Carroll County, MD Carroll County Planning and Zoning Commission, 20 Sep 2022

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From YouTube: Planning and Zoning Commission of Carroll County Meeting September 20, 2022

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https://www.carrollcountymd.gov/government/boards-commissions/planning-zoning-commission/

A

Good morning, everybody good morning, it's settled in we'll get the meeting started this morning.

B

Like you were having a good time, that's not.

C

Okay, we're starting, we need quiet, please.

A

All right, let's uh we'll call the meeting to order and we will establish a quorum. What's your.

D

Others here that's kirkner here, mr lester here, mr hoff, here mr kane here, mr smith, here mr klosik.

E

Commissioner wantz here secretary eisenberg here mr chair, please let the record reflect that seven.

D

Members are present and we do have a quorum good. Let's, uh please stand for the pledge of allegiance.

A

Pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the.

A

Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under god, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

A

All right item four is review and approval of the agenda are there any other changes to the.

C

Just one minor revision with the amount of area annexation number from 76 to 45, full property.

A

Say that again, I'm sorry uh item number eight mount airy annexation. uh It was misnumbered, so.

C

It's not annexation 76, it is annexation 45.. That is the correction. Okay. Thank you. No other changes.

C

No and uh the chair would be happy to entertain a motion that we approve the agenda with that edit.

A

So moved is there a second? Second all right, all in favor sounds unanimous. The agenda is approved.

A

We have minutes from august 3rd august, 16th and august 31st. Does anyone have any suggested edits.

A

Not be happy to entertain a motion for approval, I make a motion. We accept the minutes.

F

Second, any discussion: all in favor aye, the minutes from august 3rd, 16th and 31st are approved.

A

We'll move on to item six commission member reports, I have nothing to report, commissioner.

A

Good morning, good morning, uh good to be with you all again what happened to summer anybody jesus.

B

Went like you know, like they're, saying that um just a couple things as you know, we're still.

B

Deep into the agree, zoning adventure and public hearing public hearing is this thursday 9 a.m. In.

C

Person in the county office, building room 311 and in the evening at 7 pm and that's virtual.

C

And everything is posted on our website for signing up and the commissioner's website as well.

B

See what I did there hey, you know I could just. I would have stumbled through that. I just went.

B

In, as you know, the other important thing from our office is uh on october, the fourth and fifth.

B

We will again be involved in our credit rating uh adventure that we do each year uh this year.

B

Is a little bit different instead of us going to new york, uh the credit rating agencies are.

B

Actually, coming to carroll, so we are going to be uh making sure that they see. What's.

B

Good about carol and uh taking them to a lot of the the the businesses and uh putting them.

B

In the best uh area for spending the night that we can and uh dining them as we can, as you know,.

B

We are aaa, which is incredibly important for everything we do in the county and we were.

B

Fortunate enough to get that upgrade about four years ago and we've been maintaining that ever.

B

Since so uh two days of pretty intense activity with not only our budget folks but our economic.

B

Development folks and it'll be all hands. So uh that's again the first week of october and we.

B

Look forward to maintaining again our our triple a rating other than that I always say. Thank you.

B

All for serving guys are doing an awesome job and, uh as I always say, and never gets old. One of the.

B

Most important boards that we have so thank you all appreciate it. Thank you, commissioner.

A

Any other members have anything they'd like to add or say, foreign, then we'll move on to.

A

Item seven, which is the administrative report, uh madam secretary, all right, welcome everyone.

C

This morning, as you all are aware, um and commissioner um lance thank you so much for mentioning the public hearing this thursday again.

C

um That's at seven nine a.m in person in room 311 and virtually at 7 pm in the evening and there's.

C

Also, a sign up button on our website, as well as the commissioner's website, to sign up to speak.

C

At the public hearing, it's critical that those wishing to give testimony at the public hearing in.

C

The evening use that tool, so we know who's on the line to be able to call them in an orderly fashion.

C

um And with that, um I believe, laura matthias has two extensions.

E

Good morning, good morning, yes, so the bureau of development review department of land and resource.

E

Management, we have two extensions since our last meeting. The first is living waters garden center.

E

This is s13007, it is the seventh extension of this site plan and it's in commissioner district 3.

E

The second one is hudson forest estates, 4 p12006. This is the fifth extension for this.

E

It is a 17 lot subdivision in commissioner district 4.. That's it! Thank you. Thank you.

C

Next abigail rogers will update you on recent board of zoning appeal cases. Abigail.

G

Good morning, good morning, so uh two bza cases were heard in august 6404, which was.

G

Mulligan recovery, centers, and that was for the expansion of an existing substance, abuse.

G

Recovery center from eight beds to ten beds with some variances and that property is located at.

G

829 franklin avenue westminster in the r-10 zone, which is in commission or district 3.,.

G

Planning department found the use consistent and the hearing will be continued on october. The 5th.

G

6409, which is for weddington farm, it was for a country in an events facility at 1733, wedican.

G

Farm drive westminster in the agricultural zone, which is commissioner district 2.. We also found.

G

This consistent, uh the bza, approved the use and then on september 27th. We have two cases: 6414.

G

Stairs valley, high farms is for a farm, alcohol producer and banquet facility with variances.

G

Properties located at 1742 hughes, shop, road westminster in the agricultural zone, commissioner,.

G

District 3., we found this use consistent, 6413 brown and brown company's llc is for an outdoor.

G

Equipment, storage, yard and vehicle rental at 2, um 2007 liberty, road, sykesville, the properties.

G

In the c2 zone, commissioner, district five, the planning department found the use consistent.

H

Thank you thank you, abigail, and that is all I have this morning for my administrative report. All.

A

Right, thank you very much. We move on to item eight, which is the mount airy annexation number 45.

I

I

Good morning, good morning,.

J

Good morning everybody I'm going to apologize for my voice. I wish the ravens had the same.

J

Enthusiasm I had for them on sunday, so just yelled a little louder. Maybe they.

B

Would have heard right? Actually I heard you yelling from my seats at least you.

J

Heard it right, like I mean mine, were way up there. Apparently it didn't help. So, whatever.

J

Not a fun game to be at anyway, so starting out, we are here for the mount airy annexation, 45 of the.

J

Full property you'll remember: this was introduced to you all at your virtual august, 31st meeting.

J

With us today is clark schaefer representing um the property owner ron thompson with the property.

J

Owner and then we also have john breeding with the town of mount airy and we have doug full who.

I

Is uh emmett fool's son and representative of the full family good morning? Welcome and him as well.

J

You just brought him up here so submitted with the annexation petition. Was the plot.

J

This annexation area is approximately 8.3 acres.

J

um It is owned by buffalo road investments llc, and there are also the petitioners of this annexation.

J

Parcel layout here we have the annexation in the blue outline the corporate limits adjoining.

J

The property with the red border, the frederick county carroll county border and the highlighted.

J

Yellow you'll see that the corporate limits are adjacent, so this would not create an enclave.

J

Here is the um orthos of the property. You can see. There's one improved dwelling on the western side.

J

To the north, we have single family residential to the east. We have ballparks, which is part of their.

J

Summit ridge parks and then to the south and to the west is um agriculture and then just want to.

J

Mention that access to the property is on shiloh road. I mean a buffalo road, sorry wrong. Annexation.

J

um There was also a site plan submitted with this annexation.

J

The developer is planning on subdividing the property into nine residential lots.

J

Here we have, the zoning under the county is currently zoned r40.

J

000, the entire 8.3 acres, the petitioner, has requested to be put in the r2 residential.

J

Zone since the r2 residential zone is 50 percent more dense than the counties are 40.

J

000 zone there is a zoning waiver required and that has been requested by the town.

J

Designated land use taken from the 2013 mount airy, comprehensive plan. The property is, has a low.

J

Density residential designated land use and the requested zoning is consistent with that land use.

J

Water and sewer we are in long-range service categories, for both water and sewer.

J

And then agency comments. I know there was a couple of things to follow up with the.

J

Department of public works is recommending the town of mount airy, assume maintenance.

J

Responsibility on the frontage of buffalo road and is my understanding from talking with.

J

John breeding, with the town that that has been worked out with the department of public works.

J

Planning staff is recommending the town go through a water and sewer amendment to.

J

Place the property and the priority service categories, and it is also my understanding.

J

That the town is already underway with a fall amendment coming up in a couple months,.

J

So next steps we are presenting this to the county commissioners this coming thursday, so.

J

We are here before you for a recommendation on the zoning waiver. Are there any questions.

A

I don't think so. Mr schaefer, uh thank you good morning. Clark, schaefer 73's main street here.

I

On behalf of the applicant, the buffalo road investments, which is really emmett, fulwin,.

I

Family, the only thing I'd like to say is: we obviously agree with the staff report.

I

We received a unanimous, I believe it was a recommendation from the mount airy planning.

I

Commission a week or so ago, when hannah came down and presented this matter and the other.

I

Point I'd like to make is that the actual density here, as you can see from that plan,.

I

Is that this, this is proposed to be developed under mount airy's cluster provisions, which.

I

Essentially, will allow the lots to be clustered and the actual density will be roughly equivalent.

I

To the r40 designation that the county has so we're not we're not trying to stuff uh stuff a.

I

Lot of stuff into a small turkey were proposed to develop in accordance with the neighborhood.

I

And we would request your recommendation to the commissioners to approve this and waive.

I

Any sort of a five-year period, thank you, so the action that you need from.

A

Us as a recommendation to the board of county commissioners on the zoning waiver, correct, okay,.

K

Of course, so it's it's! uh It's currently itself. Just clarifications currently has earned uh our 40.

K

000. correct, uh which is one dwelling unit per acre, the the submission the plan.

K

Included nine residential laws, which is basically one unit per acre.

K

So what am I missing here when it's being changed from you want to change 40 to 20. sure it is the.

C

Town zoning, so because it's being annexed into the corporate limits of mount airy, they have to.

C

Assume that mount airy zoning under state law, the zoning of r2, is considered generally 50 percent.

C

More intense than rr40, because it's half acre lots as opposed to one acre lots. But how they're.

C

Developing in the cluster, the overall subdivision is going to be equivalent to a one acre.

C

Subdivision, but we still have to do the zoning waiver for the municipality to meet the state's.

C

Requirements that would allow the development of half economics correct, because it's under.

C

The now it's moving into the town, so it's going to be under the town, zoning ordinance, correct.

C

A good question I can see how it would be confusing. Okay, anything else, any other questions.

A

You may have said this and I apologize the town is in favor of this. I take it correct.

J

And john, did you want to speak.

H

Good morning, good morning, john breeding uh tana mount airy director of planning.

H

Zoning yeah, so the planning commission gave a favorable recommendation, we'll be.

H

Giving a favorable recommendation to the town council at an up-and-coming.

H

Future meeting so we're in favor of it good, always good to know. Thank you.

A

Any other questions.

A

Are there any members of the public that would like to comment on this.

A

Okay, seeing none hearing none okay, I'll, make a motion that we approve the request. The zoning.

L

Wait for a request and forward it to the board of academy commissioners for their approval.

A

Awesome all right, so we have a motion. We have a second to improve the zoning waiver and forward.

A

To the board of county commissioners, is there any further discussion? Can we do just a voice vote on.

A

This all right, all in favor, anyone opposed or abstaining, sounds like you're, unanimous.

A

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

A

Move on to item nine, it's your another annex station! This is in.

A

A different town, hampstead annexation, number 44.

A

Is whoever you're still still with you.

M

Morning morning,.

J

So I'll get started with the next annexation: hampstead annexation, 44 of the michael's property.

J

um Did you guys want to introduce yourself? Certainly I'm david bowersox 24 north court.

M

Street westminster maryland here on behalf of the michaels family and with me, is steve smith.

M

From gaylord brooks, who is a contract purchaser with an interest in the property? This is subject.

M

Of the annexation, thank you good morning, so jumping in here is the annexation plot. That.

J

Was submitted to the county, the annexation area is approximately 28 acres. I will note that the.

J

Property extends across maryland 30, but only the area on the east side of route 30 is going to be.

J

Annexed orienting ourself, we are just north of shiloh, road and west of panther drive. We have.

J

The old north carroll high school to the north and then the elementary school to the south.

J

Parcel layout and overview on the corporate limits of hampstead you can see we are on.

J

The western side, it's kind of hard to see, but the growth area, boundary and.

J

The black and gold indicates that we are inside the town's growth area, boundary.

J

Here is the ortho. The area is partially improved with one small dwelling on the western side. You.

J

Can also see there is a pond on the property. Access to the property is from shiloh road.

J

Moving on to zoning, the entire parcel is zoned r 20 000, with the.

J

County, the petitioner petitioners have requested to be zoned, are 10.

J

000 with the town of hampstead, since the r 10 000, is 50 to 50 percent, more dense than the r20.

J

000 zoning there is a zoning waiver required and that was requested by the town of hampstead and.

J

The potential developer of the um annexation area is predicting between 40 and 45. Lots.

J

The designated land use was taken from the 2010 hampstead community comprehensive plan.

J

That was amended in 2017.. um You can see the land use, designations are r 10.

J

000 in the orange and then a small portion of the property has a designation of r 20.

J

000., so most of the property is consistent with the requested land requested. Zoning.

J

Water and sewer for the water water designations. We are in the long-range.

J

Service categories, as well as partially in the existing and then in the sewer.

J

Categories, we are in the future designation and it's partially in the existing as well.

J

Agency comments: we did receive a advisory comment from the bureau of utilities. The.

J

Receiving pump station to service this property is nearing capacity. The bureau of utilities may.

J

Not be able to issue approval of future final site development until scheduled pump station.

J

Improvements have been completed. Planning staff also has a recommendation that the town go.

J

Through a water and sewer amendment to place the property in the priority service categories after.

J

The improvements to the pump station are made um overall, planning staff is recommending approval.

J

Of the zoning waiver next steps, we are here for a recommendation on the zoning waiver to the county.

J

Commissioners- and we are also presenting this annexation to the county commissioners on thursday.

J

So that concludes my presentation. If you guys have any questions, mr bowersox.

M

um Thank you, I guess. First, I will open it to jim roork who's here from hampstead to see if.

M

He has any comments he'd like to make. That would be great jim. Thank you good morning, good morning,.

N

Jim roork, I'm assistant, zoning administrator for the town of hampstead. The one thing you.

N

May have noticed on this. Annexation is how they are almost creating an enclave of the.

N

Farmhouse in the center and the houses down on shiloh, we reached out as a town to each one of.

N

Those individuals, each property owner to see if they would be interested in coming in annexing.

N

Into the town we got responses from some some were very inquisitive, but we have not heard back some.

N

Of them were no and some were very adamantly, no we're not coming into town, but we did try and I.

N

Figured that would be one of the questions you guys may have. If you have anything else,.

A

um Maybe I'm not seeing the forest for the trees what's motivating this annexation, why? Why do why.

A

Are we doing it well right now, the property is not served with water and sewer. This is on the. I call.

M

It the inside of the bypass, um it's basically the family's property on the inside of the bypass. Mr.

M

And mrs michael have both passed away the property one half interest is owned by mrs michael's, trust.

M

Llc and mr michael's estate llc, so the family's in a position of needing to dispose of this property.

M

It's on the inside again of the bypass. The michael's farm was once a much larger tract.

M

Of land most recently 10 15 years ago, the state took right-of-way area in fee, simple right out.

M

Of the middle of the michael's farm and has isolated this piece of property away from.

M

The rest of its acreage on the outside of the bypass, the michaels, have also.

M

Conveyed for public use the side of the existing pump station.

M

North of the property, the michael family years ago, conveyed the site of the north carroll high school.

M

So that the property is now um we're looking at what appears to be the highest and best use of.

M

The property and that's reflective of the town's comprehensive plan incorporating it in the growth.

M

Area with a land use designation that corresponds exactly with the r10 thousand zoning. We're seeking.

A

And the issue seems to be long-term, as it is in many instances, water and so.

A

Something yes, there's already been. Discussions started uh with both hampstead and the county.

M

There is a a I would mention briefly a long going discussion um with the county.

M

About covenants that were provided at the time of the north carroll sewer lines that.

M

Were created about future service to the michael property, when the michael property is developed.

M

But that's in the background also the family know it's not an immediate situation.

M

um But we've got to do something to dispose of the asset. Are there any any questions? I noticed.

K

Before that, we in terms of schools comment was made, there will be no additional impact.

K

So adding approximately 100 residences, there won't be a hundred residences.

M

It's projected to be 40 to 45, maybe.

O

Not on the annexation, at the appropriate time when we know what the layout of the development.

M

Is going to be hampstead has adequate public facilities, ordinances that will need to be.

M

Complied with before we get any approval to develop and they include under the counties.

M

Concurrency scheme adequacy of schools, as well as water sewer road systems.

M

So we're here today again like the case before you we're merely asking for the five-year consent or.

M

Waiver, whatever we're calling it under the state code to change the zoning from the current r20.

M

To our 10 and in doing the request to r10 we're asking to be able to bring the property into.

M

Hampstead with the zoning that hampstead has already designated as appropriate for.

M

This property, when it comes into town. I can also add to your concerns as part of.

J

The county's process we send out for agency comments and one of the agencies we sent to.

J

Was the board of ed- and I spoke with mr will kane regarding the annexation and he provided.

J

No comments, so I take that as there's not really any concerns as of right now. So as we.

A

Stated today, there's there's no opposition, at least so far this morning. Well, let's hope not.

A

Let me pause and ask if there are any members of the public that would like to speak to this issue.

A

Okay, it appears nine. Are there any other questions.

B

uh If you, if you will allow, I will, mr chairman, thank you, uh I notice on the notes that there.

B

Is a there's, uh an additional access to this property off of emory? Is that correct.

M

I think that's the next case coming. Yes, I'm sorry agenda. I got the wrong one. That's quite all right.

B

This is fort, got it? Okay, sorry, no pranks, one! Sorry skipping ahead! It's it's! That would be.

M

Quite a an access group property, but yeah that was actually mr bowersox a test and you passed.

A

All right any other questions before we I'm sorry see if there's a motion commotion that.

L

We recommend annexation of this property and and our 10 000 uh right twenty thousand to ten dollars.

A

Zoning waiver zoning waiver- yes from our 20 000 to our ten thousand um board of county commissioner.

L

We have emotions. Is there a second a second okay? So we have a motion, a second to um agree.

A

To the zoning waiver and forward to the board of county commissioners, all in favor all right.

B

I'll make sure I got the right one on thursday. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you.

A

Next on, our agenda is item 10, which is the hinman property. It's case, m21-0046.

A

P

Good morning, planning commission good morning welcome.

P

Kirsten eggroll with the development review office bureau of development review.

P

We are here for the project m210046, the hinman property, I'm going to allow everybody who's up.

P

Here to introduce themselves as well good morning, commissioners, my name is mustafa azadi, I'm the.

Q

Engineer for this project good morning, hi, I'm ruth heinemann, I'm the owner of the property.

R

Good morning my name is tom: bowden, I'm one of the future purchasers of the subdivision property. Okay,.

A

Okay good morning, thank you very much. Thank you very much for being here.

P

Okay, so we have a powerpoint for this. Let me load that up.

P

So this project is a subdivision project. This is a minor subdivision, m210046.

P

We're here for you before you today, instead of just for the subdivision.

P

We're here regarding a modification request that was submitted in conjunction with the subdivision.

P

Regarding the use in common driveway, the subdivision is proposing that additional.

P

Lots be added to an existing single user driveway which will change it into.

P

A use in common driveway, so there's certain requirements that are applicable to it. Then.

P

And we're here for a modification request that was submitted by the owner developer. Regarding that.

P

So we are located at this site here, we're off of emory road, north or north emory road.

P

Just about a mile northwest of the carroll baltimore county border and maryland 91.

P

Emory road, where that meets the border, as you can see on this image here, this is the zoning.

P

Layer turned on so everything basically to the north of north emory. Road is egg zoned everything.

P

To the south is essentially conservation zone, you can also see that a lot of it's farmland.

P

And there are quite a few houses, you can see some smaller subdivisions in the area as well.

P

Some of the larger farms are in agricultural preservation easements, but not this one.

P

This is about a 20 acre parcel. There currently is only one house on it again. It is zone agricultural.

P

And we're in an area where they utilize, private, well and septic systems. You can see on this image.

P

Here that there is an existing house, essentially the center of the property, that's actually the.

P

High point of the property too, so it slopes downward in all directions from there, including.

P

The driveway, which it's a little bit hard to see in these drawings, but it wraps around the.

P

Front of the house follows the property line and then connects with north emory road. Here.

P

Okay, there's a stream you can see here along the eastern property border. It was also an area.

P

Of wetlands and this area here right near where the driveway meets the public road.

P

So again, this is a subdivision, that's being processed. It's a.

P

Minor subdivision being processed they're, proposing to divide two lots.

P

Off of the parent parcel, if you would we're here for day today, not for the subdivision itself, but.

P

We're here for the driveway, because again these these two houses are proposed to be accessed by.

P

Using this driveway, which will become therefore use a common driveway, the existing driveway is 10.

P

Feet wide and the owner developer has submitted a request in accordance with our code, to see if.

P

That driveway can be maintained at 10 feet wide, as opposed to being adjusted and wide into 12.

P

Feet wide, as typically be required by code for use in common driveway. This is in accordance with our.

P

Code again, it's the modifications section of use in common derived ways and I'm not going to read.

P

The whole thing it's a very long piece of code here and a little bit of it. So it's chapter 155025.

P

Notifications, where the planning commission finds it because of unusual circumstances,.

P

And photography or other physical features or conditions of the proposed subdivisions.

P

Or because of the nature of adjacent developments, extraordinary hardship may result from the strict.

P

Compliance with the use in common driveway design requirements of this code and the development.

P

Manual, they may be granted a modification when requested by the subdivider and developer.

P

So that was what was submitted to us with this submittal of the subdivision: request itself.

P

I'd like to read the actual request itself.

P

That was submitted again. The driveway is existing at 10 feet wide. It's paved.

P

May have submitted a request that was circulated through our review agencies for the following.

P

As per the development review manual, a 12 foot wide paved driveway is required for using common.

P

Driveways for minor subdivisions, the proposed subdivision has an existing 10 foot wide paved.

P

Driveway, which is in great condition and goes through wetlands buffer at the entrance near.

P

Emory road, any widening of the proposed use in common driveway, will further impact the wetlands.

P

Buffer, the existing driveway is over 25 years old and has been resurfaced in the past 10 years.

P

The two foot winding width is very narrow and will create continuous maintenance.

P

Problems, the driveways different sub-base, condition of a stable old driveway and the.

P

New unstable two foot widening by breaking off in separation from the original driveway.

P

So they requested that, for those reasons, they'd be allowed to keep the driveway at 10 feet wide.

P

As it exists, instead of increasing it to 12 feet wide, as would be required by code, and I.

P

Will note, too, that this was request? Is the only deviation from the use and common standards that.

P

Is being requested, if you look at the drawing you'll, see that there is a pullover at about.

P

The midpoint, as required by the code, otherwise as well as a turnaround at the end, as required.

P

By the code that the driveway is also paved its existing paved, which would have been required.

P

By code- and there is going to be a name driveway since they have three or more users now, so it's.

P

Meeting all the other requirements: this is the only modification request on the drawing too.

P

Since we're looking at it here, you can see the area of wetlands referenced in in the letter here.

P

Is my understanding that modifications or disturbance in the wetland area has.

P

To go through the mde as well, which I believe there was a request submitted for, but I'm not.

P

Sure that we've, that developer, has heard back from the mde regarding that request,.

P

I will also note- and this is not shown on the drawing- that there is an easement on this.

P

Driveway this will be shown on the next drawing. It was an overlooked by the surveyor. When this.

P

Was first submitted there's an easement that goes from the public road to this point here. It.

P

Follows the single property line and it allows for access for this farm property over this existing.

P

Property here, so that's an existing easement that was established actually, when the parent.

P

Parcel deeded a portion of the property to for farm use to a neighbor. So that's an existing.

P

Easement, that would they would utilize the driveway, but this modification is for the.

P

Pavement of the driveway and not for eliminating or changing any users, so that would not change.

P

I will also note that the request that I read was sent to a few of our review agencies that.

P

If we were to have read that entire modification section of the code you'll see that it recommends.

P

It the request, be sent to certain agencies, planning office engineering, review, fire.

P

Protection and resource management reviewed this none of those agencies had comments. The.

P

Only comment that was made was from engineering review that stated that the two foot of widening.

P

Adding two foot of pavement winding to the existing driveway would likely cause maintenance.

P

Issues for the property owners compaction is difficult to obtain on what's less than four.

P

Feet which would cause cracks and failures in the pavement, was what the engineering reviewer.

P

Said when that was circulated, but besides that there were no other comments. We have had comments.

P

From the public, however, the neighbor to the north called and had questions about the easement. There.

P

And about how this would impact the easement and the issues with the driveway with currently.

P

Regarding driving farm tractors and so on, over the driveway and the driveway being not quite.

P

Wide enough for that kind of equipment, so those were the comments we've received for this project.

P

Here and that is it I'd, be happy to answer any questions, I'm sure the owner or developer.

P

And their engineer be happy to ask answer any questions for this as well again, the only action.

P

We're seeking today is a determination regarding the modification request regarding keeping the.

P

Width at 10 feet, as opposed to widening the 12 feet. Thank you. Would you all like to add anything.

A

uh Good morning, yes, um we have already uh asked md for a request for impacting the buffers and.

Q

Based on recommendations from our environmental consultants, uh john canoes, he recommended to.

Q

Do the widening for the first, uh probably 100, 150 feet or more to the uh west of the driveway.

Q

To stay away from the wetlands itself and then switch over and go to to the right when we are.

Q

Away from the wetlands, however, if we decide to widen it to 12 foot, we cannot go to the left for.

Q

Grading and we have to stay on the right side or the east side of the driveway, which is closer to.

Q

The wetlands that those wetna is like that finger yeah right there. Those are the wetlands and so.

Q

So far, md hasn't done anything waiting for today's hearing to see robert with this decision.

Q

And also my concern is that the driveway it drops off, and they just provided me this picture- that it.

Q

Shows like about nine ten inches of drop, uh if you want to have a flat driveway, so it means we have.

Q

To do more disturbance, and uh so the disturbed area would be more and in addition to that carroll.

Q

County has guidelines for storm water management, which is different from the other neighboring or.

Q

Municipalities or mde, and they require to provide the storm water management for the entire site.

Q

And they give you the chance of excluding some areas from storm water management like if you.

Q

Have floodplains you can exclude that or the areas that are not draining into the disturbed.

Q

Area or lod we can exclude that and whatever remains, then you have to provide storm water.

Q

Management, the originally designed the storm water management for the disturbed area, which.

Q

Is about two and some acres, but now, based on the cal county requirement, it's gone up to 12 acres.

Q

We have to provide strong water management for 12 acres and, if you I don't know, if you can see this.

S

This area, which is remains in the remaining portion, and it's uh next to the driveway.

S

If we don't do any widening here, that's not going to be a part of lod or disturbed area.

S

So we are excluded for providing storm water management for almost two and a half acres.

Q

And that would be a very hard put on the property owners to provide the storm water management.

Q

The site is pretty rocky and we're going to be doing a lot of borings to make sure uh we find.

Q

A good place for drywalls and uh by bio, either land, landscape infiltration or fire retentions.

Q

So that's why we're here today to see if we can get a uh variance and not to um increase the.

Q

Driveway with and with the consideration that, uh based on one of the reviewing agencies, they say.

Q

Either cut two feet off the driveway and add four feet because two feet widening will not be stable.

Q

Or at uh four feet to the existing driver instead of cutting two feet off, so it makes it 14 feet.

Q

So basically, it means more imperious area, more disturbed area and more storm water management. So.

Q

Here we respectfully request your approval to stay, keep the driver at 10 feet and I'm not a farmer.

Q

But my grandfather was a farmer and when you have farming equipment, it's all muddy and goes through.

Q

Debt and everything and driving a part of the uh farm equipment on the grass. I don't think it's.

Q

Going to be that important to make that drive a 12 foot wide to keep the neighbor in the north happy.

O

Anything else on there you'd like that.

R

I don't understand why the driveway would need to be wine to allow access for the farm equipment.

R

When the farm equipment's been used in the same driveway for 28 years, that I've been there.

T

The actual right away was 50 years ago before she bought the property, and it was just dark.

T

You purchased it probably about 30 years ago it was gravel for several.

T

Years till then, she put a 10-foot driveway on has since had it resurfaced, and nowhere.

T

During that time, had it ever come up that he needed wider would like to see it wider.

T

At all, um it's never been a problem. I don't know where right away also means we have to.

T

Give it into certain condition and maintain it and, of course, and obviously our core thing here.

T

Is the the md wouldn't give us a ruling like you said, because they understood we were put in.

T

A position here says: well we're not going to get involved because they may not need to get involved.

T

So that that's our concerns um and then, like I said the further up, you go, there's drop offs as.

T

Much as eight feet, if you go two feet, eight inches. Rather, if you go two feet wider, it.

T

Gets even more the further out you go um if you have to go to four additional four feet.

T

And and honestly for the last year and a half he used to farm the fields there for grass, he.

T

Hasn't been mowing those, since we disturbed it to do the what the perk test, because he doesn't.

T

Want damaged equipment and prior to that, the last time he made me saw a piece of equipment.

R

Three four years, because he actually has access off of every road north. A.

T

Little further up is, and if you saw into one picture, the barns and everything were there.

T

In the middle, so he can reach them from the other access points too, but again we're not.

T

Doing anything, not the student, he has the right away he's free to keep using it right.

T

Have no problem with 10 foot drive, it works well for us. It's just. Thank you for your time.

T

I appreciate it, um do you all have any questions? My only question is, maybe I missed it somewhere.

F

Along the line, but could it be subdivided more at some point, I'm sorry I meant to mention that.

P

Right off the top, this is the last two lots that can be taken so once this subdivision is.

P

Complete there's no further division of the two new lots or the existing parcel. This is going.

T

To be it, it actually could be something about a three right now, but she's elected not to do that.

T

She doesn't want that many hooks back in that area. It only has the two rights two lot rights.

P

Either way because it's three times so, we don't have an issue with a number of users exceeding.

F

The model a question, then, would be for fire fire equipment.

F

Again, I always look down there that guy down there for his answers, that's.

B

One of the reasons why it was changed to 12. yeah.

T

We requested, as she said in her comments from them, and they had no comment. Yeah, that's. Why was.

K

It their comment, or are they okay, from which agency our fire protection, had no comments.

K

But we take no comment to mean: okay, yes, sure, step to the microphone. If you don't mind, please.

U

Stated a little bit earlier, we both store our campers there. Currently I've got a 29.

U

Foot tag along uh tom has a 34 foot fifth wheel and we're able to get in and access.

U

The driveway from emory road north without any issue, excuse me, can you give your name.

C

For the record, just so we have it for the minutes, please, michael o'connell. Thank you.

U

Thank you. Are there any members of the public that would like to comment on this? Mr shaffer.

I

Good morning again, clark schaefer 73 east main street, I'm here on behalf of.

I

Dick weaver, who was here as a farmer and owner, not as a county commissioner, uh first you know.

I

It all sounds great, doesn't it and and easy, but the bottom line is that this property is situated.

I

Such that it apparently has some difficulties, not it can't meet the requirements. It's just that.

I

It would be difficult and you've heard the horror stories and believe me.

I

I do this kind of work for a living. I've heard the horror stories we've got to comply with stormwater.

I

Management, do you understand how onerous that is, yeah cost money? Doesn't it but you've got to.

I

um This property is situated such that apparently it's somewhat difficult and more expensive to.

I

Put in the required county driveway now from the weaver's standpoint, here's a couple: here's here's.

I

A question question number one is: why was you just heard? 28 years we knew there was an easement there.

I

We knew this guy's fine, don't worry about him, he's going to be fine! Well, why doesn't didn't you show.

I

The easement on your submittals, which, by the way, it's required in your code that all easements are.

I

Rights of way of record or on or across a parcel being, subdivided shall be shown on the preliminary.

I

Plan the final plan and the final subdivision plot. Well, it was just pointed out to you this morning.

I

That, yes, there is an easement, but no it's not on the plan because it wasn't shown on the plan.

I

um It should have been shown on the plan. It's a 20-foot easement recorded in the land records on.

I

Behalf of the the weaver family to get access to a farm parcel which, by the way, the the access is.

I

Not restricted to form to agricultural uses, it's just a 20-foot right-of-way.

I

um So that being said, uh the weavers have experienced uh access issues and before we came in.

I

Here dick weber was showing me a video of a camper, a large camper which maybe one of the ones just.

I

Referred to that had some difficulty getting back there on the 10 feet had to go across the grass as.

I

It got back there, so your code says extraordinary hardship. You've heard a lot of allegations about.

I

What two feet of asphalt, how how onerous that is uh it doesn't I I submit to you that it may not.

I

Be that honorous, the bottom line, is it's going to cost more to put to put it in there and it's.

I

True, you could have left, they could have left this gravel. Mr weaver would be fine with gravel access.

I

But they chose apparently at some point to put in a 10 foot wide driveway and now they.

I

Want to subdivide and when you subdivide, you need to meet the requirements. um Luckily, for.

I

Them they have fee simple road access. I don't know if that was carved out or not, but uh the.

I

12-Foot driveway should be required here, and it's not enough to just conjure up these problems that.

I

May occur because of qualities that exist on their property. You know a wet area, well, every property.

I

Comes with its own unique set of challenges and circumstances, and anybody that's ever done.

I

Development knows that they restrict and make it more expensive or less expensive. Your development.

I

um We we object and oppose any uh lessening of the standards for the width of the driveway.

I

Thank you, mr chair. I just have one question to make sure I understand I'm getting a little bit.

A

Lost on the failure to show and easement, how does that relate to the width of the driveway.

Q

um I may answer that, please, let me ask mr schaefer first and then certainly I'm sorry well, it doesn't.

I

It it relates to the fact that the drawing was submitted without an acknowledgment of.

I

A property right of an adjoining property owner does it have anything directly to do with uh no.

A

It doesn't it's just that we we, the the staff, wouldn't have known about that unless mr weaver.

I

Noticed it uh and pointed it out and then came to me and I looked it up in the land records.

I

um For your information- maybe you don't know this or not, but the engineer might need to not jot this.

I

Down it's 574 at 253 is the first deed 83-22 at 287.. These are these are deeds that are on.

I

Record that are required to be acknowledged, for obvious reasons um and and the the final plot.

I

uh And there's there's lots of plots out there and if I don't know how often you read.

I

Them I read them a lot, but when used in common driveways it'll have this use in common driveway.

I

Users are lots, one three, eight and twelve and 54.74. You know the wheat and the weaver.

I

Parcel so that everybody knows and recognizes uh other people's rights into use. The driveway.

I

um If I'm, if I may, the plan didn't show it when the plan was submitted. However, the legal documents.

P

And the title certificate and the deed history did show that he's meant. So I can't say that it.

P

Was an oversight of the surveyor compared to a miscommunication, with the attorney who was.

P

Doing that research, but what that easement was recognized when the plan was submitted with the.

P

Plan submittal sure. Yes, uh thank you. uh The reason that it wasn't shown. It was not intentional when I.

Q

Signed a plan that everything is shown according to the records, I mean it. What happened this.

Q

Property was surveyed when uh mrs heinman built the house many many years ago by fisher collins.

Q

And when we decided to do when they decided to do subdivision their heart, john malamar, who's.

Q

Another surveyor and he tried and he tried and he couldn't close the property. They had some issues.

Q

With some boundaries on the uh basically uh north side of the property and north and probably east.

Q

Side of the property, so we they finally decided to go back to the fisher call and say come on you.

Q

Did this survey uh you got to do due diligence to close the uh closer survey and give us a.

Q

Good survey and this job was on hold for five six months because they were going back and forth and.

Q

I, as an engineer when I get a drawings to work on it, I get autocad drawings and the autocad drawings.

Q

That I got emailed to me did not show that 20-foot easement and under no circumstances we're trying.

Q

To not show it intentionally the series that I got, it didn't, show it and then later on, as soon as.

Q

There's miss gerson told me about it. We just put it right on put the uh and the title company there.

T

Was a little convoluted like it wasn't stated right on front on her current deed was buried.

T

Somewhere else, it didn't stand out initially, but once he found he brought everybody's attention.

T

Is pearson said it was submitted? We admitted it first thing today, even though it's not a drone.

T

Yeah, there's a little more history to all this, since this began.

T

um And I'm you know, I didn't realize lawyers are going to be here. I'd have our lawyers.

T

Here, I'd have our our contractor that looked at the driveway. Maybe we would have pushed.

T

Md to make a decision because they said we're going to take a backstep because.

T

We don't even have to let's see what the board decides since you're asking for this variance.

T

um But the issue before is today is pretty narrow, um so all of those things really are.

A

Background for us, but the real question is a lot more background: noise, yeah and I'm not sure we.

T

Need to know all of that right now right exactly so go ahead! Okay, mr weaver! I think you wanted to.

A

Say something to us: yeah uh dick weaver uh joining property owner. I just want to ask to.

V

Stick to the code every time we get use in common driveways, not with these people, but.

V

The second generation third generation as a house, gets sold these issues pop up. All I'm.

V

Asking to be done right, especially through the wetlands right off the bat not later. Thank you.

A

So um I was speaking from myself. I appreciate all of the comments uh from everyone. It's been.

A

Very helpful in understanding the context always helps to fill in the picture and and obviously.

A

We'll have a broader discussion, the the statute, I think matters, because it's what gives us the.

A

Power to either decide or not decide or to make a accommodation or not make an accommodation. And so.

A

um And mr schaefer had mentioned the extraordinary hardship that and and that's correct. Obviously it.

A

But it also has other provisions too. It says where the planning commission finds.

A

That, because of unusual circumstances of shape and topography or other physical features,.

A

Or conditions of the proposed subdivision or because of the nature of adjacent developments.

A

Extraordinary hardship may result from strict compliance with the uic design requirements.

A

Of this section and the development review manual, there may be granted a modification when requested.

A

By the subdivider or developer, and then it goes on to say, however, no such modifications shall be.

A

Granted, which will have the effect of nullifying the intent and purpose of the master plan. The.

A

Zoning regulations, this chapter or any other pertinent rules, regulations or laws of the county.

A

And then it's so that's that's the framework we have to work within. It goes on to say it.

A

Prior to considering such requests, the planning commission shall refer the matter for technical.

A

Agency review, which will include the office of public safety, and I take it all of that.

A

Spin correct those were the four agencies that are referred to prior and no comment. The only comment.

P

We had again was that and I'll note too, that the office of planning found the request consistent.

P

I believe, let me read their language. Everything else was literally just no comment. This one stated.

P

Well, engineering reviews response was the one that I read previously, where they stated that the.

P

Widening of this two feet would cause maintenance issues was the only comment that they had.

P

Office of planning stated the same thing that you just read that no such modification shall be.

P

Granted, which will have the effect of nullifying the intent and purpose of the master plan. The.

P

Above reference subdivision plan proposes about 20-foot white pullover, a t turn around.

P

And currently a 12-ft wide driveway, the shared the requested 10 foot portion of the driveway.

P

It's approximately 1050 feet long modification requests from 12 to 10 foot wide use in common.

P

Driveway will not have the effect of nullifying the intent or purpose of a 2014 carroll county.

P

Master plan 2019 amended, so everything else was literally no comment. Theirs was.

P

Stating that there is no issue that it is in performance with the master plan.

P

And then again, engineering stated that the two foot widening would be a maintenance issue.

A

Thank you so the way I read this is that we, if we find that because of either unusual circumstances,.

A

Of shape and topography or other physical features or conditions of the proposed subdivision.

A

Or because of the nature of adjacent development's, extraordinary hardship may result from strict.

A

Compliance, so you know, are there unusual circumstances of shape and topography or.

A

Other physical features or conditions of the proposed subdivision in this case the lane.

A

um You've you've talked about the drop off the wetlands and um the fact that widening it two feet.

A

uh Causes their compaction issues can be without be dealt with by cutting it back two feet and then.

A

Having four feet- um and I guess the question is: does that constitute extraordinary hardship.

A

Or not, the code doesn't really tell us what extraordinary hardship is.

A

um And mr schaefer is making the case that this is an issue that comes up lots of times in lots.

A

Of circumstances that doesn't mean it's not extraordinary hardship doesn't mean. It is um so.

A

I think that's something that that, um but that's the framework that we have to look at this in.

A

um And I think in my mind at least, it boils down to whether this drop-off and the potential.

A

Impact on the wetlands of widening would constitute an extraordinary uh hardship.

A

And I think it's a close case uh honestly, I mean we've seen other examples of where.

A

It's obviously an extraordinary hardship. This would be less so, but these are hardships are.

A

The extraordinary well that's expensive, yeah quite well, and it's going to cause long term.

A

We haven't brought up the costs necessarily, but what what again and like I said if I'd.

T

Known we could brought lawyers and I could had estimates to go okay, it's going to be this, but.

T

What's extraordinary, it's all a thousand dollars is a lot to somebody. A hundred thousand dollars.

T

That's right: where is it? Where is that line right right and the short answer is: there's probably no.

A

Bright line test, so we have to weigh all of these things in the broader context and that's why the.

A

Broader discussion, I think, is useful, um so let me stop talking and see.

F

I would say my one question is, I would imagine the weaver property is in agm preservation. Currently.

F

No, no, so if he has a right away, he could actually add two more houses to that or three more houses.

F

To get to six for a common use driveway am I correcting that another comment. Wait a minute.

A

Let's uh let me have kirsten respond first, so when I was doing the research on this property.

P

Our records indicate that and property lines here are very difficult to see. Here we go there.

P

Are multiple parcels that are owned by the weaver family? This parcel here in petite, not the little.

P

One the trying to get my mouse to the right spot this one right here. This parcel right here used.

P

To be part of the property, that's currently being subdivided. I might have the paperwork with me, but.

P

That property at one point in time, was deeded over to the properties currently owned by mr weaver.

P

um And that was deeded over as an agricultural parcel, not for residential development.

P

I'm not sure if I have any oh, I do yeah, so it's specified in our records. As for farming, the.

P

Purpose was for farming if it was processed in a different manner and it wasn't specified for.

P

Farming it that possibly could have been utilized for a subdivision or something of that nature. But.

P

From what our records indicate here and again, that was not something that was that's not part.

P

Of this subdivision process right, so I was just noticed during this review process that.

P

Our records indicate that that parcel was deeded over for farming, so now transfer lots of crochet.

I

I was going to say that's not to say that the other properties in the area don't have.

P

Residential development, but that's something that would have to be reviewed in detail if and when.

P

Something were proposed, so I just wanted to note that that the property that has the right-of-way.

P

Currently is restricted to farming based on our records, but again, like mr schaefer just noted,.

P

There is a possibility, if there's a land rights, otherwise they can be moved around. So there.

A

Potentially could be, potentially, it would have to be reviewed at the time that it was requested.

A

Again, I don't want to make more noise, but, mr off, you brought the point about the subdivision.

T

We actually had a conversation when we started all this with mr weber, who, at the time, wanted.

T

To buy a parcel from us from miss heinemann and she said she wasn't interested from that.

T

Day on that's when the problems began and the comment he in during one of these conversations.

T

Was look, sell me some land I'll, put everything in ag preserve because we know that's what you.

T

Want- and I honestly said, and we don't care what you do with your property, it's your property! You.

T

Have the right to do well, I've already found out. I can subdivide up to 14 lots through.

T

All this land over here and I'm just going to do that. Had you not asked that question.

T

I wouldn't have brought this up, but that was a conversation we had on a sunday morning on his lot.

T

When we just got and brought all this to his attention, so maybe there was some intent there.

I

So uh I object to that characterization. I do not object to the fact that if, if there.

I

Was a factual conversation, but I object to the characterization of that's when the problems.

I

Began the problem began when uh you, the property, did not have enough, apparently characteristics.

I

To allow them to meet the county code, mr weaver is a neighboring property owner with an recorded.

I

Easement over a portion of this property he's entitled to object. If that's a problem, then that.

I

Is a problem but there's no uh a credible basis for the fact that this is generated by some kind.

I

Of uh uh uh anger or uh ill will he's trying to get. He has some issues getting in through.

I

His farm field over that easement even now, uh so that's all right all right, so I think let me.

A

Cut off the discussion now, let us talk about it. I think we have a good picture of the circumstances.

A

um Matt, did you have any other questions on that? Michael, do you have any.

F

I said the only comment I would have is that, as a farmer, 10 foot is not enough, for anything is 12.

F

Yeah, well, it's better. I mean most ag. Equipment is well some of it's up to 15, but most of it's.

F

Under 12., but so is there there's a easement on the adjoining property too. Am I correct? Is that.

L

What you said, the easement that we're referring to here runs from the public road north emory road.

P

And this property line here that goes straight to where it meets this corner about 530 some.

P

Feet long, that's the full length of the easement. It literally goes from the public road to the.

P

Very uh westernmost corner of the prop of the weaver property: okay, and how wide again.

P

20 yeah from the property line, okay,.

W

I've got a question jim. I guess this goes to you.

W

um Is there any reason for us to require this drawing to be updated to show the easement so.

W

That it's pro it properly reflects the the weaver uh rights. I I don't believe so. As chairman walther.

X

Said the issue before you is pretty narrow and it's laid out in 155.025l, which is a modification.

X

It's not a variance, it's a modification, and I just wanted to make that clear. So you're.

X

um Decision has to be made within the guidelines of that subsection and easement not being shown on.

X

A plan doesn't um doesn't erode his rights in any way right. Okay really affect the decision. That's.

X

Before the commission right now all right, thank you, and I will note also that that again, it was an.

P

Oversight that it wasn't included in the drawing, but it was included in the documentation. So this.

P

Will be merged and, yes, you will have. We will see that drawing updated to show that he's been.

L

We've um seen modifications to other properties and I think we need to be cautious of what we.

L

Consider hardships because we've definitely modified others with maybe a similar.

L

Instance, so meaning granted the modification yeah yeah right. It's it's not uncommon.

A

To have these requests made the circumstances in each each one is different and we try.

A

To take all of those into account, so it's not a one size fits all. Certainly.

A

So I'll I'll lay out sort of where I come down on this and you can agree with me or you can.

A

Disagree with me, um I I tend to come down on the side that um I think that the the shape.

A

And the topography, given the length of the of the driveway and all of the circumstances here.

A

um You know it's a close call in my mind, but I do believe it meets the extraordinary hardship.

A

uh Standard, as I said, it's not a bright line in my mind. Each each case is different. It's.

A

Not just hardship, it's extraordinary hardship, so extraordinary modifies hardship. So it's something.

A

More than just it's inconvenient, I think this is more than inconvenient. I think, trying to come up.

A

With a workable solution to go from 10 feet to 12, feet is going to be not only extraordinarily.

A

Expensive, which, in and of itself as we see these things is not I mean I don't think that's enough.

A

Just to say, it costs a lot of money to comply. It's in good condition. Now, according to the.

A

Pictures it has the extra space for pull over. It has the turnaround it. The number of users.

A

Is not a problem but but to add two feet to this. Under these circumstances, where the drop-offs are.

A

As they've been shown to be, and the continuing maintenance problem and a disturbance of.

A

The environmental areas, I think all are enough for me to at least get it across the line to.

A

Extraordinary hardship, but just barely that's me, I'm I'm one. I don't even get to vote so, but that's.

A

My that's my sense of this yeah. I do not disagree with your assessment. I think um again, it is.

L

Just on that border of hardship, as I look at the topography that is.

L

Being from a developing background, that is hard to.

L

Increase something and not have issues with it and stormborn management right, yeah,.

A

Yeah, michael, what do you think my my concern is precedent and um the you know, as we heard in.

K

Testimony that the code is there for a reason, and we keep one uh getting approached for.

K

Allowances to the coup, so you know I have a code. Maybe that's harsh, but there's the code to me is.

K

Is a standard it was established for a reason whether it be for farm equipment or whatever.

K

And then we we get, we get proposals have discussions to have that variances or.

K

Changes made because of circumstances. I hear the um circumstance hardship here, but my my concern is.

K

That we, just you know, precedent, is keeps on being established that the code really is not strong.

K

Not you know it's, it's not something that um is sound for basis decision-making basis from irish.

A

The one thing I would I mean this is our discussion, so I think, and it's.

A

Really healthy because we we're gonna have another one of these in about five minutes.

A

um And they that won't be the last one you're. um I take your point and I agree.

A

The code set standards- and in this case you know, 12 feet- is the standard.

A

um And I know mr schaefer was making the argument on behalf of mr weaver. You know.

A

Just apply the code have the code requirements. The code also has modification and that's part.

K

Of the code, if then else yeah that's right and I and I agree with you very much on the idea of.

A

Precedent and that's why I was trying to be clear to say I don't think saying something is expensive.

A

Is enough to ever meet the extraordinary hardship standard, because every development is expensive.

A

In its own way, we recognize that we try not to hold things up, but they're always expensive right.

A

um And so I think it takes something more and from my standpoint from a presidential standpoint,.

A

I think it's got to be more than it costs a lot and even it cost a lot to maintain it here. I think.

A

Keeping that in mind your point in mind, I think there is more. There is something more.

A

Beyond, as I said, I think just in my mind barely enough to make it more, but I am.

A

Very mindful of the presidential value that you were raising and I think that's important, always.

A

Not did you anymore, where do you? No, I I you know I I don't if it was just three houses is.

F

One thing, but then having the other right away and it could possibly have three more houses on that.

F

Common in use, or unless they came to us, they could ask for a waiver of that because we get.

F

Those all the time also um I, I really think it should be 12, because that's what the code is.

F

And it's a long driveway with turns in it, for you know, emergency equipment to get in so okay.

L

When was the property blacktopped, I mean it was dirt and gravel and.

R

um 96 97 was the first time we paved it, so it was able to be operated with the 10 feet.

L

And farm equipment that could go over it at that point in time is that correct never had.

R

A problem it was dirt when we moved in and then the gravel for the you know the building stuff.

R

um And then a couple of good rains washed it out and then that's when we had it paved.

L

But my point is when it was paved um the farm equipment from mr weaver's. Never never a problem.

L

So he did go absolutely. It did go yes, okay! Yes, that was my question. I'm sorry, no yeah, okay,.

L

Okay, um I personally am still concerned with that topography, adding two feet across there.

L

What it's going to do? I've seen driveways that do exactly what the planning department said.

L

They do crumble, it's hard to build a base that will keep that straight.

A

And that leads you in favor of the extraordinary energy yeah pretty much. Can I ask a quick question.

F

Sure I mean I've seen a lot of driveways where, if they've been widened, but maybe they just put.

F

Stone around the corners and stuff like that, could it be stoned the extra part or does it.

F

Have to be asphalt, so it's all the same. The use in common driveway standards require the 12 foot.

P

Wide paved so adding two feet of gravel on the side would not meet those requirements still.

Q

That's great and if I may add, if you just put gravel dirt because of topography, a couple of.

Q

Rings is going to wash it away. Okay, it's not going to stay there. I have your thoughts. I have nothing.

W

To add to the conversation, I will echo what, as a relatively new member to this commission.

W

It's amazing to me how we there's a line on the pirates of caribbean. You know that there's.

W

Really, no code they're more like guidelines, um there's no rules and I'm concerned about.

W

The erosion too, I mean why have them, I mean we have county staff that does a great job of.

W

Developing them and then we we reduce things all the time um you know. At the same time, I.

W

See exactly what what you're requesting here, it makes sense that we would do it in this instance.

W

um uh So I I haven't, I think I've added and I said I had nothing to add so I'll shut up.

A

So we'll pass you we'll pause there for a moment and uh stephen willow yeah. I mean I agree with.

Y

Mr kane and mr huff, you know just especially with uh presidents and in to me it becomes a slippery.

Y

Slope, it's like okay, so yes, the topography and then that's our interpretation of what difficult.

Y

Topography is I mean we all know. Carroll county is not a level county in general, so I I just think.

Y

That it creates such a slippery slope and the basic code is there for a reason, and the code says.

Y

12 feet, so you know why: why have it if we're always going to continually.

Y

Make it you know easier or more difficult for people. You know if I was a mediator. I would.

W

Say make this 12 feet to where the easement ends and then 10 feet the rest of the way.

W

But that that's so arbitrary, I I don't like that either and so again I'm adding when I.

W

Said I didn't have anything to add when I was sitting here listening to it so well, let's make it 12 feet to the corner. You know to that to that bend, and that gives me a level.

W

Of comfort for the emergency vehicles for the for the for the farm equipment and everything.

W

Else, but the problem here is the extraordinary problem. If there is one is at the front of the.

W

Property there, and so again that doesn't give you the relief you're looking for so again, if.

W

I was looking for a middle ground, that's what I would would do as a mediator, but again we're.

W

Not trying to mediate anything here, we're trying to come up with a decision that makes sense so.

W

I don't know yeah, I I um still lean towards the county. The planning department, stormwater.

L

Management, they they've all kind of indicated that there is an issue with adding two feet. There.

L

um And they are the experts, so it's not us saying that you know this. Is the problem um just go ahead.

L

And don't do it it's it's! We're being advised that there is a potential problem to do that.

A

Yeah, I think that's a good point and look um to your points, um stephen. I I share your concern.

A

About eroding what the code says, but I think there's a modification provision in the code.

A

For a reason, and it's to take these things into account now, whether they meet the standard or not,.

A

I think really technically that's the question today. Is this an extraordinary hardship in your.

A

Mind, if not, why not you don't have to say it out loud? If, yes, why, yes, again, you don't have.

A

To say it out loud, but when you vote um it seems to me that's the when you distill it down to its.

A

Essence, that's really what we have to decide today. Does this meet the extraordinary hardship standard.

A

And every case is different. It's going to be fact intensive. Every time in five minutes, it's going.

A

To be fact, intensive again, so um we've we've. This is important to you very important. It's.

A

Important to us, it's important to us for this case and it's important to us for the next case.

A

um So I appreciate everybody hanging in there while we, while we work through this and make.

A

Sure we understand, thank you, the implications here for you and the and we and we do appreciate the.

A

Implications to you either, however, this vote comes out. I want you to know. We've we've. I think we've.

A

Looked at it from every side, we can to be as fair as possible and the way the competing interests.

A

Mr weaver's competing interests as well, taking into account what he said. I think siri is talking.

A

She wants to vote, you said we take it seriously, that's what it was yeah. That's right, mr.

X

Chairman, if, if I may, I just wanted to address the commission's concerns about precedent and eroding.

X

The code and I absolutely understand your concerns with that, but um land use law and jurisprudence.

X

Is a sort of fickle thing and there's a balance between the rigidity of sort of the bright lines.

X

That everyone would like, with the flexibility, to allow property owners to use their property.

X

um How they would like so um over the years case law has developed. That says that you know whether.

X

For certain issues in land use that it's not just specifically rigid that the code says x.

X

So therefore, it's x and no matter what you can't do, y there over the years case law and different.

X

Statutes have allowed modifications, and it's not just willy-nilly modifications based on.

X

Some arbitrary standards on how you feel on this particular day. It's modifications based off of.

X

Usually specific enumerated factors that you have to take into consideration, so it's not so much.

X

As eroding the code or eroding the authority, it's using your authority to come up with the.

X

What you feel is best, um so I just wanted to leave the members um with that.

A

And uh mr drum thank you, I was trying to say that you just said it better than I did and so.

A

I appreciate that I was trying to give fidelity to the code, including the modification provision.

A

And the factors that we're supposed to take into account when we exercise discretion and so with.

A

That I think go ahead james! No, I was just going to say um matt's concern about future development.

L

I don't think that's something that we should be factoring in here that that's not part of.

L

What this request is about, so I mean it's legitimate yeah. I don't think that's for a.

L

Future time I think yeah, I'm gonna kind of cut off the comments. I appreciate you raising your hand.

A

um I think it's with us now and um I think we're probably at a point where, in all fairness.

A

To everybody we ought to see if somebody wants to make a motion one way or the other see. If there's.

A

A second: if there's not somebody can make a motion in the other direction, see if there's a second.

A

um And see see how I think everybody's made a couple of you on your fence a little bit.

A

um Now it's time to stop fence sitting and uh well you can, you can abstain, but to you.

A

Know this is an important issue and to uh take a boat okay, I notion that we.

L

Reduce the um required requirement from the 12th seat to 10 feet for the e. What is the for m210046.

L

Hinman property for their right-of-way or their use in common driveway. Okay, so we have a motion.

A

Basically, to agree to the requested modification correct: is there a second to that motion.

Z

I'll secondary, we have a motion, we have a second. Is there further discussion now's the time if you.

A

Want to raise another issue all right, then why don't we take a vote? uh A roll call vote. Please.

AA

Berkner, yes, mr lester, yes, mr kane.

AA

Y

I think I'm going to abstain too. So, as a matter of does that pass or yes.

C

um Well, two are in favor three abstentions, so I I believe in this case the chair would.

C

Need to vote to make the decision because me and majority of the members okay, I vote yes,.

C

All right, please let the record reflect three or in favor and three, and there are three abstentions.

C

um But the motion passes passes for three majority votes: okay,.

A

So your modification request is granted. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you.

T

For all your time, sorry, throughout the wall, good luck be good. Neighbors.

P

In depth, consideration who was the three? Thank you so much.

A

That was a good conversation on a lot of different places.

A

Okay, we're going to stand in recess, we'll come back in 10 minutes.

A

Everyone well we're back in session.

A

And move on to item number 12., which is the collins property and it's case, number p-22-00.

A

33 it's still morning so good morning, good morning, amy barcroft with the bureau of development review.

D

I'm here with the engineer and developer I'll, let them introduce themselves. Oh yes, I'm linda.

AB

Alexander with clsi we're the engineer of the property mark for zara, with clear ridge developers.

AC

The owner and developer. Thank you. The subject. Property is located on the west side of hodges.

D

Road north of barthol road election district 5., this plan is before you today for a consideration.

D

Of a request for modification to the maximum number of users for the use in common driveway.

D

In a residential zoning district from five to six users and action is required of you today,.

D

The subject property is 15.77 acres, north of bartholo road near the intersection of hodges.

D

Road, it lies in the r40 r-20. Excuse me: zoning district, like most of the properties in the.

D

Surrounding area to the north lies 29 acres, which was previously conveyed from the subject: property.

D

To the carroll county commissioners for hodges park,.

D

In 1971, a four lot subdivision for the subject: property was approved and it's known as the.

D

Sterling collins development, those four lots- border hodges road on the eastern property line.

D

The plot recorded for that small subdivision included 50 feet for future roadway and that.

D

Was noted on the plat between lots, two and three, and that maintains access to hodges.

D

Road for the remaining land, the property is inside the existing water service area.

D

But outside the sewer master plan with no future service planned, the property lies inside of both.

D

The priority funding areas and designated growth area on july 18th, a formal request.

D

From the developer was received by the bureau, accompanied by a plan of future subdivision and.

D

Depicting seven new lots and one existing building right on the 15.77 acres, this request compels the.

D

Commission to consider a modification to the county code, which would increase the maximum.

D

Number of users on a newly proposed use in common driveway from five to six, the maximum number of.

D

Users on a use in common driveway is five in the residential zone. According to the code, this really.

D

Really uh are familiar with the use in common driveway standards and criteria, along with section.

D

L for modifications where the planning commission finds that because of unusual circumstances, shape.

D

Into topography, physical conditions of the proposed subdivision or nature of adjacent.

D

Development, extraordinary hardship may result from strict compliance with these design requirements.

D

All the lats will have a private septic system, and the health department will approve up to.

D

Seven new lots: this proposed use in common drive will be constructed 16 feet wide with a cul-de-sac.

D

At the terminus and is proposed to serve six lots, this is above the standard. 12 foot required width.

D

A pullover is depicted on the plan near the midpoint of the drive and that's required for.

D

Drives exceeding 500 feet in length, the proposed length of this drive is 750 feet. Two additional.

D

Lots are proposed, they will front hodges road and are proposed with single user driveways.

D

The waiver request package included a letter of requests from the developer and the plan. It was.

D

Distributed to resource management, office of public safety, department of planning.

D

And engineering for comment, all agencies have responded with no objection to the relief request.

D

Engineering review noted that this is contingent on site distance being achieved currently a stone.

D

Mailbox not owned by the developer impedes site distance to the left and it would need.

D

To be relocated or removed, my understanding is: discussions are underway with that owner to.

D

Relocate the mailbox to obtain sight distance, the staff and developer are requesting a determination.

D

From the planning commission today regarding the request for modification of the number of users.

D

From five to six, and once a determination has been made, a concept plan of the subdivision will.

D

Be reviewed by technical agencies and will come before you again for concept approval.

D

Thank you. Thank you. Would you like to add anything.

AB

um Just that we we put a lot of our reasonings for the request in the letter that we sent.

AB

So I don't really have any other information to add, except that we did speak to the homeowner.

AB

That has the mailbox, that's a question and we are going in during the process. We're.

AB

Going to be probably relocating his driveway so that there will be adequate sight, distance.

AB

That would need to happen whether we were putting six users, five users or three users.

AB

On this driveway, so it was something we'd have to deal with um the reason that we've asked for the.

AB

Request we haven't completed the perks yet back there, so we did end up with some bad area that.

AB

You can't the plan shows some black holes, which you're not really on your information, doesn't show.

AB

It but there's heavy water table down through there so accessing through that environmental.

AB

Area to put any additional, driveways or any other use in common would would be a stability issue as.

AB

Well, as just a construction situation for water lines or roadways, any stormwater management so.

AB

To minimize any of the environmental impacts and to minimize any of the forced conservation.

AB

Removal and stuff like that, we felt that a use and common driveway with the six users was still the.

AB

Best option versus some type of public road or multiple use in commons to get back into there.

AB

um And we're here to answer any questions, certainly no. We appreciate that.

K

um Just for clarification so that the common driveway will service five, okay, so right now.

AB

We can come in with five users on that driveway. We're asking for an additional six house on there.

AB

um The normal driveway would be a 12 foot wide we're proposing a 16 foot. We are putting a.

AB

Call to when we say cul-de-sac we're putting a roundabout at the end of that. That would allow.

AB

For the fire trucks to get around any any heavy moving equipment, whatever would need to come back.

AB

That driveway delivery trucks or whatever can get around that that that turnaround at the end.

AB

Is just as big as a cul-de-sac is at the end of a public road and then there's two other.

K

Residences, yes, they're off the hodges road, so there's a tip there will be internal team yeah.

A

um Any other questions, no, I was just going to say our concern is the.

L

Use in common right away that we're looking at right here, right: okay, yeah! So in this case the.

A

Issue isn't the width which looks fine, it's the number of users, but in some ways it's still the.

A

On some ways, it's still the same standard that we have to look at uh under the same modification.

A

Provisions so we're still distilling it down to the same issue of.

A

Extraordinary hardship taken into consideration circumstances of this property.

A

Number of users, not the width. um If I've read the report, I read a lot of stuff for today, so.

A

I might not be remembering the details, but um if you, if you stuck with five and you added a.

A

Another driveway somewhere else was that was that an option in this so the way the property lays out.

AB

um And you can see the the perk areas that are along hodges road. Those houses fit pretty well.

AB

To try in order to get that other lot, you need to cram a third lot along hodges road, okay,.

AB

Significantly reducing the lot width, which right now would be smaller than some of the other lots.

AB

That are long hodges road, because the existing subdivision obviously was developed in front.

AB

Of us with certain widths, so there becomes a question of whether there's enough room to.

AB

Actually do that before you'd start running into the same situation, where you're running into perks.

AB

That wouldn't perk along there because of that water table. That's coming up through the property.

AB

We already have lost we, we initially had seven users coming into that drive using common driveway.

AB

um But, based on the purpose that we have done already out, there, which were amazingly, were done.

AB

In june, and we still hit a heavy water table, I'm about five feet- um those black holes all.

AB

Signify water table problems, so there's not going to be any more perks down that way. So.

AB

We looked at a possibility of sticking within the use in commons, but then we were running two of.

AB

Them in and it didn't feel like a community at that point, you had lots backing up against the.

AB

Use in common driveway, as opposed to facing it and had driveways on each side of the of the of.

AB

The houses- and it just did not lay well for having that community of those little houses back there.

AB

Well, they're not going to be little houses, but the houses back, that's kind of where we put it in.

AB

The other thing was when coming up through those existing houses that have been there for years.

AB

It's pretty flat, we wouldn't be putting any type of public road up through there, we'd be putting.

AB

Nothing more than the wider driveway that they're kind of used to seeing anyway, so we were trying.

AB

To keep the impact to those homeowners down by putting the larger use in common in, but not a.

AB

Full-Blown public road to get back there for literally one more house, so it's just that's.

AB

Kind of the considerations and a lot of it was environmental right. That's what I was going to.

AB

Say a lot of it was an environmental consideration when this property was originally zoned, r20.

AB

Years ago it's been zone like that for the last 30 40 years. I'm sure at one point there.

AB

Was probably going to be public sewer and it, and there was an intention for public road.

AB

That never happened over the years and it's and it's a pretty mature woods back there. So.

AB

um So so the in so if we were to run a second use in common back on the on through the other.

AC

uh Road frontage area: that's when we would get into that environmental area we'd likely.

AC

Not be able to get the perks, we need and we'd be putting a road and a water line and doing.

AC

Construction and environmentally sensitive area that might not be stable. You know, as opposed to.

AC

uh You know keeping that area in forest retention, so that was the idea and I think the area where.

AC

We're proposing to put this driveway, you can see it on the picture. There's the picture down.

AC

Below it already has an existing, I guess you know an entrance, so it's it's been.

AC

Well recognized for years that that there's going to be a driveway going through there.

A

um Let me just ask: are there any members of the public that would like to speak on this matter?.

A

Yes, sir, I'm going to the public but marty hackett with clsi guys. This is a a very unique situation.

AD

We have a piece of property, that's zoned, r20. um All the lots are going to be all well and septic.

AD

Same situation was either agricultural or conservation. They allow seven users all the.

AD

Time these lots are basically the size equal to what you see in those zones. So it's and and.

AD

Maybe linda touched upon that why I had to step outside, but um so you have a developer that wants.

AD

To widen the driveway to accommodate you know the extra user. Well in those other zones, they could go.

AD

To seven and still have a 12 foot driveway, so we we just think it's a very unique situation.

AD

And it works well. Thank you. Thank you, any other members of the public that would like to speak.

A

Particular questions.

F

I'll just say something real quick, I mean I saw the drawings before I looked at the.

F

One map that has a blue line on it so because I was thinking okay well, you could have added one.

F

Of those houses come out on the other side, but you know, I think, with the extra width.

F

Of drive the driveway, it's surprised the best for everything, the same bag and the turnaround.

A

You know looking at what under the code, you heard you, I don't know if you were here for.

A

Our last discussion, um so you know what what sort of satisfies the code, at least in my mind,.

A

I think your letter does a nice job setting that out. I appreciate you know submitting that, and so.

A

I don't necessarily necessarily need to read all that into the record, but in to my eye and.

A

Also, what matt said when you look at of the um this particular property and and how it's set up.

A

Which we always do in every case to me, it seems like the extraordinary hardship standard is met.

A

Largely because of the I accept what you've put in your.

A

In your letter- and I think that I think that does a nice job of articulating, it.

A

So if there are other questions or comments, the chair would be happy to entertain emotion,.

A

Either accept the request, a modification.

W

I believe we accept the uh modification as proposed a second okay, so we have a.

A

Motion- and we have a second accept and approve the requested modification. Is there further discussion.

A

We'll probably should do a roll call here for consistency.

AA

Mr huff, yes, mrs kirkner, yes, mr lester, yes, mr kane, yes, dr smith, yes, is that the record reflect.

C

That fiber and flavor and the motion carries. Thank you all very much. Thank you very much.

A

To move on to item 13.

A

Which is a concept site plan? This is for 1332, london town and it's case, number s-21-00 27.

AE

Good morning, good morning,.

A

AF

Bureau of development review, as stated I'm before you.

AF

With the next project on the agenda, which is 1332, londontown file, number s-21-0027.

AF

Joined with me are a couple representatives with this project I'll. Let them introduce themselves.

AG

I'm dennis spoil with mackenzie commercial real estate. I represent the leasing for the project.

AE

For 73 east main street westminster maryland 21157. Thank you and good morning.

AH

Bruce lala representing the developer marty hackett clsi welcome to everyone. So what.

AF

This project is proposing is essentially, it is proposing additional paving areas for parking.

AF

And a contractor's equipment storage yard uh on the sides of the buildings and where.

AF

We'll get into that a little bit more, as stated, this is before you as a concept plan. There is.

AF

No action required by the commission with this, however, as with any site development plan, the.

AF

Planning commission may delegate approval of the final site plan to the planning commission chair.

AF

So for those who may be unfamiliar with where this is located, as stated, it is at.

AF

1332 londontown boulevard: this is down in the eldersburg area. If you're looking at.

AF

The map one here this is london town. This road right here is georgetown boulevard.

AF

This is maryland 26., and this right here is maryland 32.

AF

And so the property in question is comprised of two separate parcels uh parcel a which is here.

AF

And parcel b, which is here both of those total, roughly 35 acres and they were recorded back in.

AF

1975 within the london town manufacturing company subdivision, both properties lie within the light.

AF

Industrial i1 zoning district and there are two established access points onto london, town from.

AF

The properties so the first one is located here and then the second one is located here so parcel.

AF

A the larger one is currently comprised of a 284 000 square foot, two-story multi-use building. So.

AF

There are various uses within this building here and there are multiple tenants comprised with.

AF

Those various uses on parcel b, which is this one right here- this is an 81 000 square foot, warehouse.

AF

And the two buildings are currently connected by a gangway, which you can kind of see right here.

AF

There's also a stall water and fire protection pond on parcel a as you can.

AF

See here there are two freestanding signs which I'm going to go to the next slide.

AF

Here so um each sign is at each entrance point, so this sign here is roughly 23 feet tall, and this is.

AF

At the eastern or I'm sorry, the western entrance, and then this sign here is roughly 12 feet tall.

AF

And this is at the eastern entrance, so as I'm gonna go back here go back one more! So if we look.

AF

At some of the adjoining properties, besides the property to the north, which is merit properties,.

AF

And the property to the east, which is the beatty property, all other properties that are join.

AF

This are within that london, town manufacturing company subdivision. All adjoining properties are.

AF

In the 2018 freedom comprehensive plan, they are zoned either light industrial, commercial.

AF

High or residential 20 000, which you can see, that would be the baby property over here. uh If we're.

AF

Looking individually, if we look to the west of the property, that is the eldersburg marketplace, which.

AF

Is a planned commercial center if we look to the east of the property, as stated, this is the baby.

AF

Property, it is currently undeveloped at this point in time. The northern adjoining property is a merit.

AF

Property and this is currently being used as a warehouse and then properties to the south across.

AF

London town are either not developed, or there is one parcel with a stormwater management pond on it.

AF

So we'll go back to this, so um ultimately, the property is fairly flat. Both properties are.

AF

Fairly flat, there is a climb and elevation as you get to the back corner back here. You can also see.

AF

That there is a stream that butts along this property line, as well as a little bit on this.

AF

Property line here, but there are no fema 100 year, floodplain designations on site. With that.

AF

You can see there are some trees, uh essentially a wooded riparian zone.

AF

Around that stream, but the rest of the property is fairly open. Besides the improvements on sites.

AF

And the subject? Property, as well as all adjoining properties, are served by public water and sewer.

AF

So before we get into the meat of the the meat or the meats of the report here, I just want to.

AF

Give some brief history as to how this came to be at this point. So uh through the years there.

AF

Have been three different iterations of site plans on this property in 2006 uh london times.

AF

Distribution center was presented to the planning zoning commission and was granted final approval.

AF

At that time, the project proposed parking area extension to the north and west side of.

AF

The existing building, as well as a building expansion on the rear of the building for.

AF

Trailer storage, although the project received final approval at that time, it was not pursued.

AF

A year after that, in 2007, a project was submitted to the county for review in reference.

AF

To modifications to this existing pond on site, the project was subsequently rescinded and was.

AF

Not pursued through the review process and then a year after that in 2008 planning zoning commission.

AF

Was presented with a project that was very similar to the initial site plan they seen, which.

AF

Showed additional parking around the building, as well as the building expansion, trailer storage.

AF

And again, although the projects received final approval with that, it was not pursued.

AF

So, ultimately, with this iteration of the site plan, now the developer proposes to construct.

AF

A pave parking area on the west side and the north side of the proposed building.

AF

At the junction of these new pavings is a fenced and paved contracts with equipment, storage.

AF

For contractors, building supplies, which is for a future tenant, that's looking to come into the.

AF

Property here now proposed, paving and parking areas are going to be tied to the existing areas.

AF

That are on site now, so they'll have an access point here from this existing parking lot and an.

AF

Access point back here from this existing parking lot. There's no work proposed to the existing.

AF

Buildings on site, with the exception of doors and stairways that are either going to be added.

AF

Or removed to help tie in access points to this existing or I'm sorry, this proposed paving area.

AF

So what this site plan does as well as propose this new paving area, but it also.

AF

Accounts for all uses on the property and it confirms parking adequacy, as stated there's.

AF

Been various iterations of the project through the years, but we don't have an official site.

AF

Development plan for what's currently being used on the site now, so this site plan that.

AF

They're proposing now not only allows them to move forward with what they're proposing, but.

AF

It also shows the county that everything that is on site is per code regulations.

AF

Also, with this state plan, the owner developer is looking to classify both properties so parcel a.

AF

Which is the larger one and parcel b, which is the smaller one here as an industrial park, so per the.

AF

Zoning code and industrial park is defined as the following, and I'm just going to read this verbatim.

AF

From the code, it is a self-contained development area of primarily industrial uses that is cohesive,.

AF

With a common development scheme and approved as a single development plan, which maybe comprised.

AF

Of multiple lots under certain circumstances, it should be noted. An industrial park is only.

AF

Permitted within the light industrial zoning district, which this property currently is zoned.

AF

So with all of that, this request was sent to the zoning administrator for their determination and.

AF

After considerations and discussions with other county employees, the zoning administrator agreed.

AF

With the request and found it appropriate to consider the site and industrial park.

AF

So um as well as what's being proposed on site, and when this was submitted for review.

AF

It was noted that a portion of the parking area encroached into the london town, right-of-way.

AF

Area and so with that with what's being proposed now, the developer will also remove that parking.

AF

Area from the right-of-way and they will have the proper setback of 15 feet from the london.

AF

Town right-of-way, which is in compliance with code, currently there's no parking requirements.

AF

Specific to an industrial park so with this project, a combination of uses and calculations.

AF

Or utilize, and factoring in to figure out what is permitted and permissible on site.

AF

So it should be noted that these calculations are based on what the potential is for this property.

AF

Not what's currently on site, but what could be put on site- and this gets very confusing. So I'm going.

AF

To read a lot of this verbatim from the report, but ultimately the potential uses of the property.

AF

Were split into one of three categories: either a commercial use and industrial use or a warehouse.

AF

And we have various calculations for each of those uses currently within the county code.

AF

So per the zoning code, commercial uses can comprise no more than 20 percent of the land area.

AF

Of the entire industrial park, so what was provided was the square footage of what can be used as.

AF

Industrial and what can be used as commercial that came out to be roughly 180 000 square feet.

AF

They took 20 percent of that to determine what could be used for commercial uses and they applied.

AF

The commercial use um calculation to that they then took the remaining 80, which could be used.

AF

For industrial use and utilize, the industrial use calculation for that and then finally, what.

AF

Was left over was about 185 000 square feet of warehouse which utilized the warehouse calculation.

AF

With all of that being said, after performing all the calculations, it was deemed that 684 parking.

AF

Spaces were required on site with what could be used on this industrial park of the 456 existing.

AF

Parking spaces about 131 spaces were being removed to either allow the connections to.

AF

The additional paving or as part of removing that paving from the existing right-of-way.

AF

The remaining 325 existing parking spaces, combined with what was proposed as 359 parking spaces.

AF

Within this additional paving area, it results in 684 spaces required. So it's right on the money.

AF

As far as what they need to be code, compliant as parking spaces are for the benefit of both parcels.

AF

A and parcels b uh parking, easements and cross easements for access are shown on the site plan.

AF

And are going to be recorded with the final site plan. Another item with this project is that it is.

AF

Currently crossed by a plain major street, which is georgetown extended as the design for georgetown.

AF

Extended is currently outstanding. We don't have a final design for that. There is an estimated.

AF

Approximate area of dedication depicted on site, which you can see by this line here,.

AF

And so, as things move forward with the site plan, we may modify that to if there's any improvements.

AF

In the current design from georgetown extended, but that is what's being shown, and that is what will.

AF

Be provided to the county for the right-of-way for that, as well as that planned major streets.

AF

At these intersection of georgetown, boulevard and londontown boulevard, which is here, is a proposed.

AF

Roundabout as the existing access, the easternmost existing access to the site may be too close to.

AF

That roundabout, as part of this site plan, they are showing to relocate that further west away.

AF

From that roundabout, although it's being shown on their site plan, it's going to be performed.

AF

At a future time, I believe it's stated that that would happen simultaneously with the.

AF

Construction of the roundabout so they're, showing it but they're not going to do it at this time.

AF

So per county code, whenever you have new parking areas, especially when it's going.

AF

To be used at night, then you have to have adequate lighting, uh a sight lighting plan.

AF

For the new parking area is provided within the site development plan, pole mounted lights.

AF

Are proposed and they are proposed to stand at roughly 12 feet tall above grade and building.

AF

Mounted lights are also proposed and will also be mounted about 12 feet above grade, which you can.

AF

See this photometric plan provided and again is provided within the site development plan package.

AF

So with all of that, the plan is exempt from code requirements of floodplain management.

AF

Water resource management has granted conditional approval with additional comments to be addressed.

AF

During the final plans review, the requirements of forest conservation ordinance were adequate.

AF

For constant approval, but will require additional information during the final plan review process.

AF

Approval was granted by the carroll county health department, as well as the bureau of utilities.

AF

A new water line and utility easement is being required for the benefit of parcel b. So if I go.

AF

Back here so currently a new or a water line from london town. It serves both parcels that isn't in.

AF

Compliant with current code, and so the bureau of utilities is requiring an additional water.

AF

Line to be run for the benefit of parcel b, which will be constructed with the site development plan.

AF

Site compliance has stated that the site plan complies with the requirements of maryland.

AF

Accessibility code, the office of public safety has granted approval of the plans, engineering.

AF

Review has granted approval with a traffic impact study not being required to achieve site distance.

AF

At the western entrance, the current sign, that is, there, is going to be relocated so that.

AF

It doesn't block your field of view looking down the road content, stonewater management.

AF

Approval has been granted, stormwater management requirements for the new paving area are being.

AF

Addressed with a submerged gravel wetland which is located back in the corner here,.

AF

And their review, the department of planning determined that the proposed plan is consistent.

AF

With the 2018 freedom community, comprehensive plan, land use designation of light, industrial.

AF

And with the water and sewer master plan, as londontown boulevard is identified as a future.

AF

Sidewalk connection within the bicycle pedestrian master plan, a five foot sidewalk is proposed along.

AF

London town boulevard, which I believe this spans, the entire frontage of the property.

AF

Planning staff also included a recommendation to construct internal sidewalks as well as.

AF

Internal crosswalks, to help, I believe, within the letter, is stated for pedestrian safety. For that.

AF

And finally, the site plan is tested or will be tested and reviewed for adequacy of public.

AF

Facilities in accordance with chapter 155 of county code and before we move forward.

AF

I just want to show some pictures of the site so that you have an idea as to how it looks now.

AF

So this bottom right picture is standing to the west of the building. Looking back where the paving.

AF

Is proposed these two top pictures are looking back or I'm sorry they're. If you're standing where.

AF

The contractors equipment storage area will be. This is looking down the west side of the building.

AF

And this is looking down the rear of the building, and this is a shot of the existing parking area.

AF

Here's a couple more shots on the eastern side of the building. Looking at that connection,.

AF

And this is that gangway that was mentioned earlier in the report.

AF

This is the existing pond that is used for forward management, as well as fire protection.

AF

These three pictures here are of the western entrance.

AF

These three pictures here are of the eastern entrance.

AF

And finally, these are the two signs that are currently on site again to help with.

AF

Sight distance, this sign is going to be relocated to not block the field of view.

AF

So with that I'd be happy to answer any questions, I'm sure the representatives feel the same.

A

Add anything yes, just briefly good.

AE

In here today for this concept review, I really appreciate david's staff report. I think he hit.

AE

Every point that we would have um he alluded to it, but I'll say it: the impetus for this site plan.

AE

Has been additional tenants in this facility that we need to accommodate, and so that's what.

AE

Initiated this process, my clients have only owned this property for the last few years.

AE

So that history of previous site plans, that david mentioned was from the previous owner.

AE

And now it's under new ownership. Since then, um we do not believe that there will be any.

AE

Substantial changes from what you see here to a final plan, so we would request that uh barring.

AE

Any substantial changes to the layout that you do give the chair the authority to approve the.

AE

Final plan, like I said, with the caveat that if any of the county staff comments generate.

AE

A substantial change to the layout, then we will come. We will be happy to come back before.

AE

This board, but given the limited nature of this request, that it's really just to accommodate some.

AE

Additional parking and and storage space in the rear of an existing development. We believe it's.

AE

Appropriate, if this commission would be willing to to grant that authority in the chair and like.

AE

David said, we are here and happy to answer any questions that you might have today. So thank you.

A

um Why don't we are there any members of the public that want to speak to this particular issue.

A

Like there are none, I have a just a quick question on the back, where you're adding the parking um are.

A

There is the idea that they're going to be doors for loading and unloading and that sort of thing.

A

I'm just not real clear on what that space is going to be used for, and the reason I ask is.

A

If it is, I assume they're going to be trucks in and out of there that are going to run up.

A

And down the west side of it, I'm just trying to get a sense of traffic flow around the property.

A

And how well that works with this plan? What do you look like? Yes, the actual, if you look.

AD

At the rear of the building you'll notice, some access points to the building that are.

AD

At garage height, basically they're going to be at grade with the garage doors they accommodate.

AD

um We actually, if you notice the radius of the curbs we actually have it set up for uh to.

AD

Handle tractor trailers to back in there if they need to so we did design for for a larger truck.

AD

The actual there will be a travel way that maintains around that whole area around the.

AD

Building all the way around the building correct, the the storage yard will will have.

AD

Gates but they'll have gates on both sides, so they can remain open. That's their during.

AD

Operation, the area that's under the gangway, which is between the a and b it looks like it.

A

Is that is that a is that paved? I don't remember that is all paved, so traffic can.

A

Move so the traffic can move all the way around this building. That's part of that's correct.

AD

Yes, it's yeah, that's all paved, there's. Actually, uh there's it's actually the paving it's a sea.

AD

Of paving out there it's a lot of it there. It is yeah the top right corner right yeah. So this.

AF

Is the gangway here this is standing past that gangway this is looking back at the rear of the.

AF

Building- and this is standing under the gangway- this is actually the shadow of the gangway here.

AF

Looking back to the rear of the property okay, so, as marty mentioned, this is all currently paved.

AF

And, as you can kind of see from the pictures you do see some tractor trailers that are currently.

AF

In here now, so they they do currently use that area. So would the idea be for the trucks to get.

A

To the back the new parking area in the back would they be driving under the gangway using.

A

That area or would they you anticipate them using the new parking area on the west side.

L

Yeah, I mean that's what it looks like they're coming down. Is there a connection between.

L

612, a and 612b do that both buildings, the smaller building to the I guess, would be the northeast.

AD

um In what they call area b, um that's all connected by paving okay. So basically you.

A

Can you could go around the back of a take a right come down under like you're, going to go under the.

A

Gangway but then you can take a left and drive in front of building b. If you want to correct and we.

AD

Have it set up where the storage yard, if the gates are closed, these areas that access the garage bays.

AD

uh The way they work could act as a turnaround to turn around for any trucks should some reason. The.

AD

Fences be the gates be closed, so we've basically got to handle both ways. We can either have through.

AD

Traffic where we can have if it's closed off people can get in and out of those parking areas.

AD

um And, and have sufficient turnaround room um as you're entering down between the two buildings.

AD

People tractor trailers or cars- that's correct. It's probably you.

AD

Know you're looking at a lot of more box trucks, but we have it set up for both.

L

So why would it be closed because of whoever is in the storage yard.

L

Running at the store, the storage yard itself, just for security reasons. Yes,.

AG

The the tenant we have uh in in place for that spot is is going to be occupying that.

AG

Back, which would be the northwest corner of the building, so that storage slot would.

AG

Be you know specifically for their use, so that would be locked for for their use, but it would.

AG

Also, we would also have the ability to drive through that storage lot if necessary, but it.

AG

Would be a storage lot specifically so, but they can prohibit. That. Is that correct that we can't.

L

Take that that's their space, so um they may not want through traffic.

AG

Well, you know, there's probably not a big need for through traffic there, because the other.

AG

Tenants there are have have docked doors on the other side, which will be on the east side of.

AG

The building they are serviced by dock doors on that side, so the likeliness of any other.

AG

Tenant needing to get back you know or drive through there was probably very very negligible.

A

Actually yeah so and the storage area is the new paving in the back left top left.

A

Corner right, correct and there are gates that would close, that off potentially for security.

A

They people can still come in under they can drive up under the gang, even if that's closed off. They.

A

Can come up and drive under the gangway in between the two buildings to access the back area of those.

A

Doors if they want to prior to these gates, yes and and they would basically any deliveries or.

AD

Any truck traffic can can pull into that area back into those garage bays where the turnaround.

AD

Areas are or the access to those that they just want to turn around. That's why? If you notice.

AD

There it's a lot wider from the parking spaces from parking space to parking space. The travel.

AD

Way is a lot wider in that area to accommodate the turning movements. Where is that exactly.

A

You're talking about um david, if you can make it directly back to where the access off the.

AD

Buildings right yeah, as you're coming in here, there's two access to garage doors. There you'll.

AD

Notice that that area is a lot wider, a little bit to the left david up yeah. That area right.

AD

In there you'll notice it's a lot wider than your standard 25 feet, and that is to allow the.

AD

Trucks to pull in back back into their space and then make the turn so they're, basically doing a.

AD

Three-Point turn right right, but there's room to do that they wouldn't get stuck back there and.

A

Have to back all the way up, that area only serves two tenants. Both of them have loading access, which.

AG

Would be on the east side of the building. The one of them is on the corner, uh the other one's.

AG

Sort of l-shaped, so they have loading dock on one side and a driving access on the other. So.

AG

You're only you're only uh you know the the need for anybody getting back, there's only to serve two.

AG

Tenants there- and this is primarily a warehouse back here right. It's all warehouse, correct.

A

I don't think I have any more questions. Anybody have any more questions.

W

David, you know from the county's perspective, with respect to that uh roundabout. That's going to be.

W

Constructed does the county have what it needs to to do that um is that a part of this process, or is.

W

That totally separate, so they that is considered as part of this process. Like I said we we wanted.

AF

To to keep in mind that that roundabout was coming in, that's why they're moving that entrance point.

AF

But when that roundabout's coming in, I have no idea, there's still a lot of communications. That.

AF

Are happening between owners of neighboring properties, between county staff, department of.

AF

Public works and stuff like that, so there seems to be a lot of still kind of up in the air in.

AF

Reference to that, but the best that we could do when looking at this project is just make.

AF

Sure that everything on this property is able to handle what that roundabout will bring. Okay.

A

Any other questions, I guess the one issue is: do you want to delegate final approval to the chair.

L

I do yeah okay, all right! Well put it this way.

A

If there are any significant changes, I'll be bringing it back here anyway,.

F

Yep, I will make that motion that we delegate the approval of the final site plan to you.

F

To the chair is there a second thing, a second all right, any further discussion on that point.

A

All in favor aye, um it's like they've, given me final authority, unless you.

A

Make big changes which you can, but then we're gonna I'll, be bringing it back here.

AE

Thank you for presenting this very thoughtful. We appreciate you all. Thank you. Thank you.

A

I think the next item on our agenda is lunch, and um so we will take a recess.

A

It says an hour: do you think we can do it in 45 minutes, or is that going to mess up um scheduling.

C

For the afternoon, I think, because we've posted an hour just in all fairness to anyone, that's coming.

C

For the concept site plan to be here, especially the public, I think an hour would I agree. Okay,.

A

That makes sense: okay, so we'll recess until 12 25.; okay, yes up until 25 ish ish, maybe 12 30.

A

Afternoon, everybody we'll call the uh september 20th 2022 carroll, county planning and zoning.

A

Commission meeting back into order uh for this afternoon's session, something.

A

We don't have afternoon sessions very often thankfully, but uh anyway, um move on to item 15.

A

On our agenda, which is a concept site plan, drill tech and it's case, number s21-0029.

P

P

Okay and again, I'm kirsten negro carroll, county's bureau of development review.

P

I'm going to let everybody hear with me today introduce themselves for the drill check project.

AI

I'm jeff ziegler with clsi engineering company foster area manager for drill tech.

AJ

Drawing and touring jason reinhardt project manager for drill tech, dwelling and shoring.

AA

Welcome thank you for being here today. Okay, so we have before you here is a concept site plan.

P

Concept site plan requires no action at this time, just for concept review, okay,.

P

This is for drill tech file, number s21029.

P

This is located right here, with this red shape is, in fact, the entire red shape is the site. This.

P

Is the northeast area of the county just outside the town limits of manchester? That's this unfilled.

P

In area here, that's the municipal limits of the town. This is within the growth limits of the town.

P

However, it's not being proposed to be annexed at this time, so it is being processed per county code.

P

Which is why it's before you here today for your concept, review.

P

It is zoned c2, commercial, medium in the county. This is a principal permitted use in the c2 zoning.

P

You can come back to this page in a minute, but well it's not much better. The proposed.

P

Use here it's currently an undeveloped field. The proposed use is an office and a vehicle.

P

Maintenance facility for drill tech- the site here you can see- is mostly just open grass right now.

P

There's an area of woods along the northern and eastern portion of the site. Those areas are both.

P

On slopes, the northern post portion here is of a higher elevation and it it goes down downgrade.

P

As it approaches the stream and this area here along route, 30 is the focus of the development.

P

And see from this view, too, that across the street to the west are residences.

P

To the south are other commercial activities here within the town, as well as some residents within.

P

The town to the east in this location, it's owned by the town of manchester- that is there's a couple.

P

Of parks over there, I believe the pine valley park and charlotte's quest park, as well as a couple.

P

I think three actually municipal wells for the town in this area and slightly to the north of it.

O

And then to the immediate north, I'm going to back up a little bit too to the immediate.

P

North, you can see that's still within the county, it's not annexing to the town. Yet that's a mix.

P

Of residential and conservation zoning- that's currently undeveloped. So our focus is this c2.

P

Zone property here highlighted in orange, which is the drill text site everything in this for.

P

This site, at least, is public private, water and sewer. Excuse me well and septic for this.

P

Site, I'm not proposing any connections to public water and sewer for this site.

P

So we'll go to the site plan layout. I hope.

P

That you can see a little better on your screens and on your paper there.

P

You can see here on this. Drawing to the west is route 30. slightly to the south of this is where.

P

About 30 and route 27 meet to give you a little bit more contacts as to where we are in the county.

P

So route 30 borders, the western portion of this site.

P

A building here on the western portion of the property, as I.

P

Mentioned before everything kind of from this point, fourth is downhill.

P

Towards the stream and the woods and the woods start about here,.

P

So this will be the western portion. Less than half of the site will be supposed to be developed. The.

P

Drill tech office and the drill tech maintenance building for the drill tech vehicles. I will note.

P

Too, from my understanding and correct me, if I'm wrong, the maintenance facility will be exclusively.

P

For use for drill tech vehicles correct correct, so it will not be open to the public there. It's.

P

Not like a jiffy lube or something like that, and specifically for this business.

P

The office building is on the western side. Here you can see the small square, it's about 2, 000,.

P

Feet or 2000 square feet for the office building and the remaining portion of the building is about.

P

10 150 square feet for the garage. It's a little bit hard to see on this drawing, but you can see.

P

The driveway access for this facility is here on route 30. on the southern portion of the site. It.

P

Moves to the east and then it fills out a bit to allow for maneuverability of the vehicles into and.

P

Out of and parking around the site, in addition to the parking here on the line, parking marks, parking.

P

Spaces and an accessible parking space for the office and for the garage, the workers and so on.

P

Around the site, you can see grading some significant grading, as proposed here like.

P

I mentioned the whole site is on a hill. It's a higher elevation on this portion.

P

A lower elevation on that portion, so it's a bit of leveling out that has to happen here.

P

You can see the grading that's proposed to occur will create two swales along the northern.

P

And southern portion of the site that lead to the eastern portion of the site, where there's a storm.

P

Water management facility, which we'll talk about a little bit more when we get into the reviews.

P

This is, this is even harder to see, but there is a landscaping buffer area proposed.

P

On the western portion, as well as a few trees throughout the parking lot here on.

P

The landscaping plan- these are the elevation sheet for the building, as we were discussing before you.

P

Can see the office to the west adjacent to route? 30. is a smaller portion again 2 000 square feet.

P

Significantly shorter than the garage building, which also allows for a sign to be installed.

P

On the garage building above the office building that will be visible from route 30.

P

The garage buildings height total here at the peak would be 31 feet.

P

For the office building 16 feet, the side is supposed to be aluminum.

P

And the roof will be a dark. I believe that is a metal roof as well. A dark colored, metal, roof.

P

Huge metal, siding, dark, colored, metal roof and around the perimeter of the building.

P

Lights are proposed as well. I don't believe I have a photometric plan, but the photometric.

P

Plan shows all light levels being at zero at the property lines from the building mounted lights.

P

As I mentioned previously, this is essentially just a vacant field. At this time you can see.

P

This existing gravel apron off of the edge of about 30.. This is a road, that's visible.

P

In these photographs here, existing gravel apron, that's on site presently is the same.

P

Area, that's proposed to be utilized for the driveway once this is constructed.

P

This is looking from that apron into the site. The building would probably be right about here.

P

And the driveway over here or the parking area over here as well.

P

This is looking from, I think you can see the apron right here looking in the same direction,.

P

And this is looking from this hill point here back towards the apron which would be over here.

P

So as far as the reviews go, I will also know that the only sign is proposed presently is the.

P

Building mounted sign, there's no proposal for any freestanding signs for the site.

P

P

So, as I mentioned, zoning administration has reviewed this plan. It's a principal.

P

Permitted use for this zoning district and the plans have been approved from zoning.

P

Stormwater management has also reviewed the plans I mentioned that I would talk about that. A little.

P

Bit later, swales here, one to the north, the one to the south that wrap around the site they're both.

P

Part of the storm water management plan and again they lead to the facility here. So the swales lead.

P

To the submerged gravel wetland, all three of these features will be lined with membrane material, that.

P

Will make sure that potential contaminants coming off the site are handled in a way.

P

That reduces any potential for contamination off the site. That's because this site is considered.

P

A hot spot, according to stormwater management, review and water resource protection codes due.

P

To the fact that the vehicle repair facility, so extra precautions are taken regarding potential.

P

Contaminants coming off of that site and handled in a way that helps reduce that possibility. So.

P

Storm water management has reviewed this they've granted concept, approval for it and, of course,.

P

They'll review it again for final, we'll see more details come out for that when that review occurs,.

P

Water resource management has not yet approved the site. There will be an easement required.

P

On site, as there is a stream like, we saw in the previous aerial photograph.

P

That runs along the eastern portion of the site. Here there will be an easement required.

P

In association with that, that's not yet shown on the plans. Forest conservation is essentially.

P

The same situation, forest conservations, granted concept approval for the site which specifies.

P

That 2.48 acres of forest conservation will be provided on site, but it's not yet shown.

P

But like we saw previously again this this entire area around the stream and down on the slopes is.

P

All all covered in woods currently as proposed to be utilized to accommodate that easement.

P

Now landscaping approval has not yet been approved, as we discussed there's an area.

P

Of landscape buffer here from the letters we received from landscaping, it looks like that's.

P

Supposed to be across the entire frontage of route 30, essentially, in addition to a dumpster there's a.

P

Dumpster located in this corner of the site, a dumpster and a roll-off dumpster as well that.

P

Will require screening per landscaping's code, so that will be addressed as this plan moves forward.

P

Grading review and has also has comments that need to be addressed as the plan moves forward, but soil conservation has approved it, as as it is.

P

Site compliance for accessibility has not yet been granted. The parking lot.

P

Does show an ada parking space as required, but my understanding.

P

From reading the letter, uh additional details are required regarding signage.

P

And ensuring that the access path into the buildings meet the code requirement.

P

Fire protection also has not issued approval for this site. Yet a fire protection issued a comment.

P

Letter regarding the need to add a sprinkler system to the repair garage as it's over 5000.

P

Square feet in size, this comment would need to be addressed prior to final approval, so we'll.

P

See a response from that in future submittals, as I mentioned previously as well, the site utilizes.

P

Private water and sewer there's a well and septic features as well in septic on site, currently.

P

Existing as an additional backup septic area proposed that the health department has reviewed.

P

They had additional comments as well and we'll see that addressed as this moves through final review.

P

State highway administration again also reviewed this, because it's adjacent to.

P

Route 30 and connecting to route 30 the state highway administration has some detailed level.

P

Comments at this time, but their previous comments regarding sidewalk and regarding the access point.

P

To the site have been addressed again, the access sites proposed on the southwestern portion here.

P

And there's a sidewalk that runs from property align to property line, a five.

P

Foot wide new sidewalk that will be installed also in association with this development.

P

Planning review this as well and found the proposed land use consistent with the master.

P

Plan and the designation of commercial meeting medium, the project was also sent to the town of.

P

Manchester, this is right adjacent to the municipal lines, so they also got an opportunity to review it.

P

The town had comments regarding the wells that were in proximity to the site and downgradient.

P

Of the site, the potential impact that this could have on the wells and on the stream.

P

And, like I mentioned previously, and I've had discussions with them to this point as well.

P

The fact that this is treated as a hot spot that there are additional precautions taken because.

P

Of the fact that it's a it's a vehicle repair facility and the lying that they utilize and the.

P

Methods they utilize to handle the storm water management. We've discussed that with the town.

P

And that didn't have any further comments after that. So for those were the comments that they had.

P

Now this site, of course, was also presented at the technical review committee meeting as.

P

A standard for any site plan this was done in december 27 2021. There were citizens that spoke.

P

At that meeting we received from some phone calls and some emails. I believe you would have received.

P

In your packet there, some of the emails we received, we were comments we received at.

P

That time from the public were concerned about traffic congestion, particularly on route 30.,.

P

Potential impact to the stream on site and visual screening of the site for the.

P

Residences, in particular, from phone calls from the neighbors on the western side of route 30. There.

P

We also received since that time, a few more phone calls more or less to the same point.

P

Concerns about the wells concerned about the streams concerns about traffic on route 30., I've.

P

Also, since your packet was prepared, received two emails from mr george hoffman regarding concerns.

P

About the environmental impact for a vehicle maintenance facility featuring oil changes.

P

Lubrication, washing and oil and diesel storage on the site as well as, and that was in a letter.

P

An email to the health department with concerns about that, as well as an email that was sent to.

P

The state highway administration regarding traffic on route 30., so those were the two emails we.

P

Received since you had your packet and and phone calls along a similar frame of reference, there.

P

So all in all there were the few agencies that still need to review for approval. This will be.

P

Reviewed as by all agencies, when the final plan comes in at this point, this is the concept review.

P

So we'd be happy to answer any questions or address any comments that you or the public.

AJ

Not at this time, justin covered it pretty. Well, yes! um So what? um How would you address some.

A

Of the concerns about the environmental impact well, this could have on that. If somebody has a.

A

Concern about that well sure: how would you, how would you respond as far as far as the wells.

AJ

For the county wells that are the city wells that they're being used, we can provide self-containment.

AJ

On all areas within the shop and recycle any uh water etc, and make sure that it's.

AJ

Even clean of any contaminants before it would go to the storm water uh containment area as.

AJ

Far as any fuel stored on site, we do this on all of our construction sites, where we have.

AJ

Double containment on all diesel fuels to where, if there was a spill on the initial containment, the.

AJ

Secondary would contain the entire amount, with it that's being stored in the primary containment.

AJ

I mean we like, I said we, uh we work on sites all over the country to where we're.

AJ

We had to have the potential to impact the environment and we follow all procedures to.

AJ

Make sure that uh that that does not happen and there's a stream. Obviously that runs down along is.

A

Your answer in terms of taking good care of that the same, absolutely I I don't even want to get. I.

AJ

Don't think we're going to get near the stream, uh we would just make sure that we would contain any.

AJ

Runoff before it even approaches that area, if I can add in the way the site was designed there.

AI

Is there is no curbing proposed everything from the the pavement runs off the pavement and into.

AI

The swales that you know run around the site to the south and to the north, which then ultimately.

AI

Go into this merge gravel wetlands, which kirsten did say that it is aligned facility. So there is.

AI

No potential for infiltration into the ground from that, but it will. You know that part of that will.

AI

Have a sand filtering system that will filter out some of those contaminants before it gets.

AI

Into the retention portion of the pond before it's released, um the the site is 16 acres, but it has.

AI

You know wooded approximately a four acre wooded area around the the eastern side of the site. We.

AI

Are not impacting any of that woods and all of that will be put in forestry, easements or.

AI

Variable stream buffer easements, so none of that is being impacted um and you know that.

AI

That they're going to be concerned about their own well on site and the contaminants that go into the.

AI

Grounds are, you know, coming off of their site, so they they want to look after themselves. There, too,.

A

Thank you and then the other concern that was raised is from members of the public. Were traffic.

F

And so let me just ask you to address that, if you sure most most of our traffic.

AJ

Employees would be arriving, you know between 7 and 8 30 in the morning, leaving between 5 and 5 30.

AJ

At night, uh any traffic that would be bringing in the vehicles or equipment usually occurs early in.

AJ

The morning or in the afternoon we don't, we don't want our trucks involved on route 30 during heavy.

AJ

uh Heavy traffic situations and most of the time, if our, if our vehicles and trucks are.

AJ

Going out of that facility we're starting work on our sites before 7 a.m, so they're usually.

AJ

Gone uh much earlier to where they, it wouldn't impact any existing traffic. How many employees.

A

Do you anticipate having on site, I would say peak employees would probably be 12 to 15.

AJ

Somewhere in that area, and it is it right that immediately adjacent to you is the- is it roar, bile.

A

Bus, yes, company, correct, okay, and that's right next to you, I think, yeah. I don't.

AJ

Think they're a bus company, it may still be owned by the bus company, but what they're.

AJ

Doing right now, is they uh transport dry goods through uh uh tanker trucks.

A

Any other questions that you all have about that probably do hmm looking at everything. Have you.

Y

Because, obviously they said it's going to need fire protection. Do you have an idea of where.

Y

You're going to set the tank because the being on well water you're, going to need a very, very.

Y

Large tank to supply the sprinkler system and it needs positive flow going into the building.

Y

Positive grade you're, probably looking at at least a 20 to 30 000 gallon tank just for the sprinkler.

Y

System alone yeah, so you can either elevate the tank or keep it at grade and use pumps well, yeah.

Y

You are going to need a pump. You're gonna need a pump, you need. You know what I'm saying: pumps.

AJ

From the tank to the sprinkler system yeah, so what you'll have to have a vertical turbine pump.

Y

That will sit over top of that yeah, but looking at the site plan and the way it's all grading.

Y

Knowing you need positive pressure going into the building, I'm just kind of curious as to where.

Y

You guys are thinking that that's going to go because it's pretty jammed in there.

AI

We I mean ideal, we can put it up on top of the hill looking at the site, the way.

AI

It's on the plan right now. We could put it up on the hill on the south side or on the.

Y

North side yeah and I'm just bringing this up because I mean being on well water. That's going.

Y

To be, maybe you are prepared for the expense of that. I just have experience in that industry so.

Y

um Just something to to keep in mind that that is going to be a requirement.

Y

Absolutely yeah commercial property in um carroll county you want wells are definitely a little more.

L

Expensive than just public, but that's something the engineers and or people will be able to.

L

Determine I would love for the town of manchester to give me a water and sewer hookup permit, and we.

AJ

Wouldn't have that conversation? That would be the ideal, but so is it the case kirsten.

W

That that we're going to see this again with a more detailed landscape plan showing the the.

W

uh Screening, I'm changing the seven sorry with no it's okay um with site plans. There's always.

P

The choice that can be made at the concept presentation for the commission to delegate.

P

Approval to the chair, if that happens, if you choose to do that, then you will not see it again.

P

Only the chair will see it again. However, if you don't make that motion, you will see it again for.

P

Final, yes, yes, and that will be after all, county agencies have already approved it. It will be.

P

More or less the way that it's going to be that's, that would be what we'd be approving.

AI

In the landscape comment, our landscape buffering that we proposed was between.

AI

The parking lot and the office area we created is sort of a small berm with the landscaping in.

AI

Front of there, jonathan bowman wanted us to extend it further north to make sure it was.

AI

Between the edge of our pavement and route 30., we didn't do that initially, because it.

AI

Sort of goes up the hill and it creates a national or a natural buffer. The way that.

AI

It's graded, so we didn't take the need for that, but we can certainly extend it for him.

L

So I think, there's um enough things that still we want to see before, we would just say give it to.

L

But I promise we'll: do it quickly.

P

I will note too: while we were just talking about landscaping, the one.

P

Phone call we received from the neighbors to the west was at the household that was.

P

Right about here that was concerned with screening somewhere in this area.

P

Yeah I'll just say that, from from my perspective, the the screening that I'm interested in seeing.

W

Is the screening of the dark areas because it's a crosstalk facility? It's you got stuff.

W

All over the place that office frontage might actually be appealing. If you do it right right.

W

And so you might be able to take some of that landscaping and just you know, move it to the sides.

W

um And show your logo, um so I'm you know I'm up for that. But again I think if I was living.

W

Across the street it would be nice and then I get the light washed and that it's at zero.

W

But still it'd be nice to have that um that screened a little bit. Those dock area screen.

A

Are there any members of the public where's? The first comment on this project.

A

Come up to the microphone here, please and state your name and give us your address.

AK

Randy miller secretary board member and volunteer at charlotte's quest nature center at pine valley.

AK

Park manchester maryland, um so you have addressed many of the current concerns. I had pretty.

AK

Adequately about the traffic, so I'm going to omit that part of what I plan to talk about, but um I'd.

AK

Spoken- and this is in regards to the potential for like spills or malfunctions at the facilities.

AK

Because action accidents can happen, I had spoken with david robinson of environmental health.

AK

Who primarily deals with septic and wells concerns? He had the impression that this.

AK

Location was to consist of an office and vehicle storage, and then my understanding was that.

AK

um And this was just described as well that my um that it will this area or site will feature heavy.

AK

Vehicle maintenance of industrial vehicle vehicles featuring- I believe you had said this if I'm.

AK

Repeating myself, I'm sorry or repeating anything already stated, I do apologize, but oil changes.

AK

Lubrication washing and oil and diesel storage, which will require water treatment facility.

AK

um Which david robinson um didn't seem to be informed of before mr huffman um george.

AK

She had mentioned him earlier on. A bachelor's in environmental planning had brought to his.

AK

Attention which does raise possible concerns of um honesty and transparency on behalf of drill tech.

AK

Other concerns raised by other board members and residents of the the area um are the proximity.

AK

To the wells on farrier road and then trout, unlimited stream, which does provide future.

AK

Drinking water for baltimore county um and then also the adjacent pine valley park, which includes.

AK

Natural habitats and various lands, wildlife and plants life conservation efforts- there are various.

AK

Species of wildlife vegetation, including 30 plus species of trees, located at and behind that tree.

AK

Line just behind and below the proposed site, location um within that wetland area and all.

AK

Of which could potentially be threatened by the construction and operations of this facility.

AK

Anything else that you'd like to raise those malfunctions relating.

AK

To like a runoff in similar issues, but that is all thank.

AK

You for letting me serve it. Thank you. Anyone else have any comments. Yes, sir.

AH

Tom smith, manchester resident uh our concerns are similar to what you've.

AH

Just heard a couple, other things I want to reflect on, though, are the.

AH

2004 about it within the park limits the whole school of manchester elementary six.

AH

Seven hundred students participated in a buffer area, planting of 185 trees right along the stream.

AH

So the concerns were back then as well about keeping the stream clean and uh working to for the.

AH

Environment purposes uh mentioned trout, unlimited. We had them come in some years ago and check.

AH

The pond, because some people thought the water discharge water was maybe too warm for the stream.

AH

They came in and after several studies they said that that was fine at that time. So we want to.

AH

Make sure that the runoff any runoff that comes from anywhere else doesn't affect that as well.

AH

I talked about the sewer and runoff work and to collect basins.

AH

After it leaves the collect basins, uh can you clarify just what it's going to do from that point?.

AH

Anyone, so your question is where it goes from the basin. Yes onward,.

AH

I think that's drill. Tech must answer that. I guess this stone water or the outfall um out falls in in.

AI

The existing grass area that has a little bit of a buffer over land before it gets into this.

AI

The wooded area that we're not um you know that we'll be protecting and leaving as it is from.

AI

The stream itself there's over 200 feet from the outfall of our facility down to the stream.

AI

Most of that is through the wooded area, which you know will serve as a nice filtering buffer.

P

And jesse said the the strohmeyer facility had filtering medium in it as well correct.

A

Right so I understand correctly, it gets filtered at the site and then once it leaves.

A

What I'll call holding tank? Basically, then, it runs as it does now right through the through the.

A

Grasses down the hill through the woods I mean any water that runs off there. Now does the same thing.

A

Is that right, correct and the water temperature that he had raised with that? To your knowledge, be.

A

Affected uh by any runoff from this facility, to my knowledge, it shouldn't be because it'll be again.

AI

It's a two-stage filtering process. Not only will you know it, the water come through the side, swales.

AI

um That'll help cool the temperatures down, but it'll go through a sand filtering system.

AI

Within that basin facility, before it gets released in onto the ground.

A

The um mr smith, you had mentioned 185 trees that were planted by the elementary school. Yes,.

A

Is those trees I don't think are being disturbed and nothing about it, but I'm saying that they were.

AH

Put in to help preserve the stream and the area from other runoffs in different places, things at.

AH

That time, which is approximately 100 to 200 feet, nor upstream from where this site area is okay,.

AH

And that's that's the headwaters of the lower gun or the cell gunpowder river.

AH

South branch? Okay, so that, like you, said before it runs into the freeway reservoir like raven.

AH

uh That's all part of baltimore's watershed and then eventually into the chesapeake bay.

AH

And we know the problems at chesapeake bays haven't, so that's just concerns there.

AH

One other concern I have is what you mentioned about traffic.

AH

You're saying that you're not going to have that much traffic going out at peak times.

AH

Well, I live in manchester just a few houses up from there and at times you mentioned, are peak.

AH

Travel uh my driveway anywhere from 4 30 in the morning to about eight o'clock in the morning.

AH

And even later I can sit there, two three four minutes trying to get out and the only way I get.

AH

Out is somebody's kind enough to stop and let me out so and with the other truck depot there.

AH

Right next to the jason site, they constantly have traffic backed up because they've got to.

AH

Make their way of turns in and out and traffic is always backed up there as well, uh when I've.

AH

Stated it's backed up in the morning uh traffic coming from the north from pennsylvania area.

AH

It can be backed up from 27, which is just up the street all the way up to linebaugh road, which is a.

AH

Mile and even up above that, evan valley road, which is another quarter mile and that's not uncommon. On.

AH

Any almost any given day now not that it happens every day, but it does happen and in the evening.

AH

Traffic flying down that hill trying to get home, it's really a headache, try to get out and.

AH

To maneuver around theater, so traffic is going to be a problem and it's going to increase any.

A

Other comments that you haven't already mentioned: gil. Okay, thank you very much. We appreciate that.

A

Do you all have any other comments in response to any of that? You don't have to just.

AL

um I just would want to add about the uh the heating of the water from what I understand that.

AL

That pond is a submerged grab a wetland, so the idea is that all the water seeps into the ground.

AL

So it's not going to you, know, drain down the hill and warm the streams streams below.

AI

But it will have a lining in it, so it won't infiltrate into the ground itself.

A

And the you know the traffic, I think any of us that drive up there know that it looks like.

A

They evacuate pennsylvania every morning down that road. Certainly I'm sensitive to that. I.

A

Mean that that certainly is the case, um I would just say as a as a commercial use, because it is.

AI

Zone c2 sure this is a a considerably light commercial use with traffic, as as a concern.

AI

Right yeah, and I reckon I think we recognize that I mean you- have 13 employees. There tops.

A

um So you have, you have to get out into the road traffic's a problem for you too,.

A

um But so we don't understand any other questions or comments for.

A

Sure, well, it looks like we'll see the final plan as a group once you have it.

A

All all together and we'll try to move that quickly. So as soon as you have it.

A

Ready we'll try to get on the agenda and get it right back to us. We understand time matters, so are you ready to look at just as soon as it's finalized? Thank you all very much.

A

We'll move on to item 16, which is a concept site plan cool spring school. It's case number s 22-0020,.

A

You know so good afternoon, especially yesterday, hello good afternoon, welcome good afternoon amy.

D

Barcroft with the bureau of development review, this is project s22-0020, cool spring school.

D

I'll, let those with me introduce themselves quickly mike o'brien with hanover land services.

Z

Joseph lapp school board chairman I'm john king school board secretary.

D

Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. This plan is before the planning and zoning commission as.

D

A concept site plan no action is required. The planning commission may consider delegating.

D

Approval of the final site plan to the planning commission chair. Additionally, we are looking for.

D

Some direction for parking requirements which you'll hear later on in this plan.

D

The subject property is located at 2318 cross-section road in westminster, election.

D

District 2., the 59 acre parcel, is in the agricultural zoning district. We are northwest.

D

Of the city of westminster and east of the city of taneytown, this property is accessed by a 10.

D

Foot wide gravel driveway over an adjoining property with a platted right-of-way easement.

D

To cross section road, the property and surrounding properties have private wells and septic systems.

D

The property's environmental features include a stream pond woods, fema, floodplain, designation.

D

As you see, joining properties are zoned, agriculturally with several and preservation.

D

Easements and most built with single-family residences, the developer is proposing a.

D

One-Room amish schoolhouse on 1.4 acre lease area in the northeast corner of the property.

D

The plan proposes two new structures: a 1320 square foot, school building and a 35 square.

D

Foot cement block building for boys and girls toilets the proposed one-room school building.

D

Will have a front elevation of 19 feet and a two foot bell tower the maximum height in the.

D

Ag zoning district is 35 feet or two and a half stories, so this complies a 10 foot wide, gravel.

D

Driveway is proposed to branch off the existing driveway to access the site. The zoning um excuse.

D

Me, the chapter 155.078 of our code requires 18 feet wide minimum width for access drives to sites.

D

For two-way traffic, so our option in this case would be to seek an administrative adjustment from.

D

The zoning administrator, which I understand the developer and engineer, are pursuing at this time.

D

Schools are a principal permitted use in the ag zoning district, no signage or lighting.

D

Is proposed on the site, one handicap parking space and accessible paths to both the school.

D

And bathroom structures will be constructed in accordance with site compliance review.

D

Approximately 35 students are projected to enroll and all will be supervised by one staff. Member.

D

There are no special events or assembly areas proposed. All students and staff will be dropped.

D

Off by a group of four vans daily, no other vehicles are anticipated to use the site. This.

D

Is proposed to generate about eight average daily trips for a drop off and pickup and the owner and.

D

Developer are proposing one handicap accessible space according to 155077, the minimum number of.

D

Spaces required for elementary middle high school or equivalent private or parochial institution is.

D

Subject to a detailed parking analysis and study which shall address the following: the number.

D

Of faculty and staff, the projected enrollment requirements for special events, the capacity of.

D

Special assembly areas and the final determination will be made by the planning commission.

D

Landscaping is not required for this project. Forest conservation is exempt.

D

Storm water management is being addressed by a microbiore retention facility proposed on site.

D

The drainage from the site discharges onto the subject property, which then drains into.

D

The map fema floodplain on the farm concept, storm water management approval- has been granted water.

D

Resource management and floodplain have approved the plan. The site is outside the jurisdiction of.

D

The bureau of utilities, zoning site compliance and emergency services have approved the plan. The plan.

D

Is consistent with the carroll county master plan determined by the department of planning.

D

The health department has some outstanding comments to be addressed on the final plan.

D

And the engineer has requested a variance for the required site distance at the driveway entrance.

D

To the property from the required 500 feet to 425 feet to the right site, distance is.

D

Somewhat hindered by the existing grade and a tree line on a neighboring property.

D

The request is still pending with our engineering review.

D

The concept plan was submitted in april 2022 and the plan was subject to citizen involvement at.

D

The may technical review committee three citizens were present at that meeting. One had concerns for.

D

Trash disposal from the site and alleged that trash was being burned from the property. No.

D

Dumpster is proposed on the site. This final site plan will be tested and reviewed with adequacy.

D

For public facilities accordance with chapter 155., again, no action is required, but we are asking for.

D

Direction for the parking requirements and final approval can be delegated to the chair. Here are.

D

Some photos from the site where it meets cross section road and the site itself is a farm field.

D

Thank you. Thank you. You don't have anything to add.

AM

A

um In terms of the so let me just run backwards, the one was an issue of trash disposal. What is.

A

The what is the plan of the planters? Well, the children would have the role well, they take their.

Z

Own lunches to school and they're supposed to put their trash back in their lunches. But I know.

Z

There's always going to be some trash. We usually keep a burn bower at our schools, and you know.

Z

Every once in a while, they'll burn some trash, but it's not like it happens a lot and there were did.

A

You say 35 students is that that I think we have proposed for 35 or 36. and one staff and one step.

A

um The the parking spaces you were mentioning- and I know we've got it in our report. The number.

A

Of parking spaces require will be subject to a detailed parking analysis and study.

A

um Which we're not capable of doing but.

A

It seems like we have four vans, dropping off 35 students and we have one staff member.

A

um How detailed does the parking analysis need to be? I mean, and there are no public events here so.

A

How do we, how do we get to a place where we can come up with um some some ideas for.

A

What parking is required, so we feel that it's a relatively low impact to the site.

D

Obviously, it's not open to the public where other schools might have a larger public involvement.

D

um Again, we're just looking for the planning commission to make some.

D

Analysis based on the facts, the the projected enrollment, the eight average daily trips.

D

And uh go from there: okay, and I'm not trying to put you on the spot, I'm just trying to get some.

A

Guidance here in terms of what what might be um reasonable under the circumstances of the.

A

Particular use of this particular property in this particular context. um I'm confused on the.

L

35 square foot, restaurant restroom, which, if my calculations are right, but that 7x5.

L

Like that, um so there are no wells or septics on this property that are being required. So is this a.

AM

Outhouse correct: there will be no running water uh to the building and the boys and girls toilets.

AM

Will have tanks located below them which will get pumped out? Okay, so without any running water.

L

What and it's not for us to decide, but god forbid, a fire. um How is something like that addressed.

L

For the building for the school building, there is a pond on site. I believe that there.

D

Deemed adequate for fire protection.

AM

There is uh located actually directly across the driveway from the site.

AM

Is the stream and then the pond is directly across the stream from that.

A

So that's where if there were a fire, the fire department could pump water out of the stream.

F

So I assume this is very standard size, school and stuff that you guys have in different areas.

F

Yeah, as far as the parking, what we have proposed here, one parking spot. That's what we've always.

Z

Required and lancaster, where we moved from so yeah we're proposing much exactly what we were used to.

Z

Building and languages and the the students will be dropped off and then the vans will.

AM

Move off premises, so no throughout the the day no vehicles will be actually parked. There.

L

So and there's no other employees just one correct and uh joseph actually, let me know a.

AM

Little bit ago, that the teacher that would be there actually lives on site currently.

A

So they don't need a parking spot either all right I'll, be walking.

F

I would say the only thing I propose that, maybe you add to maybe a pull-off.

F

Somewhere on the driveway- because you know god- god forbid something.

F

Would ever happen? You know we know things have happened before that.

F

You could have some an intruder come or something just in case you know emergency vehicles or.

U

Something emergency vehicles or something some kind of kind of case there would have to be.

F

Something happened, I mean it's always possible.

H

That would be like you know. I think everything else is pretty standard.

A

And I take it, your experience has been having the one parking spot has been fine. Yes,.

A

This is unusual for us around. We actually built one last year and uh on rope road, but uh we didn't.

Z

Have much rating there with a very flat area, so it was not stormwater.

Z

Did not require storm water management, and so it wasn't a full balloon. Did we see that? But this is.

AM

Exactly uh that one yeah that one was a simplified site plan. Oh, this is exactly what we put there.

A

Well, I like matt's idea of a turnaround. Just I mean a pull-off if you've got to get emergency.

A

Equipment back there for some reason you want to make sure that they can do it and.

A

Get there it's in everybody's interest to make sure that that can happen. I don't think under.

A

The circumstances here that presents much of a problem, I mean it's a gravel road and having a.

A

Pull-Off problem is not too difficult. um Does anybody else have any other comments.

L

Oh seven by five bathrooms, yeah I'll jump in here just just for a moment. I've worked.

B

With the uh with mr laps on several projects, I I would assume there will be no electricity.

B

To this building, just like everything else, there correct no, uh I would agree with mr huff.

B

uh From a public safety standpoint, I don't believe 10 feet is enough. I think it should be. I hate to.

B

I don't like using common driveways, so I'm going to let it go with that, but I think this one's 18.

B

Feet is this one 18? No, it's not no! It's 10 10.! So I was going to reference the 12 foot that we used.

B

For the use in common, but I'm not going to, uh but I truly do think that it should be at least.

B

More than 10., especially considering the fact that the pond will be utilized, if necessary, for.

B

Fire protection 10 feet is just not enough, so if there's a way that we could I mean this is.

B

Just me personally talking now that you know from from the experience that I've had so.

B

And I'd also like to see, if have has fire protection weighed in on this? Did you say.

B

That or they didn't yes, emergency services has approved the plan. Okay, did they call for any.

B

uh Static standpipe or anything on that pond, or did they just go with the fact that it could be.

B

Drafted out of what was do you know, I don't know any details about that. Okay, they did not require.

Z

That, as far as the existing driveway width, the platted right-of-way, leading to the through the.

AM

Adjacent property is uh it's only a 12 foot right of way? Okay, so it would be very difficult to widen.

AM

That driveway, without uh acquiring additional right-of-way width there from the neighbors.

B

Okay, I don't know how cooperative they would be with that. They said it. You know yeah.

AM

And also the that section does run through a uh emergent wetland, a what a wetland. Yes, okay,.

F

I would drive proposed, maybe just widening that corner before you turn in there. Instead of being.

F

10 by 10 intersection widen it, so something could come in there if it had to at least and maybe just.

F

Your new, your new road be 12 feet that wouldn't that much yeah I'd try to get as much out of it.

B

As you can, because that's that's really tight, I mean it, you know fire engine these days is is.

B

At minimum eight and a half nine feet wide, so not a lot of room for for maneuvering there not to, but.

B

Let's be clear, I hope we're never in there, but um you know: we've made some we've we've made some.

B

Stipulations over time for the fact that there's no electric so- and I know you I know you guys- will.

B

Do that with the fire extinguishers and what have you, but I would encourage you also to reach out to.

B

The local fire department and have them come look at the pond just so they know what the you know.

B

What the what they can and can't do there and they might have, they might be fine with 10 feet, but now.

B

You know at least at least get them involved, and I can certainly help you with that too. But you know.

B

That that's something, I think is important and the health department is still reviewing.

L

Is that they have some outstanding comments that need to be addressed on the final plan.

L

I gotta say it: I am still hung up with this seven. By five thing I mean knowing right knowing.

L

Children I mean when they got to go, they gotta go. I I would like to see a little, maybe two for.

L

The girls one for the boy, the boy can go anywhere, but it's you know it's seems discriminatory. I know.

W

I just health-wise, I just feel like.

A

Well and don't take what we're saying to try to make something: that's simple, complicated we're.

A

Not, but we do want to focus on life safety issues, I mean if somebody if emergency equipment needed.

A

To get back there, we want to make sure they can, and um so there are a few things like you said.

A

The health department still has to comment, certainly the commissioner's ideas. I endorse.

A

About talking to the local fire folks and just having them eyeball it and collaborate with you.

A

The other are there any other questions of the commission.

A

Are there any members of the public that want to comment on this project.

A

Doesn't look like it um and then the other thing is: um do you want to consider delegating.

A

Approval of the final site plan to the chair, yep I'll, make the motion we uh delegate the.

F

Authority to the chair a second all right. We have a motion a second all in favor aye.

A

Good luck, john. Thank you. Thank you.

O

A

Next item on our agenda is a brief recess, uh we'll take um 10 minutes and reconvene then thank you.

A

Everybody welcome back from the home stretch. No we're not no we're not.

V

Just not quite there yet pretending just a little bit extending a little bit of hope.

A

All right well welcome back we'll reconvene our meeting today and uh go on to item 18.. This is.

A

Shh rezoning case 226 max sweet property and ms weber you're, leading us on this again.

A

Welcome back um up next, we have the rezoning case, 226 of the max sweet property.

J

um You'll remember this was introduced to you all at your august 31st meeting.

J

um I'll, let clark schaefer do his introductions. Thank you. Clark, schaefer uh 73's, main street.

I

Westminster on behalf of max sweet, who is here with me today, max who's, the owner of.

I

The property that is the subject of this rezoning well and he's also a principal in the neighboring.

I

Property known as vanessa's corner pub, uh which is which is there, okay marty hackett, see lsi.

J

Okay, so before we jump right in, I want to give a brief overview of kind of the piecemeal rezoning.

J

Process and what you all should be thinking about during the arguments and the presentation so.

J

Per maryland, state law, piecemeal rezonings can only happen if there was a mistake in the last.

J

Comprehensive rezoning- or there was a substantial change in the character of the neighborhood, so.

J

Those are the two things that the arguments will be focused around, such as some things to remember.

J

So getting into the actual case, um we are in the royal village.

J

Of taylorsville, just a little west of the maryland 26th and 27 intersection.

J

The property to be rezoned is 7.716 acres, it is currently zoned agriculture and the request is to.

J

Go to c2 or commercial medium. The applicant is arguing both a substantial change and a.

J

Mistake in the zoning we are in election district 14 and commissioner district 4.

J

The neighborhood boundary was established since there was a sub, they are arguing. There was a.

J

Substantial change in the neighborhood, so the neighborhood boundary helps us um realize and.

J

Confirm what the actual neighborhood boundary is and where the substantial change may have.

J

Occurred in so the neighborhood boundary is approximately 61 acres and it's predominated.

J

By the intersection of 26 and 27 and inside, thank you inside the neighborhood boundary are a mix of.

J

Uses from commercial and residential there's uh there's mobile home park, there's gas stations.

J

There's liquor stores there's a lot of different types of uses inside the neighborhood boundary.

J

And then the zoning is representative of the different types of uses that.

J

Are inside the neighborhood boundary, so we have a mixture of c2 r40 000 in agriculture,.

J

And now here are the new informations that were not presented on the 31st per county.

J

Policy and process, we send out a transmittal to county agencies for a comment, and these are.

J

All of the different agencies that we sent the request for comment to.

J

We received one advisory comment from david robinson from the carroll county.

J

Health department, the proposed use, may not be acceptable unless it is demonstrated that.

J

There is an adequate water supply and adequate area for the installation of an initial and two.

J

Replacement septic systems for the proposed use and any existing uses of this property.

J

And we'll get a little more into the septic issues in the arguments.

J

um So, as we said in the beginning, the petitioner is arguing there's a mistake in the current zoning.

J

The petitioner alleges mistake because the zoning authority, who planned and zoned the property.

J

For agriculture was unaware of the following facts and circumstances. The subject property.

J

Is located immediately adjacent to the existing commercially used, restaurant and bar, which is.

J

The vanessa's corner pub, as mr shaffer introduced, the petitioner acquired the subject property in.

J

April 2020 and is a principal in the real estate business known as vanessa's corner pub vanessa's.

J

Corner pub is the successor in a long line of restaurant bar businesses going back historically.

J

The property has historically had septic and well issues involving significant review and regulatory.

J

Attention of the carroll county health department and is currently served by septic system holding.

J

Tank which needs to be pumped out monthly, if not more frequently, the subject property has.

J

Existing driveway entrances onto maryland, 26. and the subject property if rezoned would be eligible.

J

To provide development opportunities which could provide relief to and possible relocation.

J

Of the vanessa's corner, pub business and in general, allow new development of the property.

J

So, looking at the petitioner's arguments of mistake, the staff drew the following conclusions:.

J

So going back a little bit, as some of you are aware, prior to the c1 c2 c3, i1, i2 and.

J

Employment campus districts, the county, had the bnr mbg zoning districts for the commercial.

J

And industrial properties during the beginning stages of the comprehensive rezoning process, the.

J

Department of planning eliminated the bnr and bg zoning districts, and that is how the c1 c2.

J

Etc, zoning districts were made so placing the properties that were originally in the bnr and.

J

Bg zoning districts, the department of planning, created a matrix to ensure that those properties.

J

Would be put into the correct c1, c2 c3, i1, i2 and employment campus districts looking at.

J

The matrix that the department of planning made if this property was not zoned agriculture, we.

J

Would have placed it into the c2 zoning district due to the following reasons: the road frontage.

J

Being on a major road which is maryland 26, the usable area of the property is less than five.

J

Acres, the property is inside a rural village, and the surrounding area is commercial uses.

J

Looking a little ahead in the comprehensive rezoning process, some of you are also aware.

J

That we went through the buy request phase, we did receive correspondence from the applicant's.

J

Attorney but unfortunately that was after the applicant, the application window had closed.

J

So there was consideration to rezone this property back then, during the buy request, phase.

J

Some more staff conclusions are: there are many uses permitted in the c2 zoning.

J

District that are not allowed in the ag zoning district and that are currently.

J

Being used inside the neighborhood boundary, some of these uses are automobile service.

J

Center fuel station tavern or a bar and a general retail of any size.

J

Staff believe the property could have been looked at more closely during the comprehensive rezoning.

J

Effort involving the commercial districts, this conclusion is drawn due to the subject: property.

J

Residing in a rural village, its proximity to a commercial center, as well as as its proximity to.

J

A dominant intersection in this portion of the county therefore planning accepts this. Could.

J

Be interpreted as a mistake in the zoning at the time of the comprehensive rezoning.

J

So that was the mistake argument. As we said at the beginning, they are arguing both change and.

J

Mistake so if it's okay, I'm going to go right into the change arguments unless there's any questions.

A

That's fine, okay! So going on to the change in the character of the neighborhood, the petitioner.

J

Alleges a substantial change in the character of the neighborhood, the immediate surrounding.

J

Area has been subdivided into residential building lots and a commercial development is planned along.

J

Liberty, road, just east of the property, a refresher here is the neighborhood boundary and I believe.

J

These two northern properties are the properties that the subject property was divided off and.

J

Then again is just the neighborhood boundary that they are arguing. A substantial change occurred in.

J

And then staff conclusions further change argument is planning staff recognizes that the property was.

J

Legally divided off and though that is a change for the subject property. The petitioner has.

J

Failed to prove a substantial change in the entire neighborhood boundary. Furthermore, the maryland 26.

J

And 27 intersection has been zoned commercially since 1965 and prior to it be being zone c2. It.

J

Was zoned bg um contradicting the petitioner's argument that a substantial change has occurred.

J

So that's it for the arguments. um The staff recommendation on rezoning is planning staff.

J

Recommends that the zoning for the petition be rezoned to c2 or commercial medium, the.

J

Petitioner failed to prove a substantial change has occurred. Staff believes there is reasonable.

J

Information constituting a mistake in the zoning during the most current comprehensive rezoning.

J

So next steps is today we are here before you for a recommendation, favorable or unfavorable.

J

On rezoning this property to the county, commissioners, we are going to the county.

J

Commissioners, on september 29th for an introduction and a request to go to public.

J

Hearing we have a tentative date scheduled for the public hearing of october 20th and then we.

J

Have time scheduled with them on november 3rd for discussion and a possible decision.

J

So I realized that was a lot of information. No, that was very helpful. um Why don't we hear from.

A

Mr schaefer, thank you. We've got a tough argument on the substantial change issue, so I'm going to.

I

Submit on the record there and the reason that's a tough argument is because the facts are pretty.

I

Tough for us and the most recent comprehensive rezoning was so was so recent and generally.

I

Speaking when you make a change argument, you have to make the argument that the change occurred.

I

Since that most recent zoning and, furthermore, that it's not in accordance with the zone for.

I

The property, so it's it's really a narrow window. Mistake, however, is a very strong argument here.

I

um It it is, as staff recognizes this property and and many of these properties- and this is not.

I

A criticism of anybody when, when this was zoned, agriculture in 2020 or land use and then zoned.

I

Nobody took a look at this piece of ground and said: what should we do with this? They looked.

I

At generally, at an area- and they didn't change anything in almost the whole county, including.

I

This area now, if they and this is what staff recognizes in their report, if they would have.

I

Looked carefully as they are now and by the way uh mr sweet uh purchased, this property in 2020.

I

Missed by a couple weeks, the window for applying for the c2 in the individual thing and therefore.

I

It was never considered for par, as as part of that, it wasn't considered and turned down it.

I

Just didn't get looked at and as staff says, if it would have been, there would have been a favorable.

I

Recommendation they list the criteria that they looked at and I think nice job and also point.

I

Out uh that there's a very supportive language in the master plan document for this sort of rezoning.

I

In other words, in rural villages, encourage small neighborhood commercial development.

I

That is consistent with local character and that revitalizes historic properties now.

I

I know because I've been around here for a while and- and some of you know that this corner.

I

And especially that this particular corner has a a commercial history, it was. I knew it as wagner's.

I

Corner uh when I came to carroll county in 1978- and I remember being quite pleased.

I

And fascinated by the fact that you could get a first class cream of crab soup at a gas station.

I

In carroll county because it was a gas station and then you, you filled your gate. You went in through.

I

The little area where they took your money, because in those days they actually took your money for.

I

Gas and then you walk to the right and there was a dining room and it was a quite nice dining room.

I

We were really surprised- I was very anyway and that business thrived and it then, as many small.

I

Many restaurants, do it petered out. You know somebody that loved it and ran it, and then.

I

And then it was revised and and then it at one point well at one point they had a chippendale.

I

Show down there and the liquor board didn't like that, but it kind of went to a different uh before.

I

We were there, it went to a different kind of a wagner's corner operation um so max and his.

I

Significant other vanessa at some point, bought it and, and it's evolved into what I think you know.

I

Now, as vanessa's corner pub now uh during that uh saga, uh septic became a big issue, uh as anybody.

I

You all are now becoming more familiar with septic, probably than you ever wanted to be, but um you.

I

Can't put a restaurant on a lot that small and you know you just can't do it on a septic. If you.

I

Tried to do it now, there's no way you could do it. You couldn't meet the perks it'd be you'd, have to.

I

Buy another acre well, so so the zoning authority. I think they could have known that, but there's.

I

No evidence that they did know that about these septic problems. I mean the health department knew.

I

About it, but there's no real thing, so that is the kind of thing that in legal parlance, can classify.

I

As a mistake, you, when you zoned a piece of property, not you personally, but when the county's.

I

Own abuse, they didn't know certain facts that were important, one of which is that this, this property.

I

Needed more land to survive, and they also didn't know, maybe that the land next door to it was going.

I

To get cut out, it wasn't going to be, uh and I we did the work. I can't remember the 50 or 60 acre.

I

Farm, it was going to be six or seven lots, one of which was going to be seven acres located right.

I

Next to this and fronting on liberty, road with existing driveway entrances, um you know because.

I

It had been historically used, there was a is there an old house on there now there's a there's still.

I

An old, probably a teardown, so that that forms the sort of the the basis for our mistake argument and.

I

The once you get past the mistake argument and heather uh hannah hannah. I've seen you so many.

H

Times recently, I can't remember hannah uh correctly pointed out that once you that.

I

That's the first step the mistake or the change once you get past that, then you start looking.

I

At does this make sense, you know big deal, you showed there's a mistake. You're asking for c2.

I

You know we don't we don't like, it doesn't make sense there well here it makes eminent good.

I

Sense, it's it's in conformance with the master plan it it potentially allows the uh and and.

I

I'll tell you, you know it's no secret. One of the keys to this is that it would allow.

I

The redevelopment of that entire corner, uh um because it's under the control of essentially.

I

A single owner, a guy with a principal he can he can uh and and if he did redevelop uh it's.

I

Possible that vanessa's corner pub would be part of an uh an adjoining part of the adjoining piece.

I

um It's also not only possible it's for sure that any redevelopment would have to comply.

I

With the modern codes, so the result would be a better, not pumped out septic system and one.

I

That can meet the stormwater management rags and has enough land to do it, and it could be.

I

A real amenity, the last thing I'm going to say is that whether you agree with me that area.

I

Needs desires, a little more commercial development, I'm not talking about any big.

I

Shopping centers or anything out there, but it's not that's underserved by restaurants.

I

uh And other things anybody lives there. You know knows that or anybody that's been around there.

H

Knows that so uh we respectfully request your uh recommendation in accordance with the uh with.

I

The staff's recommendation uh to give the pla the commissioners a favorable recommendation and then.

I

We will look forward to presenting our uh case on mistake uh to them out of public hearing. Thank you.

A

You ever get anything else to add, I'm good, unless you guys have questions.

A

um So I have a little bit of a question. You know the change or mistake. We we throw.

A

Those terms around a lot when we have these zoning quests come in, but it's more as you.

A

Have said to us many times it's more than just simple change or just a simple mistake.

A

um And so it has to be a mistake in the existing zoning classification really and and I'm looking.

A

At the report and the and the bullet points that we have, I'm not I'm just having trouble following.

A

It a little bit so one of the the number one reason that forward to us that there is a mistake.

A

In the existing zoning classifications, because the subject property is located immediately, adjacent.

A

To an existing commercially zoned and commercially used restaurant bar vanessa's corner pub.

A

But so what I mean, it's also adjacent to an agricultural piece of property. Doesn't that cut.

A

Both ways I mean, how does how does that help us if I want to get to where you want us to go, help me.

A

Help me make that connection. Well, here's here's the connection. It may sound a little, but when.

I

Someone chose to place the agricultural zoning designation on this seven acre piece of ground.

I

I

I submit to you that when they did that they didn't necessarily say to themselves.

I

Is this located next to an existing commercial development? Now they certainly if they would.

I

Have focused on it, they would have been able to figure it out by looking at google earth or by.

I

Being familiar with the taylorsville area, if it would have been one of you or you know that lived.

I

In that area you would but there was no and- and I think that's one of the things that planning says.

I

Is that this didn't get looked at that carefully, so I would uh ask you to assume: maybe you're not.

I

Willing to assume that nobody said is this next to vanessa's corner pub and to take the argument. One.

I

Step further and vanessa's corner pub is is really too small. For you know it's got it's pro. It's.

I

Got septic problems probably didn't that that's something they almost for certainly did not know.

I

uh And may need to expand uh so that would form the basis for mistake. Argument uh mistake.

I

Is a a is a malleable kind of a concept in this thing there have been caseloads.

I

Says the mistake must be basic and actual, but there's also a case law. That says, if.

I

The zoning authority made assumptions which turned out not to be correct. uh Maybe one.

I

Of which, in this case could be that this is a viable agricultural piece of land.

I

um Another assumption which may or may not be correct by the zoning authority would be.

I

Gee this seven acre piece of land uh which, by the way, was only recently cut up into seven acres.

I

They, even though they it was on record, I doubt if they even knew they were dealing with a seven acre.

I

Piece, I don't know, but someone would have had to say if they considered it gee. That would be.

I

A great little uh a state lie for somebody where, um and I think that's part of what you do for for.

I

A living is you look at land, not for a living, but for whatever you, whatever your stipend, is.

O

But is when you look at a piece of land, you look, you look at the at the appropriateness of it and.

I

Does it move the community forward? Does it contribute to the tax base? Does it create.

I

A quality of life uh yeah that you could sell that seven acre lot for a single family uh and.

I

Have a residential driveway coming out on the 26 because it doesn't have any other frontage.

I

All right, uh but is that the is that the ideal is that the appropriate? So no, I'm now melding over.

I

Into the policy area, but um when you, when you look at that land, I think you can conclude that.

I

It was a mistake to to put an agricultural zoning designation on that. What's the zoning designation.

A

On the land, on the other side from vanessa's c, oh c2, I think she should. Can you put this up again.

I

Yeah you, you know, that's the other thing I'll point out to you. Is that and in terms of like.

I

A puzzle piece, you know, and it doesn't. Obviously it doesn't mean anything unless you consider it.

I

Further, but this fits really nicely, it fits right in it's we're not asking for commercial zoning in.

I

The middle of in the middle of taylorsville somewhere else we're coming right up against.

I

A fairly good sized commercial area here we're expanding that commercial area, but for good reason.

I

uh So that you can support some reasonable uh development and the expansion and survival of a an.

I

Existing business in carroll county. Thank you for answering my question. You all have other questions.

K

Or is that c2 yeah and the.

K

Liquor store what else? That's that's all c2 in the corner except yeah, and there is a there- is.

I

An approved site plan for the red area, that's on the south uh east southeast down further down.

I

Toward the purple line right, that's a approved site plan for a uh strip center, a retail strip.

I

Center and uh self storage, so vanessa's corner is c2, but the lot next to it is not correct.

K

Correct and the vanessa's corner light is just the front piece of that that smaller piece in the yep.

A

Any other questions.

A

So you need from us uh exactly what I'm asking for a recommendation uh from you.

I

To the planning commission to approve the uh rezoning, favorable or unfavorable.

J

Recommendation to the county commissioners, so what will happen just for clarity.

C

um Is the staff report that you have now in front of you? It has a staff recommendation, then we'll.

C

Put in the planning commission recommendation and then this will become your report- that we.

C

Forward to the board of county commissioners that they will utilize and their process and the first.

C

Step of which is, we request to go to public hearing and then have the public hearing and.

C

Then eventual discussion decision for adopting and changing the map, then, if there were any changes in.

K

You can blow up that corner rebuilding all that kind of stuff. It would have to go through the.

K

Normal, if so, the development process would be the same, so this is just changing the rules and.

C

Regulations essentially on the property from ag rules to now commercial, medium, c2 rules.

A

So you're seeking a motion for a favorable recommendation to the board of county commission.

A

Commission, correct that is the staff recommendation. Is there a motion to that effect?.

W

I'll make that motion okay. So we have a motion for a favorable recommendation to the board of.

A

County commissioners, is there a second okay, so we have a motion in a second uh for a favorable.

A

Recon recommendation to the board of county commissioners: is there any further discussion.

A

Can we just do a voice vote? Yes, okay, all in favor. Anyone opposed anyone. Understanding.

I

Thank you very much recommendation. Good luck! Thank you. All right.

A

All right next item is uh item 19 on our agenda, which is rezoning case 227.

A

Mjy investments and I believe, we're going to hear from ms hannah weber on this. Yes,.

W

Mr schaefer's clearing off his desk.

A

Good afternoon, okay, so, as was introduced, we are here for another rezoning case. This is.

J

Rezoning case 227, mjy investments and I'll. Let mr schaefer do his introductions again thanks clark.

I

Schaefer uh on behalf of the applicants, which is mjy, which is uh jeff and mark powers, and I.

I

Have marty hackett from clsi who's our land use consultant on this project? Thank you. Jumping in.

J

um You'll remember this was also introduced to you all at your august 31st meeting. This property is.

J

Approximately 10.192 acres, it is the home of the ymca, just north, of the intersection of 97 and 32.

J

um The argument for rezoning is both change and mistake. Again. The petitioner is requesting the.

J

Zoning be change from agriculture to c2. We are in election district 7 and commissioner district 3.

J

So we have a neighborhood boundary established. This is approximately 240 acres, I'm not going.

J

To go through every institution that is in this neighborhood boundary because you guys are very.

J

Familiar and there is a lot, um the uses are: a mix of residential institutional and commercial.

J

So inside the neighborhood boundary there is also a mix of zoning. We have our 10.

J

000 on the northern end of the neighborhood boundary, we have conservation of all of the.

J

Institutions also north of the property and then to the south. We have a c2 zoned property. This was.

J

Done during the comprehensive rezoning by request phase, as I'm sure you guys are familiar with.

A

I remember that one well.

J

Okay, as with the last one, this was also sent out for agency comments.

J

um Just some things to note in this one, this was sent to the city of westminster.

J

Because this property is inside their growth area boundary um also, we sent this to the baltimore.

J

Metropolitan council, specifically the reservoir technical group, because this property is located.

J

In the liberty reservoir and we receive no agency comments for this rezoning request.

J

So, as we said at the top, there is a argument for mistake in the current.

J

Zoning, the petitioner alleges mistake because the agriculture zoning designation.

J

Is inappropriate for the existing recreational family center multi-purpose use on the property.

J

The zoning designation does not recognize the substantial undeveloped area on the property.

J

And it is a mistake to apply the restrictive agricultural zoning classification, given the.

J

Substantial public infrastructure available in the area and just to go along with his.

J

Argument, the subject, property is 10.62 acres and approximately six acres are being used for.

J

The y, which leaves a little under four acres of undeveloped area, that zoned agriculture.

J

So staff concludes that the subject property could have been looked at more closely during.

J

The comprehensive rezoning effort on the subject property lies within the city of westminster's.

J

Growth area and given that it's a growth area, you don't really see a lot of agriculturally.

J

Zoned properties inside a growth area and also the existing infrastructure of water and sewer.

J

Services shows that maybe agriculture agriculture is not the best zoning district for this property.

J

Foreign, the petitioner is also alleging a substantial change in the character of the.

J

Neighborhood, the neighborhood essentially consists of the institutional, commercial.

J

Corridor, which has substantially grown in recent years, the property immediately to.

J

The south, as we discussed, was rezoned in 2020 during the by request phase.

J

The neighborhood has increased in use and intensity with new developments and there.

J

Has been substantial improvements to the nearby intersection of maryland 97 and 32.

J

Staff draws the following conclusions for the change in the character argument.

J

Looking at the annotated code and as was alluded to earlier, the change in the character of the.

J

Neighborhood may occur where new or expanded sewer facilities are shown where there is increased.

J

Traffic flow and or rezonings have been adopted, changes in the character of the neighborhood.

J

Prior to adoption of the comprehensive rezoning which for carroll county is 2020 may be considered.

J

Only in conjunction with subsequent changes, so planning recognizes that. Obviously there was a.

J

Rezoning to the south of the property, however, this does not mean there has been a substantial change.

J

In the entire neighborhood boundary, looking at the entire neighborhood boundary, there has been.

J

Insufficient improvements done to the neighborhood since the last comprehensive rezoning of 2020.

J

Which would constitute a substantial change in the overall character of the neighborhood.

J

So again we have the staff recommendation. Planning staff recommends that the zoning for.

J

The petition area be rezoned to c2 or commercial medium um planning staff feels that, though, the.

J

Petitioner failed to prove a substantial change occurred in the neighborhood. There is reasonable.

J

Information constituting a mistake in the zoning during the most current comprehensive rezoning.

J

And we have the same next steps if I can cut that part out. Okay,.

A

Thank you um so this one.

O

In my opinion, this is probably the mo one of the most the most interesting areas in carroll county.

I

In terms of zoning and planning, you've got the city boundary, which is jagged everywhere and and.

I

They're everywhere, but here pritz is in washington heights. Medical center is out. Okay, middlebrook is.

I

In farm museum's out, hospitals out uh and and so that whole corridor, I call it the corridor.

I

Including the center street corridor, which is one of the uh most uh well, it's a heavily developed.

I

Corridor, mostly institutional, but the mixtures of commercial and some residential uh which really.

I

Probably some some people will really not like me saying this, but it probably should be part of.

I

The city of westminster, I mean it's, it it it's urbanized and, and you know why it's urbanized.

I

Because the water and sewer system extends down there like crazy, okay um way outside the city.

I

Limits has for years and and westminster did that. So what you see in that corridor- and you.

I

Know is it developed uh based on non-conforming uses? I mean, uh I think, hoffman's ice cream is a.

I

Non-Conforming: okay, the medical center, uh the uh the david green, which now it's now called.

I

The professional center that is located there, where a1, auto repair, was as a replacement for.

I

A non-conforming use that was not zoned for that. So my point is that that that corridor begs to be.

I

Looked at and planning to its credit, uh it sort of acknowledges that, in its in its in its report,.

I

um Now I also and as as is pointed out- and I think this there is a change argument here- although I'm.

I

Not going to push it uh because this one, uh you know the the the the the uh youth services.

I

Bureaus major improvement: there happened before 2020, yes, but does that mean you can't count? It.

I

Here, uh that's on that's on a piece of granite's owned by the county or well. I think it's lease to.

I

The youth services bureau, um the major expansion, the votech, uh the uh the development and increased.

I

Use of the farm museum for events etc um and now and then, of course, the obvious one. At least.

I

In part, is the rezoning of the corner piece, uh the kiker, the kiker piece from agriculture to c2.

I

um Now, one little when the y, I remember when the y was built.

I

um And the y was built on a private, well and septic. I think it was definitely well.

I

And then very shortly thereafter, they had water problems and the city reluctantly.

I

Extended the line down there. In any event, uh we agree with planning. Obviously, here.

I

That when you look at this piece of land as we have now, you see that the a agricultural.

I

Zoning just doesn't make sense and I hate to be. You know I hate to say it's self-evident. It's a.

I

Mistake, but it's almost like no one could have looked at that thought about it considered it.

I

In its location and said, yeah agriculture, that's the ticket. uh You know, let's look at the uses.

I

Allowed in the ag zone that you could put that piece of ground through well, you could farm it.

I

Yeah, maybe maybe matt wants to come up there and put four acres of corn on it. I don't know uh I.

I

Doubt it uh uh because that that road's pretty heavy traveled, but it really doesn't pass the.

I

The smell test in terms of zooming and agriculture, and and so now we look at some other factors which.

I

Planning has pointed out, which is it's in the growth area. uh It's got ready access, it's infill.

I

Development, the kind of development that we want to encourage to occur there rather than squeezing.

I

Out across short lane, you know into the into the ag ag area. That is really the ag. There's a.

I

Lot of ag down there, when you get out of that, that corridor, which is great those those roads, create a.

I

A boundary probably a very, very long time boundary with water and sewer not going across them. So but.

I

If you don't allow the development to occur uh in your in your growth envelope, it's going to try to.

I

Squeeze out elsewhere, and that's not good so from a planning standpoint, this makes a lot of sense.

I

We think there's enough evidence on the stake and or change to support it, and uh we would appreciate.

I

We hope you will, you will agree with the planning commissions or the planning staff's recommendation.

I

uh By the way, by the way, one more point- this is not a this is not a plan to get rid of the ymca.

I

They have a, they have a long-term lease there, and this is not a plan to to get rid of the ymca.

I

This is a plan to look at the development potential of the remaining parcel. There.

A

The the use of the ymca on the property is that a principal permitted use in c2 with that.

I

You know that's a good question.

A

Well, why are you doing that? Just a couple, quick comments, one um I I do agree. This seems to be.

A

Sort of a bastion of non-conforming uses that has developed over the years, and it is now what.

A

It is, I don't know how we missed it doing the comprehensive rezoning, because we focused on.

A

That little piece down at the end- and I as I say I remember that discussion very well- that's because.

C

That was a buy request, so the property came over and requested during that time. Okay, but.

V

We didn't take the zoning, and just a little bit of history, too, is that this particular property.

C

Within the municipal growth area was governed under the county environs plan, then the city.

C

Updated their plan, which included this area in the westminster plants, we have a lot of conflicting.

C

Overlapping plans and so moving forward. The hope is to get this all situated with a more cohesive.

C

Plant from both the city and county together and that plan was 2009, the environ's plan. Okay, so.

A

I don't know what happened in 2020, but um it just. It does seem self-evident when we.

A

Look at what's happening on the ground and, what's developed, it isn't agriculture, it.

A

Just doesn't, and it seems like the zoning ought to reflect what's there, and so um I I very much.

A

Agree that this this seems to meet the standard for our mistake. So and yes, it is, it's allowed.

C

As a it's, a primary principle using the sea to indoor recreational facilities, okay, thank you.

A

Any other questions or comments, I guess I would ask I mean in that I think I read in the brie.

W

In the summary hannah that you provided, that westminster has it designated in their plan.

W

Is conservation, why not conservation yc2? Why not conservation that was requested by the applicant.

A

The conservation was requested, the c2 c2's requested. I mean you know, that's.

W

The other way right is to say well, what's north of it is conservation.

W

You know why was it made conservation initially.

W

um And across the street is ag right. Everything across the street is agricultural yeah, okay, so.

W

Again, I get that I get why I was overlooked because it's it's also got agriculture across the.

W

Street, it's not I'm. What I'm sitting here saying is. I don't think it's just blatant a mistake as.

W

You think I'm not averse to making it commercial, but I'm also not averse to saying you know what.

W

um Let's just make the whole court or not conforming and call it the non-conforming corridor.

O

um But you know it: it might also make sense to make it conservation. If that's what westminster.

W

Also, has it designated um observation: designation came about a long time ago, as a kind of a de facto.

C

Institutional zoning designation and I'm going to be asked. We are, you know, obviously, with the.

C

Ag conservation districts we're looking at changing that um to some extent and making.

C

Conservation, more conservation in its approach to the rules and regulations for that zoning district.

I

Yeah, mr lester, um they used to you still have it. It used to be that they had public conservation.

I

And and conservation, and what the county did and linda's dealing with this, I think still, although.

I

She dealt with it a little bit during the maybe a lot, but she said no, no, no! No! No! No! You can't.

I

Just conservation, then you look into code and you don't see a public conservation in the code. You go.

I

And you load conservation for water works and and and and forest conservation, and that kind of thing.

I

So that's how the this was an institutional corridor and they just slapped it on there.

I

um The the only other point I'll make is this: you almost never see uh maybe net. I don't I'm.

I

Never I'm never going to say never, but you almost never see conservation land. That's.

I

Served by public water and sewer it just doesn't fit. You don't want it. You want to use your systems.

I

If you've got water and sewer systems in place, you don't want to zone it, so people can't were.

I

Discouraged from using them, it makes it to your point with that. Mde does not allow that moving.

C

Forward properties that are zone conservation are not allowed in the water and sewer master.

C

Plan when we have, when we send it up to mde they've comment on that same can't, have it in.

C

That district, if I may add yes in this situation, you'll find it, I believe in carroll county.

AD

On all the school properties, I believe they zoned them conservation, because schools and colleges.

AD

Are a permitted use in the conservation zone so they're not a non-conforming use.

AD

um If you, if you re, I mean it's in the zoning race, schools and colleges are allowed.

AD

So but in this situation, if you look at that whole corridor right there.

AD

Either it's either owned by the board of ed or carroll county. It's a college! It's a high.

AD

School, it's an elementary school. It's a youth service center. It's emergency services, training.

AD

Facility that whole area is quasi it's public. This is besides the residential. This is probably.

AD

uh Those two properties at the corner: there are the only two pro privately held and privately.

AD

Type of use in that whole carter- and I think that sets it apart a little bit well, there are.

I

Small businesses peppered throughout there, but anyway your point's well paid businesses correct.

AD

But the most of the some of the businesses are on the opposite side of the road. That's correct. The.

AD

Landscape yard and all that and they're actually non-conforming. There are 20 in our 10.. That's.

A

Correct but I know when we were looking at that piece at the bottom, where 32 and 9 7 intersect.

A

You know we were doing wasn't that part of the comprehensive rezoning the buyer request portion.

C

I request yes, but we still take a longer term view of property and how it's likely to be used.

A

Over the next many years and the idea was given the public water public sewer infrastructure that.

A

It made sense to be to recognize that it has the commercial potential, given the investment.

A

In that, in that infrastructure, this obviously is adjacent to that, and at least from my way.

A

Of thinking is it matches up with what we were thinking when we looked at that piece of property.

A

One just to the south of it um so anyway, that's I'm one person um any other thoughts or questions.

A

Well, is anyone inclined to make a motion to uh for a favorable recommendation.

A

The board of county commissioners, mr chairman uh public comment: oh yes, you're right! Thank you.

A

We have to make that a standing reminder. Yes, I'll hold up a sign you're on the agenda yeah. Thank you.

O

Are there any members of the public that would like to comment on this property all right? Thank.

A

You councilman all right now is there anyone that would be interested in making a motion that, for.

A

A favorable recommendation to the board of county commissioners, I said I'll make the motion that we.

F

Give it a favorable pass to the commissioners all right? Second, so we have motion and a second for a.

A

Favorable recommendation to the board of county commissioners: is there any further discussion.

A

All in favor aye aye anyone opposed understanding again. Thank you. Thank.

AD

You very much thank you very much by the way we're going to have an 18-foot driveway.

A

All right, we have, uh why don't we take a five minute recess, so we get things set.

A

Up for the last two items? Yes, five minutes now this is the final stretch. I promise you.

A

A

All right good afternoon, everyone now we're in the home stretch um we'll go to item 21, .

A

You hear that 21 items 21. just shoot me now: employment, campus solar text and then.

C

Today and thank you all for your patience, um we have two text amendments uh to discuss with you.

C

Today, these were discussed at your august meeting um and we do have a text amendment.

C

Portion of our website- and I'm sorry, this is really big. I can't change the layout, but we.

C

Have the zoning text amendment process and lay it out on this portion of the planning website.

C

And in this portion we have when it was initiated the zoning categories, the changes apply to.

C

um Who initiates the text amendment and a link to the proposed changes and if it was referred.

C

Or not to the planning commission which it has been from the board, then we'll follow through.

C

With your recommendation and then the public hearing date etc, so the first text amendment.

C

For your consideration, again is the amendment to the employment campus district regarding solar.

C

The allowance of freestanding ground mounted solar. This was brought forward by the county and county.

C

Staff specifically in public works pertaining this would apply to all employment campuses.

C

But specifically to the baby property, and the reason is, is that this is an ideal location for.

C

The underutilized portion to be used for energy conversion facilities that are ground mounted.

C

So, as we've said before, solar energy is allowed in our employment campus district, but it had to.

C

Be either roof mounted? It's part of a parking lot feature, um I think, you've all have seen.

C

Those types of canopies before that go on parking lots that are the solar structure.

C

um The request here is to also allow the ground mounted solar as a standalone entity. Aside from.

C

Any developed development structures in terms of a solar field and to have those guard rails to.

C

Have it be no more than 25 acres in size or not to exceed 50 percent and one of the changes from the.

C

Last time you saw this that we worked on was to make it the total gross acreage. So not just saying.

C

50 of the acreage, but the gross acreage- um or whichever is lesser so that way max 25 acres, would.

C

Be the total allowance for the solar field? What's the distinction between acres and gross acres.

C

Usable um versus the the net after you take out. Thank you. What what the unusable portion is.

A

So you're changing it to say 25, I mean um 50 of the usable gross other growth, whether.

A

It's usable or not: that's right, okay, thank you or to max out at 25, no matter what okay.

C

um And uh that these solar energy facilities may be par approved as part of a development plan.

C

um I'm sorry that underlying story- that's not supposed to be there. The roof, bouncer.

C

We're always loud, oh I apologize, I'm roof. Mountains were always allowed.

C

um And then the other change would make that also from prohibited to a conditional use.

C

So again, we'd have to go through our one other step board of zoning appeals processes, foreign.

C

And then the final change would be to.

C

uh What our solar generating energy generating systems, which is 158153.

C

um Specifically, this particular portion here that says solar energy conversion facility.

C

Shall be permanent in the c2 district when roof mounted ground mounted systems are permitted.

C

By conditional use in the c2 and the employment campus district, so adding that here so that way it.

C

um Relates back to the conditional use, use table and again putting the size limit here.

C

As well so it's in two places in the code, the actual employment campus portion and then the.

C

Actual discussion of what an energy conversion facility is- um and this is just the rest of what.

C

The definitions are for solar energy, and that would be the only two portions of the code that.

C

Would be amended um for this text. Amendment portion um scott graph is here from the board.

C

Of public work and board of public works, I'm sorry from the department of public works. If.

C

He has any additional information he'd like to add regarding um this proposed text. Amendment.

C

Nope, are there any questions, comments or concerns? This is pretty straightforward text amendment for this.

C

Particular district, I think it also helps that you brought it up to us before so. We've had a.

A

Chance to noodle it through a little bit. Do you all have any questions or comments about this.

W

I I I I I I will say that when it comes to these the issue of solar again, I'm for it.

W

But we continually are asked to waive setbacks and those kinds of things when it comes to this.

W

Kind of thing and linda I'm getting off topic- and I know to you, want to talk about this- I want.

W

To talk about it from a 30 000 foot level, I really want to hold the line on those setbacks and things.

W

Going forward so when you as staff and when you review these plans and you bring them forward.

W

I'm just going to say from here: I'm I'm unless there's extenuating circumstances that warrant.

W

Us you know reducing those setbacks and and reducing buffers and all those kinds of things.

W

Because, again as a county, I think we want to be proactive in this area, so this is good. I'm.

W

Supportive of this to stay on target, but when it comes also when we start thinking about.

W

What we want our county to look at look like 20, 30, 40 years from now, and and how these solar farms.

W

Fit into that, you know, I do want there to be a visual buffer between these um uh farms and and.

W

The roads homes whatever to where you know when we see our county, it hasn't turned into a solar field.

W

And so that's just a comment and I apologize because I'm making an editorial comment but.

W

But we've talked about it earlier today in terms of variances and- and you know, mitigating.

W

Circumstances and everything's unique and I get it y'all are asked to to to do things. Certainly.

W

um And I'm making a longer meeting longer by saying this, but I just I really want to encourage.

W

Us as a group to kind of have some backbone in terms of for our county and our citizens,.

W

This is something we're trying and let's do it right and if we want to you know foreign.

W

The setbacks on down the road: well then, let's let the staff say that that's the number.

W

But I think we ought to be um pretty firm in that going forward. So anyway we get the.

A

Site plans and things that come forward we'll look at each one. That's right, you know, and we.

A

Can take into account elevation changes? That's right, all the other things that come up, because.

W

Your points well every site's unique and I get that. But again again, I I every we're going to.

W

Be asked every time we've seen it they've all asked us to to modify, modify it, and I think we.

W

Ought to be holding the line a little bit stronger, but as to this you're in favor? Yes, sir, what do you.

A

Need from us on this, do you need a vote yeah? So what we need now so again, what we do with the.

C

Actual map rezonings is the same here. We need a recommendation for you to forward to the board.

C

Of county commissioners for their consideration to go to public hearing, um and so in this case.

C

Would be the text amendments as we've presented? If there are no modifications from this body, it would.

C

Be as I've prepared it to afford up to the board of county commissioners for their consideration.

C

With a favorable recommendation, favorable unfavorable, if you want modification to it,.

K

So it's in her hands, of course, I'm sorry to prolong it as well. Linda you mentioned when.

K

You're doing your presentation, there's a max out of 25 acres is that for the ground system.

K

Yes, that's what our proposals for the ground mounted, so that's that's a little different.

K

Than when we heard westminster solar last month, I think part of the uh in industrial zones. There.

K

Was no size limit for ground mounted systems? So that's a change. Well, no, this. That is not.

C

Different zoning district altogether: okay, we're talking about the employment campus district.

C

K

Number 121. see when we get to these high numbers I can understand. This is why this is tough.

A

So no you're, okay with this in terms.

A

All right so uh so we need a motion to forward to the board of county commission.

A

Correct a favorable recognition, a move that we've approved this and forward it to the.

W

Commissioners with the favorable recommendation, second, all right, so we have a motion. A second.

A

To that effect, any further discussion in favor all right. Anyone opposed or abstaining.

A

Good on to the florida county commissioners, it goes commissioner wentz.

B

Got a whole list here today: full employment, you're, cleaning off your desk. Yes, we are.

C

I don't know before this board um get it to this office that we would like to get.

C

A couple of these items complete and start and finish with this board, and so this last.

C

Item would be one of those as well. Okay! Well, that's important! So, um let's get to 22 72.

A

Days but who's counting, that's right! That's how many minutes 71 and a half for this one.

A

um All right, so we have what is this il and c3 district text amendments? Yes,.

C

Yes, um brought forward on august 4th uh to doing a text amount for the industrial light.

C

I1 and the commercial heavy c3 district, the request was brought for by st john properties.

C

And it's a very complex proposal, there's a lot of moving parts. Here we went to the board of.

C

County commissioners, first, as we always do, and then the re referring body to this commission.

C

For these text amendments, we don't come before you as staff or property owners.

C

And bringing this information to it always goes to the commissioner commissioners. First as the.

C

Executive and legislative branch to forward to you all for your review and consideration.

C

um So this is again one of those amendments that was brought to our attention by an applicant that.

C

We followed the process and you've seen this before. As I said at that introduction in august.

C

So um part of this is to add a definition to 158, um specifically 002, to add a definition of the.

C

Business industrial park we've had business industrial parks for quite some time, but.

C

We only had one particular property develop under the business industrial park. Provision.

C

So when the c1 c2c3 i1 i2 districts were created, the business industrial park essentially went away.

C

For all districts, except where it was existing, currently moving forward in the industrial.

C

Districts, the i1 and i2, it was referred to as an industrial park moving forward and specifically.

C

um In the c3 and the c2, I'm sorry in the c3 district, only it was called a business park.

C

And the idea of those was to um in the industrial portion, allow kind of a mixed use of some sort to.

C

Allow some commercial, but not let commercial, take over so much that those industrial parks really.

C

Are not industrial any longer um same with the business park that we'd allow some types.

C

Of later industrial uses, but not so much so that they would become complete industrial.

C

In your commercial zoning districts, so that's why we just have this business.

C

Industrial park as it currently stands, it's only um allowed in the eye, one that was.

C

Prior to april 1 of 2019., so at the time when we revised the code for those c1c2c3.

C

Et cetera districts, we did not put in the business industrial park as a definition, because there's.

C

Only one- and there would only ever be one but the applicant requested just for clarity's sake,.

C

um To to add this, so we're coming before you now, and that is the purpose of the addition of this.

C

Particular definition, so this relates basically to the single property. That's yes um down the st.

A

John's property: that's down on off of 26 outside of eldersburg, correct they're, the only one um in.

C

The county under that provision, so they wanted to see a definition just along with that, even.

C

Though this is already in the code um but as the definition as well so just bringing that forward.

C

um And then um just some cleanup here um in these uh business industrial park under d.

C

um We just had it as um I believe, just business park, so making a clear business.

C

And industrial park same for um d1 the now addition to the business industrial park.

C

Is to have the allowance of self-service storage facilities. These are currently prohibited in.

C

Business slash industrial parks, so the amendment before you is to allow those self-storage.

C

Facilities in the business industrial park do I I jump in just real quick about that. One they're not.

AE

Actually prohibited in the business industrial park, they count as a commercial use in the.

AE

Business industrial park and so they're, subject to an area limitation, so the proposed request is.

AE

To exempt them, along with what already is exempt in the medical and dental centers from that area,.

AE

Limitation, no thank you for the clarification. No. Thank you that's correct. Thank you.

C

um Again now this also affects section two of that, with the exception of the uses listed in.

C

150791C regarding the size of any individual commercial use that black text is all existing.

C

Language, the new language to requested to be added is self storage facilities shall.

C

Be regulated by the requirements of 158079, which shall prevail over any conflict or.

C

Inconsistency with any other provisions required pursuant to this chapter, the requirements shall.

C

Not apply to self-surge storage facilities developed within the business industrial park.

C

And then number five of that has to do specifically with parking.

C

um And again, you have seen parking be an issue with these self service storage facilities.

C

um And it rests with your body to um allow a variance in the reduction of parking. We know.

C

That these sites don't require a lot of parking, and I will say that it is our part of what I.

C

Would like the planning department to work on as part of its uh next year's plan of projects is.

C

To review parking requirements across the county across all zoning districts because, as we know and.

C

The pandemic shed additional light on this, we're probably over parking. We, we plan parking for the.

C

Peak of the holiday season, but not necessarily what's really needed all year, long sweet over.

C

Park and we have these seas of parking lots of something we'd like to look at. But given that.

C

This is just specifically, this part of the request is just for this one particular property feel it's.

C

Appropriate to look at it for this particular use as we're in this particular section of the code.

C

At this time, but the future um we are going to be looking at it comprehensively like we've done.

C

The rest of the county code, but for parking, so this would be a reduction in the parking.

C

And then this has to do again just with clarification and signage pertaining to.

C

The business industrial park and again c is, in addition to the signage allowed.

C

Each building within the business park may have signs with in accordance with 158114.

C

C

Okay, so that wraps up the portion that is specifically for the business slash.

C

Industrial park and the I want, and what I'd like to do is take each one of these district.

C

Components at a time kelly is there anything else that you and your clients would like to.

C

Add regarding the specific amendment portion, um I just would like to add. Thank you linda.

AE

Related to the signage- and this I said at our last meeting, so I'm repeating myself, but I think.

AE

It bears uh repetition, there's this the proposal. There is a clarification proposal. It's not viewed.

AE

As adding any signage that would otherwise be allowed, um I think I also said this, but the way.

AE

I look at it at is trying to to forecast how jay voit is going to interpret the zoning code and or.

AE

Anybody sitting in his shoes and try to make it as clear as possible so that, if he's not around.

AE

To say, oh yeah, this is what was intended. You can read it and know what was intended, and so that was.

AE

The impetus for the business slash industrial park definition because it was actually one of.

AE

Our engineers was reading it and he went. You know that can be a little confusing where you can think.

AE

That that means a business or an industrial park, not this section of the code, and we said that's.

AE

An interesting point, so a lot of the that is clarification and as linda just summarized.

AE

um Exempting self-store self-service storage from the area um cap would be is one of the.

AE

Substantive changes that we see of that provision, uh the parking related to self-service storage.

AE

And the the general parking ratio, and then those are really the only two substant. What we view as.

AE

Substantive changes to that section of the code, the others were really just intended more from.

AE

That clarification standpoint and the signage piece is just making clear that there can be.

A

Separate signs throughout the business industrial park. Yes, it's it's attempting to marry this.

AE

Section with the overall signage section that lays forth the specific requirements here and.

AE

I'll also mention, and I'm sure jay will speak up if he feels I'm misrepresenting this, but we did.

AE

Have an initial meeting prior to submitting for this text amendment with mr voit to kind of walk.

AE

Through all of these changes to not only hear his feedback but also make sure he agreed that this.

AE

Is you know a good way of wording these things to allow for that interpretation, and so because.

AE

We wanted the intent here was to have something where mr voig reads it and understands. Obviously,.

AE

What the intent is as well sure- and it's always nice if the public can understand it as well.

AE

The goal right eliminate for the public eye- I'm right there not suggesting that. No, but.

O

All right, thank you all right, so you need a vote from us uh to approve the I one yeah.

F

Okay, thank you, foreign on the website. We have um a comparison chart of the.

C

Business lash industrial park we business park in the industrial park so again.

C

um As miss miller had said, the substantive changes again have to do with those restrictions on the.

C

Limitation of the 15 percent that self storage would not be candid in that limitation again, the.

C

Reduction in parking and the clarification regarding additional signs for each use.

C

And those were the big substantive changes so you'd like a motion that.

A

We approved the text amendments as to the i1.

A

And forward to the board of county commissioners with a favorable recommendation.

C

um With the i1 specifically pertaining to business, industrial business parks, correct.

W

I do have a question um linda. I was taken aback a couple months back when.

W

Somebody proposed a five-story storage facility. Is there a height restriction.

W

And what is the height restriction in this area? I believe it's 50 feet.

W

So you got what eight foot eight eight ten feet of floor, a a one, two foot plenum: what do we got guys.

W

How many, how many stores can you get in a fight in the 50 feet? On theory, you could probably get.

AN

Five stories, but that's not what it's not what we would be proposing if yeah but yeah, good, okay,.

A

But that wasn't in the business industrial cars I mean this is only as it relates to business.

W

Correct this is only yeah I get I get. I agree with that. My thought process here is: do we have.

W

A hook and ladder that can hit five stories. I don't know the answer to that. You know you.

N

Do do we have it? Yes, we got it: okay, okay, yeah! Typically, it's it's! uh You look at it. 10 feet.

B

Per story and most of our towers or ladder trucks are 100 foot wow. I did not know that.

W

That's good to know: okay, I'll, relax, okay, so and again, this is just related really to one.

A

Property that we're talking about right, these provisions are related to one specific property.

C

That meets that criteria. Okay, yep! All right. Are you satisfied? Yes, sir? Okay? Thank you, sir.

B

Okay, anytime, you want to get all the way up to 100 foot and lean out over the top. Let me know.

O

And a base jumper.

A

All right pass on making a motion yeah. Sorry, I'm back.

A

I'm making a motion he wants out here. Matt. Do yourself I'll, let peter do it.

F

Oh yeah, I'm moved that we approve the amendments.

W

Business industrial, um so that you're you're going to be forwarding according to the commission,.

C

um With approval, when I've linda articulate it and then we can do it, you're going to be.

C

Forwarding um 150 8002 the definition of the business industrial park as well as 158079.

C

Specifically pertaining to business industrial parks to the board of county commissioners, a.

V

Favorable recommendation a move that we do that and approve it and move it on up to the board of.

W

Commissioners- okay, a second, a second okay, so we have a motion which will incorporate by reference.

A

What linda just articulated into our motions and a second that does the same? Is there any further.

A

Discussion all in favor all right. You want to opposed or abstaining. Okay, okay, you know what.

A

I didn't ask if anybody from the public would like to comment. I missed that again. Whatever.

A

Anybody want to comment, I don't believe we have any additional members from the public here today.

C

All right, so the next part of this again now is with the.

C

um I1 industrial park section, which is the 158156.

C

Thank you. Okay,.

AE

um When did I for me, it's not in the chart, but the bulk requirements were.

AE

In the middle there, I wasn't sure if you were going to present those before the.

AE

um I'll come back to that: okay, yeah, okay,.

C

Yeah I'll go I'll, go to this really quickly. I apologize. I think that they are in the chart.

AE

I'm sorry just you know, okay. Well, then I'll go back to I apologize. I was kind of like following.

C

um The next has to do um with 158.08 for commercial and industrial districts, both.

C

Requirements- um and this is regarding um where there's a zero yard is proposed.

C

Setback buffers and landscape screening requirement shall not be applicable.

C

And that's 150 808 4 item six um and also under bulk requirements within the industrial. So one.

C

Was in the commercial, the a b is in the industrial in the same request. Is there where d, where a zero.

C

Yard is proposed that back buffers or landscape screening requirements shall not be applicable.

C

um Miss miller did you want to add anything to that as well? We do have a visual if it would be.

AE

Helpful of the existing liberty exchange- this is really talking about those interior lot lines of.

AE

These sorts of parks, which are often and I'm sure tom pelona, can speak more specifically to this, but.

AE

Often subdivided for purposes of financing, and so there are, even though you wouldn't really see it.

AE

On the ground, there are property lines in between and so on those interior lot lines as a result of.

AE

The most recent comprehensive text amendment um we figured out how to word it to accommodate that, but.

AE

What we didn't foresee is that there would still be potentially depending on who's interpreting it.

AE

Landscaping and requirements as if that were still a true property line, so I brought really matt.

AE

Brought several copies of the liberty exchange plans you can see, and this would basically just.

AE

AE

And see regulations to those interior, 0 lines.

W

So you're, primarily talking about shared courts, is that what we're talking about.

AE

Is it bisex parking? um You can see how some of these property lines you.

AE

Wouldn't necessarily notice, if you were not looking at this appointment, this makes sense.

W

So does this: is there a language in here that says and stipulates that these setbacks.

W

Provided that the the setbacks in question are interior to the property as it have, we.

W

Are we confident that that's that the way we've worded this it captures that notion.

AE

um Can you clear the first sentence, that's already in there.

AE

um Yes, both sides of an interior lot line, got it okay. I got it at least. I hope so, because that was.

AE

uh That was the initial discussion back during the comprehensive text amendment you got it all right.

A

So here's here's the question. um As I read six, it says when a zero yard is proposed.

A

Setbacks ball for xander landscaping. Screening requirements shall not be applicable.

A

We look down here at pad a or pad b or pad c.

A

If we want to have some landscaping put in around those, does this mean that we can't.

AN

For purpose of an interior outline, if it's an interior outline the answer, is it wouldn't those.

AN

Requirements wouldn't come wouldn't uh wouldn't apply apply. I would say that that there's never.

AE

Any I mean my my statement would be: there's, never anything stopping this commission during concept.

AE

Review phase to say: here's what we'd like to see here our design comments. But yes, this.

AE

um This texas amendment would say that on those interior lot lines where there, where.

AE

It's proposed to be zero, which is perhaps not always the case, but sometimes it is that then.

AE

You would also not have to accommodate for the typical landscape buffer requirements.

L

So if we said we would like to see some additional landscape there, they wouldn't have to do that.

L

Theoretically, it would be yes, it would be subject to whatever the ordinary landscape.

AE

Requirements were if there were any uh in a zero lot line situation. So at this point in.

AE

Time there would probably be no, I don't know, I can't speak off the top of my head. I can this.

AN

Came to our attention when actually our our engineers, landscape architect, was looking at.

AN

The various sections of the code and when the comprehensive rewrite of the commercial.

AN

Industrial zone was taking place. There was a pretty extensive conversation about these zero.

AN

Lot lines and when you read the language there, it says the yards on both sides can be zero means.

AN

There is no, you could have two buildings budding up against each other, so there's an inherent.

AN

Conflict with the requirements of the landscape manual and things like that, so where you've got.

AN

These things running through the truck courts, the parking areas and things like that doesn't.

AN

It's just a conflict, and this is clarifying that under that scenario, you wouldn't you wouldn't.

AN

Be required to do the landscaping and the buffers, because you don't have any yard to do it in right.

A

So that makes sense to me it's the effective. But if we look down here at pad pick pad c.

A

um And right now I think there's nothing on pad c right that hasn't been right.

A

um Is there would this be a zero? Does this fall under a zero yard proposal.

A

Would it just be right here yeah, the answer is it could and if it does, then um the setbacks buffers.

A

And landscape requirements shall not be applicable, so we can say we want all kinds of landscaping and.

A

um You can point to the code and say I don't think so on the interior lot line, so it would be if it.

AE

Would be interior to the park itself? Not that not the the very bolded black line here, which.

AE

Is the exterior line of all of the property that st john has developed as liberty exchange right.

A

But anything within the big thick black lines, which would be pad a or pad, b or pad c, if you're.

A

Bringing us a site plan- and we say we'd like to see some landscaping around this- this would seem.

A

To say that you can say we're not going to put any landscaping around those buildings to the interior.

AN

The way this is drafted, yes, that would be it's not it's not what we're trying to intend we're.

U

Trying to get it to set up so that we can do what we've typically done with these totally understand.

A

That I just want to, we always worry about it. So if we said requirements may not be applicable, is.

W

That that softens it a bit and and we all get what you're trying to do- and I understand you know how.

W

You structure these partnerships and each building might be in its own unique ownership structure.

W

I get the reason you want to do this at the same time, from a from a approval standpoint, if we were.

W

To strike shall and insert may does that get us to where you want to be. I guess my concern would be.

AN

Is that it could it it's the right question to be asking, I think, okay, um my concern is that it could.

AN

Swing the other way where someone says well, we want to impose in the middle of that and it would.

AN

Be totally unreasonable, but in the middle of that truck court we think there should be a landscape.

AN

Buffer or something like that, so I think the question is: how do you, how do you get there yep.

C

But just for clarity, you still have landscape requirements to fulfill like so this would not.

C

um Be blanketed that they didn't have to meet certain landscape requirements. They would the.

C

Overall plan would have to all we're seeing is interior to each other. We don't have to put.

C

Anything there necessarily, I think the language is actually in the code now that I reread it, the.

AN

The part that's in black, says an interior lot. Lane may be zero. There's your main language.

AN

So, as the planning commission, I would think under the and as the planning staff and such as they're.

AN

Reviewing things they could say: well, that's not appropriate for a zero outline. Therefore,.

AN

The landscape manual would apply, but where we're approving it with a zero lot line, it won't apply.

AN

And that would that would actually resolve. I think the question that you're asking it is.

AN

Interesting I'll pay myself later for that one yeah.

A

Janice has to run so yeah. Sorry, okay, thank you. Thank you. Miss kirkner. It's been a long day.

C

um So do we want to take a vote before she leaves really quickly or are you on approving.

A

Okay, can you articulate the most yes, so the motion would be um uh 158.08 for commercial, industrial.

C

Districts bulk requirements um to allow um where there's a zero yard proposed zero setbacks and.

C

Buffers and landscaping required shall not be applicable. Okay, I will make that motion.

AJ

With a favorable recommendation, okay, so we have a motion in a second discussion: all in favor, aye, aye.

A

Opposed I forgot to ask the public no public's come in since last time. Well, jim said he was.

AN

Going to remind you about it, did someone abstain? Okay, okay. I thought I heard it he's unanimous.

C

Okay, all right, perfect I'll, take all the help I can get so.

C

Thank you um all right coming down now the real final final stretch. um The next is specifically to.

C

The industrial park itself, which is found in the I-1 district 158156.

C

The first request is to expand the retail square footage it is currently set at 10.

C

000 feet and that is to move it from 10 000 feet to 25 000 square feet in size.

C

um And then to under section three wait: can you go back there? One second.

W

So it says retail store, greater.

W

Do we mean greater than.

AE

Yes- and I think we dumped a word yeah yeah. Thank you.

AN

That's an existing typing on the code. No, I don't think so.

C

So, okay, thank you so we'll make sure we add that as we forward it to the.

C

Commissioners, greater than 25 um will not be permitted.

C

The following principal uses are also permitted by right with.

C

um In the industrial park, without being subject to the percent limitations, above so again, almost.

C

Like with the self storage that you have with the 15, the same request is being made for medical and.

C

Dental centers within the industrial park so to allow those to be included but not go against.

C

The 20 percent limitation for these types of uses, the not industrial uses within the industrial park.

W

And linda again, there are no other places. This applies so unintended.

W

Consequences wise we're not adversely impacting or or.

W

This is, we don't know yet: we've never we've never developed an industrial park. Okay, so this is based.

C

Under the new code under i1- and we haven't had any development projects come forward. Yet with this.

C

Industrial park uh provision, but they could so yes, so.

W

I don't understand why we wouldn't right. Okay, I'm sorry! It's okay, great.

C

um And then the next is number five multiple non-industrial accessory use may be permitted.

C

Provided that no accessory should sell, exceed 5 000 square feet, except a daycare center or health.

C

Club which may be up to six thousand square feet and provided that in aggregate the non-industrial.

C

Accessory uses do not exceed 10 percent of the acreage of the entire industrial park.

C

To the extent that this section conflicts with the section of 158.083b2, the provision of this.

C

Section shall prevail um this mode. Do you want to clarify the intent with this particular? Yes,.

AE

Yes, absolutely sorry, I only laugh because it is like the code sections. If you don't do this and.

AE

Look at this every day it gets very confusing. This is again just intended as a clarification.

AE

That section that it's referencing is the after the use chart and the code there is an accessory.

AE

Use section of the code that is related to the industrial and commercial districts and.

AE

We just wanted to clarify that, to the extent that there's anything that conflicts with the.

AE

Accessory use allowance in this paragraph that this would be what would control in.

AE

An industrial park development we didn't see anything that we thought immediately.

AE

But it just seemed like because it was in two sections: it warranted saying that if.

AE

You're developing as an industrial park- and I won this- is what applies to you so you're.

A

Just setting a priority if there is a conflict right, we know this isn't going to govern right.

A

And that has nothing to do with the section about medical and dental centers and that sort of thing.

A

Right! No, if you, if you want me to jump back the medical and dental centers again similar to.

AE

The self-service storage in the business slash industrial park, medical and dental centers are.

AE

Already allowed in um in industrial parks, this proposal would be to exempt them from the area.

AE

Limitation they're not accessories, correct, correct. Yes, yes, thank you and then the next one has to.

C

Do with the subdivision of the industrial park when we originally developed this.

C

There was no additional subdivision, or there was a cat. I guess I should say acreage limit.

C

On the subdivision provision and the request is to remove that that it shall be proven to.

C

Be subdivided at the option of the developer, and a lot of this has to do with financing a.

C

Particular parks so to speak and that they can, you know, kind of break it up under different.

A

Right exactly exactly so, that's what that provision um has to deal with um and then.

C

The other provision, again, we addressed this um with the self storage and the business.

C

Industrial park, and again this is something that um we are planning's intent is to revise all of.

C

The parking requirements in the future um and just see what some of the best practices are again, this.

C

Would now pertain to beyond again the business industrial park and the go to all industrial.

C

Parks and then the same request is being asked in the commercial flipped version. The business.

C

Park for both of these, where um subdivide and to change the parking requirements for self storage.

A

So we're getting started on limiting parking spaces now, um yes, if you'd like um I mean.

C

There's nothing developed under these models now or you know if this is something we want.

C

To wait when we look comprehensively at parking, I'm just you know offering that too, as well.

AN

Can I enter, can I interject something here? This establishes a parking requirement for industrial.

AN

Parks, it doesn't. Maybe I misunderstood what linda was saying, but it doesn't have anything.

AN

To do with self storage, this just establishes correct a parking ratio for an industrial park.

AN

Which doesn't currently exist in the code we're getting ready to develop an industrial park so.

AN

We need to know what our parking ratio is right, so we're proposing- and your view is- this is workable.

A

We believe that that's yeah based on 50 years, we that's our sense that that's a good number yeah.

AE

50 years to jump even further than what tom just said in looking at that they, uh st john, looked at.

AE

The maximum commercial allowance in an industrial park to ensure that there would be enough parking.

AE

I mean, obviously, I think it goes without saying that anybody who's developing one of these parks.

AE

Wants to make sure that their tenants are happy and have enough parking. But that was factored.

AE

In because this industrial park provision allows for a certain retail component and.

AE

So that was taken into account and proposing um that that parking number right now, if you look.

AE

At the parking tabulation chart in uh the code there's no use for business park, so it leaves.

AE

um A question I'm sorry industrial park there's no or business park. That applies to both there's no.

AE

um There's no use on that chart that says: here's your parking ratio. So, if you're a developer, who's.

AE

Trying to submit a plan for one of these parks, you're kind of in a catch-22, because you're.

AE

Trying you, you probably haven't leased space yet right, you're, just starting the development process.

AE

You're trying to anticipate potential tenants and then provide a part parking according to.

AE

Uses that are on the chart, and so that's why this is being proposed to provide some certainty if you.

AE

Look at the what you just did the business slash industrial park, the parking ratio is.

AE

Included right there in that section of the code, so we felt like it was appropriate to have it.

AE

Right in this section of the code that way again, reader ease if somebody's looking at developing.

AE

An industrial park they look right here and they see all of the requirements that they're subject.

AE

To so, that's that's where that came from, and can I'm just going to jump real, quick back to the.

AE

Subdivision because, mr weathers, we uh took your comments from the initial meeting on this and in.

AE

The chart that linda has there is the language that we thought would address your one concern.

AE

About subdivision and tell us if it doesn't, but um basically we clarified with language there.

AE

That any subdivision would still be required to go through the subdivision process, as required.

AE

In chapter 155 of the code, so this section would not exempt you from all of the other requirements.

AE

That anyone else subdividing would have to go through. It just allows for a park to decide that.

AE

They want to subdivide again because there's that acreage limitation and currently it says.

AE

No subdivision, if you're under a certain amount of acreage, so this would allow subdivision. That's not.

AE

No, it's not in no, it's not it's not in the text, but it is in the chart. It's that blue text, blue.

AE

Indicates clarifying change proposanciness right transmittal, so they had not received that as part.

AE

Of their practice, so that's the proposed text that um we thought would clarify that and just make it.

AE

Assure everyone that we're not exempting ourselves from the subdivision requirements.

AE

Of the code we're just allowing four subdivision of these parks if they want to no, I appreciate.

AE

That thank you. Thank you. Going back to the parking that we just talked about.

AE

um And having the table- and things like that, goes back to the london town case that you.

AE

Just heard where they said: okay, here's how we came up with our parking. Well, we kind of.

AE

Took this amount of use in this amount used to be kind of tabulated it. You know this way. This.

AE

Tries to alleviate the need for that, and so yes, when you talk about an industrial park coming.

AE

Through that now would be, I guess, the first one, because the zoning administrator reviewed and.

AE

Said that that would meet the definition of an industrial park, so we do have one.

AE

All right is there more to go through, or did you yeah? No? No for this section. No, we still.

AE

Have the commercial yes correct and not unless anyone has any questions and so do you need a.

AE

Motion to approve these last um texts, or they swept up in what we already approved. So we can.

AE

Do this for the 158 156 is the industrial park um to make make these changes as well.

AE

So if you want to articulate okay um needed uh 58156.

AE

um For the allowance of retail stores,.

AE

Yeah and then okay, that's better, which jim just said um to have have the amendments for 158 156, as proposed in the tux provided forward.

AE

Yes, okay, would somebody like to incorporate that into a motion I'll make that motion? Okay? Is there.

AE

A second second, okay, so we're incorporating by reference the information that was just.

AE

Articulated about 158 156., yes um and um looking forward to the board of county commissioners with.

AE

A favorable recommendation: we have a motion, we have a second. Is there any further discussion.

AE

Are there any members of the public.

AE

No okay, all in favor uh you want opposed or abstaining okay, it's unanimous, okay! Thank you.

AE

And then the next has to do with the c3 district, and that is the business park. Provision.

AE

um And again same as what we just talked about with the industrial park,.

AE

um For the being permitted to subdivide at the option of the developer, with that same provision,.

AE

I'm subject to all applicable requirements of chapter 155 related to the subdivision.

AE

um And that's all I had kelly were there other? I think those were all the changes.

AE

um Yes, we did submit the letter on parking as well. I I know you just mentioned yeah. I wasn't sure.

AE

um If you want to bring that forward, we did not submit that to them, because.

AE

um We can have that discussion now with them. So in keeping with the conversation we just.

AE

Had about the parking ratio for industrial parks, we also thought it would be appropriate.

AE

To have a parking ratio for business parks, um so we mirrored that language that you just saw.

AE

For industrial parks, but with a different ratio, because business parks are much more.

AE

Commercial versus industrial and therefore have a higher parking requirement. Was it 3.5.

AE

I believe it's 3.5 per thousand square feet versus the 2.3 would be our suggestion. There.

AE

I do I was just going to just going to dig it out of here. My paper file.

AE

um It might take me a minute so I'll get the specific number, but that was again.

AE

um And I appreciate linda's explanation of london town because, as you all know, I worked on that one.

AE

Too- and that was quite an analysis of existing tenants, so this is again done to alleviate the.

AE

Uncertainties there provides a developer with some idea of what they're going in for and also.

AE

Hopefully, provide staff with an idea of what is the actual requirement versus going through.

AE

This slightly more complex analysis as well um and and I'll throw this out there too,.

AE

If you're doing an analysis based on tenants, as you can imagine, that can get a little bit.

AE

Finicky, because if you have tenants that change it's kind of like this constant analysis that.

AE

Is required between any developer and the zoning administrator going? Okay, are we still in parking.

AE

Compliance with this tenant and from an economic development standpoint, I would say that that's.

AE

Probably not exactly where the county wants to be and having to go through that kind of analysis on.

AE

A tenant by tenant situation, so I think I would I would submit to you that, providing you know a.

AE

Concrete ratio could eliminate those sorts of concerns going forward. Sorry, let me pull.

AE

This specific, I should have had it right in front of me and like everything else, we can.

AE

Live out of this for a while and adjust as it turns out that this ratio needs to be adjusted.

AE

Yes, right and again as we're as we, as I said, as we move forward, we want to evaluate all.

AE

Parking requirements across the county across all districts, so this would be reevaluated and.

AE

We could have more robust discussion at that time, but this serves the needs of.

AE

Developments under the I-1 industrial park and the c3 business park, which we did not have.

AE

And it is 3.5, I did confirm per thousand square feet. Yes, okay,.

AE

And I apologize, I thought I had it prepared to pull up, but I don't I apologize so and it was.

AE

Similar in shoot, we can deal with it on the fly. I appreciate linda. She said it verbally.

AE

Right is that everything that that is all is there anything else dad. I think that's.

AE

It we covered everything, it's a lot, yes and we appreciate it. I'm appreciate you going through.

AE

This very deliberately with us, so we we need to make a motion on the last part.

AE

Yes, for uh c3 right! Yes, so if you can help articulate what that motion is either jim.

AE

AE

AE

AE

So I'm 58 what yes 158 159 is the business. So the amendment has proposed to chapter 158, 159.

AE

The parking's not on that one jim, because that's the copy of what was in there right.

AE

Along with melissa parking, parking's 3.5 per thousand square feet, along with.

AE

Parking ratio of 3.5 spots per thousand square feet.

AE

And that would be the motion to approve it. For a favorable forwarding to the board of.

AE

County commissioners, so jim just to be clear, we won 58 159 that last provision would be g. Would.

AE

Be the parking requirement? Okay? Well, that would be an amendment proposed to 158. Yes, all right.

AE

So would someone like to incorporate that into a motion? You can incorporate it by reference.

AE

I'll make that motion? Okay, whatever they just said, okay, so we have a motion. Is there a second.

AE

Okay, we have motion seconds the further discussion, all in favor aye. Anyone opposed. I know what.

AE

I'm saying past unanimously, okay and just to clarify this will all be re-typed up posted on.

AE

Our website, under the zoning text, amendments all of the text that you've made suggestions.

AE

Today will be forwarded to the board of county commissioners and posted for the public hearing.

AE

This wall I'll be written out and it'll be before this board of county commission. Yes, so since you.

AE

Were able to get through this today, um we we were, you know, weren't sure the trajectory, so this will.

AE

Move along with the solar on the employment campus that so our our intent is to get this before the.

AE

Board before they leave office, this particular a busy 71.5 days. Yes, we do. Yes, we do so. Thank you.

AE

All for your patience and working with us and going through this in detail, and thank you for.

AE

Preparing the chart, I know mary was helpful because that chart. Thank you, mary yeah, when.

AE

I saw that I said this is a great breakdown. I appreciated that yeah well, thank you all for.

AE

Putting all this together! Thank you. Thank you all right. So that concludes this item. I take it.

AE

We'll move on to item 23, which is general public comment, which I think we've demonstrated there.

AE

Is none say something we'll move on to item 24 which would be in german? Is there a motion that.

AE

We adjourn I'll move forward. Okay, all in favor, aye aye. We are adjourned. Thank you all very much.