Carroll County, MD Carroll County Planning and Zoning Commission, 17 Jan 2023

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From YouTube: Carroll County Planning and Zoning Commission Work Session January 17, 2023

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https://www.carrollcountymd.gov/government/boards-commissions/planning-zoning-commission/

A

Good morning, everybody we'll call the meeting to order it's the first.

A

Planning and zoning commission meeting of 2023. happy new year.

A

um Clerk will begin as we always do with the establishment of quorum. Please.

B

Mr walthers, here ms kirkner here, mr lester here mr hawk.

B

Mr kane, your major smith here, mr classic here, commissioner gordon here secretary eisenberg,.

C

Here, mr chair, please let the record reflect that seven members are present and we do.

A

Thank you very much. Would you please stand for the pledge of allegiance pledge allegiance.

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Indivisible with liberty.

A

All right uh we have been presented with uh an agenda, is there? Are there any changes to the.

A

Agenda, no, the uh agenda status has written all right. I have to entertain a motion.

A

The approval of the agenda as presented move, we approve it a second, I know in favor.

A

Aye aye sounds unanimous to me: we'll move on to item five review and approval of the minutes.

A

From december 13th, but I also have minutes here from december 7th, they weren't printed.

B

Out the last time, but they were approved: okay, okay, good okay, so we have before us.

A

The minutes from december 13th are there any uh suggested, edits or corrections to those minutes.

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Not be happy to entertain a motion for approval and that we approve the minutes. One second.

A

All right, all in favor, aye, unanimous, very good. The december 13th commits are approved.

A

I will sign and hand them over to madam clerk in just a moment. um Move on to item six. Excuse me.

A

Commission member reports- I don't normally say anything I usually just say I have nothing to.

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Say today I actually want to say something: um linda was good enough to forward an email.

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um Sometime during the holidays- and it really had to do it- was from chris swam, the digital media.

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Manager, slash webmaster, and he was he pointed out that our comments around saying nobody is watching.

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Or we joke and sarcastically say we have millions of people watching and our ratings.

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Are great or they're not great or whatever? He said that that can be offensive to the staff.

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Broadcasting these meetings, and it makes it seem like what they're doing, is not important.

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And I think he's right and um it was insensitive of me to do that so first, I want to apologize to.

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um Chris and matt and their team, I think it is important to open to be open and transparent. It's.

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Well done, if you've ever watched, the videos which I have they do a fabulous job with the.

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Camera angles and the sound and all of that- and I think the members of I know members of public do.

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Watch and enjoy these things. I've had a number of people actually over the holidays. Tell me.

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That they watch and enjoy these meetings, and I think and they're informed with what's going on.

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um With these high quality productions that make it convenient for members of the public.

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So I do apologize for my comments, I'll try not to do that. Again, I didn't mean to be insensitive.

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And I want to thank the entire digital media team for what they do and for doing it so well.

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um The other thing I want to say is I'd like to welcome commissioner tom gardner. According to our.

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Planning a zoning commission as our ex-officio. It's really nice to have you here and thank you.

A

Appreciate it appreciate you being here so with that I will stop talking and I'll. Ask.

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Commissioner, if you'd like to make any comments, uh none just that I look forward to serving with.

C

Everybody on the commission and listening to what comes before us there. We go it's nice to have you.

A

Here, thank you. Any other members of the commission have anything they'd like to say yep all right.

A

Hearing none uh madam secretary I'll move on to item seven, which is administrative report.

A

All right uh good morning, everyone and welcome commissioner, gordon to your very first planning.

D

Commission meeting we typically are able to get together prior to the first planning commission to.

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Onboard him, we had a little kerfuffle last week on being able to schedule a meeting, but we're.

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Going to give him the total load down on what it means to be a planning commission, member and.

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All the wonderful things that you all do how you look at projects in process, how you help transmit.

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Legislation to the board of county commissioners and the role that you all play in decision making.

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And helping the county commissioners make their decisions as well. So um thank you for.

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Being here with us today and welcome back mr kosik as well happy to have you here with us.

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um The only other thing I have for you is that our office is back open. We are in the building.

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Today is our first day after our extensive hiatus had some work done in our hvac system.

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So we're all happy to be here and up and running and being back to our old, our old routine. Again.

D

So we're happy for that as well and with that I'll ask laura matice if she has any extensions.

D

David is I'm sorry, david is here in lars laura's place.

D

C

Good morning, good morning, david b, craft bureau of development review, I have two.

C

Extensions, the first one is for eldersburg station file number s-17-0042. This is the.

C

Second extension of this site plan- and it is in commissioner district, five.

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The second one I have is the fields that pheasant run file number p-13-008. This is the fifth.

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Extension, uh it is within commissioner district three, and this subdivision is for seven lots.

C

That's all I have thank you, thank you, and actually, if I could just put in perspective um every two.

D

Years, if you haven't done a pool permit, you have to get an extension. Is that correct so.

C

uh Depending on what kind of process it goes through, so if it's a subdivision, there is a sunset.

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Provision of two years, you would have to get an extension for site plans. It is a provision of 18.

C

Months, okay, yeah so roughly even two years a year and a half for that as well. So when we're on our.

D

Fifth extension: that's almost been 10 years since it's been approved and no action. So just.

D

For prospective reasons and yeah, I often wonder about that and what it does I mean.

A

There's a cascading set of circumstances that are affected by these right. There's a lot of.

C

Variables involved and to the point you're trying to make another way of determining how long it's.

C

Been is the file number itself, so the first letter outlines the process it goes through and then the.

C

Next, two numbers is the year it started, so the second extension is p13, which means it started.

C

At least the file number was created in 2013.. Is there a limit, I think, as long as you're filing.

D

An extensions you can continue indefinitely um one other question with that dave and when you.

D

Do extensions at some point do they have to meet current standards for certain things? If it's been.

D

um Such a long period of time, like stormwater management, for instance or yeah, and I think.

C

That's one of the the variables so the director of development or I'm sorry, the director of land.

C

Of resource management is ultimately the decider as to if these extension requests get approved or.

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Not, and that is one of his criteria- is determining, uh what's an effect what's being proposed and how.

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Does that impact any changes that have occurred between the original approval date and now.

C

And one of those is being if there's been any code changes or updates and whatnot if.

D

That it didn't mean to put you on the spot. There just thought the problem is kind of interesting.

D

Very helpful, thank you, thank you and then um abigail rogers with uh bza cases, she's a brief.

D

Update for you as well, hey happy new year, happy new year happy new year new year, so we've only had.

E

um One case heard on january 3rd, uh that was for metro, bobcat inc at um 33, west old liberty.

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Road sykesville and that's in commission district four. uh It was for a vehicle sales use and it was.

E

Approved and we do not have any other cases pending at the moment. Oh thank you. Abigail.

D

And that is all for my administrative report this morning, all right, thank you and we'll.

A

Move on to item eight, which is uh fy24 preliminary recommended cip and bond authorization, which is mr.

A

Zaleski- I don't see mr zaleski, but I see someone walking up deb effingham, who is the beer chief.

D

Is here in his place this morning and she'll be given the presentation good morning good morning.

F

Okay, as she said, ted is not able to be here today. I am the bureau chief of.

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um Budget every january we come before the planning commission, with the preliminary.

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Recommended cip, to give you an opportunity to review it for consistency with the master.

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Plan you should have two books in front of you: a yellow book and a salmon colored.

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Book, do you have them we do and by the way, cip, is community investment plan right? Yes,.

F

So the salmon colored book this one right here is all the requests that were submitted to the.

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Department of management and budget for the fy 24 through 29 budget cycle and the yellow book is the.

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Preliminary recommended cip that was presented to the board of county commissioners last thursday.

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That establishes our bond authorization that goes to the delegation uh to be submitted for our bond.

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If you could yellow book I'd like to walk you through um contents of this book, so you're.

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Familiar with it when you do review, the second page is the letter to the planning commission.

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And what this outlines is the budget schedule and one of the things we'd like to talk about.

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Is what is the preliminary recommended, cip and what it is not what it is is a.

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First, look at the cip. As I said last thursday, we discussed it with the commissioners. It's.

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Just the very beginning of our discussions on the whole budget process with the commissioners.

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It what we do is we take our existing six-year plan and we start to build on it from there. We.

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We look to see if there's any adjustments that need to be made, and we look also look at the.

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Requests that are being made- and it's like I said the starting point for us to have our discussions.

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With the commissioners, what it is not is it's not the final cip, it's just the very you know.

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Preliminary look at what we believe is affordable. It's the the budget office is still doing a lot.

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Of analysis, we're looking at revenues we're looking at operating budgets, we're still have.

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Some questions that are outstanding on our cip projects and it's not a commitment to the timing.

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Dollars or funding mix um of the projects, the dollars and the funding mix of all these projects.

F

uh The next page uh goes through the different categories in a high higher level summary of.

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The categories of the categories are public schools, conservation and open space, public.

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Works, which includes our roads and our bridges, recreation and culture and general government.

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If you then turn to page seven.

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That is our quick guide. This is also a summary of the projects that are included in this preliminary.

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Recommended, cip, it's not as high level as the letter. This gives you a little bit more detail.

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And it's um based on the cat. You know it goes through the categories on page 11 and.

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Then, starting on page 13 are comparison charts. This is also by category. It will.

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List every single project that was requested so what it will do is it will show you what.

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Was in the prior adopted what was requested and what the preliminary recommended cip and.

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Any changes that were made it's a easy way to see how it's changed over time.

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Starting on page 37, through.

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54 are all financial summary pages.

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And then thereafter, starting on page 57 is the public schools and then it goes into the detail.

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Of the projects, so each category will follow after that, with the details of the projects.

F

um Our preliminary recommended cip is primarily focused on maintaining.

F

Our existing infrastructure there's a handful of projects that are notable that I'd like to point.

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Out to you, but other than these projects, almost everything is just maintaining our.

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Infrastructure, like overlaying our roads and also maintaining our ag pres funding on page 61.

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Is the career and technology center? This is a renovation of the existing space plus an addition.

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To accommodate the growing population that has happened over decades for the amount of people.

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That are going to the career and tech center on page 62, which is the next page, is the east middle.

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Replacement the east middle school replacement. That will be that's on schedule to be complete.

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This summer and will be opening up in the fall- and I forgot to mention the career in tech, they're.

F

Looking for that to be completed in july of 2024., there are some road projects that might be of.

F

Interest to you, there is georgetown boulevard extension that is has funding in fy24 and fy25.

F

That is where what page is that? Oh I'm sorry page 92.! Okay, thank you.

F

Okay, page 92, that's where georgetown and london town meet the plan is to.

F

Put a roundabout in there and also open up the availability for it to.

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um To be extended up to progress way, so that should alleviate some of the traffic issues.

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Down there and safety concerns on page 95. We have monroe avenue extension, another.

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um Road connection in the eldersburg area, there's two monroes there's a new development.

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Coming in this would connect the two so there's continuous flow of traffic and then on page 159.

F

F

This is our sheriff's headquarters, it'll, be located in the government complex, which is across.

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The street from the board of education facility, that is, we're preliminarily, we're looking for that.

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To open by fy26 there's still some land that needs to be purchased over there to make this happen, but.

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We're moving along with it, so those are the most notable things. Everything else like I said is.

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um Maintaining our infrastructure, so what we need from the planning commission is a letter.

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After you've had some time to review this a letter to go to the board of commissioners.

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Prior to us entering into our proposed budget sessions, which begin at the very beginning of.

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April, so I don't know how you want to handle that if you want to schedule it for next month.

F

Or the following month, so typically, what we do is planning, along with other departments, look.

D

For items that are in the master plan as well as other mass, you know other functional plans.

D

Within carroll county- and we request those in the cip request, so that's your salmon copy so.

D

What I'll do is, I always do, is look and see what was requested and then what actually made it into.

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The recommended, and typically we will put down if there's a particular road extension that we felt.

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Strongly about, we will say, may want to consider this an individual budget talks when we go before.

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The board of county commissioners again for that consistent agency, the land use article, which is.

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The kind of book that we live by here for planning commission requires this, so we'll be looking just.

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To make sure that there's nothing that's out of the ordinary which there shouldn't be within the.

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Cip recommended budget- and this is a good way for us to check too if something is contradictory to.

D

The plan or may interrupt something that needs to be approved or adopted and as part of the master.

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Plan, but we can't now because it was put into the cip, which has happened before many jurisdictions.

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Including ours, where we've had items that have come up before so that's just another check and.

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Balance on our whole system of how the budget works, where the rubber meets the road for our.

D

Planning process, essentially so we'll be doing that and typically we do. I think, at the february.

D

um Or or march meeting, just depending on timing, okay, are there any questions.

G

I want to ask too: um this: is the piney run, we're going to be going to improve the piney run dam.

F

That has that is in this product. In this uh cip, I saw it noted in the in the in the.

G

um In the summary I apologize, I didn't go through all the pages on the email that you sent, but you.

G

Is where does it's not a quiz? Could you send me an email and tell me where that is in the in the.

G

Documentation 155., yes, I can send you an email, but I can also tell you where it is hold on one. Second,.

F

I think that's under general government there. It is page 155. good and then I guess the second.

G

Thing, I would ask, is: where are we on the um the sheriff's annex? I don't know what else to call.

G

It uh for the freedom district is that does that begin construction this year? No, actually that was.

F

Removed from the cip, the commissioners chose to remove it from the cip. It was in, I believe,.

F

Maybe it was pulled two or three years ago and they're doing the headquarters. Instead, they.

F

Currently have that lease space down in eldersburg, and I believe that will continue that lease space.

F

But um the sheriff and the commissioners decided you know the commissioners decided to build the.

F

Headquarters instead of spending the money on the annex, is it any other questions? I think.

A

um One thank you for your overview. It's very helpful. It helps us to focus on certain areas.

A

The other thing you know in the past um what linda was talking about the review is something.

A

I think we take pretty seriously and if you look back at our letters, it's not just a rubber stamp.

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um And it won't be this year either. um So we'll look at it very carefully, but it is it.

A

Is encouraging to see some of these extensions and so forth, which have been part of the master plan.

A

I mean a budget is nothing more than priorities, you know allocating scarce resources and so.

A

What makes it in what makes it doesn't? I mean what doesn't make an animal speaks volumes so.

A

We'll take a close look at that, I will say: we've made great headway in the county in general for.

D

These road connections and investing in our infrastructure, um I'm very pleased about that.

D

Progress that we have made over the last several years- and I think it's part and part because of.

D

What this planning commission has done in this planning process and also bringing it forward.

D

In the cip requests and continuing to advocate for those important projects, yeah agreed very much and.

A

um And also, I think in the past, you know our ex-officio commissioner, commissioner,.

A

Has having you at the table, I think, helps because you're hearing it in real time, just like we are.

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um And I think that's a pipeline of information back, not that you agree with everything we're.

A

Doing but at least you're you're here at the table and you're hearing it and you're hearing the discussion and the debate and so forth and I think that's healthy too.

D

So well, thank you very much. Thank you. It's a pleasure talking with you likewise,.

A

All right that was item eight, so we'll move on to item nine, which is the 2023 planning and zoning.

A

Commission work plan so um typically this time of year I kind of bring to you what you'll see.

D

Some items we don't know because their development is on a project by project basis,.

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But I just wanted to give you an at a glance of some of the items you can be expected to.

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Be participating in and making decisions on and forwarding to the board of county commissioners.

D

Through or through the calendar year 23, so I'm just going to pull up my quick presentation.

D

D

Can't read this, I know you can't um but- and I have bulleted points, but typically what we do.

D

In our offices, um we actually print this out old school, make a big poster, and that way too, you can.

D

See at a glance what is programmed throughout the year and when there's opportunities, if you wanted.

D

To bring up a new item or to kind of help us plan, so we don't have these crazy agendas. Sometimes we.

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Can't help it because there's just things that need to get done, but for the most part I do try.

D

To plan a year in advance what we'll be bringing forward to you all! um It's not perfect, and things.

D

May change, but this is just an at a glance of what to expect as the commission to see this year.

D

So obviously, in the month of january, that's where we are today, we did not.

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Have a work session because it was right after the new year, and so this is our first meeting.

D

Which is our business meeting? As you know, we have typically two meetings, sometimes three a.

D

Month, depending if it's a fifth wednesday month or not, if I have wednesday month.

D

um So we actually just did the preliminary cip and bond authorization.

D

um When we also have a rezoning case coming before you, which is going to be a staff report, then in.

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February and we're going to continue our work with the transportation master plan, and that is.

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And actually I apologize. That was also on today's agenda um chapter six, but that is our plan. Major.

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Street, so that's something we just talked about in regards to the um cip and some of the connections.

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That the county incorporates into its cip plan, but also developer driven connections as well.

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um And then we're also going to bring to you traffic impact studies, so we're going to kind.

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Of try to do some little educational pieces about why we do certain things and and how they're done.

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And why they're done, and one of them is the traffic studies the who? What and why. I know.

D

We hear a lot about, tis is when you have a site plan or subdivision, come before you and what that.

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Recommendation is and what that means for the plan itself and what mitigation efforts may need to be.

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Done by the developer of that particular property, so um land and resource management's development.

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Review will be going through kind of in depth that process um and then we'll be doing the.

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Cip, which we just talked about consistency with the master plan, and I will drop a certification.

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Letter for you all to review and you'll have that prior to that meeting, so you can review it and at.

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That meeting discuss and if you want to make any additional changes, we can do that at that time.

D

um In march, we will be talking again a little tutorial or works studies, work session on.

D

um Concurrency management in the freedom area and what that means specifically is.

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We have concurrency management, it's kind of like an adequate public facilities, ordinance.

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Basically, if we don't have the county services to support the development in.

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That community, that can stall development projects, residential or commercial, depending on what the.

D

um Standard is and what is short, what shortfall there is within that system in the freedom mary.

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Specifically, it's the freedom elementary and, I think actually carrollton may be approaching.

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Inadequate at this time, and what does that mean for development? What does that mean and.

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What bearing does that have on your decision making process? How do plans move forward under.

D

That concurrency management realm so we'll be talking to you about that as well, because we.

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Have a few projects that are coming up, we're kind of hitting the limit on some things and.

D

So what does that mean moving forwards? We thought it would be good to introduce that.

D

To you and have a discussion, so you have a full understanding of what that means in your decisions.

D

um And then, as you know, we've had a soft launch so to speak of our carroll county master plan.

D

It's that time again, I believe mr walther's, here at least for the freedom plan. I can't remember if.

D

You're here for the master plan, processor probably came in at the tail end. No, I was here for it. Yeah.

D

My therapist and I talk about that yeah. I know well it's that time again, 10 years, um so we're.

D

Beginning to work on the next master plan, the reason I call it a soft launches is because we.

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Are looking at some background studies that will feed into the master plan a really important study.

D

I think that we need to do and hasn't been done in decades um is really an economic development.

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Study, the idea of this economic development study is to just get a base of where we are in carroll.

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County and what does that mean so when we look forward to the master planning process, we can.

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Look at different scenarios for decision making, depending on you know which, how does the county.

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Want to grow or not grow and move forward in the coming decades. So we'll be working with.

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The consultant, which we already have and we've done a lot of great work with that consultant.

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So they'll be coming before you too, and giving you an update of where we are in that process.

D

In april, um their was at the end of the last board of county commissioners, one of.

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Their last meetings, there was discussion, as you know, on planned commercial centers, which.

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Is part of our commercial districts to look at the code in relation to those districts.

D

um As you recall, you disapproved a site plan for the stoveless property and that was appealed and.

D

Went to the bza as the appellate, they upheld that decision and then there was.

D

um I'm sorry they reversed, I'm sorry and then it went into the circuit court as a it was.

H

An appeal of the bza's decision correct to the circuit court, who appealed that the uh community.

H

Essentially, I didn't know that appealed it to the circuit court and that was eventually uh dismissed.

H

um For failure to provide the full record and transcript to the courts under um the maryland.

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Rules, I'm sure mr rothers you're familiar you have um 60 days or to um to transfer the transcripts.

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From the administrative hearing, which was the bza to the circuit court and the uh appellant failed.

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To do that, so um it was ultimately dismissed by the circuit court. Okay, so the project can.

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Go forward and it still could there was no stay on the project, but the risk you run is if.

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um The circuit court had then changed the decision of the bza. Then that would be the issue it would.

H

Have been a mess right so um because of that um the community came forward to the board of.

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County commissioners and requested that the county code would be reviewed in relation to.

D

How plant commercial centers are developed so we'll be bringing that forward to you and what.

D

Some of the concerns of the community were, and um our and wanted to you know and we'll have that.

D

Discussion of what should be afforded to the board as any recommendations for any potential changes.

D

um To the zoning code in relation to plan commercial center, specifically.

D

As part of that process, can it also include the idea one of my frustrations has been that.

A

We we vet things pretty carefully here. We certainly spend a lot of time on that plan.

A

Just as an example, ultimately, we didn't feel like it was compatible with the surrounding community.

A

um And a bunch of other things and then it goes to the bza, but it's her de novo. So our reasoning, our.

A

Questioning our vetting, not part of the record not taken into consideration totally ignored, because.

A

That's the process, I don't like the process. I feel like that when we vetted here and we hear from the.

A

Community and we hear from their council- and we do all of these things- that that ought to be part of.

A

What's considered on appeal, so it shouldn't be de novo, it should be appealed, but on the.

A

Record, can that be part of the consider I mean. Maybe nobody agrees with me and that's fine, but.

A

um Can that be part of the discussion, because can it need not be part of the discussion if there's.

A

No ability to change the process, so I guess the real question is: is there authority in this.

A

Review to change the process where it could be, uh I'm gonna have to look in the land use article.

H

um Just to see what's specific uh appeal rules, they have um from the planning commission up.

H

um Because, as linda said, the land use article kind of controls- everything we do here, so we might just.

H

Have our hands sort of shackled by what's in the land, use article and not have the ability to.

H

Go from a de novo uh appeal hearing to just a sort of normal one.

A

Yeah, so if it's hardwired that way, certainly I don't know the answer to that, but.

A

um I, for one would be interested in at least having that discussion if.

A

We're able to do that and part of what I've heard from the community is well. Linda has been.

G

You know, maybe uh some architectural guidelines might be in order around that type of development.

G

Because we saw what this, what was done, you know previously, and it really wasn't.

G

What the community anticipated in terms of quality and outcome, and so again I don't know how to.

G

Go about that and I don't even know where, where one would start to have guidelines architectural.

G

Guidelines for mixed use, but what was anticipated and what we ended up with when we, when we approved.

G

One that is now in existence they're at 32 and 26 that wasn't at all with the community anticipated.

G

um You've been away so that could be part of our discussion. That'll be part of our discussion at.

D

That time, yeah just just a note just enough or cannot occur um with regard to this, but.

D

Expect that, sometime in the spring and april and again continuation of our economic development.

D

uh We'll be coming forward to with additional findings and where we stand with that as well.

D

um Expect to see pretty much that most meetings until it's complete our contract goes through.

D

um August, I believe um we were trying to get it done in this facility, but we had a little bit of a.

D

Later start, so it's going to kind of slid forward a little bit so we'll hopefully have that project.

D

Complete, sometimes late sometime in the late summer um in may, um we were directed to have a.

D

Discussion with agricultural preservation efforts in designated growth areas, this is something that.

D

The board has talked about past board and current board about allowing agricultural preservation in.

D

Designated growth areas, typically, our policy is that we do not do that, because that's the balance.

D

Right, you know, our designated growth area is for our development and then our area is outside of.

D

That are for our agricultural preservation efforts that we target, if we do typically do.

D

Ag press and a growth area, it's typically on the periphery and most of the time, there's an.

D

Amendment that occurs prior to that when we work with the municipalities, especially when we do it.

D

In the county, we've done it post and we would re-adjust to the boundary. So that way, we're not.

D

Preserving ag land in the areas that we have set aside for development, so we'll be talking more.

D

About that and where that started- and you know any recommendations to move forward with that as well.

D

As the board of education facilities master plan, as you know, the board of education comes before.

D

This body annually again for consistency with the master plan, our county master plan, our broader.

D

County master plan is kind of like this guiding document for many things, um and so part of that.

D

Is the board of education's facilities master plan, so all of their structures come before you.

D

For consistency with that plan, so again to avoid a situation where um schools being recommended.

D

To be built in an area that may not have the need for a school or meet some of the criteria.

D

um So this again is one of those efforts to kind of have that check and balance to make sure that.

D

Even school construction is consistent with the growth and development policies within the county.

D

um And then, in june we will present you our annual planning report.

D

That annual report is required by state law under the maryland land use article and that.

D

Is all of the development activities that have occurred over the last calendar year so we'll be.

D

Presenting to you the 2022 annual report of all development activity, so that's how many.

D

Plans you've reviewed how many use of occupancy permits have been pulled and approved to any.

D

Zoning changes any code changes. Any map changes any annexations. It's pretty much soup to nuts.

D

The whole gamut of what you would expect to see from the work that you all did, so it's actually.

D

Really nice at a glance of what happened over your year um and then in july. We will continue.

D

Our business meeting at our business meeting with the economic development lane you study workshop.

D

um And so that's it for the specific months really beyond july. You know we do have in november our.

D

Annual um uh administrative rules review as well as elections of chair and vice chair. We will be.

D

Doing that as well um and then, as you know, we mean six months if I have additional things I'll come.

D

Before you in june, just to up update this list or something comes up, but that's what we have so far.

D

Other upcoming efforts is the completion of the transportation master plan, which you all have been.

D

Very much a part of over the last couple years or so um so we'll continue to bring that to you and.

D

Finish it up hopefully, um and mayor, will, give you an update on that sometime this summer um as well.

D

As the completion of the economic development land use study and then we're going to be starting a.

D

Housing study: we have it in our budget to begin that. Housing's. Another critical component of a.

D

Master plan so we're going to be working on what carroll county has and what it may or may not need.

D

um For the future, so we'll be looking at that as well and then, more generally speaking of a.

D

Kickoff, not these soft little launches, but a true kickoff to the 2025 master plant. Perhaps sometime.

D

At the end of this year, beginning of next year, any questions terrifying list, yeah it's a little.

A

Bit like remediating world hunger, peace. I was more ambitious. I just yeah. No, it's good. It's.

A

Good, these are all really important things to the to the community, so don't scare not to be scared.

D

But I just wanted to make sure that you all understand what was coming for you, some really great things and some great movement ahead on stuff that you that you all are working on. So.

A

Very good any questions is there anything else, you'd like to see.

D

On that list, my blood pressure's gone, and I think it's sufficient.

A

um Good well, thank you for that. Of course. Thank you all right. Well then, um I think.

A

Then we're on to item 10 on our agenda, which is a special report. This is the brill hart terrace.

I

Good morning, good morning, good morning, good morning, um kirsten eggroll, I am of the bureau of.

J

Development review you'll, see on your pamphlets there that laura matthias is the person who.

J

Set up this report, I am presenting it for her today for brill hart terrace. If I could.

J

Would you to introduce yourselves please good morning, clark, schaefer, 73, east main.

K

Street here, on behalf of scott ford, scott scott ford, I'm at 3404 shaffer drive in hampstead the.

L

Property owner okay good morning welcome morning good morning. Thank you very much.

J

Okay, I'm gonna open up a presentation here, but in the meantime again I'm kirsten I'll be presenting.

J

This this is brill heart, terrace, section 2 plot a this is a special report report requested by.

J

The property owner, mr scott ford, for our us to review with you and to make a determination on.

J

There's currently no file open for this project yet, but depending on the decision made the day.

J

A file may be opened, so this property is located to the northeast area of the county.

J

This is off of shaffer drive. You can see route 30 right over here to the east.

J

And our site is a little itty bitty right down here, highlighted in orange.

J

You can see in the area surrounding the property, some of its own conservation.

J

This area here is agriculturally zoned, it's tan brown, and this slightly yellow or tan brown is.

J

Residential 40 000., the property in question, is also zoned residential. Forty thousand.

J

This property here highlighted in orange, is the subject property of the site.

J

This property to the east of that is mr ford's house and his own property. In fact, he owns both.

J

Of these properties, they are separate parcels. The parcel in question. The site is a little bit.

J

Less than half an acre in size, it's 0.438 acres in size. It was created as part of a subdivision.

J

Plot back in 1976 you'll have a copy of that in your packet. There, too. The special report is.

J

Before the planning and zoning commission today for a determination about that plan regarding a.

J

Request to remove a note that says reserved for future road regarding that parcel and again that's.

J

Shown on that plat there, you can see it right over the parcel and there's a note about it as well.

J

Which I will read to you as well, since I don't have it in the actual powerpoint.

J

So, yes again, the property owner owns both properties here. So his dwelling.

J

Is in this location, the subject: property is essentially an open lawn. This is a photograph.

J

Of it from very recently, you can see our sign here for posting for this meeting here.

J

This is the neighbor property to the west. This is mr ford's property here to the east.

J

And this ridge back here is essentially the property line, the rear property line.

J

So and I'm not too sure how to go back, oops they're with me: okay, all right! This.

J

Parcel is shown on the plot from 1976. It says reserved for future road. That designation was.

J

Intended to at one point in time, potentially provide access to the parcel in the rear. Here.

J

This parcel is about 41 acres and size. It's owned by a different property owner.

J

The designation of reserve for future road was intended to potentially in the future if the.

J

Property owner, which was a different property owner than the developer of who owned this.

J

This parcel we're talking about today, if that property owner of the property at the north.

J

Decided to subdivide this parcel a could provide access through a county road. The note specifies.

J

On the plaid that this is what the intent was to be and if and when that was processed, that plan.

J

Was processed and that road was designated for use for that subdivision that potential future.

J

Subdivision that at that time, this parcel would be deeded over to the commissioners for that road.

J

Well, that hasn't happened yet, and in fact the property to the north has actually been put.

J

Into an agricultural preservation easement in 2011 that property owner went forward and put it into a.

J

Permanent preservation- easement it's in perpetuity and it's intended to conserve and preserve the.

J

Land, which means we're not going to see a big subdivision back there now it's important to.

J

Note that, even if this wasn't an agricultural preservation, this property has a significant.

J

Amount of road frontage off of broadback road here that they could utilize for access for that.

J

Subdivision this parcel is parcel a was. Never the only point of access for the subdivision.

J

But that's almost beside the point now, since they are no longer able to process that kind of division.

J

So the request again is that that note be removed. I am going to read some excerpts.

J

From that row that note, as I would like to have it on the on the presentation, but I.

J

Just don't have that slide, so the note that we're referencing here that would be removed.

J

And the designation and the annotation on the parcel condensed because it's very long is- is.

J

Essentially, as as follows, general note, 14 reads the 50-foot wide reservation for future road.

J

As shown here on is dedicated to the county commissioner, to carroll county for public use,.

J

At such time that a public works agreement is accepted for the construction of a road.

J

To serve the property to the north of schaefer road and at that time a deed will be executed.

J

By the owners conveying that area to the county commissioners, so this parcel was never actually.

J

Owned by the county commissioners, but that note reads is that if and when that property.

J

To the north goes through subdivision, and that parcel is shown to be a road, then that will be.

J

Needed to the commissioners, so it was a private property sale, the property owner, mr ford's owned.

J

It for a number of years now, in fact decades I believe now has been an ownership of that yeah. So.

J

um It's not it's, not a commissioner parcel we're not saying that we're changing the ownership to.

J

The commission from the commissioners it's a parcel that he already owns it.

J

Was only set aside for potential dedication in the future if that division happens, which.

J

It's not going to happen now due to the fact that property is an agricultural preservation agreement.

J

So the request before you today for this special report is that the determination.

J

Was made by the planning commission regarding the removal of the annotation and that note on that.

J

Plot, so the parcel can be unencumbered by that designation following this determination from.

J

The commission, the owner, will submit an amend, a plot to be processed by the county review staff.

J

And we'll remove that designation from that flat. That is the request before you today and I'll be.

J

Happy to answer the questions, I'm sure mr ford and mr schaefer be happy to answer any questions.

J

As well, thank you yeah, mr schaefer, uh good morning again. Yes, we are here to answer any questions. We.

K

Think this is a pretty easy one, but if anybody has any questions, we're willing to do it, I will add a.

K

Couple I think, salient points. One is that mr ford has talked to several of his neighbors and their.

K

Very in favor of this, especially the guy to the left, who is his neighbor and who has always just.

K

Like mr ford thought, this was part of his lot, although he knew he knew. The note was on it, but.

K

And by the way, he's paid taxes on it for all these years um and uh um and he's also talked to royce.

K

Wagner, who is a son or grandson of mrs wagner, the owner of the other property early on when he came.

K

To me and and royce said to him: hey, what's the big deal, it's in a conservation, easement.

K

um We didn't know that at that point, so we quickly went to the land records and said.

K

It's in a permanent conservation easement, meaning that it could never be used. um These things.

K

Namely, these reservations are all over the place from the old days they sometimes come up. These.

K

Days and they're all different languages. This is this is the first time I've seen this language, but.

K

I've seen other language, I've seen just the note saying reserve, but anyway, that we don't need to.

K

Get into that here they, it was probably a good intention when it was put on as staff pointed.

K

Out it was to provide a secondary access to that wagner, piece which clearly is no longer needed.

K

I'll just add one more thing, and I'm some of you been through this before the the other end of this.

K

Is when you've got a situation where the parcel does that benefits from it does develop?.

K

And then you come to this established neighborhood and say by the way, uh we're.

K

Just going to make a connection through and from your, what you think is a little private.

K

Street there, which is public street, but which is your private little neighborhood and we're.

K

Going to add, I don't know, 34 lots to it and they're going to just come through here and.

K

Then people come to you and say no, no, no don't let them do it, uh but that's.

K

That's not today, so we appreciate we would appreciate your recommendation to remove this.

K

um Restriction or or a cloud on this title so that mr ford can start.

K

Comfortably using it as part of his part of his yard, so um so, as mr schaefer knows my day job, I.

A

Mean I'm a lawyer, but it doesn't involve real estate, so I know just enough to be dangerous.

A

And get most stuff wrong. What appear to be stupid questions this makes perfect sense um to me. The.

A

How does this relate? It seems to me that we're taking a right away, the there's a right that.

A

Belongs to the property owner behind you, they have a right of access. It's been on these. It's.

A

This is how it's designated and conveyed to them, so we're taking this away. Aren't we if, if I could.

J

Speak to that, the note that I I didn't read every single word, but I read most of that. That.

J

Note 14, uh it states that it's it's dedicated to the county and then it goes on to say that.

J

If and when that public works agreement for a public road is established on that parcel than.

J

Is dedicated to the county, I don't think that and maybe clark, maybe you could get a little.

J

More info on that, but I don't think that this is necessarily the same thing as saying that there's.

J

A right away for access, ingress and egress to the farm property. I think it says that this is.

J

Reserved and set aside just in case that property develops and if it does developed, then it gets a.

J

Public road and that public road goes to the county. I don't think it's the same as saying.

J

You can have a farm farmed road through here it does it's not an easement in legalese yeah yeah.

K

To use the the legal analysis, no, it's not a right; uh it would be a right if the county had forced.

K

By the way illegally, but if the county would have forced the owner of the property at that time to.

K

Grant an easement to the adjoining property owner and that and and that had occurred, then that.

K

Property owner would have would have an easement uh or if the property owner him or herself at that.

K

Time that did this subdivision would have done it, uh then that property and it would have a right.

K

They don't have a right by virtue of the node on a plat that was required and and now you've forced.

K

Me to go into the uh to the illegality. You can't the government can't do this, you back in 76 or.

K

Whenever this was, you can't say to a property owner, oh by the way, just take a piece of your.

K

Property and here it's 50- feet: okay and a bunch of lights, but consider a master plan street a bypass.

K

And the farmer, you know it goes across the farmland and the farmer wants to.

K

Do something out there and the government says I'll, tell you what we've thrown a line on a map.

K

And therefore, why don't you just mark that area reserved for future road.

K

uh What what do you mean? How wide oh make it a hundred feet? Because it's going to be a bypass.

K

Put it across there 100 feet well, why? Well, because we we plan it, we, it might be a future bypass.

K

Anyway, the case law is clear that the government has the ability to uh regulate that farmer's use.

K

Of his land, but in the case of a reservation that must be limited to like two or three years.

K

Something like that, in other words, if you're, if, if the government wants it for public benefit,.

K

They can reserve, but they got to put up or shut up within a certain amount of time, not 40 years.

K

um It's not and it and when you think about it, doesn't make sense.

K

Does it I mean why would you want to tie up somebody's land for 40 years? You know.

K

In case you might need it, but anyway I I think it's so these things are.

K

I don't know I'm not going to call them illegal because they're part of the subdivision process.

K

And if the developer says: okay, if you approve my lights, I'll put these through.

K

um In any event, uh it clearly does not it's not a situation that involves a legal right for the.

K

Wagners, okay! Well, I was having trouble getting my mind around exactly what this reservation is.

A

um So you've helped a little bit with that. We just certainly don't want to make it more complicated.

A

Than it is well and frankly I mean, like I say, good intention, but when you start thinking about these.

K

Things on the ground, I mean I've been involved in five or six of them over the years. There's.

K

One off on brem road, where they they had a similar one. Similar to this, it was one that said when the.

K

P, when the interior property wants to develop, uh they'll, sign a pwa and then they'll build.

K

A road over this reserve strip, well, the county commissioners, got rid of that one, because the.

K

Neighbors didn't want uh stacy lee drive, they didn't want uh people coming through there to.

K

Get to the in the interior, um the other thing, just if you want to get into the complications of this.

K

Kind of stuff is under modern construction. uh The topography looks pretty pretty pretty level there.

K

But under modern uh road standards, I don't know if you could build a road in a 50-foot right away.

K

uh You know you remember, you need grading, easements slope easements on the adjoining.

K

Lots you need to do construction works, uh you need to move equipment around now. I noticed they've got.

K

An apron somebody was smart enough to put an apron 100 foot wide apron at the front, because there's.

K

Going to be curb cuts right on these people's lives, but but anyway, this is it's clear here that.

K

There will I'll say: never, because that easement's perpetual there will never be a request from the.

K

Interior property owner to try to execute that pwa and get a preliminary plan approved. Because that's.

K

What the note says when you get a preliminary plan approved, will then let you build a road over that.

K

Over that area, that can never happen now, because it's in it won't happen. No, it can happen. I guess.

A

Two other things one is so, did you say that the owner of the property? That's now in agpres,.

A

Is aware of this, and they have no problem with this or where does that stand the grandson of.

K

The song, the son, if royce, who is the son and then the grandson, who does the farming as well.

L

um We I had spoken to him just because we had become friends he's bringing eggs around, and I.

L

Don't believe he was aware of any of this because I had talked to him about it and he just said why.

L

Would we do that, I'm the eighth generation farm? In this thing we have no plans of getting rid of.

L

Doing anything but farm that land, okay, so no indication right now. Anybody poses this and.

A

Then the last thing is it's not landline. If you take this away, there are other points of egress.

A

And ingress correct it's a little bit difficult to see with the scale of this.

J

Map but this property here the analysis centered on is the property in question.

J

Right over here on the western side, this full length here- that's a public road.

J

um Lots of access yeah they have- I mean it's- got to be hundreds of feet in length.

J

Of access there, so even if again, even if this was not under a preservation agreement,.

J

They would still have the ability and plenty of frontage to put any number of subdivision.

J

Lots there if we put everything else aside, um all right, yeah yeah james, do you have any.

M

Questions, no, that's um pretty clear-cut, I think, and broadbeck road would serve the property if.

M

They decide to do anything so michael yeah, I I was just just for some clarification. I I.

I

um When I was reading through the notes here, the the piece of property to the north.

I

The 41 acres- that's in ag press. Yes, this one right here in the deed of easement reference, 68 acres,.

I

So, where did that change to 41 or I believe, a portion across the road is.

J

Also under their ownership and in fact this whole strip here, this green area.

J

This whole area here is also under conservation. There are actually multiple parcels in this area.

J

As quite a bit of agricultural preservation in this area, which is nice to see right in.

J

This area here, where it's not colored in it's town limits, so it's really nice to see that of budding.

J

uh Linda was talking about that earlier with the agricultural preservation in and near growth areas.

J

So yes, there's quite a bit of that here in this area, this property is preserved. These.

J

Are preserved and I'm pretty sure this chunk right here is that 20 acres- that's not included in this.

J

Piece here it's part of the deed, that's part of the deed, and it is preservation. It's part of the.

J

Conservation easement, I don't know if they have it split up like the property in there themselves,.

J

Could have two separate parcels that they put in together for this single conservation, easement.

K

This conservationism has three parcels. Yes, I'm just looking at the the screams on the back of.

K

It here it consists of three parts. Apparently so there, the portion, that's not in preservation,.

I

Is that whatever that road is that you were just talking about uh to the uh east right there? That's.

I

Not in um preservation right where the tip of the pointer is there are some lots here that already.

J

Have houses, I believe some or all of those are excluded from preservation. However, this piece here.

J

Yeah, the property in question that 40 acre area is in preservation, and so are these.

J

Green portions here so both sides are brought back in this area, are in preservation. Of course,.

J

All the lots along shaffer are also developed, and it looks like these already have houses.

J

Here too, so everything basically to the north of this is either already developed or locked.

J

Into a permanent preservation, easement, okay and there would be access if it's not right.

I

Correct broadback is a public road, so they'll be able to utilize that for access.

A

I'm guessing that's how the farmer gets on the property now yeah.

J

It is yep. Thank you anything else. Much.

N

um Will this lobby, like still the same flower, would be absolved into your current property.

N

Or like what can be used for this lot, like in the future, it'll be merged into his current lot.

K

Effectively by a mended plat, so it'll all become hill. His lot will just become bigger by by that.

K

Okay, that'll be all paper because on the ground it looks it's his it's his lot now.

K

But paper wise it'll be merged in okay tax, wise too tax wise too yeah. I've had several issues of.

L

Mortgage companies not paying one because they didn't realize there was two he's a set. It's.

K

Assessed at forty three hundred dollars, so I'm just interesting, I'm paying taxes on gentlemen.

A

All right, so what you're looking for from us, I think, if I read the report correctly, is.

A

See a determination from the planning and zoning commission regarding removal of the annotation quote reserve for future roads.

A

On the plat and the related general note so that the parcel may be unencumbered by the designation.

A

Correct, that's correct, okay, so help us formulate what sort of emotion we need to accomplish. What.

A

You need accomplished my emotion to uh uh authorize the removal of the note and the.

K

Designation on the plat: no, it's no 14. I think it is isn't it yeah. Let's specify note 14.

A

I can to adopt that as their motion I'll give that a go.

A

um You could just incorporate it by reference, absolutely a move that we remove note 14.

G

um And the annotation reserved for future road on the plat so that it can be merged into one.

G

Parcel does that work yeah, it does. Okay. Is there a second okay? So we have a motion and a second I'm.

A

Not going to re-articulate it because I just might get it wrong, but I think the record is pretty clear: is there any further discussion can do we need a roll call, or can we just do.

I

A voicemail okay, all in favor, oh yeah yeah. I forgot to do the public comment. I'm gonna.

A

Hold that vote in a balance. Does anyone in the public have uh have any comments on this.

A

All right, then, we'll uh we'll proceed. So we have emotions. You know all the people in the.

K

Audience they're not neighbors right I'd like to say I knew that, but I forgot to ask about.

K

Public time, because I always do um okay so we'll proceed with the vote, all in favor hi.

A

Is there anyone opposed or abstaining all right, then the motion carries the notes removed. Thank.

J

You very much thank you, gentlemen. All right. The next item on our agenda is a recess, so.

A

We're gonna take a 10 minute recess. Thank you thanks. Everyone. Thank you. Good luck.

A

All right, yeah, we'll talk, she took a 14-minute recess. How long does a 10-minute recess last.

A

14 minutes, so uh all right, we'll call the meeting back to order and we are on item 12.

A

Of our agenda, which is rezoning case, number 228, eldersburg investors, 2 llc and I think.

A

Ms weber is going to give us an introduction. Yes, um actually, this was first introduced to.

O

You guys at your december 13th meeting. So this is a discussion and a recommendation.

O

For the board of county commissioners um with us today we have the property owner and then the.

O

The representative, if clark, you want to introduce everybody yeah good morning again, clark schaefer.

K

uh Here, on behalf of the property owner tom pilon, who is a principal uh with the owner, I have matt.

K

Herf, who is our a new partner in our firm with us here, to watch and and learn, and we have.

K

Matt taylor from st john we're the best health for investors and andy stein and kelly miller.

K

But there's only tom and I will be up here to take the brunt of.

K

The of the interrogation well welcome everybody glad to see you here. Thank you.

O

With that, I'm going to go ahead and get started with my presentation.

O

um I'll give my presentation, and then you guys ask me questions. However, you want to go about it.

O

um So with that rezoning case number 228, eldersburg investors llc- um if you remember.

O

This was first introduced at on your january 13th meeting. We are in the commissioner district.

O

Five in the freedom designated growth area, the petitioned area is these four parcels locating.

O

Ourselves obviously south of maryland 26, and then here we have the liberty exchange shopping center.

O

The petitioned area totals approximately 12.47 acres. The applicant is arguing both a mistake in.

O

The current zoning and a substantial change in the character of the neighborhood has occurred.

O

So the current zoning of these four parcels is c2 commercial medium. The request is to.

O

Rezone all four parcels to c3. You can see we have a mix of zoning districts.

O

In the surrounding area of conservation are 20, 000 are forty thousand and I won.

O

Since the petitioners are arguing that there was a substantial change in the character of.

O

The neighborhood we had to agree upon a neighborhood boundary that the change.

O

Occurred in here we have the petition parcels. The neighborhood boundary extends north of.

O

Maryland 26 across accompanying liberty exchange and then down to the west to the.

O

Cleves mill intersection with 26th and then looping back around on the south side of 26.

O

As always, we sent the petition out for agency comments, and these are the agencies we sent on the.

O

Transmittal to we received one advisory comment from the health department. The proposed use may.

O

Not be acceptable unless it is demonstrated that there is an adequate water supply and.

O

Adequate area for the installation of an initial and two replacement septic systems.

O

For the proposed use and any existing uses of this property- and this comment is only oh.

O

Is only regarding this parcel number 703, the second from the left.

O

So getting into the arguments, as I said at the beginning, the petitioners are arguing.

O

A mistake in the current zoning. Obviously this is a lot of verbiage, I'm just going to hit the.

O

Highlights of their arguments, as the petitioners will have their time to go into further detail.

O

The petitioner alleges mistake in the current zoning of c2 commercial medium, the zoning.

O

Authority did not and could not anticipate, that these four contiguous parcels would come under the.

O

Control and ownership of a single entity and thus would present commercial development opportunities.

O

That are more appropriate for a c3 zoning district. The properties was mistakenly viewed as not.

O

Eligible for immediate sewer service during the most recent comprehensive rezoning of the parcels.

O

The individual rezonings show that more intense commercial uses, such as a business.

O

Park have been recognized as appropriate for the area the individual rezonings within the.

O

Neighborhood have allowed for an unanticipated commercial development along liberty, road.

O

The continuing development of the liberty exchange project, including potential development of the.

O

Pad sites directly across maryland, 26 from the property could and likely will entail.

O

A commercial development that would be compatible with c3 zoning, unlike some of the other c2 zoning.

O

Properties along maryland, 26, this property backs up to agricultural zone land, a lower density, slash.

O

Mixed-Use type zone, which would be compatible with c3 uses such as a business park, also the I-1 zone.

O

Property immediately to the east of the subject, properties suggests that a heavier zone than c2.

O

Would be appropriate and then the property is appropriate for a c3 zoning designation.

O

Which is the only zoning district in the county allowing for a development of a business park.

O

So those were the petitioners arguments of mistake and these are the staff conclusions.

O

Staff believe there was no mistake in the last comprehensive rezoning and applying.

O

The c2 designation to the petitioned area at the time of the last comprehensive rezoning.

O

Three of the four parcels in the petitioned area were requested by the then property owner.

O

To rezone from r20 to c2, this was a part of the by request phase of the comprehensive rezoning.

O

Process in 2020 and 2021, and I'm sure some of you are familiar with this particular rezoning.

O

Following an in-depth research of the rezoning request, a staff report was.

O

Prepared by planning staff and presented to the county, planning, commission and the board of county.

O

Commissioners, staff and planning commission gave a favorable recommendation to rezone.

O

To c2 in the board of county commissioners ultimately approved and adopted the rezoning.

O

The fourth parcel that was not a part of the 2020 by request phase was rezoned from r 20 000.

O

To business general following the comprehensive rezoning process in the early 2000s, this process.

O

Was similar to the 2020 and 2021 by request process when the then property owner applied for.

O

A rezoning and staff, a staff report was prepared by planning staff and presented to both planning.

O

Commission and board of county commissioners, the zoning was ultimately changed from r20 to.

O

Bg and then with the elimination of the bg zoning district, it was placed in the c2 district, which.

O

Is what it is? Currently, the petitioned area was given a land use designation of commercial, medium.

O

In the 2018 freedom community comprehensive plan making its current c2 zoning consistent with this.

O

Land use designation so because of this, the the designation of the petitioned area as c2 was.

O

Deliberate as each parcel was specifically looked at for its current zoning of c2.

O

So that was the mistake argument and now we're going to get into the substantial change argument.

O

The petitioner says that there have been substantial changes in the character of.

O

The neighborhood related to road improvements surrounding rezonings.

O

Changes to the water and sewer service areas and development of the surrounding area.

O

Changing the public sewer service status of a property is a substantial change in the character.

O

Of the property, rendering it a different animal in the neighborhood, with real potential to affect and.

O

Influence the neighborhood in a fundamentally different way than a septic, well property.

O

Zoning tax amendments that have been adopted allowed for hybrid retail, slash, industrial.

O

Uses thus changing the character of the neighborhood by creating a tenant mix.

O

Virtually next door to the property that would be more compatible with a c3 zoning.

O

Again, just going over the highlights, as they will get more in detail with the petitioner and then.

O

The staff conclusions of the change arguments staff believes there has been a change in the.

O

Character of the neighborhood, the petitioned area applied for and is currently going through, a water.

O

And sewer fall amendment the property is currently in the existing and priority service category for.

O

Water and long-range service category for sewer. The purpose of the amendment is to bring the.

O

Entire petitioned area into the priority service categories for both water and sewer, bringing the.

O

Petitioned area into these service categories will increase the allowable water, water and.

O

Sewer allocation for a possible development, the county planning commission reviewed this and gave.

O

This amendment, a favorable recommendation to the board of county commissioners. This amendment is.

O

Currently going the public going through the public hearing process with the port of county.

O

Commissioners and it will be ultimately forwarded to maryland department of the environment for.

O

Their approval, as stated in the petitioner's argument of change, maryland case law, specifically.

O

Notes that changes in public water and sewer infrastructure can constitute a substantial change.

O

And lastly, at the time when the c2 zoning district was designated to the petitioned.

O

Area in 2021 county staff were unaware. The petitioned area would come under.

O

The control and ownership of a single entity ultimately increasing the acreage of the parcels.

O

Some of the major differentiating factors and uses allowed in the c2 and c3 district.

O

Are intensity and necessary acreage. The c3 zoning district allows for more intense uses.

O

But those uses also tend to require a larger acreage. Now that the petitioned area has.

O

Increased in acreage due to ownership, it may be more suitable for c3 uses.

O

So staff recommends that the zoning for the petitioned area be rezoned to c3 or.

O

Commercial high, though the petitioner failed to prove a mistake in the zoning during the most.

O

Current comprehensive rezoning staff believes there is reasonable information constituting a.

O

Substantial change in the character of the neighborhood, as I said at the beginning, we.

O

Are here for a recommendation to the board of county commissioners.

O

We are also here to discuss the arguments with the applicant and then we have time.

O

With the board of county commissioners on january 26th for an introduction and request.

O

To go to public hearing, we have a tentative public hearing schedule date set for february.

O

16Th and then february 23rd, if they are not able to come to a to a decision on the 16th.

O

Realized that was a lot of information yeah. That was very helpful. It was really well done.

A

um Mr schaefer, thank you. um This is uh is an interesting one. I guess they're all interesting.

K

To me- or at least I wouldn't be doing this anymore, but um you know this change mistake as you. I think.

K

Learned they're both terms of art, they don't mean what normal people think they mean when.

K

You read them on a page and I think the key that I want to get across with in that regard here today.

K

Is that, while mistake, for instance it it can be, what a layman thinks is a mistake, um I can prove.

K

That the the this should have been yellow, but the guy colored it blue. You know a scrivener's error.

K

um You can also have certain other mistakes where the zoning uh authority, which you're part.

K

Of you know when I say zoning authority, it's the commissioners ultimately, but you as a as a zone.

K

Where I say the zoning authority made a mistake because they didn't know things and they acted.

K

uh With incomplete information, it is not mean they're stupid. It.

K

Does not mean somebody blew it necessarily sometimes it can. It does not mean that the.

K

Staff didn't present the right information, and this is a perfect uh a case for this.

K

um This is a case where the c2 zoning- uh it was good zoning when it was put on a couple years ago,.

K

And the reason it was good zoning, then I I'll say that nobody else has to agree or disagree with me.

K

um Although I think linda does um is that it was when you look at those parcels two three years.

K

Ago you saw a big, the big parcel. If you look at it, that's parcel 222, that's the parcel that had the.

K

Bg on it at one time, okay, then you see three smaller residential parcels all in separate.

K

Ownership, I think they were on. I knew that partial 220., and- and so you go well, what do we zone this.

K

Well, you got to assume that somebody that owns one or some of those parcels is going to come.

K

In for a c2 use at some point or c1 use- and you don't want them to have a c3, because it's first.

K

Of all the c3, you don't need a big piece of ground to do. Do the c2s most of them um they're a little.

K

Less intense, so it clearly makes some sense uh at that point in time. So what we have here.

K

Whether you call a change or mistake are changed circumstances that were unknown or unknowable.

K

At that time, and, and that is specifically, these parcels are now been acquired by a single owner.

K

And and in a position to be consolidated into one development of 12 acres. Well, the 12 acres is key.

K

Here, because under c3 you can do a business, the requested zoning you can do a business park, but.

K

Business parks have to be 10 acres minimum, so you couldn't have done a business park.

K

Under the sea too, and not only that you couldn't have done a business part, because the parcels.

K

Were under all under 10 acres, um the the water and sewer change is also a big as planning as.

K

Staff and by the way this is a carefully written report, I think it's a little longer than some of.

K

Them you get, but uh [music] staff correctly points out that the change in the water mass plant is a.

K

Huge change in the character of the property and impacts directly the type zoning that the zoning.

K

Authority would have put on this if they'd have known it was going to become, and now it hadn't.

K

Become yet we've had a public hearing and the record's open for 10 days, but it's recommended.

K

And this is this: water and sewer map is going to change and, and that works either a change.

K

Or a mistake, and I don't think you have to find judicially because you're not you're, not I I at.

K

This point you're not operating that either either one or both. I think you need what that. What that.

K

This unique merrell the change mistake, rules unique to maryland. You go to south carolina.

K

You want to change property from one unit to 400 units. You get three out of five votes on.

K

The local town council, it's rezoned, uh maryland, uh adopted to change mistake to try to create a gate.

K

Through which the zoning authority has to go before they can rezone, okay, we've.

K

Seen that gate studied it, your staff has seen that gate and that gate is open.

K

And if you look at this case, I would say this is a. This is the way the system is supposed to work.

K

You've got a you've got a dynamic corridor that has a lot of stuff happening in it.

K

um You you've got a master plan. You do once every was it six years now.

K

You're supposed to do every 10 years, so you might not look at this again for 10 years.

K

um And you need the ability to make amendments, you don't have to make the amendment and keep in.

K

Mind all the gate does is open up and now it allows the zoning authority to to amend. Does.

K

It require them to amend, except in very limited circumstances, doesn't require, so it allows them.

K

To take a look at this and we're asking you and and we've have asked you to take a look at this.

K

See if you think the c3 zoning makes more sense for this, it's no secret that ellsberg investors.

K

Is a offshoot of saint john properties and st john developed the liberty exchange across the street.

K

And has its eye on this as a similar, you know type development on liberty.

K

Road they're happy to be in carroll county and they they like to be in carroll county more so.

K

I think now's the time I think we've shown that we, the gates open uh and uh I think, we've shown.

K

It to c3 zoning uh makes sense. I think your staff agrees with us at the c3. Zoning makes sense. This.

K

Is an opportunity opportunity to amend and we would appreciate your recommendation to the.

K

County commissioners, so that we can proceed to a public hearing and uh and put our case on before.

K

The commissioners, thank you all right. Well, thank you um appreciate the presentations for me at.

A

Least, they're very helpful I'll start and then, as usual, I'll turn it over with other questions, did.

A

You have something um I would question yeah. Well, not a question. Oh that's right. You wanted to yeah.

A

I was involved with these properties um the three smaller ones from the beginning.

M

um Until the end, when saint john or eldersburg, investors bought the property, so.

M

Well, thank you for the disclosure, um but that's all done and that's in the past. It is.

A

So a couple questions uh or comments, I guess just to share for discussion purposes.

A

My my take on this one I agree very much. This is how it's supposed to work.

A

um And I think all the hard work we do on the master plan. We take a lot of data in and we're.

A

Supposed to, I think, have a 30-year time horizon when we do master plans. Of course, it's hard to.

A

Look out into the future 30 years because it's hard to know what's going to happen tomorrow.

A

But we try and that's the purview of that. But in the meantime life happens and it's dynamic and.

A

um This is the process that, as mr schaefer said, lets us take into account changes.

A

In the not in the defined term, changes the changes in life um and uh to be able to adapt and measure.

A

That against spot zoning, really where I love west virginia, but there are places in west virginia.

A

Where maybe they should have a process similar to this? um So I hold that up just really as a.

A

Contrast, so we want to make sure that we've got um we're looking at things more broadly.

A

With that in mind, um I was very much a part of the conversation way back when um around.

A

These properties, when they were residential and they wanted to make them something other than.

A

Residential- and I remember struggling with that a little bit because and I think the family, um it.

A

Might have been father or son, something like that, but they they own these properties and they were.

A

Very much residential in character, um and they were asking us to look out ahead 30 years and at.

A

The property that's being used across um liberty, road, where st john has that nice development and.

A

Say if you look out 30 years, it's not really crazy to think that there could be some similar.

A

Uses here and you ought to be forward thinking, that's the whole part of planning, we're not the.

A

The response commission were supposed to be the planning commission, so you look out 30 years and.

A

They made the case for me at least, and I was comfortable moving and I think what the time.

A

Was bg um there were different owners, so they were smarter, smaller parcels.

A

um So, where I come down, I'm not convinced on the mistake argument. I don't think there.

A

Was a mistake, I was pretty deliberate in looking at the character of these things and.

A

Kind of had to push me up a little bit of a hill to go from residential, given that there's other.

A

Residential and you've got ag into uh into bg, which is now really the the c2. But I got there.

A

um But it wasn't something that I feel like, okay, and by the way I appreciate mr chevy, your.

A

Sensitivities, I didn't take it that you were calling us stupid or that we made a mistake.

A

Because we weren't paying attention, but it's nice to never do that in public. That's right!.

K

That's right! Well, I would say almost never but anyway, uh but thanks for that. So anyway, I from.

A

My perspective, having been here maybe longer than some of the others, um I don't. I don't.

A

Think you make the case in my view, you don't make the case for a mistake um under the standards that.

A

We're talking about here, I do think it was very deliberate, um but on the um substantial change.

A

In the character of the neighborhood I'm sold on that, I think that um that the water and the sewer.

A

um Very much um change what we can do, and I also think that the um the single ownership which.

A

Now makes it a 12 acre parcel opens up things consistent with the use of a business park and.

A

So I think, um and I still keep my eye on the on your development across the street- I think these.

A

Things can work hand in glove for the community. So anyway long way of saying I I don't think you make.

A

The case, in my view on mistake, but I do think you make it on the substantial change in the character.

A

Of the neighborhood- and so I I'm all in on making a positive recommendation to the florida county.

A

Commissioners, um so having been involved from the very beginning on this, it was a hard sell.

M

Originally because it was well and septic, and you know, even though it was a commercial designation.

M

They were limited in what they could do. um I I agree that the change of zoning is probably.

M

A little bit of a stretch, but the change in water and sewer had we have had water and sewer.

M

The sellers would have probably been a lot happier with the outcome than what ultimately happened.

M

Although they were happy so I would think that the change in in that constitutes making a good case.

A

I I agree with what you guys are both saying I I you know. I think that the mistake argument.

I

Is difficult the uh you know one thing I'm sitting here, I'm listening and like.

I

You know the the change in the character of the neighborhood doesn't doesn't uh change.

I

To c3 also create a change in the character of the neighborhood. I you know you can argue.

I

Both ways but the water and sewer is the key here so uh I'd agree. I think it makes sense.

N

Mr lester good, no, I agree with you guys, commissioner, any questions all right.

A

Well then, it sounds like uh sounds like it's sold. Your argument is.

A

Yielding a recommendation positive recommendation to the board of county commissioners, so we need.

A

To actually, I guess have a motion, yes, um that we make that positive recommendation to the board.

A

Of county commissioners chair would be happy to entertain that motion. Mr chair, you you, sir, you.

K

Forgot to ask for a public comment, I don't think I don't. I think I still know everybody out there.

A

You know on my sheet clerk, it doesn't say I have to do that. I didn't actually forget it.

I

Doesn't say public comment on the number 12. yeah? No there's! No, that's my time, not that I'm going.

A

To say the public can't comment, um and so nothing wrong with inviting any public company. Is there.

N

Any public member of the public that isn't already affiliated with this in some ways anyway, I'm going.

K

To have to start helping linda, prepare those charts anyway, but always I always appreciate the.

A

Help uh so we uh so if I can just before we make the motion just so, you know the weight of what.

D

You're doing when you forward, this is actually one of the five findings that the board of county.

D

Commissioner looks at boards accounting commissioners look at when they approve a.

D

Piecemeal rezoning and if the planning commission recommendation is one of the items that they look.

D

At heavily and making their decisions so just because we haven't done one of these in a while, we.

D

Just had one last month so again, just to refresh your memories that you know this is something that.

D

They look at when it goes to them, so I appreciate that very much. It's a good. It's a helpful reminder.

A

um For us, and just because we're enjoying ourselves as we talk about the conversation.

A

um Doesn't mean that we're doing it casually? um I think we understand the weight of what.

A

We're doing, and I think we're looking at this um carefully and deliberatively um that's the way.

A

I believe our commission is dealing with. So are you ready for a motion, I'm ready for a motion? I.

G

Would move that we uh rezone this property from c2, which is medium commercial to c3, which is.

G

High commercial, based on the change in the character of the neighborhood and forward it to.

A

The board of county community, yes and forward it. Thank you, have a motion. Is there a second a second.

A

So we have a motion, and second does this need a uh I think. So, just in case someone has a.

D

Different opinion: yep. Okay, so we have a motion. We have a second. Is there any further discussion.

A

Okay, then, why don't we have a roll call miss kirkner? Yes, mr lester, yes,.

D

Mr kane, yes, mr smith, yes, mr klosik, yes, please let the rucker reflect that fiverr in favor.

D

And the motion carries. Thank you very much. Thank you all very much appreciate your good.

A

Work on this just also just like to add that I I also know that people watch these because.

K

I've been approached at the supermarket, both for my autograph and for people to throw some.

K

Stuff at me, you know you have the produce section, it's a soft produce section, hopefully not eggs.

A

Thank you all very much.

A

All right, we'll move on to item 13, which is the transportation master.

A

Plan- and this is an introduction to chapter six.

M

Good morning, good morning,.

P

um I'm sorry this mouse confounds me every time oops. Is it the same testy mouse.

A

We have, it is the same test emails, but I seem to be worse than most people.

P

The introduction of chapter six, the plan, major roadways or I'm sorry, planned roadway.

P

Projects you'll recall, we've been to you claire, and I probably every meeting since.

P

October, going over what was well, let me move along with the presentation.

P

um We've been here with chapter five, and this is the continuation of that. So we will not.

P

Today be going through street by street at some point and I'm not sure linda included.

P

All of those on her work program, but we will be here going street by street road by road.

P

um So this chapter includes all the plan: major roadway projects in carroll county there's three.

P

Different categories of them, the planned state, highway projects, plan major streets and plan.

P

Neighborhood connections, all the list of projects have originated in a state or local planning.

P

Document or are the result of a recognized capacity, connectivity or safety improvement and.

P

That's really important to remember they're, not all capacity problems. That issue has come up a few.

P

Times some of them are safety, and some of them are connectivity to the overall area. It's also.

P

Important to remember the alignments are generally for planning purposes. The exact alignments are to.

P

Be determined at the time of design. So, basically, when you see these, the goal is to get from point.

P

A to point, b and oftentimes, if they're part of a development, the development review staff works.

P

With the developer to accomplish that, but what you see on the map isn't necessarily where it will be.

P

um Projects such as resurfacing minor intersection improvements, traffic signing lighting and.

P

Signalization and bridge rehabilitation and enhancement projects are not included on this list.

P

So the purpose of our review today is to give you a general overview of the.

P

Chapter, I believe it was emailed to you. We will be sending out in the next few.

P

Days for your future review of it, it looks like this: it's going to be much easier for.

P

You to read it's 11 by it's 18 pages 11 by 17, mostly tables and maps, and that's.

P

In line with what we discussed earlier about keeping this plan a little simpler and more.

P

User friendly, I have it on my ipad in front of me and oh, it is hard to no. No, you can't.

P

And we are also posting it we're making a few last.

P

Minute corrections to it, but we will be posting it on our department web page.

P

So again, chapter six follows the quarter and sub area analysis that was reviewed.

P

Over the past several months, um this sub area analysis chapter five laid out the short-term.

P

And targeted solutions, as you'll recall, to the congestion issues in specific areas, many.

P

Of which were breakout projects from what you'll be seeing today, as you'll recall,.

P

This was the result of our consultant study in 2020.. However, this chapter, as we alluded.

P

To a number of times, while we were discussing chapter, five presents the long-term or ultimate.

P

Solutions to problems and challenges with the road network, and it includes all areas of the.

P

County, so the sub-area analysis there were six areas chosen. This is for the entire county.

P

An input for this chapter included over the last. We started this in 2020 staff of dpw as.

P

Well, as land and resource management's bureau of development review, as well as we have met twice.

P

With all the municipality staffs to make sure they're on board and it's in line with their plans.

P

So I'm going to do a quick page by page review of what we sent you on page. One you'll see.

P

It has the it has the map on this side and then a description of um maryland state highway projects.

P

These are from m.sha. This is, these are all reflecting. The highway needs inventory and.

P

Just as a reminder, I know, over the years we've talked about the different state and regional.

P

And local plans, so the highway needs inventory. It was last updated in 2020. It is done for every.

P

County in the state of maryland, it's simply an acknowledgment of need, not a construction program.

P

But a compilation of state highway deficiencies. So it's the first step, the very broad first step.

P

Then we move on to the plan major streets again a lot of acronyms going to be happening here.

P

um The plan major streets are necessary. These are county and municipal roads necessary to promote.

P

The efficient flow of traffic and overall connectivity in a specific area- these are.

P

County municipal and developer funded and then we have the plan, neighborhood connections very.

P

Similar to the plan major streets, however, they are for a slightly more targeted area.

P

um As I said, you have a county-wide map which again this gets much easier to see when you get.

P

This 11, by 17 of all three types of roads, very general we've had the comment that this is very.

P

Hard to make sense of it's not intended to be too specific, we can work possibly on making it.

P

Easier to read, however, it's really just supposed to show you what's happening in each of the areas.

P

um And then also on this page one, we talk about cost estimates and the costas estimates from the.

P

State are those that are included in the hni. These have not been updated in a number of.

P

Years and we are going to be talking to the state about seeing if we can get um better estimates.

P

They have actually done some better estimates for the ongoing regional plan and what I've.

P

Noticed for the five projects that are going to be in the regional plan is they're much higher.

P

So what you're, seeing for these state projects it's low? They just haven't been updated. So as.

P

We move through this. We will try to get updated, at least for some of them and then for the plan.

P

Major streets and plan neighborhood connections, this these costs were based on a formula given to.

P

Us by dpw our own dpw, based on current costs and the size of the road. So it was simply a.

P

Formula and we chose to present it with dollar signs because, because of the general way that we.

P

Did it we're not comfortable really presenting the actual number? This shows you and, and it's.

P

Laid out what the dollar signs mean, this gives you really a way to compare the different roads and to.

P

Just see if they're a very high cost item, that's really the purpose of, even including that in there.

P

So again, that's page one: you can't read it there, but.

P

um It is quite legible when you get it in printed copy.

P

So, on page two is all of these state highway projects from the hni. As I said what you.

P

Have is the estimated cost provided by sha the plan source? All of the plant source is the hni.

P

Any other studies or plans that might be relevant, we've included in there, whether or not they're.

P

In the county's priority letter, whether or not there was, for instance, for maryland, 32.

P

um A planning and environmental linkages study, so that's just additional information.

P

For you, if it's currently in the ctp priority letter, it's important to know.

P

um Any changes in the status since the last plan, which would mean the master plan as well.

P

As any other notes regarding feasibility or any other ongoing things happening with it,.

P

So page three has two um maryland state highway projects that are being removed from the plan.

P

And including the reasons for their removal, and then it also has the 15 plan major streets that.

P

Are being recommended in this plan, including, as I said, the general cost estimate represented by.

P

Dollar signs the plan source in a lot of cases. It is a municipal plan and again we met with.

P

The municipalities to make sure we're still on board, with what they're doing and planning.

P

um The length of the road in linear feet and the status since the last plan amendment again.

P

um The status and the feasibility are just that's informational. We will be adding to.

P

Those as we move through this in the next several months, if there's any changes to that um and then.

P

There are three plan major streets that were removed from the plan, including the reason.

P

Pages three and four are the 28 plan. Major I'm sorry.

P

Yes, sorry um pages three and four are the 28 plan. Neighborhood connections included in this plan.

P

Again, that's slightly smaller for a more targeted area than the plan major streets, and that is the.

P

Same information, we tried to make the tables as consistent as possible for comparison purposes.

P

um Again, the cost, the plan source, the fee status and other feasibility issues.

P

um So there are 28 remaining in the plan from our other land use plans and then what you see on page.

P

Four are 27 plan, neighborhood connections that were removed from the plan, including the reasons.

P

For their removal and the reasons for removal were varied, um they came from our discussions.

P

With other county staff, dpw and development review, as well as the town staff and most.

P

For feasibility issues, some of them had been on for years and years and as we went over them, we.

P

Were told, especially by dpws that it just wasn't feasible anymore, some in some cases, things have.

P

Been built right over them and based on that there just wasn't enough of a need to counter that. So.

P

um And in some cases they were completed. That was the good news um and in some cases they.

P

Were removed from municipal plans, so we um respected that and took them off of our plane.

P

So pages 5 through 18 you'll, you will see individual maps and descriptions of.

P

All remaining plan major streets and plan, neighborhood connections there by category.

P

In alphabetical order, three per page, except for the one last page, has to have four on it.

P

um What you'll see is a detailed map, the functional classification of the roadway.

P

The length of the road, the right-of-way status we had abigail rogers on our staff, do extensive.

P

Deed research research really appreciate that it was a lot of work to find out what right-of-way.

P

Had been noted on deeds what's been secured, which really hadn't linda correct me if I'm wrong that.

P

Hadn't been done for the master plan, it just was his job to do so. She spent a lot of time doing.

P

That and we're comfortable now that we have a status of the right-of-way as well as our interns.

D

A ton of time on that as well scanning in and pulling yes.

P

That's great and then a short description on the purpose of and the need for the road.

P

um So this is just an example of bennett, surf drive extended and what you'll see for all of.

P

Them and then I also included in this present- oh um this. This is how each this is for people that.

P

Are watching since they don't have it in front of them? Yet it's about to be posted on the website.

P

um Again, alphabetical, it's not by area! So, if you're interested in a certain geographic.

P

Area you'd have to go looking for the actual road, but that's how we arrange these and again.

P

All that information is provided there, they're numbered the numbers coincide with the numbers.

P

In the charts, so it is easier to find those and um again this is just another example of a page.

P

So what we haven't done yet and what we'll be working with you regarding, after we go over.

P

All these are the prioritization of projects. um We haven't worked this completely out. It's.

P

Something we'd want to have a discussion with you all about. um We would want to use these.

P

This is what we've come up with so far as 10 important um items for consideration, I'll.

P

Just briefly list them include inclusion in a designated growth area or priority funding.

P

Area as planners, that's always one of our most important things to consider safety. Oftentimes.

P

A huge factor- functional classification priorities- should be given to collectors over local roads.

P

Etc, the higher the functional classification, probably the more important the road.

P

um Existing financial support and right-of-way.

P

um This one we we haven't even really discussed. We may weigh this higher as far as if it's already.

P

In the county, cip, which you discussed several hours ago, it it may need a higher weight that.

P

Might be a more important factor than some of all these others cost benefit if it's a very low cost.

P

Or sometimes, there's just that little bit of a final connection and you've seen that when.

P

You've looked at development review projects that would provide a benefit for the larger area that.

P

Could be important connectivity again that was discussed earlier today, how important some of.

P

These connections are to the overall functioning of an area, particularly the freedom area, improving.

P

The operation of existing infrastructure, that means providing the alternative, dickinson.

P

Ridenour being examples of that, taking it off a major road and providing an alternative anything.

P

That is supportive of economic prosperity in the county is very important. The immediacy of the need.

P

Recent developments in that area, necessitating it and then environmental considerations that it has.

P

Minimal impacts effects on on environmental and cultural resources, so this part of it.

P

Is still a work in progress that we hope to discuss with you more, but one of the important.

P

One of the reasons we wanted to do this plan was to provide a prioritization of projects rather.

P

Than just this list, that's always existed, so we see this as an important part of this.

P

um Okay, that was a quick overview of what we'll be doing over the next several months. With this.

P

Chapter, do you have any questions so this this is important um for a lot of reasons. I know when.

A

We did the last master plan, um one of the we had some folks coming forward, criticizing saying we.

A

Hadn't spent enough time looking at traffic issues with that master plan, so it seems to.

A

Me that, by having this process being done now in front of the next master plan, this is good data.

A

That um I mean there's a little bit of a chicken egg thing, because we want to make sure this is.

A

Consistent with a master plan, at the same time, it's data that's going to be considered as we.

A

Develop the next master plan, but nevertheless the data is really important and it's timely.

A

um So it just seems- and it's nice to have this discussion outside of having all the weight of the.

A

Master plan hanging over us, so I just think this is really important for all the obvious reasons.

A

But also plugging it into this larger process and what it can mean and how it can help inform that.

A

And I think that'll that'll improve the data we have to make decisions around developing.

A

We're updating the master line, how are you freeze it any questions or comments.

G

I would say that again, the prioritization and how we prioritize these projects.

G

There's going to be a subjective component to that, but, insofar as as you could help us understand,.

G

um What what of the which of those components is.

G

um How we should weight those that I would find that helpful? You know cost benefit. You know.

G

Traffic alleviation safety- all those things are important. So how do we weight that in in.

G

Or how do you weight it? Oh yeah right, I I don't know um but I'd love to see or.

G

Understand what your thoughts are around that too, and we've been talking about it, the one.

P

Thing we do think, as I said, that should be more heavily weighted, is if it's currently.

P

In the cip, it's our the commissioners. The board of county commissioners has already.

P

Prioritized it it's done yeah. Well, I mean it's at least prioritized. So um that is important.

P

You know that is something that we'll have to work through. We may not be prioritizing them.

P

Numerically, like this is the most important road- and this is the least important road we'd, probably.

P

Be going for a high, medium and low okay kind of categorization yeah, because sometimes two things.

D

Come up um a development may come up, but we were unaware. I've been and it might be, a priority. May.

D

Not be our number one, so we don't want to get stuck well, that's not our number one priority, so we shouldn't be moving forward with that, but I have every road we have is listed for a reason.

D

Because they're important connections, so we don't want to try to rank one over another. But just say.

D

In priority scale, why is this important? Because of these reasons, type of thing, that's the same thing.

D

We do with the funding too, is, what's so hard to put a dollar amount on anything these days, prices.

D

Are uh rapidly escalating, so that's why we just did the dollar sign symbol, to show that this is.

D

Way more expensive than some of the other ones and not put dollar amounts to things. I think the.

A

Having some flexibility around it too, because you can be overtaken by events, you can think this one.

A

Is going to be very important and all of a sudden, like you, said one of these projects, that's been.

A

um You know is 10 years old, all of a sudden jumps out and starts taking off that might affect how.

A

We want to prioritize as well so correct. um You know it's just that's part of living life. I guess.

A

Well good! Well, we appreciate this is a lot of work and we know it's a lot of work and uh a great job.

A

So we appreciate the overview. We appreciate how you sort of give it to us in bite-sized pieces too.

P

That's really really helpful getting it for the next several months, a lot of bite-sized pieces, a.

A

Lot of bite-sized pieces um good anything else on this topic, that is it for cleaning tapas exactly.

A

um Good all right! Well then, I think that concludes item 13, which leads us to item 14.

A

I'd like the record to reflect, I didn't need any prodding to ask for a general comment on this.

A

But there's no members of the public presence so.

A

At that, and then with that, I would be happy to entertain a motion for a journal. Mr chair, just.

H

Real quick, I wanted to follow up with your um question about the de novo review yeah. So.

H

I've examined the case law and, unfortunately, the court of appeals, or, I guess the supreme court now.

H

um Has said that, in a proceeding before the board of appeals, an entirely new hearing in which all.

H

Specified issues on uh appeal should be heard anew, as if no decision had been previously rendered.

H

The burden still remains with the applicant to establish the facts necessary. So while it's a.

H

Whole new record, so they don't get the transcript um or anything from officially from you guys.

H

um There's nothing that prevents you technically from you know, providing testimony.

H

um You feel fit it's just uh that just creates some more wrinkles.

H

In the uh in the process, so I just wanted to um follow up with that.

A

Well, thank you appreciate it. um Anything else needs to be before us before we adjourn.

A

All right so I'd be happy to entertain a motion for a journal.

M

I move, we adjourn. Is there a second? Second all in favor all right.

A

Thank you, adams. Thank you. Thank you all very much.