Carroll County, MD Carroll County Planning and Zoning Commission, 16 Nov 2021

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From YouTube: Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting November 16, 2021

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https://www.carrollcountymd.gov/government/boards-commissions/planning-zoning-commission/

A

Good morning, I'd like to call the planning commission meeting to order for november 16.

A

2021., I am presiding as chair because today is our elections. um I'd like to establish a quorum hi.

B

Mr waters, mr canale, here mr kirkner, here, mr lester.

B

Dear mr hoff, here commissioner, here secretary eisenberg here.

B

Mrs chair, please let the record reflect that five members are present and we do have a quorum.

A

All right, so the next order of business before we do the pledge of allegiance is to elect a chair.

A

For this meeting, um this is our annual elections, so we will go ahead and do the election script.

A

So the hold the record open for the board position. Okay, hold on sorry, laura.

A

Where's that say, secretary.

A

Okay, sorry, um in accordance with the rules and procedures of the planning.

A

And zoning commission, I now declare nominations open for the office of chair.

A

Who would like to nominate a board member for chair? I know jeff weather for chair.

A

Okay, um jeff wathers has been nominated and seconded for chair.

A

Are there any other nominations for office of the chair.

A

All right, I would like now to close the nomination for office of chair.

A

And elect jeff walthers for the office of the chair.

A

Okay, um now we're going to go ahead and do a motion for the vice chair. I nominate janice as.

C

Last year, you may have a second also recommended all right, all in favor for janice kirkner as.

A

Vice chair of the planning and zoning commission hi um since mr wathers is not here this morning, ms.

A

Kirkner will now proceed with the meeting as chair and then we'll do. The election of the secretary.

D

Thank you linda.

D

Okay, we will now hold the election of secretary, hold the record open for the.

D

Board position of secretary: are there any nominees for the board position of secretary.

E

E

I'll, second, that.

D

A motion has been made and seconded. Are there any other nominations for the board.

D

Position of secretaries hearing, none all those in favor of elected.

D

Linda eisenberg for the board position of secretary sahib.

D

Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you all to for new members and for serving in these positions.

D

Okay, I would like to call the meeting to order.

D

And we already established a quorum, so we will do the pledge of allegiance.

D

I pledge allegiance to the fire of the united states of america and to.

D

The republic for which it stands, one nation, under god, indivisible with liberty and justice forever.

D

D

Review and approval of agenda, um so there are um some revisions to today's agenda.

A

So um we added the next meeting will be virtual for wednesday december 1st at 6 00 pm um and then.

A

Secondly, we did the order of the elections. We did not need to elect a chair pro tem, so we did.

A

Item nine, which is election of commission chair vice chair and secretary, um in replacement of.

A

Item three, so that did change for today's agenda. The rest is the same okay. Thank you.

D

Commission member reports, I have none.

F

Commissioner, do you have a report good morning? uh First of all, thank you for stepping up janice and uh we'll.

F

Thank jeff when he, uh when he gets here that he was unable to be here today, so we do appreciate.

F

Those folks that move up in leadership roles, and especially on this, this is very important and.

F

You've heard me say this: a million times and I'll continue to say it. The planning and zoning and.

F

Board of zoning appeals are both groups that sort of set the stage for the county. Look at the future.

F

And make some really important decisions so again appreciate those that have stepped up and those to.

F

Continue to serve with that here's, my commercial, you see we were a little bit on the edge of having.

F

A quorum today we have some openings and for me I think it's very important to ensure that we have.

F

A good balance on here of folks from various areas of the county, so I would ask that um first of all,.

F

Let me back up just a second and uh thank ms cheapwood for her years of service. We did that.

F

At the work session the other evening, but she served very well.

F

Shaq actually was in my district district one and she did a again a wonderful job here. So.

F

Back to my commercial, we're looking for some good folks that want to serve on this on this on.

F

Planning and zoning, so it's very easy to do that. Go onto our website. There's an application process.

F

To fill that out, I will tell everyone that these positions on planning and zoning and board of.

F

Zoning appeals are both boards and commissions. Now that we interview for many, we just choose.

F

And we go on, but these are very important, so we interview these as most of you know and.

F

We we try to pick some really really good people that we think fit uh these these. These boards.

F

And commissions, so please take a look at that. If you're interested make sure you get a hold of us.

F

We're very easy to get a hold of phone numbers everywhere. You can email us, you can go onto our.

F

Website- and we would appreciate a lot of interest here as we move forward so.

F

With that said, I think I'll stop and again. Thank you all for serving.

F

um And we look forward to what's coming in the future here. Thank you, janice thank you or or madam.

G

Vice chair, madame vice chair: let's do it appropriately! Thank you.

D

um Any other commission members want to say anything no.

D

Okay, we'll go on to the administrative report.

D

Linda eisenberg all right good morning, everyone thank you for being here this morning, um just.

A

A few matters for the administrative report, as commissioner want said, we are short two members.

A

Most recently, our chairwoman, cynthia cheatwood, stepped down from her position as well as our.

A

Alternate michael gosnell, so we would love to have some new members come on board so that we can.

A

Have these meetings and keep doing the business of carroll county and thank you all for being.

A

Here today, and for your dedication and for the dedication of the members who have served such.

A

As miss cheatwood as chair she's, going to be greatly greatly missed in all of this.

A

Also, just a reminder: the public hearing for the residential text amendments.

A

And the map changes will be this thursday. We are having two public hearings for that. The first is.

A

In the afternoon at 1 pm in this room 003, it will be hosted by the board of county commissioners.

A

So that will be an in-person meeting, keep in mind, there's a 25 person limit due to coveted.

A

Restrictions in this room, so um there's also another option to attend in the evening at 7, 00 pm.

A

Which will be virtual, there's sign up for the virtual meeting on our website.

A

And you can also submit comment for either public hearing. It doesn't matter at any time.

A

On our website is now as of now, and you can also email us any comments you have on the.

A

Residential text amendments and the map amendments as well, so again, that's this thursday.

A

And with that, I'm going to see if there's any extensions for this month.

A

Okay, so there are no extensions and then I'm going to have abigail rogers come and give.

A

You a quick report on bza activities good morning. There are currently no bza cases awaiting hearing.

H

On october 26 the bca heard cases 6350 and 6348 case 6350 was for conditional use as a country inn.

H

As well as a variance at 1920, bachmann valley, road in the agricultural zone, district 1 manchester.

H

Case 6348 was for a conditional use for a landscape supply yard.

H

On london town boulevard in the c3 zone, district 5 of sykesville both bzas, were.

H

Approved on october 27th, the bca heard case 6349 freedom's grant. This was for a retirement.

H

Home on arrington road in the r 20 000 zone, district 5 eldersburg- this use was also approved.

A

There any questions and if you recall the last bza case that abigail mentioned.

A

For freedom's grant, that was, for the conditional use approval of the retirement home, um even though.

A

It's a misnomer, it's it's, a community retirement community and you all did approve the density.

A

Of that prior to it going to be easy, which is the proper procedure so at.

A

Some point they'll be back, I'm sure, with a um site plan for your review as well.

A

Thank you, um and that is all I have for my administrative report this morning.

A

Thank you linda. Okay, um next on the agenda, we've already done the election.

D

So the administrative rules and proposed 2022 meeting dates um so with the proposed.

A

Administrative rules, I'm just going to pull up really quickly, just a brief proposal. I believe.

A

We discussed at our last virtual meeting had to do with the inclement weather policy just for a.

A

Clarification more than anything because we are in this hybrid, virtual and um in-person environment.

A

So section 3.6 is our inclement weather policy and we follow carroll county public schools. So.

A

If they are closed, we are closed and then there are times when they are not in session as well.

A

That we may have to close, and that would be on an as needed basis if the county office building.

A

Closes for whatever reason um or you know it's an evening meeting, we determine at some point in time.

A

That, during the day, it's just too treacherous to travel. I know we have this virtual ability.

A

But we need to be able to be here to stream this, and we can't do that if the building's closed so.

A

I thought it would just make it clearer to say in person or virtual.

A

Because I didn't want anyone to think well, we can still do it virtually, even though we.

A

Can't drive to the county office building or whatever it's just better just to have.

A

I think a blanketed policy regarding virtual are there any questions. Comments concerns with that.

F

So I do okay, uh I'm curious as to where this policy came from.

F

And the reason I ask is because there are times when carroll county public schools are closed.

F

But the government is not: why wasn't the policy sort of uh tailored after the the county office.

F

Building or county government, if you will that, I am not sure of this- has been our policy for.

A

As long as I can remember that we follow carroll county schools and I would venture to guess that.

A

It's because they make announcements about school closures on the tv and radio and that's widely.

A

Known so, if we have a policy that can be widely distributed, and that follows that it just makes.

A

It better for getting the word out that we will not be having planning commission that day. Okay.

F

It was just it was curious. I I guess I just didn't realize this was in place, so yeah.

F

You know perhaps a look at this in the future I mean if county government's open and the schools.

F

Are not, I believe we should continue to operate here. So that's a discussion. We can change that.

A

Too, I mean that's what this november is about. We review these administrative rules and procedures.

A

Every november, so that is something that the planning commission would like to consider.

A

Is just not even following carroll county public schools policy just following if the county is.

A

Open or shut, that's something for your discussion as well. It's food for thought! Folks, I don't. I.

F

Don't know because there are many times that again they they close uh and I I'm gonna to. I don't want.

F

To really be too blunt here, but there are times when schools are closed and folks go wait. What.

F

uh So and county government is fully operational and you know off, we go and we do. uh We have a.

F

Really good process here uh with a with a conference, call at oh dark 30 in the morning.

F

With our roads departments and our of our facility folks that make that decision now.

F

Carroll county public schools listens in on that, but the county in most cases, makes independent.

F

Decisions not based on what the schools are doing, so I just you know I just want to be clear about.

F

That, just because the schools are closed doesn't mean that county government is so that's. Why again.

F

Food for thought: I'm not suggesting one way or the other, but just something to think about. I believe.

F

That you know we our operations here, go we do again. We do an extensive look in the morning.

F

As to whether or not we're operating or not so I'll leave it there, the great thing about.

C

There's no great thing about pandemic, but I think we've all learned.

C

You know how to do things virtually and that's given us a level of flexibility, but it also.

C

Has created this level of complexity right? Because we have people who think the meetings.

C

Here we talked about this last week. You know they think the meeting's here and all of a sudden. We.

C

Cancel it and we can do everything in our power to communicate those changes, but people will still.

C

Be wondering where and if the meeting is owned, so you know I'm fine following you.

C

Know doing what the county is doing if the county is open, we're open, I'm fine with that.

C

I think my concern is how we make people aware that you know is. The meeting is the meeting on.

C

Is it off? When will that decision be made and how will it be communicated to the public, because the.

C

Public needs to be aware, because we don't want them on the roads if we're not so and again,.

C

Linda, I I I don't have a solution for this. You know where, where there's again, with flexibility.

C

Comes complexity and um I I don't know how to fix it because again, I think we do a pretty good job.

C

Communicating- and we still have people complaining that hey, I thought the meeting was on so.

C

um I don't know what to do and I think we will always have people complaining. Honestly. It's.

F

Just yeah you're, not you're, not gonna, get around that and actually, when we instituted carol, connect.

F

Which is a part of our website now, where it's very easy? It takes you about a minute and a half and.

F

And, as you know, everybody's got at least one of these things somewhere.

F

uh When you sign up with carol connect, you get the latest information on this little device.

F

uh As to whether or not we're open or not a little bit easier than what we do, when.

F

We're following the schools, because that doesn't come over our carol: connect phones,.

F

So that that's another reason why I don't know, I just feel that this is a little bit antiquated.

F

Where we should really be following county government as opposed to the school system,.

D

So how do we get people to sign up for carol connect? You want me to do another commercial sure.

F

Very easy to do. Are you going to earn money there you go usually when we bring these up in session.

F

Before we get it out of our mouth, chris swam goes whoop and up it comes so, uh but on our.

F

Website and he'll bring it up. uh You can go there correct me. If I'm wrong chris then can you.

I

Should be minimized at the bottom.

F

F

So this is on our website correct chris.

I

That is correct. You just need to look for this little icon here, our footer and also.

I

Multiple places, every page of our website there's something called carol: connect.

I

Email notices subscribe here, just click on there enter your email and choose your topic.

F

And does that activate cell phones as well? Do we put selfies okay if you're, if your.

I

Email is attached to your cell phone. We use. We use text notifications internally.

G

Associated with that.

F

Okay, so so there you have it so that makes it a lot easier to get.

F

The latest information right on this device, so I just feel it it might be better.

F

Again, to upgrade this particular policy and perhaps go with county government as opposed to.

F

Carroll county public schools, so would there be a possibility on our meeting agendas to put a little.

D

Blurb, without just reminding people they can sign up with carol connect. We can absolutely so we can.

A

Change 3.6, then to say in the event, carroll county government is closed due to weather, related issues.

A

Any scheduled business meetings in person or virtual will be canceled, so we can just change.

A

That language and then on our agendas and on the planning commission website.

A

We can put um please sign up for carol, connect for alerts and then we will post on our website.

A

As well, if meetings are canceled because of weather and the county office is closed, so.

A

We make sure that everyone will be directed to always check prior to any meaning yeah. That's.

D

Perfect, do you need a motion to make that change? um If you all are ready to do that today, um we.

A

Can do that correct, jim yeah? We can do that if you're ready to take that motion today. If you.

A

Wanted to wait to our next meeting; okay, so I'll make that I'll! Second, that, okay, all in paper.

A

Okay: okay: we will we'll change this and then for our next meeting.

A

um We will have uh you sign off then, on the new administrative rules and procedures for this year.

A

All right, thank you all. Thank you.

D

Okay, do we have anything? Will the meeting needs.

A

um Laura the meeting dates. Can you please review that with everyone.

B

Hopefully, you still have them from the last time or remember them or can refer to them.

B

um I think the only question and again a lot of these we can and we do end up canceling as.

B

It gets closer because things come up that we didn't plan on. um I didn't know if you wanted.

B

To make a decision on the july 6th one ahead of time, knowing that people are usually on.

B

Vacation or that's something you wanted to wait until it got closer, I I thought we had.

D

Said last time, we'd just leave it on just in case, but knowing that those people will be away because.

B

Jeff hardy told us he would be okay, so we'll leave that one as it is and then for the december one.

B

um It is currently scheduled to be december 20th. There were two or three years ago we had had one.

B

That week kind of right before christmas- and it was very stressful for lots of people um so.

B

That, following year, we had decided to move it up, so that would be moving it to december 13th.

B

And again, do you want to make that decision now or do you want to wait till it gets closer.

B

E

Next year, well, that's next year, okay I'll apologize! I'm looking at the calendar next year.

B

2022. so, for example, for this year, we did do that. So our meeting is the 14th of december and set up.

B

December 21st we had made that decision last year. Yeah I apologize yeah. Does that seem good.

B

Yes, okay and then um it just I just noted um the summer mako, so that would be for mako 2022.

B

Those dates aren't yet published, but the winter they do go ahead and show that that is going to.

B

Happen in january 2023 because it's an election year, okay, just to note on there and we typically.

A

Cancel that because um typically I attend um and our commission commissioner attends.

A

As well as others, so sometimes it's a little hard, especially during summer mako, um because.

A

Typically, development review- there's always some representative from other departments going and.

A

So it makes a little challenging for summer maker too to have that meeting that week as well. Okay,.

B

But you don't have to worry about that. Yet because that's january 2023.

D

That's good, okay, so all right I'll make these official post them on our website. All right.

G

Thank you. Thank you all right now, that's all the business that we had for the administrative.

A

Rules and procedures, as well as proposed meeting dates, are there any other questions or comments or.

B

I just want to also add the reason why recess is there is because, typically when we would.

G

Do an election we would have a recess to kind of reset and resist everybody, but I don't know that.

B

You need to do that now, yeah. I was just going to test about the need for that. Okay. So unless.

D

Let's do this: okay, we will forego the reassess. Next is a special report.

D

J

J

Okay, thank you miss vice chair, uh as mentioned the next item on the agenda.

J

Is a special report for a grading only plan file, number g gr0-20-0018.

J

And this is for the salt box park um trail that is proposed. My name is david b craft.

J

With the bureau of development review and with me, is mr jeff degas, who is the director.

J

Of recreation and parks, and as mentioned this is a project that is proposing.

J

A new trail which will span from salt box park, which is along gillis, falls road down.

J

To a a small parking area on greenville, road and I'll, show you, as we go through this presentation.

J

Generally, for grading only plans, this does not need to go before the plane, planning and zoning.

J

Commission, however, in accordance with county and state code, we are here looking for the termination.

J

Of consistency with this plan with the master plan, the carroll county master plan.

J

So, for those who are not familiar, this project is down on the southern portion of the county.

J

This is gillis falls road here. This is grimville road down here, and this is john pickett road here.

J

So this project is comprised of multiple parcels that are owned by the carroll county commissioners,.

J

The affected parcels are the one that are outlined here.

J

And for the most part, as you can see, the property is pretty undeveloped.

J

Salt box park is located up here, with access to gallus falls road and the equestrian center.

J

Is down here off of greenville road, the adjoining properties that adjoin the county-owned lands.

J

They're all zoned conservation and they're either comprised of residential lots or are undeveloped.

J

So, on december, 11th of 2020, which is last year, a grading only plan for gillis falls.

J

Park phase one was submitted to the bureau development review. Essentially, what is what.

J

Is proposed is a 12 foot wide trail again, which will span from salt box park up here and it.

J

Is difficult to see on here, um but there's a trail that kind of meanders through the lands kind of.

J

Parallel to the stream down to a parking area, a new parking area down here off of greenville road.

J

There are pedestrian bridges that are proposed for the portions of the trail that will cross over the.

J

Existing stream and the trail is intended to be utilized by hikers, bikers and equestrians as well.

J

There will be locked gates at each end of the trailer to prevent vehicles from.

J

Entering the trail, except for maintenance or emergency purposes, non-vehicle trail access.

J

Can be accomplished at each and through openings that are adjacent to the gates.

J

And to give a better idea, I'm going to zoom in on some parts here, so this is salt box park.

J

This is the proposed paving that is going to span from the entrance down to this parking area here.

J

And this parking area will provide 15 parking spaces, two of which will be ada accessible.

J

And down off of grimville here this is the new proposed parking area down here.

J

And this will be comprised of 19 parking spaces, two of which again will be handicap accessible.

J

So, to kind of give an idea as to with this being consistent with the master plan.

J

With the help of the department of planning, we pulled out some snippets.

J

From the carroll county master plan- and so I'm just going to go through this here.

J

So within chapter three, which is vision and goals and that's on page 24 goal number nine.

J

States to provide an affordable, coordinated and comprehensive system of public and private.

J

Parks, recreational facilities and programs and open space that will enhance our communities.

J

Within chapter 11, which is for parks and on page 85, it states it is essential in areas.

J

That must rely upon surface water as their main water supply that reservoir sites be planned in.

J

Advance of their need and that they'd be well protected after their creation. Fortunately,.

J

This has created the opportunity to develop low impact. Recreational facilities such as.

J

Boating areas, hiking trails, picnic area and bridal pass on the land surrounding reservoirs.

J

Within that same chapter on the same page number 85, it also states beyond simply being nearby.

J

Places for play these parks and open space facilities provide numerous other advantages.

J

To residents and their surrounding neighborhoods community benefits include promoting convenient.

J

Opportunities for healthy community activities and lifestyles, safe and child accessible.

J

Recreation, space for organized and individual sports and aesthetically pleasing green space.

J

Within the same chapter on page 87, it states the county, should plan for and provide its.

J

Citizens with a network of parks, recreation areas and open space that serve the need of.

J

The entire population to the greatest extent possible and finally, within the same chapter.

J

On page 156, it states uh preserve the union. Mills and gilles falls area for passive recreation uses.

J

So through this process, recreation and parks has held multiple public meetings with the.

J

Local communities on august 24 2021, the department of recreation parts had a public meeting at the.

J

Charledon golf course, which is very close to salt box park, and they wanted to provide an update on.

J

The project's progress there were no significant objections at that meeting. However, there were.

J

Some questions raised regarding the parking and bridge surfacing for the equestrian users, so as.

J

A follow-up mr degas, who is to my left, attended a meeting of the carroll county equestrian council.

J

On september, 7th, to provide more insight into the bridge surfacing and address citizen concerns.

J

So, in reference to the review agencies, soil conservation, as well as grading and sediment.

J

Control have granted approval of the plans. This site is subject to the requirements of stormwater.

J

Management and due to the pro due to the proximity of the trail to the existing stream, the proposed.

J

Trail is also subject to the requirements of water resources and flood plain, so they this.

J

Project will still progress through the grading only review process, but we didn't want to get all.

J

The way to the end and then have to come to plan a commission and hold up the project in any way.

J

So we wanted to get this in front of you guys now, so that you can review it and make a determination.

J

So, as mentioned at the beginning of the meeting, so in accordance with carroll county code as well.

J

As the annotated code of maryland and both of those snippets have been included in your report,.

J

Staff recommends that the planning commission find the grading only plan as.

J

Consistent with the carroll county master plan,.

J

And that's all I have um I'll go through some pictures of the site here.

J

So all four of these pictures are up at softbox park. uh The bottom left shows the entrance.

J

um And then the two on the actually the rest of the three show where the proposed paving will be.

J

Top left is going to be where the parking area is as well as the bottom right and then.

J

The top right is going to be where the trail extends out of.

J

On to the next slide here, just more pictures of softbox park, so the trail is going to extend.

J

Out here and wrap around the existing ballpark, that's already there there is going to be paving.

J

Down uh towards the second ballpark as well, and then just a couple shots of salt box park here.

J

And this is the entrance to the park again. This is going to be paved as part of this.

J

Grading only plan there is going to be a new sign, that's proposed and a new access gate as well.

J

And finally, this is off of grenville road, so you can see there's a pretty tight hairpin turn here.

J

With a parking area shown here and there's a lot of leaves, so I apologize it's difficult to.

J

See here- and this is the existing entrance to the wildlife management area- that's currently there so.

J

Again, I'd be happy or mr davis would be happy to answer any questions or concerns you guys may have.

C

I'll ask is the parking area sufficient for horse trailer? You know turn around drop off.

C

That sort of thing that's a great question. The parking area grenville road really is designed.

K

For vehicles and not trailers, the equestrian center is literally right up the hill. From that.

K

And there is parking on the outside of the fence for the equestrian center and that's where horse.

K

Trailers will be directed to park okay, so my memory of grimsville really is kind of windy.

D

And I do see that hairpin turn there um are there and- and it is a county road, correct, that's correct.

D

Okay, so it's black, topped and marked well, yes, and actually the gate that you see there.

K

Is the former entrance to the old camp woodbrook? It was a summer church camp. I believe for a number.

K

Of years before the county purchased it sections of this trailer already in place, including that.

K

Old service road, which is now repurposed as a trail people currently park outside that gate,.

K

On the turn, this will be creating a new parking lot inside the gate.

K

We'll basically be pushing that gate back so it'll make for much safer access for people.

C

Ask about the bridges in the in equestrian, um you know.

C

How did you resolve I'm just curious as a former rehearsal horse owner? What kind of.

C

Surface is going to be, and and how did you resolve that with the equestrian community.

K

It's actually kind of funny, because I've been doing this for a while and you never cease.

K

To learn new things and we've worked with the equestrian group for a number of years.

K

They had some concerns about a bridge with a wooden surface. That's going to be in shaded areas.

K

Where, potentially, you get some slick spots right and if they're going to be arched at all traction.

K

For horses could be an issue and one of the things we discussed was basically paint with granular.

K

Paint it has sand or some other substances in there, and you will need to do that on an ongoing.

K

Basis to monitor that, but that will provide safe traction for the horses crossing, the bridges.

L

Matt, do you have anything yeah.

L

Was just so outstanding.

K

Thank you very much. I appreciate that. We've gotten a lot of positive feedback and.

K

We're very pleased with how that project turned out.

D

Very good, okay! Well, we have no other questions. I think um we do paid in public comments like.

D

There's a lot of public comment that have signed up for this particular item.

A

um Lara bavetta has the names of those who have signed up. So if we can um get those on the line.

A

And laura will call the names of the individuals who would like to comment on this particular item.

B

I'm not sure exactly exactly how this is going to work with them, controlling that I'm just.

B

Calling the names, but um so the first person that we have signed up is bernadette thorne,.

B

M

Yeah um my comments were or questions are.

M

About the parking at the salt box, um you said: there's going to be 15 parking spots.

M

That's correct um so as far as the ball fields um is there going to be enough parking for.

M

uh Competitors and and people playing ball, as well as people walking these paths. This was one.

K

Of the items that was discussed at the public meetings and also a meeting with the woodbine.

K

Recreation council and there's various opinions on this, but, from our perspective we believe there.

K

Will be sufficient parking both where players have parked before and then also, if you come.

K

In the entrance to the park and go straight ahead, there's additional parking there as well.

K

So we do believe it'll be sufficient and the trail usage you're going to get people coming.

K

And going throughout the day, it won't be large influxes of people at one time. Like you see,.

M

Okay, then, the next question I had was about the the maintenance of the path.

M

I know there's significant amount of water that flows through there.

M

I'm sure that the pass is going to get eroded. The bridge is probably washed out.

M

Where's, the money going to come from to maintain this, this path.

K

The trail will be maintained just as we maintain our other park sites and do maintenance on.

K

Ball fields and mowing different areas trail will be designed in a way to try to minimize.

K

That maintenance as much as possible so in terms of any runoff or storm water, we'll try to minimize.

K

The impact on the trail itself, we also have an issue with pushback through the woods in there. So.

K

Potentially needed an ongoing issue as well. Isn't it a low-lying area that is susceptible to being.

M

Washed out a wetlands area that you're going to be going through, um we will be avoiding the.

K

Wetlands as much as possible and where we can't avoid them, there will be bridges to go over them.

K

And again it will be designed in a way to try to minimize that maintenance as much as possible.

K

One of the challenges is the best viewpoints tend to be in the low areas along the streams.

K

It's also a little more challenging to build the trails there on the plus side. They are.

G

Levels so that helps make it ada accessible by boot by building it in those low areas.

M

What's the elevation change from where the trail is going to be to the the creek bed.

K

That's not something I could answer off the top of my head. I would have to.

K

Take a look at the plans and that's something that we could certainly get back to you with.

K

But the grade of the trail itself is not going to.

K

Differentiate by more than just a couple of percentages, maybe two percent three percent grade.

M

Okay, I think it. I think the.

M

Plan might need to be reviewed a little bit just because of the fact that.

M

How much water does slow down through there and.

M

There's significant washouts down through there now from.

M

When the water crests the banks of the river, it doesn't take much.

K

I can appreciate that again, a lot of those four-wheeler trails have created some.

K

Alleys for the water to accumulate there, and that is added to some of the challenges. But we are.

K

Working with all of the necessary review agencies to try to make sure we do this in the most.

K

Sensible way with the least impact okay, I guess that being said, the only other thing is just the.

M

Maintenance of it, I think the uh I'd like to know where the money's gonna come from to maintain this.

M

This path and how how many times it's gonna have to wash out before we say: okay, bad idea,.

K

Well, we're hopeful, we don't have the sections of the trail washed out the maintenance for county.

K

Parks in general is currently budgeted through public works through the bureau of facilities.

K

So that that's where those funds would be budgeted.

M

J

And to answer your your question in reference to the great change, just taking a quick look at the.

J

Plans, uh as mentioned by mr daggett's, the trail does kind of meander through the woods. So there's.

J

Points where it's closer and there's points where it's further, um just looking at the points where.

J

It's closer to the stream, it looks like it is a roughly we'll say five or ten foot vertical change.

G

Okay and and then uh for safety aspect when.

M

When it is flooding, how are we gonna keep people out of there.

K

uh A lot of that will happen. It is not a staffed area, so a lot of that will be determinations made.

K

By the users of the trail and for the most part they start to hit some muddy stretches. I think.

K

A lot of folks are going to turn around at that point, but it is not staffed. We will.

K

Not be monitoring it that way on a daily basis. We will monitor our ongoing maintenance issues.

M

Because it seems like it's all, it's also a safety concern for you know it doesn't take.

M

Long for the water to rise and if you're in there and get caught in a thunderstorm.

M

uh The county is actually putting people's safety at risk by putting this trail in.

B

Thank you. I think we need to go to our next caller.

B

uh Jessica harrison.

N

Hi, thank you. I have a couple questions. I actually live on the other side of um the salt box, so my.

N

Property backs up to that county area that is across the salt box, and I have a lot of.

N

Questions um I was actually at the meeting that was at the golf course, and I think there is.

N

Some miscommunication, with um both the park and rec uh the woodbine park and wreck and.

N

The carroll county community uh horse council, also with the community that lived in 2197.

N

We were never surveyed, I know you guys put it on facebook. I appreciate that you.

N

Are using social media to reach out, but the people that actually were surveyed with less than.

N

One percent of the population in carroll county, which did not include anyone that lived in 21797.

N

We were not happy, so I'm not sure where that came from the majority of the people. That.

N

Actually lived in that area lived, not attended. The meeting but lived in that area was very concerned.

N

About this walking trail, you also have crim gold park. Currently in the area. The zip code of 21797.

N

Which is not completed at this time, if you have money to spend.

N

On a park that has so many concerns about how you're gonna communicate to the public hunters.

N

Safety planning of the water, um the water that rises down there I mean it's majority of swamps,.

N

When we question the people that were putting on the gentleman that came out to the actual.

N

Meeting they just kept saying they needed to go back to the drawing board. There is much concern.

N

To the safety of this of the public and the community members that live in that 21797 area.

N

I'm sorry hold on. Excuse me, this needs to be addressed. It does not. I I feel strongly about.

N

Saying that everybody was happy or everybody was okay, this was not surveyed properly.

N

This is not how you survey when you don't even include anyone in that 21797. This.

N

That actually lives there.

O

Go ahead, the survey that was referenced at the public meeting was the needs assessment survey.

K

That the county completed earlier this year, as mentioned in the meeting there were a couple.

K

Of components to that survey one was a random survey where people were randomly selected from.

K

Throughout the county from the property tax records and people got an opportunity to say.

K

Which facilities they wanted to see which types were most important to them, and then there was.

K

Also, an open component to that survey, which was posted on our website and we received.

K

Over a thousand responses in total to that needs, assessment survey and those responses came from.

K

Throughout the county and anyone within woodbine was this: any other community had the opportunity.

K

To participate in that survey and obviously with over a thousand responses, many people chose to.

K

Participate in that survey, so that's what was revered at that public meeting and the folks.

K

Overwhelmingly said that trails, and particularly trails, that would go from one location to another.

K

Were by far their highest priority, so that was the survey that was referenced and then the other.

K

Thing he brought up was criminal park and with that site not being finished, that is correct.

K

There were substantial program open space funds years back that were budgeted for the completion.

K

Of grenfell park, those funds were diverted at the state level and it's been done by governors.

K

From both parties and they're scheduled to be paid back at some point in the future.

K

But to date have not yet been paid back, so those those funds potentially could address funding.

K

The remainder of primal part that is a paved walking trail. Criminal parking, is a loop trail.

A

And it's not a trail that goes from one place to another and could not accommodate equestrians.

N

I think that one of them.

N

Sorry one thing I think that needs to be communicated, though.

N

Is the communication that is going to go out to the people using the trail so.

N

The question council, I feel like those people that were at the meeting at the golf course.

N

They were under the impression that they would be able to park horse trailers off of gillis falls.

N

There that that's not happening, I think it just needs to be very clear since evidently, this is.

N

In place, it's going to happen, but the way that you're going to communicate to everyone that is.

N

Going to be able to use this trail needs to be clear, including when are are we going to be able.

N

Are people going to be able to hunt down there? How is this going to be communicated.

N

How is the safety, how is like the water rising? All these things need.

N

To be communicated not put on the back burner of we'll get to it, when we can.

N

Or when it comes about the safety, I'm telling you the safety, is gonna come back and bite y'all.

N

Okay, thank you. Thank you. I need to go. Thank you next, caller john arnold.

P

I represent a bunch of trail users just bikers and hikers, and also help maintain some of the.

P

Trails that are there at gillis falls, and so I'd like to just lend our support. We're really.

P

Excited to see something like this happen in the southern part of carroll county, so right now many.

P

Many trail users are, you know, they're driving out of carroll county to do this.

P

And they go to parks like little bennett that have similar paths along similar streams and.

P

uh They go to other places and spend their money there, and they could be doing that.

P

Here in cairo county, so I think it's gonna be a great thing. I understand there's friends from the.

P

Neighboring landowners, but I live in mount airy and a lot of other people do too that use those.

P

Trails now and are excited about this, so thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

B

um And I'm gonna go back to bernadette thorne is bernadette thorne on the line.

O

Can you can you hear me now? Yes, this one, this is bernadette thorne. Can you hear me? Yes, yes, okay, hi.

O

Good morning, I'm sorry, I just had some problems with my phone okay, uh I live on greenville road.

O

Right above the um the entrance to the park that you're proposing my main concern, my main concern.

O

Right now is: is safety also um that curve that curve that goes around that bend right? There is.

O

Very dangerous and now you're talking about more people coming on to that parking lot with kids.

O

With kids, horses and the visibility is terrible, somebody had mentioned in the meeting that it was.

O

It was well marked, that's not true, it is not well marked, um it's a very dangerous situation.

O

For people coming in and out of that parking lot and there's going to be more traffic, that's my.

O

First, concern and I want to know how um somebody else had mentioned about the compatibility of.

O

Of hunting and hikers on that trail, especially this time of year, can you address that.

K

uh Yes, for the parking situation, the the trail or sections of the trail are in existence.

K

Currently and people are parking in the road in grenville printville road along that turn,.

K

By pushing the parking area back developing a parking area.

K

Which is actually behind where the gate is currently located.

K

That will give people a safer location to park off of the road. It doesn't make the curve straighter.

A

But it does get those vehicles off of the road and into a safe parking area and again horse trailers.

K

Would not be parking there, they would be parking up by the entrance to the equestrian center.

K

And then you also had a question regarding hunting. Hunting has coexisted with the trail used both in.

K

That area and up in union mills for years so that it's largely a communication effort and.

K

Also, we would need to look at the exact areas that are being used where hunting is allowed.

K

And there will be discussions with the state as far as what those areas are, how they're defined.

K

And then how we notify the public. Currently that's been done with signage at both sides.

O

um Like the gentleman said before me, a lot of people come out of county.

O

People that aren't really familiar with places for hunting and stuff.

O

And and my question is this: I've had hunters over there that people go over there.

O

And they come upon the hunter because you know they're, I guess it's a lottery system.

O

And the hunters have to wear bright, orange and mirror all this stuff, and these other people.

O

Really are not even aware of what's going on over there and they just come. You know come right up.

O

Near the almost near the hunters- and they can barely see him at times, so a lot of people are.

O

Familiar especially, they come out and see it about our our hunting situation. Another thing about the.

O

Safety of that parking lot, just because you push that parking lot back, doesn't mean that curb is.

O

Safe for people coming in and out of that parking lot, especially when you have kids and other things.

O

That are going on there's going to be a lot more, a lot more activity there and people come around.

O

That curve and it's a blind curve, I think, before any parking lot or anything, is done that curve or.

O

Something has to be done to that section to have much better visibility for everybody concerned.

B

Okay, thank you for calling in that's all the callers that I.

B

Have received notifications about, I don't know if there are any others.

H

That's it okay! Thank you, lord thank you for those that called in.

D

Okay, so you're looking for a recommendation from us.

J

Essentially, we're looking for determination from the planning commission.

J

For consistency of, what's proposed with the carroll county master plan,.

A

So um I did prepare a letter if you want to open that up for them. Just so, I can see.

C

David will you do that? Can I go to that? Can we talk about the comment on the road there.

C

When people turn rebuilt yeah, when people come down the road and turn right, is there a? Is there.

C

A deceleration lane proposed to turn into the park there. There is not there's very limited traffic.

K

That would be coming in and out at any given moment. It is very much unlike parts where we.

K

Have ball fields where you have large numbers of people running and leaving at the same time, okay.

A

So um there is a letter of consistency that could be prepared under my signature.

A

For this, and so um the letter states um at its meeting of november 16 2021, the carroll county.

A

Planning and zoning commission was presented with the proposed project for gillis falls park trail.

A

Section one: the commission reviewed the proposal and compared it to the applicable sections of the.

A

Adopted 2014 carroll county master plan, as amended in 2019, especially those relating to chapter 3. The.

A

Vision, statement and goals in chapter 11 parks and concluded these goals support this trail.

A

And then the goals that are listed in your staff report are reiterated in this letter.

A

As well as it also is consistent with the 2017 land, preservation, parks and recreation.

A

Plan which is developed by recreation and parks. So if you all are agreeable to this that letter.

A

Has been prepared, and so we would need a motion to approve that letter and consistency. Okay, maybe.

A

Yes, because because commissioner wayne says here he counts as the quorum, but not.

A

um For the voting but congenitally because there's only three.

A

I don't know, do we know where mr canale stepped off to not sure.

E

Just make a comment: um I'm just in there looking at the greenville road there does the county owned.

E

Any other property on the other side, or it's probably not where they would go in and out.

K

Yeah, yes, it does drop off towards the water and they do get in the wetlands pretty quickly.

K

And then, on the upper side of that entrance, you have a pretty.

E

Significant elevation change, which keeps you up towards your questions,.

E

I can see where it could possibly be a problem looking at it from an aerial map.

E

That it could be that either maybe some speed bumps or you know clearing it out, so people can.

E

See a little bit farther around the corner. If you get some high school, we're driving down the.

E

Road 80 miles an hour coming around the corner and someone's turning them in it could be an issue.

E

Yeah and on the other end, I I assume right now: everyone just parks in the grass at.

E

The ball fields now that a lot of what is in the grass, some of it, is in uh millings.

K

Okay, so we'll be expanding on that.

A

So, um given uh that mr canale has stepped away, we still do have a quorum because of.

A

Commissioner wayne's attendance, I just received an email that there is another caller, a david lewis.

B

Okay for this particular area,.

B

Is there a david lewis line.

I

This is chris uh one caller just left. It might have been him. Okay, all right. Well, then, we're.

A

Going to go ahead and proceed with the rest of this agenda item, um so a vote can occur. However,.

A

We would need commissioner lance to vote if you're able there's no conflict. You won't hear this again.

A

It's just for consistency with the plan, because mrs kirkner can't vote since she's.

A

Chair of this meeting and the only way she would vote if there's a tie on a particular matter.

F

Yeah and I'm fine with that, okay- and I want to be clear- this is about the consistency with the.

F

Master plan- this is in no way saying here, goes the trail and off we, you know we're going to start.

F

Putting bulldozers over there, uh this is about the consistent.

F

The decision about the consistency with the master plan right here- oh here- comes mr canale now, okay,.

A

And this, and that is required by state laws, to have this consistency in why we are doing it.

A

um For this particular effort right so with that, we would need a motion um and, uh and now.

A

Mr cannelli is back in the room, so we can. We can vote now without that issue. Can I have a position.

C

I'll move to prove that the improvements proposed are.

C

In keeping with the consistency of the mastermind.

A

All right, thank you so much that motion carries and I will present mr dickets with the letter. Then. Okay, thank you very much.

F

Hey jeff, why you're on the hot seat? Just for me.

F

uh What's the next steps after this now, just I'm curious, we are still working.

K

Through the permitting process dealing with storm water management and issues like that.

K

We anticipate that we would be at a point where we could get construction drawings drawn up. Hopefully.

K

In the spring, and potentially put this out to bid in the spring, and we continue to incorporate.

K

The information we're getting in comments at these public meetings and and today, whether it's.

K

Improved signage marking the entrance improve communication with hunters and nearby areas.

K

And that's something that can be done both on our website and on the hunting websites.

K

And any of those issues we'll try to incorporate as much of that as possible into the project.

F

Okay, thanks yeah, I think public awareness for hunting is a big thing.

D

My granddaughters run through the woods and I'm like where's something bright because.

D

You don't want to be in there, so okay. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you very much. Thank you.

D

Okay: um next we have the water and sewer fall amendment I think linda.

Q

That was weird.

Q

Good morning, good morning morning, just here.

Q

Last week that I briefed you introduction for the water sewer master plan.

Q

Amendment cycle for the fall cycle.

Q

So, as you may remember, there are three amendments. The freedom central area has one.

Q

Sewer map amendment a westminster water service area has one map amendment as well as a.

Q

Number of tables, and then manchester has both water and sewer amendments.

Q

So first we will look at the freedom area.

Q

This property is right off of liberty, road maryland 26. This is the uh edelsberg exchange.

Q

And this property owner currently is in long range. However, he is his septic system is in the.

Q

Process of needing to be replaced, so he looked at into it and realized the cost to replace.

Q

The septic is about the same amount of money to tie into sewer and since his he has surrounding.

Q

Property owners are currently connected to the sewer service area and he has an easement.

Q

In his deed, with this property owner back here tied into the sewer service, he is requested.

Q

To be included into the sewer service area to tighten the sewer versus having being on septic.

Q

In that aspect, so it's just one dwelling it'll be only adding roughly 250 gallons to the service.

Q

Area which looking at the numbers is a very small amount and the actual table doesn't change at all.

Q

And this is up in this area right here, right below.

Q

Washington road right there so we'll be putting this this portion of that development.

Q

Pretty much all of it now, except will be on on sewer, except for these two properties down.

Q

Here, because the sewer line runs through these properties over to the air awake.

Q

Now for the city of westminster there, this.

Q

Property is the gold property which backs up to stonegate.

Q

And this is um the subdivision that my actual sister brother used to live in.

Q

They are requesting to be removed from the water service area. The property owner has requested he's.

Q

Been in the water service area has no wants of this time to do any development on the property.

Q

As he stated in the letter that he sent, that was part of the original packet.

Q

He sort of he doesn't wanna he's tired of paying the taxes pertaining to the water allocation.

Q

That the he says, the town or the city has requires so removing this property.

Q

Would recoup and take out roughly 7, 300 gallons from the city of westminster.

Q

The question was brought up earlier this, even though these properties are on existing.

Q

Water, they are on subject, so this property would still be able to be developed, but do.

Q

This beyond well and septic, which would be seven lines so there are in essence with no.

Q

No plans to my knowledge ever to put septic in or sorry sewer into that older subdivision.

Q

That this, the city itself did certify last week that this is consistent with their 2009.

Q

Compliment and these two properties are not part of the stonegate subdivision.

Q

This section actually is, but this property is this, is you know it looks like two partials? It is one.

Q

Parcel just split by this portion of the stonegate subdivision, which I believe is mainly going to be.

Q

Made a couple a couple of homes, but mostly it's going to be water, stormwater management, type areas.

Q

Again down here on the main map, you can see just the last section of the.

Q

Water service area for the city of westminster, now going into manchester oh hold on back up.

F

I can't tell on that map we're in the world of stonegate. Stonegate is very it's.

Q

Right off the extension of me, a couple cross streets here- uh old western pike is right up here.

Q

And the extension for center street- that's where 9th street market street would come out right here.

Q

Okay, yeah: it's that whole business community that brand new development.

F

I kept going stone gate my mind, james and I'm like where.

F

Yeah they put a um circle like the traffic store right there. Okay, thank you, okay, thank you.

Q

So this is now the town of manchester. There are four properties in the water service area that.

Q

They are looking to come out and only three properties in the sewer service area.

Q

This portion, right here off of locust street, is a portion of the three russell's llc property, which.

Q

Is currently partly in the town and partly in the county, the portion, that's in the town.

Q

Which is also the portion they're looking to remove from this water and sewer service area.

Q

Is in the process in the beginning stages of potentially putting solar on over those.

Q

That portion of the land, so the town has asked for that portion to be removed and put into long range.

Q

Which would free up allocation potential potentially if it gets approved and also.

Q

Since solar typically never has water and or sewer needs, it will alleviate that aspect.

Q

But the inflation long range allows should down the road way down the road the solar be removed.

Q

And the property- or we want to do something we could move the steps forward to putting.

Q

The temperature back in the service area, if the capacity is there at this point in time, we're.

Q

Moving this particular property, this portion of the property from the sewer and water service area.

Q

And that will free up capacity for the other other portion of of manchester.

Q

This portion is the thomas tree farm on the northern portion of.

Q

Of manchester- and they are, they requested to be removed from the service area.

Q

And they actually, this potential property has the potential for 107 lots and currently they're in.

Q

A future service area they'd like to be put into into long range, which would reduce or.

Q

Reduce the amount of demand by 26, 250 gallons for this particular property.

Q

They are in the process of going into. They apply for act, preservation easement through the county.

Q

In my understanding, helping with the town as well as preservation is some portion of property they'd.

Q

Like to work with the town to put into water recharge for the town for water resource purposes,.

Q

This portion of the property again, this is now this is manchester valley, high.

Q

This is what I call the lippy property, uh but actually it's.

Q

Woodhaven development owns it now. This was the lippie property and this was what was called.

Q

Old town, which is a subdivision that was approved and planted back in about 1974, never built.

Q

So woodhaven building and development has purchased both portions of the property.

Q

And they're looking to put in a total of 40 units, 40 single-family homes, this portion of the of the.

Q

Living property is currently in the store in the water service area and the sewer service area.

Q

So this had this allows for eight eight homes, we're looking to bring in the rest of.

Q

The property and only adding 32 homes total that would be a total demand increase of 8, 000 gallons.

Q

This is a another as another portion, uh a subdivision, that's looking to come in.

Q

Which is the patriots overlook? Peachy tv manchester? You have a highway 27 right here.

Q

Maryland 27.: this is multiple lots, but this portion right here is what is currently.

Q

This was just annexed in this was currently in the town limits, but they are looking to.

Q

What was annexed in was not in the sewer or water service area, so they're looking to bring that in.

Q

So this portion, this actual property for demand, there's 38 laps that are planned, uh 26 lights.

Q

Are already in the service area which includes they have some.

Q

Watch down here- and this is a little split up- this is the main portion that is bringing in.

Q

The rest of it um so it'll be adding 11 lots to the water. The priority water surface area.

Q

Now, looking at the map overall, the locus lane, which is the silver farm, this is the woodhaven.

Q

Development property across manchester valley high: this is a patriots overlook, and then this.

Q

Is the thomas tree farm, so two of them will go to long range, which means their allocation will be.

Q

Removed from the demand tables and then two properties will be coming in or will be added.

Q

So for the water, the net change is actually a. They will be removing 23, 750 gallons from their demand.

Q

For water, you got a quick quick. Can you go back to that slide? Yes, when we do things like this, I mean.

C

um Are there any unintended consequences to this that we're not thinking through.

C

In terms of you know, if this, if manchester wanted to expand and as a designated growth area and.

C

Areas adjacent to these areas that we've we've moved from priority to long range. Have we.

E

Done something that is detrimental to the future growth of manchester. By doing this, well, typically,.

C

No because these were brought to us by the town themselves, so they actually made the request.

Q

So, and with the lucas lane one that was, they came to us and said this is going to go into solar.

Q

Okay, we don't see any reason for that to be in the water and sewer surface area at this time,.

Q

Okay and so moving actually moving a property into long range. It helps with that planning aspect. The.

Q

And you'll see the tables in a minute on a map. It shows long range, which means 10.

Q

Plus years or even longer, when you look at the table, 15 for water table 32 for sewer.

Q

You'll see only three categories are looked into existing priority and future okay, so it stops it.

Q

Futurists, seven years or ten years we don't take into account the long range so mbe has said those.

Q

Numbers don't need to go towards your plant for your demand, because there may be other areas that.

Q

There are sometimes there's towns that have a larger long range for water and sewer that, if.

Q

You took those into account. Their demand would far exceed their capacity, so long range sort of.

Q

Just gives the talons the planning tool of okay should down the road. Our system.

Q

Gets upgraded or we have more water recharge or the same thing things like that. We can then.

Q

Potentially bring them back in it's easier to put somebody into a future or priority service area.

Q

Than it is from long range than it is to put somebody in the service area that was not intended.

Q

At all, without removing somebody got it. So that's great. Thank you for that explanation that helps me.

F

So to follow up on that, yeah bring up an interesting point because we just took this.

F

Up last week, we being the board of commissioners. The thomas street farm was actually in the dga for.

F

Manchester united, they vetted it to the nth degree, because mr thomas wanted to get into ag press.

F

So manchester removed it from the ega to allow mr thomas to go into bagpress.

F

And I'm glad you brought that up because you're suggesting that it goes into long range.

F

Well, if that's in that press, I'm not even sure can it still be put because that's in perpetuity so.

F

Right, why would it be considered long range and that's a good question and my my fault was what.

Q

We may do is when they they do go into the water recharge. We would just cover that and make it.

Q

A water, recharge area versus long range, and I can talk with the town to verify if they really.

Q

Want to leave it in long range for whatever reason which, like you said, is in perpetuity so.

Q

More likely correct, no, never go into it. Okay, um I do know that there was a little carve out section.

F

Yes, sir, that they made on the lower part of that closest to the town of manchester correct.

F

That, I believe, had a well a couple wells on it that future, but I'm not sure there was, but that's.

F

An interesting question because we we're seeing this a little bit more in some of the areas with.

F

Dga versus ag prez versus whatever, and this in this particular incident- we're hemming him in. I.

C

Mean we're you know the city of manchester we're hemming the city in but they're requesting it.

N

Yeah, that's why I said manchester united to the infantry so so to your concern.

F

We see that, but yet it's it's up to the town to say: yeah, okay, we're good yeah yeah! So and it's.

Q

It's one of these things where, when they, when the town of manchester did their 2018 companies have.

Q

Planned prior to 2018, the thomas tree farm was not within their desert growth there in 2018. They I'm.

Q

Not sure if the town decided to expand into that area for the thomas tree farm. If mr thomas came.

Q

For that aspect, I'm not sure so it was put into so prior to 2018. It was not within the growth area.

Q

For the town, the musical growth area, then in 2018 they did put it within the municipal growth area.

Q

Now they're looking to remove in the town, I believe they said they're fine with.

Q

With that aspect of not needing to add any more potential homes- and this helps their the bottom.

Q

Line and we come to the water, because they're removing 23, 000 gallons of demand from the system.

D

I have a curious question, so you have priority and then I forget the next future, um but and then.

D

Long range so we're if we're in the middle group and that's seven to ten.

D

Years, five years down the road, do they or or 10 years down the road? Do they automatically move.

D

Over to priority and then long range move to the middle group, they the only time like long range.

Q

Is by request so the only time somebody moved from a future category into a priority category.

Q

Per se is if they were actually not on water and or sewer, and they decide. Okay, we want to connect.

Q

So it will be brought to us by either the town. If it's a subdivision, let's say a larger subdivision.

Q

Or in the case, for the one that we showed freedom by the landowner, it's by request so.

Q

We don't automatically move something in the only time I would say we automatically move. Somebody.

Q

Is if a property is in priority say a subdivision's any priority.

Q

So, let's just use this aspect right here: the lippy property.

Q

The woodhaven property, which has potential for 40 homes, not potential, that's what they're going to.

Q

Be building if it's shown right now in priority, they may start building homes. Let's say next year,.

Q

But typically, what I don't once those our homes are connected, they're automatically being they're.

Q

Being served, there's that they're being billed but the map and the table we update typically every.

Q

Two years for amendment, but it's the big amendment. However, every three years: that's where every year.

Q

Is twice twice a year we do an amendment, but every three years which we're in the process doing right.

Q

Now this is the trial nail update for the water and sewer master plan. We look at it overall.

Q

That's where I look at it's: okay, now, there's been eight homes built on the woodhaven.

Q

Property, we will move them automatically into existing because their numbers are being.

Q

Their existing numbers are already being accounted for in the data.

Q

But we typically do not move automatically for yes, if you've been in the priority service area, even.

Q

Though it is correct, zero to six years, sometimes it does take longer, but that is a all the.

Q

Solutions are first, come first served so if you're in the zero to six years, even though priority that.

Q

Means you could actually technically hook up today if, if there is the difference, quantity.

D

Okay, that's just a curious question, a good question that helps.

D

Okay, um that's the court man. I mean this is the sewer side of it. So roughly the same thing as.

Q

The water, except for the thomas tree farm, which was not on what was not on sewer at all. There was.

Q

No plant service for sewer it was just water, and that actually goes the commissioner waxes.

Q

Even though they're on the water, they only have, they didn't have septic, so you really couldn't.

Q

Subdivide and have that many lives without you only have seven lives on septic, so that was.

Q

Another reason they looked at and said: well, we don't, we don't have the capacity to put them in.

Q

Into us into the sewer service area, so let's remove at least when we put in long range again.

Q

The town may look at it and say: actually we want to move it to.

Q

No planned service at the trinity or even further down the road. They may just look at and say.

Q

It's not being accounted for. It's in perpetuity.

Q

We just want to make the water recharge and we'll be fine with that or there's nothing at all.

Q

Again, the living wood haven, property.

Q

Same thing, it is adding 800 gal, 8, 000 gallons to the overall demand table here is the.

Q

Patriot overlook again, this is adding 2700 a little over 2, 700 gallons.

Q

So for these three properties, the net change is only adding 2500 gallons to the overall.

Q

Down to manchester demands for sewer and they are in relatively good shape when it comes to.

Q

Capacity and this is the table 15, so the the priority and the priority planning and future.

Q

Planning numbers have been decreased and with westminster, those numbers have been decreased as.

Q

Well, because it is overall, the the properties being removed and no new demand going in.

Q

For the sewer aspect, the freedom numbers, even though they're highlighted.

Q

They didn't move is that 250 gallons is so nominal, then the it didn't move the numbers.

Q

For manchester it again, it increased by 2750 gallons.

Q

With their with the potential of 595, 000 gallons of plant capacity or well in their range of.

Q

Focus of being consistent or compatible with their system, so we've updated the maps, the tables, the.

Q

Town of manchester planning commission certified consistency with their master plan on october 19th.

Q

And the city of westminster last week certified consistency on november, the 11th.

Q

So after today, the next thing I'll actually I'll, be briefing the commissioners.

Q

On thursday morning and request a public hearing for hopefully december, the second.

Q

So those are the next steps from that aspect and then we will have if the public hearing occurs.

Q

In the second decision discussion on the 16th and then before the christmas holidays, we will.

Q

Hopefully, have it sent to nde for their final approval and when it as it comes to amendments.

Q

They are not, they don't do not become effective until mde gets final approval.

Q

So until that time, the previous amendments that were gone will be.

Q

The ones that we look into so what I'm asking for is for the planning commission to recommend.

Q

The that to certify the fall amendment to the water sewer master plan is consistent.

Q

With the 2014 carroll county master plan, amended 2019.

Q

2018 freedom area, cognitive plan, the city of westminster, 2009 2009, comprehensive plan and the.

Q

Town of manchester 2018 comp plan and then four to the board of county commissions for adoption.

D

Okay, do you have that I did we did yeah, I knew we approved and move it forward to the commissions.

C

And state that it's consistent with the plans cited.

D

The second one.

D

Okay, all in favor all right.

D

Okay, thank you. So we have um we have a letter here. If you need a sign today,.

D

Or you need to change it because it says jeffrey um yeah. We can.

A

um We have the letter, it says jeffrey, but mr walters is in here today. So do.

A

We need it signed today. I think we do um we'll work on amending it for.

G

Your signature yeah all right. Okay, thank you. Thank you.

D

Oh, um we have any public comment, not to our knowledge. We didn't.

A

Have to have anyone on the line for that: okay, good, all right.

D

So next on the agenda is the redistricting map submittal.

D

I

If someone could put the virtual environment back on the screen.

H

A

Thank you. So I asked mr burke to be here today because he was um working with the board of.

A

Elections and the redistricting committee for the redistricting math process- this comes on the heels.

A

Of the 2020 census, I thought it would be good just for you all to have a quick update about.

A

What was done, what the maps ended up being submitted and where things stand now and then.

A

The next agenda item will follow up with a quick review, because we do some 2020 census numbers that.

A

We wanted to just share with you this morning. Thank you good morning. Thank you for having.

R

Me it's nice to see you all again. uh Chris. Can we have just the current map up on the screen? Please.

R

I was assigned to assist the carroll county, redistricting commission, in reviewing and.

R

Crafting a new redistricting map, as linda said after each decennial or 10-year census,.

R

State law requires the county commissioners to appoint a redistricting commission.

R

Consisting of three members recommended by the democrat central committee, three members of the.

R

Republican central committee and one member excuse me recommended by the republican central committee.

R

And one member representative requested or suggested by the board of elections, so the.

R

Commission was appointed in the spring of 2021. The mission of the committee was to take a look at the.

R

Current map and apply the new census data and make sure that the current map meets the state law.

R

Which requires you to have a relative, relatively equal population in each district.

R

um As you can see, the current map, which is the focus of much discussion.

R

Was district 2. district 2 after applying the census data was under-populated so that the map.

R

Has to be amended somehow, but that is because district two was under-populated.

R

And you didn't have the equality and districts that's required under the state law.

R

Some other considerations that the commission took into account. This is the redistricting.

R

Commission you want to have compact districts. Somebody should tell the state legislature that.

R

You want to keep your towns preserved. In other words, you don't want splits between the towns and.

R

You want to preserve what are called communities of interest. Those are geographical areas.

R

Such that there are certain political uh interests of the community that are that gel together.

G

They're, not necessarily within a town, boundaries or city boundaries, but they're, just communities.

R

Where there's a common political interest that you want to keep them together as much as possible.

R

And there was one other factor considered, and that was the request of the board of elections.

R

They asked that we keep the precincts as intact as possible and their their thinking was, if you.

R

Start splitting up the precincts you're going to create voter confusion. You know the voters going.

R

To go to one area where they went to voted the last time, and I doubt that the precinct was split.

R

They've been put into another another district, so our board, our commission uh tried to take.

R

That into account try to minimize the splitting of districts to save voter confusion and, in the end.

R

Expense, so they had an organizational meeting in september of 2021, and I want to tell you that the.

R

The whole process was really compact at this time, because normally the decennial census is released.

R

In the spring, or at least yeah early spring, usually so the commission usually will convene.

R

In may and get to the redistricting committee will convene and may start the process and have a bunch.

R

Of meetings well, as you as you know, or you're, going to find out that the census was not released.

R

Until september, so even though the commission was appointed in the spring, there was not much they.

R

Could do absent the the actual census data which did arrive? Thankfully in mid-september I think so.

R

Mid-September things got rolling, they had uh six actual meetings of the commission, uh four of them.

R

Were held at the various locations throughout the county, we we had one at the south carol.

R

Senior center one at the tonytown senior center and I managed to set off the fire alarm there.

R

We had one of the north carolina library and one at the mount. The mount airy senior center and the.

R

Additional two meetings were held here in the county office building in room 003, the public.

R

Attendance was uh was was lukewarm at best, but we had a total of 11 members of the public attend.

R

Any of these meetings with all these meetings together and two of them were representatives.

R

From the board of elections that were there to keep and keep an eye on the precincts pleading so.

R

The consensus of the committee early on was.

R

We need to keep a northwest block and, let's take a look at the the other maps, if you would chris.

R

And you can we'll slowly scroll through them, but the committee was was convinced early on.

R

They wanted to create a northwest block consisting of new windsor.

R

Union bridge and tony town they wanted to keep them together. They considered them to be.

R

A community of interest: in addition, they wanted to join hampstead and manchester together. They.

R

Did not feel that splitting them up, as was done earlier, was a good idea, and they felt that the.

R

Community of hampstead manchester was a community of interest that should be preserved, so what they.

R

Came up with are are a total of five maps and we'll just scroll through them real quickly.

R

Can you see them again all fi, all of them uh created the northwest block, all of them created a.

R

Joined hampstead and manchester together in the end, the committee rejected all the maps except for.

R

A and d and a was finally selected by the redistricting commission as the one there was.

R

There was a lot of polite discussion between the board members at the end between a and d.

R

District 5 under macd would have included century high school map. A does not and the the thinking of.

R

Those who supported map a was at century high school includes a lot of students from mount.

R

Airy, so they didn't feel that that constituted a community of interest. Of course, those supporting.

R

Matt d said it's in there already. We should keep it in there. In the end, the recommendation was map.

R

A so what happens next, the that days was sent to the delegation and the delegation is free to.

R

Consider it only as a recommendation, they can accept it, but they can reject it. They.

R

Can rewrite it and rewrite their own map and, as a matter of fact, we do have one final submission.

R

And that was crafted by delegate krebs and senator reidy. Can you pull that one up chris.

R

They looked at the maps and created their own for consideration, possibly by the delegation and.

R

They're going to discuss that and some other items here tomorrow night in room 003 at uh at a meeting.

R

That's going to be one of the discussion items as to whether the delegation should.

R

Take our the commission's recommendation or or something else something else along these lines.

R

So all this information is up on the county's website. If any of you have any any questions, I'm.

R

Happy to answer them, I also have hard copies. If any of you are suffering from insomnia,.

R

These are hard copies of the commission's report. You can it's much easier to see the.

R

Maps and much easier to see the uh the lines. So that's where we stand with the redistricting.

R

Commission they did a lot of work in a very short time and they are there to be commended for it.

R

So, there's really nothing for the planning commission to do it's just an informational session.

A

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you tim. I appreciate you coming and I'll leave these here.

A

I would like to yes: yes,.

R

Thanks for your attention, yes, sir.

D

Okay, do we have any public comment we'll come at the end, with one more quick little presentation.

A

If that's, okay with you yeah, I just wanted to show you all the census numbers. um So, as tim said,.

A

The census comes first, so we did the 2020 census. A lot of the census. Information was.

A

Given out later than normal because of the pandemic, so we had a um a lengthier time for.

A

The census, so the census is a point in time count wherever you are residing as of april 1st of 2020.

A

That is how we do the count it's supposed to be back that point in time, given the pandemic and.

A

Typically, the count goes through the end of june of that year, given the pandemic, that stretched out.

A

And there was a lot of fits and starts with going to december, then to september then, to october.

A

And then, eventually, it became really october. Was the final deadline to get your cap carroll county.

A

Did extremely well for the self-response rate, meaning carroll county residents responded with.

A

Outdoor knockers coming to get the most complete count possible. We were number one in the state of.

A

Maryland for our self-response rate and I believe, number 20 out of 3 200 counties in the nation for.

A

Our self-response rate, so it was a really great effort by our census committee, so carol's numbers.

A

Are good you know, so we know that that it's all self-response and we didn't have to have a lot of.

A

Door, knocking and things like that, coming back, like some other areas of the state.

A

And the nation and that's important getting us the most accurate count.

A

Possible again, the census is supposed to be complete count. So if you don't respond.

A

People come to you to get a response, so we know who is living and it's really important for this.

A

Body to understand the census numbers, because the census is the basis that demographic information.

A

For how we know where we are as a county and where we can estimate we'll be going in the future, so.

A

I'm just going to really just give you a high level presentation um of the census, information.

A

And this actually was compiled and presented by the baltimore metropolitan council.

A

On their carroll numbers, so how the census data is disseminated, is it comes from.

A

The federal government to the maryland state data center and then the state.

A

Data center under maryland law has to account for, um and I'm probably going to.

A

Get this incorrect, so forgive me incarcerated persons, so they have to go back and re.

A

Apportion the incarcerated persons to where they would reside after.

A

Incarceration to get the correct number, I believe, is how it goes because then you have pockets of.

A

High numbers in areas, for instance, we have a major prison in allegheny county and that skews really.

A

What population is on that in allegheny, because of how they're counted group quarters are counted.

A

In the census and there's various mechanisms to do that, we worked with group quarters here because of.

A

Mcdaniel college and some other facilities that house multiple, unrelated persons so.

A

It was, it was a huge effort by everyone to make sure that we got this complete count.

A

So again, um here's just a little bit of information that um the census data was made.

A

Available august 12th, but that was the legacy data and did not include that incarcerated person's.

A

Reapportionment and then september 16th is when the state re received the more easier to use.

A

Census data and that summary file and that's what tim's group used as well for the redistricting.

A

Committee so again this came from um the jurisdictional level summaries from brtb's.

A

uh Transportation board: we used this information too, for any long-range transportation planning and.

A

That was the reason for the presentation that was given to us that day. So I'm just going to go ahead.

A

And just show you some of the numbers and they did a really nice job capturing all the information.

A

So the data that was released in august was population by race and group quarters population.

A

As well as housing units which are occupied and vacant households.

A

um So you can see the change in population in all of maryland's jurisdictions. The darker, the blue.

A

Color, the more population change occurred during that 10-year time span. um The later the color was.

A

Actually lost in populations, you can see western maryland lost population as well as certain.

A

Counties on the eastern shore and baltimore city- and I believe, baltimore city was the only city.

A

In the nation that actually lost population in the last 10 years, I believe all other cities.

A

Gained in population major metropolitan areas gained population, so carroll county, we did grow.

A

Not as much as some of the other jurisdictions, but we grew by 5 700 new residents in carroll county.

A

Which equates to a 3.4 change um where other jurisdictions so frederick to our west was had.

A

A 16 increase, baltimore and harford county were around 6. Howard was 15.8. So again you know the.

A

Larger counties in that 95 corridor um and around the beltways tended to have more population.

A

Growth percentage than the other jurisdictions baltimore city.

A

Lost 5.7 percent of its population, it has been steadily declining um for many decades now.

A

So um here's the population change from 1970 to 2020, the yellow highlighted, is carroll county.

A

So in 1970 we had about 70 000 people living in carroll county and then each decade, as you can see,.

A

It increased um some significant decades were 80 to 90 and 90 to.

A

2000 but 2000 to 2010 and 10 to 20. We've had a much uh more flattened growth rate, um so.

A

The percent increase overall, as I said, was 3.4 percent or 5700 um new carroll cations.

A

So the average household size again, you know, trends that we pretty much know and we use a.

A

Lot of these trends- and we used this 2.74 number for our last planning efforts for the master plan.

A

And the freedom plan, so back in 70, the average household size was 3.26 persons per household.

A

And has been steadily declining, not only in carroll but in the rest of the state of maryland.

A

And the nation as well um so the most recent census was 2.74. We've readjusted our numbers.

A

To now be around that 2.68 mark for household size and as you can see, we're still above the baltimore.

A

Regions average for total persons per household's average, um but everyone's pretty close to.

A

You know that two plus two and a half mark, so it's really just you- know, tenths of a point. Difference.

A

um So again, total population- this is the entire baltimore region.

A

As you can see going from 1980 to 2020, so in the entire baltimore region, we have about.

A

2.7 million, which grew by 134 000 over this last 10-year period,.

A

As you can see, this is the population by race in origin, and um the baltimore region is increasingly.

A

Becoming diverse, just like the rest of the nation, where 53 make up um white uh families as well as.

A

28 now african american, I mean the next biggest demographic is with the asian population, which.

A

Grew from 4.5 to 6.3 percent in the region, as well as the hispanic population as well.

A

So now um really quickly. We because.

A

The census is a point in time. We also need to know what's going to happen in the future, so we.

A

Do these forecasts and we carroll county planning department, does the forecasts for carroll county.

A

And we provide that on our website and we also use those forecasted numbers.

A

Our liquor board uses them to determine if there are new um licensing requests that are coming.

A

About and if they meet the population threshold to put out a new liquor license for a particular area.

A

As well as we use it for planning applications and things as like that, so we are always updating.

A

Our forecasting and our projections for the future we use use and occupancy perm data that we get.

A

Monthly to estimate with some other multipliers, how many new persons are coming in to the county.

A

And then the census data kind of gives us that reset point every 10 years. So um this is just.

A

The different rounds, so that means when we've updated it based on different things. So each.

A

Jurisdiction provides their own projections, and rounds typically are based on what major policy.

A

Implement implication has happened within your community within your county. um What.

A

Other changes have occurred that would change either population growing or population declining.

A

So um round nine, a which was the most recent round done in early 2020 and before that in 2019.

A

As you can see, we've pretty much we're dead on um to the census a little we anticipated and we.

A

Be in the region anticipate a slate increase with round a, but, as you can see, the round, nine in 2018.

A

For the region was closest to the census, but you can see how we've been up and down up and down.

A

Up and down just kind of just various policies: the great recession, just not knowing how things.

A

Were going to rebound after that, so again, it's it's a crystal ball um that we try to have some.

A

Clarity, but it's a crystal ball nonetheless, so then really quickly with carroll county.

A

um You can see our growth from 1980 to 2020 and again this last 10 year was probably the slowest.

A

Growth rate carroll county has seen um by it was reduction by two-thirds from what it was in 2010.

A

So again, I'm just really a much slower pace of percentage increase in population and again just.

A

Mirroring the rest of the state and the nation carroll county is diversifying in its population.

A

And then again total population, so we were off in our estimates by 2.2 percent.

A

um We had anticipated less growth than we actually received, so in round 9a. We were estimating at.

A

The 2020 census, which is the check that we would have 169 000 persons in carroll, county.

A

And we ended up having 172 000 um with the census, so we were off by 3 600.

A

um You know pretty much. Everyone in the region was plus or minus again. It's not.

A

A perfect science we do the best with the information we have available in front of us.

A

And so carol, as you can see, we've had some real crazy numbers with the various censuses where we.

A

Were down, then we thought we were going to be really up um in the last several years. Really.

A

Since 2013 we've been honing in and have gotten better, actually the closer we've gotten to the.

A

2020 census, uh back prior to the 2010 census, there was an anticipation that carroll county.

A

Was going to be well over 200 000 persons, um but with various policy changes the great recession.

A

And other demographic reasons the population has not achieved and we don't anticipate going over.

A

200 000 for quite some time in the future. So again we were anticipating not even being over 172 000.

A

With this last sentence, that's where we ended up so we've been kind of hovering. You know a little.

A

Bit above and a little bit below and now this is the reset, um so this information was compiled.

A

By sean kimberly, we have this information uh available and this will be the basis of how then.

A

We move forward with our next planning processes um for the county, and that is all are there any.

A

Questions no all right well. Thank you all. Thank you for your patience. I just wanted. I thought it.

A

Was important for you all to understand what what what the new information was.

A

Yes, we appreciate that. Thank you. um Do we have any patio for public comment.

A

Control, do we have any additional callers online? I haven't seen anyone sign up for general public.

A

Comment I'm checking now, but I don't see yeah. We have a caller, that's called in okay.

S

uh This is dave lewis, I'm a bailiff, bailiff, hillard.

S

Circuit court, but I was calling in about the gillis, falls trail.

A

Thank you so that um just want to take comment. That item has already been.

A

Heard and decided with public comment, but I'll leave it up to the chairperson.

A

If she would like to hear additional comments, oh yes, I think okay.

S

Oh okay, very good. My name's dave lewis and my property includes a section of gillis, falls creek.

S

Downstream from your proposed trail, I was a police officer with the maryland park police from 1976 to.

S

2003, my last ten years was as a canine handler the maryland park. Police is a pie county agency.

S

Serving montgomery and prince george's counties, I have 27 years experience working with hyperbiker.

S

Trails down there, pg has 165 miles of pass. Montgomery county has over 250 miles of pass.

S

I also worked for 10 years with the linear trail as a town of sykesville police officer.

S

Some of our paths have low crime rates, typically, the ones that parallel parkways, like beach drive.

S

Which most people know is rock creek, parkway, sligo, creek parkway and little falls parkway.

S

And that's primarily because they're in view of passing patrol cars, we had a lot of problems.

S

With trails that went through wooded areas like your proposed gillis falls trail, we experienced.

S

Indecent exposures, sex assaults, rapes, murders, robberies, marijuana grows, homeless camps and.

S

Underage parties, to name a few, I also handled hundreds of thefts from auto at the parking lots.

S

They know the car will be unattended for a long period of time with the owner out of sight.

S

No matter what you do, people will leave purses and other valuables in their cars.

S

To the equestrians that are involved in this, any improvements like paving to me anyway,.

S

Would degrade the trail riding experience? You have now be prepared for a dramatic.

S

Increase in dirt bike and atv activity and lastly, I want to point out that that whole.

S

Area is a public hunting area catering to a lot of inexperienced hunters from the city.

S

Mixing that with joggers and bicyclists could be a recipe for disaster.

D

Thank you for your comment. Thank you. Are there any other callers.

I

That's all the callers we have all right. Thank you.

N

Okay, linda, I have a question going back to the census data. Is there a.

C

When those of you who are professionals at this get together and you all decide.

C

You know there's a certain growth rate. It is a healthy community, grow growth.

C

You know it's, what would you, what should we be trying trying to to achieve to have healthy growth.

C

What do you think that number is I'm just curious? It's not a quiz, I just kind of want to know. Do you.

C

Think that number's a good number should we be a little higher? Should we be a little lower? What.

C

What do you think it is? um I mean it really just depends on what the community wants. The community.

A

To be what the elected officials, what what the people you know do we want a county, I mean it's.

I

Very subjective, you know some people may think less growth is a healthy community. Some people may.

A

Think a lot more growth is a healthy community. um I mean, I will say it's harder to plan for.

A

A community that's losing population and gaining population, because you've built your community for.

A

A certain number and then now you've gone below that number carol is not that we have a positive.

A

Birth trajectory still- and I think it you know- I mean- there's no magic number or bullet just really.

A

Depends on what the vision is for carol. I was just curious. If you know the commission had an idea.

C

Because again this we can outpace our budget, which we don't want to do. That's that's. That's one of.

C

My big concerns, but then again you know. Growth in general, I think, is a good thing. But again you know.

C

Too much of anything is a bad thing, so I was just curious what your thoughts were on that, because.

C

You know when you look at frederick those numbers. Are you know? That's staggering, I mean you know.

C

When you get up in the teens, that's a number, I wouldn't want to be there at all, but I would I.

C

Was just curious what we were thinking as a county, but what the aspiration is do we have a do? We have.

C

An idea of what that is, and what what do we, as a planning and zoning commission, need to be doing.

C

To foster that to to help hit that number I don't know, I don't know what the answer is.

C

You know somebody brighter than me needs to do it, but I just thought I'd ask what you thought.

F

It's excellent thoughts. Pete, I don't know what the answer is: either we've never really married.

F

Our delegate balance of growth here to a number uh you know, I agree with you for those of us that.

F

Are back and forth to frederick a good bit, there's no question that they've exceeded infrastructure.

F

uh Versus their growth, if you've traveled up there matt, I know you've been up there. People.

F

Up there you know you're close there, you know the roads up. There are crazy.

F

Yeah over overcrowded, I look at the best way to avoid going so so there's that yeah.

D

But aren't they the largest county myth, I think when we took that course in terms of led area.

D

Yes, yeah, I think they are so right. I think one would expect they would have more growth, yeah.

F

You could you could look at that. I mean there's so many aspects up there. I don't know how.

F

Matt, I don't know if you've been between tawnytown.

F

And walkersville, but the amount of farms up there that have gone out, in other words,.

F

Perhaps they're leasing up their mat. You know better than me, probably, but.

F

You know there's some dilapidated uh farms up there that just aren't doing anything anymore.

F

Yeah, but it's still not the major reporter I mean really 194. You know balance they're in the store.

E

Around 194 and they closed it because there was no, it was computer traffic, it wasn't people driving.

E

It's all business traffic, it's not really. You know so yeah. Now you get one 26 well yeah and you get.

E

The liberty, town and I'll make a left and go after the 70, because I would just rather avoid going in.

E

Towards searsville, because it's a mess, I think it's worth you know not a manhattan project type.

C

Conversation, but um I think it's worth having a target that we manage to.

C

And if we exceed it then move you know we did too much and then you know if you're under it.

G

Well, you know, that's not healthy for the citizens either. So I think it's good to first to give that.

C

Some thought as to you know, because growth I'd like to see our county grow again. I don't want.

C

To outpace anything, so I think it's worth you know thinking through um you know I don't know.

C

You know the federal reserve's trying to hit a certain inflation rate. You know.

C

You know too much of that. This is a good thing. Deflation! No, no one wants that. You don't want.

C

Hyper, don't want deflation again, birth, wise. Is it two? Is it three? Is it four? Is it eight.

C

I don't know I mean eight sounds high to me, but you know again when you know I'm.

C

The guy that's always out of step up here and I need to shut up again exactly, but but the.

C

The when you see the other counties growing at those rates, you kind of have to wonder. Okay,.

C

Well, you know, is this good or bad and I happen to think you know: we've got a beautiful county.

C

And we're doing some doing a lot of things right, but I think it's worth asking the question.

F

I think it's a valid point. I agree. I do too from a real estate point. I mean we've. Definitely.

D

Been growing more than we had in the past, so I don't know the answer. um I.

D

Mean certainly some of it is the growth areas that we look at and they aren't designed for.

D

Future growth but then, of course, it's a balance with the community what they are.

D

Saying they do or don't want, that's right. So it's a question for another day. So if.

D

I I do notice that over here it says the next meeting is wednesday november 3rd.

D

A

So the agenda has been revised. It should say that on the agenda, well probably the other side.

A

It does december the 1st at 6 pm and that's a virtual meeting.

A

A

A