Carroll County, MD Carroll County Board of Zoning Appeals, 5 Oct 2022

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From YouTube: Board of Zoning Appeals October 5, 2022

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A

Okay, we're going to call the b bza meeting to order um beyond circumstances beyond anything.

A

That we could control any circumstances we can control. This is why we're at this building.

A

004 the reagan room was available at our last hearing and then suddenly it wasn't.

A

Available, so that's the reason we're here, um pure and simple: that's there's! No other reason.

A

With that we're going to go ahead and call the hearing to order, and mr dixon.

A

um Would you there's two new pieces of correspondence that have been.

A

Submitted since our last hearing- and would you go ahead and read those so that we can, we can.

A

um Put those in the file? Okay: this is a continued hearing from august. um One is a letter from a.

B

Mark depo, he is a director department of community planning and development uh is dated july 18, 2022.

B

But the office of administrative hearings did not get it until uh the last few days, so this.

B

Is the response from the city of westminster city of westminster do not approve water or sewer for.

B

The existing group home at 829 franklin avenue the property owner, must submit a city of westminster.

B

Water and sewer allocation application to determine the amount of water needed for the group.

B

Home use and obtain approval of such application by the city. As for the proposed assisted living.

B

Facility, the property owner must submit a city of westminster, water and sewer allocation application.

B

To determine the amount of the water needed for the proposed assisted living facility use and.

B

Obtained approval of such application by the city please be advised, depending on the proposed use.

B

Water and sewer may not be available at this time. Any approval for a use for com or commencement of.

B

A use that is not obtained an approved city of westminster, water and sewer allocation.

B

Application is in violation of the city of westminster, water and sewer allocation policy.

B

B

And then there is a october 4th uh email from.

B

Carl and lou blessing.

B

Reattach a statement, a lot of it is a cumulative based on the other.

B

Statements that have been made that the last hearing but I'll just go over a few.

B

They were not made aware of the halfway house for women across the street when they bought the house.

B

They stopped sitting on the front porch due to loud vulgar language.

B

Being used by individuals sitting on a front porch of the house at 803.

B

One granddaughter who has a front bedroom often complained about the women and how.

B

Loud, they were even late at night as she could hear them with her window closed.

B

There have been multiple incidences where police and ambulances have been at the house for various.

B

Reasons we have seen, we have seen individuals removed from the house on structures as recent as.

B

July of this year they written they have witnessed arguments and screaming matches in the front yard.

B

People appeared at the house to be high and they.

B

Were stumbling and falling around in the front yard.

B

B

So those two things are additional pieces of will be added to the record.

A

And we'll accept those into evidence.

A

Okay, with that, my recollection is that there, the applicant has.

A

At this point called three witnesses: I'm assuming there are more. Mr bumgardner, that's correct, mr.

A

Chairman, okay, so that's where we'll that's! Where we'll take up! But before we take up there's a.

A

Couple of things make sure that your electronic devices are uh put on silence or vibrate.

A

um And I'm going to remind everybody of the get-go here today uh when people are testifying.

A

Please give them the respect that they deserve when they're testifying. I don't have a gavel.

A

But if I stand up it's going to get ugly, um so I just want to just want to tell you that so.

A

Make sure that when there's testimony, um but you agree or disagree with it, please give the people.

A

Respect that are giving a testimony, there's microphones on the side, for you for everyone.

A

In the audience of the the attorneys, I'm assuming will call their witnesses to the front table here.

A

um With that, I don't know if anyone was here before, but the process is the applicant. Mr.

A

Bumgardner is representing them; uh he would call witnesses after each witness gives their testimony.

A

You will have the opportunity in the audience to ask questions of their testimony.

A

And then I'm assuming mr lazariaga will have witnesses. uh He'll he'll go after.

A

Mr bumgardner, uh you anyone in the audience can ask questions of his witnesses. Testimony.

A

At that point, you can give your own testimony.

A

So again witnesses witnesses. You can only ask questions of their testimony at this point.

A

Do we have a sign-in sheet, so we do have a sign-in if you haven't signed.

A

In on the sign-in sheet, uh there's one down here in the front row.

A

So with that, because this is a different hearing, if you plan on testifying here today or if you're.

A

Questioning any of the witnesses, could you please stand and raise your right hand take the oath.

A

Do you swear or affirm under the penalties of perjury, there's a testimony you were about to.

A

Give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing, but the truth very good. You can be seated. Mr.

A

Bumgardner, mr chairman, thank you very much. Derek benhamgartner from the law firm of whiteford.

C

Taylor and preston on behalf of the applicant mulligan recovery centers a point of clarification.

C

um Real quick um for mr dixon, the email from the community member. There was an address that was.

C

Read with that email, I believe that was 803 yeah franklin avenue and this property is 829 franklin.

C

Avenue I just wanted to clarify that, for the record there was information in that email with.

C

Regard to folks sitting on a porch disturbances, but that was not the property that we're here.

C

For today I don't believe um the address was 803. I just read the letter. Yep understood.

C

Understood uh I believe um mr mr elizariaga has a point of order uh and we're happy to.

D

Thank you uh good morning board members, matthew, lazariaga, that's l-u-z-u-r-I-a-g-a. I do represent.

D

uh Three individuals who are seated here with me, um the only thing I want to bring to the board's.

D

Attention is uh mr mark depot from the city of westminster is here. uh He is not here at.

D

My request he's not under my subpoena. However, I spoke with him briefly yesterday. He informed.

D

Me that he wanted to make sure that his july correspondence made it into the record. But he also.

D

Does not intend to stay here and make sure that the city's interests are represented all day. I.

D

Think he wanted to come, make sure that the letter came in. He may have a few comments and if there.

D

Were any questions from the board of the community? I think he's prepared to answer those, but if I'm.

D

Not mistaken, he has other things to do with the rest of his day. So I don't know if the board.

D

Wants to take that out of turn or not, if, if that's agreeable to you, mr baumgardner, that's fine, sir.

A

Okay, so you can go ahead and I he's not technically your witness, but he's not no.

D

No well it I can ask you, is there anything more you want to add, it appears there is.

A

When you go to the microphone, sir state, your name address occupation and spell for the record your last name.

E

I don't have much to add. They'll never reported out with the requirements are full volume to the.

E

Property, whether you're in the city or outside the city, if you are in city water system, you're,.

E

Subject to the large ensure allocation, that's the landing from nde to ensure that we have available.

E

More deep, within both the city and county again, if you are in the water and sewer system of the of.

E

Westminster the applicant has submitted the water and sewer allocation application 2256 on july 25th.

E

2022 for the assisted living facility, however, just at this time we do not have any water available.

E

For 2022 for residential development in the county that are again on water and sewer in the city.

A

Let me ask: I have no idea about your policies, so I'm a little intrigued a little puzzled.

A

So if, for example, a family of four moves into a house.

A

They sell their house and a family of six moves in. Do they need to make applications.

A

To you, or is this because it went from a residential use to an assisted living facility.

E

If it maintains a single family detached use, they would not have to come back before us.

E

So if it's existing, it has a water envelope. It's anticipated you're using in this case.

E

For single family detached 235 gallons per day, um we look at any change in use and again the group.

E

Home and assisted living facility, we would the application allows us to make that determination.

E

Does it maintain the same allocation? Does it maintain the same function as a single family.

E

Detached if it does, if that's determined, then it's a wash there is no water necessary. The application.

E

Is approved if they do need additional water, one has to be available and two they would have to.

E

Go through a good cause waiver through the mayor and common council to allocate that water to them.

E

So uh so so let me just clarify this is based on the use of the property, not water usage, so.

A

Say, for example, a family that was very water. uh They they can serve their water. They were very.

A

Frugal about it and another family moved in and they used twice as much water. This isn't based on.

A

Water, this isn't based on the water meters. This is based on the use of the property, absolutely.

E

um So everything you want to get that perfectly clear, so office is an example. We use a multiplier.

E

For square footage, same with warehouse same with residential residential is fairly easy. It's 235.

E

For uh 235 gallons per day for a single family detached assisted living facility, we would look.

E

At beds, how many beds are there available or something that effect, and that would be.

E

A multiplier that would tell us how much water needs to be allocated to the property. There's.

E

Always that option or the ability that they don't use that allocation or extend or go beyond that.

E

But the concept is over time and, as you look at the entire system, it balances out and it averages.

E

Out- and this is all working through mde- it's their multipliers- that we use to determine that.

E

We have available water right now. We have about 18, 000 gallons of water left in the city for any.

E

Development throughout the city in the county, so it's very important that we monitor that water.

E

Usage, okay and another question the timeline, because did I hear someone say that the the.

A

Applicant in the bza case today made application to the city in july in july, 20 july, 25th 2022, yes,.

A

So, what's the timeline on your determination, uh we we have a 45-day uh review period for that.

E

um But at the end of the day, if the determination was they need additional water.

E

And we do not have water available for them so that water allocation application cannot.

E

Be approved, tenant of allocation can't be given until that water is available or they go through.

E

The proper process to obtain that water, the problem here, is that the good cause waiver.

E

Cannot you cannot go through that process because there's no water to give them to allocate to them.

E

Because they're categories of there's a certain category for every type of development, commercial.

E

Industrial inside outside city, residential inside out, inside and outside the city and each one of.

E

Those categories has an allocation associated with it that that's taken as new development occurs.

E

In this case, there is no water available in the residential category for outside the city, so we.

E

Can't we they. We cannot approve that application at this time until that water is available.

A

F

Is the allocation that has been applied for is that for the existing eight beds, or is that for assuming expansion to 10 beds.

E

It's for the the what's before you today. The assisted facility assisted living facility.

F

2022, recognizing you don't have a crystal ball, do you have any.

F

Prediction on when it might be available all water in the residential allocation for outside the city.

E

Has been allocated in some fashion up until 2024 until we get a new water source or new.

E

Water source comes along we're trying to work with mde to get additional water through a well.

E

We have a waste water, a pure water program, so until we get that new water source and.

E

We reallocate and redistribute that in some manner. I cannot tell you when and if it would.

E

Be available, it could be six months, it could be three four years. Thank you. Another question.

A

They're presently operating with eight beds, do they have water allocation for that they.

E

Do not we, we did not receive a water sewer allocation application for the group home.

A

Board members, any other questions of mr depots.

A

Okay, well, I know I did a little bit backwards from what we normally do.

A

But does anyone in the audience have any questions of of his testimony.

A

No, no, you have to go to the microphone and identify yourself, sir. Yes, sir.

A

And questions of his testimony you'll be able to give your testimony later. Okay,.

A

Name address occupation: it's spelled for the record. Your last name, james billingsley, jr,.

G

B-I-L-L-I-N-G-S-L-E-A insurance and real estate broker and my address is 329 denton.

G

Drive westminster, maryland, okay, my question was the same as yours, but I just touched base on it.

G

You know this has happened very quickly. These neighborhoods getting group homes whatever you.

G

Want to call them in there, and I don't know that anybody knew there was a check that they had to.

G

Apply for the uh good or for water resources, so you know you answered the question. What.

G

Does that mean when somebody puts in a usage in a property and doesn't get the approval.

G

Is it something that can be stopped based on not just the extra beds, but apparently.

G

There was no approval for any water resources in group homes and I'm just wondering whether.

G

That would be something that would give a cease and desist, or something like that.

A

Mr depot, can you respond to that and if you can't simply state that um and and this isn't uncommon.

E

We're running through this throughout a lot of uses in the county and the city, because we are.

E

Limited uh to how much water we have available in these categories, so it's not uncommon that people.

E

Wait and until that water becomes available, but it would be in violation of the policy and it.

E

Would be a municipal infraction, I believe, for water usage that was not otherwise allocated.

E

So again, where it's complaint driven, we would not know that. Obviously, unless there was some.

E

Unusual spike in the water billing that we would notice that there's maybe some concern as to water.

E

Usage for that property, but again this is not uncommon. That development happens in the county.

E

Prior to water, sewer allocation being granted through the city.

E

Unfortunately,.

A

So to mr billingsley's comment:.

A

At what point does a new owner of a property in the environs that served by sewer and water.

A

Know that they need to make application for well water allocation.

E

I can't speak to the county process. I if they, if a building permit, gets no I'm, I'm speaking count.

A

In the county, but served by westminster, city, sewer and water, which is what we're dealing with today,.

E

There's two possibilities: when a building permit submitted, if it's on city water system, the.

E

Building permit is forwarded to the city for our review and approval. At that point, we would look.

E

At that building permit to determine whether we believe a water and sewer allocation is necessary.

E

So the building permit technically would not be issued until the city signs off in its portion.

E

Of that building permit or if an individual is coming in for a new water meter or new water.

E

Account if somebody buys that property and they come in for a new account, we're going.

E

To look at what the, what the new account is for and ask that question: is it maintaining single.

E

Family is it not or if somebody's asking for a water meter, obviously that's a clear.

E

Giveaway that there should been some review by the city of westminster, okay, so it's been.

A

Testified to in our previous hearing well our hearing that was that's being continued today,.

A

That they went through the permits office in order to get the additional beds in that facility. So why.

A

Wasn't it caught by the county at that point, why why wasn't the city notified when the permits.

A

Were pulled to do the improvements inside the structure I I cannot speak to that. We did not.

E

Receive a permit, we did. We were notified about the application for special exception. That's.

E

When we became aware of the of the assisted living facility, and then we contacted the applicant that.

E

There was a water ensure allocation necessary, which then they did submit that application.

E

um I can't speak to why we did not receive the building permit, because you you said that.

E

We should receive the building permit. Yes, it's not in this case. It did not happen like that. Yes,.

E

Go ahead, mr snyder, thank you very much. So I'm trying to discern.

H

Not necessarily process, but how do? How is the situation deconflicted, because, based on what.

H

I'm understanding is by state law. These folks are allowed to have this facility in this neighborhood.

H

Okay, that so that is a permitted use, whatever the case may be, does the city subordinate to the state.

H

In that the state says this is an allowable use within this residential neighborhood.

H

um So do you conform and subordinate to that or is there a conflict in that.

E

I'm not the city's not subject to the use, whether it's a group home, an assisted living facility or a.

E

Single-Family detached or state law, in this case when it comes to a county development, the only.

E

Thing we're looking at is water availability do do they have do we have the water available for them.

E

To function, do they have the available services necessary for them to function? So that's all.

E

We're looking at we look at the use, we determine water allocation and if we have water available, if.

E

We don't we can't get that water so that that use is not operating. You know, meeting its water sewer.

E

Demands or requirements, and I I understand what you're saying um you know, I understand the four.

H

Corners in which you're speaking the flip side of the equation is that, and these these are my words.

H

And the eyes of the state and allowing this use within residential within the zoning laws.

H

Allowing this within the four corners of the residential use, would they argument made that.

H

This really isn't a change in use, because it's an accepted use within the residential zoning.

E

And that's all part of the water and sewer allocation process again, if, if you're looking.

E

At an assisted living facility and if they have to go through a special exception, I think that.

E

Demonstrates it's not the same use. It's not a single family detached use, otherwise they.

E

Would not need a special exception and we look at the use of system facility. That's what it's.

E

Termed that's what we're being told of this? Not a single family detached an assisted.

E

Living facilities, so that's what we would work on with mde to determine water availability.

E

Again, they can all right. They can make that argument. We do work with people throughout.

E

This process- and we don't want to give water away, we don't have, we want to make sure we're giving.

E

Away the right amount of water, so other people, so it's available for other people, so we do spend a.

E

Lot of time and work closely with applicants to try to get that actual amount of water for usage.

E

But I'd equate it to this if it's a vacant piece of property and they wanted to build.

E

A single-family house- and they didn't have water. They could not build a single family.

E

House and therefore you could not have the yeah and again I'm just trying to get clarity so, but.

H

Essentially, if someone has a home that four people are living in and those folks move.

H

Out and someone that has 10 kids, a family of 10 moves into a home. There's not a need.

H

To do a request for a reallocation of water? Is that correct? That's correct! There's! No change.

E

Of use occurring in this case we're being told it's a change of use occurring, understood, yeah,.

A

Okay, yeah but board members any other questions.

A

Good okay: go ahead! I'm sorry.

F

So in the instance of the water allocations, if I'm understanding this correctly, this is.

F

Similar to the adequate facilities requirements within the county.

E

It's it's similar to it's. It's similar to an adequate public facility requirement.

E

um Again, it's but it isn't it isn't. You need to have water and sewer. You need that service.

E

In this case, it's do we have the available water for them. um So it's it's similar, but.

E

Not the same, it's not an ordinance. It's not um it's! It's a little bit different.

A

I I jumped out of order a little bit as far as the questioning of mr depot.

A

um Mr bumgardner, mr zariaga, do you have questions of his testimony? That's how we should have started.

A

Out, I think I jumped in I'm I I circumvented in my our own policy, no problem, mr baumgardner.

A

Any questions of mr depots, none at this time, okay and but he's not going to be available.

A

Sounds like he wants to get back to. He wants to escape this. He wants those things.

E

As fun as this is, but um so that's fine, thank you. You're good, we're, good, okay,.

A

Very good make sure you identify yourself and remember questions of mr depot's.

A

Testimony my name is rebecca kepner k-e-p-n-e-r. I live at 824, william avenue, I'm a contracted.

I

Have the necessary um things that they need to attend to the activities of.

I

Daily living of the people who are living in the assisted living is that what that means.

E

I I can't answer that question. Okay, again, the the water is still flowing to the building.

E

um It's there's nothing on the water supply going into the building that limits 235.

E

Gallons a day it, it's anticipated that single family house you're going to have 280 one day.

E

100, the next day, 300 one day, 250 another just it's not an absolute, so water's, not not going.

E

To the facility, the issue would be with this use occurring. There then alec they're, then.

E

Using through mde standards and we've accepted water, that was not otherwise allocated, that is.

E

Not available at this time for them so again, they'd be in violation of the policy. It doesn't.

E

uh We got we're not in the we, don't we don't come out and shut people down. Our goal is to comply.

E

And bring people into compliance, so we'd work with the applicant and in this case it really.

E

Is that waiting for that availability of water? And we are working to get more.

E

um In the city, up to 1.5 million more through the water, reuse and pure water system, so once we get.

E

Additional water source, we would look at all these applications like this one that we have waiting.

E

We have several applications that are sitting there, waiting that we cannot approve, because.

E

We don't have water for them that we would then try to ensure that these applications get water.

E

Okay again, the city's not opposed to the use, it's simply water. It's is there water available for.

E

This use, and at this time there is not question, is if there's, if there's increased use by one.

I

Property owner, be it an assisted, living or single family use, does that negative affect negatively.

I

Affect the rest of the community and their ability to access water, no, it does not again.

E

It's the water system is still flowing through the community. It would be this property. This.

E

Property, only each property has its own shut off. Each property has its own meter. So there's.

E

Other ways we can deal with just this property versus the community as a whole. Okay, thank you.

A

Any other questions go to the microphone sirens.

A

State your name address and occupation and spell for the record your last name.

J

Jake tansley t-o-w-n-s-l-e-y 736 david avenue, I'm two doors down from one of the existing facilities.

J

I came to his office or in february to apply for an application for sewage and was denied.

J

And I also like to state that I've worked for the county and retired for 33 years of service here.

J

Lived at 736 david avenue for 47 years, and so I guess I'm reinforcing what he is stating.

J

However, I would water use of. Is that uh but mr townsley, what is your question? Remember.

A

That's that's actual testimony. So what is your question of mr deepak? Why was I denied for the.

J

Sewage, that's all- and I guess this he's going to go back to statement that they're not offering.

J

Any permits outside the county right for the county, uh can you can you speak of that? Mr depot.

J

Yeah, that's yeah. Why was I denied? That's all I'm asking? Oh, this is again it's availability.

E

um I don't think we've denied any application since I've been in the.

E

City we just they're just they're, just not moving forward, so we have. We have.

E

Multiple applications sitting there until availability until availability is there.

E

um So, once again, once we get that availability and sewer availability.

E

um We would reevaluate all these applications. I can't speak specifically to this one. You also.

E

Have to be in the water and sewer service area, if you're outside those areas, we cannot serve.

E

You uh we're not we're not allowed to. You have to extend that water and sewer service area.

E

The other element is too: you have to have water and sewer available close to you. Otherwise, you.

E

Have to extend the water and sewer to your property and a lot of times. That is difficult, so I can't speak specifically about this one, but there could be several.

E

Factors outside of just the water and sewer allocation policy and allocating of water.

A

You go to a microphone please and I'll state your name address and occupation and spell for.

A

The record of your last name: yeah rick, dorsey d-o-r-s-e-y real estate um in in response.

K

To mark here, mr depot's testimony today, I was just curious when the water becomes available.

K

Does the city of westminster, I want to say, first allocate resources within the city limits.

K

Before they would go outside to the county as we're in the county.

K

um And I personally have sewer and water on my street and mr townsley lives only three doors.

K

Up from me, um so that's that's my question: does the city take precedence and those.

K

Applications that are in the city would they take precedence over homes that are outside the.

K

City limits and in the county, but are being serviced by this city's utility. Thank you.

E

No there's no it's on the allocation process. We once we have the amount of out and water available.

E

If we get a new water source and 100 000 gallons become available per day through a new water.

E

Source, we would look at that redistribution of the master table and determine where water should be.

E

Available again, as I stated, any applications we have in-house staff would be arguing. Those should.

E

Be first and foremost, we should be looking at allocating water to those applications that have.

E

Been waiting, anybody in the water and sewer system in the on the city system is served today. It's I'm.

E

Not sure what the question was, but the goal is we. This gets a little bit beyond what we're talking.

E

Today we have a maximum expansion limit around the city. There's the idea is everybody on water.

E

And sewer it someday should be within the city. That's the concept. If somebody wants more water.

E

In the in the city or in the county, um if they're adjacent to the city, they're required to annex.

E

Into the city, so then they become part of the city. If they're outside that annexation potential, they.

E

Go through a good cause waiver and they sign an agreement that at such time they can annex.

E

They will annex in the city. The goal is that the city meets those maximum expansion limits.

E

So it's the benefit is coming to the city absolutely, but that is the goal you these.

E

Properties are in the maximum expansion limit. The goal is, they will someday, be part of the city.

A

Okay, any other questions of mr depot. Yes, sir.

A

Remember questions of his testimony and please state your name address and occupation.

A

And spell for the record, your last name, steve kennedy, 822 fairfield and I'm a school teacher.

L

um Is the federal assume that there are businesses and organizations that are.

L

Playing by the rules and waiting until they get um the waiver or to the water allocation.

M

hmm I don't like the term playing by the rules, so ultimately there was a wild and.

E

Short allocation application submitted for this property, we have multiple rod and show.

E

Allocation applications for properties both in the city and the county that we cannot. We don't.

E

Have water available that are sitting there and waiting um so they can't move forward. We.

E

Can't sign off in that building. Permit they can't they can't expand their business or bring a new.

E

Business in until that allocation is approved and the building permit is otherwise approved.

E

So again, they're they've submitted an application just as anybody else wanting additional water.

L

And just a follow-up have they submitted three applications for the three properties.

E

I can't speak to that. I'm not sure I'm only here for this application in this address.

A

Thank you any other questions on mr depot's. Testimony.

A

Very good, mr depot, you were free to leave the building and thank you for the education on the.

E

Sewer and water master plan for westminster city there's so much more too. So thanks.

A

Thank you for the disruption I mean going going out of order, mr bumgardner. Thank you.

A

Let's continue and uh you can go ahead and call another witness at this point.

A

If you would like thank you, mr chairman, the applicant would call rachel marcus.

C

C

Could you please give the board your full name and your professional address? Please.

N

Rachel marcus, um I have a private practice. We operate out of 1100 business, parkway south.

N

Westminster 21157, I'm a licensed clinical social worker and who was your employer.

N

Recovery, 180 and 80, I'm in a group practice, so it's called it's called counseling group.

C

And miss marcus: do you possess any licenses or certifications in your field yeah? So, as I.

N

Mentioned I'm a licensed clinical social worker um trained in psychotherapy and I've been practicing.

N

Since 2000 uh 12. and if you can just uh provide the board a very brief overview of your education.

C

um Years institutions etc. um So I graduated from franklin high school. I then went to.

N

College park university of maryland from 2000 to 2004 and then I went and got a.

N

Master's degree in social work from university of maryland, baltimore graduated there in 2012.

C

And miss marcus. What is your involvement with mulligan recovery, centers.

N

So I um being a professional in the community, I myself am also in long-term recovery from.

N

Substance abuse I have 14 years clean and sober, so I became involved in the recovery community.

N

Personally, and as well as professionally, I worked at um carroll, county youth service.

N

Bureau and then a few other substance, abuse treatment, centers and over the years, mulligan.

N

Treatment center has been part of our resources in terms of the community. It's a referral source.

N

For my private practice, also several other um substance abuse treatment, centers that I.

N

Have worked for, we would refer clients back and forth to mulligan for substance abuse, treatment.

N

So hopefully, that answered everything it does. Thank you in your experience thus far. How has.

C

Mulligan been um as a as either a referral source or working with working with residents at mulligan.

N

So there's two parts to this. I think my my experience referring clients to mulligan.

N

Through the treatment centers that I've worked at has been extremely positive, they.

N

Have a really well-run admissions department and clients feel really connected just just.

N

By getting on the phone with their admissions people, um they really want to get to know the.

N

Clients before they admit them, it's not something where they just take. Anyone they're really pretty.

N

um You know they use discretion in who they're admitting to their program, because I I've from.

N

What I've gathered it's, it's really important to them to have a community that is healthy.

N

And positive and have people that really clients that really want to be successful and aren't just.

N

Looking for you know a place to live, so that's been really positive and then I myself have.

N

Worked with clients who are in mulligan and I'll do the mental health side of the treatment and the.

N

Clients are really happy, like they're, really part of a community they're part of a a program that.

N

Really feels like they are cared about and valued, and um you know they meet their requirements and.

N

And really, what I've heard about moga and most is that they're um they hold the clients accountable.

N

It isn't just a place where they can kind of get away with lots of stuff. It has a reputation of.

N

Being pretty structured and pretty uh well run and clients, don't just get to kind of.

N

Goof off and do whatever they want, they really do have to adhere to the the rules and the the.

N

Policies of the program, so that's my experience from from working with their clients directly.

C

Do you plan on continuing to counsel clients and residents at 829 franklin avenue? I do yes.

C

Can you very briefly describe for the board members.

C

um Strike that you were here on the august 31st date correct, yes, and you heard the.

C

Testimony from helen and brian mccall, yes, you hear the testimony from frank beck. Yes,.

C

uh There was testimony during day one of of this hearing regarding a level 3.1 treatment.

C

Yes, can you provide again a very brief overview or summary of what level 3.1 treatment is all about.

N

um So level 3.1 is, in my experience, a step down program. So it's clients that have completed some.

N

Sort of inpatient longer term treatment so that their mental health or substance abuse issues are.

N

At least stable enough to be back in the community, um so the idea of a 3.1 is to give clients an.

N

Opportunity to have a little bit more time, while they're still living in a structured program, while.

N

They're still receiving clinical services, but they don't need this 24 7. You know in one building.

N

Can't leave kind of set up, they're they're more given a little bit more freedom and it's it's.

N

Sort of a gateway to getting back to independent living having their own place, you know really.

N

Living on their own again, so it's it's a bit of a bridge is my perspective. Thank you very much.

C

From your experience, thus far with mulligan and your understanding from being in the hearing on.

C

On august, 31st is your understanding that this application is to increase services from eight.

C

Residents to ten residents is that correct? Yes, in your professional opinion, will that.

C

Slight increase from eight residents to ten residents uh offer more opportunity for folks.

C

In the community to receive service at this residential treatment center, yes,.

C

Lastly, our um miss marcus: are you aware of any other level 3.1 treatment centers in.

C

The greater carroll county area at this time and if you're, not that's fine, I am aware of.

N

um Definitely one, I think, two, um but there there's to my knowledge, no more than that.

C

Is there a need for more 3.1 services in the greater carroll county area.

N

Fully believe there is I, having worked at inpatient substance abuse, there's a there's.

N

A real difficulty in finding after care programs that are available for clients to to kind of have.

N

That experience of still having structured living, but also you know, having a bit more.

N

Freedom, so that they can get used to living back in the world, and you know either beds- are full or.

N

The programs just don't exist, so, yes, I think it's much needed.

C

Thank you. Those are all the questions I have for miss marcus at this time.

A

Okay, does anyone in the audience have any questions of ms marcus's? Oh I'm sorry.

D

I wore my camouflage suit today.

A

Okay, mr lazariaga, thank you uh miss marcus good morning good morning.

D

um Congratulations on your success. Thank you.

D

um Do you have any licensure or graduate degrees or advanced studies in the area of zoning? I don't.

D

How about land planning? No surveying? No? Okay, um your testimony regarding being a referral.

D

Source back and forth between either your own practice or your employer and mulligan. I know.

D

What I'm talking about your testimony was that they have very good admissions process.

D

And they're known for holding their clients accountable. Yes, have you ever in your private.

D

Practice or for your employer made a referral to mulligan that was turned down by mulligan.

N

Yes, do you know how many times that's happened? um I mean in my experience. I think it was one time it.

N

Might have been a second time, but I know for sure it was at least once okay and uh your testimony.

D

Regarding the description of a 3.1 level of care facility, I believe you uh before you got to the.

D

Term a bridge you said in my experience uh to your knowledge: is it a requirement of anybody in a 3.1.

D

Level of care to have successfully completed a higher level before they will be admitted.

N

Is it a requirement for 3.1s as a whole or for mulligans 3.1 for any 3.1 as a whole? It's not.

N

A requirement no okay and um you were present at the prior hearing. I believe you answered- is that.

D

Correct, yes- and you heard um I don't recall- who testified to it specifically, but that more than.

D

At least half of the residents at 829 came from out of carroll county. Do you recall that yeah I.

N

Don't recall the exact um specifics of it, but yes, I know that was that was touched on. Yes,.

D

Okay, so how does that square with your testimony that there is a need for more.

D

3.1 level of care treatment facilities within the county.

D

Sure, if the testimony is that- and this is my words if it's more than half but it's it's more.

D

Than zero of the current residence at 829 are from out of carroll county and you've testified.

D

There is at least one probably two other 3.1 levels: level facilities within the county.

D

If mulligan is already receiving clients from out of county.

D

How do you say for certain the county has a need for more 3.1 facilities? I guess in my.

N

Mind and center and for clients that want to run into the carroll county area like.

N

We're from there but had gone to treatment, maybe in baltimore, county or baltimore city.

N

And wanted to come back to carroll county there, weren't often weren't beds, available.

N

um I mean that's the best way. I could answer that. When is the last time that happened.

O

N

I would say um probably like a year ago, but I that's the last time I was working at the.

N

Inpatient facility that was referring so like about a year, maybe 18 months. I don't have anything.

D

Further, okay: does anyone in the audience have any questions of ms marcus's testimony.

A

A

Okay, thank you, ms marcus. Mr chairman, I have one quick question I want to redirect. If that's.

C

Allowed go ahead um just very briefly, ms marcus. um If you're aware uh how long has mullingan.

C

Been operating at this particular property, 829 franklin avenue if you're aware, I'm not sure.

C

It's been six months, has it been a year objection asked and answered.

N

Thank you very much. Okay,.

A

Mr baumgartner, would you like to call another witness? Yes, mr.

C

Chairman, uh the applicant would like to call danielle arters.

C

C

Okay, it's very sensitive okay good morning, mr artist, if you can, please provide the board your.

C

Full name and your professional um address would be miss danielle, arters a-r-t-e-r-s. My address.

P

Is 529 congressional drive? What else did you want? That's it? Who is your employer mulligan.

P

Recovery centers and what is your role with mulligan director of housing, community relations.

C

And do you have any certifications um currently in this field, I'm a certified peer recovery, coach.

C

You were here on august 31st during day one of this hearing correct. Yes,.

C

And you hear the testimony of helen and brian mccall, yes, anna, frank beck. Yes,.

C

Like to ask you uh just a few brief questions regarding housing at mulligan recovery, centers.

C

During day one, there was a little bit of confusion with regards to the number of folks.

C

In the property, currently what was authorized and how housing works? um Can you very briefly explain.

C

How the housing component at mulligan recovery centers works specific to this property at 829.

C

Franklin avenue: are you talking about how many people are there correct? Currently right now,.

P

We are providing care for six clients and there are two staff members living there.

C

What is the maximum number of residents? You are currently authorized to a serve eight clients.

P

And we have uh ten beds are in the house, so if we served eight clients, then we have two.

P

Staff members in living in the facility and how do folks find their way to you, oftentimes, referred by.

P

Treatment, centers drug court programs, we work with a health department, the hospitals in this area.

C

If this application were approved, how would those numbers that you just described change.

P

We would be serving two more clients with the two staff members who currently reside in the property.

C

Still resign in the property. No, if we were able to serve 10 clients in the house, then the two.

P

Staff would be transitioned into an apartment or another place to live, which we would help with.

C

Is there currently a wait list for mulligan? There is, however, we have two beds open.

P

Because we are very careful about who we accept.

P

I did receive three calls yesterday for women in need, uh one of which I've decided to accept.

P

And uh the other bed is being held for a woman that we are dealing with with the court system.

C

Yeah, how many vehicles are currently on site from residents from residents correct two.

P

There are four vehicles there at any given time. Two belong to staff, two belong to the residents.

P

There and when people come in just if, even if they are allowed like, if they have a legal license and.

P

A legal vehicle it doesn't mean they're allowed to have their vehicle there. What other criteria.

C

Do you use uh to determine whether or not they're they are allowed to have their vehicle there? Well.

P

Depends on each individual recovery process where they're at sometimes a vehicle can be.

P

The trigger, sometimes the vehicle can be the reason to just go and do the bad things. You know.

P

um Sometimes a vehicle can lead them to it. They have to be at a good place.

P

In the recovery process, in order to be responsible enough to be allowed to go.

P

Out and drive if you come into our program and you have duis in in your past- probably.

P

Not best you're behind the wheel vehicle until you can prove that you are stable.

C

How often would you say you are at this property every day.

C

In your everyday experience, is there parking or traffic congestion along this road? No. Is there.

C

Parking or traffic congestion throughout this neighborhood no from our building, there's been.

P

Some construction at the end of the road from time to time, but yeah when counselors or clinicians or.

C

Visitors visit a residence at this property. Have you ever heard them ever heard? Them complain.

C

About not being able to find parking either on site or directly in front of the property. No.

C

That's all I have let me stream, mr zariaga.

D

I guess, by way of a clarification just for my own personal curiosity, ms orders, um if there's.

D

A wait list, but the two beds that you talked about one was just.

D

Admitted yesterday and one's on hold for somebody in the court system when you're talking about a.

D

Waitlist, are you talking about a wait list for 8 29? Yes, okay, all right, fair enough! Nothing further!.

A

Okay, anyone in the audience have any questions of ms arter's testimony.

A

Go to the microphone please again state your name address and you.

A

Don't need to spell for the record your last name, you already did that success.

G

James billingsley jr, 329, denton drive westminster, maryland occupation, real estate broker insurance.

G

Agent, so the questions are coming up here that are like making my mind race. So the big question.

G

That I heard from mark depot's testimony is that, even though the state says question.

G

It leads to that okay, okay, because they said well you're supposed to when there's a change.

G

Of usage, whether the state calls it that or not that, obviously the city or county does.

G

uh Do you did your company realize that when you changed that you had to apply for water resources.

G

Even for the eight beds or six beds, or whatever you're allowed in these types of things, so did.

G

You know that you had to apply for that, or can you just buy a place and if you can get six beds or.

G

Eight beds in the building you can just go ahead and start using it with no other applications. No.

P

We knew we had to apply and we have you knew you had to apply to increase to eight beds or ten beds.

G

Right for 10 beds is consisted, assisted living, so there's a distinction between what you call.

G

It based on the number of beds well in eight beds, I just still not an assisted living facility. It.

G

Isn't considered a residential, that's what it's considered! Well, I'm not going to beat that part.

G

Of it to death, I thought I heard something that said you know. Did you do any uh construction to.

G

Get the additional beds in there before when you had eight beds, did you do construction.

G

To create the eight beds, I'm not a construction consultant, sir. I just work there. No, your company.

G

Bought the property so did they have to do any construction to create it to eight beds.

Q

I don't know because if you don't know you, if you had to do construction, then a permit.

G

Would have had to have been applied for mr chair resources, water resources would have.

G

Been met prior to this is that's a testimony. That's testimony. Okay, I'm sorry! I will move on.

A

Okay, anyone else in the audience have questions yes go to the microphone.

A

Please you were a lead, arriver correct. Yes, sir, I was we're. Gonna have to swear you in.

A

Okay, so go to the microphone and I'm gonna ask you to.

A

Raise your right hand, do you swear or firm under the penalties of perjury, that the testimony you're.

A

About to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I do okay and um now other.

A

Rules, please state your name, address occupation and spell for the record your last name. My name is.

R

Thomas wrightson, I live at 701, william avenue, I'm retired. My last name is spelled w-r-I-g-h-t-s-o-n.

R

And my question has to do with the statement was made about um the parking and driving at 8.

R

29 specifically, um I I heard spoken that um in order to drive one of the, the residents has to.

R

Be in a good space has to be in a good place that they are able to drive. Is there any safeguards? My.

R

Question is: are there any safeguards, such as breathalyzer things in the cars and I'm only.

R

Asking this because there is, this is a residential neighborhood and there are lots of children there.

R

Are lots of of senior people me included that you know I'm concerned for the safety of all.

R

The other residents in the neighborhood as to are these people. How do you determine what's a good.

R

Place I mean, is it just, are you feeling good today or is there some kind of a breathalyzer.

R

Test or something that they do before they can drive the car and that's my question.

P

Listen, I appreciate your question greatly and I agree with you. I too myself have three children.

P

And there are breathalyzers that are done regularly daily every single day and two of.

P

Our clients, who will have the vehicles currently do have programs work with a program that they.

P

Have a breathalyzer in their vehicles yeah. We were very careful about what happens in the community.

P

We don't play around, we really don't, I would hope. Not and again our concern is.

R

The safety of the neighborhood, we again it's a residential, neighborhood, seniors children.

R

People walk their dogs all the time. That's included! That's testimony, mr wrightson, so.

A

You have the opportunity, I promise you to give your own. My question is the answer. Thank you.

R

Very much okay! Thank you. Okay, miss kettner, rebecca kepner. I live at 824, william avenue um in talking.

I

About moving from eight beds to ten beds for residents, you spoke that there are two staff.

I

Currently living in the home and that those staff would no longer be living in the home if this is a.

I

3.1, how are the staff going to be able to oversee the residents if they're not living in the home.

P

Just like anybody would report to any other job if they're not living in the home, they.

P

Would still come for their shift, there are two on for a specific shift and there are.

P

Two on for night for a specific shift, our two night staff do not live in the home.

P

They just report for their shift. Thank you.

A

Any other questions go to the microphone foreign.

S

Avenue retired teacher.

S

um You've said that uh you are a certified peer recovery, coach and you've said that.

S

You were there every day, so you know the layout of the house and how things work.

S

I'm curious as to are there how many bedrooms are there.

S

Six six, so if you get two more people or four more people, people will have to share a bedroom.

P

The beds are already laid up in each bedroom to fit 10 people total their. The beds are already set.

P

Up in each bedroom, the beds are already there. The bedroom is already there. It's just empty.

S

Okay, when this house was listed for sale last year, the square footage was noted as 2233 square feet.

S

I'm just wondering your observations.

S

And your professional trained opinion. How do? Because, if you get two more.

S

There will be 10 residents and two employees, that's 12 people in that square; footage. How.

S

Can this help with recovery? How do they not get on each other's nerves, just human nature? You have.

S

To share three bathrooms: with 12 people: laundry facilities, cooking noise: how? How can this help.

S

With recovery, when there are people who are coming out of what might be the worst time of their lives,.

S

um And maybe needing privacy. How does this happen in 2233 square feet? Well,.

P

I will say if the employees no longer live there, they won't be showering there.

P

And they would probably order lunch like if you would at any other job you know. So it does look a.

P

Little different, as far as the clients, they look for the staff, the clients all work together. We.

P

Maintain a very healthy environment of recovery. We are very big on having a positive attitude.

P

And overall outlook of nothing but recovery in order for them to be a success in society, that is.

P

The end goal to have people coming in to separate from addiction and be successful in society to be.

P

A successful member of this community, these women work together. They work hard. They get along great.

P

They are, they have savings accounts. Today they are going back to school. Today they do online.

P

Courses for their ged for college, they are working, they are showing up to be able to be their mothers.

P

They are showing up to be able to be daughters. These women are doing amazing things and if you.

P

Had seen them six months ago, you'd never believe it, and that is the point of everything that we're.

P

Doing here today is to be able to help women be strong women, independent women. Members of this.

P

Society in this community to be there to show up for everyone in this room at some point or another.

P

It's very important and the need is there. There are other three-point ones, they have.

P

Recently closed, it recently closed, I'm getting bombarded with calls all day long to help people.

P

And I just don't have it, I don't have the resources to be able to do so.

P

Yes, we have a waiting list, we are very particular and at the end of the.

P

Day, this is for two beds, however, those two beds are two women who are able to.

P

Change their entire life, the trauma that these people go through that I hear of when they.

P

Come into our care, the rapes, the abuse, the being told that they're worthless that they're nothing.

P

These women are able to turn all of that around they're able to let go of that trauma. They're.

P

Able to work with mental health professionals they're able to do things for themselves and.

P

See that they are able to be a healthy member of society, it's very important. The need is there.

S

So each person feels that they have enough privacy, yes, ma'am. Okay, thank you.

A

Okay, go to the microphone either way.

A

Name, address occupation and spell for the record your last my name, danny wilson,.

Q

I live at 329 margaret avenue last name w-I-l-s-o-n, I'm retired special ed teacher.

Q

My question is, I heard you say that you have you need more space and stuff how many facilities does.

Q

Mulligan have total not just in our neighborhood but elsewhere, or did they just decide? They wanted.

Q

To buy these facilities in our neighborhood and you don't have them elsewhere, that's my question.

P

So I will say this mulligan recovery centers has two 3.1 facilities and one iop center.

P

That is what mulligan recovery centers has. Are they in our neighborhood or the elsewhere?.

P

One of those facilities is located in your neighborhood. The other facility is located.

P

On main street, okay, good, that's the question I had. Thank you, mr president, go to the microphone.

A

Did you come in late? No, no! I didn't! Oh yes, you did. Thank you for your honesty.

A

So raise your right hand, sir. Do you swear or affirm under the penalties of perjury, there's.

A

A testimony you're about to give is the truth. The whole truth is nothing but the truth. Yes,.

A

Very good name address occupation and spell for the record your last name, uh earl meineke. It's.

T

M-E-I-N-E-C-K-E 805, william avenue retired. You said you had six bedrooms.

T

Tell me how that can be when most of these homes in this neighborhood only have three. Are people.

T

Living in the basement did you convert other places like a garage or something to a bedroom.

T

Please explain that what I know is that when I came into that property there were six bedrooms.

P

There that's what I can attest to those six bedrooms are quite comfortable for the.

P

People that are staying there and it has been approved by the fire marshal. That's what I know.

T

That would be something to see, because I don't that's all I have okay. Thank you any other.

A

Questions go to the microphone. Oh I'm sorry! I didn't see you standing at the microphone. My.

U

Name is shelly young, I'm at 645 denton drive north. I work for gold's gym eldersburg, but I'm currently.

U

On medical leave, my question is that you made the statement about mulligan recovery centers, but I.

U

Would actually like to know how many mulligan sober living homes you have in the community two.

U

Total of two so they're, actually in our community as well and not elsewhere. Yes, thank you.

A

Okay, yes, ma'am, go go to the microphone.

A

Name address yvonne zaminski.

V

Z-E-M-I-N-S-K-I I live at 732, david avenue and I'm a retired banker. I would like to know what.

V

It qualifies for you to be certified as your peer recovery. What does and how long have you.

V

Been certified uh approximately almost a year, I've been certified and you have to take a class.

P

And special courses a number of hours- it's a nine month course, okay, that you have to take.

V

Okay and that's all that's required to be that okay, you have to pass the course but yeah sure.

V

um Do you know the rate of recidivism for your clients.

V

I'm sorry: what was that I think I'm pronouncing it correctly. Do you know the rate of your recidivism.

V

Where they relapse of your clients, we have about an 85 success rate.

V

Okay, so 15 percent can relapse okay. Well, anybody can relapse. I have six years myself and I could.

P

Go out and relapse, it's the willingness sure, I'm sure. Okay, thank you. You're welcome.

A

Okay, any other questions board members, questions.

A

Hi hi, currently awaiting.

W

Weddings that are living at age 29. Are they causing the wait list if they didn't hold those.

W

Beds, other people be able to come in no ma'am. We have two beds so we're currently serving six.

P

Clients we are approved for eight clients, we have two beds: open, okay and and so you're just.

W

Being uh choosy about the two going in there, that's why careful? Yes, I believe that some of.

P

Them who call and need our help need a little more time and an inpatient treatment center.

P

um There's just different things, it's case by case some people have to switch.

P

um Certain things they're doing in their treatment process where they are at the.

P

Moment and then we also work very closely with the court systems and the drug court programs.

P

So making sure that there is a bed available for someone that they would like to refer to.

P

Us who might be a good fit things like that? Okay- and this is a 3.1 level- is there something after.

W

This or once they pass your program get through your program, they become part of the community.

W

Well, our 3.1 level of care is set up in a way that it's broken down by phases when people come.

P

In they have to go through certain phases and when they come in, we help them get acclimated.

P

With all the things that they might need to be stable in a community, but they are not allowed.

P

To phase up without having stable employment for 60 days without having a savings account with at.

P

Least a thousand dollars in it. uh They have to prepare themselves to be able to go out and be.

P

You know great members of society stable members in society.

P

um So we are, the goal is to set them up to be able to transition out and live on their own.

P

And be successful, some of them are not prepared to do that when their time is up with us. Some.

P

Of them will transition on and pay rent at a recovery house elsewhere in the community.

P

um For our women we don't have a step-down program for them to come into a recovery house. That is.

P

Under mulligan sober homes, or anything like that, this is our only women's facility, which is why the.

P

Need is so great, uh but we do work closely with other recovery houses in the area in the community.

P

To see that you know they have a safe place to go, that is recovery-based environment and that they.

P

Are able to be successful when they leave us, and I apologize. I think I asked this last time, but I.

W

Don't remember the answer so um if half and that's questionable, but if half of them don't come from.

W

This county do they stay in this county after they get through your program for the most part, not all.

P

Of them no and a lot of the people as like rachel was saying, is that they are here. They are carroll.

P

County members and the reason they call to come to us is because they they went out and they got into.

P

Some stuff and then they went to treatment and they want to come back to what they consider home.

P

And we are the only women's facility currently right now that is operating.

P

At this level of care, because the other two have recently closed just in the past week.

W

Monitor them after they they get through your program. Well, we set up a they. We have after.

P

Care treatment that they are allowed to step down to and attend. um We stay in constant contact with.

P

Them we have people who go into an op program where they come in and they get a treatment for.

P

An hour once a week they are able to check in and all the women that come through our program. I am I.

P

Build a rapport with and maintain relationships with to make sure that they are doing very well.

W

And that's voluntary! That's voluntary! Thank you. You're welcome board members.

A

Any questions, thank you for your testament. Wait a minute. Do you have any recross? No, sir? Okay.

A

No, thank you. Okay. Thank you. Okay, thank you for your testimony. Thank you.

C

Mr chairman, our last witness will be matthew, stout.

X

Y

Matthew stouts three six, four: zero keystone avenue baltimore maryland, um I'm the manager of.

Y

Operations at foundations recovery center: let's go for the record, your last names. Oh sorry, s-t-o-u-t.

Y

Like the beer or the teapot and mr stout, uh what is uh foundation's recovery center.

Y

We are a 30-day partial hospitalization program to kind of clarify that it would.

Y

Be before someone steps down to a 3.1 level or a sober living level, we are the intensive 30-day.

Y

um Hospitalization period of intense clinical programming and separation from detox or the.

Y

Street varying cases and what is your role at foundations, so I manage the operations.

Y

Day-To-Day we're a seven day a week 365 day a year, operation um oversee all the.

Y

Operations staff work directly with clinical staff and specifically case management as well.

C

And mr stats, do you have any licenses, certifications or specific training in.

Y

This field- I do not- I have a degree in journalism- that's very uh irrelevant- to do this field and.

C

Your role with foundations is in operations, correct, correct and in that role you are not.

C

Required to be certified or licensed no, sir, when does your involvement uh with mulligan.

Y

My direct involvement with them is, uh I was the case manager at foundations for.

Y

um A little over a year before stepping into my current role, and so I was a referrer directly to.

Y

Them and now I remain in that state uh more so as a advocate for certain clients in our.

Y

Program depending if they meet the requirements of mulligan um and kind of holding the standard.

Y

That mulligan requires before we refer to mulligan and as a referral source. How has your relationship.

C

Been with mulligan, thus far, uh personally excellent professionally better than that, probably.

C

Well, you continue to refer clients to mulligan, absolutely.

C

And mr stout, you were here during the august 31st hearing correct, I was, and you hear the testimony.

C

Of helen and brian mccall, I did and frank beck. I did and you understand that this application.

C

Is to increase mulligan's capacity from eight beds to residents to ten beds for residents.

C

Correct that is my understanding from your position as a referral source for residents to.

C

Mulligan will this increase in two beds, help you to further refer clients and patients to mulligan.

Y

The short answer is yes, and the longer answer is historically with mulligan. We are very picky about.

Y

Who we refer to them to begin with, just because of their involved admission requirements? And I think.

Y

I'm at where uh we're more like a 50 approval rate from them. So the the answer is yes,.

Y

We wish there were more like mulligan um outside of carroll county as well. We wish they were more.

Y

Like mulligan, thank you very much, sir. That's all I have, mr chairman. Thank you. Let's do zoriaga.

D

um Mr stout, have you.

D

um Been into the residence at 8, 29 franklin, I have not been inside of that residence. No sir.

D

And do you have any uh formal training, education.

D

Or experience in the area of zoning, no, sir, uh how about surveying? No sir.

D

I don't have anything further.

A

Okay, any questions of mr stout's testimony from anyone in the audience.

A

Board members: oh: wait a minute go ahead: okay,.

K

um Identify yourself please rick, dorsey 716 david avenue.

K

um uh Just a quick question uh as far as relapse rate compared to these folks going.

K

Back to maybe a family member which happens sometimes if they haven't burned those bridges.

K

What is the relapse rate comparatively to these group homes, sober living homes, halfway houses.

K

Compared to them living with a family member, could you shed some light on that or do you know this is.

K

You know those those particular facts thanks. Mr chairman, I would it's a very valid question in.

C

Terms of recovery, although I would object um it wasn't subject to the direct examination, um I'm.

C

A little bit fuzzy on the question, and I and since we're offering mr stata as a witness merely as a.

C

Referral source for mulligan- I I don't think we've qualified him to answer that question directly.

A

Could could you restate your question as it relates to.

A

What his testimony was, and as it relates to mulligan.

Y

Okay, I'd be happy to talk to you after too a bit more about that.

X

Mr perry hi, my name is bruce parrish. I live at 260.

X

Sophia avenue I work for social security administration and uh my last last name.

X

Is spelled p-a-r-r-I-s-h? My question for mr stout is: where is your facility located.

Y

Baltimore county baltimore county- I can give you an exact address as well. Okay, that's helpful.

X

um So your your referring people from baltimore county to a group home in carroll, county, correct.

Y

Yes, however, we get referrals to us from carroll county. Often that is the first filtering process.

Y

For considering mulligan is bringing a carroll county resident back to carroll county through.

Y

The proper, uh the best care and through the proper channels, okay, great we've, got a tremendous amount.

A

Any other questions board members questions of mr stout's testimony.

A

Thank you, mr style. Thank you so much.

A

Mr baumgardner, you had said in the previous.

A

Hearing that you wanted to be able to recall any.

A

Of your witnesses, do you want to recall any of your witnesses.

C

If you would have asked me that question before mr depot's testimony, I would have said no.

C

um But I think we'll leave that uh to address during closing and I don't believe uh that we'll.

C

Be recalling any witnesses at this time? Okay, at this point, let's go ahead and take about a.

A

Five or a ten minute break we're about halfway between here and the beginning and lunchtime.

A

We'll go ahead and call the bza meeting back to order.

A

Mr baumgardner, before we get started, no, no second guessing you're you're done that's correct, sir.

A

Thank you, okay, mr mazariaga, mr mr lazariaga you're up. Thank you, mr chair. You can call you.

A

Can uh you already had your opening statement? Yes, uh so uh with that, if you want to call witnesses.

A

um Go right ahead. Thank you. uh My first witness would be to my direct left, katie townsley.

D

uh Miss townsley, uh can you provide your name spelling your first and last.

D

And occupation and address for the record, my name is katherine.

Z

L-E-Y I live at 731 david avenue.

Z

Sorry, I'm going to reconfigure this. If that's all right with mr, can it reach I'll sit here.

D

uh Miss townsley: what do you do professionally? My career is that I am the development and community.

Z

Engagement manager for the carroll county, public library systems, I'm also a 21-year.

Z

Member of the recent community volunteer fire department, where I hold the elect of the position.

Z

As vice president- and I am also the public information officer and chairman of the board.

D

Surprised you have time to be here today, there's more.

D

um And you gave your address for the board. Do you live in the fairfield neighborhood? I have. I do yes.

Z

And how long have you lived there? I was born and raised at 736 david avenue, where I lived through.

Z

Up until college I left for college and graduate school, and then I bought my home in 2007 back in.

Z

The neighborhood, where you live presently correct: okay. um How and when did you first.

D

Become aware of mulligan's presence within your neighborhood, I have my dog owner and I walk my.

Z

Dogs twice a day and I did notice the first house moving into the neighborhood in the fall of 2021.

D

And which um address was that 829, franklin? Okay and that's the case where your house we're here to.

D

Talk about today, that is correct all right. um What what specifically did you observe um increase in.

Z

um Obviously, that the residents had moved from being a family to no longer seeing the children.

Z

um And the in the family, who was there to being more of a transient traffic with unfamiliar faces.

Z

In the neighborhood of vehicles that we weren't familiar with cars, parking on the street and not.

Z

Just in the driveway most of our neighbors park, if they can, in their driveway or in their garage.

Z

But there it was more vehicles on the street, some with out-of-state tags, which is always alarming.

D

Okay, um 829 specifically had prior to mulligan's.

D

Occupation of that house have you ever been inside of it. I have not. Okay, um since the.

D

Occupation of 829 franklin by mulligan have you noticed any increase in vehicular traffic. Yes,.

D

Can you describe approximate amounts times of day anything like that that you recall.

Z

um Well, in the evenings uh throughout the day- and this is, are we specifically talking about.

Z

The 8 29 are we talking about mulligan in general in the neighborhood, let's uh start with a29, okay,.

Z

So that I do you do notice the traffic coming up and down franklin avenue. You do notice.

Z

Traffic coming into david avenue, which is the direct route to route 32, where I live.

Z

um And then franklin avenue where the house is, they would go up and down that to be able to.

Z

Exit either out to 32 or to 97. um depending on that. So um yes, but is there anything that.

D

um You've noted that can help. You specifically attribute this traffic to mulligan recovery.

D

Services, um so they do have a van that operate in the neighborhood and also.

Z

Carroll transit is now in the neighborhood making stops at the homes delivering clients.

D

um Since 829 franklin became occupied by mulligan, have you noticed any change in noise levels in the.

D

Community, occasionally, yes, can you describe those um they've had several gatherings that we have.

Z

Witnessed there's been their increase, then, with the parking on the street, um specifically that.

Z

Makes it more difficult with vehicles getting through the neighborhood and then, as far as.

Z

They have a large in-ground pool in the back of the house, where they do tend to have gatherings.

D

Same question, since they started occupying 829, have you noticed any increase in trash.

D

Production at that location, most homes do put out two trash cans which is allotted by most.

Z

Trash companies for residential facilities, the this particular home, has five trash cans.

D

And is there any other type of activity which I have not asked you about that you.

D

Have noticed in the neighborhood since mulligan started occupying 829 franklin.

Z

um Miss mccall did testify regarding the assistance that was given to a drug bust.

Z

That happened in the neighborhood. That is not something that we have typically had prior to.

Z

That but she did mention that the residents assisted in the the identification of the.

Z

Individual who is involved in that matter, they're are differing opinions. Regarding that, though,.

D

Well, let me ask you specifically: do you are you aware of the circumstance that she described and.

D

What happened for the drug bust? Yes, yes, sir! What is your recollection of what occurred.

Z

um That there was an individual in a vehicle who um was from baltimore, who was found at a.

Z

Home on david avenue, which is also a sober living home that was mentioned last hearing as having.

Z

Relations with mulligans, even though they are not associated or owned, and operated together.

Z

But they do collaborate and assist each other's clients where the vehicle was found and there was.

Z

A large amount of drugs found in there as well as weapons. There was a high-speed police chase that.

Z

Occurred in the neighborhood, with over 20 law enforcement offices from multiple jurisdictions.

Z

And an arrest of two individuals was made that day, and that was in july of this year. That is correct.

D

um I'm going to show you what I have marked.

D

As opposition one, um can you tell me what we're looking at here? uh This is a.

Z

Map that is provided by the county. It was part of the packet of information that was.

Z

um In your exhibits, when the application was filed, okay- and is it fair- is this from a zoom.

D

Into the tax map, it is a zooming yes, sir of the document that was in their application.

D

Okay and have you made any uh highlights or markings on this document? um I did highlight.

Z

The plot number as um 107, which is in pink when with a black marking around it, and that is 829.

Z

Franklin avenue, okay, so 107 is the lot number within the development. Not the address is that is.

O

Correct, okay- and I see there are three other lots that have been marked or otherwise highlighted.

D

What are those um number 12 is also a mulligan property and that's located at 744 david avenue.

Z

That was the second property that they purchased and number 85 is 802, franklin avenue, which is the.

Z

Third property that they have purchased within the last year um on franklin avenue and number 35 is.

Z

I don't remember the house, I think it's 803 david avenue, which is known as maddie house, which um the.

Z

um Mulligan has testified that they have relations with the help, their clients, okay, and um did you.

D

Prepare this exhibit, as far as the highlights uh to provide the board with a visual depiction.

D

Of how close in proximity some of these locations are, I did. Are you aware of any other neighborhood.

D

In carroll county, who has four assisted living or recovery houses within the same area, as shown.

D

On this map, I am not uh mr chair, I would move for admission of opponents, one no objection.

D

Up mr dixon's, going to help me out. Thank you, sir, and we will accept that into evidence.

D

Now I know I just took the uh map away from you, miss townsley, but for context, it's okay. I don't.

D

Thank you. um How? How close are these houses to each other uh in if you were to walk from one.

D

To the other they're within 500 yards from the furthest house to the closest house there within.

Z

Two blocks of each other: okay and approximately. If you're walking your dog, how long would it take.

D

For you to get from one to the other, it depends which house you're leaving for from. If you're.

Z

Leaving from the two houses on franklin, it would take you less than two minutes down the house.

Z

There's maybe six houses between them? If that I don't have the map in front of me to physically.

Z

Count if you're leaving from the house on david avenue to go to the house on franklin, it may take.

Z

You five minutes. It's just around the corner. Have you ever personally observed pedestrian traffic.

D

Between mulligan locations I have, and at what times of day, all hours of the day and the night.

D

When you say all hours of the night, how late are you talking about? um I've observed traffic coming.

Z

Into the homes on david avenue, specifically since that is where I live up at 10 o'clock,.

Z

In the evening, I've seen traffic that has come in after the curfew that they mentioned as well.

D

Okay- and you were present uh at the first hearing date in this case- is that right? Yes, sir, and you.

D

Were there throughout the entire hearing? Is that correct? Yes, sir, do you recall, uh for the most part.

D

All of the testimony provided by each of the three witnesses on behalf of the applicant that day, I do.

D

Now, specifically, do you recall a discussion regarding an open house at 829 franklin at.

D

Which nobody showed up, I do um what, if anything, do you have to add regarding how that came to.

D

Be on and or about august, the 13th, mr bumgardner communicated with you our attorney that mulligan.

Z

Wished to host an open house on the 19th of august, which was a friday. I was out of town.

Z

But I conversed with my two colleagues who are the name clients in this matter and we arranged a date.

Z

And time for that to happen, which did involve all three of us, making accommodations to fit the time.

Z

That mulligan had proposed to us to have the meeting we agreed for a meeting to happen on.

Z

Friday evening august, the 19th at 7 pm, which all three of us had made arrangements to attend, we.

Z

Were then notified by email by mr baumgardner at 8 30 on thursday evening that the clients needed to.

Z

Make arrangements to cancel the meeting and that they to notify his clients, which, as he is tested.

Z

As mr lazaria has indicated, are both mr dorsey miss alcorn and myself and that they were hoping.

Z

To be able to reschedule, however, there was no confirmation that came back from the attorney of.

Z

The rescheduling date for the following weekend or the following week that miss mccall had indicated.

D

Okay and I never received- I do believe that they testified that there were flyers, that.

Z

Were handed out, however, I never received a flyer regarding the change of date or time.

Z

For the open house that they had done in order to be able to communicate it to the community.

D

Do you have any idea why the original date was canceled? I do not know.

D

um You may have touched on this already, but you also um on the first day, did you hear a.

D

Testimony regarding the specific curfew kept by mulligan at 8 29., it was a 9 pm.

Z

Mulligan or to the 829 franklin or all of their residents, but it was a 9 pm curfew.

Z

That was mentioned, and your testimony here today is you've seen. Is it vehicular foot.

D

Or both traffic coming to and from a mulligan location after 9 pm, uh both and also a bicycle.

D

The bicycle traffic that you're aware of is that a resident we.

Z

Don't know it's in the evening: it's picked up on ring cameras.

D

uh Specifically, regarding 829 franklin: are you aware of an instant uh in the.

D

Late summer of this year, where there was an unattended outdoor bonfire at that location, a.

Z

Confirmation, and for that is it was november 1st 2021. I apologize on that date of an unattended.

Z

Bonfire in the backyard which was after the occupants had taken possession of the home.

D

I mean was it contained to a fire pit? It was a large fire with flames that were alarming next.

Z

To a shed and next to adjoining properties was siding on the home. That was of concern.

D

He ever witnessed any loud behavior or arguments in front of a mulligan.

D

Location in your neighborhood, I have yes on how many occasions on numerous occasions.

D

um Are they loud enough for you to hear the substance of the argument they are? Is it your.

D

Understanding are the arguments between residents or people that are totally unrelated or both.

Z

Involving right slers, who are there to pick them up? I saw some also altercations that have happened.

Z

Street that have been directed towards neighbors, who have addressed the residents of the home.

D

Are you aware of any other members of your neighborhood community who have expressed.

D

If or how mulligan's presence has diminished their peaceful enjoyment of your neighborhood.

D

Aside from the amount of people who are in the room, we do have several residents who have put.

Z

Their homes on the market in order to remove themselves from the neighborhood that they had.

Z

Bought into because the peaceful enjoyment has now diminished as a result of these sober living.

Z

Homes being in our neighborhood, mr chairman, I would object to the question and the answer I.

C

Understand this is an administrative proceeding and hearsay is permitted, but there's a level of.

C

Hearsay and if my understanding of miss townsley's testimony is correct, she's speaking to generally.

C

Other individuals in the neighborhood that may or may not have moved out of the neighborhood.

C

For various reasons, that's a that's a bit of. I understand your concern and I.

A

Think you can address that when you ask her questions over testimony. Thank you, sir. Okay.

D

So to expound on that point, a little bit we'll see how many objections we get through.

D

um Are you aware of how many have any residences within your neighborhood.

D

Been listed for or sold within the past 60 days, yes, do you know how many there are four.

D

Come on mr floyd.

D

D

I want to ask you about the lot for 8 29 franklin specifically, you testified that you were not.

D

You've never been in the home, but you've highlighted it on.

D

Opposition one as number 107 is that right, that's correct.

D

Is it fair to say in your understanding that lot is the same size as just about every other lot in your neighborhood? That is correct.

D

I don't have anything further.

A

Mr baumgartner, thank you, mr chairman,.

C

Miss townsend good morning just a couple follow-up questions for you based upon mr.

C

Zaryaga's questions in your testimony. You had said that you had noticed out of state tags.

C

uh In the neighborhood after mulligan purchased their property, and that was a warning. What kind.

C

Of warning would that be objection that wasn't her testimony. She said alarming.

A

Could you turn your mic on? Is it? Is it on okay.

C

Then alarming what might be alarming about out-of-state tags um most the time within living.

Z

If you're a resident within the community, you change your tags to your permanent living address.

Z

Within a couple of days or weeks with moving into the residence and with some of the residents that.

Z

They have, they do not have. They still have their out-of-state tags versus permanent residency tags.

C

You'd also testified that, with regard to vehicular traffic, that there was.

C

A van that mulligan owned or operated and that you.

C

Had seen the carroll mobility services in your neighborhood correct, that's correct.

C

The van being specific, but the carroll mobility services operates throughout the.

C

County correct that is correct, so it could serve other homes as well. That is correct.

C

Is the fairfield community under any uh hoa or community association? It is not.

C

Are there any rules in the county that prevent gatherings outdoors in the fairfield community? No.

C

So other properties could also have outdoor gatherings. That's correct,.

C

Are there any rules that you're aware of that would prohibit five trash cans outside? No? That's.

Z

Up to the trash company, but most like I said my agreement with my trash company, which services.

Z

Them on the same pickup days has told me that I'm allowed two trash cans and one recycling can.

C

With regard to the, um I don't know, if we call it a drug bust or a drug arrest, you had refer to.

C

It as a drug bust, you had testified that, um at least to your knowledge that that incident had.

C

Either started or um was somehow centered around um another sober living home correct. That is.

O

Correct: okay! Okay! So that to your knowledge, that incident did not have to deal with 829 franklin.

C

Avenue that incident does not have to do with 829 franklin avenue. However, there is another incident.

Z

Involving an arrest that doesn't bob a mulligan home in the neighborhood that I can test to if.

Z

You would like, and you had testified, that there are emperor this exhibit. um There are four either.

C

3.1 or you know, other residential treatment centers in this community correct, that's correct.

C

If you know how many homes or lots are in this community 134.

C

So four out of that 134 correct, that is correct.

C

You'd also testified with regard to seeing increased pedestrian traffic, and you also stated.

C

That this was between mulligan locations, correct, that's, correct the four residential treatment.

C

Sober living homes within this community that two are on the same street, correct franklin, avenue.

C

That's correct and then two are on a different street. Correct, that's correct! Can you explain.

C

To the board, how you would be able to discern if vehicles or pedestrians or bicycles were traveling.

C

Between different locations on different streets, as I mentioned, I am a dog owner and I walk my.

Z

Dog several times a day in the evenings, they do move between homes, I'm assuming after meetings.

Z

Or or whatnot so I have witnessed that because I have been either following them or observed.

Z

Traffic behind me or approached them seeing them from which direction they're coming from.

Z

We also have cameras. um I personally have cameras on my home, as do many of my neighbors.

Z

Who could attest to that? Should they choose to make a comment along those lines as well.

C

You'd also testify that you had witnessed loud arguments in front.

C

Of a mulligan location is that correct is that is correct, which property 744 david.

C

And that's not the property that we're here for today, correct that is not.

C

You also stated that you had seen this occur numerous times. That is correct. Do you have.

C

Dates and times when those occurred, um I can specifically testify to an arrest that happened at.

Z

744 david avenue on july, the 28th at around 10 30 pm involving one of their residents, who was taken.

Z

Into custody by the sheriff's department, and also um comments that were made regarding items that.

Z

Were in a pickup truck, which was then quickly removed from the premises by individuals who I.

Z

Couldn't identify standing across the street to watch but did attest and to witness the.

Z

Conversation which the carroll county sheriff's office is made aware of and and then regarding.

Z

Another specific incident- I don't have the exact date, but it was in the morning while walking the.

Z

Dog around seven a.m. um Individual did not want to get into their vehicle. uh I don't know who.

Z

It was but a resident of 744 did not want to get into the vehicle of um whomever it was, and.

Z

Was making a ruckus and using profanity allowed rate this summer? I would probably assume that was.

Z

um I'm guessing in in august um shortly before the last hearing interior knowledge.

C

Is 744 david avenue, a level 3.1 service location? They have testified that at a 3.1 level facility.

C

And lastly, you had stated that at least to your knowledge, there were four homes in the fairfield.

C

Community that had been either listed for sale or sold in the last 60 days is that correct that.

O

Is correct, so that's four homes of the um and you can correct me from wrong- was 134.. That is correct.

C

Those are all the questions I have at this time.

A

Okay, does anyone in the audience have any questions of ms townsley's testimony.

A

Questions over testimony.

K

Good morning miss townsley rick, dorsey 716, david avenue, real estate.

K

um Out of the homes that are for sale in the neighborhood, um how many are neighbors of mulligan.

K

Homes, either touching the property or across the street that are for sale that have just gone on.

K

The market in the last 30 days, um 215 rose avenue, is two doors down from 829 franklin avenue, 7 45.

Z

David avenue is directly across the street from 744 david avenue, which is a mulligan home and 740.

Z

David avenue is directly next door to um 744 david avenue, which is a mulligan recovery, home or sober.

Z

Living home, okay before you go further further questions, one of your clients, mr dorsey. Yes,.

AA

I can ask the same questions.

Q

All right, it would probably be more proper appropriate for you for an outburst like that.

A

It would probably be more proper if mr dorsey did not ask questions directly of the witness.

D

But I think that's all I'll say: okay, thank you, yes go to the microphone and please identify yourself.

AB

Hi, my name is helen mccall and I'm with mulligan recovery. Centers and I live at 754 mulligan lane.

AB

Westminster maryland mr bale before she asks a question. This is along the lines of what just.

D

Occurred, it is yeah, I'm sorry miss mccall. Oh I'm sorry because you're represented by legal.

A

Counsel it would, I thought it was opposite. We were allowed. If you have a question.

A

You could sorry I misunderstood. Okay, do your attorney.

A

Yeah but he did, but we cut him off. Okay,.

A

Anyone else in the audience have any questions of um miss townsley's. Testimony.

A

He's kevin rebecca kepner 824, william avenue, uh miss townsley. Have you spoken.

I

With any of the families who have listed their homes for sale, I have.

I

Have they identified why they have put their homes up for sale? Some have directly. Yes,.

I

Can you explain what they had given to you? I understand that this is hearsay, but I wondered.

I

If you could elaborate on that, please, and I would object, mr chairman- it is um unless they're here.

A

To testify, it is hearsay, so you you know, you really can't answer that question. That's fine!.

A

Anyone help else have any questions.

A

A

Gardener a second to look over what was just handed him.

C

uh Not this time, sir board members, any questions.

A

Very good, thank you for your testimony. Thank you, mr sariaga. Would you like to call another witness.

D

Okay, uh can you two switch seats? Yes, I like to call cecilia alcorn.

AC

And I did not swear him. Okay, thanks for your honesty, uh do you swear affirm under penalties of.

A

Perjury that the testimony you're about to give is the truth. The whole truth is nothing but the truth.

AC

I do very good. Thank you name address occupation is spell for the record of your last name.

AC

Cecilia alcorn, that's a-l-c-o-r-n, address, 218 rose, avenue, occupation, retired forensic.

AC

Analyst and I'm a current business owner in downtown westminster, okay, uh ms alcorn, can.

D

You provide some context for the board uh where your residence is compared to 829 franklin avenue.

D

Sure I am two doors down from 829 franklin: okay, are you on the same side of the street.

AC

I'm adjacent okay thanks! Yes, um all right! So, generally speaking,.

D

When did you become aware of mulligan's presence within the fairfield neighborhood.

AC

I believe when I, when I first started, seeing the van more than anything.

D

Okay, do you recall approximately when that was that was probably nine months ago.

D

And let me direct your attention specifically to uh when did you become aware of mulligan's.

D

Occupation of the property at 829 franklin! Well, if I could go back a little further.

AC

I became concerned when the house was being rehabbed okay and what did what concerned you.

AC

I knew the previous owners and I've been in the home.

AC

And just given a little background information and when I heard that the home was purchased.

AC

And bought for cash- and I said I thought to myself: are they flipping this house? Well, they.

AC

Couldn't probably because there was a pool in the backyard? Normally, you don't flip a house and why.

AC

Not flip it, but they didn't think they would be renting it. I should say I should correct that and.

AC

um So I was concerned about who was moving into the home, so I always walk my dogs and I noticed.

AC

Who was rehabbing it and one day toward the end, I had asked the gentleman who was rehabbing: hey.

AC

Are you guys flipping the house? Are you gonna live here and he told me they were going to live there.

AC

But then it was very quiet for a while and then next thing you know I started noticing the van.

AC

Going from house to house- and I thought it looked like a party van to me to be honest- and I thought.

AC

What the heck's going on, but then I noticed it frequently going through the neighborhood.

AC

um So that was probably like- I said about nine months ago that I noticed that.

AC

um Let me um direct your uh testimony a little bit farther, so you had been in the home prior.

D

To its purchase by who, you now know to be be elite, uh the ownership entity correct.

D

How many bedrooms did you observe in the house when you were there.

AC

Three bedrooms upstairs and they had one child downstairs in a room.

D

um Is there anything that you're able to testify to specifically about your observations in how.

D

The house was rehabbed or remodeled. Do you know what was done? I know that they appeared.

AC

To be working on the garage first, because I have a direct sight line from my house.

AC

And they spent a lot of time in the garage which has now been turned to into a bedroom as well.

AC

Downstairs, like I said they had one child down there and my friends who lived in the.

AC

Home sold because their in-laws needed to move into the home, but they didn't have room for their in-laws. In addition to having three children plus the two adults.

D

Okay, um have you noted any increase in the amount of traffic, be it vehicular, pedestrian or.

D

Bicycle since mulligan has started occupying 829 franklin, I've seen a ton of vehicular traffic foot.

AC

Traffic one occasion in particular, I have dogs that are up in our windows and constantly notice.

AC

Anything or anybody that walks past our house and they bark a lot. So they continue to bark, and I.

AC

Thought someone must be doing something out front daylight hours and I noticed a young well probably.

AC

A guy around 30, I'm guessing and a woman walking together coming from the direction of 829 franklin.

AC

And he had dreadlocks. I remember that, but what I thought was really odd. Is they stopped in my yard.

AC

She was in the road, but he was halfway up into my property line and my dogs were going crazy and I.

AC

Looked at the guy and I thought okay, I didn't really recognize him saw where they were coming.

AC

From and then he was looking in my house in broad daylight, so I just backed away from the window and.

AC

Continued to observe, and then he walked back to the young woman, and then they went back toward.

AC

Again, they were walking this way and they went back to war at the location of 829.

AC

Franklin they've got down about one house kitty corner from my house, stopped lit up something.

AC

And then he passed it to her and then they turned back around after smoking, whatever they were.

AC

Smoking went came back the same direction again and he immediately came halfway up into my yard.

AC

Once again, the dogs are going ballistic again and then they made a right hand turn on to william.

AC

Which my house is on the corner of rose and william? They walked down approximately two houses.

AC

And went across the street stopped in front of another neighbor's house and the girl stopped.

AC

At the mailbox facing the mailbox and then just started kicking something on the ground.

AC

Then they turned back from the direction they turned around came back up toward the corner of.

AC

Rose and william and made a right onto rose to the original direction. They were walking.

AC

Which would have led to david avenue and they went in that direction, so I thought it was very.

AC

Odd behavior, they seemed out of sorts, didn't go out and say anything or approach them. Of course,.

AC

But it was alarming: most people don't come up into your resident or in your property.

AC

Line like that, most people stay on the street. We don't have sidewalks, but it was very odd. Behavior.

D

Bigger picture question not so uh specific incident driven the amount of foot traffic.

D

To and from 829 franklin, how does it compare to the remainder of your street.

D

Say it again, please sure the amount of foot traffic to and from 829 franklin is it more.

D

Or less or the same as most of the houses on your street. Oh it's exponentially more.

AC

And at what times a day, all hours, what's the latest you've personally observed.

AC

Foot traffic to and from the whole area as late as 10 o'clock at night, where people are walking.

AC

On the streets again, we don't have sidewalks.

D

um Have you ever personally observed any issues or complications with parking at 829 franklin.

AC

There have been several occasions where they appear to have parties um multiple cars, I've seen.

AC

Probably up to eight cars, even when the driveway has open spots, they tend to park on the street and.

AC

And they just got that driver repair, the previous owners, so they have a nice big parking pad.

D

um Has the presence of the existing use at 829 franklin affected your ability to peacefully enjoy.

D

Your home, yes, in what way fear of what is going on, especially after the big drug bust that happened.

AC

And having unknown people walking on the streets at night, I walk my dogs a lot too. I have two.

AC

Children, um but fear is one of the largest things not knowing constant different faces.

D

um Anything regarded to noise, trash production, vibrations. Anything like.

D

That that occurs, that you've experienced inside your home.

AC

Traffic, of course, has I mean I mean trash has increased for those homes.

AC

Noises we just got new windows. It was pretty loud before that, so I don't have anything further.

A

Mr baumgardner, yes searched a couple questions for ms alcorn.

C

um Good morning ma'am, you had testified that you had first noticed the presence of mulligan.

C

Because of the van and you had said that was about nine months ago, correct, correct, okay,.

C

Would it surprised you to learn that that van wasn't purchased until april of 2022.

AC

B, elite van 2 was there for rehab. They have two vans that are black.

C

He also testified that there was an increase in traffic um when mulligan moved into the.

C

Property is that correct, correct and including in that traffic, was an increase in foot traffic.

C

Is that correct, correct is increase in foot traffic in the community, a bad thing.

AC

When you're unsure of what's going on, it can be a.

AC

Bad thing and when they're walking onto your property.

C

With regard to the incident that you described with the the man and.

C

The woman who were on your yard, uh just the man, the woman, wasn't okay.

C

um Did you personally see those individuals come from either 829 franklin or another.

C

Mulligan property. Now, as I stated, I noticed them coming from the direction of 829.

AC

Came up to my property stopped turned around went back toward what I believed was 8 29. Then.

AC

Came back, went down the street one house, one and a half. Two houses came back up and then proceeded.

AC

West, on rose toward david avenue, that's all the information I have so they could have been.

C

Neighbors that lived in the community elsewhere, I've never seen those neighbors before and I've.

AC

Met all of our neighbors since so they were not neighbors that own houses in our neighborhood.

C

In miss alcorn, uh is it safe to say that you are opposed to this application today.

AC

I am a po, I'm opposed to the increase in beds, correct.

C

If, instead of the alcohol and substance use disorder, um treatment model that we've been.

C

Talking about here, if this assisted living facility were to be serving elderly residents,.

C

Would you also be a post objection how's that relevant? It goes to the source of our opposition.

D

I I think I think the question is designed to open a sense of.

D

Argument that the general opposition to this is discriminatory in nature, because.

D

Of the use I think, you'll hear in closing it is purely academic.

D

So I don't think a hypothetical as to what else this property could be used for is appropriate.

C

I'll withdraw the question. Thank you. There's all the questions I have for this witness.

C

Thank you, mr chairman. Okay, does anyone in the audience have questions of ms alcorn's testimony.

A

Board members, thank you for your testimony. Thank you zariago. Would you like to call another witness.

A

uh It depends on the answer to this next question. um I do have an exhibit that I was hoping would.

D

Have made it into the file, and perhaps mr dixon can tell me it has, and then this is.

D

um Not necessary, but I have a copy of a letter. Written august, 22nd 2022 by delegate april, rose.

D

That's addressed specifically to the bza. Do we that's on the file that is in the file? Okay, then,.

D

uh You hang on another maple rose and a letter from uh senator reedy. Yes, okay, they're in the file.

D

Mr bale, at this point I don't have any further witnesses.

D

I expect there's going to be a number from the community, but I don't have any further.

A

Okay, very good. Thank you now the moment you all have been waiting for.

A

So you can go to the microphone. Please name address occupation and spell for the record.

A

Of your last name- and you can give your testimony, it doesn't have to be in the form of a question.

A

Mr billingsley, thank you. James billingsley, real estate broker insurance agent, 329 denton drive.

G

Westminster maryland, you know I've heard a lot of testimony about the usage here and it's clear that.

G

This is only about giving two more beds, and uh you know they asked me to speak about real estate.

G

Values, it's kind of a no-brainer to know that this would have either a perceived and or a real.

G

Negative impact on any neighborhood. So therefore, in the initial section, when there's still.

G

Properties that are available and still investors that are looking to do this kind of thing in these.

G

Neighborhoods, it could have an impact of raising the values and then, as more of those go in the.

G

Neighborhood, which is in some ways a form of either unintentional or intentional blockbusting.

G

That there could be a big supply of people going to sell and then in that fact it would.

G

Have a drop eventually in real estate values. You know, when I heard mark depot, make his testimony.

G

I thought well, this is the end. I believe that the board does not have a choice to approve this.

G

Because I think that the water resource has been put out and they're not going to approve.

G

That water resource he already testified to that. So I don't see how the hearing panel.

G

Can then approve something that doesn't have the water resources? I wonder in the past when these.

G

Things were renovated and it went from what may have been four bedrooms. Three up, one down to six.

G

Bedrooms, two more down that they didn't have an issue with water resources when they did the.

G

Rehab is that slipping through the cracks of the government? So if that's not enough to give the.

G

Ruling that says, we cannot approve this think in terms of how quickly this started to happen and.

G

How quickly a neighborhood got inundated with a number of these kinds of units, and you know I.

G

Saw jurisdictions, they have a density issue, no more than 1 per square mile or something like.

G

That would protect any individual neighborhood of being inundated with. You know more than one.

G

Of these types of facilities, so in that, in that case I would encourage you to to deny this request.

G

On those two reasons and let the county government, you know, I'm part of the uh government affairs of.

G

The local association of realtors, so I've gone to them, and I've said to my fellow: have you realized.

G

This is happening it's at like lightning speed. I'm hearing things like well, you know now medicaid is.

G

Paying or maybe the investors just found out that medicaid was paying so they're going to.

G

End up being able to get a higher than market value, rent for a property that they purchase.

G

The average family could not pay that that has a negative impact, then on the community and housing.

G

So from that perspective um you know, I think we need to go forward as a group here and uh the.

G

New commissioners are just coming in, so I've not contacted most of them are going out, but we need.

G

To go to our elected officials and say you need to do as quickly as possible get some ordinance.

G

In places to protect these communities that feel like or realize that this is a negative impact.

A

Okay, does any mr baumgartner just one quick question uh to clarify mr billingsley's.

C

Testimony, uh sir, did I hear you correctly that you said that the approval of this use.

C

At least in the short term could increase property values yeah because there's other investors.

G

Finding out where the money and trail is coming from, which is always seems to be the government.

G

Of one description or another and they've found that money trail and they know I don't. I didn't.

G

Do the research to find out how much per bed they get, how much above the current market value for.

G

Renting a property would be so I don't have those specific answers. It's obvious, when they're buying.

G

These kinds of places that it's profitable, I don't you know I have experience with. I don't.

G

Think you can go very far with any family and not see someone who has suffered from the opioid.

G

Crisis, that's out there. All families are involved in that I know we need a need for those. We have.

G

A need for those kind of things, but you know you get to the high-end houses. The people make a lot.

G

Of money in these kinds of investments, financially, it can't work in their neighborhood, so they become.

G

Insulated from it, they come out and put them in other middle-class neighborhoods and I think.

G

That's a negative impact and you know, but we are speaking to this two more bet: everybody's, clear.

G

But a lot of the testimony has gone beyond that, so the water allocation is not there. I don't know.

G

How any zoning board could approve two more beds when the city of westminster official told me the.

G

Water allocation is not there and it's unknown how long it'll be until the allocation will be. There.

A

Any other questions of him wait a minute, mr billingsley, we're not done with you and and.

A

While he's, while he's going back to the microphone, I want to make it perfectly clear because things.

A

Have gotten out of hand in other hearings when you go to the microphone to give your testimony, you.

A

Get one shot of that microphone so make sure that you, your testimony, is that I'm not going to give.

A

You the second chance. Okay, I got a lot of stuff, I could say, but it all speaks to the overall picture.

G

Of the impact of one of these or multiple places and neighborhoods, I know we have a need for them.

G

I don't know where to say for them to go, but I know no one's going to be happy in residential.

A

Okay, stay there. Anyone anyone in the audience have any questions of mr billingsley's. Testimony.

A

Board members, any questions of mr billingsley's testimony.

A

Okay, now you can go back to your city. Thank you, okay. Anyone else want to give testimony.

A

Okay, go ahead, go ahead and just form a line at the microphone.

A

So that we can expedite the process a little careful on the steps everybody.

S

Joni lane beaned 716, william avenue, retired teacher former real estate agent.

S

I'd like to uh quote from the carroll county code of ordinances,.

S

Chapter 158 zoning regulations, section 158.002.

S

It stipulates that a variance is a quote relaxation by the board.

S

Of zoning appeals of the terms of this chapter, I'm sorry, I just closed it. Okay,.

S

Of the terms of this chapter, except we're specifically prohibited in accordance with.

S

Sections 158.130 and 158.133, where such a variance will not be contrary to the public interest.

S

And? Where, owing to conditions peculiar to the property and not the results of the actions.

S

Of the applicant, a literal enforcement of the chapter would result in practical difficulty or.

S

Unreasonable hardship according to this quote, I'm sorry end quote according to this quote, whatever.

S

Difficulty the applicant might experience by your rejection of this application must be.

S

Owing to conditions peculiar to the property and not the result of the actions of the applicant.

S

I have not been inside this property, but I have seen the.

S

Lot from the outside, it is about the same size as other lots on the street.

S

Geographically geologically there are no conditions peculiar to this property.

S

That would warrant a zoning variance. It would only be because mulligan has chosen.

S

To use this property to house eight or ten people in a home designed for a single family.

S

And sized for a single family, there are no conditions particular to the property.

S

That would warrant a variance. Thank you. Okay, any questions of ms bean's testimony.

B

Could you spell your last name b as in boy I n d? I know the pronunciation is a little bit unusual.

A

And I didn't give you, mr baumgartner any questions of her testimony. No sir board members. Thank you.

A

For your testimony, okay, I have oh thank you. Thank you for your honesty, okay, so raise your right hand.

A

Do you do you swear or affirm, under the penalties of perjury, that the testimony.

A

You're about to give is the truth, the whole truth of nothing but the truth. I do thank.

A

You name address occupation and spell for the record of your last name. My name is.

AD

I live on 701, william avenue and I'm a retired teacher.

AD

um This whole hearing, we keep saying, there's four group homes in our neighborhood there's.

AD

Five, I live right next door to the target house and the target house is amazing: they.

AD

Did it right when mr zapoli came in and they were building it, they came over to.

AD

The neighbors they introduced themselves, they gave us their card, told us if there was any.

AD

Problems, please feel free to talk with them once the home was built. He came over, took us through.

AD

There's four bedrooms, so they have four clients one per bedroom. The basement is for the two people.

AD

That manage the home. They go to mcdaniel college to get their masters. Mr zirpoli periodically would.

AD

Come by and see if there was any problems, I know he's retired now, but it is run extremely well.

AD

To me, that is an extremely well-run place. So not only do we have the four new ones we have five.

AD

So my question is: how many are you going to allow in one neighborhood, we already have five.

A

Mr brown partner, any questions of mrs wrightson's testimony no sir board members.

A

Thank you. Thank you.

AD

Miss joanne.

A

Did you have a question of her testimony the best? No no go ahead? I'm sorry! You have.

A

Questions of this right since testimony I I didn't, I did not see you- that's okay, now.

AE

The teachers have to project missed yeah, we meet you on the microphone it will. It won't pick up.

A

On the recording go ahead and ask your questions: she's approaching the microphone rebecca kepner.

I

824, william avenue miss, writes, and you testified that the owners of the assisted living that is.

I

Directly across the street from you came to you before they built the house. Was that an empty lot.

I

Before yes, it was an empty lot, so so they had to go through all the zoning process request water.

I

Use all of those things to your understanding. Yes, and you said that he came to you before he built.

I

The house, what did he explain why he came to you before they built the property he just wanted to.

AD

Let us know what was going in there and because we were concerned when they started, and we had.

AD

Heard it was a target house, and mr zapoli came over and talked with us and explained how it was.

AD

Run what they were going to do and then he stayed in touch okay. What what is a target house is for.

AD

People that have disabilities and they can't live on their own and they need assistance, so they need.

I

Assistance in all their activities of daily living, they need help cooking cleaning and bathing all of.

I

Those things they have pot come in all the time they have pt come in all the time and they would.

AD

Park on the street and mr zapoli came to see us and said he was going to move them off the street.

AD

My husband and I asked him not to because it slowed the traffic down on sofia, because sophia is.

I

Often used as a cut through to get to the hospital to the hospital yeah, so it slowed traffic down so.

I

Is it still the case even though mr zappoli has retired? Are you still in contact with the people.

I

Who are running that assisted living asking if there are any concerns or worries that you have.

I

The new gentleman or the new person- I don't know who person in has not contacted us, but.

I

A

Okay, miss wrightson, you can go back hmm name address, occupation is spell for the.

A

Record your last name again, my name is shelly young. My address is 645 denton drive north.

U

And I work for gold's gym eldersburg, I'm a psycho instructor, but currently adult medical leave.

U

um I'm I know that in this community we have a lot of people that walk their dogs. I mean I'm.

U

One of them- and I recently just spoke with our local veterinarian because I honestly have been.

U

Under a lot of stress and concern, we had recently seen a special on tv. I know a lot of times. People.

U

Can you know see stuff on tv and question it, but I had actually also printed it out that there was.

U

A dog that was, you know under 20 pounds and that had picked up in the article. It was actually just.

U

Oxycodone, but you know with everything that's going on, you have to kind of question. You know.

U

We have small dogs that like to eat things when they are on walks. What could happen? I mean it's a.

U

Legitimate question: you know we have, we have we've seen stuff in this community. What could happen are.

U

Veterinarians literal voice was: where do you live her next statement? Was you need to move.

U

When you're faced with stuff, like that, we already have members in our community that.

U

Are moving out because of their children, our animals are literally our children.

U

So she's told us you need to think about getting narcan. I mean this is serious for us.

U

So I mean I'm testifying that you know for people that have children they're.

U

Leaving for people that have animals that are like their children, this is serious.

U

So we all as a community need to think about these are literally things that we are thinking.

U

About on a daily situation- and yes, it is two beds, but we need to think about what is coming.

U

In and leaving as well because my husband works at night, I see random people walking up and down.

U

It's fear, as katie testified, we don't know what's going on and it's something that it.

U

Just scares me just walking my dog is my dog going to be blinded because they're ingesting.

U

Something and I can't get them to an emergency vet quick enough. Thank you for your time.

A

Mr baumgartner, any questions of her wait a minute stay at the microphone. No sir,.

A

I do it's all right. Go ahead, uh ms young, you heard testimony earlier.

D

Today about an event that occurred in the neighborhood in july, do you recall that.

U

I actually do, can you describe for the board your recollection of that um I was walking down the.

U

Road before a physical therapy appointment, because I said I am injured right now- and out of work.

U

um And the vehicle was being chased by multiple undercover vehicles because of a drug bust.

D

Did it come near you, yes, the vehicle must hit me.

D

And did you take any action to notify any further authorities about what.

D

Was going on, I was the one that placed the 9-1-1 call. Thank you. You're welcome.

A

Mr baumgart or any no sir, no stay there. Miss young.

A

um Anyone else have any questions of ms young's testimony.

A

A

Okay, thank you.

A

Mr parish, okay, uh bruce parish, 260 sophia avenue. um I just would like to make a.

X

Statement I've, a lifelong carroll, county and born raised here, lived my whole life here.

X

um I've seen carroll county change a lot. I've seen a lot of our farmlands, grow houses.

X

And I've also stayed abreast of what's going on in our housing market over the years.

X

And there's a shortage of affordable housing in our county. um I like to think that our.

X

Neighborhood fairfield is still some of the most affordable housing single-family housing in this.

X

Area we have teachers should be living here. We should have government county workers living.

X

Here this is a place where young families can come and and get their own slice of of home ownership.

X

By allowing businesses to come in and get zoning variances to expand the the capacity of our of our.

X

Homes and make it profitable for them to take residential homes off the market and turn them.

X

Into business entities is not helping our housing market at all. It's not giving our young folks a.

X

Chance to actually stay in the county that they, they grew up in or or the people who work in this.

X

County to stay in this county, unfortunately we're a vulnerable neighborhood, um just like a lot of.

X

Things I mean it's, the community was founded 60 years ago, the term homeowners, association.

X

Didn't even exist back then, and we don't have a homeowners association. uh So therefore we're.

X

Dependent upon you, the zoning board, to apply the zoning laws fairly and not turn us into.

X

An even more attractive target by allowing these entities to come in and increase the capacity of.

X

These homes and make them more profitable do what we can to keep the residential areas residential.

X

um That's all I have to say thank you stay right there, any mr baumgardner, no sir.

A

Mr lozoriaga, no thank you. Anyone in the audience have any questions of mr parish's testimony.

A

A

A

Name address occupation. Oh I have I was. I didn't stand when you started. I was here, but I didn't.

AF

Stand it was free the first time, but the second time I I bought my wallet. Please raise your right.

A

Hand right hand all right: do you swear or firm under penalties of perjury, that the testimony.

A

You're about to give is the truth. The whole truth is nothing but the truth. I do yeah okay name.

A

Address occupation is spelled for the record. Your last name, uh bob andrews, um 842, franklin avenue.

AF

um Retired school administrator, baltimore county public schools, 40 and a half years.

AF

um And a-n-d-r-e-w-s I had to get that in sorry. um My thoughts are that.

AF

It isn't just, I know there was a chant and I know we talk about two extra beds.

AF

The key here is that it isn't just two extra beds, it would mean a decision like this would say to.

AF

The 134 homes in fairfield that have been around for 50 60 years, always single family, residential.

AF

Designed that way and people purchased a home, the single most important investment, any of us.

AF

Probably ever make on the average, and we count on that now- I'm the newest member to the community.

AF

Except for the target house, because I'm at age, 42- and that was a vacant lot and that was in.

AF

97 when I downsized and came into fairfield, that's the newest house. So I guess the point.

AF

I'm making is that it isn't two extra beds, it's lowering the standards of a beautiful.

AF

50 60 year old, single-family community and saying we can now have assisted living.

AF

uh Being brought in by a profit-making group doing a wonderful and valuable job for others, but.

AF

Perhaps their business model was flawed in trying to think of trying to do too much in one area.

AF

And had they thought a little bit more about the people that they were going to serve? That would be.

AF

Surrounding them and worked a little bit different excuse me differently. They would have maybe moved.

AF

Or transferred, or maybe thought differently about this business model that that has been.

AF

Created now in our community, so in my thought we don't want the fairfield community to be lowered.

AF

Even further by a variance and we're asking the board to consider that it isn't just two beds.

AF

Two extra beds: it's the standards of the whole community and assisted living concept. Thank you.

AF

Mr baumgartner no question, sir.

C

No thank you. Anyone from the audience have any questions of his testimony.

A

Board members, thank you, mr andrews. Okay, I affirm the testimony I am about to give is the truth.

AG

The whole truth and nothing but the truth, did I get that close enough? No, uh do you swear? Do you.

A

Swear or affirm under the penalties of perjury, that the testimony you were about to give is.

A

The truth, the whole truth is nothing but the truth. I do and all three of you took the oath.

A

At the same time, very good, thank you. um So something is name occupations, 701, franklin.

AG

Avenue assistant to the director at a private school and the last name is m-o-r-t-e-n-s-e-n.

A

Okay, thank you. uh Something was not brought up today. That was addressed.

AG

And responded to in the first hearing, but I would like to revisit that for.

AG

Just a moment uh there was a comment made about someone.

AG

um On a bicycle, delivering a package to the house at 8, 29 up the street from me, and there were.

AG

Also comments made, I believe mr parish uh asked questions at the first hearing about incidents.

AG

Happening around that property as well, to which mr mccall stated that there are cameras on the.

AG

Property, but when asked well, did you see that what happened mr mccall stated instead? Well, no there's.

AG

Nobody actually monitoring them. My concern is if there are cameras but nobody's actually paying.

AG

Attention to what is happening in the homes, how do we know hindsight is 2020, but finding out about.

AG

Incidents after the fact is not helpful, and also just for the record. I am not against like some.

AG

Other people have stated people in recovery. I have 31 years of sobriety myself sobriety date december.

AG

3Rd 1990, so I do have concerns, however, in the way that these particular homes are being managed.

AG

Would anyone like to respond? Am I allowed to ask okay? Thank you, mr baumgartner.

C

No questions uh I can address the comment during my closing no questions.

A

Anyone have any questions of her testimony.

A

Board members, thank you. Okay,.

AA

And townsley t-o-w-n-s-l-e-y.

AA

736 david avenue, I live two houses from one of the mulligan homes.

AA

I live six houses from another sober living home. I've lived in my house for 48 years in.

AA

The last three months we have increased security at our house. We've increased lighting in our house.

AA

And we feel nervous about living in our house. My neighbors that have young children are moving.

AA

I don't know if I can ask these questions, but who else has increased lighting.

AA

Who else has increased security? Who else is considered moving.

AA

That's what I have to say thank you. Women just stay right. There.

A

Mr baumgartner, no sir, no questions. No. Thank you. Any questions for testimony.

A

Board members, thank you, hello. I'm yvonne, zaminski z-e-m-I-n-s-k-I. I live at 732 david avenue. Next.

V

Door to the townsleys and wait a minute first letter is that a d or a z, z, is in zebra. Okay,.

V

And it's y-v-o-n-n-e for my first name: it's not carroll county um and I am a retired banker as.

V

I noted before I just would like to go on the record to state that um we've lived in our home.

V

You've lived in our home.

V

Sorry for 35 years we've grown our family. I have one son, one granddaughter.

V

I never ever thought that the county would allow.

V

These sober homes into our community. I do not begrudge their care, I do begrudge there.

V

Are so many in such a concentrated area? I am against the increase of from eight.

V

Beds to ten which they cannot even fill, even though they say they have more, but they cannot.

V

Even fill them, I'm concerned about the level of experience among everybody that runs these homes.

V

You know I'm a banker of 41 years. I have a lot of banking experience. I would never go into.

V

A home that requires so much concentration and health care with one year of experience or two.

V

Years of experience, I'm just very concerned about this, and I would appreciate the board.

V

To consider all of our requests to not approve this variance of increasing from eight beds to ten.

V

The water situation is a concern, as well has not even been approved.

V

And I think that's all I want to say thank you.

A

Mr baumgartner, no question, sir. No. Thank you, mr bell. Anyone in the audience.

A

Board members very good, thank you thanks.

A

Anyone else want to testify.

A

Okay, seeing no one presentation of testimony and evidence is now closed and some nations are in.

A

Order the applicant is first and then mr lazariaga you'll have the opportunity to go. Second and mr.

A

Baumgardner, you will have the uh opportunity to rebut so with that, mr baumgardner. Thank you.

C

Mr chairman and members of the board, I will be as brief as possible. I know it's been a long morning.

C

As this board knows, a conditional use in carroll county is part of a comprehensive zoning plan that.

C

Shares the presumption that is in the interest of the general welfare and therefore valid.

C

So we are here on that joint request for the conditional use of the assisted living.

C

Facility, along with the associated variances I'll start with the conditional use and then.

C

I'll move on to the variances a conditional use as this board knows that the the appropriate.

C

Standard to be used in determining whether the requested conditional use.

C

Is will this use have an adverse effect and therefore should be denied if there's facts.

C

And circumstances in the record to show that this particular use at this particular location.

C

Would have adverse effects above and beyond those inherently associated with such a use.

C

um It is the general zoning and land use process that, in the conditional use, is a presumptively.

C

Valid use and this board can only deny that use if there are inherent impacts that are above and.

C

Beyond what would normally be associated with, in this case, an assisted living facility, I offer to.

C

You that that those facts and circumstances and evidence has not been shown here today, if anything.

C

I think what we have shown through witnesses, including the witnesses of community members,.

C

And opposition, as well as the community at large, is that the regular goings-on of any residential.

C

Property, including an assisted living facility, is what occurs now and what will occur in the future.

C

Things like backyard parties, things like folks walking in a neighborhood. These are things.

C

That are associated with any type of assisted living facility or any type of residential use.

C

I think what's important to note here is that.

C

We're not proposing to build anything, we're not taking a vacant lot and building a large building.

C

We're not increasing capacity in that way. We have a facility here that is fully licensed.

C

Fully permitted allowed to operate as it stands right now that currently has 10 heads and 10 beds.

C

And that's what we're asking here today is to remain 10 heads in 10 beds,.

C

um Federal and state law perhaps prohibits discrimination in housing based upon recognized.

C

Disorders, including substance use disorder. I asked the question of miss alcorn. I believe with.

C

Regard to if there will be opposition to this case, if, instead of the particular population.

C

That mulligan serves, if that population or say seniors with disabilities or disabled veterans,.

C

uh My colleague certainly appropriated appropriately objected and.

C

um I understand the chairman sustaining that objection. What I'd like to bring to your.

C

Attention, however, is the use of the word fear, and that has come up from multiple witnesses.

C

um Both from the community and sitting here at the hearing table with regard to fear and.

C

I would offer to you that there is no fear from seniors with disabilities. There's no.

C

Fear with veterans who are disabled that that fear comes from some other place. My question.

C

Was meant to address that particular issue and that certainly the elephant in the room here.

C

Residential treatment depends on the residential component of care. That's the whole point of.

C

Residential treatment, it's the sense of community and that's exactly what we've.

C

Heard from helen and brian mccall, it's what we've heard from our witnesses, including mr.

C

Stout and miss marcus that it's the community's sense of treatment. That's what gets things done.

C

The folks, like mulligan, don't bring problems into the community. They solve those problems.

C

um I think it's also important to note that mulligan is just getting started. They've been.

C

In this property for a year they're starting to build up referral sources, there were a number of.

C

Questions that were asked and answered with regard to our carroll county residents being served in.

C

This facility now are they planned to be served in this community and the answer you heard from.

C

The mccalls was yes absolutely, but they need time to get started. They need time to build up those.

C

Referral sources so that carroll county residents can get more service in mulligan properties.

C

There was some testimony with regard to bad activity happening within this community.

C

There was a drug bust or at least a police chase. There were other incidents that occurred.

C

um At least as far as what I heard here today and on august 31st, not a single witness could.

C

Attribute one of those incidents to this property, not one. uh There were no direct um observations.

C

From witnesses that saw, you know nefarious things going on at this property uh or, frankly, any other.

C

Mulligan property in this community um so again we're left to wonder what is the opposition really.

C

About here, is it about the assisted living aspect of this, or is it about the particular.

C

People who are residents even for a temporary period of time in this particular property.

C

The conditional use standard, I think, is met here. We went through some of those standards that the.

C

Board is to consider last hearing, I'm I'm on the first day of hearing. I would also note that we.

C

Don't need expert witnesses to provide testimony with regard to the conditional use standards for.

C

That matter, we don't need expert witnesses to provide testimony with regard to the variance.

C

Standards either um these folks they work in the community. They are on site their observations of.

C

Traffic are just as valid as the testimony we've here today. We've heard today from community.

C

Members, um if we will be if we were to be required to prevent, to provide zoning experts or land use.

C

Experts, um any community that would appear in opposition to any development would be put at a.

C

Disadvantage because they typically don't have those folks and we should not be held to that.

C

Higher standard either, I think the testimony we have offered meets the conditional use standards.

C

Because there's no adverse impact here there is none. There is no adverse impact. Mr billingsley.

C

Even stated that property values may increase because of this approval, I understand that.

C

His follow-up testimony was that there might be a downturn given the markets, but that was news to me.

C

Turning over to the variance analysis, this is admittedly more difficult, as variances are more.

C

Difficult to achieve what mr lizariaga had referenced was a case cromwell v ward in his.

C

Opening on august 31st, which I'm sure he will address during his closing statement as well.

C

It's still good law in maryland, but I think it can be distinguished from this case that particular.

C

Case was a court of special appeals case from 1995, which amazingly was nearly 30 years ago, and that.

C

Dealt with the baltimore county zoning ordinance, essentially, a gentleman built an accessory.

C

Building in the back of his property that was too high, he didn't get any permits. He didn't pull.

C

Anything he got caught, he got. Busted went before the baltimore county zoning authority received.

C

Approval and that case went up to the court of special appeals. But again that case dealt with.

C

A building a newly built building that was above the height requirement that the baltimore county.

C

Ordinance at that time required our facts are different: we're not building a new building.

C

We're not expanding a footprint, we're not going higher, we're not doing any of those things that.

C

Would generally generally create or trigger those variance requirements. The uniqueness here.

C

Is uh occurs because of the treatment of the property under maryland state law.

C

The properties currently authorized under maryland 7603 as community housing or a.

C

Group home, that is, a state law protection for folks in this particular community who.

C

Are served by modeling and properties, but that zoning designation does not provide a cap or.

C

An upper end number of individuals that can be served in that property. I would note that.

C

Carroll county code also does not address how many folks can be in a group home under.

C

That maryland 7603 provision, what we do have in carroll county is a distinction between assisted.

C

Living facility, I think it's four to eight persons and then nine to 16 persons. I believe um so. The.

C

Unique aspects that we are that that that this property um kind of has is that there is a general.

C

Conflict between state law and carroll county code board, member snyder alluded to this with.

C

His line of questions uh of questioning to mr depot earlier with regard to is there a conflict.

C

Between you know, the the state protection that state authorization and water and sewer.

C

We have a similar circumstance here in that variance. We have to show that there's something.

C

Unique or special about this property and that um it that there's a practical difficulty or.

C

Undue hardship that these that this property would suffer if the variances were not granted.

C

um Well, the carroll county code doesn't give us any guidance as to that cap. State law.

C

Does so under comar 10.63.03.11 states that level 3.1, community housing or group.

C

Homes can operate out of what are called small halfway houses which can inhabit.

C

Four to eight residents or large halfway houses, which can inhabit 9 to 16 residents.

C

When, um as I mentioned before, the zoning table differential differentiates between assisted.

C

Living four to eight and assisted living 9 to 16.. What we have here is an inability to.

C

Conform, the state law provision protecting these properties with the carroll county code and that.

C

Triggers this requirement that triggers the conditional use that triggers the variance.

C

I had inquired of the county whether or not we could request a reasonable accommodation under.

C

um Under federal law- and it was indicated to me that the zoning board for the assisted living.

C

Facility would be the would be the appropriate path to take, and that is why we are here today.

C

To address the variance again, the variances for setbacks height, they all focus on the intensity.

C

Of use of the property, are you putting too much building too much stuff on the land or the lot.

C

That you have we're not building anything, we're, not incredible. We're not increasing capacity.

C

It is 10 heads in 10 beds that does not change that makes the treatment of this property unique.

C

um In the variance analysis, there's nothing to say that that unique nature of the property has.

C

To be physical or topographical, typically, it does typically it's gradient. It's slope, it's all those.

C

Things that we normally encounter in a variance um hearing in this particular case is different.

C

In that it's the treatment under state law and the conflict with county code that create that.

C

Unique environment that I think meets that unique threshold test to grant a variance.

C

Now we turn to practical difficulty or undue hardship.

C

It was testified that this target house, which was new information to me, was new.

C

Infill development in this community- I don't know the facts of that case, um but given the.

C

Exhibit that the protestants had submitted with regards to the attacks plot, I would say that.

C

That property most likely received variances um in order to build that particular property.

C

um In terms of undue hardship and practical difficulty, this property can't conform uh to.

C

The setbacks to lot area in its present state assisted living facilities of any size of any.

C

Variety require 40 000 square feet of lot area. I would profit you that that is almost impossible.

C

To find anywhere in this community whatsoever, so even if they were treated as an assisted living.

C

Facility for five individuals, they would still need a variance. That is a practical.

C

Difficulty and that the applicant cannot meet that standard without the variance foreign.

C

I will rest at this time uh and, as the chairman indicated, I will probably have a.

C

Brief rebuttal after mr elizarriaga gives his closing statement. Mr lazariago, at the moment.

D

um Thank you for your time and attention uh five six weeks ago and today I'm glad.

D

To see that we're putting this case in your hands before one o'clock before four o'clock.

D

Which is what I thought we were looking at today. um So for starters, let me uh revisit.

D

Where I started, I told the five of you and mr dixon at the beginning- and I mentioned today.

D

That, despite the number of emotions that are present in this case, it's my position.

D

That this is a purely academic exercise that can be taken on by the five of you without.

D

The indulgence of having to get emotional about it, because it is a black and white analysis for.

D

Everybody in this room to including the applicants- this is very personal. Luckily, this board is.

D

Removed from that in discharging your duties, I agree with mr baumgardner that the conditional.

D

Use analysis is the easier one, but the problem that the applicants have in this case is that.

D

When it is coupled with a variance that makes it necessary to achieve the conditional use, the.

D

Variance analysis comes first, you don't start with the conditional use. You start with the harder one.

D

And he did distinguish the cromwell versus ward case, which I cited to uh to the board. That.

D

Basically, stands for the proposition that it's at least a two-step analysis, where you start with, is.

D

The property unique if it's not the analysis, ends and that's the end. But if it is, you then go on to.

D

The disproportionate application of the code and does it lead to an unreasonable hardship.

D

What mr baumgardner did not mention was the second case uh that I cited to you at the opening, which.

D

Is still good law, and that is the chester haven, beach. Partnership versus board of appeals for.

D

Queen anne's county case that came within a calendar year of the cromwell versus word case.

D

And that one stands for the proposition that, if you need a variance to acquire a conditional use.

D

And you don't get the variance the favored status vaporizes into thin air. It is a departure from the.

D

Code, which is why, in a case like this, I understand that the way that mr baumgardner phrased it that.

D

His client shouldn't be tasked with the obligation of providing expert testimony to say why their.

D

Property is different. I wholeheartedly disagree. They are the ones that is asking this board to.

D

Depart from the code that's in place and for them to provide you with no evidence to suggest.

D

That this property is unique is inescapable to me. There is nothing in this record to suggest.

D

That the lot at 829 franklin is different from any other lot in the fairfield neighborhood.

D

There's nobody who's even mentioned that it could be other than mr baumgarner, which is not evidence.

D

About the application of state protection under a section of the code.

D

That doesn't apply in this case, so my suggestion to you, folks is, I know you all love your jobs here.

D

If you find that this property is unique because of chap a subtitle six of chapter 700 of the.

D

Health general article of the annotated code. This is going to be a famous board because you guys.

D

Are either going to be right or wrong and told that by a court in annapolis? My point is this:.

D

Property is properly classified under section 8 of the health general article, which does not.

D

Deal specifically with group homes, it deals with substance, use disorders, law and group homes within.

D

That the chapter that mr baumgarner cited is developmental disabilities. It is entirely separate.

D

It was codified separately, so what we are talking about here and the sections that he referenced in.

D

Komar regarding large and small halfway houses, I'm with them on that. That's in the section of.

D

The code that I am citing to so it's my position and I'm not going to go much farther into this.

D

There is not one piece of evidence that this board can rely upon adequately to say this property is.

D

Unique and we need to decide whether or not the code applies differently to it than everybody.

D

Else because it's not unique it just isn't, there is not one attribute to it. I disagree with mr.

D

Baumgardner that it doesn't have to be physical or that the application of this other section of the.

D

Law applies, but that is for you to decide, but the takeaway for this is in a variance analysis. Nobody.

D

On any one of these lots anywhere in this zone, not just this neighborhood can do what is being.

D

Asked of this board by this applicant without a variant. You know what that says: they're not being.

D

Treated differently, not only is their property not unique, they're not being treated differently than.

D

Anybody else and the real problem the applicant has is that chesterhaven beach partnership case.

D

uh Specifically says that the failure to present any evidence that says you are unique and you.

D

Qualify for a variance is fatal. In that case, the applicant was uh his testimony regarding.

D

Why he needed a variance- and this was um a size variance, not a use, variance just like.

D

We have here we're asking for reductions in all setbacks: front yard, side, yard, rear yard.

D

And uh the lot width in the case that I've cited that stands for the proposition that, if you don't.

D

Get the variance you fail as a matter of law, the testimony was effectively regarding the.

D

Uniqueness of the property, it was unique because the property owner can't do what he wants to do.

D

That's what you have here, it doesn't fit physically. You cannot do it.

D

The code applies equally to everybody else in the neighborhood, the zone and the neighbors in that.

D

Regard with the variance failing the conditional use for the increase of the beds necessarily fails.

D

That's my pitch on the variance to me. I think that is the strongest argument. I.

D

Think that is the easiest for this board to latch onto academically and objectively, say.

D

You're trying to do a good thing in the community. We appreciate your service, it just does not fit.

D

Here you can't do it, nobody can do it, I'm sorry. We cannot make an exception for you.

D

The next response that I have is suppose you're convinced that the variance standards for four.

D

Separate variances are met. You're then tasked with the conditional use analysis, schultz versus pritz.

D

Based on, what's in the record, there has been no suggestion and only opinion testimony.

D

That there are no neighborhoods anywhere else in the zone, much less in our 10 zone.

D

That have this many assisted living facilities, regardless of whether it's for mental health.

D

Whether it's for age, whether it's for addiction, whatever it is, nobody has said, there's more of.

D

These around all, you have heard, are people in opposition, saying we don't know of anywhere else.

D

In the county that has this, why is this all being heaped upon us so to me that puts you.

D

In a position of when you're evaluating under the conditional use are the adverse effects associated.

D

With this use at this location, disproportionate and above and beyond those anywhere else,.

D

How can the answer to that be anything other than yes, if you were to put one of these locations, be.

D

It eight bits: 10 bet 16, whatever you have in a neighborhood that has none of it. No vehicular.

D

Foot traffic like this: no people coming in and out at different times of the day, no increased.

D

Trash, no, you know whatever you have, how could keeping more of that on top of? What's already in.

D

Existence in this neighborhood not be worse than somewhere else. The answer is it just it just is.

D

And then to mr baumgardner's point.

D

It's only a conditional use if you meet the conditions right and that gets us to the fact that.

D

We're asking for a departure of every one of the conditions that makes us susceptible acceptable.

D

Excuse me regarding the lot with side, yard, front yard and rear yard as an assisted living facility.

D

The last point I want to make- and I don't want to get too deep in the weeds on this, but it's I.

D

Think going to help explain to this board some of the confluence between state and county law.

D

Even under state law, where this protection comes from, that mr baumgardner has talked about.

D

In the section that I agree with him, that applies in title eight of the health general article.

D

Of the annotated code of maryland, he points to komar, I point to there. They say the same things.

D

They classify a large halfway house as having at least nine, but not more than 16 individuals.

D

Okay, small halfway houses are four to eight.

D

The reason that is important in this case is, as I told you in section 8406 of the health general.

D

Article where they specifically deal with zoning, they say small halfway houses, eight or fewer.

D

Are deemed residential? You can't zone against them differently from a single family, residential home.

D

What 8406 says about large halfway houses is, they are deemed conclusively multi-family dwellings.

D

And they are permitted in locations in zones of similar density. Why does that matter here? Because.

D

Nowhere in the county's code in any residential zone, with the exception of being a part of a.

D

Planned unit development, our multi-family houses allowed nowhere. The table says that.

D

So you can't have this use whether it's classified as a large halfway house under.

D

State law, whether it's a different number under a different section of the state law.

D

Without considering the conditional use analysis and the necessary variances here do not be misled.

D

By this protection, when you reach the number of nine to ten, the protection is different. It says.

D

If you're going to have nine or more people, you need to be in a zone with similar densities, where.

D

This is allowed in our county; it is not allowed in r-10 or any other residence district unless.

D

It is a part of a planned unit development. As a result, I want to circle back to where I started.

D

um I I do find it curious that we never even heard from the property owner in this case, but I don't.

D

Think, there's anything to take away from that legally, I think it's different than we normally.

D

See there are a lot of feelings from the community and the applicants regarding the sincerity of this.

D

And the supervision and all that- and that is valid- and I appreciate the amount of time that's been.

D

Spent on this exercise, but at an academic level, I don't know how this board can make a sound finding.

D

That this property is unique in relation to anything and as a result, the variance fails.

D

And then the dominoes tumble and the conditional use analysis fails. I ask that you specifically.

D

Make a finding of fact that the property is not unique and, as a result, the variances and.

D

Ultimately, the conditional use are denied. Thank you, mr baumgardner. Very briefly, sir, thank you. A.

C

Couple points on rebuttal: I would disagree with my colleague that the variance question comes first.

C

The conditional use analysis and the variance analysis, they're separate analyzes, they're they're.

C

um Even when they're part of the same application, uh the board could certainly.

C

Find the conditional use standards are met in the variance is not met, and that would.

C

Result in the denial of the application, but they're independent tracks, essentially even.

C

Though they're on the same pathway, um second, I bring the board's attention back again to this.

C

Target house, which I did not know existed until this morning, um again being completely frank, I.

C

Don't know the particulars of that property. My colleague had mentioned that there's nothing.

C

Like what's being proposed here today within this community- and I simply don't know if that's.

C

True, especially with the knowledge that this target house exists in this community right now,.

C

Third, I would point the board's attention to the variance provision in the carroll county code.

C

Which provides the second half of it, which states, owing to conditions peculiar to the property.

C

Owing to conditions peculiar to the property, not structural conditions, not building height, not.

C

Slope, not topography but conditions peculiar to this property and not the results of the actions.

C

Of the applicant, a literal enforcement of the chapter would result in practical difficulty or.

C

Unreasonable hardship, I would offer the board that we are not simply limited to those. What.

C

I call typical standard variance issues like topography height, you know forest conservation.

C

um That are more associated with you know. Large-Scale development.

C

Fourth, as far as I know, there's no density requirement for these types of uses in carroll.

C

County there's no rule that says you can't have more than two within a quarter mile radius.

C

um The the carroll county commissioners could could certainly do that. They could.

A

Pass, can I interrupt you sure we're going to go on about a five minute break got it.

A

Sorry for interrupting you, mr boundgardner, no problem at all.

C

um I just had two final points to make very very quickly uh the one I was making.

C

um Several moments ago was that, to my knowledge, carroll county code does not provide.

C

um Does not have a density provision for uses like this other jurisdictions um in the carroll county.

C

Commissioners could certainly do this could pass a pass, a rule, change or pass a regulation that.

C

Would say you can't have more than this type of use within a course square square. Mile of that.

C

Use baltimore city: does it montgomery county, I believe, might do it. We don't have that here.

C

In carroll county, so my colleagues, this statement with regard to you know the numbers of these types.

C

Of facilities in this community and a lot of the testimony from the community members with regards.

C

To you know that density in this community simply is not currently caught modified in carroll county.

C

So I don't believe that you can consider that density question or that impact question. Quite.

C

The way that that it has been offered here today. Lastly, my colleague had made mention of the state.

C

Provisions with regard to the definition of large halfway houses um and my understanding is that.

C

Or here on, the conditional use for the assisted living facility in lieu of an appropriate county.

C

Provision to deal with this issue, and again this goes back to my conflict issue with a conflict.

C

Between state law and carroll county code that if there were a provision in carroll county code that.

C

Might you know better fit this model, we would have it and we might be before another body. We might it.

C

Might be be allowed by right, but it maintains that this use is still residential, assisted.

C

Living is residential, assisted living four to eight is permitted by right in this district.

C

um And with that I believe I will close, I would request this board's approval of.

C

Both the conditional use and the variances- and we thank you for your time and attention today.

A

Thank you, mr baumgardner, mr dixon. Yes, I I wanted to make a statement for the.

B

uh For the benefit of the board- and that is uh because of mr depot's testimony and.

B

Him bringing up the what what the city of westminster's laws and regulations.

B

uh How they impact this the water allocation issue? Mr depot, was here for the city of.

B

Westminster westminster, the city of westminster have attorneys they could have had attorneys here.

B

Like mr lazoriaga- and they could have taken a position in this case about what they, what you.

B

Know the city of westminster could have been that, if that's not, you know what mr depot did.

B

And in addition to that, in the future, if the city of westminster thinks that any you know, homeowner.

B

In there, water jurisdiction is in violation of their rules and regulations than the city.

B

Of westminster can enjoin those folks from doing whatever it is they're doing with water or sewer.

B

So the city of westminster still has remedies for people that aren't doing whatever they're supposed.

B

To be doing based on their rules, council, if you have anything to add or say about that, then help.

B

Yourself either one of you, no sir. Thank you very much. um I do just that. While I find mr depot's.

D

Thoughts to have been enlightening. I don't think that they're anything that this board.

D

Is required to consider I mean that's as mr dixon was pointing out if there is a problem.

D

With utilities or volume, there is a separate way to do that. It may have a small impact.

D

On a conditional use analysis if you get there, but that's a city resource, not the counties so.

D

I would encourage you not to let that be a turning point of anything either direction.

D

Thank you very good.

A

Okay, the hearing and record of this case is now closed in accordance with the open meetings law.

A

Opens meaning act of maryland. The board will now consider the case.

A

Board members, mr snyder, why did I know that I go vacation in the very first day? Yes,.

H

um I was going to mention very beginning, I didn't believe the water allocation issue.

H

Was something for us remote center? That's something that's outside of purview and.

H

Something that does not influence any thoughts I had whatsoever um because, again it's not mine.

H

To judge on that, that's up for the city and someday! Maybe if you can figure out.

H

The city water allocation issues- please let me know- because I dealt with them in the past.

H

I'm not very going to dwell on my thoughts about the testimony other than I appreciate.

H

Everyone taking the time it's been a long, it's been a long hearing. I always enjoy.

H

The fact that people take the opportunity to testify and participate in the process.

H

H

I do agree um with mrs the syria very clearly that and with mr bombard as well there's two trends.

H

Of thoughts, there's two that there's two areas of consideration. Obviously one is the variance which.

H

Is a which is a and there that we have to consider whether it will qualify for a variance or not or.

H

The variant should be approved, and, secondly, is obviously the conditional use two thoughts. However,.

H

The conditional use does not survive if a variance is not granted. That is just the reality of the.

H

Situation uh sure we could approve the use, but I'll prove the variance so you're right back.

H

Where you started um so in that particular area, I agree. uh Mr bunner said I am trying to understand.

H

Because, having listened to the testimony of the period of time, trying to hear testimony that.

H

Really has identified the property as unique or peculiar relative to approving the variance and.

H

During your closing, you said something that that maybe it shouldn't that this shouldn't.

H

Be subject to this typical standard variance um thought processes, um I I didn't really grasp what.

H

That really meant or considerations, I think, is the actual word you used. I didn't really grasp.

H

What those unique considerations should be, if not the typical standard variance considerations um so.

H

In this particular case, I can't get past the variance every lot in that development.

H

Is a residential lot? There's nothing unique about them. I looked at the map with it outlined you.

H

Know where all the different centers were all the different treatment centers were.

H

And it was designed as a 140 lot subdivision. Every lot in there is residential there's.

H

Nothing unique about this from a um from a size or topography, or certainly there's no testimony.

H

To to support that, so in this particular case I can't get past the variance. I can't see where a.

H

Variance would be approved and consequently, the conditional use would fail as well.

A

F

With mr snyder, you know, I certainly admire the program and recognize that there is an absolute.

F

Need in this community for the for these types of facilities, um but I didn't hear any testimony.

F

Regarding the variance so, therefore, I can't get past the variance either or the need for.

F

A variance I don't see how this property is unique relative to the rest of the homes in the community.

W

W

I properly relate to everything else in the neighborhood, and so I agree that.

W

I can't see how you can grant a variance for it. Mr simmons.

A

I need to say a month in between hearings boggles my mind and I struggle with what was said in july.

M

Here we are wherever we are october, we said october, just yes speak into them.

M

M

I agree with mr snyder and my other colleagues and I will have no difficulty voting that way.

A

Thank you. Okay. There was a lot of moving parts in this case that dates back to our previous.

A

First day of of hearings.

A

There's there's not a one of us in this room that hasn't been affected by addiction issues.

A

Within our families or our friends, it's absolutely needed, but what we have here is.

A

A situation where, under the eight beds, so protected by state law,.

A

This was first brought to my attention by a letter from my state senator and in that I pointed out.

A

That it was protected under state law that these group homes and these treatment centers were.

A

Protected under state law up to eight eight beds- and I intimated to him that I would be contacting.

A

My state senator it was crickets for a couple of days. Justin was here earlier, but anyway.

A

It's absolutely needed, but it's the placement and the and the number of beds.

A

We we heard a lot from the residents about fear um since 11 o'clock sunday evening, fear has been on.

A

My mind because it was either my cornfield or the neighbor's corn field, that I harvest where there.

A

Was a murdered body found that was dismembered? So when you talk about fear, that's real.

A

um It's going to be interesting as we harvest those fields. What we might find.

A

What I want to say is.

A

Mr lazuryaga made some very good points.

A

About the variants- and we didn't hear testimony about how this variants would be a hardship.

A

Whether it was the configuration of the lot, um uh the the setbacks were.

A

Would be any different than any other lot in this subdivision and we're talking 130 some homes.

A

So if we don't, if we can't approve the variance, then the conditional use isn't.

A

Approved, that's what it comes down to that all the other stuff that I said.

A

Means absolutely nothing but to this board. What we're looking at is the variance and.

A

The conditional use and if the variance isn't met the conditional use, we can't go forward with that.

A

um Do they still have protection under state law, absolutely up to eight beds.

A

That's a given um that that's not that's, not our decision. That's state law.

A

um So with that, uh without seeing any evidence of the variance.

A

um Of uh testimony on the variance and how it was needed, uh I I can't I can't support um the request.

A

A

I'm ready for a motion unless there's any further discussion.

F

Put your microphone in case number 6404. I move that we deny the application for conditional.

F

Use for an assisted living, 10 bed, community recovery, recovery center and multiple variances.

A

Do I have a second to the motion? We have a second. Is there any discussion on the motion.

A

Seeing none all in favor aye, all opposed no motion carries. Our oral decision will become final upon.

A

A written decision which will be issued within 30 days unless otherwise extended by this board,.

A

The board's decision may be appealed by filing a petition for judicial review.

A

With a clerk of circuit court of carroll county, in accordance with the provisions.

A

Of chapter 200 title vii of the maryland rules of procedure, the appeal must be filed within.

A

30 days of the date of the board's written decision, this hearing is adjourned. Thank you.