Carroll County, MD Board of County Commissioners Open Sessions, 14 Jan 2021

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From YouTube: Board of Carroll County Commissioners Open Session Afternoon January 14, 2021

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https://www.carrollcountymd.gov/government/commissioners/board-of-carroll-county-commissioners-weekly-agenda/

A

Okay, good afternoon I apologize it is 1303 starting a few minutes uh late, but.

A

Let's open this session, I get to hit commissioner weaver in the head, and uh first up is uh mark.

A

Ripper, let's talk about a grant application for broadband. Sure commission can everybody hear me.

B

Yes, okay, very good. Okay! um I've come before you today um had to come at the last minute, because.

B

We just received this application. Yesterday, um two weeks ago I was before the board uh with two.

B

Of these grant opportunities from comcast, um I am happy at the time I did not know whether.

B

Comcast was going to admit or not. I am happy to report that I got an email from them today saying.

B

They are committing to both of those projects, so those applications will go in and we had another.

B

One of our businesses in carroll county quantum internet um has decided to file for an application.

B

And that is what I'm before you here today, we are requesting the permission to submit um an.

B

Additional grant application to the maryland department of housing and community development.

B

For the expansion of assisting broadband networks, um and in this case we're going to be using.

B

Quantum internet services- I think that may be incorrect on the briefing paper you have. It might.

B

Still say comcast, but it is quantum. This project is for 80 homes and 80 businesses located um in.

B

The rural area of manchester and westminster, um it is between sullivan and um frightinger mill, road.

B

And they are asking for a 25 000 county match on this one um they will be covering the other.

B

Rest of the 50 percent and they'll be requesting 189 000 from the state.

A

That is great news. uh Okay, who do you want to hand it off to mark if anybody, um unless you have any.

B

Questions I have carol schauber here. um She did not, unfortunately, have a whole lot of opportunity.

B

To review this either, we were both surprised at noon yesterday, uh when this request came in.

B

um But uh I have to give great kudos to the grants office. They were absolutely spectacular um in.

B

Helping us pull together this pull this together very quickly. um I thank commissioner lance for.

B

His assistance um with this, because it was really totally and completely unexpected, so but you're.

B

Right, it is great news um and what will happen is they'll. Go in with the other two grants and then.

B

We'll see what the state awards it'll be about two to three months before we know what the awards are.

B

Okay and like the last one, we will have to cut if the if they are awarded the grant. We.

B

Will have to come back for you just like we do with the other two um if they get awarded and.

B

Ask you to transfer the money again. We had over seven hundred thousand dollars in the account so.

B

um This twenty five thousand dollars is is not going to affect anything in the big picture. So now.

A

That comcast and quantum can we start uh sharing with folks that this is happening and whoever.

A

Else is out, there is going to jump on board and uh you know, participate all the other providers or is.

A

That the um actually the other providers are aware of this they're, also aware of the art off grant.

B

At this point in time, the one other local provider that we have has chosen not to do this this year.

B

This is the second year in a row that the state's done in this program.

B

um But yes, we uh will be doing um you know as time goes on, be doing press releases and on.

B

Course, keeping the public up to date um with where things stand and when they get awarded.

C

Is the fact that you know we're probably not going to get all these grants and and if, if, if.

C

One of these goes, one of the other ones might not go, but, as we discussed yesterday, I think.

C

It's important to put in for as many as we can and then see what what what comes out in the wash so.

C

uh I I applaud, I applaud uh quantum for wanting to jump in here and uh I would just say that you know.

C

I've been hearing some discouraging comments about some of the the uh actions that comcast.

C

Has taken over the recent few days, so you know when you need, when you're the only game in town.

C

It it's it, it makes things interesting but quantum's, jumping in here, and I applaud them for.

C

That so uh I think this is a good thing and we'll see you know, garrett or halter could get thrown.

C

Out of the mix as a result of this, but um I think it's important to get as many folks in as we can.

A

Yeah, I agree in bills great value for our money, we're owning a county match at 25 000. we're doing.

D

80 homes and eight businesses- for that- that is tremendous. That's really that's really great big.

D

Big step now is the intent again going from all the way to the house and not just to the point on.

A

The road- yes, commissioner, and we did verify that with comcast as well, that comcast is building all.

B

The way to the home and kevin would be doing the same thing all the way up to the house.

B

Does this now there's also um homes in the ag preserved uh areas which have very long distances.

A

Between the road and the homes, these homes- we're not including any of that in this, are we.

A

Not that I'm aware of commissioner, no, I don't think any of the any of the these builds.

B

Meet those requirements yeah, I didn't think so. I just uh I had the conversation at the ag board.

A

This past week and I talked about what you were able to accomplish shared last week- this is great.

A

News, I mean they're very appreciative, but they also highlighted uh the concerns of some of the.

A

Very large parcels in uh our preserved lands um getting from road to homes and.

A

I know dick you're well aware of that. I would imagine yes, commissioner yeah so: okay, um okay,.

E

Skipping along the edge of my district, I would like to uh move that the board of commissioners.

E

Off the walls department of technology service to submit application for the fy 21 expansion of.

E

Existing broadband network grant authorized to use county money.

E

For the match and accept the awards, second, okay: we got a motion in a second really appreciate all the.

A

Work mark you're doing on this and the entire team. Thank you so much and we appreciate your.

B

Support commissioners and support you're playing an important role in helping us accomplish these.

B

Things any further discussion for the group, any questions here and seeing none all in favor.

A

I got five thumbs up fantastic, let's move on. Thank you. Commissioners have a good day.

A

um I believe jeff should be getting on to talk about solid waste enterprise fund.

A

Financing option system benefit, charge or sbc.

A

If I see eu.

A

I see eric is that who we got, we gotta actually got the brains of the uh team.

A

Oh and then there's jeff, okay, so who's taking this on jeff. Are you leading it off.

F

I believe jeff is, can you hear me, okay, yeah, absolutely, okay,.

G

Jeff, okay, there he goes.

H

Thank you so uh today, I'm here with uh deputy director.

H

Eric berdine and beer chief cliff engel to present us on solutions for balancing our fund balance.

H

uh Like many of our services and county government, we provide for our citizens.

H

We are unable to charge a gate fee high enough to cover the past 50 years to current.

H

Of our landfills, nor the expenses and the regulations to come- and yes, there are many pieces.

H

Of legislation- that's in annapolis, currently that will impact our solid waste fund greater than we.

H

Have seen in recent years, even with the recycling market, um so there's a lot we're keeping in mind.

H

So today we're here because the board uh takes direction to provide a solution to resolve the.

H

General fund transfer into the solid waste fund after consulting industry experts and reviewing.

H

Recommendations from solid waste advisory council we're here to present on our finances.

H

Let me pass this along to clip ingle uh for our presentation to the board today.

F

Good afternoon, commissioners, and and thank you all very much for having us having us before you today,.

F

And since it's my first one uh since january 1st happy new year to all uh again throughout.

F

The last year staff and the board have discussed many facets of the solid waste enterprise fund.

F

Most recently, how can we address the fund's financial sustainability going forward? As you know,.

F

Our fund operates in a deficit each year and that deficit's covered through a general fund transfer.

F

A primary goal of our evaluation has been to identify what options are available to.

F

Eliminate that general fund transfer without reducing services and without reducing I'm.

F

Sorry without reducing services we provide to residents and businesses of the county.

F

Or negatively affecting operational uh performance or regulatory compliance in our facilities.

F

uh And as we discussed previously, given that we are predominantly a waste transfer, operation and.

F

Have been since 1998 without a dedicated revenue source to offset the increased cost, the solution.

F

As we've mentioned before is not on the expense side of the equation, giving our current model.

F

There it goes okay, our county obligations. Basically, the state of maryland has long.

F

Recognized that having plans and systems in place at the local level to effectively manage public.

F

Health, and that includes solid waste, water and wastewater systems, which we're all familiar with.

F

Is beneficial to all state residents, therefore, the state has codified these requirements.

F

With solid waste related sources presented on the slide.

F

And basically, those two are maryland code: title nine, which is the environment article.

F

Says each county must have a plan for water, sewer, solid waste acceptance and disposal facilities.

F

And also maryland code, title 26, a department of environment that requires the county to have a.

F

Comprehensive plan in place to adequately provide throughout the county, the following facilities and.

F

Services: it's in solid waste disposal systems, acceptance facilities, a systematic collection.

F

And disposal of solid waste, or some combination thereof, and that administrative history dates.

F

Back to well before 1985., in fact, there's some references all the way back to 1971.

F

Our program as it is today has evolved over time to meet those ongoing chain. All the ongoing.

F

Changes from regulatory standpoint and challenges that we've faced here at the local level.

F

Okay, the table shown on this side slide. Three basically summarizes each solid waste.

F

Fund category and our draft projected fiscal 22 expenses and I say draft because estimates are.

F

Always in flux, at this stage of the budget process or some of them, some of them may.

F

Change mildly: along the way, our solid waste fund, solid waste fund budget reflects that we again.

F

Primari, primarily a waste transfer operation uh since 1998, with approximately 85 000 tons, forecast.

F

To be transferred in fiscal 22., if you recall recently, we were transferring less to try to save.

F

Money for other things we are in our budget, 30, 000 tons of transfer- I'm sorry of landfill this year.

F

And then that number decreases with the 85 000 tons transferred in fiscal 22 and beyond.

F

What that does, is it further conserves our landfill air space and extends landfill life.

F

In summary, for fiscal 22 we're estimating expenses of approximately 11.6 million dollars.

F

And that's again fund wide and that's versus tip fee revenue of approximately 8.3 million dollars.

F

Which resorts? Which results in the shortfall shown for fiscal 22 projected of 3.3 million dollars.

F

To be covered by a general fund transfer one thing as a side note, uh I'd like to mention.

F

Is that 3.3 million, with approximately 95 000 tons of trash that crosses the scale.

F

That comes out to be 35 a ton. So if there's any discussion or thought about what we would have.

F

To raise our tip fee to uh in order to just try to break even it would be additional 35.

F

A ton which would take us up to about 100 a ton if we desire to make the deficit up solely.

F

uh By raising tip fees- and there are many many challenges that would be associated with that.

F

uh We did try that approach in the past uh and the results were not good.

I

Mr engel can you elaborate on the results, were not good uh waste? We have waste, went away from the.

F

Facility so although we did increase our tip fee, we lost tonnage, you know if you increase your tip.

F

Fee- and that was only if somebody could correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was in the low 70s a.

F

Ton at that time, more waste went away than was the the with revenue that was made up by an extra by.

F

The higher tip fee, so we ended up further behind uh just by raising the tip fee up into the 70s.

F

And there's no reason to expect that the same result wouldn't happen again, especially if we.

F

Raise the tip fee significantly, so that's one of the reasons we say this is not necessarily a.

F

A solution on the tip fee and or tip fee side of the of the equation along the way there also from.

F

Fiscal 22 to 27 on the slide, you see the increases in the projected deficit, that's because of items.

F

That we're budgeting, uh making sure that are in the budget as we potentially open your cell.

F

Area replace equipment that is aging and replace infrastructure that is aging so we're trying to.

F

Make sure that we are budging but budgeting accurately and transparently. So the question.

F

Is that's where we are? The question is what's next, these are just some of this. Just a highlight.

F

Of a few of the projects that are going to be required uh in the next few years, uh you'll.

F

See again, these costs included in the future years operating and cibp budgets as appropriate.

F

And again, our goal is to budget realistically going forward in fiscal, 22 uh or possibly.

F

The beginning of fiscal 23 at the latest, we're going to have to open the next portion of cell 3.

F

Which, fortunately, is already constructed, but right now it's not utilized the design and.

F

Construction cost to get into that area is going to be about 200 thousand dollars and that's based.

F

On uh prior similar projects, because we'd be opening additional sell area, we'd be having.

F

We'd have more leachate, so there will be added leachate treatment costs of over three hundred.

F

Thousand dollars annually excuse me, and that also at that time will require at least one.

F

Full-Time employee worth of hours, in order to address that uh that hauling and we have transfer.

F

Station floor repairs uh coming down the line that are going to be in excess of likely 125 000.

F

And again, that's uh based on the prior project prior similar projects at the transfer station.

F

It's a concrete floor in a very bad environment or excuse the the slide hick up there and it does.

F

Take a toll: the operation takes its toll on that floor and it needs to be, will need to be repaired.

F

Stepping ahead a little bit or looking ahead a little bit uh as cell 3, would then be filling.

F

Up in fiscal 27 or later, depending on what our disposal uh versus transfer tonnage ratio is.

F

At some point in time, we would need to construct cell 4.. The sulfur is permitted, but that's also.

F

Where the transfer station sits, it's also where our residential waste drop-off area sits. So if.

F

We were to construct cell 4, it would require a new transfer station to be located. We don't know if we.

F

Have the room on site for that or not, and it would also require a new residential waste drop-off area.

F

To be constructed, the design permitting and construction costs associated with those projects.

F

Depending on how far out they are uh are estimated to be at least 15 million dollars likely greater.

F

Now, from a perspective standpoint as to how much time we would have until these things.

F

Need to be done in cell 3, our existing life in the currently built cell. If we were to.

F

Have continued to dispose of 40 000 tons a year it's six years and it may sound like a lot, but.

F

That comes you know. Time comes really quickly in this industry, however, at the 10 000 ton budgeted.

F

Figure going forward it's 27 years so, depending on what we do and how we do it, there's a wide range.

F

Of impact to what our future uh schedule will be at the facility, we need to be at the facility.

F

So as a as we mentioned before, uh we've talked about and been directed to look at.

F

Opportunities to to eliminate the general fund contribution.

F

As jeff had mentioned, uh these were opportunities or options that were evaluated by solid waste.

F

Advisory committee and others also the studies that have been done in the past.

F

And one of the most realistic options would be institution, the development institution of.

F

What's called a system benefit charge or the sbc and you'll see some familiar information.

F

Here, because we have discussed these just to a degree in the past, but a system benefit charge.

F

Basically is a service charge which can cover a portion or all of the reasonably anticipated.

F

Capital and operating costs for processing and disposal of solid waste and recycling.

F

That's very similar definition to what one of the other counties in maryland.

F

That has this program in place, so that's where that comes from.

F

uh What can a system benefit charge cover the column on the left? It could be something very.

F

Very basic it could cover just the general phone contribution and keeping in mind.

F

That that general fund contribution is already on everybody's tax bill, so this is this is a.

F

A contribution from the property owners- that's already being done and has been done uh every year.

F

That we've taken the general fund contribution an spc can cover fixed operating costs, which could be.

F

Sell could be recycling programs, it could cover other specific programs beyond that.

F

It could cover tip fees again, depending on, what's put together, cover some tip fees for different.

F

uh Waste streams they could cover all tip fees if we decided that was the direction we wanted to go.

F

It could also be put together to fund future capital and infrastructure, which right now.

F

We really do not accumulate or do not save for the future construction of the facility.

F

An sbc could also be formulated to cover the entire solid waste enterprise fund, so.

F

Not only landfill operations, but excuse me transfer operations, administration.

F

uh Closure post closure everything that falls into our fund, the sources for as an sbc.

F

Could be several different uh types of properties and again these vary based on the program.

F

Improved residential properties, which again every property in the county today, is contributing.

F

A portion of their taxes towards this operation we'll cover that here shortly it could be improved.

F

Commercial industrial properties- that's very common in other counties that have these programs.

F

It could be all improved properties, so now you're, looking at including agriculture and other.

F

Properties or it could be all properties in the county, even those that are not not developed.

F

F

What we've done in looking through all of the options, especially what other counties do and.

F

Looking through what what we could possibly do is we wanted to look at providing at least two.

F

Model examples at a at a particular depth of discussion, of what this sbc could look like.

F

And again, I've mentioned it before it's already part of everybody's property tax. Before we get.

F

Into that, just what is that amount? Well, at the 3.3 million dollar projected shortfall for fiscal 22.

F

It's approximately 70 dollars for county property, so approximately 70 dollars in everybody's tax.

F

Bill will actually be coming towards our uh our operations. A system benefit charge would simply.

F

Call out that as a separate line item on the tax bill, so it could be reviewed, it could be.

F

Understood by everybody that it applies to, if we were to only do a conversion of the.

F

Of the general fund, transfer, waste and recycling tip fees would remain the same.

F

A system benefit charge of that spc would be adjusted regularly, based on the projected deficit.

F

And again, it could apply to either a flat or as a flat rate per residential property.

F

Flat rate for residential and commercial or industrial property, or some combination thereof,.

F

So this is presented as really again the basic uh low end or entry level spc model, for example,.

F

On the next, we want to look at an example of the that's at the other end of the spectrum.

F

And that would be a system benefit charge that covers all solid waste enterprise fund operations.

F

Operations and expenses, as I mentioned, there's a lot in the middle. uh It's kind.

F

Of like an a la carte menu but we're looking at the two ends.

F

Of the spectrum uh in this example before we get into the slide, the the estimated svc range.

F

Would be somewhere between again, depending what's in it 150 to 170 dollars per property per year,.

F

It again would cover all solid waste enterprise fund operations and costs, but what it would also.

F

Cover and again fees for service. From that perspective it would eliminate household.

F

Solid waste tip fees so trash that is normally put at the curb from a residential property.

F

Would be covered, there would be no tip fee for that. If that resident hauled it in directly.

F

And if they have a service company collecting it or hauler collecting it, they should not be.

F

Paying for the disposal, it should be simply for the service of picking that material up.

F

This program would also it's good yeah. I have a question for you. You said that the system benefit.

D

Charger fee would be about 70 for all properties to cover it about the 3.2 million dollars or.

D

Something that that the shortfall is that we're covering right now right, correct, but again that's.

F

Just an estimate 60 to 70 all right. What did you just say that the fee would be to cover all of.

D

It 150 to 170. 150 to 170 dollars. Again, it's a range you're. Looking at four times the amount.

D

You look at almost 12 million dollars, so how can double the amount cover four times.

F

Again, depending on what is included in with it, our total budget is projected to be eleven six. There.

F

Are other things that go into there that have been? I don't want to say, you know unfunded, but.

F

Bringing our closure post-closure accruals to the level they need to be.

F

uh What we need to do down the road for closure of the facility capping the facilities.

F

uh All of that is in that that estimate again we're trying to just give a a window.

F

Of each of these examples, well I understand that, but if I don't know, okay.

D

Go ahead, it just doesn't seem to make mathematical sense that you double something and then pay and.

D

That's actually paying for almost four times the amount hope to understand, but go ahead.

F

Again, in this scenario too, we would be eliminating recycling tip fee, which was.

F

Just implemented in january, tip fees would remain for bulk and construction demolition, material.

F

uh Commercial and industrial wastes again, these are from particular jobs or from locations that.

F

Are not generating uh just a ton or two of waste per year, so it would not really work being applied.

F

To those facilities without those to those jobs without taking.

F

A tip fee as well, if there's these spcs, are reviewed periodically and adjusted as necessary.

F

And again, the application scenarios will be flat charged for a residential residential property.

F

Or a flat charge to residential and commercial industrial properties.

F

So that sbc on a commercial or industrial property is really their contribution.

F

Contribution towards making sure they're ensuring that our county-wide system is sustainable.

F

But I don't know if I missed a slider out there, I'm very sorry, okay.

F

At this point we can either we can dig a little deeper into the process, uh but essentially at this.

F

What we did as staff uh really is, let's say as far as we can go, but the next step really would.

F

Be or if this was something that the county wanted to look at, no matter which level of an sbc it is.

F

uh We would need to engage consultants who are basically obviously sbc professionals, but.

F

The consultants that have developed these plans in the past.

F

Up through it, including legislation or local legislation, that would have to be enacted.

F

To formally review our program cost and develop precise models uh for consideration.

F

uh We'd also ask that the county attorney, although we believe uh that everything is in place for.

F

Us to be able to do this if we so choose to do another level review of existing code and prepare.

F

A briefing on the local steps, legislative steps, if any for establishing an spc at the county level,.

F

So again, at that point I want to thank you for your time and open the floor to further.

F

Discussion cliff does any of these costs for, uh for the solid way for nm.

E

Wda or sbc are they included in the? um I guess, the dues we pay to be in those organizations.

F

If I'm not mistaken and jeff jeff can probably speak to it a little deeper than I can.

F

uh There are, there are cons, there are base level consulting uh services in that.

F

uh Something like this, though, would really need to be a uh some level of a procurement, whether.

F

It's through an existing on-call contract uh that the authority has, uh but it as we've seen in the.

F

Past, with other things, uh it likely would be less expensive or less costly to us to go through one.

F

Of their contractors, or one of their consultants than it would be for us to try to put this out on.

F

The street and handle it ourselves, the authority does have quite a bit of experience as well, so.

F

I think there would be value included in that in that dues for the again for the base level.

F

Of consulting effort on their part, uh both of which they've already said, they are very.

F

Very willing to uh to help us with okay yeah. This covers some of our costs on this.

E

As we're looking at this, what are we doing to reduce the waste? I mean the waste is still there.

E

And the product, that's the problem, the waste coming in. I was hoping you know the.

E

Two would go together that we have some plan to reduce waste coming into our landfills or.

E

Getting rid of it rather than putting it in the ground long term, as well as dealing with.

E

The costs of it at your thoughts and and also the transfer, which is the really you know, the bigger.

F

Piece of it all is the transfer cost yeah. Our our 10-year solid waste management plan, which we.

F

Put together internally, along with external help, those that outlines our steps and our programs.

F

To not only reuse and recycle, but also reduce waste as well.

F

Much much of that is outreach to the local communities it's identifying as.

F

Many recycling programs no cost to low cost that we can and implement those programs.

F

And over over time, we've done a phenomenal job at that, especially being a rural, small county.

F

The programs that we have in place here uh would make many bigger counties, larger counties jealous.

F

uh And that effort continues and and especially through maria myers, our recycling uh recycling.

F

Manager who was out and about constantly and trying to hammer those along now, there's also.

F

And jeff may touch on this little later, but there also is legislation. That's pending in annapolis,.

F

It's been there in different forms for the last few years. It's back up again, where there are.

F

Programs or legislation that may come along for producer responsibility, meaning things like paint.

F

Other types of wastes uh where they would not be landfilled anymore, they'd be well.

F

Depending on how far they would ban it, but they would give opportunities that were the.

F

Where the producers of those materials would be required to take those materials.

F

Back for recycling or other processing, televisions, electronics, possibly so they're.

F

The state is working on that on that path as well. They also have legislation that is looking to.

F

Make it, I guess, establish a deeper recycling department at the mde. I think that's probably.

F

Some legislation we could definitely get behind because part of their effort.

F

Is statewide reduction uh and reuse, so all of those pieces are in place and again we we.

F

uh Keep our ear to the uh to the finger to the wind for for everything that comes down. That's.

F

Not going to cut not going to cost us a ton of money, you know some of the recycling programs that.

F

Are out, there may reduce material going to the landfill, but they could be inordinately expensive.

F

uh Just I'll throw an example out there of television recycling, it's not that there aren't.

F

Companies that offer it, but they may be charging 10, 15 20 a unit to us.

F

To do that recycling um at some point in time that becomes more.

F

Cost prohibitive to the department than it does uh than the benefit at the other end.

H

Yeah in cliff I'll add to that is uh some of the things that we've seen too. Is you know some of.

H

Our surrounding jurisdictions have some waste to energy capabilities to where that's considered.

H

Recycling um in reuse of those materials, but one of you know one of the other legislative pieces.

H

Of legislation- legislation that's out there right now is uh you know, requiring composting for um at.

H

Least the larger jurisdictions with it eventually going to move forward to a requirement for the.

H

Smaller uh counties, um which you know our county because of this you know we are. We have a lot of.

H

Agricultural um areas- um we're not as populated as as some of the other surrounding counties.

H

We would prob, you know, we've already. We looked in this couple years ago is there's a facility.

H

That's looking to be constructed down in jessup and, yes, we could reduce the amount of material.

H

That's coming in to be either transfer to put in a landfill, um that's compostable material. um You.

H

Need to develop a collection system uh collection process for that. You also need to haul it to.

H

The facility in jessup, um you know, but that material would probably still have to you know.

H

Would still be charged at a fee in the hauling and transportation collection, etc could be running.

H

Equal to or higher than what our current tip fee is, um you know we're and we're not looking at this.

H

From a cost we're looking, you know, we understand we're trying to reduce the amount of material.

H

Coming physically go that would be going into the ground somewhere, um you know, but we also have to.

H

Look at you know right, you know the dollar amount because, as we increase recycling we're, you know.

H

We're paying you know, you know, there's there's a cost associated with that um is there composting.

H

There's a cost associated with that um these programs, if it's televisions etc, um you know so.

H

In their work, you know when the state is working toward a you know waste. You know a zero waste type.

H

Of group to be brought on board to help um move us forward, uh but one of the challenges we've always.

H

Run into is the size of our county, uh because we are a rural county and we're right on that line.

H

Of rural to you know, we've always been in that middle zone kind of like that middle child.

H

We don't have enough material to take on these large projects ourselves to be.

H

um To be the head of what these other areas and counties are, um but you know we're not.

H

You know so we're just you know. Those are some of the challenges we have that you know.

H

As we're looking into this, but it's you know, if there's an option out there, we look into it.

F

And those are initiatives that are under the current administration.

F

In the state level, uh somewhere down the road, we'll have a new governor and things may change.

F

Again, I'm not sure if anyone remembers, but you know when governor o'malley was in office. There.

F

Was a basically a landfill ban, no new landfills, no new landfill areas to be designed or permitted.

F

So that could happen again and it's probably likely to happen again at some point in time.

F

So again, a lot of those initiatives are good. The producer responsibility is is wonderful,.

F

In my opinion, there's a lot of material that should be should be placed back onto uh the.

F

Generator of it or the the manufacturer of it in order to manage uh so we don't have to, or so.

F

The residents of businesses don't have to uh it's multiple, multiple answers or pieces to the answer.

F

You know, unfortunately, again the biggest piece of our discussion is the fact that we transfer.

F

And I can't reiterate that enough and if we put everything in the ground, yeah we'd have we'd.

F

Run out of room pretty quickly, uh but if we put everything in the ground there wouldn't be five.

F

Thousand five million dollars worth of transfer costs. Now that's a very broad brush statement.

F

But it's it's generally accurate, uh so that that's where we're dealing with where we are today.

F

And where this is the direction we've been driven in, I see ted lit up.

G

Yeah, can I jump in for a second commissioners.

I

Hey sure, okay, um this is look. I want to go back to something that commissioner frazier questioned.

G

uh I waited a little while to see where things were going, but I didn't want you to go too deep.

G

Without understanding this, and when commissioner frazier questioned the relationship between.

G

A system benefit charge covering the general fund transfer and covering.

G

All the costs and why it didn't say to make sense, is because it's not a good comparison.

G

Right now, the general fund transfer we have planned is not enough to cover the costs that we.

G

Are projecting so covering the cost of the existing transfer is easier than covering.

G

The cost of the entire operation, so you really can't compare those two numbers.

G

I would say the relevant number for you to be thinking about is the second one that.

G

Cliff gave you what you would need to cover the cost of the operation.

A

Which is at 150, 170 per household.

F

Per property- yes per property yeah, I apologize well, that's, okay and- and you brought up a very.

F

Good point uh that is per property. There are again uh dozens of different ways that something that an.

F

Sbc could be put together, uh it could be looked at per property again developed or undeveloped.

F

It could be looked at as housing unit where, if you have a a property, may have 10 apartments on it.

F

Well, that that's different than per property and that depth is what would.

F

Need what we would need? The assistance of the professionals really who are familiar.

F

With those programs and the development of those programs to be able to address.

I

I have a real hard time trying to swallow this, that you're selling to us that it sets off 70 feet.

I

Per household or 150 feet per household- that's no big deal, but if we roll that.

I

Into a charge directly linked to the service, that is a big deal. Let me propose this question to each.

I

One of our staff members: you live on a fixed income. You make x amount of dollars each year.

I

And every year inflation starts hitting- and I see what's coming, your your grocery bill starts to go.

I

Up what do you all do you need to feed yourself, but you cut back spending on something else.

I

And I think that's precisely what we need to do and I keep hearing about the recycling costs this.

I

Will do absolutely nothing to solve the problem, even if we gave you the system benefit charge, a.

I

Couple years down, the road would all be out of balance again. What you don't do come back say.

I

We need to increase the system's benefit charge until you link the cost to the revenue source.

I

We're always all see ourselves spun in this circle. Over and over again, I have no problem.

I

With cutting spending somewhere else, as we have to and be very upfront with the public about, it.

I

Or selling them the fact that this needs to be directly linked to it. I am completely against.

I

This concept, because we'll have to keep coming back every couple years, because all these state.

I

Mandates obviously known paid attention to my speech and we'll have to find ways to raise taxes.

I

To cover this cost again, this is not the solution. Well, eric when the president's presentation they.

D

Said they would reevaluate a yearly about whatever said to make sure that the cost did.

D

Cover everything, so you don't have to keep coming back to us. That's in that's in the presentation.

I

The point is in the future, the cost of recycling will keep going up.

I

And they're not to keep raising this tax over and over again.

I

Because the it is not directly linked to what's driving the inflation and our costs.

A

What does that mean? I'm trying I'm trying to follow say it one more time. Smaller words.

I

All right, what happens with us is the mandate, the supply all this recycling.

I

It costs more for us as a county to recycle right now. I think we're charging uh 35 dollars a ton.

I

For the haulers to dispose of the recycle and it's cost us 140.

I

And in the future you know: what's all happening, that cost, it's all go up.

I

So there's no responsibility to recycle. Isn't there a mandate precisely? That's it.

I

So that precisely there is a mandate. What I'm saying is we need to link.

I

That cost or recycle into the users, and we need to sell it to them, explain it to them. I think.

I

They'd much easier swallow the fee directly linked to the cost than throwing this blanket.

I

Systems benefit charge across the board and, what's scary for me, is my ceo goes into general fund. You.

I

Know it's all happened that fun. The next batch of commissioners will go, spend it on something.

I

Else and then you know I'll be short again, so you said users what users, users that are recycling.

I

The recycle and solid waste everyone pays their, they pay their hauler to haul away their waste.

I

The hauler drops it off and is paying 35 a ton. It's cost us 140 dollars a ton. So there's.

I

A complete disconnect between our costs and what we're charging people to dump the trash off with.

I

I've fought in the last budget hearing to at least get the recycling cost at 50 percent, like we did.

I

With the salt, lease costs at least be consistent in it, but this board was opposed that and only.

I

Set the cost per ton of recycler 35, that's a drop in the bucket of what it actually costs us.

J

Commissioner, if I may um this, this deficit in um in the solid waste fund is not directly related to.

J

uh Recycling, it started in the late 90s and 98 99 when the board of commissioners at that time chose.

J

To transfer waste and did not create a revenue stream to pay for that transfer of waste um and.

J

At that time, and up until a couple about maybe five years ago, roughly um recycling actually was a.

J

Money maker for us and about around in most recent times the number I remember is fifteen dollars a.

J

Time uh might have been more even at one time, and it depends on what kind of recycling you're.

J

Talking about so this, this deficit, this problem is not related to recycling. Now that doesn't mean you.

J

Couldn't change reticle and tip fees? I just want to make sure that it's clear that that is not the.

J

Genesis of the book- thank you for elaborating on that, but you made something very clear there.

I

Previous commissioners did not link it to the revenue stream. That is the heart of what I'm.

I

Arguing about there's a complete disconnect between the expense and what we're receiving.

I

And I know just like the piece you gave me: I'm terrible agreement. We subsidize all kinds of.

I

Stuff, but we have to have some sort of balance to keep us in the in the rails and and not going so.

I

Deep into red, there has to be a connection and we can pay for other things. We have to cut back on.

I

Expenses elsewhere I mean this is a basic need and I think this board needs to have the courage to.

I

Cut back spindle and some other things and face this. We we're at the bottom rung of government.

I

We don't control this, this stuff runs downhill and it's on our back. We need to face it publicly.

I

Explain this very directly to the public for that they comprehend and understand this.

I

We need to stop spending money on other things to address this, because it's a priority and that's a.

I

Big sacrifice to make nobody wants anything cut. I can see what's coming in our budget session.

I

Everybody's got their sacred cows, we need public transportation, we need the veterans.

I

Shuttle we know what we need our public waste disposed of. I think that's more important.

D

So your solution to this erica, I think from what you're saying and correct me: if I'm, if I'm.

D

Wrong here, but your solution is to cut something somewhere else and use that money to pay for the.

D

Solid waste fund or because you also talked about direct link between servers and use, so I so are.

D

You a combination of those two or just cutting something. It's precisely. That's the compromise.

I

We need to come to just like before when we change the fees on the solid waste dumping or the tipping.

I

Fee per ton we hit the 50 more, we did it on all the other fees we charged throughout our system.

I

That that's something I've championed that campaigned on, and I thank my colleagues.

I

Tremendously for instituting that through building permits and all the other fees we we.

I

Have that philosophy needs to ring through and be consistent throughout our administration? It.

I

Needs to be applied to this in particular, because this is one of the most critical ones out there.

I

And what we do shortfall? That's the other side, the general population funds all that, but it needs to.

I

Be put in perspective and linked somehow to the expense. Are you are you looking at user fees.

E

On everything we put in the landfill by the the user pays for everything no yeah. I think you just.

I

Missed what I just said: not for the user to pay everything but to try to split it down the middle.

I

Like we do with the labor costs on uh permits and stuff for the county, all we're asking for the.

I

People that come in for the permit to do is pay for labor costs publicly. The general funding that.

I

We receive pays for the other half of it. I just want that basic principle to be applied to this.

I

Because mark my word and mark it right now, every last one of yours, if you pass this bill.

I

To raise these fees we'll be out of balance in the future and this administration we won't be here.

I

They don't come back in the next administration, knocking on our door saying we need to raise.

I

The system benefit charge again because it has absolutely no connection to the expense.

C

You have some, I think you have some deliberately in that comment, eric that. Yes, I think down the.

E

Road, some things will be forgotten and we're not linked in and that that's where I guess back. I.

E

Think the statement I said originally it's got to be. You know we got to reduce the waste here.

E

uh Coming in somehow or find a way to get rid of it, you know even hauling it out. I guess, there's a.

E

Way, but I'm not sure it's a good way um if you were going to make money, we just open the cell.

E

Up and fill it up in the next five six years, and then I don't know what we do, but we could.

E

Make money out of this real fast? uh However, our responsibility comes in. We have to provide a way.

E

For a waste to be disposed of, I was hoping we had. You know some, even uh I think jeff was alluding.

E

To uh maybe a combined effort between counties but something's got to start taking place. We've.

E

Been batting, this can down the road for 20 years, and we don't have anything yet and and for the.

I

Sake of commissioner williams, we don't want his constituents disposing of wasting his yard right.

C

Yeah well, there's always that this is a great debate. I got a couple questions.

C

You know we talk about dick, you, you, commissioner weber, you keep talking about. We need to reduce.

C

Waste we need to reduce, it need to reduce it, and then we hear that if we put the tip fees up to.

C

A hundred dollars per ton, they take the waste elsewhere. Well, I'm confused isn't that reducing.

C

Cliff, I I don't I'm I'm confused on that and the other question I have is, and I I might have missed.

C

It here because there's a lot of facts and figures and debate, but you know right now: I'm paying.

C

I don't know almost 300 or more a little bit more than that a year to have my trash removed.

C

So what does an sbc do to me.

F

That might be the first uh answer to that question, depending again, depending on what it is and I'll.

F

With that I'll kind of focus on, if it was all inclusive, if you're, if the system benefit.

F

Charge covers all the expenses the actual disposal tip fee that you pay your hauler.

F

That goes away, but it's transferred to essentially transferred to the tax bill to buy the sbc. If you.

F

Want to continue to have it picked up at the curb you'd, be theoretically paying your hauler.

F

A just this service charge uh to have it hauled away, because that hauler would not be paying a.

F

Tip fee at the landfill by picking from picking up uh you know, county, just household trash, okay, so.

C

My tonight so my fee would my annual fee would go down. It should because their hauler right now pays.

F

A tip fee that hauler would be coming in and again a lot of pieces of the puzzle here. But if a hauler.

F

Is only picking up residential trash through the county when that hauler would would then come to.

F

The landfill they would have no tip fee to pay. Okay, it would be still be scaled because we have.

F

To do we have to keep track of records, we have to expect, so we still have to scale everything.

F

But there would be that they would not be paying a tip fee. You would be paying it as a property owner.

F

Directly, through your benefit charge, then it's up to honestly it's up to the hauler.

F

If they're going to do the right thing and reduce your rate by the equivalent of how much trash you.

F

Were generating every year? Okay! So that's that's where I'm getting confused cliff with this.

C

This argument that that, or this not argument this debate, if, if I as a as a taxpayer in this county,.

C

I'm currently paying around 300 a year and my price is almost going to be cut.

C

In half, why would I not want to do that? Exactly that's kind of where I was going is.

A

Yeah exactly that what you're saying 150 to 170 dollars, I think, is what you wrote down or I wrote.

A

Down and you're saying, then we would everything would be taken care of all expenses as well. Would.

A

Not do that yeah the disposal portion the tip fee portion, the disposal portion is what's covered by.

F

That not the collection activity, if you decided to become a self-hauler and hold your waste in.

F

Like many people in the in the county, do then yes, your 300 in whatever dollar bill.

F

Would be reduced to the 150 to 70, but you then you would be hauling your own waste into the landfill.

F

Right currently, currently, most people, except for those self-haulers um pay two.

J

Fees really when they pay um a trash company to remove their trash they're paying for the.

J

Service of picking it up and delivering it to the landfill and they're paying for the tip fee.

A

Okay, so the service charge would remain if you continue to hire someone to remove your trash. If.

J

The curve the tip feed portion would be eliminated. Okay, I got that I'm just what I'm trying to zero.

C

In on is if that service charge would be reduced by a lot. I've got the potential as a taxpayer. Here.

C

To save money on my trash hauling, right, which I'm sorry go ahead, well, which which, which is.

C

Why I'm confused? I mean I, you know if, if you know if these, if these haulers.

C

I mean good grief if they get 25 a household for a service fee, they're going to probably still make.

C

Out pretty good, especially out here in the rural areas, because that's a lot of houses that they.

C

Can get a fee for so you add that to this sbc you know you're, saying 150 and you know 25 30.

C

Service fee man, I'm I'm saving 150 a year right now. Why would I not want to do that.

C

Or would the service fees be astronomical? Well, I have to say that's why I was going to jump in that.

D

Depends on your haul or what he's going to do with that? Just because he's not paying the same tipping.

D

Fee that doesn't mean he's going to pass all the savings on to the customers. It'd be nice. If that.

D

Happened and how much of a say and how much you know, how much is he actually saving and all that.

D

Kind of stuff divided by all the customers- I don't know how it would work out, I'm not a hauler, but.

D

Don't it's like trickle down whatever doesn't mean you're going to get all that money back.

D

Or they're not going to charge you that exact amount that exact amount. So I think that that's.

F

Where you also have the power of the consumer, the consumer has the power to choose. If you're.

F

If you think your hauler is short-changing you that way, then there are other other haulers out.

F

There cliff, I think, yeah it's almost like it's almost like internet, where there's not you know.

C

When there's one wonders, when there's only one game in town, what game you're going to go to.

C

But if you've got if you've got lance, lance weaver trash incorporated starting up.

C

And and we decide to charge, 20 bucks, a household for a service fee.

C

I'm spending a lot less than I am now on trash removal and it's on my tax bill and I don't have.

C

An I don't have all those extra expenses I I I keep going back. I need, I guess I need to see it.

C

On paper, because I don't under, I don't understand why the average person wouldn't say well yeah, I'm.

C

In on that one, well I'm doing the driving steve you're doing the pitching uh the other problem.

E

Out of the landfill, if we did win something like this, that we keep getting uh the tonnage down at.

E

Barbarian, I'm sorry, commissioner, I missed the first part of that. Would we continue to uh haul.

E

More out than we're burying in the landfill, then, would there be a availability of doing that or.

E

Most of it getting hauled out instead of buried, which would extend our life of that of everything.

F

Yeah yeah again, it depends on what we want. What we and I say we as not just.

F

Our department, but the county as a as a whole, a government staff. uh It depends on what we.

F

We determine that model to be or decide what we want. um Yes, it's if, if less is coming in then.

F

Obviously, less would go out or less would go out. um One of the things to keep in mind. There's two.

F

Things I want to touch on if it's, okay, real briefly uh one was the question earlier about.

F

uh That was made about putting material in the ground and just put it all in the ground,.

F

The time frames for that with what would sell that we have built right now, uh if we, which you.

F

Have eight acres left uh that are not operational if we were to put all 95, 000 tons, give or take a.

F

Little bit a year that we that we accept into the landfill itself cell 3's filled up in three years.

F

The entire facility, including cell 4, is filled up between 12 and 14 and we have nowhere to go.

F

You know from a landfilling standpoint, so those are some timelines uh if we would to keep in mind.

F

uh So cliff one one question I mean because going in the same direction that uh commercial wants.

A

Was going because I agree, but I don't know what the service fees are. You know I I.

A

Understand anecdotally, we can talk about twenty dollars or three, but I honestly don't know.

A

And if we can find that out what a typical or an average of uh service fees are of those that are.

A

uh You know out there right now. I think that would also help us understand what the impact is.

A

And then, commissioner boucher you're talking about stopping capital projects, I mean.

A

You don't want stopping capital projects, putting them into the dollars into the general fund and.

A

Then transferring still keeping things the way they are and transferring money into general funds.

A

Into this program, or because I mean you're, transferring a combination, accommodation of the.

I

Two hold off on spending so much money on capital projects when a real capital project is addressing.

I

This landfill need that is a capital project. It's a matter of shifting our expenses around just.

I

Like we as individuals, if we need more groceries, we spend less money on our cable or cell phone.

I

We have a budget that we're structured inside of and the one problem with this.

I

System's benefit fee, which I keep talking about, you know if we lock down x amount of dollars.

I

It's still not addressing the expense side through inflation, which will go up in the future. This is.

I

The benefit charge will keep going up. The um the capital projects are in line with our priorities.

A

Of safety and security- and you know, issues that we need to address you're, not you know, as I mentioned.

A

Last week, I think in howard county building an art center. You know as a capital project. I don't think.

A

We have an art center in design right now, um but the projects that we have are to keep ourselves.

A

Moving you know in the direction they're not almost a frivolous, but they are priorities for.

A

Things to get done so I'm I'm hesitant to to address shutting down a capital project.

A

Because here's another priority there, it's all our priorities so but this chemical process is.

I

Actually smaller than some of those other ones, I think it to be much more important.

C

So so cliff back to my first question, I keep hearing people saying we got to reduce. We got to.

C

Reduce, let's we got to figure out a way to reduce waste, and you say that if we put the tip fees up.

C

To cover the expense people are going to take trash elsewhere. Well, isn't that reducing waste.

F

It is reducing waste, but uh you know ted might be able to answer this a little better than I can.

F

uh So you may, you know if the time stays the same with 95 a ton and you reduce it or you.

F

Increase the rate 10 bucks, you know it's 950, 000 of additional revenue on paper, assuming no tonnage.

F

Leaves if we were to lose 10 or 20 000 tons, because we just increased our rate or more then.

F

Yes, our we have less material transfer, but we also have less revenue coming in across the scale.

F

So it's a there's a positive in not in our transfer costs going down, but there's a big.

F

Negative in that we just didn't lose for each of those tons that goes away. We just.

F

Didn't lose that 10 increase or that 35 increase, we lost the whole tip fee.

F

So the piece of that tip fee that goes towards our regular operating cost. That would be there.

F

Regardless of what we do that goes away, and we can put a quick, we can put a quick table together.

F

To you know to share with the group um that kind of shows some hypotheticals with that, but that's.

F

That's the problem. Yeah right. We have set costs for the solid waste. Those set costs, don't go away.

D

No matter how many tons we put in there or don't put in there, those set costs still have to be paid.

D

Therefore depends on how much if you, you know, raise up the tip fee and we we lose half the.

D

People coming in there half the trash yeah we've lost half, but we cut our revenues in.

D

Half too would that be enough to to uh meet our set costs, though, to go back something commissioner,.

D

Land said sorry you were talking about, but um if I don't pay to have my trash hauled, I live.

D

In municipality, I pay my city taxes. Therefore, if you add this, 170 dollar system benefit fee. To me,.

D

I I mean it's something I would look at, but then I would have to rely on the city to say you know.

D

What we're going to reduce your taxes here because of this, I'm not so sure, that's going to work.

D

And that's and what 20 percent of population live lives within municipalities to do that.

C

Does every municipality charge on their taxes for trash removal? Oh eight.

D

I'm pretty sure all eight stick up trash and therefore it's part of your your tax bill. Yes,.

A

So then, how much are we talking about how many in a population 20 percent of the county.

C

So then, so then, wouldn't you eliminate those folks from an sbc yeah, I'm all for it now.

F

Well, I don't know if I'm not mistaken, let's say if I could just jump in if I'm a mistake in frederick.

F

County, uh who has a system benefit charge now it applies to. I believe it applies to everybody.

F

Yeah you are correct. It would mean that the county and the towns would have to have that discussion.

F

To make sure that they are letting their citizens take advantage of the same program, the same way.

F

Take advantage of the program the same way that folks, in the uh the county, proper.

F

Would be able to uh one nice thing about it too, though, is uh if it is on the on the the.

F

Spc is on the tax bill. That's the county portion of it. Tip fees are covered, that that should.

F

Streamline the procurement process for each of the cities and towns, so there is a benefit to them.

F

Those local governments to be on board and take advantage of the program.

C

Yeah, with the exception of with the exception of what dennis is saying, and I appreciate that.

C

Dennis that makes sense if there's a way that we could work something out with the.

C

Municipalities, I still ask the question and no one seems to want to answer it.

C

If I'm paying only half of what I'm paying now, why would I not want to do this.

I

Because I don't think that's the reality of what'll happen.

C

Well: okay, so, um okay, you're, giving me an answer based on your guess,.

E

Why don't we ask the haulers if this happened, what would they do to it? What would they do.

E

Right yeah I'd like commissions like that, I think yeah, and we can do that. um I think some.

F

Of the haulers would be more forthcoming than others, but any information is better than none.

F

But one way to kind of back into it, a little bit is, if you look at epa estimates and again it's.

F

Looking at estimates each household on average, because really that's what we can that's.

F

The only thing we can do is look at averages. Each household each household, on average, generates.

F

Between three and four tons of trash a year and on average one ton of that or a little bit more.

F

Is recycled now that's lower in our county uh from our statistics, but if a household generates three.

F

Tons of trash a year that have to get managed that three tons across our scale is 195 dollars.

F

At 65 dollars a ton, if it's four tons, it would be 260 across our scale, so 195 for three 260 for four.

F

Tons so there's the disposal piece subtract that from whatever your annual household bill is there.

F

Is your service charge now? Is it accurate, probably not, but it's definitely in in the right ballpark.

A

Yeah, but I think we still need there's a delta out there and that's not knowing the service charge.

A

From the haulers, uh I think, having that conversation with you know a few of them.

A

Will definitely help out and I think, uh bringing up the point about um municipalities is also.

A

Very important because 20 percent, you know of the county by the municipalities and that's.

A

A pretty large chunk so um yeah, I mean that's kind of where I'm at with this. I.

A

Kind of like where commissioner lance I'm not sure why I wouldn't want to do this.

A

It seems like I'd, be saving money moving forward. Well, that's the case. Everybody's.

D

Gonna go toward it. It's like you, said: we've gotta talk to the haulers and find out what.

D

Their actual service charge would be if they weren't paying tipping fees yeah and then.

D

Right right and it would be just a guesstimate, I'm not none of us are suggesting that that.

C

Would happen, but I'm not going to sit here and debate something because somebody guesses that.

C

It won't happen right. Do it to me on paper. This is a big enough issue not to be making guesses.

D

I guess you're right yeah, I I I agree. Yes keep guessing.

A

Things that we need um giving you a little bit of direction. You know, gentlemen, to.

A

Come back to us with some of that, so we can actually put numbers on paper and understand.

A

You know unless commissioner wants and weaver are starting up their just their. uh You know. You know.

A

Business for twenty dollars- I mean I may just go with that, but I don't know.

A

It'll it'll allow us to move forward because right now I don't think.

A

For me, I'm not prepared to move forward because I don't know.

A

What numbers are right? I think we need to talk to the haulers find out what the service fee would be.

D

If there's no tipping fee, but I also like to talk to the municipalities to find out if they.

D

Were involved in this and every all these their citizens were charged a system benefit charge.

D

Because if we made a county wide, I think it would ease the burden on everybody ease the amount.

D

um What would they do? Would they lower taxes, or I just I like to get an idea from what.

D

What their perspective is, because it would cost them less money too, because they pay tipping fees.

D

Then, if they don't and they say well, we just keep that money because we're gonna need it for.

D

This then okay, then they're not included, but I like to have the conversation with them too.

H

If I can add to a point, is when we uh two things is um um first being is: when we did the.

H

Pilot with new windsor, uh who was gracious enough to work with us on that pilot, um you know they do.

H

Have it separated out with it they were able to easily separate out when they charge their.

H

Citizens and their taxes tip fee and they have a outside hauler that does all the hauling for.

H

Them so they were able to separate that out um and part of the deal was we reimbursed those tip fees.

H

Back to the citizens that they had already paid in their taxes, because there was no way.

H

For us to make, you know, we would have been doing a lot of adjustments on their books.

H

So we have a look. We have some experience with that um in the second you know- or I guess, there's.

H

Gonna be a third point, but uh commissioner lance I mean I and, and I understand, is when what we pay.

H

Every you know we pay every year for a hauler to pick up our trash and recycling. um The minute you.

H

Know as soon as that fee went up, commissioner boucher, that we had for thirty dollars a ton.

H

uh As soon as that was implemented, I got a. I got a notification from my hauler saying by the way.

H

um Your your rates just went up every month. um You know because now there's a pay. You know.

H

There's a fee for recycling, so um you know that they definitely that's a pass-through.

H

Right to me, and I'm already I'm already paying it um and you know as everybody's talking about.

H

The numbers- um that's part of um I guess on the briefing paper is for us to you- know.

H

We have some theoreticals, we have some data in front of us and what.

H

We're asking the board is the ability to go out to solicit bringing on a consultant to.

H

Put these values put these numbers together, put the scenarios and make sure we're, including.

H

Everything so we can answer these questions for the for the board of you know it's because you.

H

Have industrial users you have the residential properties? You have some undeveloped properties.

H

That have to be brought into consideration. uh We have some of our county trash um that goes to.

H

Another out a third party here in the county of which we lose some revenue every every year,.

H

Because it goes to that facility for them to haul out to the same location, we are losing.

H

We lose revenue even when that's not coming across our our scales, which ups our expenses.

H

So I just that's just want to bring that around no personally, I believe.

A

There still needs to be due diligence done by our staff before we reach out and hire a.

A

Consultant to do more, I think, there's some basic uh information that we can receive.

A

And then get it out there I mean that's, you know, I don't want to waste a consultant's time. I don't.

A

Want to spend money on a consulting where there's staffing that we can still do so um yeah. I kind of.

C

Agree with that, commissioner ross dean, I also have another quick question um cliff. If, if I'm a person.

C

Who goes to the dump every other week and I don't pay anybody right now: okay, okay,.

C

But now I've got an s58 in my tax bill.

C

So I'm not going to go to the dump anymore because I.

C

I would rather pay a hauler right, I'm going to pay a hauler, because I've got that spc on there.

C

Is there an advantage to cutting down on the traffic there at the at the landfill.

C

By not having the folks constantly that want to take their own trash out there going across the.

C

Scale all the time or is that it that doesn't matter? Well, I don't know yeah, it's tough to say.

F

What percentage of the customers you know who sell all right now would take advantage of that.

F

Opportunity yeah: I think it would be a great opportunity to stop wear and tear on a vehicle.

F

And you know other things of that sort, but I don't know how many people would uh would take advantage.

F

Of that reverse but because I'm sorry clint. uh But when you, if you haul you in trash- and I don't but.

D

If you don't, do you still pay for the tonnage that you're putting into the landfill? Don't you.

D

Therefore, you're thoughtful you're getting a benefit because now you're.

D

Not paying a tipping fee right, what's your favorite correct.

E

I'm sorry, commissioner weaver, what's the minimum fee, you paid just to go across the scales.

F

Seven dollars up to 220 pounds, so that's about, if say 50 weeks a year, 350 dollars going.

E

You're paying just to take it yourself, correct.

C

Does it have much.

C

Yeah, that's kind of where I was going, uh commissioner weaver, because.

C

If you could, if you could get these folks- and you know I had this conversation with.

C

One of the westminster city councilmen, you know whenever you talk about the landfill.

C

That's a sacred cow, you know don't do anything to the landfill because well obviously you guys know.

C

What happened when we did do something with the landfill? You know what happened out here on the.

C

Road anyway, if, if folks could understand that, if there is this spc, oh but wait, that means you don't.

C

Have to go to the dump twice a month: oh and you're saving 50 a month. Why would I not want to do that.

I

Well, my last words are this: we all were told as children if it sounds too good to be true.

I

It's not true. Well, it's not true, but, like I said, I think, um doing a little bit more homework a little.

A

Bit more due diligence on some of the direction we provided. Let's get this back on the agenda.

A

Have this conversation, um you need numbers yeah talk to the haulers talk to municipalities, yeah.

A

The haulers municipalities, you you got it anything else, uh please we have the marching orders we'll.

F

Certainly do that. Okay. Can I get a few comments last comments? Is that really not a pleasure.

G

Okay, I just wanted to touch on a couple points to come up here. uh First, commissioner, frazier.

G

Kind of said this, but I wanted to say a little different way. Maybe everybody will get this.

G

The enterprise fund has fixed costs and they've got variable costs if trash goes away. A variable.

G

Cost to us goes away, but the fixed cost remains exactly where it is. If all of our trash went away.

G

We would still have significant fixed costs that doesn't change. uh Commissioner boucher.

G

Said something about the system benefit charge going to the general fund just want to make.

G

Sure everybody understands that is not what would happen if you were to do this, that money would be.

G

Contained in the enterprise fund, it would not be available for any other use.

G

And um yeah christopher bashay was talking about the system benefit charge would have to change.

G

Over time, because costs are going to go up, that's true, but it's also true. If we continue to pay this.

G

With tax dollars, the costs are going to go up and and that's going to change as well. That's.

G

How we go about paying for this isn't going to change the cost of running this operation and.

G

The biggest thing I just want everybody to have in your mind, as you're waiting for more information.

G

The basic problem we have right now is that there is not enough revenue to cover the costs of the.

G

Solid waste enterprise fund, and not only is there not enough, but it's a problem that is growing.

G

With every year whether you do this with a system benefit charge or you use tax dollars, we face the.

G

Same problem in our current plan right now, the uh transfer that is built into your plan is not.

G

Sufficient to cover the costs now we, this is not a someday problem. This is here right now.

E

uh Ted one question: if you were to downsize: how much would that reduce fixed costs.

E

uh Right now, but you know, as we would not bring as much through so you downsize the.

E

Entire operation, which I know we still have fixed costs, but how how many less or how we can make it.

E

Less than what we have that's you know, that's a tough one. Well cliff is probably in a better.

G

Position to talk about this than me, but I don't believe we can downsize in any meaningful way.

F

If you're talking about you know it's a bit, if you're talking about just less tonnage,.

F

You know meaning downsizing, meaning less tonnage coming into the facility.

F

uh It would be just like if we were landfilling full-time, there's, a the same cost, whether you're.

F

Burying three hundred ton a day or a thousand ton a thousand ton a day, that's on the landfill side,.

F

So really, the only thing we can see cost wise is, if, like I said, if there's less tonnage coming in.

F

Yes, the transfer costs would go down, but we'd be losing the overall revenue per ton. That.

F

Takes care of everything else, if you are talking about you know different services.

F

At the facility that's a different conversation but- and I can tell.

F

You we'll probably have these conversations during the budget cycle of the budget review.

F

uh But we operate two to three people down against what we should be operating in anyway.

F

So um we'll then again conversation for another day but from again from service.

F

Standpoint, there's really nothing there that we can eliminate uh that we're not required to do.

H

And the other facility does not take recycling, that's here in the county, so all that would be.

H

100 on us as it is now, they also take very little construction demolition, material.

F

So that's something that we still need an outlet for as well.

E

But we could have a joint venture with some outside.

E

Firms who take that forex and take it off our backs correct.

H

That's what we currently have a contract for our contract is pretty much what the third party is.

E

We did it with mulch. We can do that with a lot of this stuff and.

E

Take the cost away from us anyway, I mean thinking about it. Where couldn't that's coming to what.

H

Right and that's coming soon, as the cost we've been able to renegotiate.

H

And work some deals, but pretty soon mulch will eventually be costing there'll be a fee that bill.

H

Will be coming in because we can't oh, we can't balance that forever at the rate of inflation.

J

Right, similar to our transfer agreement, we we do have agreements with other organizations.

J

And they do take those kinds of trash already. So um so that I mean.

J

Borrowing renegotiating those agreements to benefit the county better.

J

They're that we're already entered into those kinds of agreements with others.

A

Yeah, knowing those agreements and having further discussion on them, I still think we need the.

A

Basics and some of the basics- we just don't have at this point, so if we can get that, then we can.

A

Also, look at other options on how to like you said, joint venture partner or take advantage of other.

A

Projects or programs that are out there, but right now, they're still.

A

The basic fundamental services that we don't understand, you know we have a feel for it.

A

But I think we need some numbers in front of us as we discussed. Okay.

A

Anything else really good group. This was great conversation really appreciate, cliff.

A

Eric and uh jeff, you know the the work that you're doing in uh prepping us and look forward to.

A

Following up with, uh you know, further discussion and then hopefully well not.

A

Hopefully, but uh intent on making a decision at that point so and one one last little thing that.

F

Commissioner boucher was saying you know if it sounds too good to be true again. We've mentioned.

F

Before multiple multiple counties in the state have a system benefit charge or something equal.

F

I don't know that everybody would have that if there wasn't a benefit to it,.

F

I do understand his position. I understand.

F

The question and the concern, but it it is something depending on how it's set up.

F

Does work again differently in every every community, but we will we'll get.

F

That information together also on what the exact details of what the other counties do.

F

And maybe that will help show what the value is or this program can have at our level as well.

F

Okay, cliff eric and jeff. I think you guys did a wonderful job, I'm a little bit tough on people.

I

Once a while but we're all adults- and I absolutely love the debate and I thrive for debate, it makes.

I

Us all think deeper, maybe in the end you'll convince me otherwise, but it's important to.

I

Be challenging because when we challenge you guys and my colleagues and I challenge one another, we.

I

Get deeper into these issues and come out with a better solution, and I think that's.

I

Ultimately, what we all mutually are looking for, so don't take offense to me. I love all you guys.

I

So I appreciate what you're doing so. Thank you very much and we april I appreciate it. I'm sure.

F

We all appreciate the the back and forth it's very beneficial, okay, anything else for the good of the.

A

Group seeing hearing none do I have a motion to adjourn so moved. I got a motion to wait. A second.

D

Second, second, I don't know do I have a second who nobody wants to second to adjourn I'll. Second,.

D

Weaver you can stay on. You have something to say there, commissioner: lance okay. We are adjourned.

A