Carroll County, MD Carroll County Planning and Zoning Commission, 8 Dec 2020

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From YouTube: Carroll County Comprehensive Rezoning- Board of County Commissioners Work Session December 8, 2020

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https://www.carrollcountymd.gov/government/commissioners/board-of-carroll-county-commissioners-weekly-agenda/

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Okay, good morning, everyone december, the 8th and today is a work session for us.

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As we continue, excuse me, as we continue uh our work on the comprehensive rezoning commercial.

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Industrial and employment campus districts, so um we um trust everyone had a good good evening. Last.

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Night got some very positive comments on our abbreviated and uh I guess you could call it a.

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Hybrid christmas, uh uh bringing in the the holiday season so appreciate all the everybody showing up.

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And appreciate staff that were there, so uh thank you to everybody and we'll we'll hit on that more.

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On our regular session on thursday morning, uh but today is is uh a continued work session.

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And uh without further ado to get through this uh linda, you were on here. I assume you still are.

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We, you disappeared from us and there she is I'm going to turn it immediately right over.

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To you to get us started in this morning's work session, all right well good morning, commissioners,.

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Today is our first work session post, the public hearing that was held on thursday december 3rd.

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And we're going to review with you just where we've been with this whole process,.

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And a game plan moving forward to help you make decisions on the comprehensive.

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Reasoning of these properties so again we're here to talk about the by request for the.

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Commercial, industrial and employment campus so just um going over a little bit of the process.

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Samir, if you can cheer to the next slide, please I'm working on that hold on a second, it's up.

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So we began this process in january of 2020 for the buy request right after.

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You adopted the commercial, industrial and employment campus text and we accepted.

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Applications from interested property owners, so again this wasn't us rezoning properties. It was.

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Us asking those who wanted to be, in conformance with the master plan, to submit application.

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Then once we received all the applications in january and february, we closed that process.

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And in march, through june of 2020, the planning department worked on detailed staff reports and.

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Also sent out the reports for agency commons, so we worked with our public works. We worked with.

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Ems, our emergency services. We worked with our land and resource management to review.

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Those detailed stock reports which you have been given and you have in your binder of materials.

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In june, the staff reports and the staff recommendation was presented.

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To the planning and zoning commission and it on our carol, rezoning dot, org website.

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That was a very lengthy process with the planning commission. We had several work sessions through.

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The months of july, through october, as you can see from the slide we had in total seven commissioner.

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Ross team was very integral in those meetings, as we went through all of the now 28 properties. We.

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Had several properties drop out throughout the process, we mailed letters to adjoining property.

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Owners and other interested parties to make them aware of the possible changes in their community.

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For the rezoning, as well as we ended up posting the properties about 30 days ahead of the public.

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Hearing in early october, those recommendations, as you all are aware, were forwarded to you.

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The board of county commissioners, then, for your review and the first thing that we started with.

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The board was october 29th having a listening session, and that was for you to get the initial.

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Comments from the community, so this was not necessarily a public hearing, but it was very.

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Much like a public hearing type format, then we held three work sessions where you all we went.

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Through each property and its staff report in detail- and this culminated with the final public.

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Hearing on december 3rd, which you all just had on thursday and now the public record is closed.

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So we're accepting no uh we're not accepting comments any longer on this buy request. So if we.

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Can go to the next slide um so today, what we're going to talk about was obviously this process.

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And then I have jim allman, who is our new assistant county attorney, to talk about two cases.

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That have come up in maryland in calvert and queen anne's county to discuss legal precedence within.

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Comprehensive rezonings and comprehensive plans just to make you aware um some of it's relevant.

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To what we're talking about, I just think you'll find it insightful, as you make your decisions.

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We'll review again what is spot zoning? We had a lot of comments and questions come up.

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That the community, as they may comment, said that this was a zoning map amendment and that change.

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Your mistake needed to be proven and that's not the case, we're doing a comprehensive rezoning.

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And also there was uh some discussion about spot zoning, so I just want to make again clear.

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What those two things are and what we're doing here and how this process is completely different,.

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Again talk about non-conforming uses, then what we have done is gone through the.

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List of those 28 properties- and I want to share 11 properties with you today, for you all to have.

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Further discussion and what I'm trying to do is break it down for you on properties that.

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It might be an easier decision for you all to make on how to move forward their properties.

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That were consistent with the plan had a favorable planning commission recommendation and we received.

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Either only positive comments or no comments at all, so I feel these would be good warmer uppers.

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For you all to have a discussion on and then we'll talk about the next steps to get through.

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The remaining properties and future work sessions we have scheduled with you all to move forward.

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um So with that, I'm going to go to the next slide and have jim just discuss with you the two most.

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Recent cases in queen anne's county, where the resigning requests were not consistent with the.

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Comprehensive plan- and there was a challenge as well as calvert county, um their comprehensive plan.

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Was being challenged, um but the challenges did not deal with the consistency requirements in the.

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Main use article, but there was some ethical and notice concerns again. Nothing really pertains to.

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Us specifically, but these will help you in you and you making your future decisions so with that, I'm.

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Going to go ahead and turn it over to jim. Just to give you a quick briefing on these two most.

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Recent cases I mean literally recent in the last few months cases so jim yes, uh thank you linda and.

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Good morning, uh commissioner, so as linda said, she asked me to look into these cases just um for your.

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Benefit- and it's just something um I think um is important to be mindful of so I'll- just get right.

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Into the um the queen anne's county case, because that um is kind of the more substantive case um so.

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That case, um it actually comes out of the 2010 um queen anne's county, comprehensive plan and.

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um In a very similar process to this, the county, um queen anne's county, adopted a comprehensive zoning.

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Ordinance and the ordinance covered 11 properties and um the planning commission recommended.

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um Against rezoning of for the 11 properties as um contrary to the master plan,.

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Essentially, the planning um commission thought that um these properties, which were um in rural.

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And permanently preserved land, which is very similar to our conservation and ag districts.

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Were being rezoned to um or proposed to be rezoned to higher densities, and they saw that.

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As contrary to the uh the comprehensive plan, so they recommended against it. Nevertheless, the.

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uh Queen and county board of commissioners um voted by a three to two vote to approve them.

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And um so the four properties go like this, and it's just a little important to understand this.

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So one was a 216 acre property rezoned from agriculture to light industrial highway again.

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Our agriculture um code and their agriculture code are very similar. um The second property was an 80.

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Acre property that was rezoned from countryside, which is similar to our conservation district.

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To neighborhood village center, which um in queen anne's county, is sort of like a mixed use.

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um It would best be comparable, I think, to our lower medium commercial districts.

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um And then there was a third property um where 31 acres um of a 173 acre property was re-zoned from.

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Agriculture to suburban commercial and um the remaining 142 acres were rezoned to suburban.

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Estate, which is comparable to our residential forty thousand or twenty thousand districts.

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And then the final fourth property was rezoned from agriculture to suburban um commercial.

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So um after the uh florida county commissioners um voted to approve.

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um These rezonings um four environmental groups and 14 residents filed suit, claiming that the four.

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Properties were inconsistent with the county's comprehensive plan and sought a declaratory.

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Judgment which is essentially a ruling from the court that um the board of county commissioners.

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Acted beyond its authority and that the reasonings were inconsistent with the comprehensive plan.

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Now I want to stress that this case did not go to trial and um the decision of the court was.

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On um complete procedural grounds, which is important to keep in mind.

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So there were no facts in dispute because the um the commissioners passed an ordinance, so the.

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Plaintiff saw um what is known as summary judgment and that's basically an argument that there are no.

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um There are not enough facts to create a genuine dispute and that the court should just make a.

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Decision based on the law which um the plaintiffs were arguing just based on the land, use article.

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And the county's comprehensive plan, what the board of commissioners did was inconsistent.

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um The board of commissioners moved to dismiss and, in the alternative summary judgment, arguing that.

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It had wide discretion um in the legislative act of rezoning, so it's important to keep that in mind.

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um So the two issues they just the court looked at when deciding um on those procedural grounds.

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Was whether the board of commissioners acted within their legal boundaries as to the rezoning.

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Of the 260 or 216 acre, I'm sorry property from agriculture to light industrial highway and that.

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Had less to do with consistency from the master plan to sort of a quirk with queen anne's county.

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In queen anne's county, um there is um zoning along key intersections of 301 um and that the.

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What is allowed in those zones is very specific and um based on the county code, you cannot go out.

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Of uh the uses that are allowed in that zone and the um the commissioners voted to do so on.

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The court said that in doing that, they acted beyond their authority and this.

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Was just um purely something very specific to a very specific zone in queen anne's county.

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The other three rezonings that the board of county commissioners approved, however, um had to.

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Do with uh consistency which is more important for um for us here, so moving on to that, the.

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Second, the court argued that earth the court held basically that the rezoning of the three.

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Properties from um agriculture to conservation to higher densities was um not consistent with the.

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Master plan, which created um a kind of dispute of facts which would lead to trial the border county.

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Commissioners, ultimately um got out of this case, but the court held that um that there was.

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um A genuine dispute of fact, and basically what the court was saying, was that.

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Here that um the action was comprehensive, but the court was concerned that um these particular.

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Actions, kind of smelled of um spot zoning had the appearance of spot zoning rather than a.

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Comprehensive rezoning process and for a rezoning process to pass muster, it must be consistent.

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With the comprehensive plan, which means that the ordinance will quote further and not be contrary,.

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To seven criteria enumerated in the um land use article, which is the consistency, requirements and.

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Those um those factors include and I'll just read, the entire um section is that to have consistency.

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With a comprehensive plan, the term shall mean an action that will further and not be contrary to.

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The following items in the plan policies: timing of implementation of the plan, timing of development.

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Timing of rezoning development patterns, land uses and densities and intensities.

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So the court concluded based on this reasoning, that the board of county commissioners.

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Did not adequately demonstrate or set forth enough facts in their findings to show.

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That they actually address the consistency, requirements of the land use article um so.

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um And just to back up here, there's another um interesting quirk in the queen anne's county code.

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That um that the board of commissioners was arguing that his actions by being.

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Comprehensive were not required to follow this provision um that applied only to map amendments.

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And required the board of commissioners to make determinations based on specific facts.

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Contained in the record um that a substantial change had occurred in the character of the.

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Neighborhood, where the property is located or a mistake in the existing uh zoning classification.

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Had occurred, the board of commissioners argued that comprehensive zoning, on the other hand, did.

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Not require the um to have such findings, provided that the math amendments were consistent with.

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The goals and purposes of the comprehensive plan the court disagreed and said that the.

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That the board of commissioners had to um demonstrate in some way.

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And set forth facts to show that they address the consistency, requirements.

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um Of the land use article so as for what this means for carroll county basically, is that.

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There's no similar provision in our county code requiring the commissioners to find.

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Any findings or adequately address the consistency requirements. It would be a good idea, but it's not.

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Required when considering the um adopting rezoning, therefore, the county commissioners may choose to.

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Go against any recommendations from the planning commission, but they can only do so as long as the.

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Action is consistent or has consistency with the comprehensive plan, which is to say it's not.

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Contrary to the comprehensive plan, for example um like a rezoning in an ag district, that would allow.

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You know high-rise buildings or something along um something along those lines. um So, as I said, the.

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Board of county commissioners um in queen anne's county kind of dropped the case um because they.

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Thought that expending further dollars and legal effort to what they to uphold earlier rezoning.

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On for farm properties um from agriculture to commercial residential were not warranted.

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So um that's basically what the queen and county uh code was about that the commissioners are.

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Required to um to stay consistent with the comprehensive plan and they can't go outside.

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Or do anything contrary to that consistency within the comprehensive plan and that they.

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Should be able to show adequately show some facts proving that their zoning decisions.

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Their rezoning decisions are consistent with the comprehensive plan and then, as.

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Linda mentioned, there were two cases in coward county that don't deal with um the comprehensive.

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Plan being challenged on consistency grounds, but are nevertheless um important, because they they.

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Deal with ethical and notice um issues, so one of the cases dealt with the issue of a member.

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Of the calvert county board of commissioners uh voted to approve the county's comprehensive plan.

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um And it was alleged that he had a conflict of interest, because that, commissioner, allegedly.

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Owned land or had some sort of interest in land that was being affected by the comprehensive plan.

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um The plaintiff sued um the county commissioners and sought a declaratory judgment.

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To set the entire comprehensive plan aside, they were arguing essentially that.

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The calvert county commissioners have what amounts to a line item veto and they should have removed.

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The relevant properties that they thought there was a alleged conflict of interest in.

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um The capital county uh court disagreed and dismissed the case uh as basically.

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Had they uh no merit um that they couldn't find any conflict of interest and that it being.

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A comprehensive plan it covered the entire county, not just one sort of specific property. um The.

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Second case in calvary county uh dealt with the issue of town center plans in calvary county, which.

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Is sort of specific to that county, um the calvary county, uh comprehensive plan and acting ordinance.

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uh Provided that a comprehensive plan superseded the county's town center plans and plaintiffs.

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Filed a preliminary injunction against the implementation of the larger comprehensive plan.

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On the basis that it was illegally enacted due to issues of notice now um this case has not yet.

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Been tried in front of a judge on any uh substantive or procedural grounds. However,.

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With conversations with the calvary county, attorney's office, they're not concerned.

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At all, with this case and expected to be dismissed, as was the uh the other case uh with calvary.

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County, so I think the um the big takeaways for the members, the commissioners is that.

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Basically, when considering the rezoning and all the properties that you will be considering.

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In the future, just to keep in mind that it um that those rezonings have to be consistent.

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With um with the county's comprehensive plan, and if um the rezonings are not consistent with the.

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Comprehension plan it opens up the county to um uh sort of litigation exposure which.

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We want to avoid not only and more importantly, though, um you want the comprehensive plan.

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um To show you know a strong, thoughtful, well-thought-out um zoning throughout the county.

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So um that's why the courts and the state law really pounds um on the importance of.

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um Consistency and linda- and I and mr burke just wanted uh the commissioners just to be.

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Aware of that, um as we move into the next process um or the next step in this process,.

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And with that, I'm finished and I'd be happy to answer any questions or concerns. You may have.

E

Mr allman, thank you very much for that presentation. It's what I was looking for.

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So basically, you're telling us that all the non-conforming properties out there.

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Right now have no legal chance of getting through court to be changed to be conforming.

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Right well, non-conforming, that's different, so non-conforming as long as it's a legal use.

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There'll, be those properties will be okay,.

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The issue um that the court confronted in the carroll county case was there were properties.

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That were um in the comprehensive plan zone for ag and um permanently preserved areas.

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And the county commissioners uh voted to rezone those in higher densities that one against.

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That kind of sort of agriculture and land preservation objective in the um comprehensive.

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Plan so and basically found that that wasn't consistent with the comprehensive plan. So that's.

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What the court addressed the uh in queen anne's county, they didn't um directly address the issue.

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Of non-conforming uses um and as long as a non-conforming use is um legal um and.

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Meets the requirements of our county code, then um it's fine moving forward past this. um Our rezoning.

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Has their legal department gone through all these proposed amendments or rezoning proposals.

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And like blacklisted a potential that we lose on these properties, I mean I like.

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To know going into these votes, which ones have precedence to be overturned.

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Because I don't want us to be jammed up in legal cases where we're definitely going to lose. I'm.

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All about case law and precedence and if there's precedence out there for all these decisions, we.

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Make get kicked out. I don't want to waste their time going down that road wasting the county's.

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Money on this, we should know ahead of time going into this by our legal department, which cases.

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Would fail if we approve them and I'd love to see that list? I we will work on that and.

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And get that to you as soon as possible and before you make any decisions on.

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The rezoning, but again I think it's just important that um for the commissioners just to understand.

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That um you have a lot of deference with the courts, the courts don't want to do. Zoning.

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They leave that to the local government, specifically the local legislative bodies,.

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So the court- if, if I can step in here, I think we'll stop it there. uh I think we're going down.

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A path here that we don't need to go down at this point, uh and I would like to leave the the legal.

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The legal opinion and language just here and then move forward with our process.

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As far as we're all concerned- and we've done this uh better than anybody and we we've.

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We've vetted this to the nth degree, so we appreciate the opinion, uh but I think we.

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Need to just we need to just stop there and if there are specific questions we can get into that.

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uh On a more personal level, moving forward, if that's okay with everyone- and I do appreciate your.

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Your looking into those jim, thank you very much and um I'd like to just move forward.

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Now, if we can so linda, can we turn it over to you absolutely jim? Thank you so much again, we.

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Just wanted to put in context, um you know, as we move forward so again, just to reiterate.

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What a zoning map amendment is, or you've also heard it referred to as a piecemeal rezoning.

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This is much different than the comprehensive planning process. This is when a property owner.

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Or contract purchaser is requesting a change in the zoning based on either the finding of.

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Change in the character of the community unforeseen by the plan or a mistake in the.

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Original zoning you've seen these come before you in the past. We haven't had one in quite some time.

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um But these are much different than a comprehensive rezoning effort. I know we've heard.

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That discussed, sometimes you haven't seen enough evidence demonstrated where there was a change in.

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The area- that's not necessarily the case needed because we were doing plan implementation with.

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The comprehensive reason zoning, so the petitioner or requester does not need to demonstrate or prove.

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Change or mistake in any of the cases that you have before you can go to the next slide. Please.

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And again spot zoning- you heard jim mention- um and this is a legal term and spot zoning.

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Is not allowed in the state of maryland, it is the process of singling out a specific piece of.

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Land for a zoning classification different from the surrounding community- that's not.

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Consistent with the plan, and that truly is for the benefit or the detriment of the property.

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Owner specifically, so, for instance, if we had a piece of property they're coming through, they.

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Just want to be requested because they want to improve the value of their land. Let's just say.

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And you were to reason that property it could be challenged as a spot zone, especially if it's.

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Something that is not consistent with the plan um moving forward. So again, it is really as the.

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Slide says the antithesis of planning and zoning when considering a spot zoning, the.

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Ports would generally determine whether the zoning relates to the compatibility of the zoning and the.

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Surrounding uses so again, something to be aware of you know some of the properties because of how we.

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Moved forward with the comprehensive reasoning we allowed properties to come forward that were.

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Not necessarily a hundred percent consistent with the plan and consistency was determined.

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By the planning, commission and the recommendations moving them forward to you, so we do have.

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Some properties that you know could fall into that area. You can go to the next slide. Please.

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And then finally, we've heard a lot of non-conforming uses so basically a.

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Non-Conforming use is a legal use. Carroll county has a very permissive non-conforming use code.

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As you recall, when we were working on the commercial, industrial and employment campus.

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You, the board of county commissioners, actually even extended the length of time.

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That a non-conforming use can remain inactive from two to three years now, so we have a very.

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Long period where something can remain inactive as a non-conforming use and still remain retain their.

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Non-Conforming use standard so basically, just to reiterate these are legal uses prior to the.

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Regulations of zoning in carroll county, many of the properties that you see that have come before.

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You through this process are legal non-conforming uses this zoning would not. It would rezone these.

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Properties, but not resenting them is not to their detriment. They are still allowed to be.

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Operating in the manner in which they're operating in currently um so I don't want to go over the.

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Whole slide with you, but you can see you know. These are exactly what the non-conforming uses.

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Are that they can continue indefinitely and does not as long as they don't cease operation for 24.

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Months with a possible 12-month extension again that was added to the code last year.

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um And, unlike some jurisdictions, non-conforming uses may be transferred to another.

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Property owner, so it travels with the property, not the owner of the business, not the property owner.

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um And the historic use of the property which you'll hear um throughout some of the discussion.

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From I, I apologize say that last comment again about the non-conforming use travels with.

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The property with the property, not the property owner or the business itself. So if the property.

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Has a non-conforming use and then they sell and then someone else purchases it and they.

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Want to open up that same business or a similar business, they can do that that non-conforming use.

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Sticks with the property, that's correct, I just the first time it just wasn't very clear but good deal.

F

Thanks um and again you know historic use of the property is not a planning concept. So just because.

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Something is a non-conforming. Nuisance has been, let's say, an industrial type of business since.

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1965 does not necessarily mean it should convert over to industrial zoning, depending on where it's.

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Located: that's why we have the planning process which contemplates that, as we review our plans.

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With the planning commission and then the board of county commissioners adopts these plans.

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We are looking at all of those properties in that comprehensive fashion, so identifying them at that.

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Time, whether they should be converted or not to an industrial or commercial or some other type of use,.

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Would have happened during that comprehensive planning process so again just going back and.

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Saying well, it's always been this way. It does not necessarily make it so that you have to feel.

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Compelled to re-zone that property in accordance with its use. Let me know the next slide. Please.

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So again, a key point which jim has said- and you know various case law and maryland law just again.

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Keep in mind as we review this rezoning should be consistent with the policies and land use.

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Designations sent out in the comprehensive plan, the properties that we forwarded to you um within.

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The staff reports we say whether or not it's consistent with the plan and then how planning.

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Commission found its findings of consistency to help you through this process. So just.

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Keep that in mind and again I think, as jim had said, you know if there's something that you feel.

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Me with the planning commission missed and you feel it is consistent with the plan we will have.

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Those discussions and and make those consistency judgments um as you move forward in this process,.

B

Next slide, please so a question on that process linda, uh I I I am here to assume that planning and.

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Zoning would always would would already have have made the uh that decision, that it was consistent.

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Isn't that their job? That's not our job! Well, they haven't done that, but maybe there's something you.

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Feel might be a little bit different and you see it with a different eye. As far as consistency goes.

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But yes, they have done that and forwarded that to you. Okay, go ahead! I'm sorry! Well I understand that.

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But I don't want to get into uh you know whose opinion is right when it comes to consistency.

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With the master plan, that's not what we're here to do. We we we put that board in place.

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And it's been in place for years to make that decision before it gets to our level.

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Or am I wrong about that ed? I didn't mean to interrupt you, but well it's actually. It's a.

F

It's a perfect segue into a couple comments I want to make before, and this is perfect timing. um First.

F

Off the planning uh team under linda and then also the planning commission did just an outstanding.

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uh Job in getting us to where we are today, the seven work sessions from a planning commission.

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They were focused on the recommendations were not to be political whatsoever. They were they.

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Were to be objective using the master plan and the comprehensive rezoning plans that we have in place.

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They were also focused to be on county-wide development, and the key word also we've heard.

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A lot was consistency, so they were looking they being the planning uh commission.

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We're looking at all the maps we're looking at the infrastructure in place.

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And was it consistent at this time today for it to be rezoned, yes or no? Now we have a much wider.

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uh Level of discretion in making the decisions we do have the ability to be subjective in making our.

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Decisions moving forward um the interpretations that the planning division and the planning.

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Commission or directorate and the planning commission sometimes didn't see eye to eye.

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Because they were doing their own analysis and determined that it was either non-consistent or.

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Consistent, so that's why there are a few that there was conflict between the two um now we're.

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Not here to mediate between those two we're here to make decisions at the end of the day, uh with.

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All of that information, um but I was I was very impressed, especially the last work session. We had.

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With the planning commission, a few comments that came out from dan and cynthia were.

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There, the importance of not being political, the importance of the commission being there.

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And looking at it very objective uh in the pieces of property, we may not see it that way.

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And that's where we're gonna have these discussions um and that's why I've always said you.

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Know just because you can doesn't mean you should, is the timing appropriate for the rezoning or.

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For you know whatever we may decide, those are all pieces that we're going to come into play, but.

F

You're you're, absolutely right steve and I apologize being long-winded.

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But you're absolutely right that the planning commission and the and our county government.

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Has already looked at the master plan, the comprehensive plans and have made determinations.

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On whether they are consistent, non-consistent and recommendations are moving forward with.

F

Approval or non-approval to us, so I I hope that kind of clears up a little bit for you.

F

Yeah, it does ed, and I appreciate that and uh with all due respect to the to the legal advice too and.

A

I appreciate you know jim looking into those two cases, but let's be clear here. Those two counties.

A

Okay, with all due respect, let me point that out again did their process all wrong.

A

And they're the the the transparency and all the things that they did leading up to their.

A

uh Decisions were, for the most part wrong and and inconsistent with their process, so I think that.

A

Needs to be pointed out to here too uh we're I I I I would I I would love to to find a county and.

A

This is out of respect for our planning department and our planning and zoning. I would, I think, you'd.

A

Be hard-pressed to find a county that has had the amount of work sessions and the amount of of.

A

Review and everything that we've done here I want to make that very clear here, because I want to get.

A

We're starting down a rabbit hole here and I don't want to get down in that rabbit, hole.

A

So I I think that needs to be made clear here. We've done it, unlike anyone else, and I that that.

A

I just want to tap that on to what ed's comments were here, so that there's no confusion here.

A

We kind of with all due respect, I think we kind of set the stage just a tad bit.

A

Mistaken this morning, so I want those facts to come out. Thanks.

B

So what I have before you is a property list of the first nine properties um for your review.

B

I selected these properties based on that they have a favorable staff recommendation.

B

A favorable planning commission recommendation are consistent with the plan for the area and just to.

B

Clarify consistency was determined in two ways by planning, commission and staff. Did it meet the.

B

Goals and objectives of the plan for the area and or is it consistent with the land use designation.

B

As determined on in the various plans- and the reason I say that is, is because some of.

B

The requests were not necessarily a one for one with the land use designation, but it really did.

B

Meet the goals and objectives for to further the comprehensive plan area in which that particular.

B

Property lies, so those were the the main driving factors um in the.

B

Compilation of this list also that there were no controversial comments for these requests.

B

So these were some of the ones that really um you know for your consideration. Maybe.

B

Some of the easier discussions that you have as we move through this process.

B

So, just to go over again what these properties are. The first property was i21420203. This applicant.

B

Was michael wedikin and the request was ag to i2. This was designated in the 2014 carroll.

B

County comprehensive plan and it matches with the remaining i2 in that particular corridor. It is 5.5.

B

Acres and both staff and planning commission gave this a favorable recommendation again. All of this.

B

Information, you do have in your booklet as well as this presentation that I forwarded to you as well.

A

Okay, so as a matter of process here, I need to stop and asked if, if what's your intent here,.

A

Because we've been over these properties like how many times now absolutely it's your intent for us.

A

Now, to just make a decision on these 11 or and and if that is the case or my colleagues ready to make.

A

The decision on these 11 properties uh is: is there any need to go over any of the comments that were.

A

Made or comments that were not made, or we didn't hear before we get into it. I just don't. I don't.

A

Want to get ahead here, because we really haven't made a decision on how we're going to move forward.

A

So I just I'm not sure what the intent is here is. Are we ready to vote on these.

A

Or what I'm I'm a little bit, I want to hear from everybody first before we jump.

G

Well, all right, since I lit up first I'll, speak first on that one um I I think would be beneficial.

G

If he went through these properties that are listed one at a time and we talk habits, draw.

G

Whole or what we think about whether we should approve or not approve, if we're all in agreement.

G

Then it's a no-brainer. We can move ahead. If we're not, then either we stop for today and discuss.

G

The properties that we're not an agreement on or we decide to look at them again later.

G

But I think, if you know taking a straw poll up front, I think would be how quick in the process.

G

Basically, if we we've all done our due diligence and looked at this and looked at the comments and.

G

So forth for all agreement on it, then we've got it. We can move on to the next property for not.

G

Discuss it now or discuss it later, that's up to you know you guys, but how you want to do that. One.

F

So dennis, are you saying start from the very beginning, not the list that linda's talking about.

F

um Or what no? We could start we could take the list. Linda. Has I mean that's.

G

That's what was prepared for today and according to her it's the easy ones.

G

With easy and we can work our way to more difficult ones: okay,.

E

But I'd like to hear real quickly from legal counsel, whether this is acceptable.

E

That we're not in violation of processes.

A

I think we've already heard uh eric we're, not that that's that's why I wanted to just I wanted.

A

To be clear about what we heard this morning, in that briefing we we are not uh in any there's.

A

No there's we have there's no violation here at all. I just none. I understand that by me. As far as.

E

Directly what commissioner fraser just suggested specifically like going through a vote on some of.

E

These today is that acceptable, or would it be and we be in advance of public hearings- I just want to.

E

Make sure this procedure is acceptable. uh Listen, I I can't be any more clear enough on our process.

A

Again, we we've done it. Unlike anyone else. uh Are you suggesting we have another public hearing.

A

I'm not I'm unclear here, because we we've we've done this at nauseum.

E

I'm not I'm just stating I'd like to move forward. I just want to make sure we got the blessing and.

E

Then move forward, I think we're blessed, so I can make a suggestion. This is what planning commission.

B

Did I think it worked very well and I think could work well for your commission. Your board.

B

Is do a provisional vote or provisional decision and what we will do an open session when you're.

B

Ready to forward all the properties that you want to approve and make a decision is during.

B

An open session you will then make a motion, as we did in the 2019 uh properties, on that zoning map.

B

So you're, not necessarily approving this property or adopting this property you're going to be.

B

Adopting the map in which this property is reflected, because that is the legal map.

B

That zoning is determined on so what we can do is say. Yes, you agree with this particular property.

B

That you feel it should be i2 we'll make a note of that that, as your provisional recommendation.

B

For adoption is yes and then we'll move through these properties? We don't. We've already met all.

B

The legal requirements as far as public hearing notice, all of that stuff, so you can begin to make.

B

Decisions now, but I believe in roberta correct me if I'm wrong, I believe the final vote needs.

B

To be on the map in an open session, not the work session um and that's what we will do sometime.

B

After you've heard all of the properties or, however, wish you want to move forward, linda.

F

You, uh I think you read my mind, that's exactly uh the way. I believe we should do it um except.

F

For the fact that it should be a provisional uh decision, not recommendation, you know we're, we.

F

Are now making decisions so we're? You know it's one step closer, but absolutely you know this is.

F

Not a a done deal, but a provisional decision can be made through us during these work sessions and.

F

Then, in open session we approve it. Okay, okay, is that and that my colleagues are good with that.

A

And I I know you are dennis. We just changed the word straw to provisional. That's all so.

A

So working yeah, so we're good there all right, okay! But let's move on well, you know yeah, okay, so.

A

So, let's, let's go right down through these 11 then linda, as you have suggested,.

A

And then we'll we'll uh we'll do the provisional on each one thanks. I just want to be clear here.

A

Because I I don't want, I don't want anything to jam up the process. Now. We've we've come too far.

A

To have something uh to have something derail us at this point, so, okay, thank you. Oh.

B

Absolutely- and I didn't want to make assumptions on how you wanted to proceed forward, so I'm just.

B

Laying out options, so I appreciate that this is the direction um that that is being moved.

B

Forward and um so then again so this is the first property if you can go to the next slide.

B

And then we'll just go back through starting at the beginning again, the next one was c214202004.

B

The applicant is deborah stockdale, the request is r. Twenty thousand two c two, the property is.

B

Located on the south side of twenty six across from the liberty exchange in district five, the.

B

Acreage is eight acres and it is consistent with the freedom community, comprehensive plan.

B

And both staff and planning commission gave this a favorable recommendation.

G

If I can stop you, if you don't mind, why don't we just take these one at a time and go through.

G

Them, instead of going through the whole list and then going back from the beginning again,.

G

We're going to say basically the same thing when we come up to them again, so why don't.

G

We just start with zero zero zero. Three talk about that one, take our provisional vote and.

G

Move on to zero zero zero, four, because I I just I I just think it makes sense and I could be wrong.

G

You all could say frasier what are you thinking, but I just think that that's the way to do it.

A

Okay I'll say this yeah frasier. What are you thinking? No, I I agree. I I think I think that's.

A

The best way to do it too, dennis I, I assume that's what we were doing here. So let's go.

A

Back to everybody good with that, I think frazier's outfiers made him smart today yeah! Well, that's a.

A

Whole nother story: everybody good everybody good with with uh case by case here. Okay, all right.

A

Okay, then we're gonna go back linda to zero, zero, zero. Three okay.

B

And that is on your screen all right.

E

This this is my district. I met with the owner. I support this proposal.

A

Okay, any other comments on zero: zero, zero. Three! Yes, uh during the uh one of the hearings, we had a.

H

Comment made to change the woods to conservation due to steepness of the slopes.

H

Does that have any merit in this part.

E

Are you asking linda or myself haven't been out there.

H

Well, I'm just asking anybody here. uh You know. I know that I've had the comment written down from.

H

One of the hearings that uh perhaps this one would be a split um uh zoning on it, where you.

H

Know the uh part of it will go to industrial, but the steepness uh and forested areas would remain.

H

Conservation uh to the stream below it, um and that is very steep in that area, isn't it eric yeah? It's.

E

A very steep drop off that goes out the railroad tracks. I mean that steep wooded area on the.

E

Hillside there's no way anyone could use it for anything, but the rest of the land is already open.

E

And being utilized in some form or fashion by the contractor that owns it, and I don't think it would.

E

Impact it in any way, because it's already being used in some form of uh commercial use now anyways.

G

Yeah when we discussed this, it was mentioned about the woods and steep slope and probably.

G

Nothing could be done with that and they're not looking to do anything with that. They're.

G

Just looking to expand what they have right now on the flatter area, so I don't think.

G

There's a danger of those woods or steep slopes being used because right now, there's two steep.

H

Okay, that's fine! I'm just uh reviewing my notes from this one. When you share it.

A

Okay, so what are? Are we just gonna? Take uh I mean I don't I don't.

A

Correct me, if I'm wrong, linda, if this is a pr, if this is provisional, then I don't know that we need.

A

The motion in second right now, I think we can just go with.

A

With with those that are that are in favor, since this is provisional.

A

Would would we agree with them to you absolutely, we can certainly do that and.

B

um This is just a provisional decision, so does not need to to be that formal.

A

Is that so how would we vote on it does? Do we just.

E

Put thumbs up, I mean it's provisional. What would be the process or procedure.

A

Well, I mean we can do it, we can. We can do it that way.

A

uh We can do it in the way of what we typically would do and maybe include the word provisional.

A

In in the in the uh in the motion, if you'd like, if you want to keep it, if you want to keep it.

A

That direct and then just say, you know, move that we provisionally accept this one uh or something.

A

In that manner, and then we can do it that way, if that would make it easier, I I move that we.

E

Take a provisional vote on the whitaken property. Okay: here we go. Is there a second.

G

Second: okay, all right.

A

Provisional voting here, those in favor of this zero zero zero three.

A

Okay, that was unanimous, uh provisional vote moving on.

B

All right um again, the next one is c214202004. The applicant is deborah, stockdale request is r22c2, it's eight acres and it is.

B

Consistent and both planning, commission and staff gave this a favorable recommendation.

A

And I think, as a matter of consistency here, moving forward too.

A

uh I would like the commissioner, whose district these particular properties lie.

A

In to take the lead uh in either reminding us of the property, we're making that provisional motion.

A

If, if that's okay, uh because I think that gives it a a better familiarity here,.

A

um So, uh commissioner, ross teen- this is five yeah, so this this property is on the south side of 26.

F

Across from liberty exchange, um you have the uh storage units uh to the right of it or to the.

F

East of it um it's going towards white rock going towards 97.. uh It is. It is consistent with the.

F

Properties uh to both sides of it um on the corner of white, rock and 26, you do have uh residential.

F

But it I, I think, it's it's bracketed by commercial, as is so. It just makes sense that it should.

F

um Should uh move to commercial, it's consistent with uh with the plan as well, so.

A

We got no comments on this one either right. I don't have anything written down on this one.

F

So I'll make the motion.

F

That we do a provisional uh decision on favorable for this piece of property.

E

Then eric eric did you have anything else on this one? Yes, sir, I I mistakenly thought that was one.

E

Of the properties in my district and went out and visited toured the spot and I'm in 100 agreement.

E

With commissioner ross- and you know eric it's uh it's right on the line, I think between you and I.

F

And um honestly, I I think it's mine, but white rock is yours on the south side 26 so.

F

You're right, I think it's like within uh a um a property of each other, so.

A

Well, then, it makes sense that that you, you both you motioned in second nicely done, gentlemen.

A

Those in favor of zero, zero, zero, four provisionally moving on linda.

B

All right, the next property is um c207202005, that's hale and helen stone suffer. The request is r10000 to c2. The property is on 438.

B

East main street in westminster in district 3, so commissioner frazier's district.

B

The property is 0.1381 acres and it is consistent with the westminster environs plan and the.

B

2009 westminster plan, both staff and planning commission gave this a favorable recommendation.

G

God you took everything I was going to say it is my district, it's on main street. This is where.

G

There are old houses that are being turned into businesses and commercial uses and, as linda said,.

G

uh I don't know if you actually said this not but city westminster, didn't make a comment at all, but.

G

That from what I can gather from talking to people there in favor of this everything.

G

Everything seems fine, so I'll make the provisional uh motion that we accept this uh change as well.

A

And I'll I'll, second, it I'm very familiar with it up there and everything surrounding.

A

That property seems to be in the same uh the same mode. There's businesses.

A

Up there, so uh I think this makes sense, so there's my second um any other on this one.

A

In favor, okay, moving on linda that was unanimous, all right, skipping ahead now to.

B

Zero one c204202010 the applicant is smo incorporated. The request is r. Forty thousand.

B

Two c two: the location is maryland 140 at suffolk road. It is in district two, commissioner weaver's.

B

District and again, this property is less than um one acre in size. It is consistent with.

B

Goal 15 of the carroll county master plan and both staff and planning commission gave this a.

B

Favorable recommendation: this is already part of that jiffy mart gas station, um so this would just.

B

Be an extension of that parcel. If you recall this property um was sold and re-subdivided by tevis.

B

In 2018, I believe so that is why they're coming forward now, with this rezoning request.

B

Is to make everything consistent with the jiffy mark property.

H

Yes, this uh zoning uh makes sense here.

H

uh I I'm sentenced out of order in my book here. I don't know where you got to, but.

H

Yeah there it is.

H

Yeah, um I'm just looking. uh I didn't have any uh unfavorable comments on.

H

It and looking at the property, knowing where the property is this makes sense, and I will.

H

Move that we provide provisional acceptance of this rezoning.

A

Hey commissioner weaver, the only thing that I got I had mentioned in one of it. I think it was in.

A

The um listening session, not the public hearing, but I had questioned the uh the availability of.

A

That business to be able to expand, because I don't uh you guys, if you've seen these bigger rudders.

A

And uh royal farms, you know they they have their their their fuel islands. Quite a distance away.

A

From their uh existing uh shops or store fronts or whatever, and I I merely asked the.

A

Question as to whether this could occur, because there is a house that sits right there behind.

A

If that would ever occur, but I think the answer was there was no intent to ever. Do that and.

A

I think the way that property sits, I don't think they could do it anyway. Could they dig.

H

No, no, this is a very uh it could maybe expand that to parking or something, but not what you're.

H

Alluding to as far as the fuel islands, it's uh if I remember right, I think this falls down.

H

Into a conservation uh area uh where they have to have some drainage in there, so that's why.

H

I made the motion. This is, I think, a mood point on this one: okay, all right I'll. Second, it then.

A

All right uh any others on this one moving. Oh sorry, all in favor.

A

The unanimous moving forward, linda and just to clarify too, I don't believe they can because.

B

There's a water recharge easement to um part of that property, so they really could not expand.

B

Much onto that additional piece- and I believe that's in your staff report just to clarify yeah.

A

Yeah, it is, I just wanted to bring up, because a lot of these are no comments, but we did.

A

Because I brought it up, we did get a comment on that and it was, it was clarified and that's the.

A

Only reason I brought it up thanks absolutely so again, this next property is adjacent to it. This.

B

Is the 0011 tedx real estate incorporated, the request is r40 to c2 and it is in district 2.

B

This is a 5900 square feet, so very small parcel and it houses a billboard on the property.

B

Both staff and planning commission gave this a favorable recommendation.

A

This is yours, dick a question.

A

Did you sell all this property from the jiffy mart all the way across? Is that all right.

B

Several years ago and then subdivided the parcel to take his portion off.

B

Which is the billboard, which is the one that you're seeing now, so that's why these partials have. These um odd configurations is because of that. Thank you.

H

Yeah, these parcels all have uh some major limitations with them. I mean it would be some.

H

Development, but it's not going to be anything um it's sort of like uh low 10 there. It's not going.

H

To be a major change to this, and I I didn't even make any comments uh as far as the.

H

uh What we have to change on this, I think the billboard sets in there and that's about it.

H

So I'm not a move that we passed this provisionally.

A

A

All those in favor.

A

Okay, linda moving forward that was unanimous: okay, the next property c2062020015 the applicant is.

B

Mary jane grant request is add to c2. This property is located in your district. Commissioner, wants.

B

On 4033 limeboro road, just outside of manchester, in the lime borough, rural village, the property is.

B

8.09 acres and it is consistently implementation strategy for rural villages, as outlined in the.

B

Carroll county master plan, both staff and planning commission gave this a favorable recommendation.

A

Yeah, so this one's mine and I'm going to make clark shaffer fall off his chair right now.

A

Because he's probably listening, I am against this 100 percent. Okay, now that clark schaefer's back on.

A

His chair, I think this makes sense uh this this one, uh this one. um This is long overdue. uh There.

A

Has been mixed use uh on this property and dick, you also are very familiar with this property.

A

You and I both have been through this process here, um and this is just a very sensible decision here.

A

To allow for these folks to be able to operate in the best manner that they can.

A

Consistent with what they've been doing for many years, and since this should be in my district.

E

Are you liable for clark's heart attack.

A

Yeah, so uh that was my provisional motion and I think commissioner weaver just seconded it. So all.

A

Right any other questions on this one, all right, uh all those in favor, that's uh unanimous, moving.

A

Forward as well and my apologies to mr shaffer, okay moving on mr shade for me, I didn't see that.

B

Coming so the next property c307 202017- this is 844. Professional center request is r10 000 um to.

B

C2 they had requested c3, but then changed it to c2 and the alternative. um The property is.

B

844, washington, road and commissioner frazier's district. It is 4.9 acres and is consistent with.

B

The visions in the westminster plan staff gave it a favorable recommendation for c2.

B

Planning commission gave it a favorable recommendation for c2.

G

Yeah, this is already like, linda, said, built out, there's professional buildings. There.

G

Doctor's offices, that kind of thing um and with parking it just makes sense to to zone it as such.

G

Is that a [ __ ] enough I'll make the provisional motion that we zoned it.

G

To c2 and we've already seconded, that was good, weaver seconded again just to make it official.

H

Officially, I second uh commissioner frazier's motion. Thank you. Thank you, commissioner. Weaver.

A

All right, yeah, this one makes sense as well all those in favor all right moving forward, linda.

A

That was unanimous, okay, skipping way ahead now, um so, as you can see, between 17 and 31,.

B

We're going to have some discussions, so property 31, c205 202031 is buckman associates, llc.

B

The request is r10000 to c2. It is located at 1135 liberty, road in commission, rothstein's district.

B

The property is 0.39 acres and is consistent with the future land use and goals. One two and four, the.

B

Freedom community comprehensive plan, both staff and planning commission gave this a favorable.

B

Recommendation and most recently, I afforded a positive comment to you regarding this property.

F

Yeah again, this is a pretty much a no-brainer. It's on the corner of 32-26, just uh a bit westbound.

F

Of uh princess shopping center and it def, it conforms to uh the master plan and ties neatly in.

F

To the surrounding parcels, so with that, I will make a provisional.

F

Recommendation that we approve this piece of property, as listed.

A

That was a second from eric. Thank you. Okay, any other questions on this one in favor.

A

Moving forward, that's unanimous, keep going linda. The next property is c205 202032.

B

The applicant and I just love to say his name- is onofrio's seminal. Trustee request is r10 to c2.

B

um There are three parcels that make up this request: 1107, 1123 and 1129 liberty, road.

B

um It is in again, commissioner rostein's district. The acreage of all three properties makes up 1.07.

B

Acres and it is consistent with both the land use and the goals in the freedom plan.

B

Both staff and planning commission gave this a favorable recommendation same comments as the.

F

Previous uh piece of property, so therefore I will make the uh motion for provisional decision or.

F

Provisional recommendation, we move forward on this piece of property, as listed second.

A

Second, all right, all those in favor of uh double o 32 and that's unanimous, linda moving forward. Okay,.

B

So the next two properties um that have an unfavorable recommendation by planning commission.

B

And staff- and they are not consistent with the plan for the area- there were no.

B

Comments on either of these requests positive or negative. So if we can go to the next slide, please.

B

So these are a little more challenging. You may want to have a little more discussion if you.

B

Agree with an unfavorable recommendation to not resign these properties, so the first one is c207.

B

Zero: two: zero: zero, zero two zero: the applicant is bulk four llc. The request is ag to c2.

B

The location is 75, lamb drive in westminster, um it is in commissioner frazier's district and it is.

B

10.2 acres, this property's request is not consistent with the future land use.

B

Of the carroll county master plan, more goals, 14 and 15 of the plan on this property was the.

B

Former site of the north carol community school and was a church at one point in time. All of the.

B

Current and past uses were primary principal uses in the ag zone, so nothing was non-conforming.

B

On this property, both staff and planning commission gave this an unfavorable recommendation.

G

Well, I'll start off the conversation since it's in my district, I personally am not in favor of.

G

Rezoning nest, I I know where the property is it's, it's kind of just outside the westminster.

G

I can't remember: what's called primary development area or whatever something like that, linda.

G

uh Right outside there it it's a, it was a church. It was turned into the school. I believe it's a.

G

Church again, it can still be a church in the zoning net song right now. So I don't really.

G

Understand why they want to change the zoning there, because they can still use it for what it's.

G

Being used for right now without changing anything, so I'm in favor of keeping it the way that it is.

A

Yeah, so I'm very familiar with this too, I pass it uh 14 times a day and you're right dennis it.

A

It was a church and then a school, and now it's back to a church. um The problem is for me on.

A

This one there's no planned uh service, either water or sewage, out to this facility uh at all.

A

And it is outside of the dga of westminster, so I'm not sure why they would want to rezone it.

A

They'd have to do their own thing out there and I don't think that they would. I can't.

A

Imagine them having to do that with anything other than what it is now, which is you know a.

A

A minimal size or a medium-sized church, I guess so I I agree. I don't think this is consistent with.

A

With what we're trying to do here, so that's my two cents dennis to tap onto yours.

H

I agree with you dennis. This is uh just outside the area. No silver and water planned.

H

Maybe 10 15 years from now 20, but not present time.

A

So I was going to say I'll make the most a straw vote. This is given unfavorable uh recommendation.

A

Yeah I'll second, it.

A

All right, all those in favor, on that one unfavorable on this particular property.

A

Which is um 2020 0, 0 22., all right that was unanimous, linda next, one.

B

All right, so the last property for discussion today is.

B

Two: zero c1032020 zero. Two seven, the applicant is north carol community school. The request is.

B

Ag to c1 the property is located at 401, stone, road and district one. So this is your district.

B

Commissioner rants, the acreage is 12.7 acres. This is not consistent with the future land.

B

Use or the goals in the carroll county master plan, both staff and planning commission afforded.

B

An unfavorable recommendation for this property again this is a primary principal use allowed in.

B

The zoning district that they're in this is not a non-conforming use, so this is something that.

B

Again is primary principle for this property. I guess that would be my only reason for saying.

A

No to this is it's inconsistent with um with the usage out there. uh Listen, I'm gonna be clear. I.

A

Can't imagine them ever doing anything else with this property other than what it is they've spent.

A

A lot of money on the school building, it's brand new! uh Well, it's about, I say brand new. It's.

A

Probably two three years old at this point: they've improved the property with a couple athletic.

A

Fields- and uh you know they they're they've- really invested in that piece of property, so.

A

um The only reason I would say no to this, I guess is because it is inconsistent. I mean.

A

I've argued before that we should call it what it is: it's a school and that's what.

A

It is but if it's inconsistent with the use, I guess that's where we should go with this.

A

I guess you get a sense, I'm a little torn on this one, because there it's.

A

Clearly being used for what it is, I know it's approved in that in ag.

A

F

um Schools are um appropriate in what properties currently just ag or other parcels. Other zoning.

F

Linda um mary, can you chime in on that? Please you have the code with you. Thank you.

B

Here is my code checker today.

B

Mary you're still muted. um I think it's on your gear wheel.

I

Can you hear me now? Yes, we can thank you. Okay, um they're permitted in all three commercial.

I

Districts, not the industrial district, and let me just check on the residential.

I

I'm not sure I believe they are in all the residential, but let me be sure about that.

B

And obviously it is permitted and add because that's how they were.

F

Okay, now I mean as well as all the residential sorry, okay thanks mary any answer to the question.

F

um That the school would still be conforming if it was rezoned into c1 and but I'm not sure, go ahead.

A

Yeah, that's the that that was the only question I had and you were kind of getting there. I.

A

I mean, I think they put it the request in because they probably want to be called what they are.

A

Really, but um but clearly it it, this is not consistent with the the master plan on.

A

On a couple items, so I think for that for that, uh for that part of this discussion.

A

I think it we should let it alone we didn't hear they just put in.

A

And we really didn't hear anything else from them right, linda that I can recall.

B

That is correct. We did not hear anything from that, and just so. You know too that this property.

B

Was developed after the adoption of the plan is consistent. The current development everything.

B

Is consistent with the master plan, as well as, in conformance with the current zone? Okay, okay,.

A

Well, I get a sense that if they were so strongly in favor of this.

A

They would have been a little bit more more vocal about this, um so based upon.

A

The decisions that was made by both our planning and uh our planning and zoning folks, our planning.

A

Department of planning and zoning folks I'll go ahead and provisionally uh say that.

A

We should leave this where it is and give it unfavorable. I'm stuck in that.

A

All right any other discussion on this one.

A

All in favor eric.

A

Is that a is that another obstain on this one I'm a little bit torn on it? Okay, all right! So that's.

A

Four and one abstention provisionally so: okay, all right, linda all right, so we're well ahead.

B

Of schedule for this morning, we don't have any other materials prepared for you. um I think this.

B

Is a good starting place for us to to to know how you would like to proceed forward with these? um So.

B

We have 17 more requests to go through um and how again we're going to be moving forward. Those are.

B

The remaining properties in order of complexity, so, basically um in recommendations, maybe there's.

B

A conflict between staff and planning commission recommendation as far as consistency goes on.

B

Consistency with the plans and comments received so again, these were kind of the low hanging fruit.

B

Some of the easier decisions to make as we move forward the next 17 will progressively get more.

B

Challenging, therefore, we have two work sessions scheduled after the first of the year. The first.

B

One is january 5th and the next one is january 14th and again we're blocking off two hour blocks.

B

We may go that whole time. We may not it's hard to know what the timing will be moving forward.

B

But um again, prior to each meeting I'll, send you the presentation of properties that we will.

B

Be discussing with you, as well as the remaining comments that we've received up into the public.

B

Hearing, which is when the record closed there, any questions comments if you like this process,.

B

If you've got any suggestions for the next two meetings, I'm happy to hear them. We're kind of.

B

Moving at your pace- and um you know kind of how we move along with this whole process,.

G

Hey you know alexa. I like the way it's working, because I suggested it, but no. I do like the way.

G

It's working very well. I do have a question if you could check on the property, because.

G

Since we got the booklet and the favorables and all that other stuff, the property owned.

G

31 defense property sent a different diagram of what they want to do with the property.

G

Can you check to see if that, because of the new configuration so forth, would that come out as a.

G

Favorable recommend recommendation from either planning zoning or staff or still unfavorable.

G

Because I'd like to have that information before we look at that particular property.

G

And I also like to make one other comment is brought up because of commissioner boucher, but.

G

I don't think we should have stayed on these on these things. These are very important.

G

We need to make decisions made provisional votes, we can abstain, but once we get to the actual.

G

Vote we've got to vote on this. That's what we're here for, unless you have a conflict of interest.

G

That you know the owner personally or you have money into it and says I don't have any.

G

Money at all, I have any money in anything, but you know that's something like that.

G

Then we have to vote on it and that's just the way I feel about it. I you could say, commissioner,.

G

Fraser you're wrong, but I just feel that's what we're here for is to vote on these properties.

E

Commissioner fraser, I appreciate that it's just that I really want to delve deeper into.

E

A little bit of the legal aspect, and since it is a provisional vote, I want to hold back until I.

E

Get some more clarity, because I'm I'm very much concerned about the legalities of all this and.

E

Once it does come up, I will definitely vote up or down these properties, but since it is provisional.

E

I just want to hold back and do a little bit more research on it. Thank you and I appreciate that and.

G

Thank you for your explanation. The the other piece um about the finch property linda is.

F

If they made a change in their recommendation or in their, uh you know what they want.

F

To achieve out of that finished property to ensure that the community uh was aware of those.

F

Changes inappropriately and had the appropriate opportunity to comment and that we gather those.

F

Comments, um you know that that's that's gonna be important, because what I don't want is for them to.

F

Skip that process uh by making changes, you know midstream, um we got it. This is a great process.

F

uh You know I've applauded you and your team, along with the planning commission um in getting us.

F

Where we are today, uh I think you know, and I think we can still have some conversation. I mean uh we.

F

Did block it off for a couple hours? I don't know if there's a a feel for that, if people want to.

F

There are pieces of property that you know we can have conversations on. uh This is a work session.

F

So if, if you're open for my colleagues good, if not, then I guess we can wait till january 5th.

F

If we could do it before that'd be great, there's like there's just a lot of interest going on right.

F

Now and the more we can put people at ease one way or the other. I think the better the community is.

F

Going to be so that's my two cents linda. Are you ready to perceive any of your properties.

G

And I'm going to quote commissioner ross scene for a second. I hate to do that, but we're here for a past amount of time, but it's ready to if you're not ready to move forward, then I would say.

G

I'd hold off if you're ready to move forward. In my opinion, um I mean we can put something.

B

Together on the screen from our website, I don't have anything else to present to you other than.

B

What we've already shown for you today? So if you all want to move forward and we're certainly happy.

B

To do that, I would suggest that then we would pick up um with our next property.

B

Which is zero zero one for mad properties, and I can pull that up onto the screen.

A

You're not talking about now your talk.

A

You're talking about soon right, not right now dennis right.

A

Were you talking about now? No, I ed was, I was not. I was talking about I'd like to have the.

G

Same procedure, all we did today would linda have everything ready for us at. Like you know, we got.

G

Some stuff beforehand and that kind of stuff what properties you were going to talk about.

G

That's what I said: that's why I said we're here for a test not a time but okay, you know if you.

G

Want to move it before the the fifth. I don't know that be possible because of the you know, breaking.

G

All up, though, it was a tiny issue, we could not get anything on the schedule, but but the.

F

Thing is, we do have we do have our books. We've been looking at this, for course, and now I've.

F

Obviously been looking at this a whole lot more because of the the other work sessions, but.

F

I feel like we are, as a team of commissioners prepared to have these conversations.

F

If, if we're not that that's fine and we can wait, um I understand the scheduling challenges. I don't.

F

Know if the 29th of december is doable, uh it would give us a week prior um in moving forward.

F

I don't want to be such a taskmaster, but you know it's it's difficult and holiday season. It's very.

F

Difficult to get things scheduled, I know, but um we have a lot on our plate and I would like us to.

F

Get as much done as possible before we start walking into the budget season, and I know we.

F

Can do two things at once, but there's a lot on our plate. So that's what I was thinking through.

A

So there's there's there's two tuesdays yet that we don't really have anything scheduled, um but.

A

I don't know how your schedule is: linda. I've got two tuesdays in december, the 15th and the 22nd.

B

Commission, but we can do um in the afternoon. Oh.

A

Okay, yeah, that's I'm sorry! I didn't I don't have. I don't have that on here. Sorry.

B

So the afternoon- um and we can do the afternoon of the 22nd- is fine. With with.

B

My schedule, obviously and I'll do whatever you all need us to do. Is it possible to move the.

F

Planning and zoning commission um to 11 o'clock, as opposed to nine, so the agenda's already been set.

B

And sent out and we do have development review projects on the schedule. Yep, that's fair.

F

I think it's a great idea, I I mean I I.

A

I'm not gonna, say I don't agree with with dennis and ed because I typically do agree with dennis.

A

And ed so uh on some things, uh but I think sooner rather than later here and the more we push this.

A

uh I think it gets a little bit stale, you know what I mean we we just came off.

A

A listening session we just came off a public hearing. We've got that we've got the comments.

A

uh With the exception of reaching out to one more I'm, of course, I only had like three so.

A

And two had never done, but um but I with the and I've got to reach out to one more person on one.

A

Of mine yet, but I'm ready to roll on these things, I think I I just think the more that we worship.

A

Say that again, dick is the morning of the 15th possible but linda and I are tied up.

F

In the planning uh commission, which the agenda's already been pushed out, so that's where we're not.

F

Available so we could do the afternoon, um you know I I do know we have the veterans commission, but.

F

We could miss that, or you know, take a breather to talk. You know give some comments, but.

F

um I I just think that again, we have momentum with a lot of uh interest in what's going on and.

F

Like you said it's fresh on our minds, so that's why I would like to keep this conversation going.

G

For the 15th, and then it was the 22nd see we get them done. Then I mean why not we could.

G

Get through the whole thing before christmas, if, especially, if it goes as smoothly as I did.

G

This morning, which I'm not really expecting but it'd be very nice to have that happen.

A

Yeah yeah and then maybe have that january 5th- is that the one you've got on there.

A

As the wrap up and the the vote for the entire thing- maybe I don't know instead of we can.

A

Provisionally do the 15th and leave it leave it provisionally. The 22nd uh sit on it and then.

A

Still have that last january 5th to make any final and do the final vote. That would be my suggestion.

A

I don't, I don't want you guys to miss the the um the vac meeting. I.

A

Mean you guys, okay with missing that back meeting or not you and dick you and ed.

F

I think we can get our comments to gina um and to uh to mark prior um dick. I mean that.

F

I don't want to speak for you, but I feel like taking care of the water on this yeah. We can.

H

uh I don't think, there's anything earth shattering going on right. It's present time that we.

H

Can get comments to them and uh go from there, so I um yeah- I I think you know this would take.

H

uh Precedent over any other meetings, I think the big discussion during the vac honestly is going.

F

To be um the wreaths across america, scheduling on the 19th and because this will be the 15th so.

F

I think people are going to divvy up where they're going to be going um and if we can.

F

As a group prepare where we're going to be going and share that with gina and the team over there.

F

And mark that that would be helpful so and yeah besides, that, I think we'd be good. Okay,.

A

Okay, so you guys you with knowing how planning rolls planning's at 9 00 a.m on the 15th right.

A

Is that typically roll past noon or one o'clock? This is a very late agenda, so we we, we should be.

B

Done very latest 11, I would think okay. So the only reason I'm asking one to three.

A

Or for ed, and I 1300 to fifteen hundred.

A

Twenty four to bed, so they shouldn't run all day.

A

So we wanna do the 15th and the twenty second from 1p to 3p. Is that good.

A

A

Linda you alright, with that. Yes, sir perfect.

A

Okay, all right anything else, I I just want to real quickly state that I appreciate both commissioner.

E

Fraser and rostein's heightened interest in reviewing the finch prop, even though it's.

E

My district, it's very complicated and I'm gonna need all of our brains to work very hard on this.

E

To make a rational decision, so thanks for your extra interest in this property.

A

Okay, uh county administrator. Do you have anything.

D

Well, with regard to the pinch property, um the the applicant, as you know, through their attorney.

D

During the public hearing um made a an alternate suggestion for their um request to their request.

D

Keep in mind, the board of commissioners can not only approve or deny what the any applicant.

D

Has requested, but you can also modify um so to commissioner rossing's point.

D

If the clear keep in mind that the hearing and the record are closed, so we're not.

D

Authorized to accept any additional comments at this time and I understand if the board wants to.

D

Have the opportunity for the public around the finch property who have commented or who would.

D

Be commenting want to do that and react react to the most recent suggestion. Then the board may want.

D

To consider- and we can talk about this next time or the time after may- want to consider opening.

D

The public hearing for that purpose does that make sense, because you can't take public comment on it.

D

As it stands at the moment, but if you want to give the public an opportunity to react to the newest.

D

Suggestion then, it would be my recommendation that we open.

D

Open a public hearing for that purpose, or we could pass judgment on the original request.

D

Right, you can do that anyway. You could do that anyway, regardless you can, you can decide for.

D

Yourself that these are at your approved, as requested they're denied, as requested.

D

Or anything in between okay, so if somebody asks for this- and you want to give them something else,.

D

You can without a public additional public hearing, and um so um but if you have an interest in having.

D

The public react and you seem to indicate that commissioner osteen, so maybe I misunderstood, you.

D

But if you have an interest in having the public react to the latest suggestion or um request of.

D

The applicant then you'd have to open the public hearing in order to do that. That's awesome right.

F

And and my comment or my thoughts are if we are to take into consideration the uh newest request, then.

F

I think the fair um and expectation should be that the community has the opportunity to comment.

F

If we as a board, are to take that up, if we are not to take that up um and look at the original.

F

Request, we've got every comment already made and we can deliberate and then judge so right. That's.

D

Totally up to you it's just! If you want to take new comments, then you need you here. That's all.

A

Which leads to an interesting interesting uh way in which to do this, because quite.

A

Frankly, I've already gotten three emails as a as as it pertains to the the newest proposal.

A

For that property, so I guess in essence what you're saying is: I'm not supposed to read them.

A

Problem is, I already did it's stickier and modern. It gets stickier. This kind of thing.

D

Does get stickier in this kind of modern um world of communication? I mean people can pick up the.

D

Phone and call you people can, you know, reach out to you, they can see in the grocery store.

D

It's it's a little bit more complicated, but the official record is closed and um yeah and and.

F

I think we all received the same phone calls and emails, um because they're concerned you.

F

Know, community uh and neighbors- and you know it's one of those we listen- um we're not gonna share.

F

With them, this is what we're gonna do, because we don't know what we're gonna do. You know until we.

F

Get together um but as a to me, if we're going to consider the new uh recommendations or the new.

F

Requests then it would be fair for the community at large to have the opportunity to come back to.

F

Us with their comments openly to all of us, so it's we're all on the same sheet of music um but again.

F

That's something that we have to decide whether we're gonna do that or not right. Yeah we'll take.

A

That we'll take that discussion up when the property comes up either the 15th or the 22nd.

A

And then we can move forward, then there's nothing to say that we can't put that property aside right.

A

In order to have an additional hearing, just on that particular parcel so but but that discussion.

A

I think needs to be had when we bring that property up for all of us to weigh in on it. So.

D

Okay, just wanted to put that in your in your brain since, especially since.

D

Commissioner rossie mentioned it yeah thanks a lot to me or the commissioner, you and him both.

A

Look now he wants to adjourn real, quick. Imagine that.

A

Okay, all right anything else, anything else.

A

All right, uh we'll be back on the air thursday morning at 0. 900 hours remind everyone to stay.

A

Safe and we'll talk, then we have a motion to adjourn this work session. Is there a second.

A

Second, man took a while: okay, all right, everybody have a good day, we'll see you.

A

Thursday morning, all those in favor and we are out.

A