Carroll County, MD Carroll County Land and Resource Management, 29 Oct 2020

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From YouTube: Forest Conservation Hearing October 29, 2020

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A

This conference will now be recorded uh just for introductions. um We generally start meeting by.

B

Everybody introducing themselves. My name is timothy dixon. I am the attorney for.

B

The environmental board so that that's my role in this and I'll I'll try to help facilitate.

B

This so everybody else on the screen, give your name and uh what your uh position.

B

Is or what your role in in this hearing is: okay, well, uh we're kim and tom show himself.

C

Oh and we're just I don't know what else to say: hi jim allman, I'm um assistant, county attorney.

D

On behalf of the department of land use and um tom devil best.

A

Yeah, I'm tom davis, I'm the director of land use planning and development at the county.

E

I'm frank black um chair of the environmental advisory council.

F

I'm craig paskowski- I am vice chair of the environmental advisory council.

G

And I'm tiffany van der werker and I'm a member of the carroll county environmental advisory council.

B

Okay, now, the way the hearing is going to proceed is that.

B

The shawls you're, the appellants in the case you're appealing a decision.

B

Of uh county officials so you're going to present your case first and that's going.

B

To be followed by the presentation of the case of the bureau of resource management.

B

You can put any witnesses any testimony you have on the mr and mrs shaw and then uh the board will.

B

Have a chance, the board and the uh the board's attorney will have a chance to ask you questions.

B

um And then the board will put on its case or the bureau of resource management will put on its case.

B

And you'll have a chance to ask questions of uh those witnesses. Okay, anybody any questions.

B

No, so that that's how we're going to proceed? Okay, all the witnesses are going to be sworn in by.

B

Joe vance, so if you plan on being a witness, you can take the oath and be sworn in at this point.

C

Okay, witness please raise your right hand. All of us whoever's gonna, testify in any way, yeah.

H

Okay, okay, do you swear or affirm under the penalties of perjury, that the testimony you're.

H

About to give this is truth, the whole truth and nothing, but the truth. Yes, we do. Yes. Thank you.

C

Okay, so should I start banner? Yes, mr mr show you put on your case anything you want the board to.

B

Consider uh you put that on now: okay, okay, all right um so we'll just start off um just say:.

C

Hello to everyone, we uh really appreciate you all attending this meeting. uh Thank you for being here.

C

This afternoon and um I'd like to also thank tom double this because you, you have helped us to this.

C

Point and we appreciate it, um we're a little out of our comfort zone, so please bear with us.

C

This is not something we're used to. uh We just wanted to start off by.

C

Saying that we're all for preserving the environment, we care about the environment.

C

We don't feel like today. This is what that's about, though,.

C

This is about our family and we're experiencing uh some pretty unimaginable financial problems.

C

Right now and we're just trying to get some relief from uh as far as conservation that we feel that.

C

With this variance that we feel we qualify for what we have here on our lot, it's a 14 and a.

C

Half acre lot we're dividing off we're taking off a three and a half acre lot, which the lot.

C

Of joins our house here, it's right next to our lot. It's right out back here, uh which we live on.

C

uh This has been a stressful, long, stressful journey, so subdividing this one lot from our.

C

Property selling this one light is our only hope of getting back on our feet.

C

We've overcome many obstacles, but we're finally, at the finish line except.

C

As far as conservation, we have received approval from every other developed department.

C

From the county- and it's actually been a very smooth.

C

Journey, um it's just been stressful for us time consuming, but smooth yeah. I mean the county's been.

C

Awesome working with us um anytime, we wanted a meeting, you know we got it and it's. I.

C

Have nothing but a nice thing to say about carroll county helping us get to this point.

C

uh We have studied and researched for arts conservation and do believe that preserving.

C

The environment is important, but we think that there are rare cases when an exception.

C

Should be made, there is a variance available and we strongly feel that we qualify for it.

C

We are here today to again request a legal variance from forest conservation.

C

We are asking for relief.

C

From twenty percent far afar station part of the technical requirement included in section 150.27.

C

A of the code of public local laws and ordinances of crowl county.

C

There's nowhere in this code that we see where it says full mitigation.

C

The full twenty percent can't be granted.

C

uh The variance this one condition.

I

Yeah, this is just the main variance. Well, the main variance states. The county may.

C

Grant a variance from any of the technical requirements included in the sub-chapter of the.

C

If there are exceptional circumstances,.

C

Our request request is based on section 150.33 a1, which says strict adherence to provisions.

C

Of the subject or subchapter could result in unnecessary hardship or environmental degradation.

C

I've had ongoing serious health problems for several years, which.

C

Led to open heart surgery two years ago.

C

We are trying our best to maintain, but unfortunately,.

C

We've had to spend all our retirement savings to get to this point.

C

And this is one of the reasons why we decided to divide off and sell the three and a half acre lot.

C

Until we get this result, we can't list a lot for sale.

C

And we feel, like we've, already missed the prime selling season. We just.

C

We've also had extremely exceptional circumstances, with access to our property, which has also caused.

C

Undue hardship and has taken some time to correct due to the unreasonable placement.

C

Of the only approved access to our property, it was impossible to build a road to our lot.

C

If we could have built a road to a lot, we wouldn't be going through all this.

C

Because it, it probably would have been sold. That was the problem. A lot of.

C

Anybody who came and looked at it soon as they saw they had to build this road.

C

um It was impossible to build the road.

C

To access the access was centered over a running stream, with a culvert and guardrail blocking.

C

The main road- and we spent a lot of time trying to get this worked out, which we finally did.

C

Get it worked out with the county and the state.

C

uh You want to hold that up. This is this is a picture of where the access was yeah so and.

C

So I don't know how really important that is, but that's well. We overcame that. Yeah.

C

We had several potential buyers, but no one wanted to deal with this. We thought convinced the state.

C

County to evaluate the situation, they concluded that it was nearly impossible to construct a.

C

Road through this parcel and grant us access onto route 97 from route 97, we know this doesn't relate.

C

To parts conservation but is important as part of our hardship and why our situation is unique.

C

Because of our financial hardship, along with problems caused by access to property, we partially.

C

Believe that our variants should be approved, the cost of planting trees, whether on or offsite,.

C

Is impossible for us to afford this lot? The 14 and a half big lie. It's already a buildable lot.

C

It's um as clay said many times you know all you would need to do is get a building permit.

C

And you can build a house on that line. It was already a buildable finished lot.

C

So we don't, our property is already exceedingly environmental.

C

Environmentally friendly with over a thousand trees.

C

And we have lots of wildlife running through these trees. It's.

C

Trees go all the way around the whole property.

C

We also have a pond and a stream which we think are compensating factors for planting more trees.

C

Which really wouldn't benefit anybody.

C

C

I'll show you a picture of the box.

C

So we're only taking off a three and a half acre lot.

C

And we're we are, we haven't taken down her and we won't take down any trees at all.

C

So it really does make no sense to put any trees on the slot.

C

Not only will it devalue our property, but it benefits number one.

I

I don't know if they can see this. This is.

C

These are the two lots right here. This is a three and a half big lot that we're taking off.

C

And this is the remaining 10 acres, here's the pond. So this is all open.

B

I think you're going to need to put the picture closer to the camera, so everybody can see it.

B

This one, yes put it closer to the camera, so the board can see it facing the right.

E

Where is the pond in relationship with that.

E

Map there, if you could point that out, okay, this backwards; okay, here's the pond.

C

This is the lot that will take it off, which comes in from old washington road right in here. So it's.

C

An all open lot and to put trees either here or here, would really devalue and make it less.

C

Desirable and we've all rerun into that a couple times with people looking at it.

C

Nobody wants, you know people who are buying. These lots want well.

C

Yeah people who are buying these lots want.

C

You know either for for animals or for growing things. It's just again. You know we have.

C

Over a thousand trees already on a lot, and we feel like that is definitely compensating factors along with the pond.

C

So you want to beat this one congrats.

I

um We lived here for over 30 years, and we've raised our family here and right now, we're behind.

I

On our mortgage payments and our house needs a lot of work and we're facing possible foreclosure.

I

So we're in dire financial, um our situation is really dire now and we already said selling this.

I

One lots our only hope to get us back on our feet and we're just pleading that you review our case.

I

And it just makes common sense and we feel like legal sense, and we just we don't have the money.

I

To plant the trees right now- and you know we- we really need to sell our lot.

C

Yeah I mean um it, we did offer to uh you know after we do sell our lot.

C

We would make a 5 000 donation to any carroll county food sunday or any other.

C

Mission or whatever to you know, I know that you know that doesn't have anything to do with folks.

C

As far as conservation, but we're willing it's just a good faith thing to show that you know.

C

We're not trying to get out we're not trying to get it over on anybody with anything we're not.

C

We really just want to get this done as soon as possible and.

C

So you know we were willing to make a donate or, if there's a.

C

Forest conservation fund fund or something you know, we would even raise it up a little bit if we.

C

It to above the farm we just don't have the money now to pay for the trees.

C

And we don't want the you know the lot being devalued or make it less appealing to anybody.

C

That's pretty much, you know everything uh we have to say again. We we had nothing but good.

C

Experience with carroll county- just we're not here to complain or anything like that. We just.

C

Want to get this finished and done and move on so we can enjoy our grandkids. We have five grandkids.

C

We have, you know, we're family people. We just want to move on we're not trying to make a ton.

C

Of money here we just need to catch up and move on. That's that's! That's really all we're trying to do.

C

So that's pretty much all I have to say at this point.

B

All right, the board will now hear questions from uh the land resource.

B

Management, if you have any questions for the shows, uh we have no questions.

J

Tim, I just want to announce myself. um This is john bowman, I'm shown as I had.

J

Some technical problems, I'm caller one now, so I'm I'm on this meeting. Oh thank you, john.

B

I do board members, do you have any questions for the shaw's.

E

um I have several here uh if you guys don't want me starting.

E

um I'll throw them all out there if you need me to repeat that'll, be fine.

E

um Currently, how is your land zoned now it's uh zone, conservation and tax.

C

Agriculturally and um the road that you would, I guess, propose to get to this.

E

Lot where, where would it be coming off of I'm a little confused? um I pretty much think I know.

E

From the track there, where the um three and a half acre parcel is um where would.

E

The necessary road need to come in from well um it's coming in off of old washington, road.

C

um And that that's all I mean that's all been approved and yeah, that's all fin. You know.

C

Everything's finished, except for this you know the sports conservation.

C

Issue uh yeah: you can see up uh right at the top of the screen where it says firefly.

E

Okay! Yes, yes right there from 97 from 97, yeah.

E

And then the proposed lot would be where that would be all the way at the end of firefly is.

E

That correct yeah, if you rate, if you raise this up again a little bit uh the other way. Sorry.

C

That's where all these dots are on the right hand, side. That's that's.

C

The three and a half acre lot of three points. I think a lot.

A

E

um How is your uh 14 acres now being presently used? Is it? Is it um being actively farmed.

C

Yeah, I use it for my my animals, my horses, my goats,.

C

And they, yes, it's pastor right now,.

C

I have a barn down there running shed it's it's it's it's more like a format.

E

Okay, I think that's all the questions I have at present um greg and tiffany I'll. Let you guys go.

F

um When you guys looked into how much this would cost you to um reach that 20 percent.

F

uh Threshold, what kind of figures did you encounter here? Well if we uh bought it at a bank.

C

Off site fifty thousand dollars, uh if we did it here, we've got a couple different figures.

C

Like thirty thousand one figure we got it wouldn't connect connected to the medium, but I couldn't.

C

I don't know who that was: thirty thousand thirty thousand.

F

um We also said you, um I guess, looking at uh you've been working with the county for some years.

F

And I guess this other development when that went with the idea of getting access to the.

F

Lot and subdividing at that time yeah. I guess my question is: how long have you.

F

Been in the planning process of subdividing that law well, we we did have a contract on it. uh It'll.

C

Be two years in december and the person was just going to divide it right in half like we're doing.

C

And what he found out and he bought, and he gave me a contract non-contingent and we.

C

Didn't even at that point we didn't even know anything about forest conservation either. I.

C

Had no idea about forest conservation um so once he got into it and had it for.

C

Almost a year, he realized that he had to put force conservation and he backed out so.

C

Yeah we've been so at that point we decided, we I mean we could have. We could have done.

C

Three lots, uh but we decided just to do two lots just like this previous guy wanted to do.

C

Because I mean we live here and we felt like it would be doing more of environmental damage by.

C

Having three lots rather than just two nice lots, so uh you know that's why we only did two lots.

C

I mean we definitely could have made more money by doing three lots, but.

C

uh We just felt like it would be a lot quicker and simpler just to do two lots. I I those.

C

And it did go pretty quick once we got the.

C

Everything into the county the plans, um so I just think that having three lots would.

C

Have the neighbors would probably have been a little more upset, you know having three lives.

I

That was about a year ago, a year and a half two years well, two years was with was when he did.

C

It at least when we started it after he got out it was about a year ago, maybe somewhere around.

C

In there, and when did you like encounter the like the health issues and the financial issues.

C

uh That's been going on um for a while, the the, but it came to a heads like two years ago.

C

When we decided to sell it, you know just you know, to have the surgery yeah two years two years.

C

Okay, so your motivation first for subdividing is the your health issues and finance right.

C

Yeah yeah, I mean we hate to we hate to sell it. I mean I really do but.

C

I feel like that's our only chance to you know.

C

To catch up to move on.

F

Thank you, okay, thank you. um So I have uh one question. You said um the lot that you are.

G

Subdividing the smaller lot has been approved. um You know obviously pending this decision.

G

Have you had any uh perk tests done or any testing or septic yeah? That's all finished.

C

Everything's everything's finished: it's ready to go.

G

um Yeah, I don't have any other questions. Thank you.

B

The board members have any further questions.

E

uh Mr dixon, are we allowed to ask questions of um members of the bureau of resource management.

E

Regarding this, yes, they're, going to be presenting their case at the conclusion of the shaw's case,.

B

So it looks like that's the end of the shaw's case, so now, uh land resource management, they're.

B

Going to present their case now, the shaw's and the board members will be able to ask questions about.

B

Their case do I need to swear john in john bowman. Yes,.

H

John I'm trusting you're raising your right hand.

J

I am do you swear or affirm, under the penalties of perjury, that the testimony.

H

You're about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing, but the truth. I do thank you.

D

Okay, can I tim, can I go now.

D

Yes, go ahead and present the case. Thank you um good afternoon, I'm, mr chairman, and member to the.

D

Board, my name is james allman, I'm an assistant um county attorney on behalf of the uh department of.

D

Land use management, and uh mr tom devil. This um mr devil best- and I appeared here uh before you.

D

Today, regarding an appeal of a uh decision of a foreign conservation, variance request,.

D

V-Fc-20-016- um and that is the scope of this hearing, um this hearing has.

D

Nothing to do with any access roads. It has to do with the appeal. The fars conservation.

D

um Variants um so just to provide a little bit of background, um the shawls on the property located.

D

At 6176 uh landing drive, sykesville maryland um the property, um as the shawl said, is 14.5 acres.

D

Then conservation, the property is improved with a horse pasture barn, stable and fencing.

D

And the shawls are seeking to subdivide their property into two residential lots.

D

Lot one, which would be three point: seven, five acres and lot two, which would be ten acres.

D

The plan would result in disturbance of approximately ninety six thousand five hundred and.

D

Ninety five square feet or 2.2 acres um due to the proposed disturbance exceeding 40 000 square feet.

D

um The carroll county forest conservation ordinance applies to the proposed subdivision.

D

Therefore, as far as stand uh delineation, forest conservation plan is required. Section 150-2781.

D

Of the forest conservation ordinance provides that the minimum forest threshold for any zone shall.

D

Be twenty percent any tracked net area, which is comprised of less than the minimum threshold, shall.

D

Be a forested to achieve the minimum threshold. So therefore, for this property the amount of fire.

D

Stations calculated at 20 percent, the uh net tract area, um which is in the conservation zones defined.

D

As the total area of the property applying this formula to the smallest property of 14.5 acres.

D

um That come multiply that by twenty percent. That comes out to two point: nine acres for.

D

Our station, under the code, the shelves are seeking a variance from um this twenty percent. Our station.

D

Requirement when the shawls first applied for a variance from this requirement, they did so.

D

Under section 150 33 81, um strict adherence um of the code could result in unnecessary.

D

Hardship or environmental dedication um in that first request this year did not offer.

D

Any proposals to meet um the a far source requirements in the ordinance shaw's then.

D

Applied for a second amended uh variance application where they sought relief from.

D

The same section of the code questioning that the a4 station minimum threshold be reduced to seven.

D

Percent, um rather than the required 20 percent um in the code, which this would work out to about.

D

One acre of our station at that seven percent um calculation, the shaw's, contend.

D

Requirement to plant trees to take away from the property's current aesthetic.

D

um And keeping the area open, they further contend that, due to ongoing health complications.

D

They have financial difficulties and cannot strictly adhere to the requirements of the code.

D

um This request that the forest threshold uh should be reduced to seven percent again.

D

Would result in one acre of mitigation, um a county staff report on the requested variants.

D

uh Recommended that the uh director of the department of land use management uh disapprove.

D

um The second amended variance the staff report argued that the shaw's aesthetic argument and.

D

The financial arguments are problematic regarding the aesthetic argument, the report provides that.

D

County analysis, the proposed plan finds 1.5 acres of our of a far station that can be planted on the.

D

Larger lot, that's lot to the 10 acre lot, with no encroachment on the fence past your area.

D

um Such planning would also not encumber the smaller um lot one and would leave six acres.

D

um Of the larger live lot to open um regarding the financial argument, um the report provides that the.

D

Shaw's, um while we sympathize with the shawls in their situation, um the shells continue to reject.

D

Cost-Saving measures of planning a portion of the afar station on site purely on aesthetic rounds.

D

And the shawls also have the option of selling the property as a single lot, thus avoiding the.

D

Applicability of the forest conservation ordinance or they could subdivide their.

D

Property into three lots which might increase the revenue they could realize from any sale.

D

While we do understand and sympathize with the shaw's situation, the director was willing to work.

D

Toward a compromise with the shaws and approve their second variance with conditions.

D

Those conditions being that 1.5 acres of on-site a far station be required and that the variant's.

D

Approval should be considered non-transferable in a letter to the shawls on on august 5th 2020. The.

D

Director wrote that this condition is being placed on the approval based on the relief.

D

Which is to be granted 1.5 acres due to the overwhelming distress related to health and.

D

Financial conditions of the shaws, um the shawls, are still not satisfied with the.

D

1.5 acre um a far station requirement, so they um appealed to this board.

D

um The director is respectfully requesting that you uphold his decision that the 1.5 acres.

D

Shall be afforded on site and um upheld, and um I want to thank you and call uh mr tom devis.

D

Okay, um mr double bits: can you please state your name for the board.

A

I'm scott doublemiss and what is your title with the county.

A

I'm director of land and resource management, if you can, and how long have you been in this.

D

Position uh approximately five years: okay, and what are your job responsibilities as director.

A

uh Within the department there are the functions of your resource management.

A

Which all all the review functions in our environmental compliance fall under? We have.

A

Zoning development review again preservation and geographic information systems function.

D

Are you familiar with the carroll county uh forest conservation, ordinance.

A

uh Yes, I am okay and in your position as director of the department of land and resource management,.

D

Have you dealt with forest conservation variances? That is correct. As my role as director I handle.

A

All the variance requests through the environmental codes that come through.

A

The department and um are you familiar with the applications for the forest variants, um the forest.

D

Conservation variants from um thomas and kimberly shaw- yes, I am um chris. Did you get my um exhibits.

D

Application um into the record and into evidence.

D

No, this is the application for variance that's the county staff report. Yes, thank you.

D

um So the application for their property tom was um for 6176 landing drive. Is that.

D

Correct that's correct and um what are the shawls proposing to do with their property.

A

They're proposing a two lot subdivision: okay and um lot. One is three point: seven, five acres and lot.

D

Two is approximately ten acres yeah. I think it's ten point. Six. Nine acres per second, that's correct.

D

And um why are the shaws seeking a forest conservation variance.

A

Initially, it was for complete relief from the afar station requirement of the forest conservation act.

A

uh The second, which was the amended request, uh was to reduce that down or add to that. Excuse me.

A

uh Up to seven percent, which was the one acre, and can you just explain what a far.

D

Station is, it is the replacement of trees on on a property. So let me re, let me read the definition.

A

Of it, um because I think it's important for everybody to understand what that definition.

A

Is it's the establishment of forest on an area from which forest cover has been absent for a long.

A

Period of time or planning of open areas which are not present in forest cover, that is within our.

A

Code definition and the state period definition and is afar station a priority in carroll county.

A

Yes, both by practice and by law and the county uh forest conservation ordinance.

D

Afforestation threshold is 20 of the uh net trapped area. Is that correct.

A

That is correct for in this specific situation, that is correct and the shaw's total property.

D

Being 14.5 acres, um 20 of that would be uh 2.9 acres um if they strictly adhered to the 20.

A

Yes, that's correct, okay, um so their original application for variance was denied.

D

Correct correct and what was the reason for that denial because they uh did not want to do any afar.

A

Station whatsoever on the property, okay and then the shawls uh filed the second amended uh variance.

D

Request, correct that is correct and in their second um variance application, the shells proposed.

D

To provide a portion of the required afar station, that's correct! uh What were the shawls proposing.

A

They were proposing uh which would amount to seven percent of the twenty percent, which again.

A

Was the one acre equivalent for about one acre? um I would like to introduce into evidence now.

D

A um county staff report um dated july 31st 2020, which was drafted regarding this variance request.

D

um Now, in on that report, did the staff identify any acres which would meet the basic intent.

D

Of the afar station requirement for on-site planting of trees, yes, they specifically said.

A

A county analysis of the proposed plan finds at least 1.5 acres of the afar station can be.

A

Planted on the larger lot, which is number two, with no encroachment in the fence, pasture area.

D

And the report found that um the planting would still leave six acres of the lot open, correct.

F

That is correct. um What was the ultimate recommendation of that report?.

A

The recommendation was to disapprove the variance, but you um approve the variance.

D

Request with conditions, however, that's correct: um what were those conditions.

A

The condition was that the proposed one acre would be expanded to one and a half acres.

A

And that also the request would be non-transferable.

D

Right and um while making your determination did you consider the shaw's financial hardships.

A

Yes, I did and in the consideration of those financial hardships.

D

Were the conditions, I guess um the basis for their financial hardship.

A

Yes, there were two things that were considered in my final decision.

A

The first was that per the uh per our code. The priority for the planting of a bar station is.

A

To be in sensitive areas, that is one of the number one priorities and the area that was.

A

Designated by the staff of one and a half acres was considered by them to be of sensitive nature.

A

Because it included the pond and other areas adjacent to the pond, so the one.

A

And a half acres did meet both uh did meet the criteria for a priority planting of afar station.

A

On a property, the second consideration I then uh considered was the fact of their economic hardship.

A

Thus, why I restricted it or kept it just to the one and a half acres and did not require them to.

A

Do any part of banking or off-site planting, which would be more expensive than on-site planting.

D

So you're willing to grant a variance at 1.5 acres of mitigation rather than the 2.9 acres.

D

Which would be required under a strict adherence.

A

With the code that that is what my uh august 5th 2020 determination was that's correct. Okay,.

D

uh Thank you, mr devil. This, um that's all I have um at this time for this witness um or.

B

Do the the shaws do you have any questions uh from mr devlis, based on his testimony.

E

uh I'm mute your uh phone again, please.

C

Okay, you hear me thank you, okay, uh how was it determined that this one and a half acres.

C

Was suitable to plant um an acre and a half, I mean how.

C

Who came down here and took a look at that and said that you know this would be suitable.

C

That was done by county state. Somebody came down and actually looked at the lot. I cannot verify.

A

That he actually came. I did not actually do that analysis. That is what their staff.

A

Identified so I don't know how they could have done that without coming down, and I didn't invite.

C

You a couple times to come down and please take a look at the lot, so I can show you.

C

You know that to put an acre in half over on the other side of the pond there I mean it's just good.

C

Impossible yeah, it's just not! First of all, we don't you know it's. The financial hardship is.

C

Still going to be there and are we just putting trees there just on the trees? There I mean it's.

C

Not benefiting anybody, that's that's what I'm trying to try to you know to show no, sir, we're not.

A

Putting trees there just to put trees there. First we're putting trees there to comply with the state.

A

And local forest conservation act, that's the first purpose. The second purpose is that the supposed to.

A

State carroll, county foreign identify areas based on the water bodies um as priority areas, expensive.

A

Various important plantings of these types, these natures, so no it's not just plant trees.

C

Well, you don't know if anybody came down and took a look at this situation.

C

You're not sure I cannot answer that directly now.

C

I mean the variance space.

C

C

Such says, strict adherence to the provisions of the subchapter could.

C

Result in unnecessary hardship or environmental degradation.

C

The variance we're asking for is a variance from that particular technical requirement. I mean.

C

That's and we we have a whole host of reasons why you know we've already went over several of them.

C

um And that that particular technical requirement.

C

Is 20 and that's the technical requirement we're asking the variance for so.

A

And you receive the variance and relief from me from that 20 percent and I appreciate that.

C

But what we're asking for.

C

Is a relief from the 20 which allows the code allows that's what I'm.

C

You know we're not asking you for something that hold on sir. The code allows you to answer it code.

A

Does not guarantee anyone, that's true. I want to know why you're not why why you why you wouldn't.

C

Grant that's I mean I, I don't understand why you're holding on to this I mean I'm just going.

C

To be, you know personal, I mean human here. Why are you holding on to that? So much I mean we're.

C

I'm telling you we don't, we can't do it. We're I mean we're human beings, we're.

C

Trying to just make it I'll make a donation to the forest conservation after we get.

C

After we get this finished, if I put trees over there, it's it's going to take away a third of my.

C

Lot, it's left a third of it. It's going to make it less valuable, less appealing! You know it's.

C

I've already been through all that with people. That's that's I mean what what else can I do.

C

You know to compensate, I mean we like, I said we already have a thousand trees around the property.

C

There's deer, all in all, in the property.

C

I mean this. I just took this yesterday, there's deer: all we have like a farce. All.

C

The way around the whole property, we have a pond we're we're we're environmentally.

C

Mentally friendly, you know where I care about the environment, you know I'm not trying to get over on.

C

You or anybody else, I'm just trying to we're just trying to move on here. That's all we want to do.

C

If we have to put an acre and have a trees there, we can't do it, I mean it. What else can I do? Can.

C

I make a contribution to the forest conservation. Can I do that after a lot after a lot sold, yeah.

C

I mean I'm not trying to get over on you. Please don't take it personally, it's it's! I love trees.

A

Mr shoulder you've been through, you know, I'm not taking it personally. I know.

C

Yeah, I mean we're just kind of like begging for us to just just just help us out, so we can get.

C

This done, I mean it's not going to hurt anything. I mean we feel like we've overly compensated for.

C

For the environment here, our own live, which is right next to it. We a whole lot is full of trees.

C

You know we have trees all over the place here. If I could address that, you know we we had this.

A

Discussion numerous times and the trees you have are do not qualify as foreign okay, I'm just using.

A

Those you know planted in hedgerows and in their own property boundaries, so they do not qualify.

A

As a forest and forest law is about forest, replacing forests and planting forests, both if you.

A

Clear forest and if you do not have cars, there are two major tenants in the forest conservation act.

A

One is reforestation, basically, if you clear forest, you must replace it and the second one is: if you.

A

Do not have bars, you must plant, and I understand a lot of people have a difficulty with the afar.

A

Station part of it, but that is part of the street forest conservation act in the county forest.

A

Constitution act which we are designated to uphold. I understand that. That's why they have that's. Why.

C

They have a variance for certain circumstances, and this is where I feel like we fall into that.

C

Circumstance I understand where you're coming from. I know you have to do your job. I understand that.

C

So you know, I don't have anything against you tom, I I know you're just doing what you know, but there.

C

Is a variance and we're requesting the variance, so we don't have to plant trees here. That's that's.

C

What we're requesting so understood and that's why you're here today with your appeal: okay,.

C

This I mean, like I said this is totally out of our comfort zone. It's just stuff. This is.

C

Difficult for us, the whole thing's, not stressful, calling you every day was stressful, agreed.

C

We're just trying to move on that's what we want to do.

B

All right, uh mr mr shaw, do you have any further questions for mr devil best? No, sir, don't.

B

Board members, do you have any questions for mr devil, business.

G

um Yes, uh I would just like some clarification, so um the 1.5 acres near the pond um is that.

G

To the northwest of the pond, or where exactly would that be it's um yeah, it is? Is it northwest.

J

Do you want me to speak to this hold on a second if we could.

A

Can we have mr bowman respond to that? Please, okay, I got to get my charger. Could you hold.

B

Off on your question and tell let's finish: devil misses testimony and then we'll come to mr bowman.

A

I will just murder mr bowman, for the exact location. If you would please.

B

We'll complete your testimony and then then we'll get to mr boneless testimony gotcha.

I

B

Are there any further questions for mr devil, this.

F

Just just to be clear, so they could plant the 1.5 acres.

F

On the larger lot, and not really even touch that 3.5.

A

E

Tom, do you um or mr devil list, do you have a um ballpark cost figure when uh approximately what.

E

Expenditure would be to play at that 1.5 acres. At present, I would. I would like to deploy boomer.

F

um What is the timeline for them completing if they were to uh enforce.

F

The 1.5 acres: what is the timeline for them to complete that process, and would it have to be done.

F

Before the subdivision, yes, and that, where they're at right now is there they're in the final.

A

Process uh they would have to go through the legal package process with our with our folks here that.

A

Would require bonding of the planting and then yes, they would be planting it in conjunction with the.

A

Development of the property, so mr devil best, I just so we're all perfectly clear um where it.

E

Stands right now um it's been compromised to the point where they would have to plant 1.5 acres.

E

To receive the variance, as opposed to the 2.9 correct, actually the variance has been.

A

Granted at 1.5 acres, so my process is essentially complete. What they're doing is they're appealing.

A

My decision, that of the 1.5 acres, so I I I compete with my process at this point in time.

E

Anything else craig or tiffany.

B

Could I ask one question to maybe make clarify things? Mr devil best.

B

Is it fair to say that there should have been like 2.9 or 2 point something acres of reforestation.

B

And you granted a variance to 1.5 instead of what would have been required. The two point, something.

A

That's correct: okay. Council call your next witness. I would call uh mr jonathan bowman.

J

Yes, president, okay, um so the board members just have a few.

E

Jim there was some noise there. Can you repeat what you said? uh Yes, the.

D

Board members um have some questions for mr bowman.

D

So the board you can.

G

Hi, mr bowman, um would you be able to tell us um exactly where the 1.5 acres would be located.

J

Sure so the staff report that was presented was authored by me, and that is what identified that.

J

One and a half acres of possible planting area that was that assessment was made.

J

Through a visual site visit to the area and also some desktop analysis using our gis.

J

System, um the location of the suitable planting area is essentially to the north east of the pond.

J

um If you see there's a on the plan, it's labeled as a forested water resource protection, easement.

J

So essentially, that area sits just below the dam of the pond and um runs over to the property line.

J

That area and if you wrap around then to the south eastern portion.

J

Essentially running the planting along that existing board fence, I use that as a boundary.

J

The idea would be that you can accommodate about one and a half acres within those two portions.

J

Of the property.

E

uh Mr bowman, um do you have a rough ballpark estimate when uh what current.

E

Cost would be to the shaw's um to plant 1.5 acres of far station in that area.

J

Sure to have a planting contractor plant that one and a half acres would cost about.

J

Twelve thousand dollars that would include preparation of the site, installation of.

J

Material and country, shelters um and then uh maintenance of that area for three years.

F

Mr bowman, could you um I guess specifically um say why.

F

You know that area why it would benefit that area to have a four station there.

J

Sure we always uh seek to establish uh forest um on areas that are considered to have a.

J

Special habitat value or be sensitive in one uh way or another. I think that's.

J

A good area because you have a little bit of adjacent area to the existing pond and stream.

J

From that matter, you're gaining some nutrient absorption. Some sediment uh control and protection.

J

From the trees uh from sediment reaching those uh water water resource areas, um there's always.

J

The inputs of the organic matter, the leaves falling, and things like that that benefit.

J

In-Stream aquatic organisms, uh the wildlife habitat value of having a forested condition.

J

Is usually leaps and bounds above you know, just an open, open, meadow, open field condition.

J

All those are the type of reasons why.

J

We seek especially stream side and and even pond areas for these types of plantings,.

B

Any further questions uh by board members.

B

All right, uh uh mr mr shaw, do you have any questions for mr bowman.

H

Mr shaw, you need to unmute your phone.

C

Sorry joe, uh I just wanted to ask jonathan again to explain who that what? What that, what.

C

Does that benefit to have an eight and a half trees over there? On the other side of the pond?.

C

I mean it's gonna block. There's two neighbors over there. It's gonna block their view to the pond.

C

It just doesn't benefit anybody to do this, I mean yes, some leaves will go into the ground.

C

I don't know what I don't understand, all that, but there's trees everywhere over there.

C

We're going to have plenty of leaves on it on the ground. Can you explain you know what else it would.

C

Benefit other than you know leaves please so I guess I'll just I'll just respond, mr shaw, that.

J

You know the kind of the basic idea with afforestation.

J

Is that, essentially, by building on a property, to a certain extent, you have removed the opportunity.

J

From forest being established there in the future, so as such, when they set up the aforestation piece.

J

Of the forest conservation law, they looked at that and they said you know. We believe that a certain.

J

Percentage of development activities, and even if it doesn't clear trees, should help reforest.

J

You know a uh an area like carroll county or the state of maryland in general, so it's kind of the.

J

Idea that everybody's contributing a little bit um toward the overall maintenance of forest cover.

J

um Across the state across the county, so even in your case where it seems like very little.

J

Is being accomplished with an acre and a half being placed adjacent to the pond?.

J

You know collectively, there's a big impact um collectively your project, many other projects.

J

um As you compile them together, you know, we've realized hundreds and hundreds and hundreds.

J

Of acre acres of forest replacement across the county and and it's helped, it's helped.

J

Slow development-related forest loss, it hasn't curtailed it entirely, but it's helped slow. It.

J

And as you speak, then, to the benefits in general of having forest on the landscape.

J

You know it relates to some of the things I discussed in terms of nutrient uptake.

J

Sediment control wildlife, habitat, but it grows even larger in terms of looking at.

J

You know water quality in the bay water quality and our local streams. Air quality within the state.

J

You know just just a myriad of environmental benefits and and ultimately, in some cases,.

J

Environment or economic benefits, as you know, some industries rely on forest.

J

C

We're putting an egg and a half of trees.

C

In front of a carroll county family, essentially that's what we're doing here.

C

It's more important for you to have this acre and a half of trees.

C

Than to I mean, there's a variance for this this, it's not like, I'm asking for any favors.

C

Something out of the ordinary something that shouldn't be asked for.

C

It's a variance it work. We feel it strongly feel that we qualify for this variance like.

C

I said I'm not trying to get over on anybody. I feel like. We have compensated.

C

I mean, like I said I just took this yesterday- this we we have lots of trees. This is right.

C

On the property, lots of trees all around the whole property to to put an acre and.

C

A half over there is going to cause serious hardship. I don't feel like it benefits anybody.

C

We're not a developer, we're not a builder. It's a one-time thing.

C

It just doesn't make any sense to me. It just really really doesn't make any sense to me.

C

These deer come back every single night.

C

We have lots of wildlife down there.

C

I don't know I mean it's, it's tough for me to be against all you know, to have to be.

C

Stating my case in front of somebody: oh you know all these people is it's difficult.

C

So I'm a little bit tongue-tied here a little bit, but I feel really strongly that please we.

C

Really do need this bearing so we can move on. I mean this: is it's not going to benefit anybody.

C

To put an anchor in half over there, people love that pond over there. It's going to block the pond.

B

Okay, all right we're at the questioning stage of the hearing. So do you have any further questions.

B

For mr bowman no well, I guess I I want to ask him. Do you jonathan? Do you feel that our our situation.

C

That that putting and half the trees there is is more important than our situation. I mean it is.

C

To you, it is eight and a half really that important, because we do have a legal variance.

C

Of what that you know that we qualify for, do you feel like it that that is it.

J

Well, mr show, I guess I'd respond that you know when I wrote the staff report.

J

Related to your second variance request, you know my my staff recommendation was.

J

Actually denied all of the variants entirely um of your request entirely, so I think you know, mr.

J

Devilbiss has gone a step towards you in terms of compromise, um considering that he said well I'll.

J

You know I'll consider a variance with an acre and a half of uh of mitigation being provided.

C

In a better situation, so well it it did, but it really didn't. I mean.

C

If you can do an eight round here, but why not just give me a variance for the whole thing I mean it.

C

I don't know what else what was the reason like I was shocked. You know you were working.

C

With me to to write this variance up, we met with tom, you me and my wife and tom malmet,.

C

And tom asked you to please help us write your variants up.

C

And submit it to him well we're in the process you and I were writing back and forth. You know.

C

You said you know you need to put this in there. You need to put that in there.

C

So you know we're working with you to write this variants up and then all of a sudden.

C

I see that you've already sent off a letter to tom saying tonight. I I I don't know why.

C

You would you know why, what's the reason why you did that that's, I was shocked.

C

I mean I thought we were working together to get this done and then all of a sudden you know.

C

You you shot off a letter to tom saying tonight and I I don't know why why? Why would you do that.

J

Well, just to clarify you know when we met early on so I'm as forest conservation specialist. My role.

J

Is always to kind of um uh you know, explain to the public and have them understand or do my best to.

J

Explain to the public, including yourselves, how the ordinance and processes within the ordinance work.

J

So my role was really to try to uh you know at the point that you guys expect expressed an.

J

Interest in making a variance request, uh you know my role was to ensure that that variance.

J

Request got submitted properly um and in the right format, so we had a lot of discussions about that.

J

um My role was never and- and you know never expressed that you know I'm not your advocate.

J

Essentially, so at the point that you guys did submit a variance request, you know my.

J

Role was not to advocate for you. It was simply to ensure that we had a proper submission and.

J

And went through uh you know to tom for ultimate uh denial or approval. Yeah um is.

C

There, a law that says you can't be an advocate to help. You know the public um not help, but.

C

Assist you know and be an advocate. I mean why why, wouldn't you not be an advocate? I.

C

Mean if I had a good enough reason showing that you know we should get this variance.

C

Why you know why not advocate for us uh many other people from the county have done that. I mean.

C

You know clay black, I mean clay back. Black was awesome, helped us any way he could.

C

I don't know why we're having so much.

C

Problems here I don't understand, I mean we can't move on without this variance. It's just.

C

It's an egg and a half of trees. I will make some kind of contribution.

C

After we get to seoul, that's pretty much all I got to say.

B

All right presentation: uh well, the exhibits that have been shown on the screen. The board will.

B

Accept in the evidence, the various letters and reports that's going to be accepted into evidence.

B

Presentation of testimony and evidence is now closed and summations are in order. Mr and mr shaw.

B

You can make a summation to the board and then it'll be um the council for uh land and resource.

B

Management uh opportunity to make a closing argument: okay, all right um again tom! Thank you for.

C

Working with us, I feel like I feel, like you, wanted to work with us.

C

I feel like you if it was up to you, I feel like if we would have came to you first. I.

C

Think that you would have probably granted the parents, that's that's the way. I feel.

C

I think that jonathan felt like he was doing his job, which is, he probably was.

C

C

You throw me off here.

C

Well, I appreciate what you have done tom. I know that this hasn't been easy.

C

For you either, I just hope that we can look at this and say an acre and a half of trees.

C

In this circumstance can't be that important, especially all the trees we have on this property.

C

The pond, you know, we're very environmentally friendly on this property and I feel that.

C

That totally compensates for this other eight hour and a half of trees, and I hope.

C

That the board can understand that. Do you wanna say anything. Thank you one. Second, thanks.

B

All right, land and resource management yeah: do you want wish to make a closing statement to the.

B

Board, I do um mr chairman and members of the board um you've heard testimony from the shawls about.

D

Their financial hardship and that of strict adherence to 150 27a of the code followed.

D

They would experience um that hardship. However, in their first variant, the shelf requested.

D

um They offered no afar station um in their second variant request. um The shelf requested one acre or.

D

Seven percent a far station um from the required 20 threshold in the county code.

D

um And while this is much greater than the previous request um of no forest afore station,.

D

The county is bound by state and local laws. The county report, the county staff report, I'm sorry.

D

Finds that 1.5 acres of a fire station can be planted on lot too, without encroaching into the.

D

Fence pasture area and would not encumber a lot one that would be six acres um open.

D

Mr doublevis testified uh that he has granted the variance um on the condition that um it's 1.5.

D

Acres of on-site a far station rather than um the shaw's requested um one acre, uh mr devil. This also.

D

Testified that he took into consideration the shaw's financial hardships, which is evidenced.

D

Not only by his willing to work um with the shawls to grant the 1.5 acres of afar station.

D

Rather than the 2.9 acres, which the code strictly adhered to, um it would have to be followed, um but.

D

Also that the variance is non-transferable and applying specifically to the shaw's um situation.

D

um State and local laws require infor station a4 station is a priority in carroll, county and.

D

Ensuring that sensitive areas are protected with a primary objective for county staff and county.

D

Staff is bound by state and local law. um For these reasons, we uh respectfully assert that the.

D

Opinion um of the director and granting the second amended variance, um be upheld, and um I just want.

D

To thank the chairman and all the members of the board for your time today. Am I allowed to respond.

B

uh No, the hearing and record of this case is now closed in accordance with.

B

The open meetings act of maryland the board will now consider the case. Okay,.

E

um Mr dixon, should we uh board members, should we comment now or um if we are ready to proceed.

E

With the vote, should we go in that route? Yes, you should comment talk about the case.

B

What findings of fact that you, you know find uh and uh and then and then you can decide on the.

B

F

uh Yeah, I think some of the things that um struck me here is that the.

F

um Shawls uh followed that second um request, with the request for the variance at seven percent.

F

And at that point they were um uh intended to accept that if it was granted, so I think they.

F

um Were willing to spend that money at that point, you know to meet that.

F

Requirement and now to go back and say that they want zero percent um affects me is.

F

Problematic, uh I also think that the comments that uh planting those trees will benefit uh no one.

F

Is incorrect because I think planting those trees really benefits everyone.

F

And community in general, I think there are some other options perhaps available to them with.

F

Lighting and perhaps in the sale of a lot, um maybe make it contingent that trees are planted and such.

F

I I definitely feel for the financial hardship, though I'm not sure where we place.

F

A figure on how to determine how how much of a hardship that is, you know, that's where.

F

A quantitative number is hard to come up with.

E

Okay, I'll uh I'll go next, there um kind of agree with what a lot with what craig said.

E

Mr mission, oh, I definitely can understand your and sympathize with your hardship for the matter.

E

I certainly think county staff.

E

Definitely think they definitely feel the same way. um A few things I have about uh the matter.

E

um I do believe the county has tried to work with you as much as they can.

E

um Basically, cutting the number of acres of trees that definitely need.

E

To be planted um so they have granted um a good bit of a variance there. In my opinion,.

E

um Unfortunately, uh the camp, the far station measure here uh as mr double.

E

Best said, unfortunately, is county and state law. um My opinion is, I think, it's a dangerous example.

E

Cassette did not comply with county and state law; they have granted. You, uh like, I say, a decent size.

E

Variance here- and um you know, I think it's it's tough- to grant a whole lot more than that.

E

You know pains my heart to uh you know say that, but unfortunately, as mr bowman said as.

E

Well, I do think the trees. um I looked it up on the map. There uh would be a good thing.

E

For the environment, and also, I think, for the value of the lot as a whole uh going further.

E

So, like mr paskowski said you know, maybe this may open up some other avenues uh with what you can do.

E

With a lot in the future there, um you know it may end up being advantageous to you in the long run.

G

Okay, um it's a very difficult decision. Obviously um I do agree that the placement of the trees.

G

um On you know, the property is probably beneficial, I'm just thinking about how.

G

Surface water would run off. You know in that general direction to help mitigate any.

G

Nutrients running off of the property- and you know benefiting the health and quality of the stream.

G

So I I do agree that you know the trees wouldn't be planted, for you know just to plant trees.

G

But I am, you know sympathetic to your financial situation and you know the variance you know does.

G

State that you know you can't meet this criteria. You know due to undue hardship, financial hardship.

G

A variance could be granted, however, you know it's a variance to that. 20 percent. I do agree that you.

G

Know the county has tried to offer a compromise with the the one and a half acres of trees.

G

And that that would be a beneficial item to add to the property.

E

So I guess it uh this time.

E

Craig and tiffany, if you're ready to vote on this matter, I'll, um entertain a motion to vote.

F

um Yeah, I will um make a motion that we uh deny the uh shawl's request for variance.

E

Mr dixon is that um suitable.

G

I'll, second, that.

E

Okay, uh craig tiffany and myself, uh if you're in favor raise your hand or say aye,.

E

B

Right now, just so we're clear about the decision. Does that mean.

B

um Motion that we deny the application that it goes back to what mr devil this said at.

B

The 1.5 acres or that that's what you're that's part of what you are stating here.

F

That would be my understanding.

E

Yes, I agree, that's that's what my understanding is the motion and the vote would be.

E

That's, mr devil, misses uh 1.58.

G

Yes, I also agree to that. Okay very well. I understand.

B

All right, um this oral decision of the board will become final upon a written decision.

B

Which will be issued within 30 days? uh That concludes the hearing. Thank you.