or three acre or something you mean minimum, be minimum or maximum.

H

No, it would be a minimum five acre or something maximum for he's, saying max from private school.

H

Or whatever people do, there's already a minimum requirement for these uses? What's the minimums jay.

F

It could be anywhere from three to five acres for schools. I think, like it's 10 acres for elementary.

F

15 for middle they're, minimum requirements- they're not maximum right. Theoretically, I guess would set.

F

A maximum limit on it, but what's in the code right now, there are the minimum requirements.

F

What you need for that use so for a church in the ag zoning district, you need a minimum three.

F

Acres, it's not a maximum, that's just the minimum. You can put it on 100 acre farm. If you want to.

F

You need a minimum of three acres, so there's a big difference spent and what the requirement is.

F

Is this is what you need to have to put it on there? If you want to go with conditional uses.

A

You should be looking at day care center, private school religious establishments, because.

A

A nose you can put hours, you can put you know, yeah on all three. I mean an ag in conservation, but the.

A

Other ones assisted living in nursing home. I don't see. What can you do, except for setbacks.

A

Or screening what else is conditional about those two? Those two are already conditional.

D

Also, my question is: what's conditional the amount of beds and things like that, too, the permission.

C

For for the amount of beds that you can have in those facilities, so you can try to limit the size.

A

Yeah, okay, that makes sense, but it creates again this friction between a community and a property.

B

Owner, that's buying a piece of property, it's not about because I don't like you like you, I'm 100.

B

About the property owner's rights- and I'm not anyway, it's away from that, but when somebody's.

B

Buying a piece of property he or she should know this is what I'm allowed or not allowed to do.

B

On that piece of property and the surrounding community should have the wherewithal as well.

B

If they choose to know what is allowed or not allowed on that piece of property.

B

um There's your perfect world scenario. Can I make it well, but I want to make this as perfect a world.

B

As possible in moving forward in preparation for the next master plan, that's why definitions are.

B

The perfect world, and then we create that for the next step when it comes to ag and conservation.

I

um I'm not in favor of any of that industrial, commercial residential, absolutely, but in in ag and.

I

Conservation, I think there has to be a level of scrutiny and if you throw peas on it, there is none.

A

You're right so you're for putting conditional.

A

And ag in conservation absolutely thanks and actually I would say, that's not a bad idea.

B

You're, just creating you know only in those two categories am I most concerned about it because of.

I

What dick is concerned about? I also am concerned about I've heard from the ag community. I've heard.

I

From the folks that live around the ag community and again your perfect world scenario, wonderful.

I

But you'll never get to that point where people engage because they're going to look ahead.

I

They're only going to engage when it directly affects them and then they're going to jump.

I

And property rights are no property rights. I you know, I get it that you you've got a clear thought.

I

Pattern here when you purchase something, but when you're talking about ag and conservation in this.

I

County, where it's limited anyway, and we're rapidly running out of those things there, I truly believe.

I

That there must be levels of scrutiny for folks to be able to get those and do what they are. Looking.

I

To do and listen these these, whatever they are churches, whatever they're cropping up everywhere,.

I

And I use the word cropping up because we're losing what we should be doing with our ag land.

I

And you want to just let it let them do what they want without any scrutiny. That's not exact! That's.

B

Absolutely 100 100, not what I said well, if you're putting a p on all these things, I'm not saying.

B

No, I'm absolutely 100. Okay, I'm not saying that all right. What I'm saying is we need to clearly define.

B

What should be and should not be allowed on these piece of property if we believe that these things.

B

Should not be allowed, then we put an x if we believe that these things should be allowed.

B

In accordance with what the property, the the zoning for these, you know, you know uh religious.

B

Facilities, other things are minimum requirements are then we put a p what the challenge is.

B

When somebody buys a piece of property, he or she should know what they can or cannot do as opposed.

B

To buying a piece of property and then defining well, maybe I'll do this or maybe I'll do that.

B

And keep developing it as, and then the community surrounding it will be like.

B

I don't know what I'm now uh living with with my neighbors. They can do this or they could do that.

B

I mean he is here. I want to hear from jay. You can't see just a general comment about.

F

The uses and when someone's actually- and this is my experience with working through my offices,.

F

When someone's actually buying a specific property, they're calling us and asking us.

F

What what they can and can't do, whether it's principal conditional prohibited or whatever.

F

The big problem I've seen is that when people.

F

Don't look at that if they're buying a house, they generally don't look at.

F

The property around them they're just looking at the house, and they see it as a residential right.

F

They're not looking at the properties next to them to see what can be done on that.

G

And that's where the big problem is because people themselves are not informed of what.

F

Can and can't be done, but if I'm buying that piece of property right then yeah, I'm calling.

F

And I'm checking to see what I can if what I want to do can be done. But, like you say, if they're just.

F

Well, I understand they do the same with an automobile, all kinds of things. Here I mean.

H

They want something so bad, they don't look past that and that's all they think about. That's not.

H

Quite our responsibility here I mean they gotta people have to take personal responsibility for.

H

What they're doing uh I'm looking trying to look long range down the road here of what are we doing.

H

What's our county going to look like what do we want it to look like a hundred years from now.

H

What we do today, you think it doesn't have much impact, but it does for the next few years in the.

H

Next uh time we go master plan, there's another 10 years. All of a sudden. These changes come in we're.

H

We've lost what we like in this county, it's a hard line. I I I just feel that ordinances. If this is.

B

A regulation then may or may not can apply, but ordinances. It should be a should or should not.

B

And it's going to dovetail right into the master plan. If we go into a master plan with we may or.

B

May not be able to do this. It's going to be very difficult to create a very clear master plan.

B

That's going to go out 10 years because the environmental change and again I'm not you- know.

B

Saying that we should or should not do something, I think what I want to try to do is.

B

Clearly, identify what is and is not allowed so, and I can appreciate you wanting the predictability.

K

I'm an engineer so I like black and white type answers right.

K

But I think part of it may be an education for people that ask the question as to what is it.

K

Allowable on this property that a p is yeah uh c means. Yes, you can do it.

K

But they're going to be conditions applied and you're going to have to go through the bca process.

K

So so and then a nexus. No, so really it's not a yes, no and a maybe it's a two yeses and a no but.

K

The one yes has some conditions applied to it, so I think that's part of the education that needs to.

K

Be given to people who are looking at properties, and what can I do on my property and a p is also.

B

Conditions have to be in place, I mean depends on how the p is right right, I mean it's a piece.

B

Of so as long as the conditions are in place for whatever facility is, you know, is there you know.

B

G

See I like that. Yes, I like to see so it eventually and it goes to your point, then it's because you.

I

Said well, they're going to probably get it anyway yeah, but at least they got hoops. They have to jump.

I

Through where it's not just a clark blanche, there you go, you can have it. I like the idea of putting.

A

A seed in all five of these again conservation, so I just think it makes sense and, like you said.

A

But you gotta educate the people who, who ask most don't right, some do but yeah okay. This is what's.

A

Not what and and just because it's conditional doesn't mean it can't happen most likely. It.

A

Will happen yes, but it will be some parameters around it. That's all yeah and you have to let.

A

People know that yeah and, like you said, they'll, go through the extra steps. They'll have a public.

A

Hearing they'll do that people will get a chance to at least express how they feel, but it actually.

A

Makes any difference we'll see, but they get a chance to they do that exercise is their right.

I

To be able to say that, but I I like the way that's described is a, but it needs to be shown this way.

B

What a p and a c and an x mean, and if a p and a c are moving towards a yes, yes, no format, then.

B

That makes sense is conditional, is a yes with these parameters or with certain conditions.

B

That must be applied and approved through the bza process. I get it and that that's fine, I I can.

B

I can appreciate that because again it's yes, she doesn't know.

C

That's pretty cool that explains it or yeah does explain that. Give you a hard time. That's it.

E

Director hine, if someone comes before us wanting conditional use of a private school.

E

On a conservation property, how much involvement does your department have in the review of that.

E

And could you see something that could have a red flag come up and potentially stop it, because all.

E

Three, I think what we're trying to get to is to stop things that shouldn't be there and I'm.

E

Wondering what role your department has of any do? We have any any breaking so to speak if something.

E

Comes up we say: no, we don't want that. We don't you, don't have any don't take that approach. Okay,.

E

Because I was wondering what happens upon review that there is something that we're.

E

Concerned about how does it get stopped? That's all three, I think that's what we want if it.

E

Doesn't truly fit on that piece of property? How does it get stopped well through the building.

F

You're saying by the development, when he figures out to build it than what the value actually is.

F

That's what's going to stop so the free market would work. Government can yes.

B

For every development there are conditions that need to be met as a checklist and if they're met.

B

Then they move to step two and if it's conditional, they move to step two and three through the bza.

B

And, like steve said, the community there's things in place absolutely, but that's! Okay! That's where.

B

The planning and zoning commission is so important and for our participation in that and then also.

B

The bga so again just give you an example of that situation happening up in um union mills.

F

There was a developer who wanted to put a store in up there on a piece of property.

F

And put a what up: store: okay, like a dollar tree or a family dog, a dollar general yeah, and it's.

F

A commercial property, it's only c2 and they were principal use, they could go in and do it.

F

Once they started getting into the property, they found out that hey guess what there's a stream.

F

That runs right down through the middle of the property and it would be prohibitively expensive.

F

To move that stream out of the way they backed out, it got to the point where, for the developer.

F

To stop it, it cost them too much money. It took me, that's usually what stops the project? It's not so.

F

Much right, yeah conditions and the requirements it took, they can't meet them or it costs too much.

F

They're not going to do it. It took me about 12 guys a week to dig that stream. The other way.

B

I mean the hotel in there now that'll get out on the press. Now.

I

What if they sold toy dinosaurs when it's corrupt stops developing no so good? You know.

B

If it is clearly defined in the code and by state law too, the two of you are very proud of.

B

One I wish you would have said that 25 minutes ago, but uh I apologize but to clearly articulate.

B

You know kind of like what chris was sharing that yes, yes, no, I just and I'm not a engineer, I'm a.

B

Special ed teacher by trade, but uh you know the clearly: we can define things the better.

B

Off we are- um and I understand it's not living in a perfect world, but it's giving folks better.

B

Expectations and that's what this is all about: absolutely really good. With the process we have.

B

um So if we are gonna now going back to, uh that is what you said about.

B

Conditional, if we're gonna do this, then why not make these all conditional yeah down the line.

I

Well, they'd have to be yeah for consistency right, so all five uses in both districts. Yes,.

D

That's correct, yes, okay, commissioner wayne was brilliant today, no, not commissioner,.

H

And I expect it to go even higher the pressure on it, so it's almost going to be up to industrial.

H

Levels, one of these days too yeah- it is well they're increasing too. So, as that increases.

I

They're all increasing, so all land is becoming more valuable because land is a scarce commodity.

H

Correct what we're doing is, we've got to be careful with it, and hopefully this helps in a.

I

Little bit of a way to your point, dick it, you know we're not excellent, which is ultimately what you.

I

Should what we could do but see? I don't really want to do that either because, as I said, I'm.

I

All about property right so and I don't necessarily think that a yes could be a yes.

I

I mean, I think, if you get enough pushback and you know not only did the stream get in the way, but.

I

You you saw, the neighbors complained to lie, I mean there was, there was a yes, there was a storm.

I

Coming, ladies and gentlemen, yes, there was so, and I think the storm would have been loud and clear and.

I

The stream would have went over the banks and flooded the whole place, so I I you know, I it.

I

Maybe getting back to the perfect world scenario, I'd ex them.

I

But when it comes to property rights, that's a little bit a little bit over the top. I don't.

H

Know what you're buying when you buy, I know and keep in mind, we'll pay for these type things. We.

I

Will dick, but but on the on the back side of your argument is the fact that those that are currently.

I

uh Doing farming there can't find anybody that wants to do farming there any longer.

I

So then they're jammed and that's the issue. Well, I think in a lot, in some cases.

I

It is depends where you are leads. The solar fields too, which also eats up the farming land.

E

But you made a very good point about that. Well, I you know it just you saw the light on somewhere.

E

You saw the light on solar. Well, the point is, you know the more solar fields we have on agricultural.

E

Land, the less farming we're doing so it's a catch-22 and then you have farmers that don't.

E

Have a next generation wants to take over farming and they want to have some sort of subsidy, and I.

E

Face that in my district a farmer wants to have solar fields gets the zoning puts them in and.

E

All the neighbors are complaining well they're, not there helping that farmer try to survive.

E

He's trying to do what he needs to survive and they're all my constituents. Those farms are.

H

To other alternatives say that again, most of them are sold to another farm. In this.

I

Area they are so far. Most of them all want to back into that area. Larger farm buys are out.

I

We're lucky we have a certain entity of folks that are still buying those here.

I

But if we didn't have that entity- and you know what I'm talking about.

I

Yeah, I think we'd be seeing a lot more of these disappear for good talking about the.

E

Horse and buggy buyers or yeah, then they're good business people yeah anyway, all right next.

E

Thank you dennis. I guess that's going to be the as far as that's going to go slaughterhouse.

G

And cmx these two on your page, you can put an accent so on the um we're on the last page of.

D

Just the follow-up from last time should slaughterhouses be allowed by conditional use in.

D

The ag district- and that is what was proposed by staff and by planning commission, and that is the.

D

Current case, but I think there was the question of why- and I also did want to verify that it was not.

D

A mistake on my part that it did say conditional use and it's it's remaining conditional primarily.

D

Because of its relationship to ag uses, it is also subject to a 600 foot separation requirement from.

D

Adjacent residential properties, um the use is newly defined and differentiated from livestock.

D

Incineration, which is accessory to a farm, so we cleaned up the use. We didn't change how it's.

D

Regulated but we made sure that it's clear what it is and what it is not when it's um being done.

E

Jay is that 600 foot a a standard where does that come from it was set by the planning commission.

F

When the code was really originally established, right that one's exactly where that 600 came from.

F

Or well, let me correct that the 600 comes from. We have a 200 foot requirement for most agricultural.

F

Uses are so much larger slaughterhouses. It's larger! It's 600 feet. It's a little bit more.

E

Offensive process where that actual distance came from, I have no idea who originally we have.

D

But then, as staff and planning commission and then when we did the industrial code with you all.

D

um It went used by use and depending on the impact on the adjacent residential neighborhood, they were.

D

Those um uh distances were set either 200 400 600, I think, uh goes up to a thousand. So there.

D

Wasn't I'm going to say there wasn't a science to it, but it's basically, you can see for each.

D

Category of use there are similar uses in how they impact the residuals. It wasn't arbitrary.

E

It was a thought process, definitely a thought process. Yeah. It comes from the speed of smell.

K

Yeah exactly yeah interesting. No, I like that. Thank you yeah. I actually had one of those too.

I

In my district that it was assumed, did you remember that one which one was on old tawny, town.

I

Jay tom was still here because tom got involved.

G

But there was a distinct odor coming from across the road. Yes, and it was.

I

Assumed that they were slaughtering animals over there correct and it turned out to be.

I

uh The um byproduct of brewing beer, oh okay, that they were spreading on their fields for fertilizer.

I

But it had a stench that was unbelievable and you think about drinking beer. I don't.

I

Know so, anyway, marston's the same way, there was a farmer down there who was using industrial waste.

F

That was biodegradable as a fertilizer and spreading on its field, and that was the worst.

F

Smell I've ever smelled yeah. It was especially when it's fresh. I heard a lot about that run.

E

Overall, there's a lot more regulations on that now than it was just a couple years.

H

Ago, that's good too yeah. Okay, I can't imagine anybody opening up a slaughterhouse these days.

I

But whatever talk about hoops, but you know: okay, okay, the last follow-up issue was just.

D

A question we have retreat facilities that are um conditional uses of conditional use in both the ag.

D

And the conservation, I believe- and the question came up- are there any in the county? So there's two.

D

In the conservation district currently and four in the ag district- and I honestly don't remember.

D

Why the I think it was just a question that was asked. I don't think there was consideration to.

D

Changing it, what are retreat facilities one more time um it's in here it is defined age, something.

D

And what linda has pulled up is we're going to get to that there's specific regulations.

D

For it um and that'll be the next, it's really the next set of things that we're going to review so.

D

um That finishes up bringing back to you any answers to questions you had.

D

We went through all the accessory uses. um What you'll see on pages? um Oh I'm 34.

D

I'm sorry is the bulk requirements which, as you'll remember, is area yards a lot with.

D

In going through this, both staff and planning commission, we really didn't see any.

D

Existing problems or need to change any of these, with the exception of we have.

D

Recommended changing the elementary middle and high school lot areas to conform with the state.

D

Requirements for public schools, which is 15 acres for elementary 20 for middle and.

D

40 for high- and that is only in the ag and conservation districts that wouldn't affect.

D

The other districts like residential, where they're also allowed that's really just for consistency,.

D

um No one has any questions about that. The next few pages are really just clean up to other.

D

Sections of the code to make it consistent with some of what we've done in this part of the code.

D

So I'm going to jump right to the specific uses section which is on page 42.

D

Okay, um the first thing we have not really taken out temporary and seasonal uses. You.

D

May recall two meetings ago, we just put those in a different place in the code, so they're up front.

D

In their entirety, as written, so really the first new thing you'll be looking at here and.

D

This is fair grounds, racetracks and courses. This is conditional in the ag and prohibited in the.

D

Conservation district- these are not as with most of these, these are not new requirements. These.

D

Are relocated from other sections of the code where they were? They were in the ag section or.

D

They were in the conservation section, so this is putting them all in one place. The only changes we.

D

Have made is where we cleaned them up a little bit and if they were referencing sections that.

D

Don't exist anymore. We obviously cleaned that up so for fairgrounds, racetracks and courses.

D

They're conditional in the ag not allowed in the conservation- and there are these.

D

I guess there's just this one: um a which is 43 in the top of page 44 and that's existing.

D

So the next use is 158 162 and that's live stale live stock sales yards and buildings. That is.

D

Defined and livestock is defined, so it's clear what that use is that's conditional in the ag.

D

And prohibited in conservation, these are existing regulations for it that it has to be on at least.

D

10 acres and the front yard has to be 400 feet again, since it's existing, I'm not sure where.

D

Either of those um specific regulations came from, but we have not recommended any changes to them.

K

Is there a need to have to state their conditional use in the egg, or is that in.

K

The use table um the reason to do it is because this section applies to all the districts and.

D

If somebody has this in another, I believe this use might be allowed in industrial as well. So in.

D

For certain uses where we would only want these regulations to apply in the ag and not necessarily.

D

In another zone, that's why it's specifically said it's also. I think it might be a little redundant.

D

But it's also possibly clearer to the person looking it up, so you don't have to flip back.

C

And forth um bed and breakfast same thing that is conditional in both the ag and conservation.

D

And these are all existing requirements. um I think, with the exception of a couple of clean up words,.

D

Or something, but it's all um existing requirements. um We just mentioned retreat facility. As we said.

D

There's, I guess six in the county. Currently it's conditional in both ag and conservation and these.

D

Are existing requirements on this? The one thing we did add was for e in the ag district. What.

D

Existed such you shall be designed to preserve the maximum amount of land for agricultural purposes.

D

And then we added f, this was actually at chris's request in the conservation district. Such you.

D

Shall be designed to preserve the maximum amount of conservation features, sort of a similar.

D

Similar to e, but for the conservation district is there an a that disappeared.

K

The first item is b or is that a I think, the a didn't get the parentheses yeah we'll fix that.

C

Just no actually, I will check either the a disappeared and I'll check, or it should just be a.

D

B c, d e. So great, thank you for catching that. Thank you because I think that the way it's written is.

K

Provided that and then right so no either it wasn't numbered. Sometimes when I changed the.

B

Numbers they do it automatically right. There's no b, there's there's a b c d e f, there's no.

D

No they're, oh, I see that so that b should be the a got it. I think the first line. Let me make.

D

Sure that it didn't drop in a that was another requirement. Thanks chris, I see what you're doing.

D

um For rubble, landfills, this is conditional in the ag and prohibited in conservation.

D

And these are all existing requirements for rubble landfills and they have been.

D

For a lot of years again, I believe this was cleaned up to take out some sections.

D

That are not part of the code anymore.

D

um The next one, 158 166 commercial wood processing that you may recall, is newly.

D

Defined it is not the accessory use of producing mulch, but it's a principle. It's a principal use.

D

It is not a commercial sawmill which is in the industrial and all these regulations.

D

That you see used to exist when it was called production of mulch. Since it's been redefined.

D

It's been located here. These are all I believe, yep. These are all existing requirements.

D

D

um 158 167 agricultural research laboratory in the agricultural district. That's again specifying.

D

There, because that would also be allowed in the industrial district, and we want to make clear.

D

These regulations are only for the agricultural district. These are existing regulations, um farm.

D

Alcohol producer- I think we talked a little bit about this. This was done about four years ago, a.

D

Lot of thought given to it a lot of pretty much to every word of it. It was very well crafted.

D

So there were no changes made to this. It's just a relocation from the ag section which takes us.

D

All the way to page, unless you have any questions unless you want to revisit any of these, I'm moving.

D

Quickly and if you want to revisit any of these I'd, be happy to stop uh the only question I have.

I

D

Tours and tastings yeah.

I

And the number specifically number three: I guess this food arrives at the establishment ready.

I

For service or an estate generally ready for consumption, so in other words, a facility can't.

I

Make something you can't have a kitchen no, and that was I I I didn't had that up at all. So chris.

D

Or jay might want to jump in um brenda denny with the um eac.

I

Well, it could be, but I know that there are.

I

Or what is this winery too, or is this just farm.

F

Okay, because because there's I mean, I guess, they'll be grandfathered.

D

No, this isn't new. This is the existing language. This thing, okay, yeah and that was.

I

That was the intent. I do remember that I just don't know, there's two wineries that are.

I

Manufacturing food right now they do, but they were approved prior to these regulations. Oh.

F

The ones that have existing food, they're, cooking on-site and everything there were.

F

State requirements with their license, and they were all approved prior to this, going into effect.

F

Okay, I just want to make sure, because you might get into the well they're doing it. Why can't I.

I

Scenario, I already have, I know, just bringing it out in public jay. I already know that. Okay, all.

I

Right, that's fine! As long as it's you know, that's fine! I don't want to go against anything. That's.

I

Been established by whoever that's good, okay, okay um on page 49, 158 169, this is existing language.

D

Golf courses conditional in both districts um there was discussion at the plantation.

G

It's in the middle.

D

Wait matt's coming hey matt crawl over here we have technical difficulties.

C

C

Greg's loving this right now.

D

We need to put your mic restriction yeah. I love that, um so the planning commission.

D

Did discuss golf courses not allowing it in the conservation district, but there's currently two in.

D

The conservation district, so they are recommending that it be allowed by conditional use- and this is.

D

One of when we talked about conditional uses- this is one of the um times that would give guidance.

D

To the um bza and on what to look at so in this particular case, it would have to have a site plan.

D

Review which under chapter 155 and the filing of a professionally prepared environmental impact plan.

D

Demonstrating how use maintenance and activities will be conducted and operated so as to not.

D

Adversely affect the natural resources and comply with the water resources, protection standards.

D

As may may be adopted by the county, and we need to delete in the water resources manual because.

D

You are deleting the water resources manual, no, that stays in yeah, yeah, okay, okay, so that.

D

Would give guidance in the approval of that um 158 170 storage lot for commercial vehicles in.

D

The ag district this is currently conditional in the ag district not allowed in conservation.

D

And, as you can see, this is existing language. That gives guidance regarding that for the bza.

D

Commercial camping area- this is, we talked a little bit about this when.

D

We talked about agritourism. This is any time you're doing more than one campsite.

D

These are all existing regulations, there's only one in the county currently um chris and his team.

D

Looked at this and saw no need to change any of these at this point, but so this is, this is.

D

As existing and the one is in compliance with this, I or was approved in compliance with this.

D

um 158 172 research laboratories conducting bioscience research. This is conditional in.

D

The ag district and has um a through e again all existing with a little bit of cleanup on.

D

There's a classification change or something like that, but it's just to modernize it. Okay,.

D

um The last two there was a little bit of a change because both of these issue.

D

Issues contractors, equipment, storage as well as commercial kennels, were of interest.

D

Both to the ag work group and to the bza, so what you see here is the two new conditions.

D

For contractors, equipment storage again only in the ag district, because you wouldn't want it to.

D

Apply to the commercial districts as well, so the existing one is that it shall be the area within.

D

Which the use is located shall be no more than one acre in size, but what is new is the minimum.

D

Area of the property on which the use is located shall be five acres. Minimum so b is new.

D

B is new correct, and that is I think, because they there was a lot of variances being.

D

Requested because they were just locating on two small properties, quite a few small contractors.

F

Winning it on their property two and a half three four acres. Can you have uh multiple storage.

B

In properties, if the properties are large enough, if your property's large enough, you.

F

Can have multiple contractors putting store charge on it, because there's no number limiting.

F

The number of them that's the same way with assisted living feelings, there's quite one.

F

Remainder, there's no number actually limiting the number that you could have. So someone could argue.

F

Haven't had the argument, but someone could argue that I have a contractor's equipment, storage. Your.

F

Company b over here and company c, I have one over here for them on the same property, yep.

F

That's a possibility, but again those are conditional uses, so those would go through.

D

The bca yeah, but they'd have but again they'd be approved. I mean if they meet the conditions.

B

If they meet the requirements, they would be approved. If somebody has a large piece of.

B

Property they can rent out space to somebody. There are people doing that yeah jay. Would you interpret.

D

This for b to mean each one of those contractors equipment, storage areas, needs a separate five.

D

Acres, I think that was our intent in writing. It, I think, that's the intent, so we would maybe need to.

D

Clarify that for each use, instead of on which they use and be even more clear about that. Yes,.

C

I guess I didn't realize that either kind of you know one of those things you know. I thought one.

D

Somebody brings it in right now, so I think we should definitely yeah narrow that down. Okay,.

D

um And then the last just of suggestion, maybe to clarify that where you have.

K

Which the use in both a and b, if you changed, b to each so the area within.

G

Which each use is located shall be no more than and then the same thing for the five acres. Oh.

D

You mean for both a and b right, okay, yep, that they have to be no more than one acre and each.

C

Individual has to have at least five acres, so to do three, you need 15 acres, let's just say: yeah.

C

Yeah and each one can give you more than one acre right right, you're right that would do it.

D

um And again that one has to be 600 feet: separation from residential property, so.

D

That's another protection, you don't see it here, but that's in 0, 40, 15804 and then the last one is.

D

Commercial kennels in the ag and conservation districts there's been a lot of these lately.

D

This recommendation, I believe, came out of the work group. This was one of them that came out.

D

So the minimum area for a commercial kennel for 10 dogs or fewer she'll be five acres.

D

And for more than ten dogs, she'll be 10 acres, so the differentiation by acreage for the number of.

D

Dogs also- and it's not in this section but again in the separation requirements. Oh it is their c.

D

um The distance requirements for 10 or fewer dogs is 200 for more than that is 400.. Just so there's.

F

No confusion amongst everybody, someone who says a doggy daycare, that's the same as a commercial.

E

Now does this apply to the catteries you mentioned earlier? Is that they're the same so someone had.

E

A category it's the same as a camera requirements same the same amount of cats is equal to dogs. Okay,.

F

Though you dig here's the same, it's a commercial kennel by our definition. It includes keeping the.

F

Dogs on a daily or overnight basis, so that's why I just throw it like a doggy.

F

Daycare into that category, because you're being paid to keep somebody else's dog right.

E

There seems to be a higher demand for this too. A lot of people traveling with work quite.

F

Important there's a market for it; okay, so that completes the initial review of 158.

D

um This is these: are the changes to chapter 155, which is next on the agenda? These are all.

D

I would consider all of these clean up the change to attached accessory dwelling that you see there.

D

That is to make it consistent with what we did in 158, um linda, if you don't mind scrolling down.

D

The change in those numbers are to reference new sections that were changed.

D

The one I do want to point out to you, though, is regarding cluster subdivisions. You had a really.

D

Lengthy discussion last december about that, as it um related to the residential districts.

D

This makes the regulation for the conservation district for cluster identical to residential.

D

Meaning you don't any longer have to submit a conventional plan for review by the.

C

Commission planning, commission and all the departments involved, and it's just based on.

D

The um right you submit the cluster right. Yes, that was to get the density calculations, so instead we.

C

Can just calculate it mathematically instead of having to do two separate plans, so the lawyers.

E

Are to make less money someone's making less the engineers, um but this was what you did for.

D

The residential- and it only wasn't done because we weren't in that section and we wanted to wait.

D

Until we did conservation consistent and that's really all there is for chapter 155 changes. Those.

D

Are pretty technical changes? Good well, I'll, just remind everybody that we're also going through.

K

In a parallel process, administrative changes in chapter 155 from my department and so the intent.

K

Is is that, when we're ready to adopt those changes, and these changes we're going to be coordinating.

K

And making sure that everything is consistent and they all get adopted at the same time,.

E

Thank you, okay, so.

D

I'm going to jump to you have a letter from shaffer and shaffer with a request regarding this.

D

um Text amendment and I'm just going to explain it to you in a nutshell and then turn it over to jay.

D

To give you his opinion about the request, yes, the request is basically regarding. If one has a.

D

Property and there's an adjacent property sharing a property line owned by the same property owner.

D

Because of the definition of accessory use, they cannot put the property owner of the residence.

D

Or the farmer or whatever it is, cannot put an accessory use on the adjacent property because.

D

It's defined in case law as well as our code is everywhere else that it has to be on the same lot.

D

So um shaffer has um asked that we change that in some ways: she's, given a couple different options.

D

So that somebody in that situation would be able to use their adjacent.

D

Lot that they also own for their accessory use and the language that she gave is.

D

Personal use, storage on a parcel or lot contiguous to a principal use.

D

On a separate parcel, if both parcels or lots are under common ownership,.

D

um I told her, I would bring this before you, but I know jay has some comments. He wants to.

D

Give you about this request. Basically, what this is when we had a gentleman come to us.

F

I want to put a 30 by 40 storage building on a separate lot that he owns, which is adjoining.

F

His residence on a separate lot and he wanted to use it for his personal equipment. He would ask.

G

I denied it because in that case, that storage building would be an accessory used to a residence.

F

And you need to have that principal use before you can have an accessory used.

F

So without having a residence on that second lot, he couldn't have a building on there.

F

If something like this was passed, some of the problems would be in the future. We know we have.

F

No way of knowing, if that property's ever sold, so therefore it becomes under two different.

F

Ownership, so it doesn't meet the requirements anymore and it's we wouldn't know if somebody.

F

Would be storing commercial equipment in there or something like that? It becomes a problem of.

F

Identification, what it's being used for and like say it doesn't meet our definition for accessory.

F

Because there's no principal use on the property, there are ways to solve the issue.

F

You can combine the two lots to create one lot and then the storage building becomes accessory to the.

F

Residents, you could do that it might cost you some money, but you could do it. One of the consequences.

F

Of that is that you, you lose the ability to sell that second line and second lot disappears.

F

So basically, if something like this was passed, you're.

F

Giving somebody the opportunity to have it both ways and it's. It would be a real problem.

F

Proving something like that, especially if you made it into principal use or something then.

F

It applied every empty lot in the county almost when it was when it was mentioned.

E

Casel is that judicial case or administrative case law? I'm not sure about that judicial case.

E

There's nothing we can do and I'd find it a big leap for him to ask us to overcome.

E

That at their level, there's no way we can do anything to overcome judicial case law.

D

I'm not I'm not sure yeah, I'm positive about it, but it's in our code that it's part of the.

D

Definition- and you would never want to- I don't think you would want to change the definition of accessory used to saying not on the same lot, because you've opened up a giant.

F

Accessory that would open up so take away what I said about case line. Just I I would say the bigger.

D

Thing would be to focus on what our definition and our practice of accessory use has always been.

K

Jay could could they potentially move that property line, yes to increase the size of.

K

The economy where they want the accept, that's it and then they would not lose the second law.

F

Well, if the law was passed, allowing it yes, but if they no, no, no, no! No! No! No! No! I'm just saying that.

F

You trigger a lot then. Yes, so then you've got the space to put the accessory use on.

K

That same property and you're not losing the second lot so there's times. I think.

K

There are ways to accomplish what people want to do without the law being changed.

C

And chris were our thoughts as well, so we are 100 supportive of making no changes.

C

Because there's other ways to remedy this issue, this is self-imposed.

F

Good all right, okay, um the last thing on the agenda is well not the last.

D

Is a discussion of ag remaining portions? This came up last time and we told you we'd bring you back.

D

Some more information and what we've provided is a map show. There was a discussion about.

D

Differentiating between um remaining portions within and outside the growth areas.

D

um And this map shows that, for you I don't know linda. If you wanted to go through, there was a.

D

Presentation given several weeks ago regarding this right, so we you know whenever, where all.

C

The remaining portions are in the county. This map demonstrates, in the gray all of the.

C

Remaining portions in the county and then the ones that are not just strictly farmland, they are.

C

Other types of uses, so in our agriculture remaining portions, we have three schools: five.

C

Religious establishments, five assisted livings, two wreck uses and one airport.

C

So then, breaking it down further on this map, these are regardless of the type. These are all the.

C

Remaining portions, as you can see, in the freedom area, they're split between everything west of 32.

C

And then kind of evenly distributed with some on the north of 26 and south of 97 and then there's.

C

A few outside of the tiny town, corporate limits and their municipal growth area as.

C

Well, as one just outside of new windsor, those are agriculture remaining portions under the county's.

C

Definition of that, so I guess the decision is. There was some discussion about what to.

C

Do with ag remainders in general and then should there be any changes within the growth area um to.

C

Allow more development on these ag remaining portions, so these are yeah.

H

Properties have already taken off their lots or whatever they've already had it by the gap.

H

Now they come back for two or three others to go back and change it. Prime example in your district.

H

You have a driving range, you know that remainder and you had a church from that remaining same.

H

Magnet then, you had music events putting on the same ag remainder and if you look at bza cases.

H

This is where all the problems occur for many of them, because of all the things that go on to that.

H

Ag remainder at this point and there's several things I believe to happen here: number one in the.

H

Growth areas: okay, an ag remainder- is there it's in a growth area. Let these things remain on those, but.

H

In the outlying areas that are not growth areas, we need to limit what goes on to there to keep the.

H

Character of the community at that point so that ag remainder you've had your if you're in a growth.

H

Area you know things are going to change, but otherwise you've already taken your development.

H

Right, you've already taken your rights off of it. Now you want more and that's where this comes in.

H

See what I was proposing in this whole thing in the growth areas: okay, we'll leave them in.

H

There we know these areas are going to change for the rest of the county. We eliminate most of the.

H

Conditional uses the we can't do solo take that off. That's got to be part of it, but.

B

You know my focus is that you know we're trying to get as much out of the growth areas as we can.

B

To keep the integrity of the entire county, and you know an example when we did the zoning for.

B

The bd and the disabled property, we lessened the density. You know, therefore, we lessened the growth.

B

In that disney growth area, if we loosen up the ag remainders in the disney growth area, especially.

B

Down in freedom uh district, we will allow for that additional growth. I mean it's not going to be.

B

Massive, but it's going to be something um because you have some money yeah. I know your ag remainder.

B

Oh yeah, no, I get you but but you know, if you look, you know what this map that linda's shared.

B

We're looking at a handful of remainders in municipalities,.

B

Or the designated growth here's like so I'm talking about lessening the restrictions.

B

Fair unfair, um I think it meets the intent of where we want to grow the county and where we.

B

Want to maintain the county, that's where I kind of fall on this when it comes to ag remainders.

B

Yeah, so can you define what you mean by that? I guess I'm confused by lessening the restrictions.

B

Giving uh lot rights um on those remainders giving them back residential lot rights, so I don't think.

C

And I would actually want to talk to uh tim on that and jay. You may have a suggestion on this.

C

I would offer them let's resend the property to what it should be. Rezoned.

C

If we change and give them more lot rights, then we're changing the allowable densities for axoning.

C

Because that's essentially what it is, they've taken everything off the ag zone. I don't know if.

C

We can give them more rights that they don't have under the zoning, because they've already used them.

C

Also, I would want to investigate more and caution that so we have tear septic tiers.

C

They might have already gotten all their bites out of the apple under the tears legislation.

C

Because property had to be subdivided prior to 2012 to get your major subdivision right now. You.

C

Can only do seven lots if they've already taken their major subdivision. They can't subdivide these.

C

Ag remaining portions anyway beyond seven, so I think the more appropriate way to move forward.

C

Is, instead of changing how ag remainders work look to rezone the property to our 40 000, then or.

C

Conservation or something like that- and we allow for that now to do that. But this would have to be.

C

Done in that comprehensive manner, so you know the the most appropriate way to go about this. If we're.

C

Talking about the freedom area specifically is to open up the freedom, comprehensive plan.

C

Change those from ag zoning to our aglan used to a our you know, low density, residential ag use and.

C

Then go through the comprehensive rezoning process. That's the intent as opposed to changing, because.

C

Then you're changing really the definition of what an agreement is. I don't know if we can give lot rates that aren't there to give, because it's not the zoning for it. um It's a whole can.

C

Of worms to do to do that approach, so you know what I'm identifying a problem: I'm identifying.

B

Well, the situation, thinking of a solution if there is a better solution.

B

The way you're describing it that meets you know those needs I'm for it I mean I'm president.

B

Absolutely not absolutely you can go back in and go through minor subdivision on that same property.

C

They've already taken all of their subdivision rights. All the rights are that's what it.

C

That's what it means it is the remaining portion. So when they so say you have one.

C

One unit for 20 acres right and you have 100 acre lot right. You get five units and, under our rural.

C

Subdivision you get five one acre lots that gives you the remaining 80 acres for your ag. Remainder.

C

You can't go back and subdivide that unless you change the zoning, what you can do and what we.

C

Currently are allow are all those other uses that are these: the schools, the religious establishment.

C

The assisted living the wreck uses, and you can do those almost in an unlimited fashion. So what we.

C

Were bringing to you all as one of the proposals is, if we and look we don't have an issue with it,.

C

Right now, I I feel that the numbers aren't that high they're 17 across the county that are being.

C

Used for non-agricultural purposes as a remainder. But if the idea is to cut that off to not have an.

C

Issue in the futures, then perhaps either don't allow them to be utilized for anything else.

C

You could even establish some type of purchase and retirement program like other jurisdictions.

C

Do for ag remaining portions to extinguish all development rights from them in a.

C

Different type of manner, or you could limit how many you have so maybe you.

C

Ten acres, you get one, you have 20 acres remaining, you can have two and maybe.

C

Up to three of the various types of uses that would be allowed to be broken off an ag remainder.

H

One in the county: now they were a remainder. They just went through subdivision to put a couple more.

C

Houses on them, they might have been still had lot rates on that remaining portion. Maybe they didn't.

C

Use all of them- and I don't want to talk the nuance- I don't know each is unique. So there might.

C

Have been other multi-deed parcels and things like that, but no one's, that's the whole definition of.

C

It once it's done, it's done for the residential portion. Unless you rezone now, you can rezone to.

C

R40, let's just say, or even conservation and get more units, however, with septic tiers legislation.

C

If they've already extinguished their lot rights from the tears perspective, I don't even know if.

C

That would be a remedy where there's not water and sewer. So I don't even know if we could do.

C

That, anyway, and that's just very nuanced and something we'd have to we haven't, dug into.

B

But they could also go septic and well no, that's what I'm saying. No, then they'd only be allowed.

D

Seven, no even they may not they've, already made it taken theirselves. Oh that's what I'm saying.

D

They've subdivided after 2012, especially they've, already taken their seven.

C

So I I I would suggest this is a very much a comprehensive process that we would have to really.

C

Figure out the lay of the land you know and and then my suggestion would be, if that's where we're.

C

Headed then, maybe we really do need to look at adopting tears legislation where we have the the.

C

Tier three, which does allow for major subdivisions beyond seven to meet our whatever the base. Zoning.

C

Is on while in septic, but it's we have to get that approved through the state work with them to get.

C

That approval and then it's a whole nother okay process. Could we look at those other jurisdictions.

H

What to do some of the other counties and their possibilities? What you were mentioning for.

H

uh As far as subdivision and things you mentioned a few minutes ago, what.

H

Would other counties do on them? Northern baltimore county, I know, doesn't allow it.

H

Any longer and some of the others just what do they do? I don't know it'd be nice to know.

B

I mean again the the issue for me is looking at the amount. That's in the freedom district.

B

And how to best use that property and if we can get more out of it and getting more out of it,.

B

Means new zoning, then it's rezoning, I thought of high remainder, just allowances, but if that.

B

Creates more of a problem, then? What do we do with the remaining remainders throughout the county? We.

H

Keep them as remainders, we keep them, we want more ag, so we keep them and we, I think chris, you said.

H

Jp had some program, they could keep those yeah. So um one of the changes that we've been discussing.

K

With the ag preservation board is to start looking at ag remainders for preservation.

K

Typically, we we have not even looked at them because and again they don't have any residential.

H

Remainder right, however, we recognize that there is development potential there and so, by putting.

K

Them into preservation we're preventing that additional development. Also, zoning can change so.

K

Right now it's an ag remainder and no residential development, but if the zoning changes.

K

Maybe they get some more residential development, and so there is benefit to putting them into the.

K

Program, however, the valuation of them, which is based on what their development potential.

K

Is greatly reduced, so what we're doing is we're we're allowing people to apply to the program.

K

We're waiting until um every quarter, we look at what other farms have come, have applied and.

K

We take care of the the ones that have residential potential first bring those to the ag preservation.

K

Board first, but now we've got a couple that have come in that are ag remainders and we're going.

K

To be taking those to the board to to discuss whether we want to go ahead and and process.

K

These, because there is, there is development potential, just not residential development.

H

Yeah you're saying there is development potential yeah. Basically, there's not no, no residential.

C

So the example here that is, the development potential still up, so what we would.

C

Be talking about is like a purchase and retirement program so that you're retiring.

C

The entire parcel from any future development and and putting that in perpetuity.

C

At a reduced rate because you've already taken the residential value off, but there's still value in.

C

Doing these you still sell them. There's still, you know money to be had outside of farming and.

K

There are other criteria that also that we're applying so we're not taking small five acre.

K

Remaining portions right, where there's uh it has to be at least 50 acres, or it needs to be.

K

Contiguous to another preserved farm and and those were applying different criteria to make sure that.

K

It's appropriate to be in the eye preservation program, but we are starting to consider those.

K

Yeah, I think it's great, I think it's honestly, almost the only way, but the only way we're.

B

Going to get to the goal right, you know and there is value on these properties. So that's.

H

A good solution, especially if we restrict some of the other additional uses on those properties.

B

I don't want to talk about traditional uses anymore, but.

B

I I do want to follow up on rezoning opportunities and and come up with a you know, a path forward.

B

On rezoning ag remainders within designated growth areas.

B

I think it's a good idea, and can we restrict some of the other uses in the outlying areas, though.

B

Well, I think they already are, I mean, aren't they? No, no! That's what we're saying so. I think.

C

What, if I may clarify what's being proposed by commissioner weaver, is.

C

Having what we currently have now remain in the growth areas and potentially look teresa.

C

Part of what you said, commissioner, ralstein for these and see what potential there is.

C

There, okay, so that's one thing, but then out in the areas outside the designated growth areas.

C

Look at limiting how many of these non-residential non-agricultural uses are permitted on these ag.

C

Remaining portions, so that goes to some options that we had laid out through consideration.

C

Is recommend uh limiting the number of allowed uses on a single remaining portion.

C

So you can limit the acreage, so one use for every 10 acres, because right now it's unlimited.

C

It can go on until you've, almost kind of eaten up the remaining portion with non-ag uses.

C

um Limit the number of different uses, so you could have two or three on a particular property.

C

And maybe there's a size limitation um or limit the number of same uses. So an example of this.

C

Would be one that we just saw planning commission the herd property were there, but five different.

C

Buildings on the on an ag remaining portion- that's assisted living. Maybe if there was a.

C

Limitation, the max it could have gotten us two, not the carrying capacity of the land. Let's just say.

C

um So those are some options for consideration the other option and I I hesitate to throw it.

K

Out there, but if you pull out the pull up the use table, you could have a separate use.

K

Table for jay's going to kill, you drag remainders barry's, shooting daggers at me for the rides.

E

Don't hit you with a shoe, I'm just sitting thrown out there, and I hear what you're saying.

A

The um that are up there I like to limit by acreage. I think that's a good way to do it.

A

Just my opinion, I agree yeah because, if not everything everything yeah.

H

I said the three options that are up there. I like to limit the uses by acreage yeah like what linda.

A

Said one: what was up there? One use every 10, acres or whatever, but something like that.

A

So it's spelled out that way. You can't get four or five different uses on a 15, acre property.

H

That makes a lot of sense. I would like to see that maybe 15 or 20 acres, but that would be.

H

That would limit it. What most of the remainders aren't that large, even though.

A

Yeah, I know I think 10 acres probably limited greatly, because the remainders aren't that large.

A

To begin with, well, we have some some of them yeah, but yeah, but most of them. That's what I.

A

Really, I don't know what you can say about 20 acres, then, when you use for every 20 acres that.

K

Solves the problem that would make it consistent with the solar yeah. That's right! If you're going.

H

20 years, if you're less than 20 acres, can you use it for something? No, it is a remainder. 20 would be.

F

Oh, it's interesting. If you don't have the 20s.

I

If you don't have acres, can you use it? No, no! I don't well. I don't like that.

B

According to, if we make it.

F

Acres, it's still, I think, if you're eliminate the one use to a maximum of 20 acres.

F

If it's under 20 acres, then you could use that one use. Okay, the way you just said that to a.

A

Maximum of 28 years, yes, it's different, yeah yeah. You need a minimum right right, yeah, right right,.

A

Yeah, because that way, you have value for the smaller smaller ag remainders and they could.

G

Go into the program because if you don't have any value for it, we're not giving you money for.

A

It yeah because it's not worth anything legal format or sustainable agriculture. It has to be.

H

Based on the minimum, wage for uh solar is 20 acres; uh no, the maximum bathroom five acres, five.

C

Acres: five acres, minimum twenty yeah yeah, that's just for community solar, not for a larger scale,.

C

So what we can do for our next time is have clean copy of where everything was agreed upon for today.

C

And then come back with a proposal regarding this from based on the discussion for you all to chew.

C

On and maybe we I don't want to promise it early to send it up for you to review.

C

I'd like to say yes, but we want to do a little more investigation.

C

Yeah correct in total ag remainders in the county, how many acres and, what's on here.

E

Get out the dots um so there's a thousand seventeen remaining portions in the county.

C

On 23 956 acres and of that only 1.57 of them are these non-residential non-ag.

C

Uses the schools, the churches, the golf courses, whatever you want to have yeah.

B

But there's potential through things there could be potential for them. I mean I'm just because all.

B

I'm saying is of that 24 000 acres, how many of that is eligible to be looked at for preservation.

K

That I don't know off the top of my head, you know, but let's just say it's, you know: 12 000 acres. You.

B

Know because of the size of the properties, that's a big chunk that we haven't been looking at right.

B

So, if that's something you're doing now, yes, that's, I think, very valuable. You know to get to our goals.

B

This was good, appreciate it absolutely um so yeah. So then, we'll be down to the final stretch.

C

Next thursday- and we have time scheduled same bat time same bat place one yeah, that's right.

E

I

Initially conditionally, I would like to bring now. I do need a motion to adjourn so move. Second,.

B

Second, all in favor, aye, aye.

I