Carroll County, MD Board of License Commissioners, 10 Aug 2022

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From YouTube: Board of License Commissioners, August 10, 2022

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https://www.carrollcountymd.gov/government/boards-commissions/board-of-license-commissioners-liquor-board/

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We'll call this meeting of the board of licensed commissioners or carroll county to order.

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It's been a long time, tradition of this board that we observe a moment of silence.

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For those who have gone before us and pledge the flag, it is strictly voluntary at this time.

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Of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands.

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One nation, under god, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

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Thank you, you all may be seated.

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Ladies and gentlemen, the first item on our.

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Agenda is approval of the minutes from the july 13 22 board meeting, which you all received and.

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Has a copy, I believe in this packet: are there any corrections or additions to those minutes? No, no.

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Hearing none they stand approved as read.

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Our next item is to look at a proposed changes to the board of licensed commissioners rules.

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And regulations- and we appreciate the attendance of those who are here- uh it was the opinion of.

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This board, as we as a board, discuss these proposed changes before we go to public hearing.

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In the essence of time, and primarily to those who are.

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More familiar and work with these rules of regulations that we invite.

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You all, and anyone who would be interested in before this board makes recommendations to our.

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Final recommendations to our rules and regulations before we go to public hearing so with that keith.

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Do they have copies of the they have copies of the word? If you guys want to come up to the tables.

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On the desk are copies of the rules.

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Rules and regulation changes and then we have what you guys submitted to us by email.

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Do we have all the emails and so forth, yeah, that's! What's in your pocket,.

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I don't uh if I have emails, no they're just copies they're copies of what I was emailed.

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One looks like this one page is that it says 16-13-12.

D

That's some code shaker and there's one that says rules at the top yeah. That's from.

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And uh the mala presentation from david mister got that yes, okay, thank you.

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Where do I have a copy.

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Of the proposed.

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I guess here: that's it right there, okay.

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In the essence of time, I don't know whether it's necessary that we have this on record or not, but.

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For us, mr johnson, would you state your name and address and blablabla this for.

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The record and pete you next and mr mister and so on and so forth. Just.

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For my identification case, I call you by the wrong name. My name is martin johnson.

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M-A-R-T-I-N j-o-h-n-s-o-n address 9-8-6-9 diversified lane, ellicott city maryland, 21042.

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My name is pete samios, 152, east main street westminster good morning. Mr chairman members.

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Of the board, david f mister for the law firm of mr winter bartlett.

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My address is sweet, 404, 30, pedona road to money in maryland, 21093.

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Good morning, kelly, shaffer-miller 73 east main street westminster maryland 21157.

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I'm asbury I work for the carroll county arts council at 91, west main street.

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Westminster maryland, 21157 and gwen is just here with me for the one limited discussion related to.

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The carroll county arts, council, licensing, I'm sorry- I missed your name, one asbury.

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Gwen asbury a-s-b-u-r-y. Thank you. I missed it too. So thank you.

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I assume uh the simplest way you all have a copy of the previous wording and the new.

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Wording and so on and so forth, as uh exists in this wonderful booklet and the changes.

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Are marked and so on and so forth.

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So I'm just going to briefly go through these things, we'll go through them.

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Where we have as a board suggested changes and so forth, and if any of you uh have any suggestions.

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Particularly grammatical or spelling or anything, please don't hesitate to remind us.

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My colleagues here have degrees from other institutions, but I attended the university.

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Of maryland, back when academics at that time, classes include running up and down the steps.

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At the university and tap dancing and stuff like that, so my english might not be correct.

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But we have the illustrious attorney mr dixon up here, to keep us straight.

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The first change that, uh and I'm not going to delay these things that we have is, is on page two.

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uh And I'm I'm going from this, so it may not follow the exact pages as listed in in the book.

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There's simply a change of a word: adding treasury, alcohol and tobacco tax commission and the phone.

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Number of the building at the goldstein building and, of course, the next rules and regulations were.

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Revised and adopted september well that date's got to be changed when we officially officially do it.

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And rule 2b b.

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The notice shall include references to the board's power to summon witnesses.

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That was taken out, but now I understand it's back in am I correct mr dixon? I think so.

K

Yep, when I'm looking at something different than you, I know I'm on the first page here now.

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Yeah, but you ain't even got the right one, and this is what I just was just handed to us. Look at the.

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One, the one that came in your packet this would you change you change. We got rid of that line.

C

Why did you tell me shame on you, no grapes for you.

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Yeah, you did if you even changed the first october from september. Okay, but, however, under rule six in.

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The bottom right hand corner outdoor seating. A drawing depicting outdoor seating is required.

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Turn over on the next page under the right hand, side rule six two, a.

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uh Been changed, at least one of whom shall be a registered voter and taxpayer.

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Is no longer applicable, however, the word resident of carroll county.

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Has been added resident of carroll county when the application is filed.

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And shall have resided in carroll county at least two years prior to the application has been struck.

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Further down a registered voter and taxpayer resident of carroll county well,.

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A registered voter and taxpayer is struck from the item and the next sentence down the application.

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Is filed and shall reside in carroll county during the entire tenure as resident licensee.

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She'll have resided in carroll county at least two years prior to application is struck.

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Okay on the next page, on the right hand, side under rule 6, 2b.

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Registered voter and taxpayer is struck as previously and two-year residency is struck.

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In the residency a registered voter and taxpayer has been struck to conform with the prior.

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Under the next page,.

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Bottom of the page- and this is where I have a question- the very last words on the left, because.

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I thought we changed that to financial other places.

K

We did change it every place. We saw that word which would not be changed, but we changed just.

A

Let me butcher it, but you didn't bother correct me, so that will be changed to financial, correct.

A

Yes, so you might want to make that change if and where's that, because it is changed on the right.

K

Bottom, no, no! It's on the bottom over here! Okay, so this is the original. This is the old stuff. That's.

K

The new stuff on the right is the changed, so we did. We did change it over there, but up at the top.

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Says entire tenure has resident licensee.

K

Yeah, that's so that's the previous rule right on the other page, yeah, yeah and.

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We changed as you mentioned. Yes, how do you pronounce that miss kelly cuny early.

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I was going to ask keith, but I would not even understand what he said.

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All right, it looks like on the next page. After what we just discussed. That's.

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The only thing that's been changed from that word to financial interest.

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The next page, under the right hand, top rule 10d.

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However, after has been struck in the word before a transfer, a prospective transferee.

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Must may work for salary only under the existing licensees for a period to be determined by the.

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Board has been added, provided that the board approves the arrangement in advance.

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Under 15b renewals, a little background on this.

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People wait till the last minute to do a lot of things. This past year probably was.

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A little bit unusual, but not totally unusual, where people wait until the very last minute to come.

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In and there's a hold placed on the license by another commission or tax office or someone else.

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And it may have been cleared up.

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But our office has not received notification, that it is clear and joe has to do some.

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Last minute, heavy work to be able to issue those licenses. So in order to kind of prevent that.

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The board recommends that the statement- all state and local taxes must be paid by april twentieth.

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Of the renewal year or a fine of fifty dollars per day will be incurred until the tax payments.

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Are satisfied and if you question where the fifty dollars come from, that conforms.

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With late payment of or late renewal and taxes, and so on so forth, that was the intent of this.

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Okay, the next page top of the page.

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Shall result in revocation has been struck in the word suspension of the license.

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Until the establishment is temporarily closed, in accordance with the rule.

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With rule 11 and result in revocation hearing to be held at the next liquor board's hearing date,.

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As you all know, revocation is much more serious than a suspension.

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And creates a lot more work for not only the licensee but our staff as well.

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Corporations six rule 16 the next one, multiple places.

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That word has been changed.

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Moving on to the next page, as we go through this now.

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I hope you understood what I said and nobody said anything if there's any comments or.

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Suggestions any of these things as we go through, I think that's the time I prefer.

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To discuss it rather than jumping around at the end and back and forth, and so and so forth,.

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Yes, sir, mr chairman, um I'm sorry I misunderstood you. I thought you only wanted clerical.

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Corrections as we went through as opposed to substantive, because everything I would.

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Testify about today would be substantive um if you want to hear from me about earlier.

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Yeah, let's go back; okay, let's do it! So then, when we get to the last page, we've had recommendations.

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And suggestions and so on and so forth and discussed it well then I would draw the.

H

Board and everyone's attention to the second page of the proposed rule changes rule 6, 2, a.

H

And, of course, this would also carry over to 62b, but um I understand obviously the.

H

Board's intention- and I think that uh it's congruent with the decision in the tennessee.

H

Retailers case from the supreme court uh back in 2019, um maybe not 2019., and that.

H

You've done away with durational residency requirements.

H

And I I applaud you for that. I think it's pretty clear that supreme court opined very clearly held.

H

Durational residency requirements are not constitutional, but I would urge you to.

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Also expand the rule change and to do away with local residency requirement. Even though there's.

H

No durational component and go to a residency in the state of maryland for the local residents.

H

One of the things I had sent to the board ahead of time was an outline that I did of a of a.

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Presentation I was asked to give to the maryland association of liquor administrators back in may.

H

And the you know, the springboard, of course, is the tennessee retailers case, and you know, mr.

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Dixon will tell you all: lawyers will tell you, holdings are what really count, but we can get.

H

An idea where the courts are going by other things, they say which would be called into.

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Law dicta, probably the holding in that case, was just about durational residency.

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Requirements, but they talked about some other things. However, I also provided an.

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Opinion of the attorney general of maryland to the harford county board of liquor, control board.

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Your sister board in harford county and in that the attorney general clearly opined that not only.

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Do would directional residency requirements be unconstitutional, but in the attorney general's.

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Opinion any local residency requirement in the local county or baltimore city or annapolis city.

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Which ones have their own board in their opinion, would also be unconstitutional that it to serve.

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The purposes of appropriate control of alcoholic beverages that it is sufficient to require.

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Essentially, a resident agent like for a corporation or a limited liability company.

H

Or a limited partnership in the state of maryland, and that would be a maryland resident to do that.

H

And I would urge that on the board, I know there's some some feeling out there that.

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Boards cannot probably just change their rules the way they would like to do it that particularly.

H

Where there has been historically a statutory requirement applicable to that county, however,.

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I believe that, in a situation where there may be a clear holding of unconstitutionality, that it would.

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Be appropriate to do that and do it by policy and practice. Then, if, if, uh if they're willing to do.

H

That until a legislative change can be made, the reality of life is even if the general assembly.

H

Says something's law? If it's not constitutional, it shouldn't be enforced. I would urge you to.

H

Look at some of the other boards around the state. There has been for a period of time.

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An effort on the part of various counties to do away with the local residency requirement.

H

We did it in baltimore county back in 2012. Did it by legislation prince george's, montgomery, county.

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Have all done that harford county has done it by policy and practice.

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As a result of that attorney general's opinion that I cite it and provide it to you.

H

I don't know that they, I think in the last session they did achieve that through legislation.

H

If, for some reason, the board doesn't take my recommendation, I would certainly urge you.

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To recommend to your local delegation in the general assembly to make that legislative change.

H

I'm going to work with my retailers, associations in baltimore county and the state maryland state.

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Licensed beverage association to try and get it across the board change.

H

If we can get support for that down to the general assembly, sometimes that's hard to do.

H

Because the local delegations, sometimes just don't, want to go that way,.

H

But I would suggest that you can do this, because the law is pretty clear and even though it may not.

H

Be compliant with the existing statute applicable in carroll county. I think it is the correct thing.

H

To do under the law, because you won't be able to get that legislative change until at least next.

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June, I would say, would probably be the earliest unless it's considered emergency legislation.

H

That's all I have to say about about the residency requirement list.

H

If anybody has questions I'll be happy to respond.

K

Mr, mr, I have a question in tennessee wine was the court precluded from considering.

K

The residency requirement, along with the duration requirement.

H

Interesting question: I I find that I'm not. I don't claim to be a constitutional scholar.

H

Certainly, looked at a number of things argued constitutionality back in my days as a prosecutor.

H

And since I've been in private practice, you know the supreme court.

H

Always takes up an issue and it's to them. It's discretion. They never.

H

Compelled to accept in disputes between states and a few other original jurisdiction matters.

H

In that case, I think they took maybe the path of of least resistance that that durational.

H

Residency requirement that they had in tennessee was so onerous, so ridiculous. If you, if you looked.

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At the case, the most ridiculous thing was you: you could qualify, have a qualifying resident, licensee.

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When you applied for the license, if they had been there for two years,.

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But then to renew that same license, they had to be a 10-year resident. I mean I, I don't even.

H

Know how they got there, but but strange things happen sometimes in politics and legislation.

H

um I think they did discuss and dicta and not the wholly the case that that just about any kind of.

H

Mandatory residency requirement would likely be unconstitutional if the right case came up.

H

I mean, I think their argument was to say how much more effective is it to have somebody who.

H

Resides perhaps at the far end of the state of tennessee, as opposed to somebody who just.

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Resides across the kentucky tennessee line. Something like that. Remember that, and I would.

H

Suggest the same thing applies here: is it more likely that someone that resides in in the far.

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You know on the carroll county: pennsylvania line is going to be more compliant with the state law.

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Applicable in carroll county, your your rules and regulations than someone who just lives over in.

H

Randallstown, just the other side of the carroll county baltimore county line. I don't think so.

H

I don't think there's any real uh supportable legal argument that that would be true.

K

So the maryland legislature could have considered.

K

Residency along with the durational when they changed law in 2020.. Yes, they could have gone.

K

Beyond tennessee wine, if they wanted to and and many of the counties through, the local.

H

Delegations to the general assembly have prior to tennessee, one, like I said, 2012 baltimore, county.

H

I don't remember exactly what year it was montgomery and prince george's went that way.

H

Howard county introduced a bill this past session, but it was politics, nobody had any.

H

Objection to the substance of the bill, they are upset because it got introduced at the 11th hour.

H

And it got ruffled some feathers, so they forced them to to withdraw it.

H

I wish I could tell you that I really had great insight as to what motivates.

H

Sometimes the local delegations on things, sometimes it's constituent input.

H

I think and I'll leave it up to people like pete who can speak for the retailers, but I don't think.

H

The re by and large my clients and I represent baltimore county licensed beverage association.

H

Have since the mid 80s, very large retailer sisters, they we supported the change in 2012.

H

In baltimore, county and and I find that I think most most of the retailers think that you know.

H

Maryland's good enough, I I honestly think that the very local residency requirements sometimes create.

H

Some mischief and some you know misrepresentations and I hate to see that because then that means.

H

People potentially get in trouble later yeah right well, I agree with that last statement for sure.

K

Thank you well, I usually agree with mr mr david, but uh this is a little bit different. I think.

G

We should wait for the legislature to make a change. I think it's a pretty major change.

G

You know liquor, business is funny, sometimes the smallest changes.

G

Cause big changes in the marketplace. I don't think it's a small change. I.

G

Think it's a big change. We have 24 subdivisions, 24, plus liquor boards.

G

And there's local control and I think there's reasons and good reasons for that. So.

G

I'm not necessarily against it, but I think it should be done in the proper manner.

G

Through the legislature, whether it's statewide or county by county and probably a good shot that it.

G

Will be done this year, but I don't think I don't I'm not for local boards changing.

G

Major piece to me major piece of legislation: you know, even though they may have the power to do it.

G

I think you've got to follow. I think you should follow whatever the law is that that's the.

G

Precedent that should be, and if we want to change it, we should ask our our delegation to change it.

G

Or the state assembly to change it so pete. What do you think about how we apply that law in practice.

K

Our our resident agents, uh do you see any problem with uh with their participation in the license.

K

That it's not perfect, it's not perfect, and you guys see it all the time but, like I say they still.

G

Have to bring somebody and it's local- well, I'm resident agent for buffalo wild wings. As you know,.

K

And you think that's a good idea. I I think it's good to have somebody local now. I don't think.

G

That most resident agents- you know they just do it to have their name out there, but I I you know.

G

I got to buffalo wildlings all the time I you know I I observe what's going on because I think that's.

G

That's my job to do that um you're in the minority, though very much so well. I also know a lot about.

G

The business what the resident agent should be doing yeah but again, I think it goes back to.

G

It needs to be done by this legislature right, that's my own personal opinion.

H

The only comment I would say to that is if there was the right case and I'm a very pragmatic guy.

H

As when it comes to an attorney representing my clients, I don't like to do things and incur.

H

The expense for them, or put them at risk, maybe having a license application denied or something.

H

Of their license, but I think this is right if, if the right case comes along in carroll, county and.

H

For some you say somebody says we don't think this is right, constitutional. They refuse to.

H

To have a carroll county resident license, you deny it appeal to the circuit court. I don't think it's.

H

Going to hold, I think, circuit's going to rule, you know, that's unconstitutional, you can't enforce it.

H

That's just my opinion, but you know I. I don't think you can have much more.

H

Persuasive authority than the supreme court, united states and the attorney general maryland.

B

So some of these establishments, when they uh need a resident for the license.

B

They just some of them just get a customer. That's been coming in.

B

Over the few years, um so it would be a major advantage for them if it opened up statewide.

B

For them to be able to find a license licensee, I think what you would most likely have is.

H

Someone who's actually involved in the operation, then someone who probably is is: it is a not a.

H

Technical owner, but a real owner operator, that's a good point. You brought up because.

B

The other way around they're, just picking somebody that the only reason they're.

B

Picking them is because they're a resident of the county well, my comment that be is: they could put.

G

Somebody in the business on on the license- they don't have to be the resident agent they're still.

G

On the license, they're still responsible, if they, if they're, if they're with the company.

G

And they can do that, but the the idea of the resident agent from what I would remember is.

G

You have somebody local that the board can go to if there's a problem. Some of these corporations.

G

Buffalo, wild wings, I mean trace you try and get somebody in authority to uh return a call. There.

G

It's almost impossible now, maybe if the liquor board called about playing devil's advocate so.

B

You're saying that if they're local, we have someone that we can call in here. Well, even if.

B

They live in the state, we could still call them in here. Well, I think it's a little easier yeah I mean.

G

The idea started, first of all, with you just being carroll county. Obviously that's out, I think, and I.

G

Agree with him, I think the recommendations you made are compliant with current law and.

G

Current judicial opinions- I don't know if carroll county needs to be the one to change it, and I I.

G

It's just well, we have other counties, changing it right now, yeah speaking to your point, mr harmony.

H

That's the whole purpose under maryland law. Why you have individual licensees for these limited.

H

Liability entities in some states like virginia, they have corporate licensure, they don't even have.

H

That individual responsibility but maryland, and it probably is a wise decision- has always required.

H

There be individuals to be there, so you can bring a physical human being in in front of you.

H

And and sanction them and of course uh you know, in my opinion, the biggest sanction is going to.

H

Be you have the authority to do something to their license. You can put them out of business.

H

That's, I think, that's a much stronger uh inducement than having somebody reside.

H

In westminster or in the county, you know so if I understand your argument, mr mister.

K

You agree that the maryland legislature has retained under the 2020 enactment they've retained.

K

The resident requirement did away with the duration requirement.

K

But you feel that even though perhaps we would are restricted from being more.

K

Open than state requirements, the fact that this is.

K

Likely to be ruled unconstitutional releases us from worrying about.

K

Ignoring the state law, which we would be doing because state law, I think, is pretty clear that.

K

In many instances there has to be a uh resident of the jurisdiction of the licensing jurisdiction.

K

Do you disagree with that? um I I no. I agree that you are in my opinion. You are released.

H

If, if a statute's unconstitutional it's it's not right, it shouldn't. So your opinion is the the.

K

New enactment of 2020 from annapolis, there are unconstitutional provisions regarding residency.

K

Requirement what they did is they did so broadly. They indicated the the the jurisdiction locality.

H

You know they left it kind of open, said you kind of kind of pick what you want to do and I don't.

H

Know whether that was a compromise or not yeah. um Well, sometimes they mention state yeah. Yes, a lot.

K

Of times they say jurisdiction or municipality yep, exactly so they they clear. These are words. Yes, no.

H

No question: um what I think is: if the board's concern is, we may be doing something illegal if we.

H

Approve somebody just to be a maryland resident in carroll county. I would say who's going to complain.

H

About that maybe a competitor, let them take the burden of taking the appeal on that. Let them.

H

Pay the cost, because they're going to lose on that and do that um rather than deny the applicant.

H

uh Under those circumstances, he would you challenge us if we did that.

G

Oh, I don't know if we challenge it, you know it cost a lot of money but uh yeah. What's the.

G

Point: it's not that we're against it! It's just that. I think I still go back. I think it's a.

G

Legislature's job, you know that they're there for a reason, you know you guys are there for a reason.

G

Their job is to create law. You know he just visited this issue yeah, um but mr mister is.

K

Making a good point that if it's unconstitutional it doesn't matter if they just visited well, but.

G

Right now, it's constitutional, you know we're talking about now. If, if, if a law, if a case is.

G

Taken and somebody changes a court overturns it then we'll follow the law, but right now.

G

We're this is compliant right. Now, it's presumed to be constitutional until it's not, and so otherwise,.

G

Absolutely a complaint and unconstitutional or two different things, I'm sorry compliant and.

B

Unconstitutional or two for two different things: oh absolutely, but it's not unconstitutional now.

G

That's what the attorney general says: wow attorney general's his opinion's worth as much as my.

G

Opinion, that's I'm sorry uh attorney general's opinions. Lawyers would agree with you on that.

G

uh Well, his pay is- probably I don't know, I'm not alone. I want to ask mr frosh what he thinks about.

H

That, well, I don't think much. Mr frosh, if I could say something I would, I would just say, I'm in.

L

Agreement with mr mister and the point is, we don't know who could anyone from pennsylvania could come.

L

In here somebody from littlestown it may not be uh pete's organization. There could be someone from.

L

Littlestown somewhere, you know and they push us to. We know they come in here for a license.

L

And we're gonna say if we deny the license: they'll be right at the carroll county circuit court and.

L

They're going to overturn it and they're going to get a license, then so we can do it one way or the.

L

Other is coming in. We can wait for somebody that we don't even know or out of the state they're.

K

Not going to get a license they're out of state, you said pennsylvania right. The state of maryland.

L

But, based on what mr mister said in the in the uh the tennessee case, littlest town is.

L

Much closer than garrett, county and eastern shore, so they could put the whole that whole.

L

Issue into play that we're closer, we know carroll county rules, we're there all the time.

G

There's no question: I don't disagree with mr dixon. There might be ripe for that in the future.

H

Somebody may try it. There are look, I'm telling you you've got people like total wine out there and.

H

Stuff like that, that constantly challenge I I've looked at a lot of these appellate decisions of of.

H

Federal circuits around the country total wine's, probably half those cases. It was total wine.

H

Was this tennessee case it was one of their subsidiaries. They've got uh how many thousands.

H

Of liquor stores two hundred a little over two hundred, oh two hundred, I exaggerated okay, so two.

H

Only two hundred liquor stores, um of course, one of their owners. Principal owners, is the united.

H

States congressman here in maryland, um so I don't know what will happen in that regard. I also can.

H

See where it could evolve, we're merely a resident agent like for a corporation or llc. I must be the.

H

Resident agent for probably 50 companies- and I don't have one bit of financial interest in them-.

H

I get paid some legal fees occasionally by them, but I don't have any ownership interest. I can.

K

Use an agent just to get received service right, so that's different than what we're talking about. I.

H

Understand, but I can see that that's a potential issue also um is when you have, if you have.

H

Individual responsibility, but only have resident age to be served. I don't know. I only say that in.

H

Support of mr dixon there's always enterprising people out there. I've never found it. My practical.

H

For my clients to challenge something, unless it's you know really causing them harm, but the case is.

H

Going to come along, in my opinion, I still think the issue with the the problem with the county.

B

Resident licensee is the fact that most of those licensee resident licensees that are picked.

B

Are only picked because they need someone that lives in this county and it's usually a customer.

B

And they have no idea about alcohol laws. My 89 year old sister has recently been a resident.

H

Licensee in baltimore county for a developer, they have a something called a developer's license in.

H

Baltimore county, where a landlord property owner can purchase a license to retain it.

H

Until they get a tenant and the reason that's important, baltimore county is that, as with some of.

H

Your licenses, here, your a license to say, there's a limitation on how many licenses can be issued.

H

She doesn't have anything to do with that at all right, she's, just the resident. You know.

H

My paralegals have been resident licensees and they have whatever the minimum pecuniary or now.

H

Financial interest- that's that's required, but it seems to me that it's it's an illusion.

H

It is and- and um I don't mean to jump ahead, but in that regard I would be so bold as to.

H

Make another substantive suggestion to you: you have the threshold ownership for your resident.

H

At ten percent or five thousand dollars- and I also think that's just not probably- doesn't make.

H

Sense anymore, I think any financial interest should be enough for the resident licensee.

H

It's not going to give them any more responsibility, any more control um and.

H

For that matter, in a business these days, five thousand dollars is nothing as a startup cost.

H

That you know it probably wouldn't even come close to representing five uh ten percent of.

H

A of an investment in business- and we see that every time yeah and there's always a question how.

B

Legitimate that five thousand dollars- and you know that's what always bothers me too, because people.

H

You know they're not really trying to to perjure themselves, but you know they need. They need to get.

H

The license so they do that, but I think it's just a recipe for disaster. It's a mischief.

H

It's mischief and I always I'm worried about that. You know I could I I have to accept what my.

H

Clients tell me, but I don't know where that money ever changes hands right. I agree. We don't either.

H

Well, if we're going to do that, then we just get rid of the resident licensee. You know that that's.

G

That's where you're heading it, so you, your job, is to decide whether you want to have some local.

G

Control and that's what I always go back to and or you know and I'm sure that's what the legislature.

G

Is going to debate, you know local control part. I just see it if, if you get rid of all that.

G

Then you're going to have these big corporations come in and you know I I don't know. What's what.

H

What's buffalo wild wings, a big corporation, I just said: I you they look their structure.

G

Is like most everybody else's? They got this layered structure, general managers and.

G

District managers and store managers- you know but yeah they're they're in atlanta and the girl. I.

G

Deal with is in minnesota, you know so what they know about carroll county. I I don't know. Maybe.

G

I'll, maybe I'll bold fashion, you know, look if the legislature changes it I'll live with it. If they.

G

Don't don't change it? You know, I don't think it's up to you to change. Just mine. We discussed the.

A

Presidency enough to move on. I have one comment about chairman. I'm sorry go ahead.

H

No, no, no bruce. No, it's a different issue. It's a different issue, just don't say the same thing.

A

In the essence of time, don't say the same thing. No, definitely not! uh No. Just on background.

F

When I found out that this resident agent law was changed a couple years ago, I dug into it.

F

As much as I could, I came to the understanding that two non-government organizations hired a.

F

Lobbyist in annapolis to get this push through and that lobbyist went to delegate dumay of.

F

Montgomery county and it kind of sailed through. I took a uh some some kind of inventory of.

F

Liquor boards around the state and asked liquor board members administrators who actually among.

F

Us not that I'm having been a part of liquor licensing system but who, among you, asked for this.

F

And everyone all the well, I can't say every liquor board, but the liquor boards who were listening to.

F

Me and answering me: they said we didn't, we number one. We didn't ask for this number two. We didn't.

F

Even know this happened, marty you're, bringing it to our attention. We didn't know this law passed.

F

And I'm sorry uh which law you talk about the 2020 enactment, I'm talking yeah, I'm talking about the.

F

uh President, where the resident agent is now required, it was registered, voter was dropped.

F

Resident agent was right, and that was the response to tennessee wine, and that was.

K

In the legislature and passed in 2020, that's what we're talking about correct, that's right and and.

F

It was initiated by delegate dumay in montgomery county where's, congressman troon from he is.

H

From uh western maryland and he's got a little piece of montgomery county, that's his that's just.

A

My comment was: where does he I should have said? Where does he reside.

H

In montgomery county and the montgomery county delegate introduced the bill.

F

Yes, yes, delegate dubai uh d-u-m-a-I-s um so anyway. I just want to give you that on background, so that.

F

You've got an idea of where this actually came from and it was written part of the writing.

F

That was put into annapolis initially was. We are reacting to the tennessee case and.

F

As a result of that uh delegate, dumay wrote, I suggest we do this and then it sailed through.

F

Perfectly fine laws happen that way all the time, but that's the background.

F

uh Very specifically, alluding to just a little bit of what mr mister said. Just an fyi.

F

He mentioned montgomery county and what they do. Montgomery county said.

F

We have, we will obey the law, but we see this one word in there called jurisdiction and we think.

F

That? Because this is a a license issued not by the state but by the counties on behalf of the state.

F

Jurisdiction means maryland and so montgomery county will accept a license issuance.

F

With a resident agent, as long as the person lives in maryland, they still have a buy-in as far as you.

F

Have to be part of the company now prince george's county, just second and final example of this.

F

Prince george's county just says: if nobody who is an actual owner applicant here, happens to live.

F

In prince george's county or lives in maryland, all you have to do is name somebody an adult, an.

F

18 year old or older, who consents to receiving paperwork and receiving phone calls on behalf of.

F

Your company, they do not have to be part of the company they don't have to be, they don't have to.

F

Buy in no five thousand dollars, no 10 percent baltimore city, that's prince george's county.

F

Right, that's prince george's county, so I just want to get fill in. You know a couple of parts there.

F

I'm a law order guy. You know that law enforcement for 38 years total- and I was the inspector in.

F

Howard county for 13., I can tell you that I put to the board. I put a whole lot of violations in.

F

I never once- and this is just my experience- I never once had to go directly to the resident.

F

Agent, because I couldn't get somebody who was part of the company and of course we dealt with.

F

You know I wrote up, you know big corporations, uh you know fuddruckers, but I had. I just never had a.

F

Problem getting them, I never had. As I said back then when I was asked about resin agents. I said.

F

I need to be able to reach out and touch someone like the phone company commercial says.

F

But I never had a problem with that one exception I couldn't get a hold of one.

F

Owner because she had lied on everything and she actually lived in on another continent,.

F

She lived in korea, so we were that license was revoked anyway. So that's the jurisdiction part.

F

That's that's all I can offer to you. I just wanted to make one comment on that.

G

Montgomery county says the the jurisdiction is a state, but those licenses are only good in.

G

Montgomery county it ends at the county line. They they don't have state right, statewide, privileges.

G

So you're, given two different definitions: yeah there's grammatical.

K

uh Juggling here, gymnastics, yeah sure, okay, last thing: let's move on to the next item.

H

I'm sorry just if I may add one one last thing on the rent on the resident agent, rentals, I'm going.

F

To call it a rental program, it's rent, a resident when you don't have somebody who can who's.

F

Qualified to be a resident agent, if you're, looking at a little mom-and-pop place, most resident agents.

F

They don't do it for free or for friendship. They do it for money. So you're, adding not you, but but.

F

Added to the situation is you know what I gotta pay this guy a thousand or two.

F

Thousand or twenty five hundred dollars a year on top of all of my other expenses and.

F

If you're trying to start out a business you're, a small person you're, not a big corporation.

F

You, you know, you got another thousand to twenty five hundred dollars. uh I think the most I ever.

F

Heard was 27.50 a year to rent a resident agent who couldn't care less, as it turned out so.

F

Thanks for listening, okay, let's move on you had I have a couple other things I think you'll be happy.

H

To know that there are probably more observations or things bring up rather than you know, tussle.

A

We've already discussed no, no, nothing. We discussed before. No, I mean the the items. Oh yes, there are.

H

Things that you have mentioned, and I I would go to page it's it's um which page is. It is page.

H

One two three: four: the fifth page where you in uh section two talking about financial interest.

H

The issue about uh with landlords and leases uh the only observation or concern that I have you.

H

Know I have practiced in every jurisdiction in maryland, but, like four counties I think or three.

H

um And I represent a lot of landlords with regard to alcoholic beverage, licensing.

H

Matters particularly where they're interested in getting licenses for their shopping, centers, etc.

H

The only question I have is that I'm not sure- and I don't know whether the board looks at this a lot.

H

But this idea of the greater than three percent of gross sales, where a percentage rent is charged.

H

uh I have some, uh we do look at it yeah we do. I I have some concern about about. You know the.

H

How legal that is also and whether or not that you know that really gives them sort of some.

H

Sort of ownership or control if it's strictly a a rent issue, I think that that certainly could be.

H

Challenged by by a landlord where they have no other control factors other than matters under.

H

The lease and they have no ownership, etc. um I don't you know, I don't think I've ever really.

H

Come across that before here or anyplace else, where that's come up and.

H

And where someone's been challenged on that, I don't know that it's regularly a problem.

H

And what the genesis that rule was here in carroll county at the time, I'm sure the idea.

H

Was not to have a disguised ownership where effectively they were trying to.

H

Hide their ownership and do it by getting in in the form of what would appear to be rent. And it.

H

Really wasn't ran was profits. That's the only question I have. I don't have any problem with.

H

Having people honestly uh disclose any control or ownership interest, the only question I have.

H

Is whether that interferes with contractual relations between a landlord and a tenant.

H

And I'm not sure where the three percent came from that magic number. That's anything I observed.

H

And and uh if there are any questions on that, then I would just make the the observation.

H

And I hope this doesn't come back to bite me. You know if people haven't paid their taxes on time.

H

That interferes with the renewal of their license and the license would by operation of law.

H

Expire and that may be a lot easier issue for the board on judicial review than revocation.

H

Because if you come on for a revocation hearing, obviously you go through the whole.

H

With that, where it might have just happened on its own, if they didn't pay their taxes and.

H

The comptroller, wouldn't let you renew the license it would expire- is that state law.

H

In the tax code, or I believe that that is that there I I I will have to look and give you the.

H

Specific section number the alcoholic beverages code, but I believe there is a requirement.

H

That any license be held if taxes are not fully paid, but you said expired, so I I'm just.

K

Wondering if it's the tax code or the alcoholic beverage code, I think it's, I think it's the.

H

Alcoholic beverages code, but I I you know I should I should give be able to cite you on.

H

That, in other words, there's certain prerequisites to the annual renew of licenses. And if you can't.

H

Renew the license, because the taxes are unpaid, then doesn't it expire because all licenses are.

H

Annual yeah, but are we talking about fees to the board as opposed to taxes, fees to the board.

K

Were like fifty dollars per day, so so I I think the revocation suspension language was was more.

K

In line with uh renewing application, or did we also cover whether they paid their taxes or not?.

J

Well, yes, I'm not sure exactly if I'm answering your question, but that I I get.

D

State holds and county holds, and this year we had people run up to the last day before they paid and.

D

I could not get my releases in time. Our wording said that in that matter the license was revoked.

A

Which we've changed to suspend or we're talking about changes to suspension.

K

But you got to hold from the state regarding what uh talking about taxes? Yes, okay, so maybe it's belt.

H

And suspenders, I'm not telling you you should make this rule change and I think suspension is a much.

H

Fairer thing than an automatic revocation, um but you may not even have to go to that second step.

H

Once they've satisfied the stuff and and have that, revocation here or you may not want to.

H

Yeah, but in fact we got there because this year there were like five cup five licensees, that.

L

Hadn't and we knew it was going to be automatic, and our next meeting was like 10 days later so.

L

They would have been revoked for 10 days if we, so, I think that that was the whole purpose of.

L

Saying it suspended and then a revocation hearing at the next meeting we would hold yeah because.

D

If they were revoked yeah, they couldn't get a license again and even that establishment couldn't.

D

Get anything for six months per the statement. Yeah your revocation is way too onerous unless.

K

It's absolutely necessary, so if they're expired, do they have to start a whole new licensing process.

B

I think so I would think so yeah. I would think so yeah if there's a spy if they it's it's.

G

It's something you ought to put some thought into. I agree, I agree with dave, I mean if the license.

G

Is over it's over, it's expired, but if it's expired at least they can get it again. That's true, they're.

G

Not free, they can get it, they can right. I don't think revoked should be in there. For that. uh Don't.

G

Either either suspension- I just I agree with him. I think expired is the word. You should work around.

A

I don't think that was his point. His point was that they're automatic, according to tax law.

A

Okay, moving on to the next page, then, is where we stopped.

A

And I guess that's it where what'd, you say that word was miss kelly.

A

It's changed pecuniary by the end of the day. I won't be able to say it, though, so.

I

Your tongue is going to hurt. You only have so many times to ask me that question.

A

Okay on the next page, at the top, the two-year residency is out of there, and the word has.

A

Been changed again all the way down to the bottom and the registered voter and taxpayers.

A

Deleted, however, resident of carroll county at the time been added. That's.

A

We've already discussed that on the restaurant, the top of the next page.

A

Filing of an application and shall reside in carroll county during the entire tenure as resident licensee, that's the previous one.

A

It's in black yeah, so I think you're here not there. Oh yeah, okay! So that's there's! No change.

A

Basically, other than that.

A

Be nice if these pages were numbered at the bottom, however,.

A

I guess we're up rule 22 hours of operation well hold on you. You skipped row 20 a.

K

Of course, the counters, the counters- that's capitalized, that's the only.

A

Well, that's just a word counters put in there yeah. That's the only thing in that rule right.

A

I don't change yeah, that's it just counting and then.

C

If you go to the second page right, it's the seating recovery mean the next page. Yes,.

K

Next page next page is hours of operation yeah right, but you do have 1 a.m. 1 a.m.

D

K

So see footnote at the top uh yeah, where we've proposed legislations for the 50-seat.

A

Requirement- and I've got some reservations about some of that, so uh that will be discussed.

A

As a state change for the legislators,.

A

The hours have been changed to 2 am, which is there and at the top of the next page,.

A

Changed for sunday at 1 a.m, on sundays,.

A

And under rule, 24 licensees must have all patrons and none employees removed from.

A

A premises and, in addition, blah blah blah and down at the bottom.

A

You're not only getting the patrons out you're getting all.

A

Employees and so on and so forth out and where did that come from.

C

That's basically, it's just two paragraphs. That said the same thing we get we're deleting one.

C

Of the paragraphs it was redundant if, after we made that one change of time.

A

Okay on the next page under rule 30d, there's no d so delete that letter. That was simple.

A

Even I could do that there's one above rule: 28, yes, we're a change operator. Can I just comment on rule.

H

24, I don't know how significant it is to you, but you did change the language a little bit before.

H

It you mentioned non-working, employees had to be out, and now it just says non-employees. So I'm not.

H

Sure what the what a non-working employee is, but I guess the employee that's hanging around after.

H

Their shift yeah, maybe, um but you did get a you- got rid of the got rid of the term of non-working.

K

So so you think that that we're allowing a non-working employee to invade this requirement.

A

Would he be a patron at that time? I would argue that yeah, if somebody's an employee, even though.

H

They're not working that shift say their day shift and they're there that evening, technically.

H

It probably wouldn't be there. I can't imagine it's going to be a real big problem for you.

H

I mean how occasionally would that happen, but I just want to point out that there is.

H

A distinction yeah, I I agree with you. I think that it gives clarity to it. Yeah, just just working yeah.

K

All patrons and non-employees comma non-working employees yeah removed from yeah just I would.

K

Just add that definition I ran into that in howard county on a couple of occasions, so.

F

Just allow me to suggest on duty, as opposed to working, if somebody decides to really.

F

Argue because on duty means that there are records that show that you're working now and.

F

You're getting money for it and we're paying taxes on it as opposed to yeah. I was working.

A

Yeah, that brings up a point of a case that we had a serious case involving.

A

A person who indicated they were not working but.

A

He was the owners, he was a owner, so he doesn't keep records of his hour working.

A

Hours but suppose he'd just been the manager and directly it should be punched out there.

E

C

Rule 28 rule 28 music, the county has changed their wars, ordinance and.

C

This goes along more with the county's new orleans audience. They got rid of db levels.

C

And they say basically from 10 pm to 7 am no loud outside music.

K

So they got rid of dp levels. Yes, this rule does not say outside, though it says any music.

H

So that means your anybody. Who's got, live music.

H

At 11 o'clock will be in violation must have some places up here that have later entertainment.

C

In america disturbs the peace and quiet of the neighborhood, I.

C

I got you, though I understand, but they got if they loud music from inside.

C

That that just you know, then that gives the board some discretion. There's no question.

H

I just wanted to mention that that it's not strictly limited outside.

H

And that's probably what you want. I mean I guess, if the music's so loud, you can hear it.

H

Two blocks away, even though it's all indoors are you legal students.

A

What is a deck considered if it is partially enclosed.

H

I think if any portion of it's outside.

H

You're going to be subject to whatever those standards are from the county or the city.

A

Because we have one or two establishments that that would be.

A

Applicable an outside that that might be three quarters three sides.

A

Okay, nothing under 30d there until we go to the next page.

A

Especially on-site consumption permit for class 1 distilleries will be issued.

A

Upon approval by the board at a cost of 500 annually, that was added in because.

A

It's not in the existing rule and the distilleries were approved and so and so forth. After.

A

That booklet was issued. I have a question.

K

So where are we rule 33 yeah, all right on the page after the beginning of rule 33 right? Yes,.

K

Okay uh on the right side, are our changes on our left side as original rule, but.

K

I have it here, that's a bold on the left side. So is that the original rule, or is that something.

K

We're adding on the left side! No, that was the original rule on the left side. That's just how it.

K

Came out yeah? Okay, so we did it change the changes on the next one: yeah yeah class d, breweries. Yes,.

K

Okay, asd license for breweries will be granted regardless of population numbers. As long as the.

A

Brewery has obtained a class 5 state brewery license. These licenses will be designated as.

A

Class db and this license will allow selling their product for both on and off premises, consumption.

A

This is to comply with state law.

E

Okay, well, that's, I don't know, comply with state law, but basically we're allowing the class.

C

These the breweries would not count towards the population right we were separating them. I thought.

G

That's the whole reason we put that in there the class d's used to be one. That's right actually,.

A

That's why it's in there, so I mean by making it one for five, but what you're saying you're gonna.

G

Have unlimited distilleries and wineries and I don't think we're gonna forget that problem that.

C

uh I mean if a brewery wants, I think it's good economic development, a very wide area destroyed.

C

Once well just breweries, we don't regulate the wineries and, but so, if you would have if they want.

C

To put seven breweries in kill county, we're not eliminating how many they could do center count.

C

Well, let the marketplace decide how many there are yeah. I probably I'm just saying.

G

There's a lot when you go one for five: five thousand you're ex and most you are.

G

Sticking to where they put one there's no, I mean we're just talking about class d's, not class, a.

G

So you don't have a regulation by population of class b licenses here. Do you no? No, no.

A

Okay down on under f.

A

S h licenses shall be issued needed to accommodate the public and that simply is change of a letter.

A

Right yeah, payment of taxes. Unfortunately, we all got to pay taxes. That's unfortunate.

A

All right, it looks like it's just a repeat of what we put in earlier under renewals. Any questions.

A

All right under rule 49, only non-profit organizations may apply for special and.

A

Temporary licenses that's been added to to clarify.

A

Display of license.

A

We're not serving pheasant under glass.

A

Under glass has been struck from the rule, specialty permits must also be framed and on.

A

Display and one day license must be displayed, so you can just take your license and put a.

A

Thumbtack in and then tack it up to the wall, it doesn't have to be preserved from the air.

C

Well, because you get a frame now and most frames are plastic, not glass,.

C

If you want to get technical.

D

That's a shallow frame license.

C

And display because conspicuously yeah, you can go to one of those stores and get a cardboard frame.

A

And put around yeah anyway, it doesn't have to be under glass, rule, 57, revocation or non-renewal.

A

To clarify the premises for a minimum of 30 hours end five days per week, such failure.

A

To hold the premises open, the public for the minimum error specified shall be grounds for.

A

Revocation or non-reveal place in blablabla, I will I'll speak on this briefly. I have not.

I

Had the opportunity to speak with any clients to know if this actually impacts them so I'll.

I

Make that known, but I will say that this rule does apply to the class d, specialty establishments and.

I

Will apply to the breweries, so I would ask that this board keep that in mind and perhaps consider.

I

Or be receptive to, I guess, testimony from maybe specific operations who are unable.

I

To meet the five-day requirement but do meet the hour requirement. I think it's. It probably.

I

Goes without saying that class, a and b will have no problem meeting the five-day requirement, but.

I

I would imagine that there might be some of these specialty establishments that are not.

I

Open five days a week- and I I was not here for the initial conversation- I don't know what the intent.

I

Of that was, but if, if the intent of that was not to you know, dequeue those smaller businesses.

I

From holding a specialty license, then I would suggest that that's something that.

I

The board take into consideration, I think, when this was discussed.

A

We had a couple occasions for class b's. Yes, uh that were not compliant with this, and I don't.

A

Think we kind of thought about the class ds. I mean we can also drop the class d or you can make it.

C

I mean I agree with kelly, I think, derek I can't think about my head, but yeah several that might.

K

Run to a problem uh jerry in union bridge he's on the open what thursday friday well, he is a.

I

Class br now so he actually expanded his hours. Pub dog is a class b now so they expanded their hours.

I

But some of the uh the class or the state license class five class d local license breweries. I would.

I

Imagine or maybe like a thursday friday saturday, sunday sort of business yeah, but the only reason.

A

I'm sorry the reason I mentioned him prior to him getting a b-orb. Yes, prior to him. He.

A

Was probably only open what the weekend he may have just been four days, it's possible. He was.

I

Wednesday's as well, I can't recall off the top of my head right. I think a lot of them. It's it's rel.

I

Again without having looked at them specifically, I do think thursday, friday saturday, sunday sort of.

I

Operation is more common amongst those types of operations, so, according to this rule, pipe.

B

The side in hampstead would have to be required to be open five days. That's the only one that I.

I

Just took a quick look on their google business hours and they do list um specifically four days.

I

A week, so I would, I just think, perhaps discussing the applicability of of this. If this is something.

I

That the board is interested in adopting for the other licenses, the five-day requirements, perhaps.

I

Discussing exempting the class d holders from that requirement, are we conflating? I don't know.

K

Specialty permits, aren't they issued to state or to businesses to have a state license.

K

We don't issue them another license or do we. I thought we issued a specialty permit.

K

Not a specialty license. No, that's only for the distilleries and correct me if I'm, if I'm.

I

Wrong rubies don't have, but that's only for the distilleries. It's actually a license. The brewer.

D

The state law for breweries requires that, if they want to have a tap room, that they have a if they.

I

Hold a class 5 state license that they then hold a local class d license for their tap room operation.

I

And then some of them, if they hold a class 7 state license it requires that they hold a class b.

I

Local license for any sort of tap room which is like flood zone, for example,.

K

Blood zone has a what I know: it's very confusing: um the class d. Yes, sorry flood zone has the.

I

Class br because they switched to a class. Seven state manufacturer's license okay, so so so that.

K

So they're not part of this discussion right here, they're right, they they meet the five-day.

I

Requirement under their existing license correct, mainly the class d's, were concerned about not me.

C

In five days right- and I think the suggestion would be just to drop the deeds out of this.

C

And just because the best, the problem I'm having is restaurants are only open. Four.

C

Days three days a week yeah, I would agree with you. I think we should eliminate the d's okay.

G

Are you you said class these, you don't want any uh days of operation that mandatory.

G

Because what if somebody comes in and puts a concrete building up.

G

Gets a class d and has rape parties.

B

That's what you're talking about remember. I told you about this class d. How.

G

How it can be used for so many purposes, so you better think about that and.

G

Put some kind of limitation on to adjust that because, like well.

C

The board has the right to make hours operations and have them so many hours. You can still make.

C

That requirement to a class d, you can still make that part of your decision to have.

C

Am I correct tim? Can they make that party stipulation of a license.

G

Now, if you have it in statute or regulation now the board would have the authority in granting.

H

The license or a subsequent hearing for a violation as a condition of continuing the.

H

License or not suspending it, you could limit the hours of observations. Absolutely what you.

H

Can't do is grant them hours greater than what the legislature's authorized, so you couldn't do before.

H

Six or after two we already you guys already um linen what used to be linens in lace, tea, room.

D

Juice bar now, um you already made her 30 hours, didn't they specifically for her establishment.

D

Oh, but you didn't say anything about five days.

E

Okay, any up. Excuse me any other comments on 57.

A

All right, this is a good time to take a five minute break.

E

A

A

My papers here for this section.

A

We're all through, unless somebody has some other comments or questions.

H

I want to commend the board for holding this uh this public hearing. If it's even a hearing, our.

H

Opportunity for comment, because my experience is a lot of boards just to go ahead and put.

H

The rule out there publish it and then they'll have the one public hearing when they're going.

H

To act on it, so I certainly commend you for for taking the time to do this and hearing us out.

H

And by the way, if, if you don't follow my recommendations, I do hope that you'll.

H

Certainly strongly recommend to the carroll county delegation for the next legislative session.

H

Or even if you do follow it, I I think that they should. I think they should change the law anyway,.

H

That should be done. If we do follow, they sh we're really going to ask them to change the law.

K

Yeah I'd make one comment on the percentage override on the leases.

G

I think one of the reasons that that concept came up is because of 7-eleven 7-elevens owners are.

G

Really glorified employee employees and the way they would get liquor licenses and other.

G

Jurisdictions was to have a very high override on a percentage and I'm I say, hi, I'm talking.

G

60 percent 55-60 percent, so they were actually the majority partner. So remember everything in.

G

The liquor business one little change seems like nothing. In the end, somebody will make it big.

G

Somebody will make it big. I also appreciate the opportunity for comment. Thank you very much.

I

For this opportunity- and I don't know if now is the appropriate time or not, but I do have a more.

I

State law related comment specific to the carroll county arts council that I am.

I

Here and prepared to discuss with the board, what's the 16th day before that.

A

Yes, what were you going to say? I was going to talk with kelly paper, but at least paper is 16-13-12.

C

The multiple event license.

I

Did you distribute the red line? Is that what is that? What it is? Okay, unfortunately, theirs.

D

Is the main color? Isn't it? Well, I print it in color, because I don't look at the county so.

A

You're talking about the total number of days.

A

She does a lot more.

D

I also filled in the amount- oh okay,.

A

This has to do with an addition. Her dad's request.

A

The request that we have and and I'd like to have some discussion.

A

Changing the number of seats to allow bar stools to count.

A

I thought about this a little bit. There's one thing that concerns me is: I think there should.

A

Be a limit on the number of bar stools that can be used to satisfy that seating requirement.

A

I don't know if we have any bars in carroll, county or restaurants, so-called restaurants, with bars.

A

Maybe johansen's downstairs that's over 10 or 12 seats.

A

But I can visualize somebody coming in and getting the class b license and has about 10 or 12 table.

A

Seats and a huge bar- and I don't think that's the intention of that license, mr chairman- may.

H

I suggest something in some other counties they what they do is they restrict the the size of.

H

The bar area, in pro rider proportion to the whole restaurant as opposed to the number of seats.

H

Where, maybe you could count all the seats as being particularly if they can dine there.

H

But don't let them have more than say, I don't know 10 15 20, whatever you think is appropriate.

H

Devoted to strictly a bar area, that's a great suggestion. My only suggestion in relation to.

I

That suggestion is that, if that's the route that the board goes to solidify the intent.

I

That that be clear, that that's, that anybody with an existing license is grandfathered in some.

I

Way so that we're not in a situation where we're trying to backtrack? And anybody who comes in for.

I

A change of license or something is then being reevaluated under a standard that.

I

They didn't know was applicable to them at the time. I think that's good too.

A

I think we only have.

A

A few that this would affect anyway, am I correct: it would really just depend.

I

On what you came up with in terms of you know how you're doing that, what I mean.

A

Is right now there's only one or two there's, probably about five that have.

K

Substantial number of bar seats is what we're saying: yeah. Oh I'll, have us okay,.

B

What were you talking about like he was talking about establishments that that may be.

A

Cramped right now, oh cramped, yeah, yeah yeah.

A

The one on main street. So what if we just made that, like we accepted 10 bar seats,.

A

I think maybe his it still would. Mr suggestion would be calories with, but doing a percentage and.

C

Then grandfathering everything in yeah, we didn't have anything like a floor plan percentage, yeah.

K

Yeah, I have to check archival statutes, but I think we passed one in baltimore county where we created.

H

A deluxe restaurant license and they limited this either the square footage or the percentage of.

H

Of the licensed premises for the bar area, I'll see, if I can find that archival statute and send it to.

H

To mr dickson to to uh to joe to to just to give you an idea of sort of a.

H

Format, possibly good, but I mean flip side- is a new place that comes in front of the board. If it's a.

C

Bar that's 60 of their floor space. The board can say no. This does not fit our environments.

C

You have discretion as a board too well right now. Our requirements don't have any, but.

C

You know, are you suggesting that the counter the top regulation be amended at the state level, but.

I

Then, in the local regulations, that's where there be some additional restrictions. Is that where.

I

I mean cute, I would also say- and I know that you all know this and are very familiar with this.

I

But keep in mind that the restaurant license already has very great restrictions in terms.

I

Of the hours and the meal requirements, so I understand the intent to maintain.

I

You know a strong table presence, but also keep in mind that that there are other I mean even.

I

If somebody per se wanted to have a floor plan with a greater bar area, it still has to comply.

I

With that those strict meal requirements, so in essence, they truly still are a restaurant.

I

um But I could see your name as a restaurant. In my estimation, they're, not a restaurant.

A

They're, a bar under the guise of a restaurant. Well, I think that you have to look at the.

I

Business model to say that, because I mean as a as a foodie who goes out to eat all the time.

I

You know when I go to that sort of establishment. What I'm looking for.

I

Is the restaurant experience it doesn't matter where I'm sitting, um so I I think it just depends.

I

Do I go before six or so say you go before six or seven after seven o'clock it becomes a bar.

I

I think you're underestimating me and my ability to stay up late.

I

I mean I know I have some tuesdays babysitters but now you're giving me a different perspective.

A

Being a wholesome carroll, county girl from a a re well respected family in carroll, county.

A

That's what happens when you go to you know women's mills for six years.

I

I appreciate the sentiment.

I

Our own rules says during mural time: that's it that receiving requirement is required during meal.

C

Time so meal time for dinner is 5 30 to 9 9 p.m, after 9 p.m. They could take all those tables out.

C

And we can't stop what they're doing. hmm I said it again: oh geez keith you're, bringing.

I

Up things like nobody ever even thought about you see he does that all the time. That's why.

A

A lot of this stuff is in here he wants to. He wants to create problems, not solve them.

A

You guys want books, I I have about seven of them, so I'm good. Thank you.

I

No I'm good. I have one in here and I have a separate version printed.

H

You know at some some jurisdictions. I can tell you, for instance, in baltimore county.

H

uh If you're looking at something about quote becoming a nightclub, they they regulate. That.

H

Through zoning and and um and they determine it based upon how close are the tables together,.

H

What you do certain times, the night kind of entertainment, etc, etc.

H

And um that's how they prevented some restaurants from turning into nightclubs. You know, after hours,.

H

Et cetera, so after directly after between 9 and 2 a.m, they could be anything they want to be.

C

So what are you reading that 28 age, 28 and 29.

C

The hours are on page 28 c and then.

C

Look in the top paragraph from the page 29.

A

Okay, I'm not a lawyer which must be available during but not limited to the following hours.

A

Must be available, but not limited to the following hours at the bottom of 28. number, one.

C

28 number one. I think I think what mr benford is saying is that on page 29, at the top, where it says.

I

During each of the meal times listed above, there must be seating available. What he's suggesting.

I

Is that if it's not at one of the meal times, theoretically, a an establishment could and again.

I

I'm not advocating for this I'm just attempting to clarify what mr benford is stating, but that an.

I

Establishment could then move those tables because they're not they're, arguably not required to have.

I

Them in that same location, if it's not a meal time after nine o'clock, my common sense question to you.

A

You're going to go to the expense of moving all these tables for what purpose.

I

Do you want me to continue to uh go into my my non-good carroll county girl standards here? Well, I.

I

Mean if you were a nightclub, if you were operating a nightclub and not really a restaurant, you would.

I

Move the tables and open and have a dj there and have a dance club I mean I honestly cannot.

I

Say that this is something I have experienced in carroll county, okay, but I would say that that's I.

I

Believe what mr benford is getting at getting at is that, theoretically, the way it's written.

I

Somebody could could move and adjust the tables if it wasn't during one of the listed meal times that.

I

They need for the to qualify for the license, and my rebuttal would go back to what mr mister said.

A

It's no longer a restaurant isn't like well, I would say the same thing to you. I think that.

I

There that there's enough, I think you would you- would see that during a hearing a license hearing.

I

If that's what's really happening here and if not, you would see it shortly thereafter and be able.

I

To regulate it I mean that's just not a, I just don't see the need to try to prevent something.

I

That we don't see we're having a problem with right now in the county like if we were having.

I

This as a problem, then I could see the need to further curtail it and have some some restrictions.

I

There, but unless there's something I'm missing, this is not a current concern in the county.

I

As relates to that now, one other thing: if these establishments, that you're speaking of.

A

Barely have room for 50 seats. Now, where are they going to put the tables if they move well, you're.

I

Just really thinking too logistically into this situation, but yes, I mean that's a good point.

I

I think to go back to the cap to allowing the counter seats and the bar seats. If you want.

I

To call them that, to count I mean I don't disagree with some kind of limitation. There.

I

Whether it's a percentage limitation or something like that, but I do think in general opening that.

I

Up only allows for increased economic development potentials in the county. I mean we're seeing.

I

You have seen over the course of just your time on this board such a substantial change.

I

In the culture, in terms of the class d licenses, I mean things, things are changing.

I

Different types of restaurant plans are coming forth, so why? Why have something like this? That.

I

Would prevent them from being able to operate in our county when we could still maintain the intent.

I

But maybe make it a little bit more flexible for those types of business owners. I assume that.

I

There's one specifically in mind for this right now, but if you recall there was one.

I

A year two years ago, I think there was one where we talked about where we came in and revised.

I

The seating for the just beer wine license because somebody couldn't comply with that.

C

County line cantina reduced it to 20 seats because it was 30 we reduced to 20. because their physical.

I

Capacity at that facility, even if they were all tables, couldn't be um because they're septic yeah.

I

So you know they're: just there are some physical constraints on spaces like counter tops bar.

I

Aside, that might prevent an establishment from having a full. I mean I'm working with a client.

I

Right now, who I won't name because I haven't filed anything yet but who could not meet the capacity.

I

Requirements for the full class b- beer wine liquor they're fine with that they understand that and.

I

They'll they'll, they won't apply for it, but in all other regards they are a true restaurant and they.

I

Meet all the other requirements, so if they wanted to, why shouldn't, we allow them to be eligible.

A

Any other comments on the seating number for a bar.

C

I just think I mean the main reason I made this suggestion to this rule is: I have some places.

C

That are very crowded, with tables and chairs to make the seating requirements plus the bar seating.

C

That in case they're emerging in case or a fire or something happens, they would have a very hard time.

C

Getting out of this afternoon, how does the fire marshal prove it? If that's it, if that's the case.

A

How do they have a license that the farm marshal did not approve.

A

The fire marshal approved over the over 50, it's it's 55 seats, but I can't see how they're going.

C

To get people out of there, I can't see how the farm marshal would approve it. If that's the case.

M

Does it by size I'll go with mr mister on this? What the farm marshal proves in baltimore county.

A

Half the establishments in carroll county would be closed.

C

We would use the same, I mean theoretically, it's the same regulation for barnard, county.

C

And for girl county they're ready it's a statement. Regulation yeah the board could.

H

Add to the rule, if you allow the bar seating, but then but the bar area not to exceed x percent of.

H

The license premises that may be a way to to avoid it becoming just a bar, not a restaurant.

K

I like that, and also too congested that would that would reduce the possibility of a congestion if.

K

Right I like to reduce bar seating. Could I go one step further and even suggest? Maybe there be some.

I

Sort of actual, rather than calculating the bar area, because that's like what does that include.

I

Behind that that you do like a seating at the bar, like how many bar seats relative to restaurant.

I

Size somehow, so that it's clear it's easier to enforce what you're suggesting well and it doesn't.

I

Have the opposite effect of deterring somebody from having a little bit more like behind.

I

Bar area for staff, for whatever you know business reason they want to.

I

um So not every establishment is going to set the bar the same way and some might have.

K

Behind the bar right space that we would count as a limitation- and it really shouldn't be either.

C

What on the buyer take measure.

K

I want a laser, I kind of I kind of like kelly's. um I do too. I do too well.

G

What you're talking about is, if you're talking about 50-seat requirement, you're talking about.

G

Small places and whether the county now wants to encourage smaller restaurant bars to open.

G

That's that's a decision for the board and economic development and everybody else to make.

G

But that's what you're really not talking about nightclubs here we were talking about small, almost.

G

Corner what I call the old neighborhood bar type place that holds 50 people, 60 people, whatever.

G

At the most and whether you want to encourage to have those types of places and that's.

G

As above my pay rate, okay, we discussed that enough. Let's move on miss kelly, you can start.

A

At the top of your page, thank you. What I have talking about I have submitted here is uh well.

I

Yes, let me give you background. Okay, so I represent the carroll county arts council, who has come to me.

I

Because, as most of you are probably familiar, the carroll county arts council has what's called a.

I

Multiple event, entertainment license, which is a license. That's allowed under state law.

I

What you have in front of you is a copy of that state law with my proposed red.

I

Line changes that I would ask the board to consider and then refer up to the delegation.

I

The impetus for this is that the carroll county arts council, I'm going to to make the assumption.

I

That most of you are pretty intimately familiar with the operations of the carroll county arts.

I

Council, but I do have gwen here with me, who may be able to answer some specific questions if.

I

There are any specific questions about events and whatnot, but the carroll county arts council for.

I

Many years has operated under this license as you'll see in here. There's a special carve out.

I

Specific to the arts council on west main street, and they have more than the 40 events per year.

I

In excess in which they come in for per diem licenses, which is again specifically carved.

I

Out in here that allows them to do that. What we would like to do is try to make this process.

I

A little bit more effective for them that we, I think I speak for the county, although.

I

Maybe I'm wrong in thinking that that we want to encourage the carroll county arts council. We want.

I

To support them and they've been a great asset to the community and um and not it calls for concern.

I

In this regard, so this my suggestion in talking to keith and talking to joe and kind of like.

I

Trying to figure out all of these moving parts here is that one of the most effective ways to.

I

Do this would be to actually request a change at the state level to allow for an excess of the 40.

I

Events per year and come up with a license fee amount for that now I believe I what I'm not.

I

Sure what joe put in there as a suggestion, but I think we were looking at the full class c- license.

I

Fees comparing them to a club right so 12.50 for a full club license. You know we are not opposed.

I

To anything, that's reasonable in there. The goal here would be to allow the arts council to have.

I

More than the 40 events per year and not curtail them there and also, hopefully make their process.

I

With obtaining this license, every year with you a little bit more streamlined as well.

I

If, if you are concerned at all about recommending this with it being open.

I

To I think right now, the way the license reads is that it's open to fire. What does that say.

I

Fire departments as well, then we would certainly be receptive to at that red line. Also just tacking.

I

On you know for an art center like as it's written in the rest, so that this would only be.

I

Only the arts center would be eligible to obtain greater than the 40 events per year.

I

That's the impetus, like I said, happy to answer any questions. There's you know there might be.

I

Some other ways that they could potentially get licensed for these events, but this is certainly.

I

The most efficient and makes the most sense and clearly was you know, intended for their purpose.

A

Are there any other organizations that you can think of that might be.

A

Similar to the arch council, only some other location, or something like that. I am unaware.

I

Of anyone in our county again doesn't mean they don't exist, I'm unaware of any other non-profit.

I

Who has this level of events and or who would be otherwise be eligible under this license? Because.

I

This license is incredibly limited to just the fire department or an arts center on west main.

I

Street in westminster: well, I'm getting and this wouldn't be applicable, but it's probably a bad.

A

Comparison but any organization, you know that day-to-day, like the boys and girls club, only not.

A

A boys and girls club, but some organization- that's open, 365 days a year or whatever.

A

I might think of anybody in. In other words, you mean that otherwise might want to have something.

A

Like that some other organization, I can't I have no idea what it would be. I can't think of any, but.

A

Since we need to go, buy one daily licenses, we issue.

C

Private mechanic colleges to find it the second highest number of one-day licenses. I was going to.

I

Say I'm sure there might be some who might for the 10 or 20 events you know per year. I can't there's.

I

No one that jumps to mind, but that doesn't mean they're not out there in the county.

A

Because we discussed this before either, but the state law is extremely specific. It says.

D

It doesn't say fire companies and an arts, council or an organization. It says an arts.

D

Council on main street in westminster, I understand that, but what I'm saying is, since this requires.

A

Legislation right would it be beneficial to open. It would be beneficial to expand. Well, the.

D

Only other organization, but I have no idea, can I ask a question: I'm not familiar with this local.

H

Legislation for arts council, but wouldn't the arts council qualify for for temporary class c licenses.

H

Which, according to your rule, have no limit on how many they only have a limit on how how long.

H

Each event can be, they are, and they do they get their 40 through this license, they get 40.

C

And then above 40 they do. You know 60 more one-day licenses which we're trying.

C

Just to make it easier, so we issue one license for the whole year well and and actually to.

I

Jump in on that real, quick, not to like overly complicate the conversation. But the reason that.

I

That the arts council is not eligible for the the class c beer wine liquor license.

I

Is because they're in the state wall there's a seating requirement and a dining room.

I

Requirement for that, so they do not meet those requirements. So this it's it's actually. This.

I

Section of the state law that allows them to have up to 40 events without those limitations.

D

It believes the only other organization that I could think of, and they never do, but maybe one.

D

Or two events per year is the historical society of carroll county so for 2020 2021, for instance,.

K

They bought the max license and the fee was 500 and then if they went over 40 events, they did a.

K

Per diem license so last year about how much money did they spend in per diem licenses. You have any.

I

Idea that it's okay, if you don't, we pulled a lot of numbers. I don't know that I asked her to look.

I

At that, specifically, I I don't have that. How many events did you last last year with alcohol.

C

uh I can only tell you how many we actually made sales at, because sometimes actually we.

J

We sell alcohol. How many events did you sell uh 55, okay over the 40. over the 40? Yes, oh so that's 95!.

K

Events right you paid 50 bucks for 55 for 55 days is that right is that I was john asked.

I

Joe, how many okay there you go: 2 750, yeah, yeah, plus 2 700. What was the license? 500.

A

32.50, so if we just make a license for five grand and let them have us, that's it.

I

We should be able to be the highest the highest license fee for a non-profit in.

I

Carroll, county, yeah and and just as an fyi for the fire companies.

D

This year is the first time I've ever had the fire companies purchase more than 10 events. I've got.

D

Two fire companies that finally went to 20 events- that's because they all got beer gardens now.

A

And they never have them all right. So if, if I understand your your thing here right.

A

125 for more than 10 events per year, not more than 10 would be a license right. 250 for 20.

A

375 for 30. 500 for 40 and it's blank for 41 or more well, we're.

I

I mean I'm open to board suggestions on that, but the the the closest license- that's akin to this.

I

I think joe pulled was 12.50. Yes, we charge for vfws american legions, elks clubs.

D

Nonprofit clubs right.

K

And this is a non-profit right, I think yes does. The state statute require you to have.

H

Certain seating requirements to be a full-time class c license yes for a full-time class.

I

C: beer, wine and liquor and carol there's a dining room requirement, a regular seating capacity at.

I

Tables excluding seats at bars or counters for at least 50 individuals and has a dining room, is a.

I

Separate requirement, so I mean most, I think, you've been there. They do not satisfy those.

K

Candy right, yes, so all the vfws and elks and all that stuff off dining.

H

Rooms and stuff, like that yeah yeah, they all got c's because it sounds.

H

Like, ideally, you should be a full-time class c license right and, and we and yes.

C

What what law is easier to change? I got you, I understand, so we charge them 12.50.

A

To coincide with the with the comparison.

K

They have not 95 events a year, all right.

C

Yeah they're our budget person.

I

No, it's just as efficient now. It's now joe doesn't have to process a bazillion one.

A

Well, I agree with that and it's you know it's fact. However,.

A

To fully compare with the vfw and the legion, and so on so forth,.

A

They don't have near as many fundraisers in my opinion as what the arts council does, which.

A

Is a little different in my mind as far as fees go.

A

uh What and true community events I mean these are uh these are events you know that are our true.

I

Community, like a community amenity, almost if you will, what does the r council do with this money.

I

What does our gwen is a okay caveat here? Gwen is a newer employee to the carroll county arts council.

I

Lynn, who is the executive director, happened to be on vacation this week? She did. Let me.

I

Know that she's available by phone and text if there are specific questions of her. But I said.

I

Don't worry I'll front the specific questions? Okay. So what does the arts council do with its.

K

Money do they make grants? Yes, the arts council. I do believe that they do scholarships as well.

I

And they host and participate in a lot like they do through the summer they have community movie.

I

Nights at the carol at the community college, where, like I could take my children and we.

I

Could go watch a disney movie in the evening free admission, it is free! Yes, in the summer, for the.

J

Kids, yes, they also do arts camps, I mean those are those are paid, but the events when you have.

K

An event at the arts council: it's usually a admission fee right. Yes, usually there is.

J

um Some feedback, yeah music, there's, there's a ticket yeah. Yes, sir, I mean it varies depending.

I

On the event right, but usually it's my experience and I've- I've actually been going there and.

I

Involved and volunteered since I was a child, but it's it's been my experience that.

I

Some of the events that are not perhaps as concert, oriented or whatnot are much uh greatly reduced.

I

Admissions fees than you would see elsewhere, you know for the benefit of the attendees.

K

So you have events where you lose money. Yes, in fact I would. I would go so far as to say.

I

That perhaps some of the events- if not a lot of them, where they are obtaining these one-day.

I

Licenses that they are right now, they're, not even recouping the license fee, I mean this is truly.

I

A an amenity to people who are coming to these events. This is not like the draw for the event.

I

Is not because they are able to sell beer and wine? What what do they traditionally serve?.

J

We typically serve four types of wine, two reds, two whites and they come in a little individual like.

J

uh Cost it's, I think, five dollars a glass or yeah, and then we also have. um I think three.

J

Canned beers on uh in our fridge as well- and they have they have a few events throughout.

I

The year that might be a little bit more like cocktail party oriented again more towards.

I

The fundraiser side of things do you rent it out for um events that are sponsored by other groups.

J

Yeah, the arts council is rented out, um for example, we're having a rental this friday by.

J

Lillian stoneberger who's, a vocalist she's just doing a vocal benefit concert, but most of our.

J

People that rent don't do alcohol through us some do that. Yes, but we usually charge them for that.

K

Do you um request the license for them we're going to need to I I need to ask lynn that question.

I

Because she's, really the one who's who's unless joe has the answer off the top of her head yeah.

K

I don't know yeah, for example, I know we do the carol biss challenge as well. Okay, through the.

J

Chamber of commerce yeah. I need to get specific examples for you yeah. Well, it's not it's not a.

K

Critical question everybody marries at the county report when they give the county report there.

I

If they don't they should that would be my recommendation.

A

Mr mister, there comes that orange mills.

A

That wouldn't come from carroll county. I think they should serve cocktails and.

H

Liquor board hearings, particularly the lawns mimosas. I don't like them.

A

You wouldn't, let me be on a liquor license because I'm on this liquor board. So how are you going to.

A

Serve me liquor on the liquor board. Well, one of those things sure we can come up with a way.

A

Any questions any other further questions. Will you feel comfortable, I'm just going to say a number.

A

1250, but I don't think it's a fair comparison. You mean in a positive way or in a negative way.

A

I think it ought to be a minimum of 2 000. if we're charging 12.50 for.

A

For that, I don't think it's a fair comparison as far as being a so-called nonprofit.

I

You mean well, I would like more information on what to do with the money the grants they make.

K

Whether I mean you can be a non-profit, but you can also be generating income for various groups.

K

uh And through a grant system, I would just like to know more about that before I uh before I, you have.

K

A number in mind, frankly, scholarships distributed. I I do not know we. We can certainly get all of the.

I

That specific information for you, I would like to know how many scholarships they they give out.

B

How they decide things of course, okay, so basically, next month, just.

I

Prepared with some more of that financial information, I mean I from a more logistic.

I

Standpoint I would say that the request for this type of license would be akin to the class c.

I

So I I understand- and we are not trying to get in at a lower number for the sake of it, but.

I

That being said, you know this is a non-profit, just as if they had 50 seats, they'd be eligible to.

I

Apply for a class c license the only thing at this point in time: dequeuing them from the full class c.

I

License is not having a dining room in 50 seats. So is it for that reason that we're then going.

I

To distinguish and say that this organization should be subject to a higher administrative.

I

Cost I mean: maybe the answer is yes, but I'll I'll just put that out there for the board to.

I

Consider and we will come with with some specific information to address some of your questions.

I

So I think the board. I also speak for myself, I'm okay with with changing law. Okay, as you request.

K

That it makes a lot of sense, um I think it'd be easier administratively and other things. I think.

K

It's the number that we fill in this blank. I think perhaps we want to clarify our thoughts, maybe.

A

That's my only question. Okay, I have no objection. I think it should be.

I

We appreciate that and we appreciate the opportunity to be here today and we will. I will.

I

Speak with lynn and we'll get some more details on all of those questions, and I, if there's a if next.

I

Month is the public hearing or whatever the next opportunity is well, I will come prepared with some.

I

Of that information, great thanks you're welcome, if you perhaps in the essence of time, if you could.

A

Get us that information prior to the hearing? Yes, yes, if I can, if I can find a consolidated way to.

I

Confer that to you, I will absolutely do that via we don't need the balance sheet. We just need.

I

Exactly just a better idea of where the how much money comes in where it goes, the annual report was.

J

Actually just created this month and will be going out in the mailing and as a non-profit, our annual.

J

Report will be up on our website. Oh yes, I'll get you the information! Okay! Good! Thank you. Thank you.

A

Okay, any other questions. No, this.

A

Do you have anything else unless you have something else for me,.

E

A

Any other presentations or questions. Thank you for this opportunity.

A

Yes, thank you like. I just appreciate you, all's input. We just thought.

A

That it would be good to discuss things with people that work with it more so.

A

Than what we do with before, we have the public hearing and try to come up with something that.

A

Would be agreeable with the suggestions and comments and so on and so forth that you all.

A

Made here today that would make it easy for us at the public public comment period, because.

A

You're, probably the nucleus, certainly the nucleus of whoever's, going to show up for public hearing.

A

So, and I would note that there was not one grammatical error that was brought up today,.

K

Well, there is one but not, but we didn't discuss it out loud.

A

Okay, if that's it, we'll move on to our routine business.

A

Thank you all. Thank you. Thank you very much and thank you see you next time. The good work.

I

And stay cool if you can for another day or so, and it's supposed to cool off a bit.

A

Mr mister, we look forward to seeing you down the street from your office here when, after the 26th of this month,.

A

Oh, yes, the ponies will be running and the exhibits will all be there.

A

I'll be there good look forward to seeing it.

A

You all right, thank you. Thank you all. Thank you very much. Thank you.

A

George, you hiding from me about this.

K

I have another one yeah I got it.

E

A

First, item of business is a one-day liquor license required for an outdoor event from.

A

Mount airy streets association hold a wine and cheese on main street.

A

At the plaza on main street mount airy on august the 18th. um At this time I've talked to mount.

C

A police chief- and he has concerns about this one. They are not closing the road down.

C

I don't know what we want to do if you want to prove it and pending the police chief approval.

B

So was this held before yeah just under the new one? Do we have any diagrams or anything joe's.

C

Oh yeah, okay, that's where the fire was several years ago. Yes, right lorenzo's! This is a mount airy.

C

And then the rare yard, where the bike shop is across from the caboose, okay, okay,.

C

But the road main street is not going to be closed. That's right! It goes right through that. Yes, from.

C

One can walk along the sidewalk who's sponsoring this mount airy um main street association.

K

So like it's like the the.

C

Yeah, it's like the chamber of commerce for for that little area. There.

K

Business owners, retail whatever yeah.

C

um With the street not being closed, the police chief has concerned, he was going.

C

To talk to the county, I mean to the town executive.

C

He's not going back to me yet do they need approval from anybody other than us.

C

Really because they're not closing the street down.

A

huh Okay, well, if they close the street, is that cons still considered a state route.

C

I don't think it is, but because of you know the bypass around there, we have one coming.

C

We do have one later on that they do close the street down that they've done before. Yes,.

C

So I don't know how you want to handle this unless you're the best way.

B

Why can't they get this yeah? Why couldn't they get the street colors down this time?.

B

You decided not to you just decided not to who who decided the town.

A

Or this outfit, this outfit, the outfit decided not to close, so they decided not to ask to close.

C

The streets to get to town to close down. Well, that's not very responsible right. I.

C

I have a problem with not having if they're, if there's two beer, gardens and people can leave.

C

The beer going and walk to something else to another area for another beer garden without.

C

The road closed, I think it's unsafe. Well, that would be just common sense. As for the road and.

C

The police chief's going to talk to the town administrator he's not coming back.

K

So it says here the mount airy main street farmer's market.

K

Under the auspices of the mount airy main street association.

K

Is doing this event promoting fresh and local in downtown mount airy? It has wine cheese.

K

Oh so so there's more than just the wine and cheese.

C

Yeah there's, if you keep on okay, there's a whole list of vendors.

C

And then there's a map, wine and cheese, just wine and cheese. That's all I see.

K

Is there anything other than wine that they're proposing there? I think there is one brewery: okay,.

A

Well, isn't that brewery in that in that building they want to turn now.

A

Larry, that's not open yet not open. Yet.

K

So here they're having.

K

Cocktails and ales place: that's in the plaza that might be at the. There is a distillery.

D

Right there in there yeah, I thought there was right there in the plaza too.

K

So so they want to here here is the.

C

This is the plaza yeah, okay and then right.

A

That's all the diagram. You got, there's nothing, there's one! That's not one! There.

E

It is so so my question is what is down here is the where they call the railroad, uh rare garden.

K

Where is that the caboose down there? Yes, the caboose is here where's the road go through right.

C

Here main street all right right there, so here's the plaza that they want. Yes, here's main street.

K

And then you go have events on this side and eventually- and where is this thing or is this.

K

Just going to be, they actually have a distillery. That's on main street. Is that what that is.

K

Miscellaneous distillery and liquidity ale works. My miscellaneous destroyer is here 25.

C

And look what the quality air works is 38.. I think I think they're supposed to be up at the plaza.

K

So there will be distilled spirits here. Is that right, yes, yep and of course, uh actually.

K

I shouldn't say of course: do they have a liquor license? Yes, yeah? Okay, so I see what you're saying.

K

So there are cocktails available at the from this distillery right: cocktails, ale and wine.

B

I don't know how you get everything without closing the road down.

A

I would think not if we're going on the other side. No, I would think so. What is on the other side.

K

You're you're, starting to show us the other side of the railroad garden yeah. That's that's the pnf.

K

Plus you have all this parking is where people are well. That's gonna be all closed off. Oh okay! Yes,.

K

Okay, so what happens across the street? So there's a lot of action right here right and then actually.

C

Between four and five okay in that area down there, what do you think that's going to be.

C

And the rare the winery is going to be in the rare in the rare yard: oh rail yard, okay,.

C

That's the winery, the urban winery cheese vendor food truck and then well how.

A

I didn't read the whole thing in there, but they mentioned about wristbands where.

A

How they're going to control that they're going to be id people at that, at the plaza.

K

So they give them a risk, they had to come to the plaza, get a wristband and then they.

K

Walk around and get all their stuff. Yes! Well suppose they go to that rail yard. First.

K

A wristband and wristband no service right right.

C

It's going to be at the plaza, it doesn't say anything about at the rare yard.

K

Look at something up here, keith. I would think if the police have uh some reservations about.

B

It I don't think we should pass it if the roads are not closed. I agree. I agree with you.

C

But my question is: do you want to pass it.

C

Are you comfortable if the cliche says he's comfortable with it.

B

If he says he's comfortable with it I mean I wouldn't have you know I mean it is thursday.

C

I think the date right isn't it it's thursday and they they've advertised 250, 18 30, sold out 18th.

B

Day, that's a thursday from and it says, does that say from six to eight yeah, it's only two hours.

B

Two hours: what's the reason they didn't want to close the street, they didn't want to ask for that.

K

I didn't get in, I didn't get in so I'm kind of curious. That's.

K

That's august 18th and we're just seeing this now and they've sold tickets to this.

K

Event without yeah they're sold out- I mean this, but this is normal. Usually we see it.

C

Yeah, we don't a couple weeks beforehand: yeah, but they're supposed to be at least 10 days right.

D

Well, technically, for an outdoor event, it's supposed to be 30 days, regular licenses at.

C

One days or seven years, or when did we when did we get? I don't know when we got it, it's stamped.

K

I received july 19th.

D

So basically, 30 days before the event yeah, so that was 30 days.

B

Yeah well, you've been holding those long.

K

Tips certified volunteers as far as I'm concerned, if the police chief.

B

Enough for it, did you see us tina, you want to see it. Yes, please. Thank you. As far as I'm.

A

Concerned, if the, if the police department approve it right? Yes, okay with me, yeah.

B

Go by the police department if they eat they approve it.

B

Fine, if they don't tina, says they have they've sold out the tickets, that's their.

N

Posting online of who all's going to be there where all you can go to what all they can do.

N

But we so we did receive it in a timely fashion, right yeah. We did receive it within the 30 days.

M

Well, so check-in begins at the lorenzo brick oven. Cafe, that's the plot. Okay! Is that the.

N

Plaza so several of those members have liquor licenses, so people can drink in the establishment.

K

Anyhow, no matter what we do, yeah there's a distillery there.

C

Well, there's jury's not that this the story doesn't have no on-site drinking right, yeah, the.

M

Lorenzo is the only one that has a liquor license allows on plate where's super foods. Is it close.

D

I thought they were superfoods. Okay, superfoods forgot about two foods. The brewery is not open yet.

C

And then they have and then the wineries, I don't know where that wine is coming from. I mean.

C

Probably probably frederick county, they have health, so it's to promote local produce and local.

K

Farming right the elk run well, their website has a whole list. They have elk run wines low vineyards.

N

Old westminster, winery linganore, the urban winery of silver spring and miscellaneous distillery.

N

Will all set up along main street to allow sample and sell of their bottle products? You buy a ticket.

C

You get a wristband, probably a pile of glass, okay and then you can walk around and sample.

C

But my understanding is the only two sampling areas are the plaza plaza and the rare yard.

K

It's a two-hour event there's and there's giving samples. Are they poor, they're giving full pours of.

K

Wine they buy now. No those little cups right, yeah, okay, half ounce, but can they buy cocktails there.

K

Well, the distilleries they said they can sell. Yes, they're a vendors, they had the distillery.

K

As a vendor right, yes, but but they can't consume the product under that license that they have.

C

But they have they they're going underneath the one-day license. Now they can't okay. So.

K

The distillery can sell a bottle of vodka if they distill it, and then someone could.

K

Walk out into a plaza and disgust a bottle of vodka, they can say like a bottle of wine.

C

Bunch of wine is, did you have tip certified personnel will be checking.

N

Ticketed attention, I think we have to.

K

Well, I don't know um I mean if the board asks I can go off to be there too.

A

Do we have criteria specific for one day license.

D

No not along those lines of I mean on the streets, I mean we have as far as security and.

A

We are normally written rules, but we have rules that we we go by I have to I. I.

C

Have to it's not what I'm getting at they have to do. We don't have a check seat.

A

But they got to have this this this and this when they apply. No, perhaps we should we just yeah. You.

D

Know if you're applying for outdoor, you have to provide a letter in the diagram yeah. Well, that's.

A

All what I'm getting out here, we're involved with public roadways here, maybe we should have.

A

Security security. You know so it's a thursday thursday thursday, six to eight two hours.

K

All right, so I'm less now that I'm less concerned about the uh drunk people under.

K

Those circumstances neither why the wines are samples are people going out to the road. I.

M

My my two concerns are yes, if we, if we're allows and with open road, I think that's going.

C

We're saying precedent, and also the chief is, is not comfortable with it right now. He has not.

C

Said not to, he has not told me not to say, don't do it, but he's also. He has not gone back to me.

C

My point is: if the chief says not do it, I don't think divorce should do it. I agree with that, but.

K

The chief also might be uncomfortable because he might have to deploy more people just to.

K

Provide safety that little corridor there's a lot of politics involved, yes, but and that he's.

C

Appointed and if he makes you know, he's talking to the account executive to make a decision.

K

The town mayor.

K

Determined for time administrator, I don't know what the term is for, whoever yeah I would. uh I.

K

Was I would say if he recommends that we do not grant it, then we don't grant it, but if he does.

K

If he's not willing to make that recommendation, based on all considerations, that he's more aware.

K

Of than we are and then my my vote would be to to grant it subject to his, you know: veto.

A

I think we agreed if the police chief I'd, leave it up to him. I wouldn't grant it.

B

Reason I couldn't wait to see grant says if he doesn't okay I'll leave up to him.

C

Do you want me to attend it if it's granted.

K

But but if he's not willing to pull the plug on it,.

C

He's not going to pull the plug if we grant it I'll talk.

C

I'll get a hold of the chairman, and now I would like him to say I don't want you to do this.

K

If he's not going to say that, then my vote is to to green it. If he's not willing to.

K

Say please, gentlemen, do not do this so keith? Why can't they ask for the road to be closed.

B

I don't know well, they can, but can't we stipulate that they should. They need to do that.

C

They can't well, he I mean you could stipulate, I don't have enough time to yeah. I think it at times.

A

A problem here, but if he's got officers at each end to kind of direct traffic to ensure safety.

A

Or something like that, rather than close the street, because it's six, what thursday, six to eight.

A

Yeah, it's a small window. It's a weekday yeah, it's a little different than me saturday.

A

Okay or friday night well, you'll have one coming up all right. Well, let's just.

A

Okay, well, we'll prove it pending approval of the mount airy police department, okay,.

A

One day, liquor license requests for an outdoor event from the kiwanis club of westminster, hold a beer garden with wine.

A

Event at the westminster city park on september 22 25 question is that fall fest.

C

Have they done this before saturday yeah and we've actually brought him.

C

In one time before, I remember that's why it is the kiwanis uh city rec.

C

They used to do it so at fall fest. This is a a fraternal club that wants to have a uh okay yeah.

A

Any objection, no one day liquor license request from chase stem of mission, 10 12, 10, 42.

A

Inc to hold an outdoor festival at the carroll county farm museum on august 27th.

A

From 11 a.m to 6 p.m. What is mission 10-42, please support organization.

C

The 1042 is end of duty.

C

Military and first responders that want to get out so chance does. This is the one that says.

C

You've seen the sign say summerfest. This is some. This is the karaoke soccer fest.

C

Oh, okay and and and they have uh they're having music and they have.

K

All kinds of big-time, dance, yeah right and and did they, give us competitive mom boys.

K

Do they give us comp tickets, no, okay um and.

K

What do you have for that?.

A

Them don't know who they are.

B

What he's going to that one! That's the second! It's actually! The second.

C

Year, they've done it, it's probably some kind of special food dirty like so he eat me.

E

You know he asked if he should attend the other, but he said I'm attending this one.

A

I could shop around keith if you need me one day, liquor license requests for an outdoor event.

A

From the town of new windsor for their musical in maine they've had that in the past they objected.

A

And they are closing the record one day. Liquor license requests for an outdoor event from the.

A

Town of mount area, the whole town block party downtown on august 27th and their closing array.

C

Well, that's the same time as the thing at the farm museum, any objections, no.

C

No, no sorry are you attending that? No, I'm telling you something. First, I'm a designated driver. What.

A

Designated driver for who.

A

Yeah, your daughter, she ain't old enough.

A

Permission to request from charles zimmerman post commander: well, the vfw wants to have a.

A

Hornhole tournament outside I've done it they've done the past. Any questions, objections.

A

You got a new uh original floor plan and a current floor plan from.

A

1623 brewing company they've added a new bar.

C

It's highlighted in yellow, it's installery. Have you seen it.

A

You mean you haven't been there yet he's, probably sad at it.

A

Still soon have that whole complex on that corner, yeah and yellow yeah yeah they're doing.

K

Good business, it's a cell support, wait a minute. What that's been there. I've been here for a while.

C

Yes, it's been there for a while: okay, it's seltzer, they sell.

C

Seltzer out of that, that's the sell, support.

K

You want to see this team.

A

All right, let's just bring us up to date, right. We don't have to take any action on that.

A

Request from frankie's bar and grill to change their license from a b.

A

To a b r to be open for one meal a day only with this the proposed new hours.

C

Yeah they're having problems there are not enough people.

C

To come to the bar for lunch time, so it's cost effective to go to a vr vr license.

A

When's, the last time they were checked for compliance yeah. I don't know.

C

C

If there's anybody on the sheet might be five on the sheep.

K

Any objections.

A

Here here, come on with the beer reese far company requesting permission for outside.

A

Service of alcohol in our corner grounds for their big money. Drawing this weekend.

A

They've done this, for I don't know how many years and they forgot to submit to us and objections.

A

Letter from brian naylor of county line cantina informing the board that they will not.

A

Be reopening and they got a sign on their door or the thing over there says close close and for sale.

D

He does say he uh he might have a buyer for the business.

A

That's good any other business before this august body to answer your question about frankie's.

C

uh February 28th uh second uh wait: you might be able to. It was in february.

A

It's all right, I was just curious. I've been in check, that's all.

N

February, 8th.

A

Anything else on the agenda. I have something for once we're off the air. Okay,.

A

Well, there's no other business. May I remind you that our next meeting will be the third.

A

Wednesday, all uh september, the 21st of 10 o'clock in this room.

A

There are no other business to be brought before this. I guess, but.

A

Wait: what are we going to do with all the stuff that we discussed here this morning.

A

Are you all going to compile that because we're having the public hearing at the next meeting.

A

Is that it well, I think we have some questions that we need answered. Well, that's why I'm asking.

A

Yeah, we, um oh, you want to come, go for lunch and come back or do you want to try to get because.

D

There are things that you guys are going to have to make a decision on the direction you want to go.

A

So we go to lunch to come back. Okay, that all right with you.

A

Mr tim, all right with you sure, I'm here all day, all right well.

D

But now um when we come back, we don't need to be. We don't need all right, video on record right.

A

So this meeting is uh technically officially adjourned. This meeting is officially adjourned.

A

We'll reconvene on wednesday september 21st 2022 at 10 a.m. In this room meeting adjourned.

A