Carroll County, MD Carroll County Planning and Zoning Commission, 29 Mar 2023

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From YouTube: Carroll County Planning and Zoning Commission Work Session March 29, 2023

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A

Oh you're you're here.

B

um I did just want to add that it's not live streamed, but it's going to be recorded and uploaded tomorrow.

B

Okay, very good, well it'll be obvious when janice gets here, because we'll be able to steer um and of.

C

Course I told several people to watch it online, so I guess maybe they won't yeah. No, not tonight.

D

All right: well, that's the way it goes um all right.

D

Well, I think it is my clock, says it's six o'clock so.

D

Give me one second, all right, so I will go ahead and call the.

D

Planning design commission meeting to order today is march 29th 2023.

D

um Welcome everyone and uh why don't we begin by establishing a quorum? Please.

A

Okay, mr wathers, here miss kirkner, we'll, hopefully be here soon. Mr lester, here mr hoff,.

E

Here, mr kane, here, mr smith, here, commissioner gordon and secretary eisenberg, here.

A

Please let the record reflect that five members are present and we do have a quorum.

D

Very good, thank you. uh Let's stand for the pledge of allegiance, please [applause].

D

Pledge allegiance to the flag of the states of america and to the republic for which it stands.

D

One nation, under god, indivisible with liberty and justice for all, thank you. [Applause].

D

We'll move on to item four, which is review and approval of the agenda. We were sent a revised.

D

Agenda on monday, do we have any other revisions, no just three vision um that was sent on monday.

F

Adding a new item six for community solar and the agricultural zone. We just wanted to bring this to.

F

Your attention and bring it into the line item for this evening. Those were the only changes for.

F

The agenda, all right so with that is their motion to approve the agenda as presented as of monday.

E

I make a motion to approve the agenda as presented. Second all right motion. Second, all in favor all.

D

Right all right that looks unanimous. Thank you. The agenda will stand approved, we'll move on to item.

D

Five, which is the administrative report, I'll turn it over to madam secretary all right good evening.

F

Everyone thank you for being here um and again, as we said earlier, and this will be posted tomorrow,.

F

um We are recording this meeting. The reason is, is because there's a conflict with one of the.

F

Commissioners town halls this evening, so we can't live stream both at the same time, um so those that.

F

Are participating are participating by signing up from our link on our website and logging in.

F

That way, um also for april 18th's meeting. So this is kind of technically taking the place of our.

F

First wednesday of the month work session, um and then our next meeting will be april 18th, which is.

F

Our daytime meeting that meeting will be short and it'll only be limited to two items: we're going to.

F

Try to finish up by 11, if we can. The reason is: is that the commissioners have their budget at that.

F

Time in the afternoon, so we want to make sure that we're wrapped up and done so the commissioners can.

F

Have their budget deliberations and meetings um which will actually be in 003? So that's reason.

F

Why we've added more items than usual to this evening's agenda and the same will be true for.

F

The main um the main meeting as well that first uh may and I'm going to get you the date exactly.

F

um For the the may 3rd evening meeting that will be a longer similar to this type of meeting length.

F

And time and we'll actually have two development review projects on that meeting, since we weren't.

F

Able to put them on the april 18th so just wanted to give you an idea of what's coming up in the.

F

Next, several meetings, um and also, unfortunately, as many of you know, mr kosik, had to step down.

F

From his role in the planning commission, so um we are looking for members so again, if you.

F

Know anyone who you think would be a great fit for this planning commission, please get the word out.

F

um We, I think, we'll be doing a press release and the commissioners um will. Let folks know.

F

As well to apply so um that's all I have for this evening, thank you. Thank you and then.

D

We'll move on to item six, which is the community solar in agricultural zone, moratorium overview.

F

So this evening we have from uh for with us from land and resource management, brenda denny. She was.

F

The main uh staff person um in charge of the community solar text, amendment that happened.

F

Several years ago, um I believe the only person on this commission at that time when this was.

F

Put into place was mr walther, so you may have some recollection of the extensive process that.

F

Brenda and her team went through to flesh out on the community's solar aspect in the.

F

Agricultural zone that was in response to the states pilot study that they had launched at.

F

That time, which actually, I believe now correct me if I'm wrong brenda, went from pilot to fully.

F

um Fully fledged, like the pilot, ended in the states going with the community solar allowance.

F

um For the stage, if the legislation passes the general assembly this term- oh good, okay, yeah, I.

F

Knew it was that that was something happening, um so that's happening, and then um I'm not sure how.

F

Many of you have been paying attention and brenda will go over all of this. um Some of the community.

F

Solar projects that now have made their way through our system to some extent because of that.

F

uh Pilot program in the state of maryland, um we're going through the development review process and.

F

um That drew up some concerns from the surrounding communities, so in response.

F

To that, to kind of reevaluate what our code says, the board of county commissioners decided to have.

F

A six-month moratorium to um specifically figure out, um if there's anything else, that we need to.

F

Do as a county for the code for the community solar in the ag zone, specifically so with that.

F

I'm going to turn it over to brenda to update you where we are in the process.

F

um We are not tu yet, but we wanted to give you the heads up, that this will be something you'll.

F

Be seeing in the upcoming months um so with that I'm going to turn it over to brenda. Thank you.

G

Thank you. Well, I'm gone linda, told you everything so see you see you later.

G

Okay good evening, everybody good evening um can I share my screen or for the powerpoint.

G

Thank you. Can everybody see that.

H

Yes, I can see it. Thank you. Yes, I can too thank you.

G

Trying to move it on my screen here.

F

Now it's just a beautiful castle.

F

Yeah very good: now it's on our skin.

H

But I I think that castle could use a little solar. I'm just saying.

G

We're gonna meet next time. Okay, so I I I'm not here to give you an extensive.

G

Presentation or anything I really just wanted to as linda said, give you.

G

um Kind of a heads up that this is happening because you'll be part of the process and it.

G

Will be coming to you to review and recommend what you know what's being proposed or provide.

G

A recommendation on what's being proposed, so I'm just giving you a heads up as linda mentioned.

G

um You know this moratorium was adopted recently and if mr weathers was the only one that was on.

G

The planning commission at the time, then you know it- could help to just have a little heads.

G

Up and maybe get familiar with uh what is currently in place that will be on you know.

G

Subject to revision? Excuse me, brenda. Can you do this in full screen mode or presentation mode, so.

F

We can see the full slide, we're still seeing the note side on the sidebar just to make it easier to.

F

See- and it still kind of shows it too, and no now it's showing the other okay, it just might.

F

Be the screen situation, but that's fine. Thank you. It's probably because they have two threes.

G

um So this pro that when the when we were initially started this process, um two.

G

Years ago solar was allowed commercial solar, so we have accessory solar and we have commercial, solar.

G

Accessory solar is, you know what somebody might have on their house. I mean a farm, any any property.

G

Could have it, but it's intended basically to serve that property. Only it's not intended to be.

G

A facility that you know you are actually selling the energy for commercial solar is.

G

Just the opposite: it's intended for that energy to be, you know, a commercial operation. It's put.

G

Back into the grid and sold in some manner of fashion, so community solar is different than.

G

um Some types of commercial solar in that it is a subscription-based operation. So it's much smaller.

G

Than what would typically be considered a utility or large scale, operation and.

G

um All of the the person who operates it or the entity that operates it sells subscriptions to the.

G

Facility and the descriptions are um limited in you know what you can purchase based on. You know.

G

Like your average bill, so you you can't subscribe to much more than what you would normally be using.

G

So that's the difference between the commerce like commercial in general, and this subset of.

G

Commercial called community solar, so all cover any type of solar commercial. Solar is allowed in.

G

Our commercial industrial zone, but two years ago the board asked that we come up with a proposal.

G

That would allow community solar facilities on remaining portions in the agricultural zone.

G

And part of the reason for that was you know that probably one of the main reasons for that was.

G

um A push from the state, you know the state has energy goals that include renewable energy, so.

G

You know primarily solar wind, that we have to that. They want to reach very quickly. So there's.

G

Been a lot of pressure for local jurisdictions to have areas available for solar development.

G

And every year we've seen stuff come through the legislature. You know proposing to do this or that.

G

And some of it would be mandating. You know that certain amounts of solar have to be required, so.

G

Part of the effort to get ahead of that and show that we're making a good faith effort.

G

To actually provide opportunities for some kinds of solar this- that was the main impetus for this.

G

This effort, so in the fall of 2020 the um we had some concepts that we brought out to some.

G

Stakeholder groups and got their feedback and um then went back to the commissioners.

G

In december, with this concept, they gave us some directional and some changes to make.

G

And then january and february we went through the process to review those changes with the planning.

G

Commission and then the planning commission made a recommendation to the board the board.

G

um Worked through that and then adopted an amendment to the zoning code in may of 2021.

G

So, although this could completely change just to give you context, I wanted to just quickly review.

G

The current requirements that are in the zoning code and so community solar facilities in carroll.

G

County are limited to two megawatts in size and two, a megawatt is roughly five acres. You know.

G

And so two megabots would be roughly 10 acres of panel and then there's associated infrastructure.

G

uh The state has used to cap it at two megawatts and now they're capping it at five megawatts. So.

G

It's increased since we adopted this, but because we, the commissioners, adopted it at two megawatts.

G

It's still capped at two megawatts for carroll county there's, also a 20 acre maximum size of.

G

The area that's used for the solar facility, which includes the panels as well as all.

G

Associated infrastructure, which includes access roads, inverters landscape, buffers everything.

G

Associated with the facility there's a requirement, because these are on remaining portions and.

G

Those most of the remaining portions have already taken the residential development rights.

G

That's why the remaining portions, a conservation ethan, is required for the portion of the property.

G

That is not under solar and part of the reason. For that, the main reason really was there was a.

G

Lot of concern about these facilities expanding in the future and the conservation ease that it.

G

Was a mechanism to try to address that concern by limiting the ability for utilities to expand.

G

Of course, the site plan is required, it is a commercial use and so that plan would be going.

G

Before the planning commission for review and approval, the requirements also say no productive.

G

Topsoil should be removed and there should be no impact to environmental resources. One of the.

G

Requirements that maybe it was a little more progressive than we've seen in a lot of other.

G

Places at least we think so is agricultural co-location, and since that time the buzzword has.

G

Now become agrivoltaic, so if you hear agricultaics, that means that there's a solar facility with an.

G

Agricultural use on the same space so for our requirements it had to be, they had either grades.

G

Erased some kind of crop which would probably be wouldn't be a row crop, but it would it could.

G

Be a specialty crop, it could be grazing sheep and or the other option would be to achieve a.

G

Solar pollinator friendly solar designation for maryland, department of natural resources.

G

um Being and the reason for that being that you know the agriculture needs, these.

G

um Then it had a requirement for landscape offer which, in the regulations that does say it should.

G

Provide full screening at time of installation there's a 40-foot setback requirement, 15 foot.

G

Height requirement and the reason it's that high is to allow the grazing underneath.

G

um Under the utility lines have to be undergrounded, and then it require the.

G

Decommissioning planned, which also requires a public works agreement and a bond so that.

G

If the company is not around when it needs to be removed, we use the bond to do that.

G

So the moratorium was adopted by the board on march 9th and, as linda mentioned, it'll.

G

Be a six-month moratorium and during that time we'll be the processing review permitting and.

G

Construction of community solar energy generating systems in the agricultural zone will be halted.

G

So the board gave us direction on the march 23rd regarding the applicability, so we're talking about.

G

Community solar only in the agricultural zone, the issues that we need to address were identified so.

G

Commissioner, bigliotti had presented a series of points with a number of concerns that he.

G

Put together based on what he had been hearing and if you're not familiar with those points, you.

G

Could the link there you can go to that powerpoint and read what his points were and then, as well as.

G

Some additional staff identified issues that need clarifying, so you know having been in place for.

G

Two years now there are some things that, as we go through the development review process, we realize.

G

Need some cleaning up or any clarification so we'll be doing that at the same time,.

G

And to to do this process, the commissioners asked us to put together a work group.

G

And staff we're in the process of forming that, so they can provide some input on the concerns and.

G

Then we can go back to the board with some options to consider for the different issues and concerns.

G

The work group- and this is from the word direction- will consist of two members of the.

G

Agricultural compute community that oppose solar in agricultural areas to adjacent property owners.

G

Who currently propose community solar facilities and csegs? It stands for community solar, solar.

I

Energy generating systems, um a representative from the solar industry and then a property owner who.

G

Has a proposed facility on their property and then we have plant staff from those.

G

Those three departments I work in land and resource management, so myself and.

G

The director are facilitating the work group and then we'll also have staff from.

G

These three agencies that will be working with us and supporting this effort as well.

G

Yep, so the process is, uh we are on the sec. The first blue block there.

G

And like so, we have six months to go this done so we're putting the work group together now.

G

The work group will hold several meetings to go, do and discuss the main points and issues talk.

G

About applicability, come up with feedback and options, then we'll go back to the commissioners.

G

Give them a briefing on where you know the discussions that are happening if we get any.

I

Further direction, we'll go back to the work group for another meeting to wrap that up.

G

Then back to the commissioners to review what the you know, the options are and what's been.

G

Discussed and then they'll give us directions when they're ready to then go. Take this to you.

G

um For review and to look at the code, change and you'll see that's the yellow block here.

G

So we review the draft code changes and then you'll provide a recommendation to the board.

G

And, of course, that that's requirement under state law that the planning commission has to review any.

G

Zoning code changes and make a recommendation to the board before the board can make any changes.

G

So your recommendation then goes back to the board commissioners, they'll review and.

G

Discuss the proposed amendments and decide what's going to go out for public hearings.

G

The public hearing will be held, then they discuss deliberate and decide what they're going to adopt.

G

So I mean that's all happening between now and sometime in early september.

G

And so if you have any other, if you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them, but you.

G

Can also find more information. We've got an easy url here. It's perrycountymd.gov community, solar, so.

G

We are going to be posting uh information on and updates on the process documents. Commissioners.

G

um Powerpoints that we've given are there at the place for the public and anybody to.

G

Go to be updated on what's going on with this process or feel free to contact me if you have.

G

Questions about community, solar or anything in the process um that might help you. You.

G

Know understand: what's going on leading up to us coming back to you with the proposed code revision.

G

Does anybody have questions.

D

So brenda that was very uh helpful. I do have a couple of questions. The moratorium does it. It.

D

Does it have any effect on the commercial solar or is it only community solar? Well.

G

Particular um the moratorium was only applying to community solar and only community solar in the.

G

Agricultural zone, so it will not affect anything that happened in the commercial and industrial.

G

District: okay, yeah. My question was a poor question. Thank you. No problem. It's hard to understand that.

D

The um I just think it's important for those that are watching this to understand. It doesn't.

D

It's not a moratorial mode, all solar everywhere in the county, under all circumstances, um the.

D

The work group I just had a question on from the agricultural community. I didn't.

D

Quite understand the box: was it folks from the ag community some that support.

D

This and some that are opposed to it I mean: is there a there's, a balance there.

G

Well, that what we were directed to do by the commissioners was to.

G

um Have two members from the agricultural community that oppose.

G

Solar in agricultural zone- um and they specifically mentioned the form bureau so.

G

We'll we'll be asking representatives from farm bureau to sit on the work group.

D

Is there a is there any member from the agriculture community that is going to be on the.

D

Work group that is in favor of this, it just seems you'd, want to have a balance there right right. I.

G

Understand I think that what the commissioners thought was that the property owner, who has a.

G

Proposed project represents somebody from the agricultural community who supports solar, no okay,.

D

um That's uh I had read in the paper, I think a comment from somebody and I might not. I read.

D

It I just skipped it, but I thought there was a comment somewhere that said that no one, no farmer.

D

In the ag community supported this, um and I might have gotten that wrong but in my recollection, is.

D

When we were going through this process, we heard from a number of people in the ag community that.

D

Were farmers and many were opposed to it, but there were also folks that came forward that.

D

Were in favor of it um so to the extent anyone thinks that that's the that it's one-sided, my.

D

My recollection is, as we heard from the community, we were very sensitive to wanting to hear from.

D

The farming community and my sense, my recollection, is we had both sides of that argument. Come to us.

D

Matt you're in the farming community. I see you have your green light on yeah. I would. I would.

C

Say there's probably and for it, but there are some on both sides, I'm kind of neutral. I mean I.

C

Know that you know, as a county, we're worried about uh what might happen if we don't have enough solar.

C

And the state mandates something I think, that's what the former commissioners were worried about.

C

And that's why they went in this direction. So I try to tell them that, but it doesn't.

C

Mean they're not opposed, so I think it'll be pretty easy to find two that are opposed.

D

Yeah you are right about that. We did. Part of the presentation was uh that if the county.

D

Wasn't interested in doing this at some point, the state was likely to mandate it.

D

And the county would have love a voice. At least I mean what farmers really don't want are 100.

C

Acre solar farms- and I think the commissioner's view was this- might alleviate that happening.

C

At some point, but you still don't know that, because in a lot of counties, that's the case.

D

Yeah well the last thing I'll say: I'm sorry p go ahead right. You know I I was just gonna say.

H

Brenda did I hear you correct to say that you know if you did it wall-to-wall.

H

You could get basically one megawatt out of an acre. Is that what I heard you say.

G

uh Basically, I mean the industry standard is that it roughly takes five acres per megawatt.

G

Of solar panels, okay, so you know it's curious to me that we said that you could do a 20 acre.

H

We had a 20 acre max. When you know 10 to 15 would would have probably sufficed. You know, assuming.

H

That topography and and everything else worked worked in that way was that why we said we made.

H

It 20 was to give a little extra cushion there. Why did we say 20 and not something more along the.

H

Lines of 15 to alleviate these fears of of these mega fields of of solar panels. Why did we say 20.

H

I'm curious right: well, I mean whether it was 12 or 20. 2 megawatts isn't going to take any more space.

G

On 12 than it will on 20, then it will in 12. but yeah. Basically, what you said is is accurate. That.

G

You know you in some cases the facility may not be right up against the road, so it'll need an access.

G

Road and that needs to be part of that 20 acres. It has to include the landscaping and the inverter.

G

And sometimes um based on play conditions, they may not, there might be a gap between groups of.

G

Some panels, so that's primarily why okay, all right and the other thing is if.

H

Go ahead, I'm sorry! Okay, the the other potential, too, is, if you want to put certain types of.

G

um Specialty crops underneath the panels, sometimes what they'll do is they'll space.

G

The panels out more to allow more sun to get through for those crops right that makes total.

H

Sense and then the last thing I'll ask is: can you forward this this presentation to us please.

H

I I didn't get it in advance of the meeting and I'd love to kind of flip through it again.

G

Sure laura has and I'm sure she can afford it. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yes, brenda.

B

Scented, I can forward that too tonight, right and and we'll also post it on that webpage right. There.

G

So that'll be another way it can be accessed by you or by anybody else.

D

Any other questions for uh brendan well brenda. Thank you for the uh for the presentations very.

D

Helpful- and I know the commissioner look forward to being part of this process as uh as this moves.

D

Forward so thank you sure. Well if we stay on track, then I look forward to seeing you in june.

D

Take care, thank you. Okay. Thank you. We'll move on to item seven on our agenda, which is water and.

D

Sewer triennial update and we're getting an intern introduction tonight from uh price wagner, a price.

D

Good morning or hi good evening, sorry- and can I share my screen- please laura.

J

Thanks so yeah just before you know my screen, I'm able to share what I'm going to do is.

J

Is that everybody able to see that yep? Yes, so you've been before you for the aspect of.

J

Amendments to our water restore master plan. Well, this is the trilineal update.

J

Which occurs roughly every three years and what happens with that? Is it's state mandated.

J

And is the so in essence, so you know, since everybody, except for mr waters is probably.

J

This is new to them for the water sewer aspect of things. uh What exactly is the.

J

Water and sewer, you know, what's the master plan, so it's based on title ix, subtitle.

J

Five of the health environmental article of the annotated code of maryland, and it.

J

Requires carroll county to review and adopt a water and sewer master plan every three years.

J

So the big thing is the carroll county. We don't have a central authority overseeing.

J

Water and or sewer services, so we work with all the different municipalities, eight of them as well.

J

As the freedom area which the county owns for the water and sewer service, we work with them.

J

To incorporate them into our water sewer master plan, and the objective has there's three main.

J

Importance of the objective, one is to make sure there's an ample water supply to be collected for.

J

Current development, as well as future development that could occur also that there's uh wastewater.

J

Is able to be collected and delivered to to points that are suited for that distribution?.

J

And then finally, wastewater can be either treated before is discharged. The state.

J

Waters in compliance with water quality standards and in some cases in the city of westminster, has.

J

Just begun this, they are doing a pilot for a water wastewater, reuse program to incorporate and add.

J

Hopefully, a new source of water, so the county government is required to develop these plans.

J

And we're so the government body is record, we're the coordinating agencies. We work with.

J

All the towns and the providers and their staff, uh whether it's their planning staff.

J

In conjunction also with their water, water and sewer facility staff, to get this, this plan worked.

J

On and put together- and it's not only public systems also, there are some private systems within.

J

Within the within the county, so you know why do we update the plan, like I said, is required by.

J

The state um be updated every three years and the last update was done and adopted and approved by.

J

The state of maryland in july of 2019. now since then, we've done 15 total amendments or if you want.

J

To look at it this way um we have done roughly six five cycles that total 15 amendments each.

J

um So we spring of 2020 spring of 21 fall of 21 spring and 22 and follow 22.. So pretty much.

J

Every twice a year, we're always amending the plan and that's typically comes from the fact.

J

That either a owner has come to us and say that they may not want to be a part of the.

J

System or they need to get into the system, uh so we talked with the provider to see if they're, if.

J

There's available capacity for that aspect or if the provider comes to us and says at this time.

J

We have a new development coming in and they were in future, which is seven to ten years out.

J

Then they look at that and say they're ready to go. Let's can we bring them into the priority aspect.

J

So we changed the service area maps to incorporate a property into where it needs to go as well.

J

As update the the charts for the the demand is needed now, the water and sewer the plan and text.

J

Amendments, these amendments actually supersede the 2019 plan. So if whatever plan, whatever amendment.

J

Was done if it was in, let's say the town of manchester and it updated the map if that map now.

J

Is based off of the newest map there, not the map in 2019 as well as demands, and that type of thing.

J

So the process I distributed and worked with the towns is distributed, their chapters for water and.

J

Sewer as well as the maps for them to look at the uses data to see how much is being how much is.

J

Being used as well as infrastructure projects that are in the works that could potentially expand the.

J

System help alleviate uh when it comes to sewer, inflow and infiltration, which is considered, which.

J

Is called ini or is water areas that have leaks where they're pumping more water than they're.

J

Billing for and when you look at the sewer side, you're, actually their flows are higher going to.

J

The sewer plant and they are actually being built for so that shows you have more water coming from.

J

The ground into your system going to the sewer plant, so we look at all that to sort of see what.

J

The average daily flows are what the demands are, if any of their wells or their own wells.

J

If they're have the ability to if they've been increased or they're offline for some reason,.

J

um So we've worked with them to make changes since the last trilonial update and look at all the maps.

J

Looking at when it comes to the maps where, where the lines are, if the lines are up to date, if a new.

J

System has come in uh the good. A good example is stonegate here in westminster in 2017 or actually.

J

I'm sorry 2019, that was not a shovel, had not hit the ground, yet it was just starting now that is.

J

Close to being built out so that is now shown more as an existing service area and we have.

J

Lines that showed that they are now lines in the ground once everybody is comfortable with what has.

J

Been presented so I'll received the information from the towns from the providers and incorporate.

J

It in their exact chapters- and we send drafts back and forth to make sure that I understood.

J

What they're saying everything looks good as same the same goes with the maps, so once we feel.

J

Everybody is on the same page and says yes, this is what we we're talking about, and this is what we.

J

We're hoping for the end of weeks, I go in front of their their town councils or not the account, but.

J

The planning commissions and ask them to certify their sections. Their chapters for consistency with.

J

Their the most recent or most current water, and so the most current comprehensive plan.

J

So what have I done so far, all the staff, the meeting was musical municipal staff is.

J

Complete I've worked with everyone um back and forth multiple times to get all the information.

J

And make sure everything is concise and I've also made updates to the non-municipal chapters. So the.

J

Water resources, chapter uh working on demographics, the zoning and reference maps. We have maps that.

J

Show of areas you know the different rock rock formations different soils as well as um that.

J

Type of thing so far, I've presented a three three planning commissions: the city of taneytown city of.

J

Westminster and the italian view winter, they have all certified consistency with their most recent.

J

Comprehensive plan and in the very first slide you may see, you may have seen a small little blur that.

J

Is the the plan cover that that was designed for this current section? So what do I have coming up.

J

Next, the town of manchester chapter is pretty much complete and I'm looking to go in front of them on.

J

April the 18th ask their plenty commission for consistency with their 2018 comprehensive plan.

J

And I'm currently working with the towns of hampstead union bridge and mount airy to finalize.

J

Their texts, maps and tables and looking to go in front of these town of union bridge on the 20th.

J

Mount ariel the 24th and hampstead on the 26th for their consistency, statements and certifications.

J

And at the same time, in the main, I am working with our bureau of utilities to finalize just the data.

J

For pleasant valley, water and sewer systems and bar killed water system and then finalize the data.

J

For the hampstead sewer system, as well as the freedom, water and sewer system infrastructures.

J

And then, after all, that is, is done and complete. I will come in front of the planning commission.

J

Again on may the 16th, or to request certification of the entire document, as well as the chapters.

J

For hampstead and freedom to have those certified consistent with our our plans.

J

And ask for a recommendation to forward that to the county commission.

J

So that is sort of a brief overview of the water and sewer master plan of what we're.

J

um What it's about and if there's any questions I'll, be more than happy to answer them. Thank you.

D

Any questions for uh for price.

D

I uh I just want to know how you managed to go to so many meetings. It seems like a.

D

Marathon for you to be attending all of these in the meeting it can be, but I am fortunate.

J

Enough to have a a bunch of great colleagues that they have also uh they've offered to them. So when.

J

It comes to the certifications to learn and if it's, because some of the meetings do fall on the.

J

Same night, so I do have to have the ability to hopefully have some help and I've had. They have.

J

Said yes, they are more than happy and if they're able to to to do it, um so they actually help in.

J

They do the certification aspect, I get all the documents and everything for them. So pretty much.

J

When they get there, they just have to say here: we just need to certification and all the questions.

J

Hopefully been answered beforehand, um something that you know monday night, I did have new windsor.

J

Certification also, at the same time, tony town was looking at through theirs and a question.

J

Came up in new winter and uh texted the planner, who was going to be talking with tawny town to.

J

Say if this happens to occur, I gave her some just what happened with some guidance and she.

J

Responded back she was like, I would have had no clue what to do in that situation. So thank.

J

You for for letting me you know, give me that to me, but luckily nothing came, walked out of the.

J

Ordinary, so it can be a marathon, but it's I'm sort of trying to get down to a good science.

D

Well, the reason I made the comment was that your thoroughness, honestly, I think, gives us.

D

More comfort when you're bringing it back to us, knowing that you've taken this process so.

D

Seriously you're attending these things or your colleagues are you're answering the questions.

D

um And it's something that's done comprehensively and thoroughly and seriously so.

D

um We very much appreciate that price. Yes, thank you yeah. I definitely I multiple phone.

J

Calls emails back and forth with, with all their municipalities and the providers, and before I even.

J

Go to their planning commissions, I send everything to them for one last review to make sure.

J

Everything looks concise to what they're look, what they sent and so yeah. I want to make sure.

J

I get we get it done correctly, the first time and then so. When we come to our planning commission.

J

It is not a rubber stamp, but it's a they. Have you have the the know-held? Yes, it.

J

Was done, concise and thorough, so what is being provided is is very good information.

H

Bryce, I would ask, I would ask one question that that is seems to be coming up here in the freedom.

H

District and and I'm not asking for an answer tonight, but I would just ask you to kind of.

H

um You know check your decimal points and and everything concerning the data, because, what's.

H

Being quite questioned here in this area is: has the county in a with in a desire to.

H

um Enable some developers to have increased density on on proposed developments have we.

H

Given some of the capacity that was earmarked towards existing homes that are currently on.

H

Sewer and they have smaller lots where, when and if their septic systems fail, they're going to have to.

H

Connect to I don't understand it all, but it's my understanding that they will not have an option.

H

But they're going to have to go onto sewer, and so, if they're in that priority sewer area you know, is.

H

There is the capacity that was earmarked for those homes that are going to need sewer access. Has that.

H

Capacity been given to proposed developments, and so I just ask you to pay attention yeah. We.

F

Have gone over this multiple times with that community group and specific people, this was.

F

Specifically addressed in the freedom plan that very thing: yes, we did a hundred percent I've.

F

Told joe grundy that I've told other members have expressed that concern multiple multiple times. We.

F

Absolutely did we took smaller lots that were on well and septic. Were we, the county, have no.

F

Cip, to extend the lines to those area, however, what we did do was reserve 20.

F

Additional percent capacity in the system, if and when the time should come, that there.

F

Is failures because we have not been alerted by the health department or anyone else that.

F

There are systemic failures in that system, but we do have a safeguard that if something should.

F

Happen we, the county, can look to transfer those folks over and actually we're. Looking now for.

F

Future ahead, what it would cost to actually put the lines in it's very owners, we're not taking.

F

It lightly because the citizens would have to pay a considerable amount of money to hook up.

F

In addition to what the millions of dollars will cost the county to extend those lines.

F

So this has been addressed. I'm sorry! If I'm coming off a little harsh, but we've.

F

Talked about this multiple times, I think even planning commission and I feel, like you know,.

F

This group is beating this drum that really isn't there to beat, and so I just wanted to.

H

Make it very clear we have done our due diligence on this yeah in getting an answer like that and.

H

And having you know, prices well, you know echo that too I mean it just again that just helps.

H

Us us, as a commission, you know, answer those questions and say that we've asked you know.

H

So I appreciate you addressing it linda. Thank you. Thank you all right. Any other questions for price.

D

All right price, we can turn you loose tonight. Thank you for your presentation. Thank you.

D

uh With that we'll move on to item uh eight manchester annexation, number 41, patapsco 91.

D

Llc- and I think hannah weber is standing by to uh present to us, hello hannah. Yes, I am I'm the lucky.

I

One now so, um as you presented, we are here for a manchester annexation with us. Today, I believe, is.

I

The town administrator of manchester mr perricone, as well as kelly schaefer, who is representing.

I

The property owner and the petitioner of this annexation um they'll be here to answer any of.

I

Your questions um as they come up. Can you guys see my screen the presentation? Yes, we can okay, perfect.

I

So just for tonight we have an informational briefing I'll be coming back to you all on.

I

April 18th for your formal recommendation to the board of county commissioners getting started as.

I

We said this is um in the town of manchester. We are like right in the middle of a residential area.

I

If you follow my cursor, this is the annexation area. It's approximately 13 acres with access.

I

On jammer drive through a private drive and then also um access on washington way via via briar way,.

I

One thing to note about this annexation is that it is in an existing enclave. So, as we all know,.

I

Enclaves are a big no-no for annexations and you can see the big corporate limits around and this.

I

Small donut hole, which includes the annexation area. um You can see we're in the southern part of.

I

The corporate limits of manchester and the enclave includes this 13-acre parcel annexation area as.

I

Well, as four other parcels, I'm going back to this plot, you can see the annexation number 14. That.

I

Is surrounding the annexation area was actually enacted in 1977 and then this annexation number.

I

18, which is on jammer drive, was actually enacted in 1979., so it was nothing that was obviously.

I

Done recently- and it was probably done before maryland- state law prohibited the enclave rule.

I

So back to this particular annexation, as we said, it's approximately 13.92 acres.

I

It's um slightly improved with some buildings, but no one resides on the annexation area.

I

The current zoning of the annexation area is our 40 000, residential and conservation in the county.

I

The petitioners have requested the town of manchester to be placed in the r 10.

I

000 residential in the public conservation zone as well, the plan is to keep the conservation.

I

Zone the same when going into the town and just move the r40 000 portion to the r 10 000 portion.

I

So, since the r 10 000 zoning district is 50 percent more dense than the r40.

I

000 zoning district in the county, a zoning waiver- is required for this.

I

Annexation- and it has been requested by the petitioner and the town.

I

The designated land use is medium density residential. This is taken.

I

From the 2018 manchester comprehensive plan.

I

This annexation area is actually in the no service area for both water and sewer. It's.

I

Kind of uncommon, because it's in the growth area, but as we just heard price wagner talking about.

I

The triennial update one of the updates for the town of manchester is going to be.

I

To bring the entire annexation area into the priority service area for both water.

I

And sewer to aid in the development of the property when it is annexed.

I

So all that we are recommending is the town of manchester give public notice by posting.

I

The property prior to the date of the public hearing and notifying all of the adjoining.

I

Property owners next steps. As I said, we are going to come back before you all on april 18th, for your.

I

Recommendation to the county commissioners, and then we have time reserved on april.

I

20Th and april 27th with the board to further um decision on the zoning waiver and comment letter.

I

That does it for me um jeff. If you want to turn it over to the representatives for the town or.

I

Kelly yeah uh does mr perricon or kelly. Do you have anything you want to add.

D

Kelly, I can see you talking and your microphone appears beyond, but I can't hear you.

F

Kelly check your gear wheel in the upper right hand, corner.

F

Sometimes you need to refresh the um microphone.

K

Anything. Yes! Yes, I can hear you now. ah Okay, all right! Thank you linda. I appreciate that.

K

It's a good insight for future meetings um good evening, everyone uh kelly schaefer miller, I'm.

K

Here tonight, on behalf of the applicants or petitioners, in this case, patapsco91 llc.

K

um I also have linda alexander from clsi and um one of the property owners on the line too.

K

Just in case there are any questions- and I know that also mr perricone from manchester is on to.

K

Answer any questions specific to the town, I really don't have much to add. I think hannah.

K

Did a great presentation, but I am here and available and happy to answer any questions.

K

um That this planning commission has this has been through um the you know, different municipalities.

K

Review these annexations differently before they get to the county for review, so this has.

K

Been through a little bit more of a thorough planning commission in mayor council review.

K

At from the town, then other municipalities would have so there's been lots of discussions.

K

um And hopefully I have all the answers if, if you do have any questions tonight,.

D

So the only question I have, which is the question we typically ask on.

D

These things is: has the town taken an official position on this in support of the annexation.

D

um Or is that still pending or are they against it? I will let mr perricone chime in if his opinion.

K

Differs but um they I believe that so far the position has been that they support. This did go.

K

Through an amendment, it was initially submitted with a request for r10 over the entire portion.

K

Of the property and through discussions with the town's planning, commission and mayor and council.

K

um And just some code clarifications on our part, we amended the request to keep.

K

The existing conservation, zoned portion of the property conservation zones and the remainder.

K

Our 10 zone and in doing that, we have shown kind of rough concept plans to the town that show 14.

K

Lots on the r-10 portion here, which has it's my understanding, that any approved annexation will.

K

Then be subject to kind of a lot maximum at the town through an annexation agreement. So all of.

K

That's kind of been talked about and because of all of those discussed and clarifications.

K

I I believe it's fair to say that now the town is supportive. Thank you, mr perry, county.

D

You may have to find your uh wheel too. I can't I can't hear you.

L

No not yet how about now? Yes, yes, well done well done. My apologies, um alex periconi for the town.

M

Of manchester, at the december 20th meeting in 22 of the town of manchester planning commission, they.

M

Did uh recommend to the mayor and council to accept this annexation uh with just basically.

M

The same points um miss miller has outlined: it was accepted uh in january by the town council.

M

And mayor, and they I've scheduled public hearings for it. I believe we're doing our april 11th town.

M

Council meeting for a public hearing and then it'll be voted on for final acceptance from.

M

The town excellent good to know, thank you very much any any any other comments on this tonight.

D

Is uh obviously just um trying to find it sort of an introduction, I guess we're not taking any.

D

Action tonight, if there's anything else, that uh uh anyone would like to add for our information.

D

We always appreciate it. You said this was going to be 14. Lots is the plan for this piece of property.

K

That's the concept plan that's been prepared by clsi, they haven't gone to the extent of you know.

K

Preparing a full site plan or anything but based on a concept drawing that is.

K

um That's what we believe would work- um and I may have missed this part and.

E

If I did, I apologize I'm assuming that the town of manchester is not going to have any.

E

I guess financial responsibility for extending water and sewer down into these lots.

K

Well, we will work with the town on you know resolving all of that. There.

K

In any of the site plan process- and there will be public works agreements.

K

And bonding and all of that, but yes, it's, my understanding that.

K

um You know the developer will bear the cost of extending public water and sewer. Oh.

D

Very good, even any other questions. I am good all right. Thank you. Thank you for that. Anyone else.

D

All right: well, we very much appreciate um all of you being here this evening and being available.

D

To answer questions we know everyone's busy and we thank you for making yourselves available.

D

For us and providing information to us, so thank you very much and we'll look forward to seeing.

D

This presented at the uh at the next meeting. Thank you, everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks.

D

So we will go on now to item nine, the transportation.

D

Master plan, something we've heard a little bit about.

D

Claire, we can see you talking, but we can't hear you call these gear wheel issues. Sorry guys.

N

How about now? Yes, yes, perfect, okay, great laura! Can you do that? One more time make me presenter. Sorry.

N

Oh, we I figured it out just kidding yeah, I was gonna say it's you already.

N

So um everyone can see my screen.

N

Correct, okay, great all right so again, good evening, mary lynn- and I are with you this evening-.

N

um To present um or wrap up the planned roadway section- um and this is chapter six of the.

N

Transportation master plan, um so I'm gonna start with tawny, town and then mary is going to wrap up.

N

With the new windsor and union bridge areas, so just stop me at any point: if you have questions.

N

Okay, so tiny town is located in the northwestern portion of the county. The.

N

Current roadway system provides commuter access, southeast to westminster, northwest.

N

To emmitsburg west into frederick county in north end of pennsylvania,.

N

20 of taneytown residents commute to westminster and 12 to frederick and baltimore counties.

N

25 of tony town workers travel from within the sub-area and 25 from pennsylvania.

N

um Tiny town's growth rate is anticipated to be low on a regional level, but the highest rate for.

N

The county and traffic congestion in the sub area is modest, um there's a light congestion.

N

Along maryland, 140 in the pm peak hours at maryland, 194 and grand drive chevron drive.

N

So staff is recommending 13 roads in the 20 town area for adoption.

N

Into the transportation master plan, there's one state highway project.

N

Four plan major streets and eight planned neighborhood connections.

N

Okay, so our one state highway project is maryland, 77, also known as middleburg.

N

Road, this is from the frederick county line to maryland 194 in kemar.

N

On the section of 77 is located southwest of taneytown and northwest of union bridge.

N

It's 1.5 miles of two-lane reconstruct the highway functions as a principal arterial.

N

And the project is in state, highway administration's highway needs inventory document.

N

And at this time the project has not been identified as a priority for the county.

N

um So we have four plan major streets. As I said, an eight-plan neighborhood connections included.

N

In the plan you can see from the map that all of the plan roadways are either within.

N

Taneytown's growth area or just outside, and the county and city staff have have met several.

N

Times since 2021 to discuss the plan and have agreed upon the following roads for inclusion.

N

So um the first plan major street is key road crossing. It's located in eastern tawny.

N

Town, uh it's halfway in the city limits and entirely within 20 towns, growth area.

N

It's a half mile of plan, road roadway from stumptown road to old, tony town pike crossing over.

N

Maryland 140 um just east of the circle so from stump down to old tawny, town crossing number, 140.

N

um The road is associated with future residential and commercial development.

N

um It will add to the overall connectivity of the roadway network providing alternative routes for.

N

Local vehicles, its future plan, functional classification, is undetermined. As of now.

N

So our second plan, major street robertsville road extended, is located in the northern area of tawny.

N

Town, partially in the city limits and entirely within the growth area, it's a 0.4 mile extension.

N

Of the northern terminus of the existing roberts mill road from pump house road to harney road.

N

So this is the existing roberts mill road from pump house road to harney road.

N

The extension will provide access to development when adjacent property and provide an alternative.

N

East-West connection uh between 194 and harney, road parallel to west view, drive.

N

Westview drive and it's plan. Functional classification is a minor collector.

N

um The third plan major street is the.

N

um Tawny town greenway, also known as the antrim boulevard extension.

N

It is located in the south and western area of the city, partially within city limits and.

N

Entirely within taneytown's growth area, it is a two and a half mile planned roadway from the.

N

Terminus of antrim boulevard at travanian, road to maryland, 140 northwest of the city square.

N

At about the halfway point, the road is planned to cross over maryland 194.

N

So, starting at the terminus of antrim boulevard over 194.

N

um And to maryland 140., so this is the on the square of tawny town right here.

N

um The project will redirect truck traffic and through traffic away from downtown and away from.

N

The intersection of maryland 194 and 140., it will also provide redundancy in the network.

N

Improving access and connectivity to a large amount of undeveloped, industrial land, south.

N

And southwest of town, it's planned, functional classification is undetermined at this time.

N

And the tontitown bypass is included in the approved fy24 priority letter, not as.

N

A top priority, but as a project to which the county is committed.

N

um The party letter requests mdot investigate the efficacy of reevaluating the potential.

N

For the tontitown bypass for inclusion in the state's highway needs inventory.

N

Are there any questions regarding the um bypass or greenway.

D

I don't think so: okay.

N

All right moving on the last plan, major street is worthington boulevard.

N

um It's located in the northern, in northern tawny, town partially in the city limits and.

N

Entirely within the growth area, it's a 1.4 mile planned roadway from fringer.

N

Road to the future, taneytown greenway crossing over harney, road and 140.

N

To freya road crosses over harney 140 um and uh to the uh um tiny town, greenway or bypass right here.

N

A worthington boulevard is proposed to serve future development in northern tawny town. It's.

N

Intended to be part of an overall roadway network providing alternative routes for local vehicles,.

N

um And it's planned: functional classification is a collector road.

N

Right so allendale lane extended is our first planned neighborhood connection. It's located.

N

In southwestern portion of the city partially incorporated and entirely within the growth area,.

N

It's a 0.6 mile extension of the existing allendale lane to the proposed tawny town.

N

Greenway, so this is the existing allendale lane and then to the greenway, which connects into the.

N

Antrim boulevard, travinian intersection, this extension will aid in connecting um 194 and.

N

140 and will provide access for development of the industrial property. It's planned, functional.

N

Classification is local roadway and if you recall from chapter five on this plan, roadway, including.

N

The short extension extension to antrim boulevard to the planned roadway, including this section.

N

um Is one of the most promising potential improvements.

N

For a second plan, neighborhood connection is on crouse mill, road realignment.

N

It's located to the west of the city limits, but within the growth area it's a 300 foot.

N

Realignment of the existing krauss mill road to allow for the suitable intersection with proposed.

N

Planned neighborhood connection shower road, so the highlighted road is cross mill, realignment.

N

This dark blue dotted line is shower road which we'll get to in a couple slides.

N

um The realignment includes the termination of kraus mill road at a cul-de-sac away.

N

From the 194 in intersection, so um a cul-de-sac, possibly right in this area,.

N

And then the functional classification is a local roadway.

N

So deal road relocated um is located in uh in eastern tawny town and is not located within.

N

Or east of the town, I'm sorry and is not located within the growth area or priority funding area.

N

It's a 0.4 mile realignment of the existing roadway.

N

um uh The existing road has a sharp bend just south of its intersection with angel road.

N

So here's where it intersects with angels, so it would eliminate this 90 degree bend.

N

The realignment will create improved geometry at angel road and thereby better the traffic flow.

N

With continued development in the northeast portion of tawny town, this improvement will help.

N

The safety and overall roadway network and its plan, functional classification, is um local roadway.

N

Moving on the fourth planned neighborhood connection is visa road relocated. It's located.

N

South of tawny town and is within the growth area. It's a 0.35 mile realignment of the existing road.

N

Which goes through a series of sharp bends to the east of its intersection, with otterdale mill road.

N

So the intersection right here with otterdale mill would uh it would remove these sharp ends.

N

To reconstructing this segment of the road will create improved geometry for both through traffic.

N

And local residents and this road as well, has a functional classification of local roadway.

N

Sells mill road relocated is located in the.

N

Southeastern portion of tawny, town, just north of the circle.

N

It's a 0.2 mile realignment of the existing road eliminating the current sells mill road.

N

Intersection close to the roundabout and moving it to the west, providing a safer traffic situation.

N

Foreign would follow the original alignment right here and would just pop out um a little.

N

More west of the circle, and not so not so close, the project will provide access for development of.

N

Property adjacent to the roadway and it's plan. Functional classification is a local roadway.

N

All right next, we have shower road connection um again. This is in the area of cross mill, road.

N

Relocated, which is the one that I showed you a couple slides back um again located outside.

N

Of this city, um outside of the city limits to the west, but is within the growth area,.

N

This is a 0.2 mile, planned roadway from 194 to the cross mill road realignment with the termination.

N

And cul-de-sac of cross mill road, it will provide the needed connection to maryland 194.

N

um And this intersection relocation is to be done in conjunction with the construction of the tiny.

N

Town greenway so again that would be cul-de-sacing kraus mill and using shower road to reach 194.

N

um And at this time the plan functional classification is undetermined.

N

To plan neighborhood connection number seven is starboard drive extended it's located in southern.

N

Tawny town, it's a one-tenth of a mile extension of the existing starboard drive to turbanion road.

N

To the existing drive and the trevenian road, the extension will provide new residential.

N

Access to travanian road, it also will provide a second access location for.

N

The local neighborhood, which currently only has access off of off of windy, hillis drive.

N

And I apologize, I cut that off, but this is windy. Hill's drive right here in the roadway.

N

Just loops around the starboard um and it's plan, functional classification is local roadway.

N

And then our last planned neighborhood connection is stumptown road, relocated.

N

um It's located in the eastern area of tawny town, it is a quarter, a one-quarter mile realignment.

N

Of the existing road to eliminate a 90 degree bend reconstructing this segment of stumptown.

N

Will improve geometry and provide better traffic flow in the area proposed for future.

N

Residential development and it's planned- functional classification is local roadway.

N

So those are the four plan, major streets and eight plan, neighborhood connections.

N

I'm going to move on to the three roads that staff is recommending for removal in the tawny town area.

N

um All of these roads are within the tawny town city limits.

N

All right so the first is commercial access, road.

N

um It's a planned neighborhood connection located in southeast tawny, town, just south of the circle.

N

um It's a 0.2 mile um connection and linked to development of the commercial property south of.

N

The circle, the plan roadway, is being removed by request of city staff, because the property.

N

Was developed with internal circulation and connectivity that replaces the need for the road.

N

The second road recommended for removal is crimson avenue extended. It's a planned.

N

Neighborhood connection located in northeast tawny town, it is 0.5 miles from existing crimson.

N

Avenue to angel road: this is the existing crimson avenue and then angel road right here.

N

194., um the roadway was constructed as part of the meads crossing subdivision and now serves.

N

As a city as a local roadway, so that one has been completed and then the third.

N

Roadway recommended for removal is genevieve drive extended, it's a planned neighborhood connection in.

N

Southeast tawny, town, it's less than one tenth of a mile in length and connects existing genevieve.

N

Drive to antrim boulevard, so it made this connection right here. um It was con constructed.

N

In conjunction with the commercial properties to aid in connectivity to these commercial properties,.

N

And that's it: does anyone have questions before we move on to mary with union bridge and new windsor.

D

Doesn't look like anyone has any questions for you, claire.

N

All right, thank you. Thank you. Nice presentation, yeah mary I'll turn it over to you.

N

First of all, can you hear me we can hear you? Yes, okay, good.

O

And can you see the presentation we can perfect? Okay, um as claire said, this is the last of.

O

The plan major roadways of chapter six that we've been going over for the last few months.

O

um And this is new windsor and union bridge, um as you can see and as you already know,.

O

I'm sure this is in the north um western part of the county. As you see in the circled area,.

O

Staff is recommending four maryland state highway projects all in the hni. The highway needs.

O

Inventory, as well as for plan major streets, and as with all of these, we have talked to the municipal.

O

Staffs about these, and particularly in the case of um union bridge, there were some comments that will.

O

Integrate into the plan, although we won't really it won't, really affect, including the roads in, but.

O

We will be making some comments because they did have some concerns, so the four um state roads are.

O

Maryland 97 from uh 194 to 75, maryland 84 from 75 to boss, church road maryland 31 from the frederick.

O

County line to the town of new windsor and then the last is not a capacity enhancing project.

O

It's the maryland 31 new windsor streetscape and I think we've talked before we we included when we.

O

Talked about the eldersburg area, the sykesville streetscape project- and these will be the last.

O

Two state streetscape projects in the county that have been going on for at least 20 years.

O

So the first maryland 97 um from 194 to 75. This is where claire left off when she discussed maryland.

O

97 with the tontitown presentation, this is a complete reconstruct where's, my cursor okay.

O

um There's a little bit here that exists, that's middleburg road, but this would all.

O

Here be mostly new, roadway will would all be new roadway and, in speaking with um the planner.

O

For the town of union bridge, there's pretty big concerns that this is no longer feasible, because.

O

Of some ag press as well as other constraints on it, it is still in the state's highway needs.

O

Inventory and within the next few years they may be reassessing it, but we're recommending.

O

That, because it is still in the state's plan, we at least leave it in this long range plan.

O

At the very least, they would like to see the end of it here all the way. um I guess that would be.

O

Butcherjohn that would help with keeping traffic off of main street. So, although this entire.

O

Improvement may not be made, there may be a smaller improvement, still recommended closer to the town.

O

The second improvement is maryland 84 from 75 um to faust, church road.

O

Let's see that is 3.74 miles, it is a rural con collector, and this would just.

O

Be a two-lane upgrade to this. um No work has been performed on this project. Other.

O

Than to identify the future need and again as with a lot of things in this area of the.

O

County this may be a problem because it may impact some ag pres properties.

O

um But you can see that it's, it goes through the historic town of uniontown north to there.

O

The next project is maryland 31 from the frederick county line to new windsor. This.

O

Is 2.92 miles? It's a rural, minor arterial, a two-lane reconstruct um and again there are.

O

Possibly ag preservation easements located along the alignment here, and I did look in.

O

Frederick county, since some of these are impacted by frederick county, to see if these were in their.

O

Long-Range plans or or even a priority of theirs- and they are not at this point, so I thought that.

O

Was of some interest, I think these will have to be reassessed when the hni is reassessed.

O

And then the last day project is maryland: 31 the main street streetscape. This has quite a.

O

History, it's about half a mile, um it's to enhance the community through improvements.

O

To sidewalks streetscape pedestrian crossings and system preservation, this has been a high.

O

Priority for construction in the county's priority letter, there's a bit of a history of.

O

um An effort was made to coordinate with the relocation of some water lines. That's.

O

Taken years that looks like it's best back on track, um but again the the commissioners.

O

Justice last week agreed to continue putting it as a high priority in their priority letter.

O

So then, there's four planned major streets as well. The first three are in union bridge.

O

The connector road george street extended mount pleasant boulevard and then the fourth one is in.

O

The town of new windsor and basically the three union bridge projects are all serving the same.

O

Purpose: they're alternatives to going through the town, they're increasing the connectivity.

O

And they're important because they could keep truck traffic off the town off out of downtown.

O

So the first one is the connector road. This will only be necessary. You can see this connects union.

O

Bridge to the future maryland 77, which doesn't exist yet this obviously would only be necessary.

O

If maryland's 77 is constructed and that's the one we just talked about, um but here's main street and.

O

Again, the whole purpose of all of these is really to keep traffic off of main street.

O

The next one is called george street extended, but it may need to be renamed as you can see. It comes.

O

Off of george street avoids the downtown area and connects here. This is currently industrially.

O

Zoned and developed as a solar development, so at the point at which that is decommissioned,.

O

And something else is developed there, it's still a possibility, but unlikely because of.

O

Other things that have gone in around here we've been informed by the town, so it's really possible.

O

That the connection might come up, come off of uh wide road and be a smaller connection, but still.

O

They would like to keep a connection in here and they plan on doing that when they do update their.

O

Plan so we may rename this from george street because it may not come out of george street.

O

um There's nothing: okay! That's pretty much what you need to know about that! The third.

O

One in union bridge is another connection here. It is from bark hill to maryland, 75.

O

um It is part of the overall roadway network for alternative routes, and this would eventually be.

O

um Develop constructed by the developer of that property if that ever takes place, so um the last.

O

Plan major street is in new windsor and it is the relocation of springdale avenue from.

O

I'm sorry, that's the realignment of springdale avenue with new windsor road and basically it.

O

Will get rid of this dangerous intersection here and allow this to happen? There was at.

O

One time a cul-de-sac that was proposed that has been taken off the plan, but basically this.

O

Is in there to provide improved geometry and better traffic flow at the primary.

O

Gateway on the east side of town- and this is considered basically a safety improvement.

O

There are no planned neighborhood connections and there's nothing being taken off the plant in this area. Do you have any questions about this.

D

Doesn't look like we do mary? Okay, then that completes um for now claire and my assessment.

O

Of the plan major streets throughout the county, as I said last time, we'll be coming back to you.

O

With an assessment of the prioritization of the importance of all of them and we'll be going over.

O

That early in may with you well, thank you very much. It's been a big project still going on yeah.

D

Well, thank you very much have a great evening. You too,.

D

So we'll move on to um item 10., which is planned commercial center text, amendment.

D

And introduction- and I believe madam secretary you're walking us through this. Yes, I am so.

F

Let me share my presentation with you all. Can you see my screen? Yes, okay,.

F

So this came about because of the stablos property plan, commercial center development.

F

um Back in like the late summer of 2022., um do you all recall that particular.

F

Development case that we had, and at that time the planning and zoning commission chose to deny.

F

um That particular case because of the clause that said may approve um and then the property owner.

F

um Appeal just the board of zoning appeals and um that this case was then overturned um by the.

F

Board of zoning appeals at that time. um The community surrounding that um filed an appeal.

F

Then to the maryland circuit court- and that was an administrative hearing and my understanding.

F

In jim almonds online, he can better elaborate on this. My understanding at that time was that.

F

um This was an administrative hearing and all of the um essentially documents that.

F

Were presented were not into the circuit court in time, and so they dropped the case.

F

So, as of now, this uh property owner has the right to develop a planned commercial center.

F

With the second story, residential component, and so what we're here to discuss with you this evening.

F

um As a result of that is many members of the community backing up to this particular property.

F

Had concerns um regarding the residential component um of these planned commercial.

F

Centers and I think a lot of the anxiety comes from the um a similar property- that's developed.

F

um Closer to the intersection of 26 and 32, referred to as the princess shopping.

F

Center and so there's a lot of concerns with that particular look and style of residential.

F

Development on top of the commercial, so with that, um I'm going to go ahead and change my slide here.

F

um On october, 6th um because of letters written in by um the community at large, we're concerned.

F

um Regarding this, the second story: residential option that the board of county commissioners.

F

um Had a meeting at their regularly scheduled open session and decided to.

F

um Refer this particular section so section.

F

155.092 plan commercial centers. They decided to afford the residential portion to this body. The.

F

Planning commission for your review and um consideration and commenting.

F

On um if this should be any further um text, amendments done to this particular district.

F

I'm not going to go through all of this. This is the um code specifically for 155092 and.

F

Just to be clear, so 15509 to plan commercial centers, the residential is a part of that.

F

um Overall development style, plain commercial centers- really are our typical strip center. That.

F

You see um in the county, so when you have you know two or three different types of commercial uses.

F

In a typical strip center, that is also a planned commercial center. It's the residential components.

F

And that's found here in section d of the current code. So I'm going to flip to the next slide, which.

F

Shows that a little larger so currently our code allows for- and this is subdivision- not zoning.

F

Allows for accessory uses, regardless of the underlying zoning district, and these are allowed.

F

In all c1, c2 and c3 that the planning and zoning commission may allow- and this is the issue that we.

F

Had during that um meeting was that we may allow doesn't say, shall it says, may on that second story.

F

um Structure is not more than a total of two stories and that residential units may.

F

Be provided on that second story of the structure um and no residential.

F

Uses are permitted on the first story of the structure within any planned commercial center.

F

um And then they give some floor area um limits that the floor area of a residential unit should.

F

Be not smaller than 600 square feet, but no greater than a thousand square feet in size.

F

um In the area of all residential units shall not exceed 50 of the total area of the structure.

F

So basically, it has to fit the footprint of the first floor exactly to the second floor,.

F

um And it has to, for the residential component, has to meet all concurrency.

F

Management standards, so schools, roads, um things like that water sewer, any issues with that.

F

um Residential development impact fees, um and then this has been on the books for decades. We.

F

Only have one developed, um but then there's a redevelopment clause in here that a plan.

F

Commercial center existing after 2007 may be redeveloped to include residential units on.

F

The second sort of any existing structure- and I think, mary found through her research, this.

F

Really dates back to 2004, but I believe the first one might have been built around 07.

F

um And then uh an amended site plan is approved by planning commission. If you want to redevelop.

F

um And then in compliance with with the subdivision um uh chapters, so that is what.

F

Is before you this evening, um what will we be doing is not at the april meaning, but sometime.

F

In may, we'll be coming back to you um with some additional information, some suggestions.

F

And perhaps um edits to the code as it stands, if that's the direction that you all once you take.

F

With regards to the second story um residences, so I'm going to go ahead and stop sharing my screen.

K

F

Oh no, I get booted.

F

Okay, there we go all right, got booted for a second um so, and I know we have some callers.

F

On the line that signed up for this evening to discuss this with you, I would say this at this.

F

Point in time, this legislation would not affect the current development of the establos property.

F

Who have not been given any direction so effect what's already in process, but this would be more.

F

Looking toward the future, um if you all want to remove that second story, residential provision, so.

F

I'll, let you all discuss it for a minute and if you have any direction that you'd like to.

F

Give us we weren't really given any direction per se other than let's investigate and research. This.

F

um With you all do we do? We know why I may have asked this when we were looking at this project.

D

Before what the genesis is for having residential on the second story of a planned commercial center.

D

I can't say why carroll county did it and we don't have any notes or any information on. Why carol can.

F

I specifically chose to take this. I would say this, though, um in the uh early to mid 2000s, that was a.

F

um Favorable development technique of the traditional neighborhood development kind.

F

Of going back to um you know like a typical main street community or where shopkeepers would have.

F

Their residences, above with maybe their shop below this was carroll county's. Take on that.

F

um And also to try to address, within the same development footprint, residential with commercial.

F

Because we don't have a lot of zone land for rental units and more affordable housing, we just.

F

Don't in carroll county- and this is an attempt to try to do something without expanding the.

F

Development envelope to keep it within a similar footprint, um so that's you know kind of the the.

F

What maybe that's the advocating for the way forward is that you know we do have a critical.

F

Need there's a national housing shortage. um Carroll county is not spared from that.

F

And we have residents and citizens that need housing to to live in that they can afford.

F

um And so this is one way to do that. Potentially I mean we're not setting the market price on this.

F

But one would think it would be more affordable, um being co-located with commercial. Okay, that's.

D

Helpful matt, you uh have a question yeah. Well I'll just say I you know. I was adamantly against.

C

This project, not because of what it was because, where, where it was more than anything and the.

C

Fact that they actually took landscaping out of it between the initial and what happened at the end.

C

But I I mean I've been to urbana urbana's got two and three story: ones like that. That look great.

C

I mean, I just think you know location and you know I remember asking the question: was this.

C

An up or down thing when that came in front of us and we were told it was up or down and not.

C

Go back and change some stuff to make it see fit in a little bit better in the neighborhood.

C

um You know that was that was my take I I don't I'm not like totally against them. I just think you.

C

Know the way it's wrote, we should have discretion if it fits in that area and it definitely in my.

C

Opinion did not fit in that area, so I was, I was not very happy, it got turned over, but.

H

Yeah well, and it seems to me, you know, matt one of the things that you know where it's done well,.

H

There's there is linda you're hitting it on the head and we're talking all around.

H

It but there's an architectural element to it. There's a streetscape feel to it to where.

H

You know it doesn't come across as um so motels and motel ish and I don't know how to to to say.

H

It any other way, and then you know one of the complaints we're getting from the current one.

H

That that is developed at the princess center is that you know people are drying their laundry on.

H

On the balcony- and it's just not that that's not indicative of the community that we want.

H

To have, and so is there a way for us to create some architectural design elements.

H

On this type of development, so that it does look more more residential, um you know it the the way.

H

That was developed, you know it actually harkens more towards you know, retail, on the on the first.

H

Floor and maybe office on the second floor. It doesn't really look very residential. You know.

H

There's not really an apartment feel to it. So that's some of the the comments that I'm getting.

H

uh Or or the comments I would give staff to is that if we can put some architectural guidelines.

H

Around this, it might be helpful for both the community um and it might attract the quality.

H

Of the development that that the community is seeking, because what was done well, does.

H

Is not reflective of what's up in urbana, I mean, I know I think I know some of the developments that.

H

Matt that you're talking about and those mixed use when it's done well, is really cool. You know.

H

Linda, I think I think y'all are right as a staff to to to say you know. This is one way to do this.

H

But I think if we don't do it correctly it it's not it's not a good thing for the community at all.

D

Yeah janice did you uh have some comments, yeah yeah? I I do think that we need to have.

P

Some kind of architectural requirements, but as far as laundry you know, that would be in the.

P

Development of the property, I mean that that's whoever the owner is of that complex to put up.

P

Some kind of restrictions- and I don't know that we could mandate that I think that's more for.

P

The developer to do when he's building them, but the architectural requirements would be.

P

Great and I'm sure we will probably discuss this further at another time. um Unfortunately,.

P

The project that came before us is able to move forward as it is, am I correct, linda.

F

um I mean so far, um there's been no stay or anything um for this particular property.

F

The the project's been overturned, um so I mean, as of now, it's still moving forward.

F

um And- and I think this is a really great discussion to for us to give us guidance.

F

To look at architectural standards more um in depth with this, you know I'll go back to what.

F

Had happened in the fall was really unfortunate. That project had been heard the year before and.

F

During concept, that was really the time to say we don't. We didn't want the second story, residential.

F

I think that was really the burden um at that time, and then we had a complete changeover.

F

And planning commission between when it was first heard in second time it came through.

F

um And then that was a very big challenge then, at that point to go back and say what changes.

F

Do you want me because we're already in final, so I think you know lesson for all of us that those.

F

Are things that could have been addressed during concept for all of us moving forward.

F

um But again it did get overturned, so it ended up being a moot point anyway. With regard to to.

F

That and maybe it would have been more palatable with better design standards and I think that's a.

F

Great thing I mean honestly, it's been on the books for almost 20 years. We've only had one.

F

um Property really do it and take advantage of it. No one's even redeveloped that way yet.

F

But that's not just that they wouldn't do it in the future and I think it would look.

F

Much better- and I agree with you uh pete that we would want to see something maybe a little more.

F

um A little nicer looking, I guess so to speak. I do agree with you kind of that. Motel feels.

F

Maybe not what we're going for, but maybe more of a true residential I've seen some.

F

More things in the catlins in montgomery, county and stuff, like that, so yeah owings.

F

Mills area they have the first floor commercial, but then the residential kind of more condoing.

H

Yeah you're exactly right, linda and and again I I apologize because you know when you when you.

H

Say there's a problem with something you ought to have a solution. I really don't have a solution for.

H

This and when you say architectural standards, I wouldn't know where to start. I really don't.

H

um Other than you know it, when you see it and and that's not it, and so I apologize because I.

H

Really don't have much. You know one of the things that that I kind of think of when, when jenna said.

H

What you did about the laundry I don't necessarily I agree with her. It would be hard to enforce you.

H

Know that that hey you went swimming, you know you, you went to somebody's pool and you you put.

H

Your your towel out to dry, I mean you know that that you know makes some sense, but you know if.

H

We required laundry hookups in each unit. I don't know is that something that we want to do I mean I.

H

Don't know, I really don't know what the solutions are, um and the other thing I I would ask is: is.

H

When, when we say that anything we do here would not apply to this development.

H

Is that because it's it's written in the code or or is that our customary, because.

H

They've gone through the process they've they did everything they were supposed to do. It's.

H

Our fault as a county that we didn't you know, do things differently, I mean, or is it the case that.

H

We could say: listen, you know if you haven't been issued a permit and you haven't put a shovel in.

H

The ground you got to go back and design it. This way is, is what what is this? What is the statute.

H

There that we're leaning on where we can't get this guy to step up and do something better well.

F

I'll I'll defer to jim but maryland is typically what they call a high vesting state. So really what.

F

The standard typically from maryland has been in the past is shoveling the ground kind of thing or.

F

For even footers in the ground so to speak. However, I've seen some recent court cases where vesting.

F

Has been just investment to a substantial amount, so if it's demonstrated that you know they have.

F

You know the they've gone through the entitlement process and and other than pulling the permits.

F

um And they've spent tens of hundreds of thousands of dollars on things and they have.

F

You know contractors lined up. You know, depending on what the next step in the process would be a.

F

Court could say you know what we do see that I mean there's no hard and fast rule for besting.

F

um Jim, I think you'd be better better than me to elaborate.

Q

uh Right, uh yes, mr lester, so traditionally maryland courts have.

Q

um Found that a project is invested and definitely means it can move forward, no matter what changes.

Q

Are made to the code subsequently and um the courts have found investing traditionally.

Q

um When the um project has obtained a development right and a permit, so basically approval and the.

Q

Permits and um has basically put shovels on the ground and moved dirt. um If that happens, then.

Q

um The project is vested and any subsequent changes wouldn't affect that specific project.

Q

um So it really, uh I guess, just depends on the project and where it is in the actual construction.

Q

H

Thank you well, thank you very much. Matt did you ever come yeah? I was just going.

C

To say that you know I, I think I think we need to have some different language.

C

That gives a gives us the right to um you know. I think it's a good thing to have this in the code.

C

But I don't know if, if we're as us as a planning and zoning, aren't going to really have any teeth,.

C

In it I mean, I really think you know, because, like in frederick there in urbana, you know.

C

That's where, like the main entrance, is coming into a development and it's got town homes all.

C

Around it, it fits it doesn't fit right beside a state highway. That's got a 30 foot bank behind.

C

It and got you know our 40 000 or after those lights are bigger than that back behind it and.

C

It doesn't even have you know my my biggest take was, is you know the state roads didn't even want.

C

To put a crosswalk in for people to walk across route 26, it's very congested right. There already.

C

And the fact that he took landscaping out of the project, even though he put in the sidewalk out.

C

Front that didn't connect anything he took landscaping out when it came to final, which.

C

You know I could hear the people complaining that you know it's like.

C

But you know I, I think it's something that fits good, but I think it needs to fit in the.

C

Right area- and I don't think that was the right area that was my take and I don't know if we can.

C

Cramp the language to make it associated with more of a development. I don't know.

D

All right stephen go ahead. Yeah I mean I agree. I mean to me this area is.

E

It just it's to me just doesn't make any sense of what year they're trying to put where they are. I.

E

Mean especially with literally across the street, you already have commercial development that.

E

Has a lot of vacancies in it to to be honest, so it just seems to me, like you're kind of doing the.

E

Same thing, you're, just building another building that yes architecture, does not fit that. Obviously.

E

uh As we've seen from emails, the residents and people in the area are not very welcoming to so.

E

Yeah I mean I agree that it would be nice if we had a little bit more.

E

Ability to you know, make some changes, you know stuff with the architecture and all because it's.

E

Just to me, it just doesn't make any sense. Why you're putting this there, I I guess.

D

You know, and my frustration was, um it seemed like our role with academic and and actually fairly.

D

Useless um because we offered a number of comments, I think we articulated pretty clearly all the.

D

Things we're talking about tonight. We even stepped back and said it's not even just the architecture.

D

But matt to your point you know I thought we couldn't have been clearer, that we didn't think.

D

It fit with the surrounding community. It wasn't even consistent with the master plan. All things.

D

That are, you know, dead on things we're supposed to consider, and it still makes no difference and so.

D

What's the point really um when, as I've said to jim before, my frustration is that it just.

D

Gets appealed to novo and then that's it and the reasons we gave and the community comments.

D

That we heard and incorporated really are, are um given no wait um when it goes up, and so I think.

D

It is a flawed process, we can change the statute, but the process is always going to be a problem.

D

um I think and when it came to us in concept, I was critical of the residences on above and I.

D

Made it clear that it was a problem for me and it was going to be a problem when they.

D

Came back, and so I encouraged them to design it differently, which they didn't.

D

And then they just moved it on through they just shoved it on through, and there was really nothing.

D

This commission could do about it, and so I think, no matter how you change the code to to accomplish.

D

These things, which I would be in favor of I don't know that the process makes it any more meaningful.

D

I think we'll say we don't like it and we don't approve it and it ought to be different and then.

D

It'll go on up and depending on how the hearing goes de novo new day, nothing, we said matters.

D

If they can convince the you know the bza, and this is not a criticism of the bza at all. It's.

D

Just the process, I am very critical of so it's like. Why do we even bother now.

D

Maybe the lesson learned is that we can be maybe I should have been more aggressive at the at the.

D

Concept stage but say the commission. That said we don't like it. We don't want resonance on.

D

It we don't approve the concept plan and they come back at the next stage, full of resonances.

D

um What do we do about it? We can say we don't like it again. We still don't like it. We didn't.

D

Like it last time, we don't like it this time too bad, we deny it, they appeal it. It goes in. So I.

D

Don't know what the bigger solution is, because I think we did a very good job in articulating.

D

And well, first of all, listening to the community and then looking at the bigger picture. This thing.

D

Doesn't fit where it's going, it just doesn't and you can, you can dress it up and you can decorate.

D

It and you can make you can put pretty lights on it. It's still in the wrong place for the wrong use.

D

um Right now and it isn't safe for the reasons that we said- that's a busy highway.

D

And there's not even going to be a cross, walk or a walk indicator, and I worry that.

D

Somebody's going to get hurt or killed there, and yet it's gone in so um I have.

D

I don't know I'm frustrated by all this um and michael. I didn't give you a chance to speak. I'm.

D

Sorry about that so michael did you did you have a comment? I know pete. You have a comment.

D

Too so I I was, I was jeff, I was just gonna, you know pretty much say what you were saying. It's.

L

Frustrating that you know this was one of my first uh cases. I guess uh when I joined the board and.

L

um I specifically remember you: it wasn't confrontational, but you know bringing those guys.

L

uh Holding them their feet to the fire and saying hey, we asked you to do this when you were here and.

L

Nothing's been done and then they go and change take the landscaping out at the final. You know.

L

Kind of it's like okay, why do we have the code and then the bza to overturn it? um Despite what the.

L

Code says the may, when we that may word gives us the power to say no, we this has to change. We don't.

L

Like this blah blah blah uh with no regard to that and it's it's just, it's frustrating and I sense.

L

Your frustration and you're right, it's like why what something else there's a disconnect somewhere.

L

In that appeal between us and the bza and the bza, did they review our meeting notes? Did they.

L

Review our the recording of those meetings did they review your statements about when.

L

It first came through, I doubt it doesn't seem like it did. They ask for any further input. No.

L

That's the disconnect! So what what's the purpose of having the code? What's the purpose of having.

L

um You know these these processes in place so that we can offer feedback to the developer and say you.

L

Know we don't this isn't going to work here. You need to do this this and this and then for them.

L

To ignore it and go appeal it and win. There's that's the disconnect. I think, uh between the.

L

Bca and and the planning and zoning commission- I guess I guess what I wanted to say is yeah. I.

H

I value and respect the fact that the developer has rights, to the extent that you know an appeal.

H

Is exactly that he's appealing to someone else you know can? Can you not take another look at this.

H

And so to give them, the right of appeal is a great thing. Having said that, jim I'm I'm wondering if, if.

H

We had language and I don't mean to put you on the spot, so this doesn't require you to respond. But if.

H

The language like, like, I think, michael's kind of headed there. The word, may I mean if there were.

H

Stronger language that in in certain circumstances, you know better exceptional or I don't know what.

H

It would be, but, but you know does the word may open us up to where we're being arbitrary and.

H

Capricious you know, or can you set a standard that that says, look in certain circumstances.

H

This could be done, but it's going to be rare or I you know, how do you do that? How.

H

Do you write that, and so you know good luck with that jim. You write it very carefully.

Q

Is how you write it? Because, uh as you said, there are issues with arbitrary increases and also.

Q

um Due process issues and constitutional issues with equal protection.

Q

um You know we just goes to treat everyone the same way and.

Q

um That those two developers, even uh just because they make a lot of money, doesn't mean they lose.

Q

Legal protection, so um there would be concerns, there's always concerns when the government has.

Q

Discretion and they use that discretion to make differences between person a and person b.

Q

um Based on a sort of arbitrary and capricious matters, you were uh saying before so.

Q

um We can certainly explore language to do that, but we would have to do it very carefully.

H

And then that is where I fall back to and I'll and again I'll be quiet because we.

H

I know the people that want to talk that are citizens and that's where, when it gets.

H

Approved you're gonna from a landscaping standpoint from a lighting standpoint.

H

From a safety and security standpoint from a traffic's pattern, standpoint.

H

um And from an architectural just, you know being welcoming as a residence it it needs.

H

To be upgraded in certain ways, how we do that, I don't know, and I really don't I wish I wish. I knew.

C

My question yeah, my question would be: could could we make it where the wording would be as it would.

C

Be part of a community because the ones that I've seen that look good are attached to a community.

C

I mean because you know, if you build a nice, I mean you know. As you said, we need much more.

C

uh We need more house in carroll county everywhere.

C

And if it was attached to a community like some of the ones that I've seen, I mean, I think they.

C

Look good, even you know, as long as you have the architect right on the front of it as you're.

C

Entering a development- or you know, kind of a strip mall attached to a development. They look good so.

Q

That's certainly another language we can um explore.

D

The question I come back to, though, even if we do that, I mean in some ways we did that I mean.

D

Here it, it has to be, I mean part of what we're required to look at is is whatever.

D

The project is consistent with the master plan. Is it consistent with the surrounding community and.

D

We're asked to exercise discretion around that we take in input from the community lots of people.

D

Came in and talked to us lots of people sent us letters. We take all of that into account.

D

We exercise discretion, we hold up that standard, so we can, you know, would this be better as part of a.

D

Community, how does this fit with the surrounding community? All of those things which we did.

D

We articulated pretty clearly, I think, between all of us as a commission in holding those standards.

D

Up why we thought this one was inconsistent and therefore shouldn't be approved, and I I know it.

D

Beat a dead horse here, but the problem I think with the process is when it does get appeal and.

D

I certainly understand if I'm the property owner, I want the right to appeal and I don't.

D

Have a problem with that? I have a problem with the fact that the process then takes it to an appeal.

D

Where none of the community input is considered by the bza none of the letters, none of the none.

D

Of the comments, none of the conversation, the community conversation that happened unless.

D

They're all gonna, you know sort of descend on moss on the bza to do it all again, as opposed.

D

To the bza being required to consider the record from below so community citizens.

D

Aren't inconvenienced a second time um to try to clear their schedules to go, say the same thing.

D

They already said before, when there's a record of it in the first place, so I think the process.

D

Is inconsiderate to the community? I think it's disrespectful to this commission. I think it's.

D

um I just think it's not the best we can do as a community. I think it's deficient in a.

D

Lot of ways- and it's so easily fixable all of that work by the community by this commission.

D

um Could be captured if the appeal just had to be on the record so that they.

D

Did have to take consideration of that janice user. Have your hand up. I do.

P

One place we fell short, we heard the concept plan and I could have sworn we said. We wanted to see.

P

It back, but that was quite some time back and not. Everybody was a part of the commission that, um but.

P

It came back to us in a final plan, um so then we were trying to backtrack and tell them what to do.

P

um And frustration came over and then motions were made and we said no, so um I think we need.

P

To be more cognizant upfront and make sure that if it is a concept plan- and it appears.

P

Questionable that we stipulate that we need to see the preliminary before it comes back before final.

P

So yeah and that and that's a great question because.

H

Janice or party linda from a process standpoint, if this something like this were to happen in the.

H

Future, you know where we we've seen something, and we said a few things and it comes back and they.

H

Didn't do anything well, our action, this time we you know we denied it. Could the alternative have.

H

Been you were not ready to approve this, yet we're not going to deny it, but we're.

H

Also not going to approve it, you need to go back. Could could we have done that again to this guy.

F

I don't think we could do that and jim. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you could have.

F

Approved it with additional conditions that you wanted to see as far as the landscaping and stuff.

F

Goes like if we thought, if you thought that was sub subpar so like in your life in your latitude.

F

Range, you can change signs, you can. You know, change parking traffic patterns where things are situated.

F

On a property you can ask for more landscaping and you could have held them to that too.

F

um I think those are some things that that definitely um can be done. I'm not sure if.

F

The you know ideally they're supposed to take your concerns, a concept and bring them back.

F

And it should your concern should be what they go from constant to preliminary. To final, I mean that.

F

Really should have been done so my so then I hear you on that. If I'm a developer- and I don't want to.

D

Do what we're suggesting I bring it at concept? Commission says you got to change all these.

D

Things I leave, I come back, I didn't change any of them. I'm now at final, I didn't like any of the.

D

Commission's ideas or requirements or conditions, so I say here we are final. I know you had all.

D

These conditions- I know you wanted all this extra landscaping, I'm not doing it, I'm just not doing it.

D

We deny it it's really sort of what happened here, including at final. They even took away some of.

D

The landscaping so um so we get somebody who's, just defiant, you know they come in at concept. We.

D

Couldn't be clearer, yeah we could have been clearer. I get that suppose we were I'm not.

D

Sure it would have been different, I'm pretty sure they would have come back and said. Yeah.

D

We heard you with our ears, but we're not doing any of the things that you want now, I'm at final.

D

Now, what what can we do as a commission at final? um Yes, we can ask for a special report, maybe after.

D

After they come in a concept, we want a special report. They come back at the special report.

D

They're still defiant, so we want one another special report. Maybe we want five special reports.

D

You know at some point we get to the end point and they've either done what we want or they haven't.

D

And if they just haven't, what can we do other than keep adding conditions or you.

D

Know say we want a 40-foot berm around the whole place, or you know things like that.

D

um Ultimately, at some point it gets across the finish line, and then it goes up on on the de novo.

D

Appeal, and um so it's really you know, we have the defiant, you know the defiant, I guess um petitioner.

D

um At concept, what do we do as a commission and that's not an answer for tonight? It's just a.

D

You know we're working hard to do the things the code says we're supposed to do.

D

And we're listening to the community and we're balancing out and we're exercising.

D

Our discretion, consistent with the master plan and um the surrounding community and.

D

All of those things, sometimes the community agrees with us. Sometimes they disagree, but we always have.

D

Taken it seriously, we've always taken all that information and we always consider those things.

D

um To what end, I guess um so, um jim you have a you, have a green light on. Yes, I just wanted.

Q

To uh follow up on, and I understand all of your frustration with the appeal process and.

Q

I just want to emphasize that as a function of state case law and not the county code.

D

No, I know that, because I'd raised the issue with you I said is am I I use.

D

The word is it hardwired? You know in the code and your answer, your legal advice is.

D

um Rightly, that it is, um that doesn't mean I have to like it, and it doesn't mean I think.

D

It's right or fair, absolutely because I think it's, I think, that's a! I think it's a significant flaw.

D

And changing that would would fix a lot of the things that we're talking about um tonight. Still.

D

Gives appeal rights? um I just think it would be a more meaningful appeal to everybody involved.

D

um If it were on the record um because we're doing our work, but the record is is, is.

D

um Of no value is, is the problem so um anyway. Well, I appreciate everybody's uh one listening to me.

D

Vent which is of another worthless thing, that's a that's being done, um but uh maybe there'll be.

D

A way at some point in the future, where uh that could that could change for the better.

D

Stephen, did you have a question or a comment? Yeah? No, no! I was just kind of commenting on.

E

You you use, the word uh define and I I do remember when the developer came in. He definitely was very.

E

I guess stand office was probably the best way to describe his demeanor with not only us but with.

E

The uh the members of the public that actually came out in mass you know as the largest the.

E

Largest amount of um of citizens come out against anything. Really. You know to one of our in-person.

E

Meetings so I mean that's just a really good way to describe it, because there definitely was.

E

Defiance or standoffishness I I guess you could say from the word- go yeah. I think so and look.

D

That's their prerogative, and they can do that um and you know that's all right.

D

I just would like the community's input and our exercise discretion to be more meaningful. I guess.

D

um And be part of the consideration as it moves through the process. I think the bca, if I were on.

D

The bza, I would appreciate having that record as opposed to having to develop it all from scratch.

D

Every time, um if we're doing our job, their job should be better. They we should elevate the.

D

Decision-Making process because we're elevating the conversation because we're bringing more to.

D

The table, and instead they've got to do all the lifting all the time and it's one person.

D

It's just it's a it's a bad setup um for everybody involved. So anyway, I'll get off my high horse and.

D

um I guess uh linda, is there anything else on this before we open up the general public comment.

D

No, that's all. We do have a speaker bill mccormick who actually also sent in um a comment letter and.

F

A petition to the planning and zoning commission earlier this week, so he um just wants to comment.

F

On the topic, so I'm gonna turn that over to he and laura to unmute yup there you go bill mccoy.

R

uh Can you all hear me? Yes, yes, okay great, I I first want to say that I really appreciate you.

R

Taking um time to listen to the citizens, um I know you do. I know I know you take it seriously.

R

um So I definitely appreciate that um yeah just I know it didn't come across this way when, when.

R

Whoever said it said it, but um I think the phrase was an unfortunate lesson learned.

R

um From the county perspective- and you know from our perspective it's a little bit more than that.

R

uh You know, you know, developers invest money, you know somebody said tens or.

R

Hundreds of thousands of dollars, but there are dozens of citizens who have.

R

Invested tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars uh making carroll county their home.

R

um And I believe they have rights too, um I believe in the future, should should be its own zone.

R

um I I can't remember who said it, but somebody said this particular topic shouldn't be addressed.

R

At this time, um because it would affect every commercial property in the county.

R

um I think that's kind of the point. Nobody should really be able to just slap apartments in any.

R

Commercial zone in the county, um if mixed use was its own zone, it would allow for more transparency.

R

Within the community it would allow the planning and zoning commission more oversight into ensuring.

R

uh Mixed-Use zones fit with the surrounding community um at a minimum, though, I think the.

R

Code for planned commercial centers needs to be overhauled with regards to accessory use um the.

R

Current code is sloppy uh seems, like apartments are just kind of slapped on as an afterthought.

R

um Just to kind of quote unquote keep up with what is thought to be. The current trend in community.

R

Development, um but based on input uh from at least onceivers, uh our previous state delegate.

R

Susan krebs, uh what was submitted to the planning and zoning commission illustrating what misused.

R

Could look like is in no way in no way in no way resembles past projects or currently.

R

Planned projects, um given this estimate that the process was flawed, misguided and definitely.

R

Misrepresented uh the current code allows for discretion, however, not all parties that rule.

R

On these cases, understand that or care to use that discretion, given this misalignment standard should.

R

Be developed in order to maintain a higher standard for our community as a whole. uh The.

R

Argument against standards, for whatever reason is that of property rights. However, property rights do.

R

Not come with carplants to undertake any endeavor on property that you own. I can't open a bar in my.

R

Basement I can't open a firing range on a half acre of land. I can't open a dispensary within.

R

A certain distance from schools there should be standards. um Miss eisenberg mentioned the petition.

R

That I submitted, I submitted that petition of people who agree with removing second story.

R

Apartments from playing commercial center code I'd also ask that you've taken into consideration.

R

Those who have been critical of these types of projects, very recently by writing into you guys.

R

um Somebody mentioned that uh the projects which are currently underway, um it's kind of.

R

Tough to like stop that and that that that's kind of confusing, which is you, know, kind of the reason.

R

We were here. I would ask that if you do agree that this particular use should be more thoughtfully.

R

Executed uh that you make your motion when you, if you decide to that the code take effect, the.

R

Date is passed for all projects that have not been issued, a building permit and broken ground.

R

uh County code should not be written in stone. I would ask the children consider removing.

R

Second story: apartments from playing commercial centers until something that the community can.

R

Be proud of can be thoughtfully introduced and again all right. Thank you for listening to me.

D

Thank you, sir. Is there um anyone else that uh is on the line to offer public comment.

F

No, I believe he was the only person that signed up for this evening.

F

Okay, very good, then um we've reached the end of our agenda, we're on item 12, which is adjournment.

D

So um is there a motion that we adjourned? I move. We adjourn all right all in favor.

D

Of adjournment say uh all right all right that looks unanimous. Thank you all very.

D

Very much great to see you this evening and uh we'll see you good commentary. Thank you guys.