Carroll County, MD Board of County Commissioners Open Sessions, 11 Apr 2023

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From YouTube: FY24 Proposed Budget Work Session Afternoon April 11, 2023 Afternoon

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https://www.carrollcountymd.gov
Agenda: https://www.carrollcountymd.gov/government/commissioners/board-of-carroll-county-commissioners-weekly-agenda/

A

It is 1pm on april something april 11th we're in our second for the day, work session, we'll see.

A

How long this goes, um I think we covered a lot of ground this morning. I appreciate the conversation.

A

um Before I get started, I do want to share from mr fowler from mike yesterday. He shared with us.

A

What was uh in the budget as far as um bond bills- and he said, 225 thousand dollars for playgrounds.

A

A million dollars for the sheriff's office, five hundred thousand dollars for hempstead fire.

A

Seventy five thousand dollars for playgrounds, carrolltown playgrounds and then another.

A

Fund, I didn't get the number for westminster playgrounds. The initial 225.

A

000 was for playgrounds in the county, for uh I believe the board of education to take on seventy.

A

Five thousand dollars for nate's place playground, I believe, nate's place, is over in freedom.

A

um Nate baker foundation- I think that's where it is, and the nathan baker foundation.

A

Is pretty phenomenal work they do um and then fifty thousand dollars for the ark is what.

A

Mr fowler was, you know, gave me um he'll come in on thursday in open session.

A

To share probably this again and also comments from sign dye, which.

A

Occurred at midnight last night and all the decisions had been made. um I just felt like.

A

You know important to share some of the capital projects and how we came across. There's also.

A

And I don't have the numbers in front of me, but um money that's been allocated for uh broadband.

A

um Across the state- and we received a significant amount, I think close to around nine million.

A

Dollars of broadband funds, um I believe, and the amount of homes I don't have in front of.

A

Me, but it was significant, so continue to press forward with some of these capital projects.

A

Where we left off, I asked the team to share with some of the carroll county.

A

um Tax changes that had occurred, I appreciate the work that's done.

A

And uh it talks about real property, personal property, tax income, tax and recordation and.

A

You know if you start with recreation on the bottom, which we all have 1968 when it.

A

Was created, it was three dollars: thirty cents per 500. and then 95. It went up.

A

No, oh, yes, it went up from 330 to 350. and then in fy03 it went up from 350. to five dollars.

A

um And then the rest is is up there.

A

Hadn't been a lot of changes that I noticed. um Significant ones were.

A

14 or 13 14 15 time frame, dealing with property attacks and income tax, but.

A

The last time there was an increase in real property was 97. the last time there was personal.

A

Property was in zero six and the last time there was an increase in income tax was in 96.

A

Now, in zero four, I apologize in zero four. So, okay with all this said: where do we want to go next.

A

um Ted, did you have any opening comments you want to make? I apologize.

B

Just we've talked a little bit about the need for election space, and I told you that that's kind of.

B

Actively being worked on, we actually have taken some more steps. There's still a lot that we don't.

B

Know we're nowhere near being able to fully define this, but we do have a least possibility. We've done.

B

Some work to try and say what would it cost us to build a building and how those two compare.

B

So, even without us having entered negotiations on a lease, we believe that over a 20-year period, we.

B

Would be better off with the lease than building and there are a few other things in the mix if.

B

We, if we were to build, we don't have a space, so we would need to find land somewhere buy land.

B

We don't know about a water allocation and, as was pointed out in one of your discussions, uh that.

B

Does put you on a different timeline uh building than than leasing? Of course, this is not free and.

B

We think again, this is all before we've negotiated a lease, but just kind of as a starting point.

B

We probably need to be building in about five hundred thousand dollars a year for the lease.

B

And we're gonna need about five million dollars for build out.

B

If we fund that with cash, then the 500 000 a year is in the ballpark, if we're going.

B

To bond that, then we're looking more like a million dollars a year and I believe we.

B

Need to add it to this, this picture. It wasn't in here already, because we just had almost no.

B

Information, but now that we have some some idea, we know this is coming uh what choice we make.

B

These numbers would still be in the ballpark one way or the other at least closer than than starting at zero.

C

So we would get no money from the state for the renovations that would have to.

C

Take place I mean because the five million that's what the five million dollar figure.

C

Would be right, we wouldn't get anything tenant, improvement improvements, yeah all.

C

These I mean all the security we believe there would be state participation.

B

In the building um still some things, we need to check out there, but we've included that in these.

B

Calculations, uh if they'd be in and on on the tenant improvements, we don't have any information.

B

That they would but of course, that's something we would continue to make sure we understood.

B

Like I said, there's a there are still a lot of unanswered questions at this point uh this this.

B

Is really my bringing it up now is just to say, I think it's time for us to build it into the the.

B

Plan, it's it's not a good number, but um it's going to be a lot closer than us, ignoring it.

D

Just quick question so besides, obviously the funding we're looking at here, there's also am.

D

I correct there's also potential grants that could be utilized towards board of elections.

D

And a variety of things seems unlikely. I know I've heard of a few in the past. That's the only reason.

D

I'm asking, I know, there's been things that have been done in previous years, so I wasn't certain.

D

Maybe not here but other places, I'm not aware of any grants, but again we will always look sure.

A

Commissioner, gordon brought up the blueprint and the impact that could have if we took a.

A

Average number of the numbers that we've been looking at um any impact that that would have.

A

Well, it's not going to happen in fy24, but fy25 and forward. It will.

A

So you know that it's kind of like when you talk about income tax, the.

A

You know the miracles over the the glass bowl, what you're, looking at whatever you call it.

A

If we were put it to put a number in there, what do we think collectively would be a number even.

E

To try to game it out to forecast it out, yeah.

A

I mean the two numbers I keep hearing are 32 and 50. 50 million.

E

Fees at 50., as we look at this there's the question of what will the cost of implementation.

B

Be but then there's also the question of how much are we willing to right to take on at.

B

Least until the point, the state tells us what we're going to take on right. Now we have no.

B

State requirement to fund anything more, my guess is: if we're not doing it, that's going to change.

B

But you know we don't know so halfway between 32 and 50 is what 41.. So your crystal ball is.

A

Saying 41 million yeah, I'm you know looking at both numbers between the the low end and.

E

The high end, I figure, if we go somewhere in the middle to to see how it unfolds over time.

E

41 might not be a bad place to start.

C

I mean I how much I don't know how much time we want to spend on this, because.

C

It's probably something we should start discussing on july, 2nd perhaps.

C

I mean we can put a number out there, but we can't even fund it. We don't know.

E

um I think it was just for the sake of curiosity right, I mean just having a general sense of.

E

The future that's a lot of zeros I mean I could have.

B

I don't think so.

B

It's basic school costs. I don't see any way you make it.

B

You know a non-recurring cost or something.

F

Hopefully, somebody.

G

Get your mike's chemistry yeah.

F

Is that on yeah, you know, I I don't disagree with you, but.

A

And again I don't want to trash annapolis, but the likelihood of.

A

Them almost say waking up, but going in a different path is, is gonna, be unlikely because of.

A

You know the jurisdictions that are out there, and this is not focused on carroll county.

A

And we're going to be held accountable for something that is unfortunate. But that's.

A

That's the situation because I agree with you and there is the thought of waiting to the next.

A

Fiscal year, like you said you know, july, first or second starting the conversation um as well.

E

I think also the commissioner garen's point and I know we've been a lot more. You know.

E

We've been trying to be proactive in areas where we could raise our voices about certain things.

E

And I think it's important because if you look at these numbers for the next couple.

E

Of years, fy25 we're at 43 million 26 or 42 5 27 we're at 48 2 28. We're at 54. might as well be.

E

55 and then fy 29 we're 60 million five hundred thousand dollars. I mean that that is staggering.

E

And again, that's assuming that middle road between the 32 and the 50 right.

E

And then ted you were thinking that we should be adding 500.

E

000 a year if, if we're willing to devote one-time money to the build out, if, if we.

B

Want to bond that then we'd look at about a million dollars a year and if, if so, the does that.

E

Reflect on what we were talking about first thing this morning about trying to prevent debt from.

E

Accruing by paying for things with cash yeah same another version of the same kind of thinking. Okay,.

A

Well, those numbers are really ugly yeah.

A

So do we want to take those numbers off for now? I think.

A

As ugly, oh, my only question is: is there any way possible we can physically fund it.

F

I mean you know it's it's as long as we do something so dramatic in taxes that doesn't.

A

Make any sense yeah, so no I mean, I don't believe so and you and you still couldn't get away from.

C

The fact that you are funding a state mandated program that is not doing our county school system.

C

Any good right, so you can never ever going to get away from that, probably hurting us absolutely. It's.

C

In my view, it is so that's the biggest problem, but it's again it's, I guess we'll time will.

C

Tell uh I'm I'm of the mind of commissioner kyler that somebody someplace in annapolis.

C

Wishful thinking realizes this is uh not really going to work for the whole state, but.

C

I had a question going back to this issue of taxes. The recreation fees do. We know where we fall in.

C

The state, generally speaking of my understanding, was that ours, carroll counties were fairly high.

C

I believe we are the highest we're, not alone there. I I think, we're at the top. Okay um and.

C

There was a uh and I'm sorry to put you on the spot. There was a uh you had a microsoft word, doc.

C

Up a little earlier about the history of some of the, I I wouldn't mind getting a copy of that. If, if.

C

It's also reflected in what we gave to you, okay, so that was essentially just yeah. All this is watered.

H

Down, okay, okay, then that's fine man appreciate it just historical purposes. It's always. It's always.

C

Good to know, but I can send you the narrative thanks. It's always good to have the history.

F

Whether jurisdictions have a transfer tax, almost all of them, and how does our recordation compare.

F

To the combination still hot, oh well, if you want to combine them, where we'd be much much.

B

Lower, let's say again: if you combine them we're much lower because they, the transfer.

B

Tax and recreation in most counties are roughly the same thing. So if we, if we had a transfer tax.

B

Right now, our recreation is the equivalent to one percent yeah be more like two percent.

B

um Yeah, so I never really thought about it that way, but yeah, if you look, if you.

B

Look at a very, very similar taxes. uh We we look really good by that standard and the.

F

Five to six is one percent to one point: two percent: yes, so on a 400, 000 home 800 bucks.

F

And that's a one-time.

F

A one-time tax.

A

And we've also had conversations about excise taxes. Is there any room for that commercial.

A

Well again, we would need general assembly approval to give us the authority to to do that.

B

um Excise taxes are much more flexible in their use than impact fees are right.

A

A

And I just I'm not the expert, obviously in excise taxes, but if we can look at the.

A

Impact that excise tax could have um you know moving again. It's not going to be till next.

A

Fiscal year, but even if you're successful, probably be the the year after that, even.

B

Because we wouldn't get okay, general assembly approval yeah until next year, until next year,.

A

Okay, but I mean it's: it's still a tool that we shouldn't. I don't believe neglect that.

A

We should kind of where commissioner guy was going, what are the, what are the activities or actions we.

A

Want to take on as soon as this is over with you know, the general assembly and excise tax.

A

Should be one of them and understand the impact that that could have, um I think, can be important.

A

Especially with some of these areas of growth that we're looking at in the county, that'll, either.

A

Well, slow things down or make them more measured and we get more funding from them. So.

A

Was there anything else.

A

From my colleagues on those wish lists that we received on issues that we want to cover.

A

I know there were some one-time funds and stuff like that, but any especially the ongoing.

D

I'll just bring these up, but before we get to that, I mean ted. You had mentioned.

D

That was it 500 000 cash versus the 5 million for the build out for that other building or what was.

D

The breakdown it was both uh okay. Well, there's two two pieces: they paying the lease which we're.

B

Figuring about 500 000 a year and there's the build out and we're saying it would either be.

B

5 million or so of cash or 500 000 a year for debt service, gotcha.

D

um Hypothetically, do we want to just throw that in the mix for right now, just to see.

D

Where things look like, as we keep moving through all those, I believe we should. We.

B

Know we're going to have to do something. Okay, and now we have some way to quantify it fair enough.

D

um Once we've got that in there um to want to take a look at cc, visa and low sap.

D

Just have a conversation on those since we're going down this list.

F

My vote is now.

F

I think it's setting a bad precedence and.

D

For which all four or for which all four or are you looking just at cc visa? Yes,.

D

I mean I don't know if you want to take them one by one or you want to do them. You want to do that.

A

Well, ccp is the ongoing 80 000 was for what.

E

I think the 80 000 was for the budget shortfall. If I remember correctly, that's.

B

How they characterized it again, this is, this was a matter of internal allocation choices,.

A

Okay, internal to visa.

A

And we're in a position provide visa with a number how they allocated and executed.

A

Is incumbent on them correct, yes, and now they want, above and beyond, with 80 000.

A

I mean what do we give them currently? What's the.

I

uh uh The number is changing now because we're moving from their budget to our.

B

Budget, I'm not even really sure what we're giving them now visa used to be about 14.

G

Million dollars, but now as we transition, I think it's slightly less than that. Yeah.

J

Of what they are keeping, they got three percent increase and they also got an additional 64.

J

000 in their base budget this year, outside of the three percent for vehicle and building maintenance.

J

Because they were able to demonstrate the cost there were going up, so they actually got a little.

J

Bit more than three percent in their base. So so it sounds to me that we should not provide visa.

A

With the additional eighty thousand correct right, I would agree I'd be in agreement with you. There.

B

It answers the question: how much are we funding them now, as things stand.

B

uh For what they still have of ems about 2.7 million and then visa about 5 million, okay.

A

So on these issues, taking visa requirement or request, excuse me off the table.

A

The low sap reducing the age 60 to 55.

A

Isn't this just a study that wants to be done or no.

B

They're they want to change. We would have to do a study to understand what it's going to cost.

B

There were a couple other things in the mix here and first just a reminder: you.

B

Know this is a standalone fund. We pay the benefits out of a dedicated pot of money.

B

We were some years trying to get that into a solid position, which I think our next actuarial.

B

Study putting aside any changes is going to show we're in a good position now now, of course, if.

B

You add, benefits costs go up and that changes that position now visa was making the argument, and this.

B

Was interesting because I've never heard this from them before that we are making the calculations.

B

Based on too great a number of volunteers that there aren't that many active volunteers.

B

um That worries me some because we've been funding physicals for volunteers for years, presumably on.

B

That same number, that that's another story but they're saying once we've accounted for how many.

B

There actually are, because we've been funding for too many that maybe the benefits can happen.

B

Without an increase in funding, I don't know that I'm just saying that's the argument that they made.

E

And so, commissioner, ross and you're saying they were looking for a study to determine this, where they're actually looking for the money to fund it.

A

We would be doing a study yeah they they want the money, they want. The benefits right, I'm just saying.

B

We we can't quantify this without having a study done. I have no way to tell you what it would be.

E

The study or the the benefits are both the benefit. What the cost of the benefits would be. The impact.

G

On the on the plan, if we um so that there's a actuarially defined contribution um that we are.

G

Supposed to make each year and um to say states to remain fully funded or close there too, and.

G

um If we, without knowing what that contribution without having to study, we wouldn't know what.

G

That contribution would be yeah, I apologize, so the board could go ahead and enrich the benefits.

G

um And then, when the study were was done, we would just find out how badly out of our compliance so.

G

To speak, we would be, what can we do? Can we do the study prior to anything I mean yeah sure, but then.

G

That wouldn't be wouldn't be completed in time for this budget year, so you could set it up for 25.

D

Well, I don't want to speak for anybody else, but I think if we're going to potentially.

D

Look at funding I'd rather do the study and then fund it versus fund it and then do this study. I.

D

Think that's kind of backwards. If, if we want to fund the study itself I'll leave that as an if.

E

And you have any concept at all about the cost of the study or that's just totally up in the.

E

Air right now, twenty five hundred dollars, two thousand five hundred dollars. That's the easy part.

A

Yeah, so why not do the study and then.

A

Yeah fy25, that's fine as long as there's interest, although this is.

B

Another one of those places where I'd say: if, if the board isn't interested.

B

In increasing the benefits, then there's no point in doing the study. So if you're.

B

If if at least three of you say yes, we would be interested in doing that, then we get to.

B

Get the study done, but what you're saying we shouldn't do a study unless we're willing to.

A

Put the increases, or at least it is still a consideration in your in your mind, of course,.

B

Yeah, the study's going to tell you is going to give you more to operate on. You know if this is.

B

Going to cost fifty thousand dollars and I'd don't think, that's the answer that might lead.

B

You to a different answer than if it's going to cost five hundred thousand dollars a year.

C

I would support. I would support that study sometime at fy24, considering everything that's.

C

Going on with the fire departments and everything that's going on with the volunteer forces.

C

It may not be a bad idea and, let's remind ourselves these, these individuals are they're.

C

Already working for free, so if we have a little better understanding, I mean I think I think some.

C

Of the onus, though, is going to have to fall on cc visa to help us with these actual numbers, though,.

C

I mean we need an accurate count of who's active. Some people leave and come back. Some people never.

C

Come back I mean we, we just don't know for certain. So that's got to be an aspect of this study right.

C

Yes, absolutely- um and I don't know this, but I don't believe visa has numbers. I think each.

B

Company each corporation, how many volunteers they have right and they tell and they tell.

G

um Visa um one thing that will help as we transition the volunteers in order to.

G

Stay will will be needing background checks and um and wheels will be conducted, not not that we're.

G

Adopting them, but you know, have the contractor will be conducting them, so we will have. We should.

G

Have better numbers of who's a volunteer and who's, not who should be counted and who should.

G

That's good good point yeah at the moment we rely on other people's information in that that's data.

G

Yeah but we don't need a data analyst. Oh [laughter],.

B

So that's that that would be the first time we have really direct information, and I guess in.

B

Theory somebody who's not active, could still end up getting a background check, but even.

B

From their own point of view, they probably don't want to go through a background check.

B

If they're not putting in the time so that should get us a pretty good number.

C

Yes, I I certainly am, I think, the timing's good, that's supportive yep sounds good. Thank you.

B

So we can make get, we can get that rolling and if you're going to do it um I'd say given the.

B

Small costs we might, we might as well just contract, for it now get it as soon as we can.

G

Might be able to be done before you before you finish the.

G

Final budget work sessions in may- I don't know yeah.

A

Other thoughts just to go yes,.

E

So what is our current bottom line?.

E

Thank you very much. The.

A

I mean the gloom and doom on revenue on things that we can.

A

Touch property, income and recreation.

A

Without saying what we want to do in any of these, are there.

A

Ones that are in your minds completely off the table saying this is not.

A

What you want to either have a conversation about or pursue or x. um You know, there's there's.

A

Three that we have the ability, there's others, that we have the ability to go to the general.

A

Assembly like excise, which I think you know, is a potential but that's longer term impact.

A

um We're even getting it in place bless you.

A

But we've got the spreadsheet and the word document that kind of kind of lay it out.

A

And I don't take lightly, especially what commission garen said about ask that.

A

Because people don't care if it's county state or federal, it's money out of their pockets and that.

A

That's what's reality so.

A

Even though commissioner kyler says well, your house is getting more valuable, you're.

A

Going to sell it someday you're going to die, that's a different story. So what.

A

Are what what are your thoughts, I'm kind of like throwing this out there.

E

The topic of taxes and and let's look at the bottom line, one more time so.

A

Yeah yeah go ahead, joe, I'm sorry! No! That's! Okay! So.

E

We and we ended up where we are now. What was the two point.

E

286 yeah yeah.

E

And that's, including the sheriff's, build out and everything? No! No! That's not.

E

I thought we had something in there for build up or build out. That's a board of elections. Oh I'm.

E

Sorry, I'm sorry, okay, that's not sure, but that's using one-time surplus funds right, bringing that.

H

Over in the revenue to pay for it, so it doesn't have an impact on the bottom line. At this point,.

A

Yeah we haven't even talked to sheriff yet but okay, so all right, I I'm a little confused. I.

E

Will admit that we went from 1.7 to 2.286? That's what did I I'm excels in for at least okay. Yes,.

B

Good budget handles question, though we're always looking at this stuff and say: wait a second why'd that change foreign.

E

Discussion a little further right again, it's I know it's all up in.

E

The air- and I know that we're we're- we really have no genuine idea about.

E

How it's going to proceed, but we do know that there is some kind of a range and I would not be.

E

Uncomfortable with removing another half a million from pfos, which would get us back to the 1.7.

E

If everybody's interested in seeing that number yeah, because that would still give.

E

Us a 3 million for the pfos, but then that would take us up to two that we're taking.

E

Out which would get us back to the 1.7 in 24. right, right, okay, she so sure what that looks.

A

Like yeah and and you know you understand, it just affects 24 right right. You said to.

H

2 million right two million dollar reduction. Thank you! Okay, and that takes us back to 1.786.

C

. and I'd also like to go back to that recommended budget and.

C

Make some additional changes? My colleagues agree. Look at a four percent increase.

C

As opposed to the original five and a half percent for staff, that's four percent.

A

That's all we did that. I think we went to four and a half. Yes, oh dear okay,.

C

C

uh I know that the board of the the board of education came in with the 6.7 million.

C

Dollar increase, above with the recommended budget included, I would propose uh that.

C

Becoming a 5.2 million increase, as opposed to 6.7, while we try to make some of these.

C

Decisions did we take it where we need to be well, you took a million. Would you.

H

uh Yes, we did that earlier yeah, a million, so it'd be a million and a half off yes correct.

A

So that would be down to what I'm sorry.

I

F

What what was the additions? Additional salary for.

G

That's the increase, that's the salary increases for staff. That was.

B

Right, additional one-half we're removing an additional one-half from what was in.

B

The recommended for salary increases: well, we so we we removed one right. We went from five and a half.

B

To four and a half, and commissioner garen just suggested, dropping it another half percent to.

A

Four, instead of four and three point, five is colon: if we decide it is yeah that would be determined.

B

I that is not a that's, not fixed. Okay, I got it well. Okay, I mean.

A

I don't necessarily agree yet, but I definitely want to see it played through. You know how.

C

Well, it is a work session yeah, you know, yeah absolutely I mean yeah, it's just. We got to be.

C

Honest with ourselves and with people watching right, we don't have the money and none of us.

C

Really want to raise taxes, uh certainly I don't. I don't want to discuss any of these four options so.

C

um At least not now.

A

What is our workforce right now as far as.

A

Or delta, do we know I mean? Are we at 10 percent, just commissioner employees yeah.

G

Heard lately I can find out, I mean all the work we've done to sustain the workforce to allow the.

A

Services to be conducted in the county, my concern is we're going to be taking a step backwards and.

A

You know, folks, may not all see the services that are done from work, crews that are on.

A

The roads and stuff but or the landfills or other places, but it is significant and we are.

A

Probably as thin as thin can be, are you asking about number of vacancies yeah.

A

I just- and this is going to have a ripple effect on that as we continue to age.

A

um Our workplace, our workforce right and keep in mind these the built-in recommended increases.

G

Are not only for commissioner employees, the 750 souls directly and that they're also the courts.

G

The state's attorney et cetera, et cetera, so so in order for us to maintain the services we've.

A

Got to do something and, like you said, we're still at a delta with revenue, so we either got to look.

A

At or delta with uh you know, expert we still can't pay for even this. What we're trying to accomplish.

G

A

I mean nobody wants to talk about taxes, because it's a bad word, but we've got to focus on if we're going to continue to.

A

Not even grow our services, but maintain them sustain them. We got to do something and.

A

I mean I I don't know I mean I we're chipping away education and I feel like we're not even.

A

We're not the experts in education, except for one that has been. You know there for quite some time.

A

On what their needs are and we're saying, no, you don't need that we're going to lower your.

A

You know your the money you're going to receive, even though you said you need this.

A

And I believe education, safety security is the top and we haven't even touched the sheriff yet.

A

I, in order to do both of those we need to touch the revenue.

A

And for not willing to touch the revenue, I'd be very interested. Somebody saying: okay, these.

A

Are the other things we're not going to do that? Don't affect our safety security or our education.

F

I could discuss recreation taxes, but no other ones. This year.

A

In which the last time it was touched was 3.5, I think, to five in 20 years ago.

A

20 years ago it was discussed to bringing it to five to six.

A

What would that do to our bottom line? 3.1 million- it was about 3 million. Wasn't it yes, yeah.

A

We haven't touched it.

C

So, keep in mind that that that that doesn't just affect people who are.

C

Moving to carroll county that affects people who are moving within carroll county as well so.

C

I agree and um but but like I say, four hundred thousand dollar house, it's 800 difference of that.

F

Makes or breaks you buying a 400 000 house on yeah, I'm.

F

Not sure and we don't have impact fees, we did yeah.

C

And I think your your staff, a few months back, somebody put together.

C

Some information on impact versus excise, and- and that was me that was you okay, so.

C

We do have some information on that. Just for uh we have impact fees. We.

G

Okay, you do have a park impact, I mean it's, it's still above zero.

G

Okay, okay, well, we don't have, like you said is: is excise which has an opportunity to get us.

A

Income yeah, but impact because we do they're just set at zero.

A

um Okay and there's such the impact fees are very limited, use correct to be paying for the.

G

Impact that that new development, basically the additional development, creates in the system.

C

But in into the the comment earlier, taxes are a bad word because people are used to.

C

Having more money taken out of their pocket and then watching their governments, whether.

C

It's the federal state or local governments spend more and it's never enough. It's never.

C

Enough am I I mean that that's the issue that we're dealing with the site in addition to that.

C

We are looking at, I feel, and I think a lot of people feel an economic downturn.

C

Of sorts people's taxes are going up, everyone's getting less returns than they did a year ago.

C

People's inflation supposed to go up another seven and a half percent this year in certain areas.

C

Assessments are up, I mean people are already paying more.

C

um So that's why I'm fundamentally opposed to having that discussion right now, so you I mean.

C

You asked the question and for me the answer is no now the recidation issue I asked earlier.

C

Where we are in the state, because we we don't want to, we don't want to hurt ourselves having.

C

It too high either, but you know it hasn't been raised for a while. So that's something to look.

C

At it's probably good we're having the discussion at least you can always have it again next year.

E

And I agree, commissioner garen, you know we say that taxes are a bad word and, and you.

E

Know it's because they do end up hurting some people. They do end up in making a.

E

Difference and then, commissioner rossi- and I know you know this, I know I'm not.

E

Saying this to be argumentative or anything, I know you do not want to raise taxes either. um It's.

E

They really do you know like we discussed last week. They do have a real world effect.

E

And I know we're here trying to to balance numbers on a screen right now to make our budget work.

E

um But you, but again you know I had mentioned last week: people are using tax refund money to.

E

Pay for food and if they're at that level, then you know increasing income, taxes or property.

E

Taxes is not a smart thing to do when they're having difficulty affording something to eat.

A

They say this: we have 170 plus thousand folks in our community and how can we best serve at 170 000.

A

Folks and plus, to include our education, which is second to none, to include establishing a fire ems.

A

To having you know, a share of and his department, that is again second to none everything they do.

A

Numbers have increased, the workforce has not increased.

A

It has actually decreased the the recreation 2003.

A

Well, after that, a hundred folks from our workforce went away well after that.

A

10 years after that, when 800 folks went away, the services stayed in place.

A

So taxes went down, workforce went away. Services stayed in place to think that that can actually.

A

Be sustained over time is really difficult. I mean it's just it's, it cannot be sustained.

A

um So something's got to give. We either stop doing certain services that are expected.

A

um Or we work towards maintaining, not increasing the services, just maintaining them.

A

With the workforce that we have, which is a hundred less than it, was after these taxes were adjusted.

A

um You're right, I don't like talking about taxes, I don't, but I do like talking about what services do.

A

Our commute, what do they deserve as a whole? I mean yeah there'll, be naysayers on social media. I know.

A

Type, whatever they want, they'll be five or ten people saying this or saying that they'll be the.

A

Kids, parents with uh kids in schools praising this. You know because they'll go to town halls.

A

And say: yeah: we are all willing to raise taxes because our kids deserve it. That's that crypt and.

A

We'll have another group saying something else, but if we look at this holistically.

A

um Just over the last three decade or two decades excuse me: there have been this changes.

A

In revenue changes in workforce, the one thing that's never changed is the services that our.

A

Local government has provided- and I believe, the services that our local government has provided.

A

Is second to none and could actually be better and its aging. So that's my.

A

Reason: rationale to get us to a point where: how do we maintain the services.

E

And commissioner, I respect the discussion I do and I apologize if you felt like I was not no.

E

But uh so so do we have any numbers.

E

As far as the recreation tax is concerned, the the sales do, we know how what percentage.

E

Of them are new residents to the county versus existing residents of the county.

E

Because if the you know some years ago- and I forget exactly when it was but some years ago.

E

There were some economists who did a study, I think, was called like how money walks or something and.

E

You could go to a map of the united states county by county and see where their counties had income.

E

That was shifting to or away from those particular counties based on where people were moving based.

E

On tax rates- and so I'm wondering if we have more people who are moving into this county from.

E

Wealthier areas versus people moving from one side of the county to the other, and I'm wondering if.

E

Commissioner, kyler's suggestion of the recreation increase is not a way to temporarily deal with the.

E

Revenue side of things so that way, for example, if I'm not moving anywhere in the county, this.

E

Year, I'm not paying taxes, I'm not having to have an increase in my income or my property taxes, but.

E

If I'm coming from montgomery county or frederick county or from somewhere else, it's a wealthier.

E

Area than we are, I am going to pay an extra eight hundred dollars or whatever it was to move into.

E

The county and if we have impact fees which are set at zero, which and I'll be honest, I'm not.

E

Quite sure why those are the case, and if you want to enlighten me, I'm perfectly willing to to learn.

E

But if we have, you know a number of other options, other than increasing taxes on people that we're.

E

Not utilizing, why are we not utilizing those I so anecdotally, and I think it's probably the same for.

C

For district five as well, there, there are a lot of people trying to move to the southern part of the.

C

County from outside of the county houses are on the market for maybe a day in the mount airy area.

C

And they're getting a dozen or plus offers so again, anecdotally, 552.

C

uh Yeah, even the houses in zimmet are going for about 150 or 200.

C

000 more than anybody thought they would so it's there's definitely something afoot there, but the.

C

Question, then, is why why do people want to move here and to address some of the questions earlier.

C

I think they want to move to carroll county because it is a slightly cheaper place to live.

C

And because there's something about carroll county that is missing from their surrounding counties,.

C

And I don't know if they're necessarily moving here for for services, but I do. I do appreciate.

C

The argument that you make about how important it is, so that's my two cents on the influx, but.

C

I think there's definitely you see it a lot down in the southwestern part of the county.

C

Probably the same as yours I mean I moved here for the schools. I moved here because the horses.

A

You know take my horses, uh the schools, I moved here for all the reasons why I want.

A

To live here in carroll county, exactly the same and um they've just gotten better. You know now.

A

There's a twist in this and unfortunately it's called annapolis that we have to deal with or.

A

Own up to and we don't have a choice. You have to go ahead. Commissioner, vignati's questions.

B

We would have to check I I wonder if we would have the authority to create a recordation.

B

Tax that only applies to certain sales, you know to say, if you're moving here, you pay it. But if.

B

You're living here already, you don't and on the impact fees. The reason we have it set at zero.

B

Use of impact fees is very restrictive. It's tied to providing an existing level of.

B

Service to basically a growing population for schools, the key there is enrollment.

B

And we went through a decade of declining enrollment and then stagnant for a while. We this.

B

Year, it looks like we're going to have something like 400, kids growth so, and this is something the.

B

Commissioners could consider do you, do you want to put the in fact impact fee in place again.

B

um But even that is is not that easy, because you have to use it. The level.

B

Of service would be providing capacity for those students right now. We have capacity.

B

In carroll county now in the south carol people argue right. I don't have capacity at my school.

B

But um impact fees apply the whole county and we do have capacity. So maybe the situation will be.

B

Changing, but for where we, where we have been collecting those impact fees that would not.

B

Be able to be used would mean that eventually we would have to give the money back to the people.

B

We collected from and that's an administrative nightmare. There was no point in in doing that when.

B

We knew pretty clearly that that's where we would end up that we'd have to give it back to them.

B

um If we find ourselves with steadily growing population again and the capacity of the.

B

System declines, then maybe that story changes. What about for public safety.

E

Do we have a public safety impact fee? We do not, we we have. We have two schools and parks. We have.

B

Looked at other impact fees, it's been a while since we have- and you can find all kinds of things.

B

um You have to remember you know again. The impact fee is to provide an existing level.

B

Of service to a growing population, you know, even even with law enforcement right now, our.

B

Population is not growing very quickly, we're growing, but in a very modest way, uh and the.

B

The level of service would provide, you know, would probably be a number of officers per.

B

Thousand citizens, or something like that, you know right now, I'd say that's not changing very quickly.

B

But again it's one, you can look at and you have the authority to do it.

B

You can create another impact fee. If you choose, it, just has to be considered.

B

Carefully because you have to be able to for your to to legally defend it, you have to be.

B

Able to demonstrate the tie between collecting this money and what's going to be done with it,.

E

So, for example, could a new sheriff's complex fall under the auspice of a public safety tax.

E

Or storage facilities for department of fire and ems vehicles- or I are there ways that we could.

E

Make a public safety impact fee translate into the capital expenditures that we're being faced with.

B

I'm not going to say no, but remember part of this is providing an existing level of service.

B

So if you're providing infrastructure that doesn't exist now it's hard to make that argument.

E

Even if providing the same level of service necessitates the creation of new facilities in.

E

Order to provide those services, and that's why I said I'm not going to say no it just. It becomes a.

B

Harder to defend action, and in the end I mean that's really what this comes down to is.

B

You have to say, if we're taken to court over this.

B

You know some developer says I don't believe you have an appropriate methodology for.

B

This impact fee, I'm going to court to have them, say that you want to be in a position.

B

Where you can say, we believe we can lay out the methodology that will stand, stand the test and so.

E

I know I'm coming out of left field with this, as they say.

E

Is there a figure or a number that we could apply to a scenario with this? Well, I'm like.

E

A hundred dollar impact fee or something or is that too cheap, is that too expensive.

B

B

It's not like setting the property tax rate where you could just say what do we want? It.

B

To be, you have to be able to demonstrate that the use the amount you're going to collect is.

B

An approach is appropriate for the need to be met, so we would need to be. We would need to determine.

B

How are we going to use this money? What do we think that would cost um how much how many.

B

Homes are the impact fees going to be applied to and then see, does it all hang hang together, but to.

B

Get you know, give you some sense of where we are. You know for for many years, the school impact fee.

B

Was approximately six thousand dollars uh the rec? The parks impact fee is approximately 600 dollars.

G

We don't have the authority to create additional.

G

Impact fees right we'd have to go to the general assemble for that.

B

I was thinking we do, but I I might be wrong.

C

Statistical did you just the impact fee on new residential construction was six thousand.

C

Dollars before they got rid of it. Yes, I did not realize it was that high. Neither did I.

B

Mean it was actually a bit more than six thousand and it was not it was. There was.

B

A different number for different, like a single family home, was different from.

B

Duplexes, but they were in the ballpark of six thousand. When did that change.

B

That we stopped doing it yeah, uh I don't remember exactly, but when the school enrollment started.

B

Declining so 12 years ago, 13 years ago, okay yeah, I think it was the 59th board.

B

Yeah it could be. I don't remember because I think last weekend I think the gentleman was saying that.

E

Enrollment is projected to be slow but steady right, and so, if an impact fee on new construction.

E

I don't know, maybe something we need to look at well. It doesn't have again that.

A

The challenge is that down in the southern part of the county,.

A

We may be busting at the seams, but in the middle in the northern part of the county were not and.

A

That's why we started doing this redistricting drill and having conversations, because.

A

We're not going to get funding if there is capacity available across the county. You know.

A

It we don't localize it to one part of the county or not and keep in mind that impact fees aren't.

B

Going to affect this picture, it gives you another source of funding on the capital side right, which.

B

Could reduce debt but even there remember we have dedicated money for school construction. So when.

B

We take on school debt, we also transfer money from there, so it never affects your bottom line.

E

And obviously a public safety tax would affect things on that.

E

Side of the budget as well in future years, operating operas operating yeah.

B

Yes, if, if you made it available for operating operating purposes,.

B

um What it would do, potentially, would be to keep operating costs from going up.

B

You you wouldn't be able to use it to offset existing costs, but if you did something new, then.

B

Maybe you could have a no net change so, for example, like a public safety, complex.

B

Okay, well, if we go to capital, oh I'm sets it aside in another area anyway,.

B

So if it replaces debt that we would have taken on then yes, it will help your bottom line.

H

2013 collected yeah the last time that we collected was fy 12 for school impact fees,.

H

It seems like a whole lot happened, 12 and 13., where things were changed. Well, you know this. I.

B

Would argue it was not a philosophical change this. This was a reaction to circumstances.

B

And okay, I don't, I don't believe there was any choice: yeah, the declining enrollment, yes, yeah,.

A

A

The other large topic besides this has been the sheriff's office.

A

And the two requests that he's making one is a degree stipend and the other is.

A

Seventeen hundred dollars for multiple you know: dealings uh pension, payroll.

A

Taxes over time, night, etc. Okay, that note is just saying he asked for salary increase, but.

B

That affects other costs. We just say that total covers everything. Okay, so he's not.

A

Asking for federal taxes? No, no okay, but he's asking for the 1700 that's going to affect.

A

But is he also asking for a child support position.

A

He's not, how is this affecting the child support position.

K

Yes, it requires some general fund um on the grant, so it's a grant funded position and.

B

This would have an impact there, so it's just another note saying we calculated that into it.

A

All of a sudden, I feel like saying, don't mind the person behind the curtain with these notes.

B

um Yeah well, the big message to take from that is we're. We are.

B

Capturing all the costs that would be related to making this change.

F

What what pay in greece was he asking for.

E

uh You mean percentage-wise.

L

That's a little harder to answer um only because it affects the different.

L

Pay scales in different ways, so the civilian pay scale versus the corrections versus law.

L

Enforcement, okay, but put all that aside. Yes, I know they won't apply it this way, but if it's.

L

I will look at what what exactly that is, but the biggest percentage would be to law.

L

Enforcement yeah because he said this was to get them in the 50 cent fall. I think it was.

G

For detention, mostly westerns as well, I think it's attention too. I think the law enforcement.

A

Who's done a few years ago to get them into the 50th percentile. Okay- and I mentioned this to you-.

B

Earlier, I want to remind you again, I think you need to think carefully about tying your action.

B

To that idea, because what that's saying is other jurisdictions are going to make choices on how.

B

To fund things- and you are going to be driven by the choices that somebody else is making correct.

F

And we have recreation tax in here for now, and I think I need to say if that's what we want to do.

F

I want the 500 000 put back into education and uh the raises back at four and a half percent.

F

That's the only way I would agree to that, but I don't know if everybody else feels the same way.

F

Or not, and uh I don't think you do yet and I'm curious what that percentage would be, because.

F

Segment of carroll county employees, the last year got very, very good raises, and I don't feel like.

F

If people that got a 15 to 20 percent raise last year, if only getting five percent this year hurts.

F

Retention, then last year should never happen again with the sheriff there's been some very.

F

Substantial raises- and I agree we don't want to tie it. I don't like that when I hear from.

F

The teachers union well howard county, pays this well by car and go to howard county. um You know.

F

We we're not tied to them and they work a longer day. Their standard living's, different blah blah.

F

Blah you know, but so I don't like that either, but that's why it was curious. Curious now does his.

F

Recommended budget before this have the increases in it. Yes, there's four percent.

B

Four percent built in to the recommended again for the sheriff's office. Yes, so.

A

um I agree with you and it does become concerning when everyone comes to us with a comparison with.

A

Other jurisdictions, frederick, montgomery, howard, baltimore county, I'm like okay, I got that you.

A

Know, let's talk about you know others like washington and charles and cecil and harford.

A

And others that are more aligned similar to us yeah uh in both culture and values.

A

um Not seeing ones are different, you know or wrong and whatever, but uh um if we're going to make.

B

Comparisons- and I think there is value in doing it and I don't think we should tie our methodology to.

B

Other jurisdictions, but I think, there's value in comparing yeah but but I would argue that.

B

Generally speaking, there's more value in us comparing to frederick baltimore county and.

B

Howard county, just because that's where people are like so now with law enforcement and fire.

B

That might be a little bit different in that you have some people because of schedules who.

B

Will drive longer longer distances, so I'm not saying it's the same for for everything, but.

B

You know a decision to move or change your job from here to frederick is different than from.

B

Here to montgomery or here to washington, you know it's also cost of living people living.

A

In adams, county and other parts uh in southern pennsylvania I mean there's lots of different.

A

Dynamics to quality of life for for folks- um and we know that um I I agree with you-.

A

Thank you. I wonder if it'll just be a wash, though.

A

If we do it that way, you want to see how the numbers work out. Yeah.

A

I mean is that okay, what's the current number real, quick just out of curiosity.

B

The bottom line bottom line yes well, she's, getting there.

B

um Heidi did the calculation the what the sheriff is asking for is uh there's the four.

B

Percent already built in he's looking for another five percent. On top of that, that's that that's.

B

Just an average, though that doesn't mean he's going to apply it five percent to every position.

A

And the increase last year for the sheriff was what it was: a two-year increase of 34 percent.

A

It was a two-year increase of 34 percent.

I

E

It was 34 each year, 34 percent brought across both years total total.

G

Ted, um we would have to go to the general assembly for any additional impact fees.

G

We have a moment, but we're certain: that's not the case for recreation, oh no, you can raise and lower.

C

Those before right, great just can't add any new ones without totally where you have authority for.

B

A tax you can set the rates. uh Of course now the state does have the cap on income tax property.

B

Tax and recreation have have no caps, although they could act to create a cap if they chose to so.

A

I'm sure kyler was asking about putting back the education dollars. Oh yeah, I might.

B

Say that they're? No, so we've had different people now put different things in here to.

B

Say what would this look like, so we're getting to a complicated place now, where okay, you all.

B

Haven't agreed to anything but there's various lines of input: yep gotcha and that's fair, um so.

A

Live is 82. hold on I'll shut up. I'm gonna hide these rows, so you can see the actions.

H

That were taken, okay or not actions, but right directions need to be taken.

H

There you go, this is a revenue, and these are additional. These are reductions in expenses, so.

A

Start with pfas everybody did with that. Yes, yes, okay,.

A

What's underneath b, pass that half percent salary reduction reduction from the four.

G

And a half to four okay, so now these three are tied together. According to commissioner kyler.

A

No and that's fine: um okay, recreation! Oh wait! I'm sorry, commissioner callers talking you're.

E

Tying the p fast reduction I'll only go along with recreation increase if the salary goes.

F

Back to four and a half and uh board of ed goes back to a million, but not p, you're, okay,.

E

With p fast, I'm okay with pfas and those those two changes are directly undoing changes. The.

B

Commissioner garen, I understand right now. I just want to make sure we're all standing, yeah yeah.

B

No right stay together on and he's okay with how this is getting complicated. I'm not okay,.

B

I understand a guy may vote different ways on this. Okay, so with that said,.

A

We can go with all three first. Is that a motion for you to go with the changes.

A

In other words, the recordation and putting back the um salary and board of education to where it.

G

Was as they're listed here, they're neighbors, those two, the salary and the board of ed are.

G

Negatives here, so you want those to be back to where they were yes and have the recreation go.

F

From five to six go from five to six: okay, can we look at the numbers before we vote.

E

I mean we, don't we don't have to vote on them to see. That's fine or I'm sorry.

E

When putting back the board of ed and putting back the salary, can we see what.

E

Those numbers are before we vote on whether or not that's the way that we want to go.

F

Sure there you go and that puts us at 1.3 over okay yeah yeah to the black.

E

Yeah so then 25 are off. 26 are back on 27 and beyond we're off again.

B

And the 25, you know a number like that in the scope of what we're dealing with here.

B

That I don't see that as a problem, you know the 20 7 and beyond the problem.

A

A

The change in recreation, from five to six, along with taking those.

A

To the salary in the board of education, does everybody understand what we're.

A

Saying what I'm trying to say, although muddling through it yeah, I just admired, I know the caution.

C

Would be we, I mean the recognition increases we may if we want to make any adjustments down on.

C

Those between now and we in the budget. We need to be aware of that, and we also probably need.

C

To understand what I think we've been warned previously is that that number may not continue.

C

To stay the same, it may go down yep, absolutely and at some point it's got to go down right. I mean the.

C

Like um somebody alluded to earlier the market's just so hot right now, it's not going to stay.

C

That way forever, are you comfortable with the recreation tax for now yeah? For, for now I mean.

C

Again, we we may, we may we may break and we'll come back in a couple days and realize that's.

C

May not be a good number anymore for now. Yes, yeah, there's. Definitely a difference between comfort.

A

Acceptance and yeah yeah, so yeah everything's still just proposed correct. Absolutely okay,.

A

So making those adjustments? Are we good with that good, good? Okay, we're good with that.

B

Going back to something I was saying earlier,.

B

We're now in a position where you can balance fy 24.. Now there might be other decisions. You.

B

Still want to make that unbalance it again, but right right now we can get there so.

A

Now, having a conversation about the sheriff okay before you go there, just one okay say.

B

um So we can get 24 balanced pending other decisions. The question, I think you all need.

B

To ask yourself, though, is: are we willing to live with what fiscal year 29 looks like.

A

What's 29 look like 12 million.

B

That was not a leading question just saying I think I think you should specifically say: yes, we're, okay with it or no we're not.

F

F

We probably over lunch, got an email from the library how.

F

My my humble opinion when we went from 689 170 to whatever it was half that 345.

F

She would still have a five and an eight percent increase.

F

She had sent an email that by cutting this in half, were keeping her from meeting minimum wage and.

F

And we we also did not. We did not do the other positions. Now I haven't done the math.

B

You know she sent another email saying what the cost of implementing minimum wage was.

B

If they just addressed the bottom three scale- and that was a hundred and 119 120.

B

000 dollars so when she was making the argument for the increase, it was not.

B

Based on that 120, but just on what it would take to give an increase that she thought was.

B

I'll say appropriate she might might say necessary yep, so she has half of what she was looking at for.

B

Where they were, and then you put another 120 000 on that and that's that's the case, she's making.

F

And I guess I'd be curious, would you rather have the other 120.

F

Or the positions, because I don't see both and it was my understanding she wanted the.

A

Positions more than the I I know you said that, but I really struggle to believe that that's.

B

The case yeah well, I had a conversation with her and she said about positions I mean it was.

A

Clear, I wonder she'd still say that if it's an either or- and I don't well.

A

Maybe get her, you know having that conversation.

A

And that's fine, we can. You can do that.

A

Because right, where we're at right there, I'm struggling with the board of ed and.

A

Ag preservation, you know- and I know we're doing it because we have to do it.

E

And I know it's not sustainable and I know it's not a long-term solution, but we could.

E

Always we could plug in one million dollars from the surplus to ag pres.

E

Again, I know it's not everybody's favorite idea, and I know that it's not a sustainable thing, but.

B

If you want to put it in explicitly as one-time money.

B

I don't think there's anything wrong with that yeah. The problem is just if you put it in.

B

For to fill an ongoing purpose that you can't yeah, that makes sense yeah. I think essentially.

F

What you want to do is use surplus to replace the ongoing money we took out.

F

For this year, yeah for this year, only I like that, which is yeah, I'm good with that.

D

In other words, that put us as a starting point for next year, though, what's for that number to.

D

Be at the same number we're at currently, I assume and it'd be down yes, 1.5, better understanding from.

E

This year, for that I apologize, we only take the 1 million out for this year for aggress we took.

A

It on go for perpetuity yeah. It was ongoing unless you modified up sure. No. I thought it was just this.

E

Year too, I'm mistaken, then I don't believe so. According to what was up there, it was ongoing.

A

Ongoing right, yeah yeah, it's ongoing, that's what I we took out on going, but I think what you're.

F

Saying is you'd like to use surplus for this year only to put them back at the amount they would.

F

Have had but next year we need to discuss it again, but you also had the expectation that it was not.

A

Ongoing that is also true, but if we can, you know manage a stop gap this year with 1 million and.

E

Then have the discussion next year about putting ag press back to the 2.5 from property taxes.

E

You know I'm okay with having the discussion next year, it's better than what it is now.

A

I mean which- and I agree with I just you know I would, and I would much rather have ag pres.

E

Continue with that 2.5, but I'm willing to have the discussion again next year I mean I don't.

E

Think there's going to be any year where we're going to have an easy discussion about the budget.

D

So, just to make sure we have, unless there is a miraculous change in revenue or suddenly.

B

Some costs go away right, we're not going to have any different cover.

B

Any different basis for conversation next year than we are yeah this year.

A

Well, except if blueprint becomes, you won't have the basis for any better conversation, got it yeah.

A

That's correct: yes, only going to get harder, it's going to get yeah. I think it's going to just the.

C

Economy as well, I just don't think it's that we're going to be hit with a strong wins on that yep.

A

F

So, what's the bottom now.

H

That was making the assumption that surplus would fund one million dollars and 20.

H

4 for ag press, so the bottom line stayed the same right, yep and.

D

And that's putting egg press with a surplus wet at two now, instead of the.

D

2.5 it was previously. Is that correct, oh yeah, two right, but did you want it to be.

G

2.5, I just want to clarify where that put it. I wasn't sure where commissioner was going yeah.

F

So we're taking it down 500 000 because we're moving yeah. I got you no wait, commissioner. You.

G

Want it to be 1.5 minutes right? Yes, I apologize surplus used, yes, okay! So it's back up to the 2.5.

G

Okay- and I apologize that roberta thanks for catching me, yeah. No, I think someone but yeah.

F

Mr rosting, now now that we've done all this I'd be willing to talk about the sheriff. No no degree.

F

Stipend forget that, and the salary increase do one half like we do with the rest of the groups.

A

Any thoughts on that before we go there, do we do we do we resolve the issue of the library.

F

Well, yeah, I'm not sure okay, so we don't know where we are from her, but we can reach out to.

A

Her now we did well yeah you're right. We did, but I sent her a message: yeah, okay, so we'll I'm sure.

A

She's listening so we'll see what she said but um well I shouldn't say that that was going to.

A

Say no stupid, uh you know so sheriff [music] um and sometimes we do have to catch ourselves.

A

So your recommendation is to take away the degree stipend and make it to.

A

Eighteen, five or excuse me: 850 000., 847 thousand five hundred dollars yeah. That number.

F

Increases because I think.

F

You'd have to tell me, I think, the passport. There was an implication that.

F

That we're trying to get you to where you need to be and we'll try to keep you current.

A

That is correct. Well, I I'm not sure the board, no okay, that was correct. Yeah I mean.

A

The sentiment talking with the chef was to keep the currency of the pay scales. I mean.

A

All right! Well, if that's the case, then we're back to what I said earlier: you're allowing.

B

Other jurisdictions to den, and I'm disagreeing with that and that's why I'm saying make it half.

F

Right what I'm saying? That's why I think we should talk about it. I don't know what you guys think.

A

And you're saying take out the degree stipend yeah.

F

Are we doing that any place? No, we. We have a tuition reimbursement program, the county.

G

And there- and they certainly qualify for that as well, the sheriff's staff and- and of course, they.

G

Get if they go through the training academy and they don't have a degree they can get.

G

Their aaa degree, through the training academy so other than that, but they have the tuition yeah.

G

They're eligible to participate, the other accounting employees have yes, yes, and, and just so.

B

There's no confusion on this, because this is a new idea. You know everything roberta said is is true.

B

But what he's actually asking for is compensation for having a degree, oh so every, and that would be.

B

Every year you know so, if, if you get a master's degree, you get x number of dollars every year.

B

Extra because you have the masters yeah not to help you get it right, right, yeah.

A

Okay, so dad, what does it look like we put in that hat.

F

This way, everybody's mad at us a little bit.

I

A

Well, they're still relatively safe and we're not for the first time darren said.

F

And we're not done this is not final yeah but yeah. Thank you. That's everybody watching.

B

This is the half of which he has one. Is that a question for them.

H

A

A

Dpw's road maintenance was that ever brought back to where it was or did we leave it as.

A

No, it got it got reversed. Essentially, we did.

A

And everything that was allocated was spent this fiscal year. You know. Well, I I don't know.

I

That but it all it does get spent. I mean again sometimes there's timing yeah, but um there is.

B

No chance that we would argue we're putting more money into road maintenance than we need.

G

I received I've asked andrea which, if she had to choose between salaries or.

G

The two or three positions at this point she would have to choose the salary since.

G

She doesn't believe they can meet minimum wage without it.

G

Okay, which is what you said right, I thought that's what you said. No, she told me positions.

G

Well, I think, maybe her chain, you, I believe, I'm guessing have not spoken to her since the general.

G

Assembly finished and moved up the 15 right, so maybe that has changed her timing. Then, okay,.

I

A

The um money that's being spelled spent on the landfill, the second partial.

A

um Is that under is that in enterprise fund, or is that it'd be in the enterprise fund?.

B

But it's going to be general fund dollars. There's there isn't money to.

B

Do that yeah so right now we have about 11 million a million dollars set aside.

B

We don't know what we're going to need, but we know 11 million dollars isn't going to be the number.

A

Correct but we have a long ways to go before that's even looked at being developed, correct.

B

Well, we're in the process of um bidding out the the planning for this right. So yes, there's.

B

The big spending isn't going to start for a a while. If you look at doing something here,.

B

The idea is, being, we know, we're going to spend money. Can we put money aside.

B

Toward it, if not today, it's going to happen sometime.

A

And we've decided, I don't know if we decided the capital project about the parking garage.

A

Have we gone through that at all what the sheriff's department I thought we.

D

Were still waiting some for some additional information on that, if I'm not incorrect.

D

Well, the public works came to you with the the master plan for the the site.

B

And talk to some about, you know the um how much room there is storm water concerns.

A

I know I'm kind of jumping around a little bit, but that's something that's got to be discussed.

B

Yes, there's several big things still hanging out there blueprint. Of course, we've talked about that.

B

That's the biggest this garage is another big one. Landfill is another big one. I know this gets.

B

Smaller because I think we're closer, but there are still question marks about fire without ems.

B

But if we get to the point about talking about fire suppression, that's another big.

B

One that we're not planning, I'm hoping that that's not in this plan. The last thing to.

F

Me that we've talked about now that we heard back from the library. What do we want to do.

F

um We're about 345 short on their salary request and there was 270 in the three positions.

F

So um we could flip the 270 to the salary. They'd still be.

F

Whatever that is 75 000 short of of her request, but we haven't we're not.

F

Fulfilling anybody's total well we're very we're fulfilling very few of total requests.

A

But even with that, we wouldn't we be going above and beyond for the library than we.

A

Would for the others? Yes, yes, we're giving them more, but I don't know that anybody else has the.

F

Minimum wage issue as badly yeah they're they're, definitely the the one that gets hurt by this.

G

Maybe a little different and that the other, the circuit courts and the state's attorney.

G

Etc are and soil conservation are actually on your they're getting the as it stands.

G

At the moment, the four and a half percent plus this half of what they've requested.

G

Whereas the library is only getting the this additional, that they've requested does that.

G

Make sense and I've never met an attorney making minimum wage.

A

Have you ever met making minimum wage? Oh just saying I didn't say they're all.

G

Worth a lot more, I'm just saying: okay, um okay, so we want to go after the library.

A

um So you're saying take away the position to the library and put that money in put that money into.

A

The raises any thoughts on that, so, what's the difference between the two you said it was.

D

Roughly, what seventy thousand the 270 we never put in? Yes, we did. We did yeah in the original.

H

We did it's it's up here, but then we reversed it out. Okay. So when you see the negative, it's.

H

Actually, just saying we don't have it in at all. Okay, I didn't want you to take out something twice.

F

No, I didn't yeah, it's actually down farther yeah yeah right, it's here and then it's coming out here.

H

The library increase you made was about 345., that's right, oh yeah, and then that's here.

A

Taking the benefiting the positions out, you're, adding 270 to 345. is what he's recommending okay.

F

Is that correct, yeah, okay, yep.

A

Which is still a little bit less than what they've asked for, but a little bit less than.

F

Ever it's a lot more than it's pretty close yeah. I think it's a lot more than the others.

A

Oh, what is it total 6 14? It looks like well they're asking for a 686, so.

A

Okay, you know and going back to a point that roberto was making.

B

And we've talked about this before, but just a reminder, as things are the community college and.

B

The library are built into your plan with three percent growth assumptions in recent years. The.

B

Commissioners have added fairly often to that for the college, uh not so much for, for the library.

B

So um they're they're in a little different situation than many, but then with the college.

B

They also have uh state funding in a different way than the library does and they've had two very.

B

Good years of state increases, so the the share of the library the community college didn't have.

F

The wherever we started at five and a half that everybody else had because they they do their own.

F

Right right, they don't have it, but for different reasons you know the sheriff.

B

Is set up the same way as we are except his number was, was four instead of five and a half.

B

And that was because of the 34 increase that preceded that, then the college and library.

B

All we're doing is looking your entire budget. Here's a three percent assumed increase. They do.

F

They they spread it out how they want yeah and with both you know, they're not going to take a.

B

Three percent increase and give five and a half percent salary increases. Yeah just can't get there.

F

F

The community college, we did cut him a half, a percent, we did or half yeah yeah. We did yeah.

B

You reduce the amount that they were requested. Yes, yes, yes,.

B

I say that it might seem like nitpicking, but it's not unusual out there for people to say yeah. You.

B

You cut my budget when actually what you're doing is cutting what they requested right.

F

A

A

Project for the.

A

Parking garage and parking area.

A

Excuse me for the complex part of it's a study right.

A

And then allocating money to building the parking garage.

A

Well, that is a path you know right now. We have not planned to build a garage.

B

uh You've heard the reasons why they think uh we we should. I think that the next big decision after.

B

We get to study will be how large a garage do we want, and what are we trying to accommodate right.

B

And there could be different answers to that.

A

But the first step is allocating.

A

The funds to do the study.

A

Yes, with the understanding that a garage is to be built, okay- and I would say ideally, we would.

B

Put something in the capital budget for this, even though we don't know what the end is is.

B

Going to be, if there's going to be something, then I'd rather have 20 million sitting there.

B

Okay, even if it turned out to be 19 or turned out to be 39 at least you're, not starting from zero.

F

And that project has no other land available to do more regular parking. It's they've.

F

If the study said there's not enough parking, a garage is one of the very few options.

B

Yeah, there's also the possibility that we could talk with westminster about.

B

Their requirements, so, as I understand it, this is all being driven by square.

B

Foot calculations: you know sheriff headquarters the biggest part of his.

B

Employees don't operate out of that building when we build a detention center. Clearly.

B

Office space square foot requirements- you know- wouldn't seem to be applicable, yeah.

B

The only one that maybe makes sense would be the the state's attorney those people are.

B

I mean that's where they work.

B

B

You know we can, we can consider parking yeah. What other parking is is around and.

B

How we're making use of it and I'm not saying that there's some easy solution.

B

That just makes us go away, but it could impact how large a garage we decide to build.

A

Has there been a recommendation on when the study is to be done.

A

Is it fy 2425? Well, that's that's up to you right. um Okay, now remember the sheriff was arguing to do.

B

It now, and if you, if you want, if your intent is to move ahead with an assumption, we're going to.

B

Build a garage then it might make sense, it's not a major expenditure. We can handle it out of 23.

B

Right and that you know picks us up a few months: yeah. Okay, I like that yeah and I think I think we.

F

Need to do it, and but I agree with you, if we're going to do it, and I think we could do this study.

F

And say we know we need more parking, so we need to put money in to the capital budget for something.

A

I agree ted to something like that fall under the purview of a public safety impact fee.

E

It's like what make the argument that that ultimately sustains the public safety.

E

Infrastructure that we have to provide the same level of services that we're providing now just.

E

In a different place, you know first going back to remember roberta checked. We don't have the.

B

Authority so we would have to get the authority first, so go right going into next year. I think.

B

I'm not saying the argument can't be made. I just I think it's it's a tough argument. I know I know.

B

The logic holds together for you, but it's kind of like.

B

You know with schools I'll get people arguing with me that we should be fixing roofs with.

B

Impact these, and I tell them, you just can't do it and they will explain to me why it makes.

B

Sense and my point: isn't it doesn't make sense, it's just not that it doesn't work that way.

B

um So you're what you're saying isn't quite there, but it's another one. I I think.

B

We need to think that through very carefully and make sure that we truly felt comfortable.

B

That, if it ends up in court that we believe we could defend that.

E

Are you willing to sit down with me to help me try to make an argument for that.

B

Well, of course, I'm willing to talk through whatever you you want, but my starting point is I.

B

Think it's a stretch because if I can convince you ted that I think we can hold up in a court of law.

F

But I guess I wonder, or it is your attention, if you do that kind of uh fee, do you want.

F

It it's going to be ongoing, so do you really want it tied to a building, or do you want to.

A

I believe we hit all the non-profits or is there any other non-profits to be discussed.

A

That we haven't talked about, I know you're talking to historical society.

A

No, I think, they're going to be using one out there. Tomorrow, thursday, thursday yep.

A

Historical society, yeah, yeah, um okay, uh any other capital projects.

A

No addition to airport correct that we need to discuss right now, nothing changing from the.

B

Existing plan right, although um that's not to say that it won't change. This is this- is a expensive.

B

Long and complicated project and we're dependent on federal money and the timing.

B

Of that federal money, so it's one. We have to to watch very carefully.

B

And you know you've been involved in something you know and right from the beginning, just the.

B

Land acquisition pieces of this is is a very hard start to you know when you have.

B

Money you're spending today against money you planned and receive over many years.

E

No, not at the top of my head. um The funding that we provide to the jurisdictions um has any.

A

Of that been adjusted or needs to be adjusted to for conversation or no well, the there's a.

A

It's it's done with a formula right that has been in place since before me. Okay, so adjusting that.

B

Would mean either ignoring the existing formula right or redoing it right. uh I.

B

Think those would both be difficult. Things to do, you'd have to have eight jurisdictions all agree on doing the same way and yeah the way the formula works.

B

In most years, there are kind of winners and losers among the town now this year, because.

B

Inflation because of inflation, everybody is seeing an increase, but that's that's unusual.

B

And towns tend to like the formula in the years where they're on the good side, they don't like.

B

The formula on the ears, whether they're not but um it's been a while, since we did this.

B

But we actually did a study to look at how we were funding the municipalities relative to.

B

How other counties were under the state law? Remember, we are not covered in the state law.

B

Our revenue sharing program was in place before the law and we were grandfathered and the study.

B

At that time, at least found that we were, we were doing better than what we would be forced to do.

B

And um I think it's worked pretty well here. It's not unusual to hear some pretty ugly fight.

B

Sometimes, between towns and counties, you know in other parts of the state over this kind of money.

E

And I think it's also important too, to remember that that you know municipalities that are able.

E

To utilize, this funding for certain things means that we don't have to cover them in their stead.

B

Yeah, I think I've always believed that was a bit overstated, though, because you know, I'm not sure.

B

What services the towns are providing that that stops the county from providing now, of course,.

E

That stops the county, but that we don't have to, I guess, is a better way if I wasn't clear.

E

I apologize why I guess I just mean in terms of saving us uh any any funding. Of course you.

B

Have the big expenditure of schools and the towns don't provide schools, but they all use the schools.

B

uh The probably the best example of where there is a change is where you have municipal police.

B

uh Arguably, if, if westminster didn't have police, we would have to staff hire so that that one I I.

B

Will accept there's an offset? uh Sometimes people talk about parks, but I don't think you know.

B

Municipal parks keep people from using the the county parks, we're still we're still serving them.

B

um You know towns have roads, they take care of their their own roads. You know.

B

But they still use all the county roads yeah. You can't go anywhere without driving on a county road.

B

So you know I I I understand the thinking, but sometimes I think the arguments get a little bit.

B

um Too strong about you know how much it saves the county I mean coming from the municipal.

E

Standpoint, especially with a law enforcement side of things, it really is, you know it for.

E

For me for municipality from from you know my perspective anyways, it was better to have.

E

A local like a very local law enforcement agency that could work in conjunction with the sheriff's.

E

Department through the cross, jurisdictional, deputization agreement, but also uh you know.

E

Being able to provide an immediate level of assistance to citizens and municipality right.

E

um Again that that means that the sheriff doesn't have to allocate as many you know,.

E

Position as many deputies in the area, that means he can focus on other areas, which means.

E

That you're not hiring additional deputies, which means that in the long run, I think the.

E

County and the towns both benefit from that yep on law enforcement. I absolutely agree.

E

Well, gentlemen, I think maybe we've gone as far as we can today. Yes, I'm sorry, commissioner, certainly.

K

Feels like it community college. I would like to ask the question of the community college.

A

um I know what we're recommending as far as salary increase, but we also provide funds to.

A

Community college for other services that they provide and then entrepreneurship and.

B

Adult basic education right and for them to prioritize one over the other.

A

um Because I know what they're requesting they're not getting everything that they requested.

A

Does this support their needs or do they want to reshift their priorities?.

A

They didn't request anything for adults, basic education. They just requested a salary increase.

A

So um in adult basic education, not in addition that that's already in the recommended budget.

A

Adult education and entrepreneurship, so what is it that you want them to prioritize right now? We've.

A

We're giving them 50 percent of their request for salary increase if they want to look at that, and.

A

Compare to the other two programs that we are funding, what they want, one over the other okay.

B

Between to actually lose funding in one of those areas and add to the salary increases, because.

A

um That salary increase may have more value to them than another program. You know the community.

A

Colleges have they have a real tough time with salaries and with enrollment. So I'll point out on.

B

Adult basic education there's state money in the mix there too, so a reduction in county funding is.

B

Also, a reduction in in state funding right the entrepreneurship program is something that you.

A

Funded discretionary right so uh give them where it looks like this conversation is going now offer.

B

A few thoughts on where it looks to me like we are and what we might be able to do on thursday.

B

I think in theory you could vote right now and say all right. We have a proposed budget, I'm not.

B

Suggesting that you do that, but you you have something we could move ahead with. uh Yes, we.

B

Have an unbalanced plan I said from the beginning. I don't believe we're going to balance that plan.

B

This year uh it seems like on we come back on thursday. You know you could give some.

B

More thought to all the pieces of what we did here and maybe we come back and there's some.

B

Minor changes that we want to make something that didn't get addressed or something you want to.

B

Change a little bit here, but we're probably in position to say: okay, we're ready to to move on.

B

This is what we're going to offer the public, and then we start that part of the process.

A

So thursday we have open session at zero nine and then I take it. We have work session at 1pm.

A

If you have time in the late morning, then and then again at one so the intent is to go is available.

A

Right into work session upon conclusion of the open session, um and then we go from there is there.

B

Anything that any of you is seeing as a major area of discussion. That's still hanging out there.

A

Fy29, were you saying you wanted to add the 123 back to the carroll county to the community.

F

College now I want the community college to tell me if that's what they want. Oh you want.

F

Them you want their opinion, okay, gotcha and then the schools which I don't know what we do with.

F

That, anyway, we kind of asked them to look at the next five years and do their best guess right. But.

F

We don't have the money for it anyway. I don't know what no, but I think, you're right. I think.

A

You know it'd be nice to hear from them. Yeah, I'm not sure where they are on that, but I can check.

A

Yeah and then I'm uh I'm scheduled to attend tomorrow the board of education meeting.

A

Yay, uh what else anything else you would think of? Well, the only thing I do want to point out.

D

Is six hours ago when we first started, I made a comment and I'm going to stand.

D

By that comment, which is, I would like all of us, regardless of where we end up on thursday.

D

To reconvene on tuesday, because it is a proposed date and I think, given that four of us are new I'd.

D

Like to have an additional day or even the weekend, if maybe something comes up in somebody's mind,.

D

To have that opportunity, because I'd rather us do it and take an extra day, which is why we were all.

D

Elected to these positions versus us going, oh wait. We forgot this and it's three days after the fact.

E

No problem meeting again yep yep sure absolutely and then, when all is said and done, we move forward.

A

It goes to public hearing comes back to us, it's still not an approved budget. We then take the.

A

Comments from public hearing, we can make the appropriate adjustments and then we provide.

A

The final budget, so now the thing is done it's just getting more in stone as we move forward.

A

But we're still quite a ways off so okay. I need a motion to adjourn so moved. Second, all in favor, aye.