Carroll County, MD Carroll County Board of Zoning Appeals, 25 Apr 2023

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From YouTube: Board Of Zoning Appeals Afternoon of April 25, 2023

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https://www.carrollcountymd.gov

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I'm going to call the bza meeting back to order and before us we have case number 6447, which is a.

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Request for affirmation and potential modification of the board of zoning appeals, previous decisions.

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To confirm confirm that a residential addiction service facility is permitted under previous.

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Approvals for a nursing home now before we get started on the case, I'm assuming that everybody.

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Signed up on the clipboard on the side, I don't see the clipboard there. It's going around. Okay,.

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Very good I'd ask that everyone turn off or silence any electronic advice devices that.

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They have and please exit by the same door that you came in because at the end of the day, I don't.

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Want the security people running around trying to locate you if you went out the wrong door.

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um So with that we'll go ahead and mr dixon, could you introduce the file for us? Please.

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All right, k-6447, a request for affirmation and potential modification of the board of.

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Zoning appeals previous decisions to confirm that a residential addiction service facility.

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Is permitted under previous approvals for a nursing home the site is located at 1442.

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Buckhorn road, sykesville and property zone, a agricultural district and election district.

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14 by bay ventures, management, llc code of public local laws and ordinances, section 158.071.01 and.

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158.002, a site visit is tentatively scheduled for wednesday april 19 2023 at approximately 10 40 am.

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All right, the first thing I'll deal with is a request for a postponement.

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Of the hearing uh in a letter dated april 19, 2023.

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By a g macy nelson of law, office of g macy, nelson llc.

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That was responded to by kelly safer miller on april 20th, 2023, schaefer and schaefer llp.

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And mr bell wrote a response.

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um Rejecting a postponement denying a postponement april, 21st 2023.

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Now, in the fire we have the site minutes for the board members. There is a.

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April 14 2023 letter from kelly, safer miller to jay voigt zoning administrator purpose of.

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This letter is to confirm to confirm and document our conversations and.

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Your opinions over the past few years, related to the above reference case.

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And jay boyd affirmed uh uh what she was saying. There's an april 24 2023 letter from lifebridge.

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Health letter states on behalf of carroll hospital center or wholly home subsidiary.

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Of lifebridge health inc, I'm writing to express my strong support to request an affirmation and.

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Potential modification of the carroll county board carroll county board of appeals, previous decisions.

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To confirm that a residential addiction services facility is permitted under previous approvals.

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For a nursing home, the site is located at 1442 buckhorn road sykesville, maryland on a property.

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Zone a agricultural district and election district 14., this request is by bay ventures management, llc.

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The proposed residential treatment program will improve access to and availability of these much.

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Needed services for mail owners, I understand that the center will be operated by hygiene, detox, inc.

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To provide assam, 3 love of care with 60 beds, I am pleased that patients will have increased access.

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To these services in baltimore and carroll county maryland is suffering from a substance.

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Use disorder crisis that is devastating local communities. Marylanders deserve to have access.

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To high quality programs for the treatment of substance, abuse disorders and the availability.

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Of care in one's own community is an important factor to a successful long-term recovery.

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It is life bridges, intention to have a minority ownership share of the treatment center, reflecting.

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Our strong support for the success of the program- I believe hygiene detox inc- demonstrates the.

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Ability to develop strong clinical programs and provide excellent care to marylanders suffering.

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From substance use disorders, we do not anticipate the proposed facility to generate different or.

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More intense use characteristics than the previous traditional nursing home, operated.

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On the property, I respectfully request that the carroll county board of zoning.

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Appeals approved k-6447, signed neil m meltzer, president and ceo of lightbridge health inc.

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There's maple 3 2023 notice of public hearing for this case.

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Hearing notice was posted march 27 2023 by inspector scott robinson.

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And then there is the affirmation and potential modification of previous.

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Bza cases and confirmed permitted low intensity, residential addiction services.

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There is a march 23 2023 letter from kelly, safer miller to the board.

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Is a march 10th 2023 letter from kelly, safer miller to the board.

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There are some.

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Plans in in here from.

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Candidate porter and associates consulting engineers.

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And there is a case 3441 a a bza case for golden age, guest home inc uh october, 9th 1990.

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I would ask that to file be entered into evidence, someone moved seconded removed and seconded to.

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Enter the file into evidence, all those in favor say: aye aye altos! No, have you heard briefly.

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Abby heard briefly citizens, I request a copy, the file, and there are items that were produced to me.

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uh But two of the letters that were described by council were not produced to me. I'd like to have.

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The opportunity to reach the appropriate time and look at those letters, because we I got the file.

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Just last week from from joe vance- and there are two, for example- uh there's a letter uh from the.

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Applicant's attorney to the zoning administrator there's a letter from lifebridge to the board.

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I've seen neo mr chair, I I do have extra copies as well, so I'm happy to pass a copy of both too okay.

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Clients I'm trying to prepare for the case. We.

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Made a request for the documents and advance the hearing we received some, but not all the file.

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I would just say to that that some of the documents came as late as.

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Today or yesterday, so um the one from lifebridge is dated april 24th.

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um I'm unaware of any that came this morning, mr bale, um for what it's worth.

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And mr nelson, what was the other here's a letter where accounts for the applicant is is summarizing.

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Her understanding what the zoning administrator told her under the phone, I object to this if the.

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Wizard wants to testify, he can come, but I'm going to object to this. This letter has been.

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Part of the records, it's it's, it's it's hearsay and it goes to a central issue in this case.

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And this was dated april 14th, we're now april 25th two weeks ago, this.

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This file this letter was sent before I requested the postponement, which was denied.

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I think this is this is the point that my clients were entitled to see prior to this hearing.

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Mr chair, the date of that letter, reflects the date that that letter was sent to mr jay voigt.

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The zoning administrator the letter states that it is in the event mr void is unable to attend.

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Personally, I do believe he is in the room here with us today, um so I I anticipate him testifying.

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To all of those um statements in that letter- and he did also sign that letter as an affirmation.

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As well, so I would just point that out, but I do believe he's here and available to testify so.

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I see him in the back of the room, so is that.

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That addresses my concern of the letter, we'll we'll confront the the appropriateness of his.

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Testimony when we get to that point of the hearing, if we get there, yes, okay, very good.

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Okay, any any other legal clarifications before we get started. Yes, I have one uh macy nelson council.

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For the citizen protestants at the appropriate time, I'll submit a list of my clients to the board.

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We have a lot. I have a lot of clients here. I've told the board informally prior to lunch, break.

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That I don't intend to call each of them. I intend to call one two or three or four, but a very brief.

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But my main point, which I wish to make now is, I think this case concerns a pure legal question.

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Does the definition of a nursing home include this proposed used for the residential drug treatment.

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Program, I assert it's a legal question that that doesn't require evidence. Okay and mr nelson, I know.

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I want to interrupt you what I'm going to. Let me explain the process that we're going to use.

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um The process and and I'm I'm not calling you down, I just wanted. I want you to be familiar with.

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The process we're going to use um I'm going to allow ms miller to give her opening comments and.

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Then I'll allow you to give your opening comments and then ms miller will have the opportunity to.

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Call witnesses the witnesses after they um give their testimony. um Anyone can ask them.

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Questions of their testimony and only of their testimony, the board will get the same opportunity.

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Once she gets finished with all of her clients, then you can go ahead and um call your witnesses.

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And they'll be subjected to the same uh the same rules and then after you, after you're finished. If.

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Anyone has any uh testimony they want to give. That was not that neither you or ms miller did.

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Not call on they'll have that opportunity and then it'll be an opportunity for both of you to.

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Give summation comments and then we'll discuss the case. Okay, I I promise you, as I said earlier, this.

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Morning, you'll understand the process at the end of the day. So if there's, if you have any.

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Questions about the process as we go forward, please feel free to ask this is this: is your.

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First time before us, uh I'm gonna be bashful. Don't worry, okay, very good! Thank you so miss.

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Miller with that I'll allow you to go ahead and uh or invite you to go ahead and give your opening.

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Comments. Thank you good afternoon, mr chair and members of the board kelly schaefer miller, 73.

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East main street westminster, maryland 21157, I'm here today on behalf of the applicant in this case.

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um This is a somewhat unusual request of this board. As has been noted, we are requesting.

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Confirmation that a residential rehabilitation facility, as described here today, fits within.

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The code definition of a nursing home so just for everyone's easy reference. I have.

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Printed out a copy of the nursing home code definition and I've also provided a copy to mr.

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Nelson, I don't think this needs to be entered as an exhibit since it's the county code, but yeah.

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This property, as mr dixon, I believe, stated in his introduction of the file, has an existing bza.

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Approval and a site and an approved site plan for a 68 bed nursing home. The question here I agree.

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In part with what mr nelson was stating in in the code interpretation issue before you, but I think.

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That, in order to determine whether this meets the definition, you also have to hear testimony about.

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The characteristics of the use, because, without that, you can't really determine whether this.

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Meets the code definition um yeah, as has been you know, explained in the application. My client is a.

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Contract purchaser of this property- and so we felt it was appropriate to go through a very clear and.

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Public process having this determination heard, as you saw uh from the file, there is a letter from mr.

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Void- and I do anticipate that he will testify here today confirming that this meets the definition.

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But it was in my client's interest to have this in a public setting such that appropriate notice was.

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Provided to everyone um and and all evidence could be heard appropriately as a quick point of order. I.

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Do believe that the board's rules of procedure state that when parties are represented, that.

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Their council handles the cross-examination and the presentation of their case, so I just wanted.

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To clarify I I spoke with mr nelson, um you know he can't speak to whether there are a few people.

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Here, who are not represented by him, but to the extent that the majority of those here.

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Are represented by him, it's my understanding that he will lead the presentation of that.

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Case and he will conduct the cross-examination of of witnesses and he will call his witnesses.

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To testify as well, so I just wanted to briefly clarify that that's correct. Thank you. Thank you.

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That concludes my opening statement this morning or this afternoon.

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Nelson, thank you. You can remain seated that way, you're closer to the to the microphone.

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Good afternoon macy nelson, on behalf of the citizen, citizen, protestants, all.

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Of whom live in the community, sir, are surrounding this proposed application.

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My clients oppose uh the application. My job as their legal advocate is to present to you the.

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Legal reasons why this board should disapprove the application so I'll just go through those.

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In order, the first is: there's no mechanism in the zoning ordinance to allow this board to substitute.

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One use for another to call one use as the to meet the definition of a prior conditional use.

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That the the the the provision in the ordinance that that speaks to this issue.

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Generally is if, if there's a use, that's not specifically designed in the ordinance.

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And if the applicant thinks that this use is the same as a conditional use, that's defined.

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And listed in the ordinance you can petition for a conditional use and present the evidence that.

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We are this, can the the this conditional use and that we can satisfy the requirements on the zoning.

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Orders for the approval of a conditional use. So at the outset we say: there's no mechanism.

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The audience to authorize that contemplates this type of procedure now, assuming hypothetically the.

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Board wants to consider the question of whether this use is a nursing home. Let me outline the.

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Reasons why it's not? We know from the audience that the uh a nursing home is defined a drug.

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Rehab facility is not defined. We know from the ordinance that uh if, if there is a definition.

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That that's not present in the ordinance uh were instructed by the ordinance to go to traditional.

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Definitions of those terms, we know that much, uh but when, when we, when we analyze, whether use is.

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Permitted or not we're trained as lawyers to look at the ordinance as a whole and first we.

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Look at the definitions, then we look at the land use use table uh and what we know is we have a.

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Definition for a nursing home we have. We know that in the ag zone a nursing home is permitted.

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By conditionally use, we know, under the carroll county code that they're very specific set of.

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Requirements for a conditional use, 158.133 subpart g you've heard those probably a thousand times.

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Every time you write an opinion on a conditional use case, you go through each of those criteria.

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And you make a fun effect as to whether you were persuaded the applicant satisfied you that they.

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Can meet the requirements? That's all part of the conditional use requirement, but the point I'm.

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Trying to make is so when you look at the totality of it. We know that a nursing home is defined. We.

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Know that drug rehab facility is not defined, but we do see references in the zoning ordinance to.

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A drug rehab facility. We know, for example, that a dream that a if we go to the um uh section 158.156.

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It lists the uses that are prohibited in an industrial park.

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Section 158.156: it lists the uses that are prohibited in an industrial park in this county.

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One use that's prohibited. There is a drug rehab facility, it's in the list, a second list. That's.

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Prohibited there is a nursing home. The point I'm trying to make to the board is these two uses are.

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Identified separately in carroll, county's own zone, ignorance as being distinct uses.

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So we assert that if you look at the zoning ordinance by itself, you reach the conclusion.

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That the uses are separate and then you know we're trained as land use, lawyers study and.

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Use weather usage of the program, we look at the purposes of the zone and I was struck.

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By the lifebridge, the lifebridge letter of support there, I'm paraphrasing, I just heard.

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It for the first time, but there is a statewide marylanders marylanders, require substance, abuse.

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Treatment, of course they do, but when we look at the purpose of the ag zone, of course, we can.

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Look at it together, but I'm paraphrasing the purpose of the ax don't promote agriculture.

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The retail commercial interests are designed to further the agricultural community and then.

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uh Commercial and industrial uses are, are those uses intended to serve the agricultural industry.

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And residents of the area, while maintaining the character of the surrounding countryside,.

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So we're going to ask you when you get ready to to make this legal determination to think.

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About that does a lifebridge comes in here and says all of marylanders need drug treatment.

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I'm saying not so fast or the purpose of this agzone says that a non-agricultural use is.

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Permitted in this zone, if it serves the local agricultural community, we say this does not.

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Now we also know that we can step further away from the carroll county ordinance and look at the.

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State regulatory regime for nursing homes and drug rehab they're separate regulatory mechanisms that.

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Look at nursing homes and drug rehab facilities, so that's further evidence that they're separate.

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But then you know I I you've heard you've heard so many land conditions of uk cases.

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I've advocated in so many conditional use cases and and the core aspect of a conditional use.

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Or a special exception case is what is the proposed use? This is the thought process that.

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Every tribunal goes to what is the proposed use, so you get a picture that proposed use in your mind.

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And then you've got to say what effect will that proposed use have on the neighborhood.

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Which is the term of art around the proposed use? So you gotta look. What are the land uses.

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Next door, how many people live next door? How close are they next door? What are the roads.

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Next door, are there any parks next door right? These are all the factors that you folks think.

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About every time you hear a conditional use case, and so now here we are in the year 2023.

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And they come in, the applicant comes in and says, look we want to step into.

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The shoes we are a drug rehab residential facility and we want to step into the shoes.

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Of a conditional use that was approved uh 33 years ago case number 3441.

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I respectfully suggest that you can't do that, because when you made this decision.

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Not you, your predecessors made this decision in the year 1990 33 years ago, that the your.

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Predecessors made a judgment as to the use at that time, the nursing home your predecessors.

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Made a judgment about the effects if any of that used on the surrounding community at that time,.

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And you reach the judgment that the application your predecessors reached the judgment that this.

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Application satisfied, section 158.133g: there is no way in the world. 33 years can go by and you can.

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Say a new youth, a totally different type of use with different numbers of people where the uses.

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Change where the the footprint of the building has changed, where the community has changed, there's no.

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Way you can find that this use can step into the use that was approved 33 years ago. So, to summarize,.

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We assert and we'll argue, and I believe it doesn't require any legal to any evidential testimony. We.

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Assert that this drug residential drug rehab facility is not a nursing home that the only.

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Fair reading of the zoning ordinance dictates that result that when you look at the greater statewide.

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Regulatory regime you'll see that there's separate regulatory models for nursing homes and for drug.

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Rehab facilities and then finally, you can't 33 years after fact, substitute a new use into.

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A use that was approved by your predecessors for a different use. So, for all those reasons.

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We're going to ask the board, at the appropriate time to disapprove the application. Thank you.

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Okay, with that, ms miller, are you ready to call your first witness? I am thank you, mr bale. I.

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Would first call mr robbie stempler who's present and seated to my left, mr stempler, can you please.

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Introduce yourself to the board, stating your name and address and spelling your last name. Yes,.

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Oh yes oath! I did not do the oath okay, so anyone that intends to testify here today.

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I need you to stand and raise your right hand. I propose matt just addressed this. Everyone.

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Who might testify stand up, raise your hand, and you may not do it, but this is your time to be.

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Sworn in just to say that, but we're not going to call all these people promise it's free.

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Okay, I don't see any more popping up. Raise your right hand, please.

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Do you affirm or swear under the penalties of perjury that the testimony you were about to give.

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Is the truth, the whole truth and nothing, but the truth very good. You can be seated. Okay, sorry, miss.

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Miller, that's okay. I appreciate that catch. uh I would call mr robbie stempler. Mr stempler, can you.

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Please introduce your introduce yourself stating your name and address and spelling your last name.

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Yes, thank you. Robbie stempler, s-t-e-m-p-l-e-r, 400, redland court owings mills maryland 21117.

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And can you briefly tell the board about yourself and your background sure I've been um in this.

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Space of addiction, treatment for over 10 years, um initially developing an electronic medical.

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Record software that uh ran addiction, treatment, centers built that company for four to five years.

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Operating over 2 000 facilities around the country opened my first drug and alcohol, inpatient rehab.

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Facility about a little over seven years ago and moved back to baltimore a couple.

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Years ago, to build treatment here, because it's it's needed in this state in maryland,.

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Needs us badly and do you currently own this property? I have it under contract. Okay,.

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Is it the intent of your entity to partner with lifebridge and the future use of this property? Yes,.

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In exploring this property, did you become aware of the previous bza decisions that you've heard.

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Discussed at the introduction of this case, I have yes, I believe that those decisions were attached.

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To the application itself, but I've brought copies as well, and I've provided mr nelson with a copy.

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Mr stempler, I'm showing you copies of bza former bza cases, three, four, four one and two seven eight.

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Two is that accurate? Yes, I've marked these as applicants exhibit one like. I said I believe.

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They're in the file, but just out of an abundance of caution, I would ask that these be entered.

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And we'll accept those into evidence.

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Are you aware of whether this property has been developed under the these bza approvals? Yes,.

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Has it yes to your knowledge, is there an approved site plan for the property? Yes,.

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Is that what was included in the bzi application? Yes,.

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Are you aware of whether this facility is used as an as a traditional nursing home today? Yes, is it.

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Yeah yeah well not occupied, it's not occupied currently correct, but it was it historically.

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Used as a nursing home, it was, are you aware of approximately how long it hasn't been occupied.

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As a traditional nursing home, I think a year, I'm sorry I didn't hear the answer. I think a year.

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As part of your request, are you proposing any new development of the site? No.

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Do you intend to change anything about the access or the building on the site? No.

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Mr stempler, I'm showing you what I've marked as applicants exhibit 2.

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um I've also provided a copy of this to mr nelson.

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Mr stempler, let's just walk through the pages of what's been marked, as applicants exhibit 2.

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Can you tell us what that first photograph is of a picture of the building? Okay is that is that.

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Front of the building: yes, okay photograph number, two page, two of six: what is that photograph of.

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Street off okay, so the access to the site is that accurate, okay age? Three of six? Can you tell.

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Us what that is an entrance off the parking lot? Okay. So that's the side of the building, correct.

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Four of six uh parking lot.

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Is that the rear, can you tell us, is that the rear or the front of the site rear.

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Page five of six uh parking lot again and is that structure in that photograph? The building? Yes, okay,.

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And then, finally, page six of six another part of the parking lot is that the side.

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View of the building- yes, so this is: is it fair to say that these photos accurately represent.

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Property as it sits today, yes, I'd like to ask that.

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These be entered, as applicants exhibit two. We will accept those into evidence.

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It's a lot of papers, I'm just going to try to keep myself organized sorry.

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Mr sempler, are you aware that the term nursing home is a defined term in the county code? I am.

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Have you had the opportunity to review that definition? I have in fact, do you have that.

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Sitting right in front of you, I do okay and having read that definition. Well, first be.

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Before I get to that question, let's start we'll talk about your use. Can you explain.

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To the board your requested use: yes, we are a residential addiction treatment center maryland.

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States use facilities follow asam guidelines, so this would be a 3.5 asam guideline facility.

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Providing the care under what acm defines as 3.5 residential that would include I'm going to cut.

E

You off really quick. Can you tell everybody what asam is the addiction I'm going to mess.

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This up addiction, science, society, uh I'm missing the word american society of addiction, medicine.

E

Thank you. Sorry. I didn't. I didn't want to cut off your train of thought, but I just I don't.

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Think that that's a widely recognized acronym for most of us so continue. Sorry, yes, um so in layman's.

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Terms, it's kind of uh summed up as 24-hour care providing medical and clinical services.

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um For clients that are suffering with substance, abuse and or alcohol and mental health issues.

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Are you aware of whether the state has a licensing requirement to operate a.

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Traditional nursing home model. Yes, are there state laws pertaining to that licensing? Yes,.

E

What are those state laws if you're aware I just uh here, we have a lay witness.

D

Expression, opinions about nursing homes and what the law requires. So I objecting.

D

Two reasons: first, it requires expert testimony two, it's a legal question.

A

I'm not I'm not going to ask him to interpret any of this, I'm purely going to ask him what.

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Section he he does have knowledge of this, and I'm going to ask him what section of the code.

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Regulates nursing homes, I'm not going to ask him to interpret or or posture anything that he's.

E

Okay, it's not in his area of expertise. Thank you under that context, thank you.

E

Mr stempler, what state laws pertain to nursing homes.

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um I know the komar regulates. Okay, are you aware of what title in comar regulates nursing homes.

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um I am, I can't think of the numbers off the top of my head, but title 10.

A

Go ahead, I'm sorry that was not a legal point I just made, but the because I was.

D

Stunned, I object to the leading question. Okay and- and I just like to direct the the.

A

um uh You don't know the answer to the question, just state that okay got it.

E

Changing gears are there state licensing requirements for the type of residential.

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Treatment facility that you're proposing yes, okay, uh are there laws pertaining to that licensing.

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Yes, who regulates that um komar? So that's it are you aware of whether it's the same or a.

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Different section of komar that regulates nursing homes and uh residential treatment facilities.

D

And same objection, these are legal arguments, legal questions being addressed by a lay witness.

E

Mr bale, I'm presenting this evidence not for my client to analyze the legal sections of the.

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Code but to point out that both are regulated by the exact same titles. Chapters of these agencies.

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He's I am not going to ask him to interpret or make a legal conclusion on what they say.

E

Okay, I'll allow that as long as you don't do that you're only asking you're only.

A

Asking of what the you're not asking a legal interpretation of the code? Okay, correct, I'm not.

E

Mr stempler, is it accurate that there are different levels of residential service? Yes,.

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Recognizes those hey sam, which is what the state of maryland falls.

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Is asam a national or local agency national.

I

E

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Mr stempler you're, looking at what I've marked as applicants, exhibit three and mr nelson. This.

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Is the asam and carf article that I've provided a copy of previously? Did you briefly summarize.

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What this says yeah it goes through the the description of the different levels of care.

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Per asam and the guidelines, and as of about a year ago, they did a partnership with carf the state of.

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Maryland requires that you either have a carf or joint commission accreditation in order to operate.

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These types of facilities, but that's what's okay, I think so. Is there a state agency? Oh well, first, let.

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Me ask that this exhibit be entered, as applicants exhibit three. We will accept that into evidence.

E

Is there a state agency that regulates these levels locally? Aside from the asam guidelines,.

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That you just spoke to comar. What can you, what does comar stand for? Did we say this? I'm sorry.

E

If we did, I could have something: okay, can you generally describe walk us through the levels.

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And I I don't want you to get too specific, but I want you to explain to the board the levels of.

E

Service that are um that are recognized by asam and that are governed by komar.

G

Okay um pertaining to this look I'm just going to go through 3.0 to 4.0, um 4.0 and.

G

3.7 withdrawal management is a is a medical level of care where you're detoxing, the client.

G

um So you're physically separating the client from drugs and or alcohol generally speaking,.

G

Seven to ten days and then there's asam, 3.1, 3.3 and 3.5, which are all considered residential care.

G

um 3.5 has a minimum of 40 hours of clinical services a week, 3.5 less 3.1, even less. It's.

G

More of a community living type guideline that asam created um where you only have to have five.

G

Hours of clinical services a week, I'm sorry what level was that that only requires five hours, 3.1.

E

And do you know what type of what level you would operate at this facility? I mean five okay.

E

Mr stempler, I'm showing you what I have marked as applicants exhibit four.

E

Can you just tell us what this document is? Yeah, it's um describing level 3.5, asam level of care.

E

Facility correct correct.

E

Is this a document that you prepared, or that is kind of a state document.

G

State I didn't prepare this okay.

E

I would ask that applicants exhibit 4, be entered, we'll accept that into evidence.

E

Mr stempler, do patients stay overnight at this type of facility? Yes, is there an average period.

E

Of stay for a patient at this time at a 3.5 level facility, yes, generally 30 to 45 days.

E

As part of the level of care and your proposed use at this facility, is there any? Are you proposing.

E

Any planned outdoor activity no, are there any uh does this use generate any noise, odors or dust.

E

um Greater than what you're aware existed previously, no.

E

Can you describe the staffing at a facility like this? Yes, um 24-hour staff clients are monitored.

G

And mechanisms such as rounds every hour done, where you're locating where the clients are.

G

um There's a full clinical team, that's providing.

G

um You know licensed clinicians to do more of the therapeutic side um and then there is a.

G

Full nursing and medical team to help provide the medical care. That's needed, post, detoxification.

G

um So, generally speaking, usually clients around some. You know meds that are helping them with.

G

Depression and or anxiety, anxiety, non-narcotic meds. So that's you know: continued post detox.

E

Approximately, how many total employees do you think you would need for a facility like this.

G

um Around 60 is that total or is that per shift total okay? So how many shifts are.

E

There three shifts okay, and you said that there's 24-hour staffing is that 24 hours.

E

Clinical staffing at this type of facility, it's 24-hour staffing, there is one member.

G

Of the clinical team, that's there always 24 hours, okay, and is that part of is this all.

E

Part of your licensing requirement to operate a facility like this. Yes,.

E

Can you compare the traffic associated with this use as to what existed previously on.

E

The site objection it'll be I'll rephrase are patients allowed to have cars on the site? No.

E

How do they get to and from the site um they're either dropped off or transportation is scheduled.

E

Is that would that all occur during normal business hours? Yes,.

E

And what about employees? How do they get to and from the site.

G

uh Drive: okay: uh are there any visitors allowed? Yes, but not that's, not prior scheduled and.

G

Clinically planned, and you cannot just show up and visit, um you know, I would say less traffic.

E

Are the visitors during controlled hours? Oh, yes, yes are those all during normal business hours. Yes,.

E

Have you had the opportunity to review the normal dictionary definitions of chronically.

E

The term chronically or chronic I have.

E

Mr stempler, you have in front of you what I've marked as applicants exhibit five.

E

Is that the dictionary definition of chronic it is.

E

Can you read to us what that says, a continuing or occurring again and again for a long time.

G

Suffering from a chronic disease always present or encountered.

J

E

Mr stempler, I'm now showing you what I've marked as applicants exhibit six.

E

Can you tell us what that is the definition of convalence.

E

Can you read that to us sure to recover health and strength gradually after sickness or weakness.

E

I'd like to ask that both exhibits, five and six be entered. We will accept those into evidence.

E

Mr stempler, in reading those dictionary definitions.

E

How does that describe the type of facility that you operate objection to uh of no objection to the.

D

Introduction of the definition of no objection to the witness reading the definition. But I do.

D

Object to him expressed an opinion as to whether the proposed use meets one of these definitions.

E

I'll attempt to rephrase and see if that's, okay.

E

Mr stemplar, I'm looking at applicants exhibit five the definition of chronic.

E

It reads continuing or occurring again and again for a long time.

E

Does that accurately depict the type of addiction that your patients suffer from objection? Yeah.

K

This is a legal opinion rendered by a lay witness on an issue that the board needs to.

D

Address at the conclusion of this case, I just don't think that that a late witnesses should.

D

Be permitted to provide legal interpretations of whether his use meets a certain definition.

D

That's the basis of the objection, ms miller, this is a general merriam-webster definition.

E

And I think my client is more than suited to answer the question of whether his.

E

Type of facility serves somebody suffering from a chronic condition.

E

He has, he has explained his experience in the industry and his other uh establishments that.

E

He has, and I think he can accurately describe the type of patient that he serves. I'm going to.

A

Allow the question and allow you to answer the question under the context that uh it is not.

A

um Which the context is it's based on his experience and the clients that he's dealing.

A

With not the legal definition in the in the county code so I'll, I will allow that. Thank you.

E

Do you need me to reset the question, mr stumpler? No, yes, um addiction is a chronic illness.

E

Looking at what I've marked as applicants exhibit six convalesce reads to recover.

E

Health and strength gradually after sickness or weakness, can you speak to.

E

Whether that's something that your facility promotes exactly what we do in your industry,.

E

Is alcoholism and or drug addiction recognized as a chronicle illness? Yes,.

E

Have you had the opportunity to review the dictionary definition of addiction? I have.

E

Mr stempler, I'm showing you what I've marked as applicants exhibit seven can.

E

You tell us what that is the definition of addiction by miriam webster, okay and can.

E

You read that to us a compulsive, chronic, physiological or psychological need for.

G

A habit-forming substance, behavior or activity having harmful physical.

G

Psychological or social efforts, and typically causing well-defined symptoms such as anxiety.

G

Irritability, tremors or nausea, upon withdrawal or abstinence, the state of being addicted.

E

Having reviewed these definitions, these dictionary definitions and your familiarity or reading of the.

E

County code definition: do you believe that your use falls within the use allowed as a nursing.

E

Home objection, could you restate the question you're asking his expertise as it relates to.

A

The definitions, I'm okay with that, but the as far as the code goes. um We he hasn't been.

A

Pre-Qualified as understanding the codes I I may need to rephrase mr bale, because what I'm trying.

E

To ask is knowing these general definitions that we've just read from merriam-webster.

E

Applying the those are, those are the terms used in the code, definition that are not defined by.

E

The code, so in reading those general definitions does he believe those general definitions meet.

E

His use requested okay and that's different than that. I I will re-clarify by saying it that way.

A

And I I have no problem with that that questioning thank you. Yes,.

E

Those are my only questions of mr stempler.

A

Okay, mr nelson, do you have questions of mr stempler's testimony? I do. Thank you. I I won't.

D

Be long, uh mr stempler, do you have a copy of exhibit 2 your work copy that you could look.

D

So these the the packet of photographs, I think, there's six. I just have a few questions.

D

Stempler page one is six: what building is this.

G

The building we're talking about which part of the building of the building we're talking about.

G

And we already go over this answer. He did answer this question in my testimony. We walked through.

E

The location of each photograph, but I'm just asking you, tell us what what this building is.

G

What this building, what is that calendar? What is that photograph show? Those chairman, I'm asking my.

D

Cross-Examination, I would prefer it if council wouldn't I apologize. My question is: what does.

D

Exhibit want photograph one of six in exhibit two depict. That's the question for the witness.

G

The building that we're in discussion about all right, so is this: the entire building or just part.

D

Of the building that we're talking about part of the buildings on the photograph, let's go to page.

D

Two of six: please, I see an asphalt driveway and I also see a structure. Is that structure part of.

D

What we're talking about in this case, I don't know what structure you're referring to I'm referring. I.

D

Would ask the board look at page two is six and I'm directing the witness to a structure in the.

D

Photograph a building my question to the witness is: is that building part of this application.

H

Yes, a big pardon, I didn't hear any points. Are we looking at the same page, two of six exhibit two.

D

The building that we look we're all looking at together is that part of this application.

G

If I'm looking at the same thing as you, yes, okay,.

D

So just so so we're supposed to witness your page two six.

D

So I'm going to put a circle around that building on my copy and that's the building. I'm referring.

D

To so the record, your test line sure is that building is part of this application.

G

My understanding, yes, I'd like to move into.

D

Evidence my copy of exhibit 2 page two is six which was circled that building.

L

A

Mr nelson, you want to move that into evidence. Yes, sir, okay, we'll accept that, in as evidence.

D

D

Mr sepler, uh is it your testimony that there have been no changes to this nursing home.

D

Since the year uh 1990., I did not know that no, how many employees were there in the year 1990.

D

At the nursing home when this conditional use was approved 33 years ago, I do not know that.

D

No, I want to ask a few questions if I might, sir, about the different levels.

D

You referred to 3.1, 3.5, 3.7 and and 4.0. I believe, correct asam uh and I understood.

D

You to communicate and I'm doing this from memory so far, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.

D

So correctly I have my memories flawed, but 3.7 and 4-0 are the most extreme. That's where you're.

D

Doing withdrawal treatment where you're trying to is that, is that the message you communicated.

G

Yes, it's considered as detoxification in the industry, so the uh 3.5 is one step.

D

Down from that, that's for a high intensity residential services. Isn't it correct and.

D

The 3.5 level for high intensity residential services is more intense uh than level 3.3.

G

You could say that well define intent less clinical hours. Well then um it's your area.

D

Not mine, what's the difference between 3.7 correction between 3.5 and 3.3, less required.

G

Clinical hours, okay and uh and in layman's terms, can a layman draw from that that the patients who.

D

Were being treated at a 3.3 level, aren't don't have it as an acute, a need for treatment as.

D

The patients at the 3.5 level- yes, but um private insurance- doesn't even acknowledge 3.3 or 3.1 as.

G

A level of care, it's just residential 3.5, all right and 3.1- has less clinical care than 3.5.

D

Is that right, that's correct all right and what you're asking this board to approve is level three.

D

Point what you're asking this board to approve today is level 3.5 with 60 employees, correct.

D

That's all I have thank you.

A

Okay, this is going to be fun. Anyone in the audience have any questions who's, not my client.

A

I'm not his client.

A

Yeah yeah, who, yes I'm sorry, I understand what you're saying anyone that is not mr.

A

Nelson's client, that's in the audience, if they have questions of mr stempler's.

A

Testimony and again only questions of his testimony, your own testimony.

A

Will be allowed at a later point in the in the proceedings. I promise you.

A

So anyone who has a question of his testimony go go to the microphone, no, no go to the microphone.

A

Please state your name: okay, state, your name, address occupation and spell for.

A

The record your last name, uh nick hershey and 1607 glenwood court finksburg maryland.

M

uh Retired, and how do you spell your last name- g-r-s-h-a-n? Okay, thank you. I have a question.

M

You stated earlier, you have a contract for the building. Do you have any stipulations.

E

Objection but he did not testify to the specifics of the contract. I don't think.

E

It's really relevant to this proceeding yeah. He just said that he's a contract.

A

Purchaser so well, and I will point out that lifebridge health who owns the property did.

E

Also sign the application as the property owner consenting to this application as well.

M

What were their stipulations, not in reference, if you don't get approved.

A

That's the relevancy of that has nothing to do with our decision making here. So, okay.

A

Anyone else have any questions of his of his of his testimony. Now. Wait a minute wait, a minute.

N

Yes, my name is david ader, it's 5241 stonebridge way, a-d-e-r and I'm retired.

N

It's under 3.5 treatment is that court ordered treatment, or is that.

N

Voluntary admission, voluntary, and so if somebody is voluntary, larry admitted.

N

You may leave at any time find himself out at any time in the middle of the night.

G

Correct anytime, during the day it's not jail, they are free to go, but there is a discharge process.

G

So they don't just walk, they can't just walk off property, so clinically treated at a serious.

N

Level they could sign out at any time without transportation and walk in the neighborhood.

G

No, they would have to follow the discharge process, but if they don't want to.

G

It's not jail, I can't lock them in. I have no other questions.

A

Okay, any other questions of his testimony.

A

Name address occupation is spelled for the record. Your last name, please richard lawson,.

O

5087 amity away uh retired uh l-a-w-s-o-n, I just had a question about the number of employees. How.

O

Many of those include security employees, so is that facility is not secure, it is secure there.

G

Is I've been dieted? Oh, I thought you meant if I'm operating it, what would well yeah.

P

Sure so security people are, I don't think I would use that term. um I think this is kind of a big.

G

Issue that addiction is is viewed as criminals and that's not the case. um So as far as like security.

G

I would say that my facilities are extremely secure. I've never had anyone walk off premise.

G

On my existing facilities, I've never had anyone die. I've never had you know any altercations.

G

That are physical, um anything like that and you know, there's 24-hour care. So I don't know.

G

When you say security, I'm envisioning, you know jails and people with badges and guns or weapons.

G

That's not going to be the case, so can we uh say that the answer to that question is none.

O

Of the employees are dealing with security defined security. Well, someone to be checking the doorway.

O

To make sure that person isn't leaving that proper discharge paper, oh yeah they're, definitely.

G

Employees they consider security employees. Yes, there are definitely employees that are obligated.

G

And responsible for doing that, oh if you say so, if I say yes they're in the back go to the microphone.

A

Name address occupation is spelled for the record of your last name. My.

Q

Name is matthew, pollock, p-o-l-l-a-c-k career firefighter, local business owner.

Q

So, mr stempler, mr chair, just briefly, I'm sorry I hate to cut anybody off, but I have to object.

E

Because I think a few of the people that have been cross-examining are on mr nelson's list.

E

Of of clients that he's provided me, and so I believe we clarified as a point of order.

E

That, under this board's rules of procedure, they cross-examine through their attorney. So are you.

A

So I'll ask you the question: I'm not you! You are not. Okay, I'm sorry! I didn't didn't ask.

A

That question of anyone that previously went to the microphone okay go ahead. Mr pollock, mr.

Q

Stemper, thank you for giving us a better idea of what you do. It's now pretty soon to me that.

Q

By your testimony, these people are free to come and go. Is that correct? Yes, okay, now.

Q

I have a pretty good understanding of dealing with people with substance abuse in my line of work.

Q

What I've noticed in the past and I'm going to ask you, do the people who were coming to your facility.

Q

Court ordered not court ordered free to come and go. Do they frequently have criminal histories.

G

I wouldn't say frequently: do they at all? I've had clients that have had criminal histories, okay,.

Q

Have you ever had drugs introduced into your facility when someone leaves and comes back.

Q

Has anyone ever tried to bring drugs back to your facility? Of course, clients have tried. Okay,.

Q

Do you or have you ever had anybody any facilities who is a registered sex offender.

G

We're not, I can't answer that. We don't, I believe, there's a requirement when someone.

Q

Has an address in this case they'd be changing their address temporarily. That.

Q

They would have to register, they don't have to change their address.

Q

My understanding of the registered sex offender, if I'm gonna, if I wasn't.

Q

A retro sex offender, I'm gonna go, spend 50 days at a facility. I need to notify.

Q

The local authorities and people in the surrounding area.

Q

That I was a sex offender apologies. I thought you meant all. Clients would have to change their.

G

Addresses the permanent residents so is it? Is it believable or understandable that you could have.

Q

A registered sex offender being introduced into this neighborhood without the residents knowing.

H

Yes, okay, thank you. Is it by understanding that we could have people with violent.

Q

Criminal pasts staying in our neighborhood around our children.

Q

Who would not have been there if this facility did not exist.

E

Action. Okay! Let me let me phrase it this way. If this is a nursing home.

Q

Do you think that we're getting people who are have convictions violent criminal histories, sex.

Q

Offenses staying at a nursing home objection, mr nelson specifically pointed out that my.

E

Client is not here testifying as an expert in the nursing home industry, so I don't think I.

E

Think he can offer a layman's opinion on that. I do not think that he can offer an industry.

Q

Expert opinion: do you do a background check on the individuals who are staying your facility.

Q

G

G

um Not as the same as I would background check an employee, um we do a pre-admission assessment.

G

um We have an extensive um pre-assessment done post that um I guess, when you say background check.

G

I'm thinking of how I would perform a background check from an hr perspective for an employee.

G

um But yes, there is a background process that we would call pre-admission and are going through.

G

Questions such as past use past treatment, plus legal issues. If there are family members.

G

Previous diagnoses um so on and so forth, okay, as an expert in the addiction field,.

Q

Do you see a correlation at all with addiction and criminal history.

H

Q

So it is your testimony that a addict, a chronic addict, as you eloquently read us, the definition of.

Q

Has no greater chance of having a criminal history, then the average person walking through.

Q

The streets of carroll county, I'm a chronic addict and I don't have a criminal history.

C

Wait a minute wait, a minute! Wait, a minute! That's enough out of the gallery unless you're at the.

A

Microphone identify yourself, keep your comments to yourself. Thank you. So it is your testimony today.

Q

That the addicts at your facility have no greater chance of breaking other laws in the community.

Q

Than the average citizen living on buckhorn road.

Q

Absolutely I don't know, I mean that that's a hypothetical question, just too hypothetical.

A

I'm I'm sorry it's he's in. He he's a proclaimed expert in this area. I can.

Q

Tell you as a career firefighter I mean this is that's testimony. You have the opportunity.

A

To do that later, sir, I'm not giving you testimony questions only of his testimony.

Q

Have you ever had any violent incidents at any of the facilities of the thousands of of.

Q

Facilities that I heard you you say you were associated with, I think you're speaking from.

G

A software perspective, not my own personal facilities, is that is that what you're asking.

Q

From any of your facilities, have there ever been an issue with violence, nope.

Q

Not one incident violence at any of those, and oh no, okay, but you said there have been.

Q

Drugs introduced into those facilities correct. I said that clients have tried to admit with drugs.

G

Yes, so with that reasoning with your facility in our neighborhood, we can expect additional.

Q

Influx of drugs- again, that's testimony you're supposed to be asking questions. I'm putting you.

A

On a short leash, that's fine, sir! Do you believe that there is any safety concern whatsoever.

Q

With putting this facility in the middle of a residential neighborhood adjacent to a park,.

G

No, we we view these facilities different.

G

um All my other facilities are in residentially zoned houses, okay, yep.

Q

No for other questions. Thank you.

A

Any other questions of his testimony and again I'm going to ask you, as you go to the microphone.

A

Or you one of mr nelson's clients, okay hi, I'm justin groove I live at 5272. Frederick could.

A

You speak up. Please sorry. My name is justin grove g-r-o-v-e. I live at 5272, freder road.

L

A satellite ground system engineer: I just wanted to clarify what is the the timeline for treatment.

L

I thought I heard 15 days and then maybe up to 50. Is that clarified in the level of care of the 3.5.

L

No, I mean we, we treat, I would say, the average length of stay is 30 to 45 days. um The inpatient.

G

Residential model- sometimes it's referred as like. The betty ford model is 30 days, um but you're.

G

Working with the insurance providers and and staff to determine the length of stay individually for.

G

Each client, but on average it'll, be 30 to 45 days. Okay and just one final question for the zoning.

L

Part are any other facilities in agriculture. Zoned uh areas like this one is proposed to be.

G

Not mine, I don't, if you don't, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know say you.

R

Don't know I don't know, okay, thank you. Thank you. Anyone else have any questions. Testimony.

A

And again, I'm going to ask you to come to the microphone you're, not one of mr nelson's class.

A

I am my name. Is ben white? Okay, wait a minute! Wait a minute you're one of mr nelson's school. Yes, yes,.

R

Okay, you know your questions can only be addressed through your attorney. Oh okay, okay, thank you.

A

Anyone else have any questions I'll ask you the same question as you.

R

Okay, very good jeff, the june uh p-e-j-u-n-e 1306 buckhorn road of a government property manager.

S

uh Just a couple, quick questions, I think most of my questions were answered previously, but uh are you a profit entity? Yes, all right and two.

S

um I know we spoke about criminal history. Do a lot of your clients, have mental health issues.

G

So if they are mental health primary, we won't treat them.

G

um Co-Occurring happens often with uh with addiction, but we are not primary mental health.

S

But a lot of your clients do have mental health issues.

S

Yeah, I don't really, I mean I mean you're just saying they have both and that's you can treat.

G

Correct but you cannot, we cannot thank you very mental health.

A

Any other questions they would have to have primary substance abuse.

A

Okay board members, questions of the testimony.

R

Wow sure I do mr snyder, so if I understand correctly, your industry.

T

The residential drug treatment industry, uh which I'm not everybody familiar with.

T

Is managed through comar regulations? Is that correct in maryland, correct in.

T

Maryland and who's the governing agency of komar in maryland, the department of.

G

I don't know it's not the health department. Well, I'm asking you.

G

T

um Have have you ever managed or operated a uh parasit yeah.

T

Owner managed a drug treatment facility in maryland, so I have a uh 13 million dollar.

G

Roundup, build in baltimore county that has a certificate in need. um Is it just being developed.

G

It's being built as we speak, so is the answer that you've not operated a facility in maryland.

G

Correct not directly under hygiene, correct, yep, yep, yep,.

T

um When you talk about staffing and dealing relatively familiar with nursing homes,.

T

Having a wife that's been in the industry for years are any of the facilities you worked in.

T

Been asked: is it assam or sam what? How was the emphasis hey, sam, hey, sam? Thank you, hey.

T

Sam or kumar certified america certified. What was the the question? I'm sorry, either of the.

T

Facilities or any of the facilities that you've been involved with or managed been certified by.

T

Carf, yes, or by okay and joint commission and and where were those facilities, um california, okay,.

T

Two levels: komar, I a home industry, uh the staffing levels are very regulated. You must.

T

Have a b and c uh xml bar ads xml of this x amount of that? How is that? How is staffing at.

T

um Residential drug treatment abuse whatever the word is same recovery yeah how they managed same.

G

Where there's a client per ratio of client per therapist client per nurse- and that includes.

T

The skill set, the particular skill sets correct. Okay and, as part of the skill sets that require.

T

Given that the type of facility that you're asking for required a certain medical.

T

uh Requirement like an rn must be on on on site all the time or whatever the case may be correct.

T

And lastly, if I can understand how long has this facility been not occupied.

G

My understanding is a year around the year one year.

T

So in the last year it's been used as a nursing home or some type of activity like that is that.

T

What I'm I'm not looking, I'm I'm looking at you is that what you said. Yes, my understanding is.

G

Within the last year, but it's been about a year gotcha, that's my questions, any other questions.

A

Of his testimony board members, one other quick follow-up question the questions you asked so.

U

Private insurance is that how assuming that say, I need to go to your facility, and I have.

U

Private insurance is this: is the coverage or the treatment typically coverage by.

U

Covered by private insurance like it would be, if I went to the hospital or some other.

G

Correct um but we will accept private insurance medicaid um all the payers.

A

No follow-up questions, mr nelson, nothing further miss miller, any follow-up questions.

A

While he's, I do have a few, mr chair, um just to clarify a few things that were asked of him.

E

um Mr stempler, mr ader, I believe I'm going to try to pronounce everyone's last name correctly.

E

Mr ader asked you about the voluntary discharge process. Can you just go into a little bit more.

E

Detail about what it requires to voluntarily discharge correct. um So when a client admits.

G

We're taking all their valuables um their money if they have any their phone, their id their wallet.

G

um So when they are choosing to discharge um ama or against medical advice or involuntary.

G

Or voluntary there they would have to go through a whole process of signing the documents getting.

G

Back there valuables or receivables they. You know, I've never had a client walk off premise.

E

Mr lawson asked you about the security at this facility in terms of employment. Can.

E

You explain what security will be present, not necessarily in terms of a person but like what.

E

Are your security measures here overall um cameras everywhere? um Not you know one door in and out.

G

um We cannot lock the door but one door in and out um 24-hour staff uh monitoring.

G

um Through the electronic medical record system, we're doing rounds so every hour.

G

Checking where the client is sometimes even q15, every 15 minutes um and then noting in the medical.

G

Record where that client is physically having eyes on him or her um yeah, you were asked by.

E

Mr bajoon, whether this is a profit, a for-profit entity, does that impact in any way shape or form.

E

How you operate this facility no describes some of the you spoke to mr vision's question about.

E

Mental health issues and you said that you will treat co-worker when it's co-occurring. Can you.

E

Just provide an example of what that would mean or what that would look like yeah I mean I, I have not.

G

In my decade, plus experience in this field have not met someone that is addicted to drugs and.

G

Alcohol that didn't suffer from depression, anxiety or some sort of mental health issue.

G

um So that's what co-occurring means um if they are schizophrenic, which is mental health or let's.

G

Say bipolar ii like that would be more of a shepherd pratt mental health primary facility.

G

We wouldn't be treating them, they would, you know, have primary substance, use, disorder and.

G

I don't think you can have that without having some kind of mental health issue.

E

Those are my only follow-up questions. Thank you.

A

Mr nelson, based on that, do you have any further questions nothing further. Thank.

D

You, okay, at this point, we're going to take about a five to ten minute break. Thank you.

A

Okay, we're going to call bza back to order. Ms miller, do you have another witness? I do mr chair.

E

I would next call mr jay voigt. Mr voigt see that you're seated at the podium already. Can you please.

E

Introduce yourself stating your name, spelling your last name and your address for the record.

I

My name is jay voigt, it's spelled vision, victor o-I-g-h-t. I am the.

I

County zoning administrator and I work here at 225 north center street.

E

Capacity is a zoning administrator? What do you have authority to do enforce and interpret the.

I

Code of the signing ordinance, and are you aware that there is a definition of nursing home? I am.

E

There was a letter that was introduced as part of the file at the beginning of this case.

E

I I don't know if you need to see a copy, but can you say whether that.

E

Was an accurate whether that contains your signature or not.

E

Second page.

I

That is my signature, and it is. I do agree with that interpretation.

E

In considering the characteristics presented, do you believe that this use meets the.

E

Definition of a nursing home the county code, definition of a nursing home objective.

D

There's been no void here, there's been no proper of expertise. There's been no acceptance of the.

D

Witness as an expert and the attorney just asked the opinion question, that's that's one.

D

Of the bases of the objection you want to qualify, I will back up and I'm aware that.

E

Mr boyd has appeared several times in front of this board as an expert in the area of zoning. If.

E

You'd like me to actually ask him the qualifying questions I'm happy to, but because of his past.

E

Testimony if you're willing to I would ask that you accept him as an expert in the area of zoning.

E

And- and we will mr voigt is almost a monthly guest of ours. Thank you.

E

Mr voigt I'll re-ask the question in considering the characteristics do.

E

You believe that the proposed use meets the county code, definition of a nursing home. I do.

E

You have do you have the county code in front of you, mr yes, I do.

E

Why do you believe that it meets the definition of a nursing home, our definition of a nursing.

I

Care in reads is a residential health care facility, which provides institutional lodging.

I

Nursing care, personal care and supervision to aged chronically ill, physically affirmed.

I

Or convalescent patients who are not related to the owner or administrator of the facility.

E

Mr voigt, as part of your duties, your official duties as zoning.

E

Administrator, do you interpret and enforce previous bza decisions? I do.

E

Do bza approvals run with the property they do they expire? No, they do not.

E

Are there other uses in our code that are not specifically carved.

E

Out but that are allowed in the county. Yes, there is, can you provide an example or two.

I

um Most people would not consider a methadone clinic.

I

Which is a drug treatment facility? The county considers that as a doctor's office as a medical.

I

Office: it's where patients are being treated by a physician or qualified staff and in making that.

E

Determination you look at the characteristics of the use. Is that accurate, that's correct.

E

Is there also a general use of general retail in our county code? There is: is that similar.

E

In nature, whereby you have to assess the characteristics of a use and apply that.

E

Definition to decide whether it meets I do. Those are my only questions of mr voigt.

A

Nelson, do you have questions on mr voight? I do mr voight you've been the zone administrator.

D

Here, for how many years, sir 13 years, all right so since about the year 2000.

I

2010 2010, I'm sorry, I lost a decade there. We all did.

D

But my point: is you weren't, the zoning administrator in 1990.? That's correct. Now.

D

Do you have the uh I understand your testimony in layman's terms to be in essence, this proposed.

D

Application uh is meets the definition of the county's definition of nursing home.

D

Yes, it does and you have your definition there. Do you not? Yes, I do so. Let's go through that together.

D

Nursing home in bold font period first phrase is a residential health care facility which.

D

Provides institutional lodging residential health care now it's fair to say that most.

D

Nursing homes, the uh the the period of residence, is longer than 45 days.

E

Objection, mr nelson, I'm not sure if that's testimony or if there's a question the question.

D

Is would he not agree that most residents in a nursing home are present there in that nursing.

D

Home for more than 45 days, that's necessarily give me an example of a resident who's been in.

D

A resident who who's alive and remained in a nursing home less than 45 days I broke my legs.

I

Severely four years ago, and after I got out of the hospital for a week, I was sent to a nursing home.

I

For rehab- and I was in that facility for three and a half weeks, all right, so what you're saying.

D

Is a nursing home and your judgment includes a rehab facility- that's correct! All right now.

D

Would you also agree that a nursing home provides nursing care? That's one of the key ingredients.

D

Key elements: nursing care: what's your definition of nursing care and I'll? My question to you, mr voy:.

D

Is do I see the two words in this definition quote nursing care? Are they present in the definition.

D

Yes, they are okay describe for me, the nursing care present in this drug rehab facility level, 3.5.

I

um I have not been told what the level of nursing care the applicant provides to.

I

His clients, all right so just so, the record is clear. You and I are agreeing right now that you.

D

Have no knowledge as to what, if any nursing care the applicant would provide at the proposed drug.

D

Rehab facility- I don't know the level of nursing care he's, I haven't been briefed on what it is.

I

My understanding, nursing care is, is basically someone who is assisting someone who needs help.

I

I'm very difficult times how many nurses will be there.

I

I have no idea all right now: let's go to the next line supervision to what's the next word.

I

I hope we were personal care and supervision to the age to what to the age to aged.

D

Now, as your role as zoning administrator, how do you interpret that word aged.

I

Anyone born between being born into whenever they died. I mean.

I

Wait a minute wait! A minute called you down before I'm going to call you down.

A

Again and I'll clear the room if I have to this is his testimony under oath respect. It.

D

Question, sir, is how do you? What is the word in this definition aged mean? Does that mean.

D

A young adolescent in high school who's addicted to drugs. I would generally say no but, like I say.

I

There's no limit to what you would refer to as aged okay, but you would agree that most people.

D

Reading this definition, when they see the phrase aged they would think it's certain when it's in.

D

The context of a nursing home, a elderly person, would they not elderly. I I don't think I would.

I

Say, elderly all right how about a all right? How about an 18 year old boy who has a misfortune of.

D

Being addicted to drugs, would he be in your in your parlance, an aged patient, not necessarily no.

D

Come on please.

D

Mr voight, uh in your role as zoning administrator, can you give me one example of another case.

D

Where an applicant has petitioned the board of zoning appeals in carroll county to say, there's.

D

A prior approval of a nursing home conditional use- and we want to step into its shoes with a.

D

Drug rehab facility- well, I wouldn't say necessarily that but, like I say as far.

I

As I'm concerned a drug rehab facility, my question part of me was very precise.

D

Can you share with this board, based on your years of experience in this county, one example where.

D

An applicant has petitioned prior to this case, petitioned the board of zoning appeals to say we.

D

Have a a 33 year old approval for a conditional use, and we want to step into that approval with.

D

A drug rehab facility conditional use for a nursing home. I can't think any of right.

I

At the moment, I don't have all the case files in front of me to say whether there was or not.

I

So you don't know you can't. I can't recall any that's all I have. Thank you, mr miller. Do you.

A

Have any cross, I have a few follow-up questions for mr voigt. If you will mr voigt I'm looking at.

E

The definition of nursing home- and I just want to read through it again so, mr nelson just directed.

E

You to the part that said aged it. Can you read the full definition for us? First, a residential health.

I

Care facility which provides institutional, lodging, nursing care, personal care and supervision to aged.

I

Chronically ill physically infirm or convalescent patients who are not related to the owner or.

I

Administrator of the facility and is the word or before convalescent patience, that's correct.

E

So would it be your interpretation that one must meet one of those.

D

Object now this is a legal grammatical debate about what uh that this juncture phrase means.

D

There's k: it's a it's a legal argument: it's not a subject for this witness. I asked him.

D

About the word aged she's asked him about the word uh convalescent uh and chronic. I believe.

D

So I would object to this question. I'm happy to make the legal argument in my closing statement.

E

I think mr avoid just testified that his authority to his to interpret the zoning.

E

Code and in interpreting it he has to look at the words or or and in making his determination.

A

I'm going to allow him to answer the question based on.

A

We've qualified him as an expert witness as zoning administrator.

A

And he's giving his opinion as zoning administrator, not as an attorney.

I

Can you repeat the question please.

E

In your interpretation, mr voigt does one have to meet all or one of those because of the word or.

I

um It does not have to meet all of them. Thank you. I have one additional question. Mr boyd.

E

Are you aware of other um residential treatment facilities in carroll county? Yes, I am so this will.

E

Not be the first allowed in the county, correct correct. Those are my only questions, mr boyd.

A

Okay board members questions of mr white's testimony.

A

Thank you very much, mr boy. Do I get a redirect yeah, I'm sorry, mr nelson? Yes, if you do please get.

A

My attention, if you do, if you want to redirect I'm mr void, you mentioned, there's another residential.

D

Treatment facility uh in carroll county can you name another residential drug treatment.

D

Facility in carroll county, that's not associated with a hospital and is not on land zoned i2.

I

There are quite a few residential treatment centers throughout the county in residential.

I

Areas in single-family homes that are group home that are treating recovering alcoholics and drug.

I

Addicts, there are quite a few, in fact, this board just had a case not too long ago, where.

I

One of those facilities was asking to expand and the board at that time turned them down.

I

My question, sir, is: can you name a residential facility in carroll county? That's not associated.

D

With a hospital and is not an i2 land, yes, give me one, please, I can't remember the names of them all.

D

That's all I have thank you.

A

Anything from further miss miller. No! Thank you. Okay! Thank you, mr voit. Thank you. Mr voigt are.

A

You going to call another witness. I have one more witness, mr chair. Okay, very good.

E

Call mr marty hackett. Please.

E

Mr, mr hackett, can you please state your name spelling your last name.

E

And your address for the record: yes, martin hackett.

V

439 east main street westminster 21157, my last name spelled h-a-c-k-e-t-t.

E

Ee, mr dixon, may I ask, are we numbering exhibits for applicant and for opposition? Yes, okay,.

E

I just wanted to make sure I get my accurate number here.

B

B

Can I have opposition exhibit more.

B

Interesting. Thank you.

E

Mr hackett, as this board is aware, has appeared before this board several times as an expert.

E

Witness, historically, I'm more than happy. If mr nelson wants to ask him any additional questions.

E

I have provided a copy of his resume to mr nelson, but I would ask that because of his.

E

Past experience in testifying as an expert that this board would accept him as an expert in the.

E

Area of land use, design and planning. Mr nelson, any objection! Well, uh I may I I I see no degrees on.

D

His cv I mean so yeah. I do object, I'm looking to see if it says continuing education at community.

D

College it talks about traffic planning, I'm not seeing any expertise in land plan and urban design.

D

I'm seeing engineering work at daphne walker, kci and clsi, I'm not seeing land planning work.

D

I'm not seeing a college degree, I'm not seeing a graduate degree. Mr ms miller. Well, mr hackett.

E

Has a copy of his resume in front of himself as well, and I'm happy for him to go through.

E

The projects that he's worked on the company that he works for so, mr hackett, can you just describe.

E

Who you work for your role in that capacity and how long you've been working there and.

E

The projects that you've worked on in carroll county sure, sorry, I can repeat some. I know I.

E

Just strung together a lot of questions for you to remember so I'm happy to oh, it's no problem the.

V

I've been uh I'm president of clsi, it's a local engineering, land planning, surveying consulting.

V

Firm um I've been there uh june 16th will be 35 years. I started uh working prior to that down.

V

In in the towson area, doing from engineering design to planning, I am a land use consultant.

V

Land planner there's really no certification for a land planner. You can be a suit on a certified.

V

Planner but a land use consultant over the years. I've testified in front of courts and boards and.

V

All in several counties around this region, um I've done from planning work. I will say a lot.

V

Of your larger communities from fairhaven, the carroll lutheran village to lorian facilities.

V

I I, as far as I've, testified in front of this board. I didn't list them all.

V

But there's there's a list of some of them um over the years, but it chewed up some more paper.

V

um Mr nelson I'd be happy to revise and say that I'd offer mr hackett as an expert in the area of.

E

Land use design, given what he's just offered mr bill uh chairman bill, I appreciate the fact that.

D

The gentleman has testified before I appreciate the fact that he's worked hard for his career.

D

But the fact of the matter is he's not a licensed engineer. He's not a licensed land planner.

D

uh And I'm going to suspect when he tested before no one raised those objections I have and I've.

E

Also, just clarified that I'm not offering him as an expert in either of those categories.

E

Mr chair, could we have a profit and revised profit of what his testimony is going to be.

E

Mr hackett I'd be happy to if mr chairs, absolutely I'm waiting. Mr hackett is going to very briefly.

E

Testify that he's worked with other clients to develop nursing home uses in the county and he's.

E

Aware of what a nursing, the traditional nursing home model and that he's been present as part of.

E

This hearing and heard all of the characteristics of this use and offer his opinion on whether this.

E

Is more or less intense than a traditional nursing home model more or less? What I'm.

D

Starting to hear tense intense, yes, I'm going to object to that on the basis of lack of expertise.

A

We've accepted him as an expert, not just this board, but previous boards. Over the last lord, only.

A

Knows how many years um as an expert in planning and site development, so based on that and based on.

A

Projects that are here, I'm looking down over lorien healthcare, um a lot of projects here.

A

um Adams, paris, paradise assisted care, there's quite a few projects on here that had to do with.

A

um Care facilities so we'll accept him as an expert witness in the field of planning and.

A

Site development. Thank you, mr chair. Mr hackett, you just went through some, but in the history.

E

Of your career, have you worked with clients to develop nursing traditional nursing homes in the.

E

County in carroll county, that's correct: can you provide a few examples to us, yeah carol, lutheran.

V

Village, I've done a lot of work out there over the years um and fair fairhaven um fairy has got.

V

A component of that for alzheimer's, a dementia unit, copper ridge, little orient facilities.

E

Are you aware that the term nursing home is a defined term in the county code? Yes, I am, were you.

E

Present, and did you hear all of the testimony offered as part of this hearing so far today.

V

Yes, I have and hearing the characteristics of the use in your opinion. Is there anything about this.

E

Use that is more intense than a traditional nursing home that you've worked on objection.

D

Same basis, nursing homes in general or not wait a minute same basis is offering.

D

Yes, sir, I object to this witness often opinion comparing the relative intensity.

D

Of the proposed use to a nursing home that was approved in the year 1990 33 years ago,.

E

The question was about his experience in in projects that he was directly involved with.

A

Of my understanding that is correct. Mr bell, I am not asking mr hackett to state.

E

Anything about the previous bza decision, just nursing homes in general and his experience.

R

Okay, well I'll I'll, allow him to answer the question. Thank you.

V

Nursing homes in general are are not super intense uses, they're uh they're, relatively low for even.

V

Though they, uh some of them are large um by when you look at it from a a size perspective.

V

And and traffic perspective in this situation and the relatively what we're talking about.

V

um The use exists today for a nursing home and we're putting a the facility, that's being proposed.

V

Is as we feel under that realm of nursing home, but has set up to um to treat differently, if you will.

V

I mean these people are dropped off their their visitors are not as as often that kind of thing.

V

um They have nurses and doctors visits and so on. Just like a nursing home would.

V

um Your traditional type and that's why you know we're here today to get the obviously the the.

V

Definition confirmed for this use. The use is still in existence today. um So we're not here about.

V

Whether it's a use but relatively the traffic on these types of uses are are relatively low.

V

And this type would be even less traffic than if it would be a use.

V

um Like your traditional type thing, many more visitors, you don't have to be, you know it.

V

Doesn't have to be scheduled and so on people, mr haggard, when you say that, are you speaking.

E

About this use, are you speaking about a nursing home, a traditional, a traditional nursing, home.

V

When this usually everything's more scheduled as far as drop-offs or any type of visitation,.

E

Those are my only questions, mr hackett nelson. Any further questions. Yes, sir. Okay.

D

Mr hackett, in your 35 years as a land planning consultant, have you had occasion.

D

In carroll county to work on cases where your client has applied for a conditional use.

D

Yes, sir, so you're generally familiar with the requirements in the in the carroll county.

D

Zone's for conditional use- yes, sir- uh and this is not a memory quiz, so if you want to look at.

D

The audience feel free is I'm not testing your memory, but I think you'll recognize these words.

D

When I read them to you but section 158.133g is the standard conditional use set of requirements.

D

For carroll county, is it not I'm, mr nelson, if you'll give me a second okay, it's 158.133.

D

All right so in your work as a land planning consultant for these past three decades in.

D

Carroll county you've told your clients, if you're going to apply for conditional.

D

Use we need to prove conformance with each of these requirements.

D

Correct all right and you've, probably you might have used different words, but you.

D

Probably conveyed the message to your client: look when we're in front of the bza. We need to be able.

D

To describe this use, what's going to happen on this site, how many workers, how many drivers, what's.

D

Going to go on there and you got to talk to and and we need to talk to the board of bza about the.

D

Neighborhood around the proposed use, because those are the central themes of a content conditional.

D

Use inquiry you've done that, have you not yes, sir? I have all right and then the client says.

D

Well, what do we need to prove? He said? Well I'll, tell you what you need to prove, because the code tells us in precise terms, item one the number of people residing or working in the immediate area.

D

Tell me, mr hackett, how many people were working uh in the nursing home in 1990 when it was approved.

D

Objection have no idea, I have no idea, that's right all right and you then then the client.

D

Says all right: what's the next thing I got to think about it's easy. We go to code.

D

We've got to show that this won't adversely affect the ordinary growth of a community.

D

Coach says that doesn't it yes, sir, it does all right tell us how this community has changed since.

D

The year 1990. objection, none of mr hackett's testimony was related to these characters or.

E

To this section of the code that he's being questioned on, nor did he ever hold himself out.

E

As having reviewed this for the initial approval back in 1990., my point- I'm sorry I didn't mean.

D

To speak, winless no go ahead. Your point is what my point is. The witness has conveyed the theme.

D

Based on his 30 years of work as a land planning consultant that the.

D

Nursing home that the proposed use the drug rehab facility is no more intense than a nursing home.

D

And the example he gave was traffic you'll recall, see there won't be much traffic.

D

Well, there are eight criteria in the zoning ordinance for a special conditional use program.

D

Only one of which addresses traffic there's seven others. So the traffic, the comparison of traffic.

D

Is interesting.

D

What 1 8 of the analysis- and I want to bring out the I'm establishing the theme to the board this.

D

Witness has no knowledge about the other, seven factors that that and therefore his opinion that.

D

This proposed drug rehab facility level, 3.5, is no more intense than a nursing home is uh uh baseless.

F

Is what baseless, but my my question is he's not saying he's not advocating.

A

For the conditional use that the conditional use is already there, it stays with the property.

D

Right but he's saying that this proposed use is the same or no less, no more intense than the.

D

Original conditional use and I'm establishing the theme, if it please the board that he has no facts.

D

To back that up, he doesn't know how many people were working there, for example in 1990. How does.

D

He compare this use in the year 2000, but, mr nelson, what I'm trying to say is the conditional use that.

A

Was granted in 1990 we're not here to discuss that that was granted in 1990? Mr tutorial was.

A

The chairman of the board, and when that was that that conditional use stays with that. We're not.

A

Here to get an additional conditional use, we're getting we're getting a request for an affirmation.

A

That that this conditional use is the is consistent with the conditional use.

A

That was granted in 1990.. Well, that's the intensity, we're not looking at the intensity.

A

We're looking at the use, okay and and then the conditional use of a nursing facility.

A

um It doesn't matter whether it's three beds or whether it's a hundred beds and.

A

Absence of a traffic study that says it would be a detriment to the community.

A

How are you going to define the how? How is anybody going to define the intensity difference.

D

Well, of course, the point I made at the outset of the syrian was there should be no live.

D

Testimony it was a purely legal argument for precisely the reasons the chair just outlined.

D

That's the point I made to the board to you, sir, and my adversary said no. We need testimony.

D

And then my adversary called a series of witnesses and the theme of the applicant's case.

D

Is that this proposed use, it should be treated as a nursing home and one of the.

D

Reasons should be treated as a nursing home is that it's no more intense than a nursing home.

D

And my point, sir, is that all conditional use applications are fact-based analyzes. You got.

D

To look at the use and you've got to look at the neighborhood around it, and the the tribunal needs.

D

To make a determination, are there any especially adverse effects from this conditional use at this.

D

Particular location right, that's the law, we all know it right and, and that was done 33 years ago,.

D

So my opening argument is this: is a legal argument should be no testimony? I've lost that argument.

D

Right I've made it, I lost it and now I'm saying okay, if you're going to accept this evidence on.

D

This proposed use, you can't just take, look at only the traffic and say this use is no more.

D

uh Intense than the nursing home from 33 years ago, you can't just accept platitudes from professional.

D

Witnesses that this is the same, it's not the same right. It's a level three high intensity level, 3.5.

D

And the witnesses don't know how many workers there were 33 years ago, when this project was.

D

Approved so if you're going to reject my argument that it's a legal argument.

D

Only and allow the evidence to come in from the apple you've got to allow my clients to present.

D

A refutation of what they're saying this use is more intense. It's a different use.

A

I don't want to offer testimony I'll do that in my summations, but my answer is: there's a certain.

A

Distortion there that will address at the end. I don't want to be accused of giving testimony.

A

So, mr, so what was your question again, mr nelson to mr hackett.

D

I directed him to the second criteria for the conditional use requirement, which is they have to.

D

Show there's no adverse effect on the or adverse effect on the orderly growth of a community. That's.

D

What the second requirement for conditional use- and my question was: can he describe for this panel.

D

This board the changes in this community since 1990 when this conditional use was first approved.

A

Mr hackett and I will direct you as I have earlier in the day and earlier in.

A

This case, if you do not know the answer of that question, please say state that.

E

Mr bale, I'm I'm still processing my thoughts here, but my the basis of my objection to that.

E

Question is not the end portion of the question. It's the comparison of it to presumed facts in.

E

Case three, four, four one which we don't have, what mr nelson's pointing out are certain.

E

Things that perhaps he could have appealed case three four, four one when that was decided, but.

E

That's not the issue before us, so I did not ask mr hackett to compare the intensity of any of these.

E

Characteristics to 1990, I asked him to compare them to the other nursing home projects that.

E

He has worked on and been familiar with, because all we have before us is that this property was.

E

Approved for a nursing home, so that's what I've asked him. So that's that's the basis.

E

Of my objection, I don't object to him answering the question, but I don't think it's appropriate.

A

Issues at this location to the anticipated use of the property. If this is approved.

E

No it's it's. Mr hackett is offering testimony on his experience of other.

C

Traditional nursing homes, compared to what he's heard, testified as part of.

E

This use, okay. He was not involved in that I'll. Absolutely allow that. Yes, thank you.

K

Answer, yes, the what I can tell you is is in 1990, this plan and project was approved by a.

V

Board of zoning appeals for 68 bets those 68 beds operated to approximately about.

V

A year ago or whatever, so it's not really 1990 it's up to about a year ago there was a.

V

Functioning site and now we're here to sit there and try to get confirmed that this type of of.

V

Health care, or whatever you want to call it, is similar to a nursing home offering it my testimony.

V

That I said about the traffic was, is real, simple. It's most of these people do not drive to the.

V

Site or off the site, as far as the the people that are there, uh the the customers or clients.

V

They don't get as many visitors as a traditional nursing home. Therefore, I believe that kind of.

V

Stuff is it's a little less intense use inside the building? Where he's talking about 3.5 is the level.

V

Of care, that's what I'm hearing somebody referred to as a higher intensity. Well, I mean you have.

V

Other uses of copper ridge, dementia, alzheimer's, those people- sorry to say my mom- died of that they.

V

That sometimes they get angry, sometimes they wander they sneak outside. I mean it's a fact.

V

um So, and that's what we're here today for is the confirmation.

V

um These items as a conditional use, if I were here, trying to get a conditional use, approved.

V

Which we're not they're the titan he's he's spot on. That's that's what we we go by those items.

V

Well, that's not what we're here for today, I'm answering questions.

V

All right, yeah, all right, mr nelson.

D

So I understand you just say, mr hackett, that a condition used for a nursing home was approved.

D

In 1990 and this proposed use for the drug rehab facility level, 3.5 is a nursing home.

V

That's correct all right and you will agree: will you not that back in 1990 when this.

D

Conditional use was approved for the nursing home. The board found that there that this nursing home.

D

Would not adversely affect the property values of the houses in the neighborhood.

E

Hackett, a copy of applicants exhibit one which is the written decision in.

E

That case for his reference in answering that question.

E

Marty, that's just the first pages. I'm sorry, it's just the first page is that decision.

V

I don't see any reference to all right, but it was a requirement in the ordinance if they.

D

Found approval the conditional use they would have had to have found conformance with that.

D

Requirement would they not have objection? I don't know that that's mr hackett's.

E

Area to answer that yeah, if you don't know the answer, mr hackett, don't that's all I have this.

D

Witness thank you there's mill already. I have no follow-up. Thank you, mr chair. Okay. Anyone from the.

A

Audience have any questions of mr hackett's testimony. That is not a client of mr nelson's.

A

Board members: oh wait a minute.

A

Please please come to yes.

A

1306 buckhorn road property manager for the government.

S

I just want to know are: are you paid for your testimony? Absolutely, I hope so. Okay,.

S

Thank you. Thank you.

A

Any other questions.

A

Mr grove right yeah, just justin grove, 5272 frieda road um of the projects that you've.

L

Done in carroll county have any of those been for conditional uses in an agriculture area.

L

Like this, one is, is currently approved for.

V

We've done several several type of assistive care: nursing, home, rehabs, centers, yes, but have.

L

They been in agricultural agriculture areas, okay, um well, accepting okay. um Last question: have.

L

Any other projects you've done in carroll county, been for a drug addiction facility.

V

We're currently working on another one: okay,.

A

Any other questions.

A

Very good board members questions of mr hackett's testimony.

A

No questions very good. Thank you, mr hackett. Thank you.

E

Thank you marty. That concludes the presentation of my testimony, mr chair, okay, mr nelson would.

A

You like to call your first witness I'd like to make a motion to dismiss the application.

D

On what grounds that the application was for a.

D

Level 3.1 clinically managed low-intensity residential service use 3.1. That's in the.

D

Application and the testimony today was uh that it's a 3.5, the evidence in the record is, is uh in.

D

Conflict with the application and we prepared for a level 3.1 case, there was no evidence presented.

D

On a level 3.1, the only evidence was on a level 3.5 and for those reasons we seek a dismissal of.

D

The application mr chair smell, let me gather my papers here, real quick on march 23rd, 2023.

E

I submitted an amended explanation of request that says: applicant requests, affirmation and potential.

E

Modification of bza cases 2782 and 3441 to confirm that a residential addiction service facility is.

E

Permitted under the aforementioned approvals for our nursing home at the location described in.

E

This application and shown on the attached site plan additionally, that is how this was publicly.

E

Advertised using that language, I would advise the board that uh you can't rule on a motion to.

B

Dismiss that's a mistake. What what this board has to do under the rules and procedures is to listen.

B

To all the testimony and evidence and then make a decision, we we can't take, you can't uh take.

B

Motions to the smiths or you know you have to hit all the evidence and then make a decision. Okay, so.

A

So the request is, is denied so, mr nelson, would you like to call your first witness? Yes, mr chairman,.

D

There's a commissioner here who wishes to testify. There were a few of my citizens.

D

Who wish to testify? I have provided a list typed list to counsel for the.

D

Applicant I'd like to give a copy of a type list of my clients to the board and.

D

I do that now just so that there's a record of who my clients are yes,.

B

Yeah make this an exhibit. Mr dixon.

D

That exhibit mr chair is simply to have a formal record of who my clients are, in this case, each of.

D

My clients has authorized me to tell the board that they oppose the application. My goal is to.

D

Call just a few citizens to testify not each of the 125 citizens, but everybody on that list is my.

D

Client and everyone is opposed to this application, but with the chair's permission, I understand that.

D

Commissioner, garen is here and wishes to testify, he's not my client, but it's a courtesy to him.

D

I would ask the board to permit him to address the board now. Mr chair preliminarily, just before.

E

Testimony at least one of these people named on here, independently cross-examined, so I believe mr.

E

Nelson had agreed to strike them. I just wanted to from the list of those he represents. I just.

E

Wanted to make sure that that made it too that's correct the um uh there's one witness.

D

It should be stricken from that list who who spoke. I I need to confirm who that is.

D

But there's somebody uh and I can speak with council at the next break and but yes, we'll.

D

Take one name off that list: that was my oversight, which I apologize. I believe there were two, but I'm.

E

Sure we can communicate we'll talk about if there are two there too. Okay yeah we'll work that out.

D

Very good, commissioner, before I speak, may I approach the das and present some information.

W

Regarding traffic issues, yes, you want to want to go ahead and um hand that, to mr.

A

Dixon and we'll.

A

We'll enter that into evidence.

W

I'll be brief, my name is michael garan g-u-e-r-I-n. I reside at 303 bridle wreath way: mount airy.

W

Maryland, uh I'm here as a citizen, and I'm also here as the district four county commissioner.

W

Representative of these, these fine people here, uh I'm here in opposition of this application,.

W

Because I feel very strongly having lived in carroll county since 1984 and knowing that area.

W

Well that it is incompatible with that particular neighborhood, and I want to address the issue with.

W

Traffic before you you'll see a traffic memorandum back from 2008.. There was an issue back in 2008.

W

For those of you familiar with chrome gold park, it's a wonderful park, but we can't use all the.

W

Fields there, because back in 2008, we decided to use the fields. We went to the mount airy trans.

W

Maryland transportation department and they did a traffic study and said we couldn't use those.

W

Fields at krim gold park, because the area of route 94 from crim gold to 26 is too crowded. That was in.

W

2008, I would direct your eyes to number three on this particular memorandum where it says before.

W

Anything happens at crim gold to increase usage and talk about improving site. I need.

W

To improve my site, improve site distance at the intersection of woodbine road and buckhorn road.

W

So my concern here is a traffic concern. Obviously I have other concerns as well. You've had people.

W

Sitting here since 11 o'clock, people that were supposed to be in work, probably I think there.

W

Were about 70 people here when this meeting started? God bless you all for being here. I.

W

Appreciate the work the commission does, but um I I had. I would just uh ask you to I know: there's some.

W

Human factors involved in this debate some serious human factors, and we all have empathy for people.

W

You know dealing with that that particular uh situation. It's not uncommon in this world today.

W

We're all affected by it in many ways, but I would ask you just to include the feelings.

W

And thoughts of these people sitting here as well, because I think they matter as well, so thank you.

A

Any questions of his testimony, ms miller.

A

um Commissioner you're supposed to stay at the microphone is this your first bza hearing.

W

I have learned a run from microphones since december. I just want you to know.

A

I I go back a long ways with the commissioner. We were on the planning and zoning commission.

A

20 some years ago, I guess we were both young men, then.

X

Ms miller, you have any questions just a few and follow up to the memorandum. Commissioner,.

E

Gearen, I'm just curious if you can provide some more context to this in terms of it was.

E

This associated with the site plan was this: were these mitigation measures implemented any just any.

E

Additional context yeah and my apologies for not having that with me. It's a hundred and ten page.

W

Document so I will go ahead and grab that and I will make sure you get that ma'am. I would have.

W

Liked to have brought that with me, but I couldn't quite get my hands on it, but I just I just it.

W

Just was an illustration that there is I, in my personal view, a traffic element to this debate.

A

Board members, any questions of the commissioner.

A

Okay, thank you. Can I sit down now? Yes, thank you. You can take a seat.

A

Okay, mr nelson, mr chairman, I'll defer to the the board's preference here. I know the.

D

Different tribunals have different practices with respect to petitions.

D

But I have in my hand, a petition that was prepared right, some of my clients. It's got names and.

D

Signatures and addresses of of people who were opposed to the application, uh sometimes tribunal.

D

Say our practice is to accept such a petition. Sometimes we will accept. We can accept that end.

A

Evidence, so if you, if you hand that to mr dixon and I I only have one copy that, um may I see it.

E

Pictures of these mountains.

E

And I will object to that, exhibit being entered. There are several signatures on.

E

There that do not have any addresses or names printed at the at the back of that petition.

E

So there's no ability to ascertain whether those people are located anywhere near this.

E

Site or not, I I do not object to mr nelson, as we had previously discussed his list of.

E

The clients that he represents and those addresses instead of calling each of those.

E

People individually, but that petition does not contain enough identifying information for me to.

E

Make any statement on whether those people are truly impacted by this type of request or not.

A

We will go ahead and accept the the petition with the noted objections. Thank you.

R

Go ahead, go ahead and sit just a few of you testify. A few told me you wanted to testify.

D

So, let's start with you, sir.

D

Foreign address and tell us whether you support or oppose this project, and why, good afternoon.

P

My name is ben white, my address is 5175 stone, house, village court and no, it does not fit on.

P

The street sign- and I am here in opposition of this acceptance- of a residential drug treatment.

P

Facility being classified as a nursing home, I oppose it due to safety reasons.

P

In my own personal experience, I have firsthand knowledge of drug treatment centers.

P

And I know that those residents- and I believe you testified to this- have the ability to leave.

P

If they so choose, and unlike nursing homes, the people at drug rehabilitation, centers.

P

Are ambulatory they can and will leave if they choose to do so. The reason I think it's a safety.

P

Issue is because on buckhorn road and on all the roads connected to buckhorn, there are no.

P

Sidewalks there are no shoulders. There is nothing that protects a pedestrian from being hit by a car.

P

And if these people do not have cars when they enter the facility and if they choose to leave.

P

By walking out a door which was testified that the doors are open, they have to you, know egress.

P

Is imperative they have to be able to open the doors and leave the building, so people.

P

Could leave the building at any time? I also wanted to point out that my understanding.

P

According to asam, a level 3.5 facility services are designed for people with serious psychological.

P

Or social issues who need 24-hour oversight and are at risk of imminent harm? That's the definition.

P

Of a 3.5 facility according to asam, so if these people have serious psychological or social issues,.

P

And are at risk of imminent harm and they have the ability to leave the facility at their will.

P

Then, are they not a risk to themselves on a road and in a neighborhood that is not designed.

P

At all for pedestrian traffic, so I'm concerned about not only the safety of our neighborhood.

P

But the safety of the people who would be in that facility as well in a typical res in a.

P

Typical nursing home by a common definition, those people are not typically ambulatory.

P

But in a drug rehab facility they certainly are. Thank you. Wait a minute stay. There.

A

Ms miller, do you have any questions of mr white's testimony.

E

Mr white, just one quick question for you: are you familiar? You said that you had some.

E

Experience with these types of facilities, are you familiar with any in carroll county? Yes, are you.

E

Familiar with any having safety issues that have arisen in carroll county, no, that's all. Thank you.

A

Board members, any questions of mr white's testimony go back to the microphone you're not dismissed.

A

Board members, any questions, no questions. Okay, mr white, you can take a seat. Mr nelson.

X

My name is michael lawson, I'm 1545 buckhorn road sykesville maryland. I'm a small business owner.

X

um I've I've prepared remarks um I'm here to discuss why it's inappropriate to define an.

X

Addiction treatment facility as a nursing home to bypass zoning regulations, especially when it's on.

X

Agricultural land next to residential areas, defining an addiction treatment facility as.

X

A nursing home is like changing the label on a product just as relabeling a landfill as a park.

X

Or brothel as a health clinic to bypass zoning regulations would be misleading and potentially.

X

Dangerous defining an addiction treatment facility as a nursing home to bypass zoning regulations.

X

Is misleading and potentially harmful to the community addiction, treatment facilities, nursing.

X

Homes are fundamentally different in their purpose and function, while nursing homes specialize.

X

Medical care and support the elderly individuals who need constant attention, addiction, treatment.

X

Facilities offer specialized cared individuals suffering with substance, abuse, disorder.

X

Therefore, it's an accurate and misleading to classify an addiction treatment facility as.

X

A nursing home allowing an addiction treatment facility to operate on agricultural land next to.

X

Residential areas could undermine the integrity of zoning regulations, lead to a loss in confidence in.

X

The zoning process, it could also open the door to other commercial activities that may not be.

X

Suitable for the area leading to a decline in the quality of life of residents. Furthermore, calling.

X

And addiction, treatment facility and nursing home to bypass the zoning regulations would be.

X

Similar to calling a nightclub, a restaurant or again a brothela health clinic, it's misleading.

X

And potentially harmful to the community and the purpose of these functions are these businesses.

X

Are fundamentally different and I think we're all in on some level completely aware of that.

X

The gentleman that was up here that broke his leg would not have gone to a drug rehab facility to.

X

Help his leg, because that's not what nursing homes do when each of you retire and are old.

X

And may need to go to a nursing home you're not going to go to a drug rehab. They are fundamentally.

X

Different things and I've made a slight list here: landfill as a park, a casino as a community center.

X

Factory as a residential building, a nightclub as a restaurant, a car dealership is a parking garage.

X

And you can go on and on, if you're, just trying to classify something to sort of scoot in you.

X

Could come up with all kinds of definitions if I bought the theater on main street in westminster,.

X

And wanted to put a strip club in it. Is it no less entertaining than it is right now it's this! It's.

X

Not the same thing, they're fundamentally different on their face and that's that's all. I have.

A

Ms miller, do you have any questions of mr lawson's testimony? I do not thank you, mr chair.

E

R

Thank you. Thank you.

D

Recall, patrick and then a noun could he come to the bench because I'm going.

D

To table I'm going to show them some exhibits: okay,.

D

Mr dixon, could I have a copy that and it's it's a photograph of the house page two of six okay.

D

Oh, you want yours.

N

D

Tell the board your name and address please hello.

Y

My name is patrick dinenna. My address is 1443 buckhorn road sykesville maryland.

Y

21784 now, and can you spell for the record your last name, the I n e n n, a.

Y

Thank you, mr suzanna.

D

How far is your residence from the.

D

Existing nursing home the structure and the proposed drug rehab facility 142 feet now.

D

Produce into evidence exhibit two a packet of six photographs.

D

Which the board has in front of it now.

D

And I asked the applicant to look at the page two that exhibit page two of six.

D

And I asked him whether there was a structure of that photograph and he was unclear what I.

D

Meant by the word structure, so I said: is there a building there? He said? Yes, I see the building.

D

And then I circled the building in blue ink, and I asked him- is that building part.

D

Of the existing nursing home- and he said yes, what is that? Building that.

D

Circled, that's within my uh uh circle that I drew there. That, sir, is my home.

D

D

Just then, I'm going to show you a.

D

Copy of an arrow photograph.

D

D

What was that era photograph of? Well, I see I see two call-outs. I.

Y

See, subject: property outlined in red and krem gold park outlined in green.

Y

B

um Opposition exhibit five.

D

5 for identification.

D

Of the septic property and surrounding land, including the park and your property, yes, sir,.

Y

It is I'd like to move into evidence, exhibit five, please and we'll accept that into evidence.

D

Describe to identify that document please just generally remains terms of layman's terms. It.

Y

Looks like the various plots or properties in in our neighborhood all right, so you can see the.

D

Subject: property there and you can see where your property is, for example. Yes, sir, at this.

D

Time, I'd like to move into evidence, opposition exhibit six and we'll accept that into evidence.

D

Mr jenner, this is this: your opportunity to share with the board.

D

Whether you support or oppose a subject application and if so, why.

Y

Oh, my goodness, I absolutely oppose it.

Y

And that's that's an interesting question. Why.

Y

I hadn't thought about that, but um let me just say on on the record: I.

Y

Have a sympathy for people suffering from medical conditions and drug addictions.

Y

And to me this is not what this issue is about to me. It's words have meaning.

Y

And the conditional use of this property across the street from me was a nursing home.

Y

And you know, look I I was an officer in the maryland army national guard. I was vice.

Y

President and then president of the winfield recreation council, we oversaw criminal park.

Y

And I just I mean I just tell you that, because I'm a big believer in.

Y

Following the rules- and um you know to me if they were the same thing, they'd be.

Y

Called the same thing, but we're using two different names: they're different.

Y

Did I answer your question? Well, tell us, uh uh can you can you give us a sense for the.

D

Proximity of the very nearby properties to the uh rehab facility. Thank you. Yes,.

Y

So if I, if I'm staring out my front window like I'm looking at mr bale, that's where the nursing.

Y

Home is, and immediately to the left is another residence. I want to say it's 1502 buckhorn road.

Y

And that property, that residential property is 71 feet from the structure of the nursing home.

Y

As I already and it's my understanding, you know you know, I follow the rules. Minimum.

Y

Distance for the nursing home should be 200., I'm directly across the street, from the nursing home.

Y

On three plus acres- and you know my interpretation- understanding of the law is minimum distance.

Y

Of 300 feet and as I already mentioned, I'm 142 feet and then, as I look at this map to the right.

Y

Is another dwelling, and uh it's also on three plus acres.

Y

And its distance is 173 feet from the nursing home.

Y

And then I I would like to just mention to the immediate left, the property, the 15 1502 buckhorn.

Y

They can't be here they traveled to uh out of.

Y

State for a funeral, but they have three young children. I I have five children.

Y

And then to the right of the of the nursing home as a property with uh four children.

D

So why are you.

Y

um Well from yeah, since mr nelson asked it.

Y

um It's a safety concern. We I've heard testimony where, frankly, people can voluntarily leave the.

Y

Proposed facility- I I I'm, you know, use I'm right, I'm right there. Then I've been there for 30 years.

Y

And I've spent concern when I moved in my property was it was the worst property on the road and I've.

Y

Been working over 30 years to improve it, and why am I telling you that I guess for safety reasons.

Y

um I'm concerned, why did I tell you that, for for the for the for my family and the neighbors.

D

A

Ms miller, do you have any questions just a few good afternoon, mr denenna, um I am looking at.

E

What was marked as um your exhibit six, I believe you still have a copy of that in front of you.

I

Yes, ma'am, can you just? Is there any reason that some properties are blue on there.

E

Like are they being called out for a specific reason, or was that I don't know? Okay, I'm I'm.

E

Just curious, if you want, I could say it on the record if you want me to, but we my office.

D

Did that but okay, I was just curious if that was any part of what was being shown on here.

E

Those being of special importance or something no, that's for some of our clients live okay,.

E

um Mr dinetta, you just spoke to some of what you believe: the required setbacks.

E

For the county are for uses, are you citing to something specific, the code or a specific.

E

Reference that you found, I want to say um again, I I don't know the official language.

Y

But 158.040 talks about distances: okay, okay and it to me. It makes sense that you wouldn't.

Y

Want to rifle range right next to a school you'd want x, amount of distance, so.

Y

Those things are important. That's why I brought it brought it up. Are you aware whether a nursing.

E

Home is a use, that's required. That's subject to 158.040. I am my understanding of that is it. It is.

Y

So, depending on the use, you guys know this, I'm sure that, depending on what the, what conditional.

Y

Use is, in effect the the distances go up. I use the shortest distances because I didn't want to.

Y

Misinterpret the regulation I understand where you're coming from mr dunnana I'll address it.

E

In my closing, but I think it's a I, I think maybe you're just misreading that section of.

E

The code, but um that's fine- I you're not holding yourself out as a zoning expert.

E

So I'm not I'm not going to hold it against you by any standards. um If I may thank you.

Y

um I I have uh conservation and I have a I have a conditional use. We run a kennel on.

Y

That property- and I remember I- had to maintain x amount of distance from my.

Y

Neighbors, so that's why, yes, you probably were subject to distance requirements as part of.

E

That but I appreciate that clarification. Thank you. I have no further questions of mr denenna.

A

Any questions from the board on his testimony very good. Thank you.

D

F

Let me embarrassed you if I fell asleep mr eater here next.

D

Don't testify from the microphone.

D

What's your name address, and this is the opportunity to tell the bull whether you.

D

Support or oppose application, and spell for the record your last name, sir. My last name is.

N

Ader a-d-e-r david, I live at 5241 stonebridge way and I am retired. My whole issue is: I'm opposed my.

N

Whole issue is the use and for me it's apples and oranges. We're not talking. Can you step a little.

A

Bit closer to the microphone, we're not talking about somebody who is getting out of the hospital.

N

And convalescing we're not talking about somebody with a broken leg, we're not talking about somebody.

N

Who's got dementia and they're in a in a nursing home, we're talking about a drug rehab center.

N

Servicing people with addictions and in this case some pretty severe addictions.

N

So, for me the issue is use and we've talked about, is it court ordered or is it voluntary admissions.

N

And the gentleman says it's voluntary admissions too, and people we can't he's in his own words.

N

It's not a prison. We can't keep people there. If somebody wants to leave, they could leave at any.

N

Time, whether they choose to go through their checkout process or not they're free to leave.

N

Now, my history, it was a lifetime ago, I'll tell you that is I'm a former policeman.

N

In howard county, [music] I can't tell you how many times that I was called to find.

N

People who walked away from taylor, manor hospital people who were had psychological issues, people.

N

Who had addictions? How many times I've had to find people from springfield hospital that walked away.

N

These were closed facilities, controlled facilities and they walked away at all hours of the day.

N

I will tell you this about people with severe addictions, and this isn't news for anybody.

N

People who are unemployed or who are underemployed.

N

Who have severe addictions? Severe drug addictions need to be able to feed their addictions somehow.

N

And if they can walk away they're going to walk away a lot of times, I had to chase them down.

N

Those people have to find a way to make to get money to feed their addictions.

N

And how do they do that? I tell you, because I was also a detective in howard, county.

N

And I investigated literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of breaking and enterings.

N

At all hours of the day, a lot of times during the middle of the day.

N

Most of the time, during the day when both parents, both property owners, the.

N

Owners of the property they needed, two incomes be able to pay their mortgage and.

N

A lot of times there was nobody left in the community. Nobody left on the cul-de-sac, ings.

N

And so people who had these addictions would walk away from facilities or would come into the to the.

N

Neighborhoods and they would break into the houses and they would steal the property of other people.

N

And they would take that property and they would go to a local fence.

N

And basically sell that property and get money to buy their trucks. My concern is the use of.

N

This property: it is a drug rehab center for level three chronic severe addictions.

N

They can walk away at any time, I'm concerned about that. That's my concern.

N

That's why I'm opposed to it. It's not somebody getting out of the hospital.

N

It's not for dementia, if somebody with an addiction.

N

That's what we're concerned about here! That's what this neighborhood's concerned about.

N

That's where I am.

A

Ms miller, any questions I just have one question of mr eater, mr.

E

Ader, do you have any familiarity with uh facilities that are owned or operated by.

E

Mr stempler, I have no knowledge of any mr stifler's facilities.

A

Okay board members, any questions of mr raiders testimony. Thank you, sir. Mr nelson.

A

One moment any other citizens. You wish to testify understand that I've sold the board.

D

I've introduced into the record the names and addresses of all my clients. The board understands.

D

That each of you is opposed to this application. But if there's anyone who wants to speak.

D

In addition to that, this is your opportunity. There's one gentleman, the back.

A

um No, no you this is. This is an opportunity for your.

A

Own testimony, okay, that's fine! That's fine! I think we can be.

S

I thought you'd get to know me already: b-e-j-u-n-e 1306, buckhorn road, um a property manager for the.

S

Federal government, so I think we've all got to be honest with ourselves and now 30 years ago,.

S

If they came for the board and said hey, we wanted to open a drug rehabilitation center where we'd.

S

Have addicts addicted to substances like fentanyl meth, right they and we knew what we know. What the.

S

Answer would be, we have to ask ourselves that and then two what they're making their case on.

S

And I've been here before I've been a chairman of a planning commission and I've seen them trying.

S

To make a square peg fit in a round hole by fit making that definition fit. So what.

S

um The neighborhood's attorney said was well aged. Well then, the other attorney said: well, it's the.

S

Ore, the covalescence well, the definition of that is recovery or health and strength.

S

After the disease and that's by the webster definition, at least, she was citing webster.

S

And, or between the substances of a disease, that's after the disease and the complete restoration of.

S

Health, so this is after covalescence, is after they've, been treated they're going there to get.

S

Treatment so make no mistake, it doesn't fit. You can't make that definition. Work.

S

And then, as a planning commissioner, in the back of my head at all times, you have to be aware of.

S

What you do your decisions are anti could possibly hand, tie the town and future planning commissions.

S

So it sets precedence. So if you say well, a drug rehabilitation program fits under the definition.

S

Of a nursing home, you just said well any nursing home here. A lot of nursing homes are for-profit.

S

If it's, if it's more profitable, run a drug rehabilitation center than a.

S

Nursing center, what are you going to see more of, and you can't stand on it anymore,.

S

Right you set precedent. You set the rule for years to come. That will hand tie the planning.

S

Commission and the town so I'd like you to think about that before you make your decision there's.

S

There's severe consequences. Thank you for your time, ms miller. Wait wait a minute wait! A minute.

A

That's your third time to the microphone and you forgot the rules. Okay, ms miller, do you have any.

E

Questions just one brief, mr bajoon, um you just talked to the board about the legal precedent.

E

Set by their cases, do you have any legal basis for telling them that this that their decision.

E

Set a legal precedent, yeah, well my experience as a planning, commissioner, and we always had a.

S

We always had legal counsel, so we were always made aware our decisions had lasting impacts.

S

And could be brought up in litigations in the future and you recognize it planning commission.

E

Is different than the board of zoning appeals correct either way it can be brought up in.

S

Litigation, I do recognize the difference- okay, but but it can and will be held against you if, if need.

S

Be we're on record and, and that decision will last forever that you that impossibly that you.

S

Determined that a drug rehabilitation center um fits within the nursing home definition.

S

So that could be used. I mean you, wouldn't have a leg to stand on after that. So.

S

So I appreciate the the severity of this decision. I appreciate your your opinion on that. I would.

E

Legally, disagree with you, but that's okay. I appreciate your opinion on that. Thank you. Okay,.

E

Board members any questions: okay, now you can get all right. I won't be back, don't make that promise.

C

Hi, I'm dory walden 1302 buckhorn road spell for the record. Your last name, walden w-a-l-d-e-n,.

R

Okay, go ahead. um I I am obviously opposing this. I am six house fronts away from this facility.

C

Through the woods is a direct link, um you know to my house, um I have four kids. I have one that.

C

Gets off the bus by himself, it was kind of a latchkey situation, but why we're getting home.

C

And going to work between me and my husband and my older child, and I don't want to have to start.

C

Worrying that someone decided to walk out of the drug facility and needs to break into somewhere.

C

Close because I am close, I have a direct link to this addiction. My brother was addicted for years.

C

And has been sober 12 years he got the help he needed amazing he's. You know. I know that it can.

C

Be done, but I also know that every single person in the facility with him when he got sober, is dead.

C

He is the only one out of his whole group that lived. He is very involved in aaa and n a, and I.

C

I know the statistics of these facilities that it's sad, the majority don't come out sober the.

C

Majority come out, they might walk out of the door sober, but they go right back to it and that's just.

C

The sad facts- and I don't I- I believe that we need more many more of these facilities, but they.

C

Don't need to be in a residential neighborhood, they need to be in a commercial environment, a.

C

Hospital environment there are so many retail spaces available in carroll county that sit.

C

Empty all of us drive by them all the time. There are so many places that this could go. It doesn't.

C

Need to go on our little sleepy street that could very well turn everything around for us.

C

Okay, ms miller, any questions I do not have any follow-up. Thank you board. Members. Okay, thank you.

D

A

Okay, anyone that's not represented by mr nelson. Do you want to make any comments.

A

Okay, presentation of testimony and evidence is now closed. I'm sorry, I have to interject.

E

Because I have the opportunity to offer rebuttal: yes go ahead.

A

Didn't I didn't see you get my attention, so it's okay.

R

Okay, we'll go ahead and, after her rebuttal, we're going to take about a five minute break. Would.

E

You prefer to I'm fine if the board would go ahead, go ahead and do the rebuttal. Okay,.

E

Not gonna be an hour, is it.

E

I'm going to call uh robbie back to testify robbie. Can you please uh introduce yourselves and state.

E

Your name and address again for this board: robbie stumpler s, t e m p, l e r, 400 redland court, owings.

G

Mills maryland 21117, mr stempler, you heard a lot of testimony just now, but we're going to.

E

Go through it a little bit um from mr white, you heard some testimony about the doors being open.

E

And the potential safety risk thereof, why do those doors? Why does the front door need to remain open.

E

Why do you have to keep it open? Because this isn't a gel and.

G

I mean open, it's not open, it has to be unlocked um right. I'm sorry, I should have said unlocked.

E

Because this is imprisonment, these are people that want help and are willing to get help.

E

Would it pose a fire safety risk if that were locked? Yes,.

E

You also heard mr white speak about the risk of imminent harm. um I think he was mentioning the 3.5.

E

Service characteristics when he talked about that is that risk of imminent harm of self or of others.

G

No, it was a complete mischaracterization. um What he was describing would have, you know been someone.

G

That would need to be. um You know in a high intensity, psych ward uh against their own.

G

Admitted against their own willingness.

E

You heard some testimony from mr david adder, who I believe said he was at howard, county.

E

Former former howard county police and his experience in being called for people who walk.

E

Away from certain types of facilities is that, in a situation that you've ever had to deal with at any.

E

Of your facilities, I mean first, thank you. You know, mr I'd ever think you said you were a policeman in.

G

Howard county- um and I think this is kind of the bigger issue that we deal with right now,.

G

um Definitely in maryland, being like the fourth most overdoses in the country.

G

um But more so in the country that you know what was described was how it was 30 plus years ago.

G

um Where these addicts were, you know, criminals and we're gonna, rob and we're gonna steal. What we're.

G

Dealing with today is the opioid epidemic, we're dealing with a mental health crisis. There's no.

G

Discrimination, everyone has a one-to-one connection somehow with someone that's.

G

Affected by this disease and and this whole idea that addicts or these criminals that are going to.

G

Break into your home and rob you and do whatever is, is, in my humble opinion, the the problem with.

G

What we're dealing with right now to try to solve this epidemic? I mean this is an epidemic.

G

um I went off a little bit on a tangent, but I hope that uh answered your question. It did and my next.

E

Question was, um you know, you've spoken to your experience in operating these types of facilities.

E

But can you again confirm for the board whether you've had any safety concerns in community.

E

Settings at these types of facilities- I have not in my any of my facilities now those are my only.

E

Rebuttal questions, mr nelson, any cross-examine. I have nothing. Okay, we're gonna, take about a.

A

Five minute break and at that point we'll come back for some age, I'm going to leave testimony.

A

Open in case there's anything else and then and then we'll go right to summations. Okay, thank you.

A

A

A

Okay, one last chance: both councils no more witnesses, none.

E

None okay: presentation of testimony in evidence is now closed in some.

A

Nations are in order, miss miller. You get to go first, it's your chair.

E

With this board's indulgence, I'll take one second to get my papers, mr nelson, then, to to let you know.

A

The procedure you'll go after her and then she'll have the opportunity to rebut okay I'll, adjust.

E

This board has heard a plethora of evidence today, all of which I think is relevant and.

E

All of which I'm glad has been presented to you, as I said during my opening statement, I believe.

E

That it's important for this board to look at the characteristics of this use to determine whether.

E

That this use meets the definition of nursing home in the county code, but the ultimate decision here.

E

Today is: does this use or does it not fall under the definition of nursing home in our county code.

E

We've heard a lot of evidence and testimony about comparing hypothetical. You know a brothel to a.

E

Health care facility, for example, if those are defined terms in the code, then we also.

E

Have to work within those definitions. Our code provides for a general retail definition and.

E

Then general retail is anything that meets the definition of general retail. Our code does not.

E

Specifically say a walmart is allowed in this district. A target is allowed in this district.

E

It says general retail and then that user has to come forward and make the case that.

E

Those characteristics meet that definition. The case before you today is very similar.

E

To that right now we are looking at a defined term in the county code, a nursing home, the the.

E

Previous bza decision is relevant case three four, four one, because it approved the conditional use.

E

Of a nursing home, so it did not it's relevant for the purpose of now. This board is looking at what.

E

Is a nursing home and what does a nursing home include and what's allowed under that approval.

E

um The definition of a nursing home, as you all have in front of you, is a residential health care.

E

Facility which provides institutional, lodging, nursing care, personal care and supervision to.

E

Aged chronically ill, physically and firm or convalescent patients who are not related to.

E

The owner or administrator of the facility, you have heard testimony uncontroverted testimony.

E

That this is a health care facility where patients reside and have institutional lodging. If you will.

E

That there is nursing care provided there, that there's personal care and that there's supervision.

E

You've then heard testimony about the definition of chronically ill and specifically chronically.

E

Ill and convalescent patients- those dictionary definitions, because our code does not define those.

E

Terms, we can't turn to our code and say: oh here's, the definition of chronically ill within our code.

E

So, as mr nelson stated what we then do is we look to the plain meaning of those words and the plain.

E

Meaning of those words is found no better than in just a regular dictionary, not a legal dictionary.

E

Not anything like that, just a regular dictionary, that's why those three exhibits were presented to.

E

You showing the merriam-webster definitions of chronic and convalesce and if you look at you.

E

Know the um the different forms of those words it covers chronically and convalescent. If you.

E

Flip through the pages of that definition, but a chronic is a continuing or occurring again and.

E

Again, for a long time, that is exactly what you heard testimony from mr stempler as uh speaks.

E

To these addictions that they are recognized in the industry as a chronic condition, you also saw.

E

The definition of addiction, which contains the word, the term chronic in there as well the term.

E

Convalesce is defined as to recover health and strength gradually after sickness or weakness.

E

There is not a magic period of you have to be cured, and then you um go through a rehab facility.

E

You have to look to the plain definition of convalescent or convalesce in this case in.

E

The dictionary- and this is all of the testimony- has been geared at that's exactly what these.

E

Facilities serve to do they serve to help someone recover the health and strength.

E

The characteristics that you heard testified to from mr stempler are important to note, because.

E

I'm not asserting that they're the same as what was testified to in 1990, because I wasn't.

E

Part of that case, and we don't have the fat, the decision in that case does not go through all of.

E

The specific characteristics that were presented as part of that case all we have before us in.

E

That decision that this board is looking at is a nursing home for 68 beds was approved, but in terms.

E

Of the testimony that was presented in comparing the characteristics of this use to a traditional.

E

Nursing home style, business they're very similar, and the reason that I presented testimony on the.

E

Sections of the code that guide the licensing requirements for these establishments is because.

E

The state recognizes them as both health care type facilities and regulates them. Accordingly, I think.

E

That's important to note: there's there's a lot of stigma, as mr stempler kind of just said, in a nicer.

E

Way, perhaps about drug addiction, and that's what we've heard a lot of testimony on today.

E

That's not relevant to your consideration of this case.

E

um I I don't dispute people testifying and sharing their experiences or anything of that nature, but.

E

That's not the question before you. The question before you is based on these characteristics.

E

Of the testimony that you've been presented, does this use meet the code definition of nursing home.

E

I think it's important to note that this property is agriculturally zoned. It's in an area with.

E

Conservation, zoning and some residential zoning, a nursing home in our code, is allowed in all is.

E

Allowed by conditional use in all of those zoning districts, so this shouldn't be looked.

E

At differently, because this is in the ag district, this is something that could have been applied for.

E

In any of those districts, I will note that the one property that wraps to the right, if you're.

E

Looking at the front of the building to the right and wraps around the rear of that came through a.

E

Conditional use process before this board for a landscaping company, I'm going to say a few years.

E

Back that property directly borders this and to the ones to the entire side of it and to the rear.

E

And we've not heard opposition from the owner of that company there. um This a chronic condition.

E

Would be before you if this was a diabetes clinic? Okay, the definition of chronic is important here.

E

That's why you see these definitions submitted in from the merriam-webster dictionary.

E

I think mr danena I'll I'll say he said it best. He said words have meaning words do have.

E

Meaning when a property owner buys a property, if they're doing their due diligence, they look.

E

At the zoning, and they look at what is allowed in those districts and what they look at is if.

E

They look in our use chart and they see nursing home. They turn to the definition section of our.

E

Use chart and they go what is a nursing home, and that is what they are allowed to do on that.

E

Property some uses are not specifically defined. For example, a restaurant is not.

E

Specifically defined in our code, so if we were before you with that request, we'd be.

E

Saying why we are a restaurant and you'd have to make that decision, but right now we're here.

E

Before you with a very specific definition, so it gives you this board a lot of guidance in what.

E

They should look at in terms of determining something is or is not a nursing home.

E

There's I believe mr nelson made the point in his opening statement and I just want to.

E

Briefly, touch on it that drug rehab clinics are disallowed in the industrial park section.

E

That, unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, the industrial park section.

E

Of the county code contains uses that are not listed in the use chart, and so it doesn't mean.

E

That they're not allowed in other districts, it's just an anomaly that perhaps one day.

E

Will get cleaned up and the use chart will match those prohibited uses in the industrial park, but.

E

That's what you're seeing there and the testimony that you heard from mr voigt is that, for example,.

E

A methadone clinic exists in the county and has been has been interpreted as a doctor's office.

E

Because it meets those use characteristics, so that's a similar, similar situation where you.

E

Have this industrial park language, that's just kind of a red herring here and not relevant to.

E

This to your analysis, it does not mean that a residential treatment facility is not allowed.

E

Anywhere in our zoning district, that's a that's not how that should be interpreted.

E

This is not a mechanism to substitute one use for another use. This is an analysis of this board that.

E

That's that's one of the statements of mr nelson made in his opening statement. This is a request.

E

Of this board to analyze the language and the code, definition of nursing home, a substitution.

E

Of use, that's some codes, allow for it. Some don't ours. Do not that's not that's not any part of the.

E

Request, that's before you today, that's kind of what some people call it a use, variance which.

E

Is not what we're here for today, the purpose of the agricultural district, which was also cited.

E

By mr nelson in his opening is not a binding part of the code, it guides the code and it.

E

Guides planning principles for what occurs in the agricultural district, but what controls here is.

E

The use chart contained in the code and the use chart very clearly as the former bza decision.

E

States, a nursing home is a conditional use in the agricultural district, and so now we're left.

E

With looking at the definition of a nursing home, these decisions by this board, contrary to some of.

E

The citizen testimony that you heard are not legal precedent. They might be used to show similarities.

E

To other cases, or my property is similar to this property and it had a similar request, but.

E

They are not legally binding precedent on this body, so I just wanted to clarify that as well.

E

I would request that this board approve or affirm, if you will that.

E

This use falls within the definition of a nursing home. I think you heard.

E

Uncontroverted testimony from my client and for mr voigt that all.

E

Of the characteristics of the use go towards meeting that definition. So with that, I would.

E

Seed to mr nelson, mr nelson, thank you well, thank you to the board.

D

It's been a long day for each of you I know, but we're near the end of it.

K

You have in your record the list of my clients and, and I really lobbied them.

D

Aggressively not to consume a lot of time with their testimony, because I think this case is a.

D

Legal question and I was trying to be respectful everybody's time, but each of those people who.

D

Are on that list saved the one or two people that we're going to correct when I speak to the council.

D

Privately after the hearing is one of my clients, all of whom were opposed to this application.

D

Let me just start with two legal premises. The first is there's no mechanism in your ordinance.

D

Authorizing the board to grant the relief requested by the applicant.

D

My adversaries argued to the board. There are lots of instances where, where you go to a use table and.

D

They don't have list a use on the use table that that precisely uses the letters to describe you or.

D

Use the word, so you have to come in and apply for a conditional use, say and say we are essentially.

D

The same as the the use that's on the use table, either by right or by special, by conditional use.

D

And so that, so I envisioned that and uh like if they'd applied for conditional use here.

D

Or if they formally applied for conditional use, there would have been uh the threshold.

D

Question is: are they in nursing home? We would have litigated that question and then, if the question.

D

Was yes, can they satisfy the requirements in the carroll county zoning order? That's how that's.

D

What that's the authority of the zoning ordinance grants to you? The ordinance doesn't grant you the.

D

Authority to to to to after the fact, 33 years after decision was made to say this used this.

D

Proposed use is what was approved back then. So as a threshold matter, I assert the code. Doesn't.

D

Grant you the authority to grant the release relief requested. That's the first legal premise.

D

But if you're going to get into the case, the second legal premise is: who has the burden to.

D

Prove the applicant has the burden to prove, so we all know what the burden of proof is that if your.

D

Minds are in equal poise, they lose if the evidence is balanced, they lose, they have to prove their.

D

Case we assert legally and factually they didn't. But let's just talk about the burden of proof.

D

The witness the applicant looked at page two of his exhibit 2.

D

Pointed to a house owned by my client and said: that's part of my facility.

D

This witness said that house owned by my client, which my client has restored over.

D

The past 30 years he said he is so has so little understanding of this site that he didn't even.

D

Know that wasn't part of it of his facility. I think that's relevant to the burden of proof.

D

It's certainly relevant to how my clients view the the applicant's understanding of.

D

Their community, if they point to a nearby house and say that's the drug rehab center.

D

Let's talk about the legal question: is a drug rehab facility, a nursing home, we say.

D

No here's why we've talked about the definition of nursing home. We could probably all recite it.

D

From memory now can't we, I won't do that again, but we have that in the ordinance we've talked about.

D

The fact that there's no definition in zoning ordinance for residential addictions uh center.

D

I pointed out to you in my open remarks that the zoning ordinance does use in the same section, the.

D

Phrase, nursing home and drug uh rehab facility and says neither is allowed in industrial park.

D

My point is: that's an example of how the county commissioners.

D

The legislators who enacted this ordinance they recognize that these were two uses they described.

D

Them separately in the industrial park section so that each is prohibited council's. Oh, it's just.

D

It's a red hair and it's an oversight, we'll clean that up, don't worry about it. I say, as an advocate.

D

My clients, that's evidence that the commissioners in their minds, saw these as separate uses.

D

That fact is compounded by the fact that the state regulatory bodies.

D

Separate regular there's a separate regulatory regime for nursing homes in the state system.

D

And a separate regulatory regime for a drug treatment center in the uh state regulatory.

D

Regime so to me, that's that's further evidence that these are two separate uses.

D

Then then, you might ask well okay, nelson.

D

If we can't have a drug rehab as part of a nursing home in the ag district, where.

D

Can we have it under the ordinance if you're so smart? You might ask me here's my answer.

D

You look at the definition of a hospital.

D

Includes any health related facilities that includes a rehab center.

D

So I believe, as an advocate for my clients, that you know no zoning ordinance is perfect.

D

You know we could. We could spend another next six months, redoing this ordinance.

D

But I believe a fair reading of your ordinance is that a drug rehab facility.

D

Is a rehab center that can be associated with a hospital? That's what I believe and.

D

Then we can go to the land use table and see where are hospitals permitted and that's where.

D

You can have a rehab facility associated with a hospital permitted in those zones.

D

Let me talk about the I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I mean to interrupt us processing what that.

U

Answer is what zone hospitals were allowed in. Oh um I'll have here right here. It's.

D

Hospitals are permitted as a conditional use in the yard, 20 000 zone. Medical centers are.

D

Permitted in the commercial and employment zones, but is, is the answer. Thank you, but uh let me fall.

D

Back and touch on the purpose because of the zone, because this really informs. I think the question.

D

Of whether a drug rehab center is a is a nursing home, you know, so we lobby on a lot of zoning.

D

Ordinances and we, we lobby- and we advocate for text, amendments that tighten up zoning ordinances.

D

And and we try to to express opinions as to what uses should be permitted in what zones and we try.

D

To provide a logical land-based argument in support of that position, so to me, if you're.

D

Asking the question: we know that a nursing home is permitted by conditional use in the ag district.

D

And we have this legal debate. Well is a drug rehab facility, a nursing home, I think we're obligated to.

D

Look at the purposes of the ag zone to help inform our analysis as to whether a nursing home is.

D

Permitted, whether a drug facility rehab facility is really a nursing home and uh my adversary said.

D

uh She waves her hands at the perfect. Oh they don't mean anything well in my world they mean an.

D

Awful lot because they interpret they inform our analysis as to what uses are permitted in the zone.

D

All right, so we know from the purpose of the ag district, is to promote agriculture and.

D

That's the fundamental core principle, and then they say that commercial and industrial uses.

D

Are limited to those uses intended to serve the agricultural industry and residents of.

D

The area, while maintaining the character of the surrounding countryside- that's section, 158.070, a.

D

Troom knows that, there's a addiction crisis in this country. Everybody knows that.

D

But the purpose of the ag district is to have non-agricultural uses that serve the local.

D

Agricultural community and we assert that a nursing home does that even farmers get old.

D

But a drug rehab facility level 3.5 is not a locally based uh uh facility, so for all those.

D

Reasons on behalf of my clients, we respectfully urge the board to deny the application. Okay.

A

Ms miller, do you have any? I do? Thank you, mr chair.

E

Mr nelson just spoke about the board's authority to grant this remedy. That's been requested.

E

And he cites back to the 1990 bza decision, just because it's from 1990 it does not.

E

Expire, you heard mr void's testimony that if I am exploring the use for a property- and I.

E

Come into the zoning office, whether it's being actively used for that or not we're, not we're.

E

Not talking about a non-conforming use here, okay, we're talking about a conditional use. If I come.

E

Into the zoning office and that property has an approval for a conditional use and I meet.

E

That decision, then it's the interpretation that I can continue that use do my use under that.

E

Existing approval, really what we're looking at is the definition of nursing home here I.

E

Don't think anyone's questioning the 1990 validity of that bza approval that granted.

E

um The the conditional use for the nursing home, because if they were that appeal period.

E

Has obviously expired, what we're talking about is the nursing home definition. Mr nelson spoke.

E

To the the burden of proof that I have and and his one thing that he points out as to why I did.

E

Not factually prove my case is because my client misidentified a structure in a photo, a structure.

E

That, if you refer back to the photo, is partially obscured by trees. Also, not certainly not the most.

E

Clear photo to begin with, I think, that's a pretty weak basis to say that I did not factually prove.

E

My case, if that's the one instance that we can cite to when you've heard a lot of testimony from.

E

Three witnesses of mine today that show that this meets the definition of a nursing home.

E

The site to the industrial park says drug rehabilitation clinic it's not even the.

E

Same type of use that you've heard testified to here today so to say that, because it's listed.

E

As a prohibited use in an industrial park, so it shouldn't be allowed to be argued as a use.

E

That's allowed as a nursing home, just doesn't it it doesn't hold up. We are not a clinic a clinic.

E

Is more of a doctor's office type use? You heard mr voit testify again to the methadone clinics.

E

That's the type of use that's prohibited in the industrial park. The industrial park is a blend of.

E

Our industrial and commercial zoning district that allows for a mixed-use development. It's.

E

It's inapplicable to this case here today. The hospital definition was. I would assert to you.

E

Slightly mischaracterized a hospital is a defined term in our code and after the definition of a.

E

Hospital it says such health-related facilities shall include, but not be limited to dot dot, dot.

E

And that's where you see the rehabilitation clinic which mr nelson is citing for the.

E

Reason that you then couldn't find that our use meets the definition of a nursing home.

E

A hospital in any zoning district in our county- I could argue to you that some use is.

E

In accessory use because it meets the definition of accessory, it's similar here, it's it's accessory.

E

To the hospital, that's why it's included in that definition, it's not a separate use, that's being.

E

Called out because if it were you'd find it in our use, chart as a separate use. That's allowed in.

E

The same districts where a hospital is allowed, but that's not what you see um mr stempler's testimony.

E

About the levels of service that these facilities operate under, he spoke to the asm levels, 3.7 and.

E

4.0 he his testimony was that those are the levels of service that rise to the hospital.

E

um Characteristics of use, if you will and that's how it's been interpreted and surrounding.

E

Jurisdictions, that's not what he's requesting on this property. All of his testimony has been.

E

About a 3.5 level facility, this is that goes to my next point, which is that this is not just any.

E

Drug rehab, um as mr nelson is kind of asserting in all of his statements. This is a very specific.

E

Characterized facility defined by the state and regulated by the state, so it's important.

E

For you to take that into consideration it, just as it would be equally important if our.

E

Testimony was that nobody is staying there, and this is an institutional lodging, because.

E

Then arguably we don't meet the definition, so I think you need to keep that in mind.

E

Approximately 80 percent of carroll county is ag. Okay is agriculturally zoned property, so.

E

To say that, first of all, I don't think that the purpose section of the ag district governs any of.

E

Your decisions, I think it's guidance, that aside to say that eighty percent of our community couldn't.

E

Benefit from some kind of facility like this- I I don't know where we're coming up with that sort.

E

Of data, but I'd be willing to bet that we have a large portion of our community that could benefit.

E

From a facility like this, so I don't think that we should pay too much credence to the purpose.

E

Section of the ag district, if this weren't, if a nursing home weren't a conditional use that would.

E

Be relevant but a nursing home is in our code as a conditional use allowed in the ag district. You.

E

Then do not need to refer back to the ag purpose section to see that the legislative intent was.

E

In drafting the language for the nursing home definition and then including a nursing home as.

E

A conditional use in the agricultural district- that's what this board needs to look at and.

E

Then look at the words in that definition and I think all of the testimony that we've presented.

E

Has clearly shown that we meet that definition so again with that, I would ask that this board.

E

Approved the request before you, hmm okay, the hearing record of this case is now closed in.

A

Accordance with the open meetings actor maryland, the board will now consider the case board members.

A

Wants to start.

J

Oh start, did you volunteer? I volunteered? Okay, I like this at all.

J

There's I heard a lot of testimony from the residents concern about safety, but I didn't.

J

Hear anybody complain about the fact that the nursing home was there for 32 years of their.

J

Bats or any complaints about people wandering around or whatever so nobody mentioned that they.

J

Talked about property values, but property values have certainly increased over the last 30 years.

J

Quite steadily, apart from you, know, 2007 and eight, when we had a housing meltdown quickly,.

J

Recovered and came back up again um about the zoning codes. There is no separate definition.

J

For a drug-related facility on the the you know, the code is not perfect by any means. A catch-all.

J

As uh has been presented here, you can't define every possibility out there, so you know, according.

J

To the zoning administrator, he thought the nursing home was the best fit, and I see that as being true.

J

Then you get down to the facts about you know really isn't all about not in my backyard then.

J

Where would you put it and I think, under prince versus schultz ruling, it can go in any other.

J

Location, it can go here as anywhere else. I don't think that allows you to sort of throw that out.

J

You know the the other issues that have been addressed, that mr nelson's comments were addressed.

J

By miss miller, I'm not going to go into that, but these are the key things that I'm seeing right now.

J

I can understand and sympathize with the residents, but you know we're here to.

J

uh You know um deal with the code as it's written right now is not perfect.

J

By any means, it's constantly being changed. It's not always changed in.

J

Stepped from one section to the next, so you have these anomalies throughout the system.

J

But we're here to you know, look at the code what's presented before us and then make.

J

A decision based on that and what I see the the uh the applicant made their case.

A

Mr simmons, [music] with mr snyder lisa, has to say: well he will see okay.

U

um So there's clearly a conditional use in place for a nursing home.

U

Conditional uses, as we all know and understand and recognize run with the land. So we are not privy to.

U

The case back in, I believe it was 1990 or 1990. If that's, if that's the accurate representation.

U

um So we are left with, we have approval for a nursing home.

U

It does not ever go away, so the only question for me is if this use the definition of a nursing home.

U

And to that end, mr voigt carroll, county zoning administrator, who I have utmost respect for.

U

Indicates that it does meet the criteria for a nursing home.

U

That's his interpretation and I think that there were sufficient evidence, notably the definitions.

U

The general definitions relative to the code that suggested that is an appropriate conclusion.

A

Schneider, first of all, thank you for everyone coming today. It's always very.

T

Important to have the citizens participate counsel, you both did an excellent job.

T

um I'll babble just a little bit, if I might- I know at the beginning of this case, mr nelson said it's.

T

Basically, looking at the legal interpretation of what a nursing home is and whether this.

T

Particular facility applies, and I think I think, based on words that he lost that battle.

T

With that said, words mean something, and when I say words mean something it's not only the.

T

Actual words, but it's the context in which the words are said for what reason, and what that.

T

What is the intent and timing of the words relative to what we're speaking to meaning.

T

When we had the approval back in 19, whatever it was 90 after this try um for a nursing home were.

T

They the words that were used to approve this particular uh nursing, home um or conditional.

T

Use, I don't know the answer to that or were the words when you put a nursing home with it with.

T

The words you used to the for the definition of a nursing home specific for a specific reason. But.

T

Why the writers use them? I know uh for because it has some exposure to this industry. Many of.

T

Those words are key words used in the comar to basically get nursing homes, bed counts.

T

Okay, meaning that they have to show a population with these issues in order to be able to have them.

T

Be emitted; okay and it's all in the comar reg. So again I always question sometimes authors use of.

T

Certain words and they're the people in 1990 that the board 1990 even remotely envisioned.

T

Treatment centers, I can assure you they did not had they would they have written the words.

T

Differently, I don't know the answer to that either, but it really gives me pause because.

T

I'm looking back and the decision does give us some insight into the mindset of the board where.

T

It says specifically says experts in the field of real estate and vehicular traffic engineering.

T

Substantiated that the proposed enlargement would not adversely affect the surrounding community.

T

Well, we have a document now that says there is a somewhat of a traffic issue.

T

It further says that nearby residents and property owners support the request.

T

And I think that's really a key element. You know in in the in the thought process of the board back.

T

Then, although I can't put myself in their mindset, it does give us some insight into what they were.

T

Thinking and what the community as a whole was thinking at that times. Interestingly, kumar.

T

Regulates both treatment, centers and nursing homes, so you have a common agency.

T

That regulates both on the flip side is disappointing. A person who has a 13.

T

Million dollar project, and once the approval for this particular facility can articulate.

T

What government agency regulates comar, I think that's, I think, that's unfortunate.

T

um Nursing we have the nursing aspect, because if you remember, I inquired regarding staffing.

T

You know, and is there rn is the staffing model include medical professionals such as rns and so.

T

Forth and it does so we're back to the definition nursing um as a board. We have to we're restricted.

T

Within the four corners of what the code says, we can't just arbitrarily write the rules from here.

T

Okay, the county commissioners and the planning commissions and committees develop uh the zoning.

T

In this county and we can't walk outside the four so with that said- and I I say this reluctantly.

T

I would have to support the approval.

T

Because it's in the four corners and the way the code is written if it was.

T

Written any other way, then we would have some flexibility, but the code is the code.

I

The second sure answer. Sorry, I'm sorry, mr simmons, that's! Okay! Thank you. Thank you. Colleagues.

F

Essentially, I summarized it, as is a drug rehab facility, a nursing home or.

F

It confuses me, and- and I've only been here since nine in the morning.

F

So I've got eight hours or seven hours uh of using my brain or trying to get my brain around this.

F

And one side says one thing and one side says the other and I go back and forth and back and forth.

F

Does this definition.

F

Nursing home fit the case today. uh I think it does.

F

Could it have been written better well in back in 1990? I don't have any idea. I.

F

I know that the drug treatment needed now is substantially different than what was.

F

Needed in 1990 having been around in both eras.

F

And and and work in drug treatment in both ears, I just have to say.

F

uh The code is being rewritten, as I think, over the next six months uh and and certainly.

F

Other definitions will be included, at least I hope so, but for now.

F

I have to say that I want to make an affirmation.

F

That the previous definitions confirm that a residential addiction service facility.

F

Is permitted under previous approvals for a nursing home and that's where I'm going to land.

A

Okay, this is a troubling case in my mind,.

A

um Things unfortunate that we even have to be looking at rehab facilities. This.

A

Isn't the first one that we've dealt with uh in the last? I guess eight or nine months.

A

There are numerous uses out there in all districts that don't fit the strict definition that we have.

A

Contractor storage are holy holy toledo, there's a whole host of things that can be done. We've tried.

A

To clean that up, the only place we're looking at here is a nursing home and mr nelson didn't.

A

Quite go far enough in his nursing home definition. It says a residential health care facility which.

A

Provides institutional lodging, nursing care person or personal care and supervision to.

A

The aged chronically ill physically infirmed and then the word or convalescent patients.

A

And the convalescent patients that that was defined, we had the definition before us. um I don't.

A

Know what other definition you could have we're? Looking at we've learned a lot as a board here.

A

um About level of clinical treatment- and this is a level 3.5- this is not the detox part of it.

A

um And I was glad to hear that these were not court ordered um patients that that that's a.

A

Whole nother that can create a whole nother um set of circumstances that could be detrimental.

A

So we're looking at a 3.5 where they need 40 hours of instruction a week. This isn't where.

A

They're coming and going of 3.3 facility, as we learned back last fall, is where people were.

A

Coming and going they've got jobs and they come and they get their counseling in the evenings.

A

It's very unfortunate again that we absolutely need this. Do I think this.

A

Fits the definition. Yes, it does fit. The definition.

A

The key word there is, or so with that board, I'm willing to entertain a motion I'll do whatever.

J

In case number 6447 before the board of zoning appeals.

J

I thought the board approved the request for affirmation and potential modification of.

J

The board of zoning appeals previous decisions to confirm the residential.

J

Addiction facility is permitted under previous approvals for for a nursing, nursing home.

A

Do we leave anything out? Should it have a potential modification.

J

I said that and no I mean you did say that I'm wondering if it should be in there.

U

What what the actual potential modification is? Yeah we're not.

U

Modifying anything right, we're not modifying the thing because it really is going in as a.

T

Nursing home, because that's it fits our criteria. Okay, let's strike that.

A

Okay, do I have a second only amended motion and I hear the motion again: can you do it richard? Yes, in.

J

Case number 6447 before the board of zoning appeals that the board approve the request.

J

For affirmation of the board of zoning appeals previous decisions to confirm that a residential.

J

Addictions service facility is permitted under previous approvals for a nursing home.

A

Okay, do I have a second.

U

Second, okay: any discussion on the motion.

A

Okay, seeing none all in favor, aye aye all opposed no.

A

Motion motion carries our oral decision will become final upon a written decision which will.

A

Be issued within 30 days unless otherwise extended by this board. A board's decision may be appealed.

A

By filing a petition for judicial review with a clerk of the circuit court for carroll county in.

A

Accordance with the provisions of chapter 200, title vii of the maryland rules of procedure.

A

The appeal must be filed within 30 days of the date of the board's written decision. Thank you.