Carroll County, MD Carroll County Planning and Zoning Commission, 15 Dec 2020

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From YouTube: Planning and Zoning Commission December 15, 2020

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https://www.carrollcountymd.gov/government/commissioners/board-of-carroll-county-commissioners-weekly-agenda/

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20 meeting of the carroll county planning and zoning commission um can we establish a quorum.

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Please good morning, ms cheatwood here mr hoff, here mr canale here mr wathers here mr soyston.

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Miss kirkner here, mr gosnell, commissioner roth's team, yeah secretary eisenberg.

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Here, mr chair, please let the record reflect that seven members are present and we do have a quorum.

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Thank you so now, let's stand for the pledge of allegiance.

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I pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to.

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The republic for which it stands, one nation, under god, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

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Okay, moving on to review and approval of the agenda are there any changes to the agenda.

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No, there are no changes to the agenda. I'll make a motion for approval is the jab second, it.

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Okay, all in favor, aye, hi, hi, okay, so moving on to the review and approval.

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Of the minutes from the november 17th and december 2nd meeting any changes.

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This is jeff I'll move approval of the minutes as presented.

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Second, all in favor, aye, aye.

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Okay, we'll move along to the commission member reports and I do not have anything to report at.

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This time, commissioner, would you like to make say something just a couple really quick things.

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One is um again, I applaud you, the entire team for the preparation in.

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The rezoning requests it allows us the commissioners to perform our work sessions.

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Very efficiently, as we're working through them, we have another work session this afternoon.

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With the intent of making preliminary decisions during the work sessions.

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And then, during open session, we will make our final determination on uh the rezoning requests.

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um You know they say the prior preparation prevents poor performance. I really believe.

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That, in this case, the community uh outreach um the community's involvement engagement and your.

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uh Involvement in engagement um with very candid, clear thoughts help us a lot.

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I'd be remiss if I don't continue to say uh safety wear the mask, keep distance. We've got to get.

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Through this- and we will get through this during this holiday season- wishing everybody uh that is.

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Celebrating a very happy hanukkah and a very merry christmas, as we move into uh christmas next week,.

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And last but not least, continue to shop, local uh use, the main streets use.

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Opportunities to get those gifts that um can only be bought here in carroll, county.

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And give to loved ones, um not to say I want to put amazon or walmart out of.

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Business but I want to keep our community in business, so it's uh the main streets, not the.

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Wall streets that I'm thinking of and with that I'll pass it on to you. Cynthia thanks.

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Thank you. Would anybody else on the commission have anything to say.

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Okay, we'll move along to our administrative report. Item number seven secretary, eisenberg.

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Morning, everyone thank you for being here at our very last planning commission meeting of 2021.

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Sorry, we couldn't celebrate all together on the holiday season, but I want to thank you all again.

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For your service for this past year, it's been trying. We all know, thank you for being adaptable.

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Especially with us and our new technology, and how we do these meetings moving forward.

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I'm not sure what 2021 will have in store um when we'll be returning back to in-person meetings.

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um If we'll do a hybrid approach with some people in person, some people on virtual so.

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We'll just have to play it by ear and see what happens as we move forward, but again, thank you.

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All so much, we really do appreciate everything that you do for carroll county and for planning.

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As well in carroll county, um I have nothing else, because I'm going to give you an update um as an.

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Agenda item for the comprehensive rezoning and that commissioner ronstein just spoke about so.

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With that, um if lauren the price is available, if there's any extensions for this month, lara.

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Good morning, yes, uh we have one extension that was granted this month.

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It was for the project 44 liberty, road, the county file number is s07.

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So this is the fourth extension of this site plan, which was approved for a planned business center.

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That's it, that's the only one. Thank you all right, thank you so much and then hannah weber.

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Has some bza cases to present you this morning hannah good morning? Everybody there is one bza.

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Case for their january 6th hearing this is case 6284 a conditional use for country inn.

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This is located on diall road in pawnee town in the ag zone and our finding was to be consistent.

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All right, there are no questions from hannah. That's all I have for my administrative report.

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This morning, hey cynthia, I I apologize real quick uh since hannah brought up the bza a.

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Public announcement went out from uh the county looking for bza.

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Members, we are woefully short, and I just want to throw that out here.

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Those that are you know maybe listening to us that may be wanting to get themselves engaged.

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We are looking for the appropriate and qualified members to join on to the pga for 2021.

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Thank you, commissioner. um We'll move on to item number eight, which is our comprehensive.

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Rezoning by request for the commercial industrial, employment campus and the update.

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So yeah so good morning, as commissioner allstein said, the board of county commissioners.

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Has been meeting in work sessions to discuss what you forwarded as far as your recommendations for.

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The 28 properties for the buy request, comprehensive rezoning for commercial.

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Industrial and employment campus last week was our first of the work sessions post public hearing.

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That was held on december 3rd, so we reviewed 11 properties with the board of county commissioners.

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The first nine were all favorable recommendations from the planning commission and from staff. So how.

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We've tried to order. These are based on frankly, the ones that seem to be easier to move forward.

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Easier decisions perhaps to make for the board of county commissioners, so the properties discussed.

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Were properties 3, 4, 5, 10, 11, 15, 17, 31 and 32., um so I'll quickly go over just so you know. I know the.

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Numbers don't mean much um to the public, but the number three property was the wetiquen property.

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That is in the woodvine area along 97, and that was one going from conservation to.

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Industrial one, um I'm sorry industrial, two that is located right off of 97 if.

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You recall that property, it's for that greater um industrial area, and it was the last piece.

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Of non-industrial land in this greater industrial park area, so the board depending commissioners.

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Found the same recommendation as planning commission and staff as a favorable for.

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I2, the next property they reviewed was 004, and that was the stockdale property. This.

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Is a property along maryland 26 just across from liberty exchange and the request was c2.

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And again, board of county commissioners have a provisional vote of favorable.

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The next property was 005 and this is the stone sufferer property in the westminster area and.

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The request was to go to c2 and again board of county commissioners also have a favorable.

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Provisional vote for that the next property was 001-0 and I'm going to put 10 and 11 together.

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So these are the properties, the southern maryland oil and the tebus real estate um along 140 and the.

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Things burgary, so it's the jiffy mart property and then the billboard property. The request was to go.

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To c2 and again, the board of county commissioners had a provisional vote of favorable property, 001 5.

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That is the graph property, that's located in the line, borough area, and this request was to go to.

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C2, so it's off a line: borough road in the world village of lionboro. It's already developed.

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The daycare- and so this was for the auto service center, that is in that built structure.

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And the board of county commissioners um also had a favorable provisional vote.

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0017 was the next property that they discussed, and this was the 844 professional center condominium.

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On old westminster um internet on westminster, old washington, road right um in the westminster.

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General area it's already developed as a professional business center. um It did.

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Not make it into our last resort, because it's under the westminster environments, plans and.

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We have a lot of work to do in that westminster environs area, but the request was to go to c2 and.

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Again, the board of county commissioners gave that a favorable recommendation up a provisional.

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Vote I should say then the last two properties are pretty much side by side: um 003, 1 and 0.32.

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These are properties located along the south side of liberty. Road um three of them are the semino.

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Properties and then the other one is buckman and associates, and the requests were for.

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C2 and these were consistent with the freedom plan and again the board county commissioners.

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Gave them a favorable provisional vote, the two unfavorable provisional votes, which follow along.

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With planning, commission and staff recommendation was 0022 and that property is the book for llc.

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That property is located along 97 on the east side. It is north of the westminster and environs area.

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And the request was for c2 on that property. It is currently a church on that property, which is a.

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Permitted use in the ag zone, so the board of county commissioners also gave them an unfavorable.

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Provisional vote to move to c2 and then the last property that they discussed was 0027. This is.

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Currently, the north carol community school and the request was for commercial 1c1 and again the.

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Board of county commissioners, as well as planning commission, had an unfavorable um for that property.

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As well so those were the first 11 properties that they discussed and again they fell.

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In line with what staff and planning commission recommended um today, as commissioner al steen.

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Said we are going over nine, more properties with the board of county commissioners.

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um And again the way that I try to order them to keep them um in orderly fashion. I guess so.

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To speak is to put them in hierarchy of ones. That seemed a little more challenging and we'll.

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Progress up to some of the more challenging uh properties that may have more discussion.

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Further meetings, so we will be talking um today about um property 24, which is the hiker property.

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Which is at the intersection of 32 and 97, and that request was for c2 as well as the legacy school.

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Which is in the eldersburg area, that is also with the delaney property. Those were for the employment.

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Campus district request to the delaney properties owned by the board of county commissioners.

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Then we'll be talking um about just bored here on my my list: sorry, mad properties, which is 0014.

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This property is located on the south side of 26 just outside the windfield rural village. This was.

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One that the planning commission ended up, giving a favorable recommendation for the c2 request.

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Another property that we'll be discussing today is 97 crime, pass llc or maryland.

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Mallet, which is oo20 and that's a long 97 and the request is for c2.

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um And then we'll be talking about properties, seven and 18.. So seven was playtime corporation.

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The request is ag to c1, and this is on old westminster pike um in between westminster.

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And the finksburg area, and that request is for c1 as well as 0018, which is melvin laney property.

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And that request is a split zone. Parcel of adding conservation and request is to.

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For the entire property to be an eye to a heavy industrial.

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um We'll also be discussing 0.019, which is gems investment llc. This is one that.

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Planning commission gave a favorable recommendation for the reduced boundary.

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It's located in the finksburg area um on old westminster pike and maryland 140. It's kind.

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Of at that little point where the two roads converge near the reservoir and the bridge.

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um And then our final property of discussion today with the board of county commissioners is 0028 or.

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The baity property and their request is to go from i1 to c2 and both planning, commission and staff.

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Gave out a favorable recommendation and there was also a revised boundary. If you recall the initial.

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Boundary that was in the freedom carol, the freedom comprehensive plan was 40 acres.

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That's been reduced to a 30 acre and slightly adjusted from what the land use designation was.

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In the freedom plan, so then our last meeting with the board of county commissioners for the review.

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Of these properties is next tuesday december 22nd and it's a work session from 1 to 3 pm. So.

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We're hoping at least to get through all of the properties by the 22nd and then work with the.

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Commissioners to schedule first future dates after the first of the year. Are there any questions.

C

I know I just went through a lot of information, yeah linda a quick question for you on the website.

H

I was just looking myself trying to find it. Do you have like some kind of like chart.

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That kind of shows like what the staff recommendation was, what our recommendation was.

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And then what the the preliminary you know kind of a chart that shows the process through each of the.

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Properties but kind of convenient in all one chart. Can you tell us where that is? It is.

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There yeah absolutely so it's under carol rezoning.org um and it's called.

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I'm looking at it right now by request commissioner provisional vote and then it has the.

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Date, posted december 9th 2020 and I'll update that today, after the commissioner's discussion and then.

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The properties that they will be revealing today as well so you'll see you will see.

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And actually chris can I share my screen or control room? Can you um can I share my screen.

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And I'll show you all how to navigate to that. I did just find it. Okay, cool but yeah maybe show the others, because that's.

H

A

Linda you're on mute.

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Okay, can you hear me now, I'm sorry on technology, um so you click on that link. It takes you.

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To this table, um and just as mr hoff suggested, it has the request what their current zoning is.

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The requested zoning the planner assigned and then follows it through to the board of county.

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Commissioners, as they make their final votes, we'll be adding that on to the end.

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So these are the first 11 properties I just reviewed with. You are posted on our website.

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And, as I said, I will add the next nine properties that will be discussed today.

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To this table as well, so the public can see the progression of where each property stands.

H

That's fantastic, that's very helpful to have, I think, it's nice, because then people can see uh the.

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Process and really, frankly, all the deliberation that has taken place in this process because it's.

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Not like these properties get looked at once uh they're, getting looked at multiple multiple times.

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Hey linda, uh one idea is: maybe um talk to chris and get a hot link from our front page. You know.

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To this, because yeah again, I agree this is uh you know this shares a lot of information. That's.

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Been done over a relatively long period of time, so we could probably just do a hot link for.

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Easy access, I will work with chris after we are done here today to get that hotline established.

D

Hey linda, this is jeff. Is there any way to give more of a description other than the request.

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Number, um you know we think of it as like the baby property, but I don't looking at the numbers.

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I don't know which one is the big property. I don't think from this card unless I'm not not seeing it.

C

No, that's what I can go ahead and um add in the name of the property.

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I will do that. Yes and it's not on this chart.

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No, I know I'll add it to the chart.

H

No, that would be handy, jeff, great suggestion yeah. Thank you for that, pointing that out.

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So the next week you will present the final properties and then is.

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The next step is there a public hearing or, what's after the final presentation,.

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So um nothing the public hearing and the public record closed on december. Third, there.

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um Unless the commissioners choose to go out to another public hearing which could happen.

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I'll leave that up to them, maybe on some of some properties they may choose to do that.

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But um as of now, we have fulfilled all the legal obligations, so it's really up to the commissioners.

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Now to have discussions and make a decision on how they'd like to move forward with the remaining.

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Decision yeah now, thanks and at this point during the work session, we we had this conversation.

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And at this point there is no intent to do an additional public hearing.

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The intent is to complete the three workshops uh deliberate, the best we can during them and.

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Then open session have the same opportunity and make a final determination. I think we've gathered.

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All the information or, I believe, a lot of information most of the information.

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Needed to make the appropriate decisions.

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Hey anymore, any more questions about this.

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Or any more linda are you? Are you finished? That's it. Thank you.

A

Okay, well on the agenda is a recess. Are we still taking the recess at.

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This time to allow people to call in is that what we want to do, or.

H

It might be a good idea yeah. I think that would be a good time to take a quick break and then we'll.

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Move into the development review- and we have three items for you this morning for development pieces.

A

Okay, well then, let's take, um I have 9 24. So let's.

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Let's go till uh recess until 9 30 and um that way we can get going and hopefully.

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Get everything taken care of so I'm going to adjourn for about six minutes.

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To order our meeting and we'll continue on.

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With item number 10, the preliminary subdivision plan for eight p190089, the ridgid falling green.

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Okay, that passes it off to me good morning. Everybody I'm.

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Kirsten with carroll county's development review, um I will be walking you through.

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This project, the rid of fallen, green I've got my share screen up now, so let's get that set up.

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Okay, so it looks like you should be able to see my powerpoint correct. Okay, all right. So this is the.

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Ridge at falling green file number p190089: um this is a conservation zone. Cluster subdivision.

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This project was before the planning commission already in june of this past year, for a.

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Overview for concept review, no actions required at concept review, it's just a review, but now we.

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Are at the preliminary approval stage of the project and the project is seeking preliminary.

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Approval from the planning commission today um for chapter 155 and chapter 156 of the county.

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Code, I'd also like to note too that, unless the planning commission today during this meeting.

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Specifically, requests to see it again, it will be forwarded to the chair for their approval. We have.

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With us today, I saw ron thompson with vanmar. If you would introduce yourself, and I believe we have.

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Lou toff here as well, who is the project owner developer good morning, all ron thompson, vanmar.

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We're the project engineers.

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Okay- and I do see that lou is with us- oh um ron, you might need to mute yourself until you are.

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Ready to speak, we have a little bit of feedback. um Okay, and I do see that lou is here with us as well.

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um If we have questions later on, he looks like he would be available. This is not speaking right now,.

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In any case, again we're here for preliminary approval of this project, it's a constant.

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Conservation zone cluster subdivision on the proposing seven lots here at the end of falling.

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Greenway, this is in the southern portion of the county off of route. 27, we'll bring you back there.

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Again, 27 is here to the west. um The site is here highlighted in orange. um I also want to take the.

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Time now to note that the site is highlighted in orange, that's the subdivision on the eastern side.

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Of the subdivision, it's parcel, I believe, parcel one of this property. It's a it's a two parcel.

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Property parcel one's under development for a off conveyance for two off conveyance loss. That is not.

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Part of the subdivision process. We are talking specifically about the seven lot subdivision.

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Here um I just wanted to mention that, because it is shown and pretty clearly on the plans we'll be.

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Seeing here in a second so again, the plant is to extend the publicly maintained, falling green way.

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Which currently ends in a temporary cul-de-sac and to bring it 760 feet here to the east.

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Ending in a new permanent cul-de-sac that has not changed since the original plan I mentioned.

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That we've seen this before and the uh overview in june, um so that plan itself has not changed. What.

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Has changed? Is the cul-de-sac has gotten wider they're showing a hundred foot cul-de-sac here.

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That is in response to some discussion that was held at previous meetings.

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The community has interest in contacting the board of education to see if this new cul-de-sac would.

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Be possible to serve as a school bus stop. The developer has gotten information from the school.

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Board and has accommodated the physical needs. It's our understanding that that follow-up would be on.

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Part of the community, possibly the developer. In any case, it's not part of the subdivision.

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Process so I did want to bring that up so again we're showing the cul-de-sac here, a new publicly.

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Maintained road that will be deeded to the county. Seven new lots off that publicly maintained road.

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Each lot will have their own driveway. These are all single family homes. The lots range in size.

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From 1.4 acres to 1.9 acres, that is what is allowed per the conservation cluster subdivision.

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Section of the code you are able to reduce the size of your lots by putting the difference into.

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An open space easement, so that is what we see here. We see lot sizes that are smaller than.

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Typically allowed in the conservation zoning district, with the difference in size allocated.

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As an open space easement- and you can see that open space easement down in this region here.

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This dashed line represents the border between the resulting lands and the open space easement.

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This again will just be an open space easement. This is not being deeded directly.

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To the county in ownership, it is an easement, in addition to being in the open space, easement.

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You'll notice that there's some forest here as well streams and wetland a pond.

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These regions, almost the entirety of the open space easement, will be captured in.

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Environmental easements, the forest, is all going into forest conservation.

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In fact, there's forest conservation covering all of the woods in the open space easement, and I also.

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Wanted to note as well that there are some woods that come out of that easement. However, those are.

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Not going to be in a easement, that is to say lot, 7 will not be encumbered by easement slot 1 and 2.

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Will not be encumbered by easements despite having woods on them all of the forest conservation.

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Easement is contained currently to the open space easement itself. In addition to that, of course,.

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We'll also have water resource management ease-ins over the stream buffer. The pond the wetlands.

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As you can see here, a little bit more detail on this one um as you'll also see on these plans.

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As I mentioned before, the parcel parcel two actually not parcel one parcel two on the east.

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Is under development for a two lot off conveyance you'll see that there's also an easement shown.

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Allowing access to those two lots from the end of fallen green again, that is only under.

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Development as an off conveyance for two lots: it's not a subdivision. It's separate.

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From this process, but there is an easement shown for their access when that access is.

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Established so at this point this is seeking preliminary approval.

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All county agencies at this time have granted approval to that stage.

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As we mentioned before, we're getting forest conservation, easements and water resource.

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Management easements addresses their codes, uh the extension of falling greenway and the existing.

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Access to a state highway addresses the state highway county, roads, engineering requirements.

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Soil conservation and grading has been addressed. Zoning has been met, everything.

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Here regarding the cluster subdivision process has been met to the requirements.

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Fire protections addressed planning has issued memos stating that it does comply with our current.

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Master plans, health department- this is all this whole region. This property and neighboring.

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Properties, it's all private water sewer, there's no public water sewer in this location.

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Neighbors and the site itself will all be on private wells and septic and regarding chapter 156,.

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Everything is up to par fire police ems schools in this area. This is mount airy. There's there's.

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No issues with schools at this time or foreseeable in the future. As far as chapter 156 addresses it.

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Rhodes is is also adequate and again there's no public water and sewer in this region.

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So as far as one chapter 156 goes, this is all adequate and again chapter 155. At this time, county.

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Agencies have approved the plan as it stands, so at this time they are seeking preliminary approval.

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For chapter 155 and chapter 156, and unless the commission wanted to see it again, it would be.

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Forwarded to the chair for their final approval, if there were any questions for me or about the.

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Plan for uh the developer or the engineer I'd be happy to take those now. I just want to ask.

H

A few questions just to follow up on some of my comments from when it came to us before.

H

Just for clarification, the open space, the these lot owners will there be some kind of easement for.

H

Them to access that open space for recreation and enjoyment, or how is that going to work.

I

So the way that the code reads for cluster subdivisions and the cluster excuse me and.

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The conservation zoning district is different than what is applicable for a residential.

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Cluster subdivision, that is to say, the residential cluster subdivisions, do have.

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A provision that requires it to be the open space to be allocated and available for public enjoyment.

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The conservation does not have that same clause. The conservation clusters are.

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They allow properties like this to allocate regions that are otherwise un available for.

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Use essentially to be preserved- and in this case here this is steep slopes in this area. Steep.

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Slopes wooded streams everything's under going to be under environmental easements. There will be.

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No, there will essentially be no room and no availability for quote-unquote public enjoyment.

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Of the site, but again cluster subdivisions and the conservation zoning district do not have.

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That same requirement, so it's not a requirement so in other words, it's kind of it's a little strange.

H

Awkward thing of the code, so there is no requirement for that open space to be publicly.

H

Available so it's kind of a a weird way to get there, but it is what it is. What you're telling me.

I

Right the code for residential cluster subdivisions certainly does have that provision.

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um That does require it to be available uh when you're you're meeting those certain requirements.

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But that's not true, also for conservations in the district. Well, regardless. I still think the cluster.

H

Is a superior approach here so, but that is a little bit of an awkward difference between the.

H

Code and something you might want to keep in mind as we work through the residential code, because.

H

I think it's kind of awkward that we're you know we're claiming there's open space but in reality.

H

The open space is unusable, uh for you know the residents of the subdivision, which I think is.

H

A little awkward um I mean it's per the code. I get it it's fine in this particular case, but I.

H

Think it's something that we, when we're working on the residential text going forward is something I.

H

Think we should take a look at. I think it's a little odd, so I just make note of that. Linda.

H

That when we get there, that's something, I think is it's just bizarre. Why are we going.

H

To call something open space, it's not useful to anybody, but who owns the property? Do you.

H

Understand what I'm saying linda? Is she there? Yes, I'm here? Yes, I do understand what you're saying.

H

Yeah, so if we could maybe look at that down the road, I'm not suggesting we do anything here,.

H

But I'm saying conservation district I mean we can also look at that for the residential.

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Portion this is conservation zone, so we can look both and that would be something to as we bring.

C

Those zoning changes to you can be discussed too at that time. Yeah, I'm just saying I just wanted.

H

To say that um and then everything got worked out with the way the temporary call sack has.

H

Been removed, it was having a big impact on lot 14 and we had some discussions about that last time.

H

All that got worked out between the developer and the property owner, because, basically with.

H

That temporary cul-de-sac being removed that land is now going back a lot 14.. Is that not.

H

Correct correct: that is the way that it's built in when the temporary cul-de-sac is established.

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Back when the original falling green subdivision occurred, provisions were put in place regarding.

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When this returns back to when it's removed, it's temporary, it's built in that way, so.

H

On there correct that is that's the whole point of the temporary cul-de-sac. It's not going to.

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Be the same here, this is, as you can see, the property lines end here. This is a permanent.

I

Cul-De-Sac, they're building it that way from the get-go. This was a temporary cul-de-sac. You.

I

Can see the property lines for a lot? I believe 14 is what you said extend into where the cul-de-sac.

I

Used to be so that it was put into place by d that this was going to be reverted back to them.

H

And- and I know it's not under our curve but the two off conveyances, I'm assuming.

H

um Are both going to be over six acres? Is that correct from your understanding.

I

um Let me get, I don't know for sure up top of my head. I do have the plans here. However,.

I

um Now again conservation zoning district requires three acres.

I

Not six acres, because the all conveyances can be any size. It doesn't matter if they're in the.

H

Conservation correct, however, the zoning code is still applicable. The minimum is three acres and.

I

They do meet that minimum one is 3.005, the other is 3.029, oh, so those all conveyances.

H

Are not going to be over six inches? Okay, not not currently shown on the plans, but they.

I

Do meet again the zoning requirements? Okay, I was just curious. Okay, thank you.

I

Absolutely so I have a question. um The open space easement is located within the resulting lands.

A

What are the resulting lands are those basically undevelopable now well, the resulting lands is.

I

Essentially, the property that exists right now, if you want to think about it, this is the resulting.

I

Lands just with a different without that name yet right. So this is the resulting lands. They're.

I

Taking seven lots of subdivision up here and what they're going to have left over will be what is.

I

Here currently just minus this section and those seven lots, that is to say yes, they would have the.

I

Ability to construct a dwelling on that site um that is not restricted by what they're doing here.

I

This is currently already allowed to construct that building. They could do that today, right.

I

Now, if they wanted to and then proceed with the subdivision, to build the seven new lots.

I

So there's nothing restricting them from coming in and putting a house somewhere over here.

I

Of course, anything that's within an easement would be off limits, but the rest of the site.

I

Here per their own schedule could be eligible for a building permit for a single family dwelling.

A

Okay, thank you.

I

Were there any other questions for me or anybody wanting to.

I

See a certain page or the developer engineer.

I

Okay, well again, this is uh seeking preliminary approval for chapter 155 and 156, and.

I

If the planning commission had interest in seeing it again and the final.

I

Level you'd have to mention that now, otherwise it would be forwarded to the chair.

A

Okay, thank you. So we need two recommendations, one for chapter 155 and 156. So we do not need.

A

To vote on forwarding it to just me for the final to the cherish.

H

I'll make a motion that, pursuant to chapter 155, that we approve the preliminary plan.

H

Subject to the eight conditions that are outlined in the staff report.

D

This jeff I'll, second that and then, as a matter of discussion, do we do. We know if any members of.

D

The public have any comment on this. Thank you, jeff. Sorry, yeah good point. Thank you.

A

Do we have any any callers on the line.

K

You have callers that have not muted.

F

A

Okay control room: if you use the callers please.

A

Thank you. So it looks like we have no public comment, so uh I think we can continue. So we.

A

Have a motion by mr hoff and a second by mr welders to uh recommend approval of.

A

The preliminary plan, pursuant to chapter 155, with the eight conditions in the staff report.

C

I'm just going to go down mr canali. Yes, mr hoff, yes, ms kirkner, yes, mr soyston,.

C

Mr waters, yes, please let the record reflect.

C

That fiber in favor of the motion and the motion carries.

I

Excellent. Thank you very much everybody. We need to do a motion for chapter 156 too, as well. Correct.

H

Therefore, I'll make a motion that, pursuant to chapter 157 of six, that we approve the.

H

Preliminary plan, subject to the four conditions that are outlined in the status report I'll second.

A

Okay, I'm motioned by mr hoffman, the second by mrs kirschner, for approval of preliminary plan.

A

Pursuant to chapter 156, with the four conditions listed in the staff report- okay, mr canale.

L

Yes, mr hall, yes, ms kirkner, yes, mr soyston.

J

Yes, okay, thank you, mr wilders.

C

Yes, okay, all right, please let the record reflect that vibrant favorite and the motion carries.

A

Okay, thank you. We will move on to item 11 special report for oc 20016, the crowd property. Thank.

A

You everybody you good morning, everybody laura matthias with the bureau of development review and.

F

I am control room if you could do the screen share for me. Please thank you now. If I can.

J

F

There we go okay, all right good morning. Thank you. Can everybody see the screen share, we're.

F

Good, yes, thanks cynthia, I see you miss cheatwood. Thank you, excellent, okay. So our first we have.

F

Two special reports for you this morning: um the first one is entitled the crowell property and.

F

It it is something that the planning commission- uh you don't see this very often, so I am going.

F

To walk you through this um step by step, um what we have here is an application was received for an.

F

Off conveyance for this property, and we do have, I will uh let our guests introduce themselves. I did.

F

See mr shaffer is on, I believe mr lemmerman is on. If you all, could please just um and meet yourself.

F

For a minute and introduce yourself as related to this project laura, this is clark schaefer and.

K

Planning commission: this is clark shaffer, the attorney for the crowl family. I have with me.

K

um Renee crowl gallagher, who is uh the owner of this property with her sister.

K

And then also on the line is john lemmerman from rtf our engineer, surveyor and patrick patron.

K

The real estate agent, uh that is been that has the listing of the property. Thank you.

F

Thank you, mr schaefer.

F

Mr lammerman, no.

K

Okay, I think they think I introduced him already. Okay, that's fine! I didn't know if.

F

He wanted to say anything for himself totally good, all right, so the property you see here.

F

um To orient you you'll see carroll county's northern landfill. This is baltimore pike, route, 140.

F

Old westminster park- and this is arnold road- the property is situated right between 140 and old.

F

Westminster park, it is split sound, it is r40 to the west and agricultural to the east. It is just.

F

Over 10 acres in size about 10 and a half acres and as I said, this is kind of a unique scenario. So.

F

An application was submitted for an off conveyance and, as you all know, um off conveyance.

F

Subdivision they both result in division of a property. Simply the processes are different for.

F

These two types of divisions that are created, so the code specifically calls out that when there is.

F

A any division of land involving a new street or involving property identified by the county as.

F

Part of a planned public project that falls under the definition of subdivision, okay, so.

F

Interestingly enough, there is on our carroll county master plan.

F

And an extension of arnold road, which comes straight through continues, arnold road out to 140.

F

Okay, so not only subdivision, but major subdivision. The definition in our code also addresses the.

F

Planned major street and it says um under major subdivision- a division of property.

F

Which creates involves, or is contiguous or in the path of a planned new road street or highway.

F

That is the definition for major subdivision so per the code when development review received.

F

The off conveyance application, we went back to the developer and the attorney and said per.

F

Our code, this would be considered a major subdivision process to create the two lots that.

F

They're looking to create okay, now, additionally, here's where the planning commission comes in.

F

So under subdivision control in our code chapter 155.020 and I'm going to read this entire section.

F

Of the code- because this is why we're here before you today, if an off conveyance or any division, is.

F

Proposed upon land, which involves a planned street or involves a planned public project shown on the.

F

Master plan, the planning commission shall consider the division and may approve the division without.

F

Recording a subdivision plat after a finding by the planning commission that the division.

F

Will not adversely affect the construction of the planned public project or planned street, so this.

F

Is what brings us before you today now, on friday, the 13th of november? We did hold a staff meeting.

F

This included directors and bureau chiefs within the department of land and resource management.

F

Department of planning, department of public works and the county attorney's office to discuss this.

F

Planned major road extension of arnold road which, as I said, is on the master plan. But.

F

All of these heads came together to discuss the direction of this.

F

All the departments and the county attorney's office did agree that this particular extension.

F

Through this, property will not be pursued by the county, so, as such staff will not.

F

Recommend a reservation or dedication in the approval of the division of the property.

F

Okay, the owner's attorney has requested that the plan and commission consider and approve the.

F

Division without the recording of subdivision plot, which equates to processing the off conveyance.

F

By finding that the division will not adversely affect the construction of.

F

The planned public project or clan street okay.

H

Laura before you go on, can I introduce a question because you you referencing this meeting? Yes,.

H

Why was that determination made? Because I I I'm kind of of the philosophy that I don't really? I.

H

Understand why clark and the developer wants to keep business all conveyance uh and I totally.

H

Respect that and tend to agree with that avenue, uh though, if it were me um just looking at it.

H

Brawl without your additional knowledge, I would be thinking. Why would we not allow them to process.

H

It as an off commands, but also still reserve the ability for that road to come through it one day.

H

If, especially, if it's shown on our master plan, I hate getting rid of roads.

H

Wow determination being made at this point in time, so dan, the determination was not.

F

Made to remove it from the master plan so just to clarify okay, it is still on the master plan. We.

F

Cannot do that that would have to go through the appropriate process. What was discussed was um the.

F

Desirability viability and potential of that and there was much discussion about future.

F

In uh improvements to northern landfill and how this extension, where it would come through.

F

If it would come through and every person in that meeting landed on, that is not it's not in the cip.

F

It is not something that is going to be pursued, so while we do still acknowledge.

F

It on the master plan and what staff is looking for is a representation of that um on the plan to.

F

Acknowledge that it is on the master plan, we would not recommend a reservation or a dedication for.

F

That at this time, but if we don't reserve it and it's still on the master plan, how do we go about.

H

Getting it back if we decide we want to pursue it at some point. That's what my issue is.

C

Go ahead, linda yeah, so dan we did work closely. Also the state highway administration.

C

And the city of westminster, so this is on the plan for the westminster environments plan. This.

C

Will be a plan that we will be reviewing again shortly um once we get through the comprehensive.

C

Rezoning issues and speaking with them uh state highway was again. They don't always comment on.

C

These issues putting another access point at that point on maryland. 140 could be problematic.

C

um There could be some sight distance issues again. Some of these plan major streets that we have.

C

Go way back prior to the current configuration of the community and how maryland 140 now functions.

C

So now looking forward into the future and what the demand is for that area.

C

And what maryland 140 is in that particular area, it was decided that this would probably not be.

C

Something wouldn't be recommended moving forward in a future plan, and we're also are reviewing it.

C

With our future transportation master plan that we're currently working on, so there were a lot of.

C

Issues with the necessity of this roadway and actually it's my ability to even be constructed.

C

In that entrance point we've put on 140., okay. Thank you clarifying a little bit more.

H

Two follow-up questions so regarding this: if if we don't do the reservation now, but it's still.

H

In the master plan- and we decide we want to do it later- that's still theoretically possible.

H

Or not if we haven't, if it's noted on their plan, that is part of the master plan. It linda.

H

Is it possible that we could come back later or is it not feasible because it's not reserved.

C

A lot more answer that questions it's on the plan itself so or if you could answer that for dan. So.

F

That is a good question. It's my understanding under the annotated code that there are ways to.

F

Pursue that, if we so chose to pursue that, but it would be far more complicated, I would imagine.

H

In essence, we're killing it now um is my gut um further question further up closer to westminster.

H

Where the new circle is in, everybody knows what I'm talking about there. That is supposed to be.

H

Interconnecting at some point in time is that not correct that is close, so I got that coming.

H

In which is going to provide direct access further up the road through that new circle.

H

That's in that is going to connect directly to 140.. That is definitely happening. Okay. Thank you.

F

Absolutely and very good questions dan. Thank you, mr hoff, um so the off conveyance that.

F

Came in again we're not reviewing the specifics of the divisions of the property simply looking.

F

At what's being proposed in relation to where arnold road, intersects old westminster pike,.

F

So two lots of off conveyance on the western side of the property are proposed and again so.

F

From our master plan, this little blue blip here, that is, that little segment of road extension.

F

um And so in requesting that it be acknowledged on the plan with an alignment.

F

It would simply look something like a line with an annotation to it.

F

F

Oh sorry, last one.

F

So again, I think I think we've covered all the grouds on this. They are um looking for a.

F

Decision today from you on the processing and regardless of that process, we will staff will.

F

Not recommend the reservation or dedication, but we will look for that delineation and annotation. So.

F

The request before you is consideration and approval of the division of the property without.

F

The recording of a subdivision plot by finding that the division will not adversely affect the.

F

Construction of the planned public project or planned street and again, of course, subdivision.

F

Is with the recreation of a plot that is typically the means by which we then record those rhetoric.

F

Reservations or dedication, so this would just put it into a different process. The off conveyance.

F

Process and the final outcome of that will just be a recording of those lots by deed.

H

Clark, I got a question for clark, I'm going to put you on the spot, my friend. What is.

H

Your opinion on the fact that if there's no reservation, though, it's noted on the plan.

H

Does that effectively kill the ability for it to go through later.

H

I know that we're getting into semantics here uh that you know we have to clean up that westminster.

H

Has to clean up the master plan and well might be agreeable to remove it uh anyway, but once we.

H

Take this action is that effectively killing the possibility of that extension ever going forward.

K

The answer is no, uh but we are in a deep uh dive here as far as real property and.

K

uh And subdivision regulations, um if I may and and uh I'll address, I guess that question directly.

K

uh Or indirectly and directly, the fact of the matter is that government is not allowed.

K

To simply draw a line on a map and then when somebody comes in to develop that property.

K

Require that property owner to either deed over.

K

Dedicate or this interesting word reserve, the property now and and however, government has.

K

A lot of power and one of its powers, is to condemn property and buy it for public good.

K

In this case, the line on the map is simply that, as laura pointed out this, this road.

K

Is number one and importantly, apparently it's known to staff where that it's not going to go.

K

That's important because, for obvious reasons.

K

Secondly, it's not in a con in in a cip program. There are no really concrete plans to.

K

In in any foreseeable future, to do this now that doesn't mean- and I know that's.

K

What you're thinking dan and I I get that I think it's you should be thinking well wait a minute. We.

K

We do these plans looking out 15 20 years. Suppose we need that land sometime.

K

Will will approving this development inhibit our ability to get that land in the future.

K

And the answer is really no in this case. Frankly, the alignment goes as you can see. The alignment.

K

Conveniently goes right through the middle of this property along the border line of.

K

The three lots that are going to be proposed to be created now, even if even if this plan had.

K

One of those lots or two of those lots or three of those lots right in the middle of this area,.

K

What that would mean would be that this plan, if it's approved, would likely result.

K

In three single-family dwellings being built in that alignment, uh what that would mean.

K

And really what the uh the analysis is all about here from a public standpoint is.

K

And you use the word inhibit. I think you use that word inhibit.

K

Yeah, it would inhibit it at that point because if you did, if the public did decide to put the.

K

Road through they would have to buy those houses, not unheard of there's plenty of road projects.

K

Across the state, now that's on that's sort of unheard of in carroll county, because we do local.

K

Roads, we don't do state roads, but many roads require the purchase of public property. There.

K

And by the way there is a technique process specified in the land use article. I think it's.

K

6-102, I'm not sure, don't quote me on that. That says, essentially if a government wants to reserve.

K

Create special rules on these roads. They have to have a public hearing, notify the property owner.

K

That their that their land is in the path of a road shown on a master plan, they have.

K

To have a public hearing at which they hear from everybody and after that public hearing the county.

K

Commissioners, this is the legislative act. The candidate county commissioners have to adopt a.

K

Resolution that specifies what their the public's desire is and, in the case of a reservation,.

K

They have to specify the number of years that that reservation uh applies to, and I can tell you.

K

There's case law out there. This is not the first time this has happened. The westminster bypass.

K

Which is now taken off the plan created a lot of these issues.

K

In the past, going through the subdivision process, but um there's case law that says.

K

If government wants to tell a property owner, hey you, you've come in with a development plan.

K

We're we understand you're entitled to that development plan under our zoning rules.

K

But we need you to mark this area 60 feet wide across your property reserved for future bypass.

K

On a on a plat they government can can only do that if they limit the amount of years. It's been.

K

Suggested that it's two or three years, because the courts recognize that, in fact, a reservation.

K

Is really a delayed taking of somebody's property without just compensation.

K

um You know, in other words, the question because well what's what's that mean.

K

Reservation, you want me to reserve yeah, it's just a reservation. Don't worry about it.

K

Well, can I do anything on it? Well, no, it's called it's reserved for a future road.

K

And then to get into the weeds a little further, I probably went too far, but to get in the weeds a.

K

Little further from the, if that were to happen for two years, the way it would work out in real life.

K

Is this, the county would come back later and say we're ready to build the road and the landowner.

K

Would still own the land, okay, but it would have been marked reserved and presumably the landowner.

K

Would have agreed to that designation in order to get his or her lots out and the county would.

K

Say that and the landowner might say: well, I'm not dating it over to you. I still own it.

K

And you would say, but it's reserved and then then you would say well then we're condemning it.

K

And then your appraiser would come in and say this land isn't worth much it's much reserved on a play.

K

And that may be a winning argument. I don't know, but that's how it works out down the road.

K

In this instance, uh we filed this off conveyance application in february 2020 uh earlier this year,.

K

We were recently notified about this road um and then you know we. We understood that the staff.

K

Needed to evaluate it, we're pleased that they uh came to the conclusion that there was no need.

K

For a reservation of dedication, etc, that would be the only reason if there were such a need that.

K

Would be the only reason to require a subdivision plaque? As you know, these off conveyances are.

K

Strange animals they're they're, unique to carroll county and they have their own little history.

K

The key and and in current times in the old days, they were easy and you could just take them.

K

Nowadays, they're almost equivalent to uh the subdivision review process as dan. I know you.

K

Know this you've got to meet the environmental codes. You really have to do almost everything.

K

You would have to do to subdivide the only difference. Is you don't record a subdivision plat.

K

So the only reason to require a subdivision plat in this case, because that road shown on.

K

A plan would be to address or deal with this reservation dedication I mean you could even.

K

You could even say forget, reservation deed it over to us. We might need it in the future, but of course,.

K

You're not going to do that, um so the only reason to require subdivision plot would be to address.

K

This issue, what we're asking you today simply and I've just explained how complicated simply is.

K

uh Simply is to allow us to divide this property via the off conveyance process. um That's what.

K

We applied for um we've got this section of the code that laura said that, if, if an off conveyance.

K

Application involves a public road. You have to go to the planning commission, which makes some sense.

K

Let's take a close look at it: let's take a closer look at it, so what we're asking is the ability.

K

To divide this land by off conveyance by the way this land goes back to 1874 in the crowd family.

H

Is that effectively, I think we're killing the road. The reality is that's what we're doing here.

H

um Does our attorney have anything to add? uh Yes, I was, um I would just agree with everything.

M

uh Mr schaefer um had to say, and his very detailed.

M

um Analysis of uh this issue- and these were all discussed um at the um at the staff meeting.

H

And what is your take differently as far as if we, if.

H

If we move forward, do we effectively kill this road? If what is your opinion, I'm not sure if it's.

M

Effectively killing it, I've been going through the annotated code, and this.

M

The when it comes to the um reservation flats, it's um 6-101 in the uh in the annotated code.

M

There again, I've just been reviewing this during mr clark's um conversation um to see what sort of.

M

Options are available, but I think um you know from the county perspective on just the future.

M

um Acquisition of this, it was discussed through the various agencies that um that it wouldn't be.

M

um Practical might not be the right term, but there were a lot of issues with this road at.

M

This particular property with um sort of geographical issues, topographical issues.

M

um That were all kind of discussed and looked at, um but yes, but I think by moving forward this way.

M

It makes it harder for the county to come back and say that you know.

M

To get this road back so to speak, and maybe the rest of the planning commission is okay with that.

A

Well, I guess what I I'm thinking along the lines exactly as dan, and I agree. Maybe this.

A

Isn't a um feasible or appropriate because we also want to limit the.

A

Access to 140, and so this kind of makes sense. However, I guess what I'm thinking is. We say we're.

A

Not killing it, but is this the correct process we should be going through because if we're talking.

A

About removing a planned street from what the next the westminster environs plan typically.

A

We have our full discussion during the plan changes and we don't make these changes during.

A

A site plan review so are we kind of up usurping? Our typical process is one of my concerns too.

K

You're, not removing the road from the plan um right I get. I get all that clark, but we're still.

A

Like dan saying it in the staff report does say that if we do this, we have we.

A

Will likely remove it during our review of that plan, however, it seems like we're going.

A

In the wrong process, where effectively the reality is clark we're effectively removing it.

H

And in reality, too, we could say it's a subdivision and we reserve it now. We.

H

But the reality is all the things you say it. We could easily say.

H

It's a subdivision plan. There is a major planned street here. You move forward with the subdivision.

H

Process- and I get some of the other things you say, but that's the reality. We could also.

H

Go that direction here, I'm not saying we should, but that's on the table dan. If you, what you're.

K

If, if you did force this to go through the subdivision process,.

K

The question becomes, what would you do with regard to the road and my argument to you is.

K

You can't do anything differently with regard to the road via the subdivision process. It's illegal.

K

It would be illegal um and that's very clear and- and I believe, you're not illegal clark if.

H

It's shown if it's shown, if I go to develop a property and a plan major street, is there.

H

As part of the subdivision process, I have to give that that land to to the county.

K

No, you don't, no you don't if it were only that easy for government to do that.

K

They would be, they would do that every time you cannot simply draw a line on a map.

K

And then, when somebody comes in to develop their property, make them give it to you. That is not true.

K

It you may have, you have seen many subdivision plants that require road frontage, dedication right.

K

20 feet 6 30 feet now. Those dedications are first of all reasonably related to the impact of the.

K

Development, nobody can test them. Everybody dates them right over turn that around and try to say to.

K

Somebody put a 60-foot strip through the middle of your property and indeed that to us. No, you.

K

Can't do it, um so it's just very clear that you cannot do it. Your staff agrees. Your lawyers agree.

K

And and that's buttressed by the process in the land use article that directly says if you're.

K

Gonna do that kind of stuff. You have to have a public hearing notified people, that's the misnomer.

K

By the buy you're not effectively giving up this road because, as I pointed out, it goes through the.

K

Middle of these things: okay, if you, if the county, wants to do this road in the future, they can.

K

Condemn the land buy it and build it by the way when we started looking at this uh to talk with.

K

Staff about it there's a there's, a huge. I don't know if you probably are familiar with it on 140.

K

There's a big slope that comes 140s way below this property, okay way below so our analysis. Frankly,.

K

Was that if you ever did so, what we said to the county was okay, you think you might want this road.

K

um Show us your and your construction drawings of what you need, because that's what you need to do.

K

You know we're not doing it. You show us well, when you start looking at axle d cell lanes on 140.

K

When you start talking to sha about approving another entrance on the 140 and and looking at.

K

What the access permit requirements would be, we would lose at least one lot. We believe maybe two.

K

So, aside from being impractical that it would ever go through- and I know that you you may.

K

Yes, it's possible that 30 years from now 20 years from now, this would be a major.

K

Acquisition by the county to try to require this dedication or equal reservation so anyway,.

A

We've heard I I have a question for linda too, because, okay, maybe it is impractical and we.

A

Would change it? However, we still have the right to make you go through the subdivision process.

A

And so I'm going to ask linda what what is the difference by doing it, the off conveyance way.

A

Or going through the subdivision process, I mean since we're doing it by off conveyance.

A

Does that mean it does not come back to us as a site plan review and subdivision? Would what is.

A

The difference between the two actually, I would refer that to laura, and then I can talk to you.

C

Too, about the comprehensive process so laura. If you can take that and then we'll talk about sure.

F

So correct, if you're correct, miss cheatwood if it goes through a subdivision process.

F

You're, more than familiar with all the subdivision plans um that would be before you.

F

But this is two lots, it's a minor, so you would see it typically, but the code is saying that with that.

F

Plan major street, it becomes a major subdivision. So therefore the full commission sees it.

F

um Just like is our typical process for any other. You know more four lots right: five lots, six slots.

F

You just saw falling green, it's the same um major subdivision process because of that planned major.

F

Street, okay, so and just to yes and so the end result there is the plat recordation and then.

F

Right, where we go with how we yeah what we request and recommend again, staff.

F

Would not recommend a reservation or dedication stemming from the conversation, the staff meeting.

F

With all the directors and the bureau chiefs that were involved in that, okay and being it's.

F

That would not be the direction that the county would go with it, but you would see.

F

It again, and you would end up with a record plot at the end of the process of conveyance.

F

Different process goes through an approval process with staff, and those lots are recorded by deed.

F

And they are entitled to those two lots of off conveyance, so that is what they're proposing so.

F

Linda, if you wanted to discuss the if, linda, if linda an accounting attorney, could just.

H

Speak because one thing that clark brought up I do want clarity on is: if there is a.

H

Road code going through and I'm developing the property, my understanding always has been that.

H

As part of the development process, I got to provide for that road. Am I not correct on me.

C

So again, that's a development review process so laura. How do you all typically handle that.

C

I think again, this would be something for laura to answer how they handle this review.

F

Sure so again, it goes through the review with all the agencies that includes comprehensive planning.

F

So if you think back to the plans you have seen over the past couple years, um even you.

F

Know, site plans are mostly we get. You know we have had some subdivision plans where there.

F

Is a planned major road through there and it it speaks directly to the scenario and the property.

F

I would say we have had inter-parcel connectivity that has addressed the plan. Major road through a.

F

Property has been provided, we have shown very recently. You saw a car wash on liberty, road.

F

um There was a plan major road. Through there, it was depicted as a line and an annotation.

F

Because of the situation with the adjoining properties on either side and the.

F

Viability and feasibility, so I think when planning does their reviews, they provide.

F

Feedback in regards to that plan, major road and addressing that appropriately.

F

On the plan that that is correct, laura, that is how we move forward. With these, I would say from.

C

A planning perspective is this ideal? No, but what we are doing to acknowledge the comprehensive plan.

C

Is that you are putting that line on the plot as it moves forward in the process.

C

Ideally, it would be something that we would go back and we would amend the master plans. We would.

C

Remove this planned major street, um but since this is about the situation, I think having that on that.

C

um Plot actually does pay, it is consistent. Then I think you can save this still consistent with.

C

The master plan, may I may I comment on the uh on that process, which I think was pretty accurate.

K

I'm familiar with the car wash and that's a that is a decent example. There's not many examples of.

K

These big roads. But what happens is that when you see a road on a plan and somebody submits.

K

A development proposal for that land is that a process starts where government seeks to.

K

Accommodate its interest, namely that road with the developers, interest and the car wash is a.

K

Good example, where the car wash parcel was able to be developed in a way that did not obstruct.

K

That service road right and I think it's riding our right now or the service road, okay,.

K

And and yet the developer was still able to get full use of his property. There's dry vials in.

K

There there's parking in there the theory being that if the county ever needed to do ride an hour.

K

They could build it across there without condemning a car wash okay. Now that was.

K

A voluntary agreement, which is usually a com able to be accommodated with the property owner.

K

And if you come in with a farm, that's a hundred acres and you get six lots out of it. You take your.

K

You take your five lots up on the road and you've got a 94 acre remainder or whatever some most of.

K

The times that property owner will say go ahead, I don't care mark a 60-foot area through the middle.

K

Of the remainder I'm building the house somewhere else, it doesn't matter but and again getting.

K

Back to the car wash. If, if the government thought that, in exchange for an approval of that car wash.

K

It could require the developer to build ryden our way across his or her property.

K

They would have tried, they would have tried that they couldn't and didn't do that because their.

K

They know what their rights are and they knew that the the development of that car wash was not the.

K

Reason ryden our way needed to get constructed now, if you were doing a 400 unit, development down.

K

There you probably would be justified in telling the developer to build riding our way or maybe.

K

Build another, so that's the disconnect! Well, so that's that's. What happens here um in this case.

K

If you were to to force- and I think you just heard this indirectly from your staff.

K

If you were to force this developer the property owner to go through the major subdivision process,.

K

You would be creating a major hassle and hurdle and somewhat significant expense.

K

For the developer and you would not be achieving any governmental goal, because that subject.

K

Major subdivision process would not result in a deed or dedication or reservation of this land.

K

It would merely you would not get get that out of that. All you would get is requiring this property.

K

Owner to go through a major hassle, I submit I understand what you're trying to say, clark we're.

H

Getting really technical and in the weeds here so, let's I, I guess we'll wrap it up. You know the big.

H

Question is effectively we're killing. The road is the rest of the planning commission. Okay, with that.

H

I mean because in reality that's what we're doing it sounds like staff is okay with that.

H

uh We kind of got really in the weeds and I apologize. That's partly all my fault.

H

Because I'm this is sort of an interesting discussion, but you know the reality is what.

H

Does the of the planning commission feel about the fact that by making this move in theory.

H

We're not totally killing it, but I would argue that we're effectively pretty much killing it.

D

uh This is jeff. I appreciate this conversation a lot. I enjoy constitutional issues and takings.

D

uh Conversations and all those sorts of things um I do have a proposal that we.

D

Take just a practical approach for today from a problem-solving standpoint, and that is, I think,.

D

I mean my understanding is this: is a plan major road extension, this line on the map.

D

Is going to stay aligned on the map? If we do what the petitioner asks, although practically.

D

Speaking dan, I think you're probably right, but the reality is the line stays on the map for now.

D

I think, looking at the standard we have before us, it says that we shall consider so we have to cover.

D

This uh the division and we may approve it without recording a subdivision plat after a finding that.

D

The division will not adversely affect the construction of a planned street nobody's.

D

Interested in building this street, I think the standard is easily met today, um and so my sense is.

D

That we, that we exercise our discretion in favor of approving it without a subdivision plot, because.

D

It's going to cost a lot more money and take a lot more time and it's a lot more complicated.

D

And practically speaking, I'm not sure that it would serve any purpose. So uh I tend to come down.

D

Again, practically speaking on the side that I feel like the standard is easily met in this 155.020.

D

And so I'd be in favor of it jess. You say that so eloquently.

N

And I agree with everything you just said: does someone make an emotion.

D

Do we have to have public comment on this or we can? We can go straight straight to motion.

A

Well, do we have any callers on the line or anything.

A

I would imagine we would take public comment because we would, if we were physically meeting.

A

It looks like we only have one caller on the line.

A

I would say we don't have any public comment at this time.

A

John, did you want to speak before we take a moment to make a motion.

L

um It's probably not necessary at this point. Thank you, though,.

D

All right I'll, this is jeff I'll, make a motion, then, for the reason that I just stated.

D

I incorporate by reference my prior statement and I would move that. We approve the request.

D

That the subdivision be permitted without recording a subdivision plat I'll second.

A

So I guess I will ask, I mean the staff report specifically says.

A

Finding that the division will not adversely affect the construction of the planned pro.

A

Plot public project or planned street do we have to add that to the motion too.

D

By incorporating by reference what I said, I meant to do that so yes, I find that it, in my view, based.

D

On the discussion that we've had and uh the staff's meeting and their representations as.

D

Well, as what mr schaefer said at the division will not adversely affect the construction of.

D

The planned street, since nobody has any plans to build the street service, you could use the code.

F

Section right in accordance with 155.0204, the planning commission finds okay. I do.

C

All right, I'm, mr cali.

L

Yes, mr hall, yes, miss parker. Yes, mr soyston.

C

Mr swiss, I'm sorry I couldn't hear you yes, yes, I don't know, I don't know what the problem is here.

N

Yes, please let the record reflect that fiverr in favor of the motion carries. Thank you all.

A

Thank you yeah. Thank you, everybody. I think that was an interesting.

A

Conversation that I never thought we would have yeah and I actually it's pretty thing because.

A

We we've been talking about a plan major street. That's going through one of our redevelopment.

A

I'm sorry rezoning, so I'm pretty interested to see how this line in a plan comes to fruition.

A

Thank you laura, so we'll move on to.

A

Item number 12: a special report: s970023 the fleegal property telecommunication.

A

Telecommunication antenna and laura you again, yes, me again, thank you and thank you. Yes, I.

F

Both of these are special reports, and they really truly, I think, are live up to that.

F

And that they're unique, I told you with the last one. You really don't see this. That often.

F

um Same goes true for this next one, so uh some interesting conversation today for certain okay.

F

um So the next special report is it references, a very old file, number you'll notice, s9702.

F

The legal property telecommunication antenna so we're here before you today for it's a request.

F

For an adjustment to the approved plan, the site for this tower is on mayberry road, close to the oh.

F

Bay's [ __ ] mill road- I always have to slow down when I say that one intersection okay. So there was.

F

There's an existing tower on this property. It was approved um by the through of the bza through our.

F

Conditional use back in 1989 and then the planning commission approved a site plan for this tower. In.

F

December of 1989., they came through um in 1997 and added an equipment, building and antennas.

F

To the tower you have those plans in your plan packet and again, the request for you today is.

F

It's an adjustment to the approved plan. um The developer is proposing to add 17 foot, two inches.

F

Vertically an extension to this tower so taking it from 260 256 feet high to 273 foot, two okay, so.

F

In plan here's this parcel the tower sits at the back of that property and there's an.

F

Elevation showing that extension now process-wise um the commission.

F

Chair so ms cynthia cheatwood has chosen to decline to exercise approval authority.

F

Under section 8 of the administrative rules and has requested that this come before the.

F

Full commission for their approval, so that in essence, is all we are here for today.

F

Is approval of the extension of the height of the tower an additional foot, two inches.

F

And the bza, as just so you know, does not need to see this bag. They don't require an additional.

F

Hearing and that is in accordance with mr dixon, the county attorney's representative to the bza.

F

And I do believe: do we have anybody here with the project today? I didn't.

F

Notice that, before I started speaking, I apologize yes, my name is joseph stewart. I'm with crown castle.

F

H

Laura do you have anything? Is that it as far as that? That is that, is it okay, well as long-winded.

H

As we were, as I was with this last one, I will be pretty quick here. um You know the fact of the.

H

Matter is we have a tower, that's already 256 feet and we're adding an aspen 17 feet to it. So it's.

H

273., I don't really see how that suddenly makes it that much different than what it already is.

H

From a standpoint is the existing tower, you know the people around it are already used to to having.

H

That tower there, it is what it is, what it is, it's already 256 feet uh in the air it going another.

H

17 feet: I don't know that it's you know makes it any worse than the fact that the tower's there to.

H

Begin with so I don't see why we would have any objection to to you know the additional height.

H

At this point in time, uh so that's my my take. I don't know how the rest of the commission will be.

A

Thank you, dan. I guess you know that's exactly what I wanted to hear. The reason I didn't do the.

A

Approval is since maybe this is one of the first we've seen. I want everybody else's opinion before.

A

We start down this road, so oh I understand I. I agree. I understand where I I do appreciate the.

F

Start down this road because there may there may be others that come through like this.

H

How does the rest of the commission feel? I don't. I agree uh with you uh both and uh I you know.

D

I think, if anything, we want a process that ultimately we're comfortable with, because.

D

We're probably going to see other towers doing the same thing, given that people are working from home.

D

And people trying to have school from home and all of those things. So if we can do things that.

D

Don't unnecessarily um interfere with uh our roles but allow for better communications throughout the.

D

County, I would you know, I'm in favor of that, so this, whatever 17 foot, two inch extension.

D

On an already existing tower, I think is, is fine and if we saw other circumstances similar to that.

D

I'd be very comfortable with the chair dealing dealing with those.

L

I also agree: I'd rather see additions to towers, as opposed to if they don't get the addition.

L

They have to build another tower somewhere else. Good point.

H

So do we need some kind of motion for approval.

F

I think that would be the the cleanest way to do that. Linda. Do you agree? Yes, please? Yes, I think a.

C

Motion and a vote would be helpful in this case. So do we just need an approval for a motion for.

H

The additional uh the height or what exactly should be the formality of the motion. um I the.

F

Language I used in the staff report I think may be appropriate- is an adjustment to the approved plan.

H

Okay, so I would make a motion for the uh for the adjustment to the uh approved plan to.

H

uh Add additional height uh and make the power from 256 feet to 273 uh two inches. Is that good.

H

Yeah, that's my motion.

D

Let's jump all second, that.

A

Linda, do you want? uh Are you gonna, do a roll call vote if you want to stay motion in a second.

A

I'll go ahead and do this we have a motion for mr hop in the second by mr welders for.

A

Approval of the request for modification for s970023 all right, mr canale. Yes, mr hogg, yes.

C

Is her parent? Yes, mr soy said yes, yes, yes, I heard you this time. Good, mr wathers. Yes,.

C

All right, please let the record reflect that fiber in favor and the motion carries.

A

Okay, thank you so, and I I agree richard that's exactly what I was thinking. I'd rather see an.

A

Extension on an existing tower, then then the new ones should go up. So hopefully this is this. Is the.

A

Next path forward, okay, so our next virtual. Thank you. Thank you laura. Thank you. Virtual meeting is.

A

January 6 of the new year 2021, so I hope everybody has a merry christmas and a happy new year before.

E

We adjourn um and don't want to take away your season greetings and I definitely feel the same.

E

I do want to share with all a couple of decisions that have been made. um One is uh the board of.

E

Commissioners have uh are changing out our positions as far as president vice president.

E

I will be taking the lead as president starting january 4th and commissioner dick weaver will be.

E

Our vice president, um as opposed to commissioner lance and I um respectively, the other issue, is.

E

um We are changing our roles in representation um as ex-officios on the different boards and.

E

Commissions, I will no longer be the ex-officio on the planning commission.

E

Although all of us are available to be, but I will not be representing the board of.

E

Commissioners, commissioner, eric boucher will be the ex-officio starting uh beginning of january.

E

As time allows, I will participate for a couple of those uh commissions.

E

um Meetings to make sure commissioner boucher has a comfort level on uh what his role.

E

And responsibility is um more to follow on uh the other positions and roles that.

E

We're going to be having, but this is just very direct. I just want to make sure you.

E

All understood if you had not heard that uh prior, so okay, any any uh comments, thoughts.

E

And again, happy holidays and I'll give it back to you cynthia, so something to thanks also my term.

L

Is probably coming to a close here pretty soon and I'm sure that the commissioners will be looking at.

L

A suitable replacement, uh so um unless I hear from them otherwise I'll be there on the sixth.

L

But if I, if I do hear from them, I may not. I just want to say that I've thoroughly enjoyed working.

L

With this planning, commission and uh you're doing a great job, and you will continue to do a good job.

D

So wow this is jeff two things one, um commissioner, russian. It's been a real pleasure having you as.

D

The ex officio uh we've really enjoyed your interests and um passion that you bring to.

D

This and the open communication back and forth, um it's been really nice and just at a personal level,.

D

I can say I very much enjoyed having you on our commission, so it's been a pleasure. Thank you.

D

The other thing I want to say is uh richard: it's been incredibly uh rewarding having you serve as a.

D

Chair, you know vice chair and chair and uh getting to work with you and I I particularly enjoy some.

D

Of the more intense debates we've had, particularly when I was sitting next to you, and we would.

D

Take contract positions and you would make your argument I'd make my argument. Then you'd lean down.

D

And you'd quietly say you're not going to support me on this. Are you and I would quietly say no.

D

um And other times yes, but uh just the it's it's uh it's a good example of why.

D

I'm so proud to be part of this commission because, as as we've all said,.

D

Many times um the spirited debate is uh something I think is missing too often in public discourse.

D

And it happens here for the benefit of the of our community, because I think we elevate ideas.

D

And we take a look at things from all sides and we do it by uh maybe shredding an argument.

D

And fully respecting the proponent of the argument doesn't happen very often in this day and age and.

D

I think we're all worse off, for it not happening often, but we're better for it happening here and.

D

uh Richard you've helped facilitate that you've helped set the tone for that you've.

D

Made wonderful arguments and you've persuaded me when I was in a different position and.

D

You persuaded me over because you had a better argument and that's the way it's supposed to work.

D

And the county is better for all of that, um so that doesn't begin to capture all you've added.

D

Through your years here- and I hope we have more time to talk about that- but I just wanted to say.

D

At a personal level, professional level, it's been thoroughly enjoyable, rewarding.

D

I've grown a lot learned, a lot from you, so thank you, I'm not going to repeat everything just said.

H

But I agree with him in all regards uh it's been great having commissioner rolsteen here with us.

H

And I will miss richard very, very, very much and you know it's been great.

N

Yes, I agree totally. um Commissioner, you have brought a very welcome aspect to this.

N

Commission, so we definitely appreciate you, I know I do and richard I'm going to miss you.

N

When you're finally gone from here, um but I will say in my mind, I'm already thinking.

N

What would richard say so? I think that something will resonate with me.

L

I guess I have to ditto everything that was said by my fellow commissioners.

L

I'm not going to repeat all that we'll miss we'll miss both of you.

A

Yeah, thank you, everybody and thank you, commissioner, for everything. You've brought.

A

Thankful for speaking up and basically giving us an indication of really what the commissioners.

A

Are thinking sometimes we're wondering that and that don't necessarily get that point of view and.

A

Also to richard uh it will be very weird to come to a meeting and you're. Not there.

A

Since you've been here since I started so um wow, thank you thanks to both of you.

A

I think the ca, the county's very lucky, I think we've got a lot of dedicated people highly.

A

Intelligent that are that are doing this, so I just want to say again thank you so much to both of you.

C

You're being on this commission, your mentorship in many ways for my position and your faith and.

C

Confidence and what we do has really been so supportive and so helpful to furthering our.

C

Mission in the county's mission, so thank you for your service. uh Commissioner. I mean I'm planning.

C

Commission, member solicitor and thank you, uh commissioner, honestly for all you did for a.

C

Planning, commission and fire department you'll be missed, okay, so wow. So things may look very.

A

Different when we come back in just a couple weeks, uh let's here's hoping that 2021 is.

A

Very different from 2020 and uh I'll make a motion to adjourn the meeting and merry.

A

Christmas happy holidays and have a great new year stay safe, happy holidays. Everybody. Thank you.

D