Carroll County, MD Carroll County Planning and Zoning Commission, 13 Dec 2022

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From YouTube: Carroll County Planning and Zoning Commission December 13, 2022

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https://www.carrollcountymd.gov/government/boards-commissions/planning-zoning-commission/

A

Good good morning, everyone we will call to order the december 13th planning and.

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Zoning commission hearing and we will begin by establishing a quorum. Please.

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Here, ms kirkner here mr lester you're, mr here mr kane here mr smith, here mr classic.

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Commissioner, gordon is going to be our ex official. It's not.

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Secretary eisenberg here, mr chair, please let the record reflect that six members are.

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Present and we do have a quorum very good. Thank you. Please stand for the pledge of allegiance.

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I pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic.

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For which it stands, one nation, under god, and indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

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And moving on to item four of our agenda is review and approval of.

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The agenda itself do we have any changes to it.

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Going to be happy to entertain a motion that we approve the agenda as presented I'll make the.

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Motion, we approve the agenda. Second, all right, all in favor, aye aye. Anyone opposed you're.

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Good the agenda stands approved as presented item. Five is review and approval of minutes.

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From november 15th and december 7th does anyone have any edits or corrections to those minutes.

E

I have none in a move. We approve the minutes, a second all right motion two and a second.

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To approve the minutes november 15th december 7th, all in favor post.

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Stand approved, I have the november 15th minutes here so I'll sign those as we speak.

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Thank you item six commission member reports. I have nothing to report today. Typically, we would.

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Ask our commissioner to report, but I understand he's not here any other members have anything.

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To report nope, I'm good all right. Thank you. All move on to item seven, which is.

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The administrative report, madam secretary, all right good morning, everyone thank you for being.

F

Important be our new ex-officio to the planning and zoning commission. He was unable to be here.

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Today, but we'll be at our january 17th meeting, which is the next meeting, we are not having our.

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January 4th, our first wednesday of the month meeting, given that we're just coming out of.

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New year's and things like that so giving you all a little break uh as we started off the new year.

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um But we look forward to welcoming him prior to that meeting and also having an.

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Internal meeting with him kind of getting him up to speed about all the work that you all do.

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um So with that extensions and I'm laura matiz, I think she has one extension to update you on.

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We have a very busy agenda today, so we're just going to roll right into it.

G

Good morning, good morning,.

G

It is a site plan entitled quebec corner. This was a contractor equipment, storage yard. It's.

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The third extension for this project- and it's in commissioner district four.

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That's it. Thank you great thank you laura and next abigail rogers with board of zoning appeal cases.

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Morning, good morning, so we just have one on bza case. That's going to be heard on.

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January 3rd, it's metro bobcat, and it's for a vehicle sales lot on 33, west old liberty.

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Street sykesville in commissioner district four and it's three acres in the c2 zone and.

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Previously, I think I might have already gone over this, but there was the hochstad properties case.

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And that was heard on november 30th, it was for a contractor's equipment, storage yard, northeast of.

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Hanover pike up in manchester and it was found consistent all right great. Thank you. Abigail.

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um So with that, that's all I have thank you all so much and I'm going to wish you all a.

F

Happy holiday season and a very happy new year, and that is all I have thank you same to you.

A

We'll move on to item eight, which is um rezoning case number 228 eldersburg investors to llc.

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Good morning, good morning, good morning,.

A

I don't know, are we able to turn the sound system? I don't think so.

F

Everyone can just talk a little louder and into the microphones. Is that more helpful.

A

We'll do what we can thank you.

A

So as um introduced, this is rezoning case 228. This is just an introduction.

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um The applicant sorry here, if you want to introduce yourself.

J

Thank you hannah. If I can I'll stop up here, kelly schaefer miller, 73, east main.

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Street westminster maryland 21157 and I'm here on behalf of eldersburg investors, I.

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Have matt taylor with me as well just here and happy to answer any questions.

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That you might have we understand this is a very brief introduction, but if there are.

J

Any preliminary questions we are here very good. Thank you.

I

So with that, just as I said, this is an introduction.

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um This rezoning is in the eldersburg area in commissioner district five. It involves four.

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Separate parcels that are currently zoned c2, you can see, we are south of maryland 26 and you can.

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See liberty exchange right across the street and locating ourselves the four acre, the four.

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Parcels total 12.47 acres and they are all zoned c2. The request is to rezone all four parcels to c3.

A

One quick question for you: weren't those parcels subject to discussion when we did the uh correct.

I

Yes, so these three parcels to the left not parcel 222. These three were rezoned from our 20.

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000 to c2, and that was adopted in 2021. and the position is that that was a mistake. That.

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They have not submitted an official correction of their petition, so they're still working out.

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Their arguments- okay, thank you, I'm sorry yeah and um I was going to get to it, but this will.

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Be discussed further in january and you'll have your staff report packet by then okay. Thank you.

I

Thank you. So, as you can see, all four parcels are zone c2.

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um They total around 12 acres and you can see all of the different zoning districts in the.

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Area we have our 20 000 conservation. I won more c2 to um on the east side of maryland.

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26 more I-1 across the street with liberty exchange are 40 000 across maryland, 26 as well.

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So the next steps, as I said this, will be up for further discussion at the january.

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17Th planning commission meeting at that point we will be hearing the arguments.

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Presented by the applicant, as well as the staff conclusions, and we will be looking.

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For a favorable or unfavorable recommendation from you all to the county commissioners and we.

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Have no dates scheduled right now with the county commissioners, anything else nope, that's it for me,.

A

Well, um we appreciate council being here and mr taylor being here and I think given.

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That this is an introduction, unless anyone has any particular questions. We're happy to.

A

Wait until january to have the discussion so absolutely. Thank you very much yep. Thank you.

A

We'll move on to item nine, which is rezoning case number 229 hutton street 21 llc.

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This is a discussion.

K

um Good morning for the record clark, schaefer, 73 east main street, on behalf of the applicant, I have.

K

Here with me, john lombardo who's, a principal with uh hutton and mark zimmerman, who was our land use.

K

Consultant engineer good morning, good morning, okay, with ahead and get started, this was introduced to.

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You all at your last wednesday virtual meeting december 7th, um like I said it was just an.

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Introduction and today we are here for discussion and a recommendation to the county commissioners.

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So again, this property is located in the eldersburg area inside commissioner district.

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Five, we are north of maryland, 26th and just east of the georgetown boulevard intersection with.

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Maryland 26., this parcel is approximately 2.6 acres, but the area to be to be rezoned is only.

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1.9 acres, the zoning is split between c2 and r20 000 and the request is to rezone the r 20.

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000 portion to c2, which would make the entire 2.6 acres c2.

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So here is the existing zoning. The property has actually been split.

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Zoned between commercial and residential since 1965., the surrounding area, as you can see, is a.

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Mix of residential and commercial and that zoning has been consistent also since 1965.

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So, as with every rezoning we receive, we send out a transmittal for agency comments. These are the.

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List of agencies we sent the transmittal to. I will note we sent the transmittal to.

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The baltimore baltimore metropolitan council, specifically the reservoir technical group,.

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Because this property does lie inside the liberty reservoir, we receive no comments from any agencies.

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Okay, so getting into the arguments, the applicant is arguing a mistake in the current zoning.

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The current existing c2 zoning line splits the property and goes through an existing.

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Commercial structure: it was a mistake to locate a zoning line and or confirm the.

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Previous zoning line in such a manner the r 20 000 zoning designation on the back portion.

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Of the property was adopted in whole or in part because of the mistaken belief that a.

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Strip of land existed at the back of the property. This strip of land would provide.

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Future access for residential purposes to the back portion of the property.

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This access strip is mistakenly shown as existing in tax maps in official county zoning maps, um but.

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It does, it does not exist. The access strip was consolidated into the northern parcels in 1971.

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The petitioner also alleges the r 20 000 portion of the property, as currently zoned.

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Is virtually unusable, its only access would be via a residential driveway onto maryland.

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26 leading through the commercially zoned and commercially developed portion of the property.

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The existing c2 zone property is less than 180 feet, deep, meaning that it's.

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Not deep enough for development of a reasonable plan, commercial project.

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So that was the petitioner's arguments and these are the staff conclusions.

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Staff believe there was a mistake in the last comprehensive rezoning, applying the r 20.

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000 designation to the rear part of the property due to the information available to staff.

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At the time is the last comprehensive rezoning, the department of planning believed that the.

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0.2 acre strip did exist to the rear of the subject property. This strip was thought to.

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Provide residents of the r-20 000 zone portion of the property if it was to be developed with more.

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Connectivity to the surrounding area, the strip does indeed not exist and was consolidated in.

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1971 to the northern properties, at the time of the last comprehensive rezoning, there was an existing.

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Fuel station and car wash on the c2 portion of the property this car wash and fuel station is still.

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On the property, so if the r 20 000 zone portion of the property was developed, residentially, the.

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Only access would be a driveway onto liberty, road through the commercially developed portion.

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Of the property because of its limited access, the development would contradict planning principles.

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So this is just a zoom in of the access strip that was discussed by the applicant and by staff. This.

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Access this strip is in the green box, located to the rear of the property. This strip does not exist.

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And so the rezoning parcel uh is 100 adjoining the two northern parcels, so um all of the tax and.

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County county zoning maps were showing this strip as existing, though it was consolidated in 1971.

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So that's it for the arguments today. We are here for discussion and recommendation to the county.

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Commissioners, the board of county commissioners dates are as follows: january 12th. We are.

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Introducing and requesting to go to public hearing february, 2nd is the public hearing and then we.

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Have february 9th scheduled for further discussion and decision if they need it, so that's it with for.

I

My presentation, if you wanna, no that's good. Thank you, mr schaefer yeah. Thank you. If I may uh briefly.

K

May I approach I want to show you uh an old plot that you probably can't see from here sure. Yes,.

L

Thank you. Okay, just wait. I wasn't sure.

K

This is an old subdivision plan that shows the strip that doesn't exist.

K

And so that's how that's how the error uh was carried forward on the tax maps.

K

Even after this strip was absorbed into those two major winning residential lots.

K

By deed, so that I just wanted to illustrate by virtue of the old plaid. Thank you yes,.

K

So this is clark schaefer speaking, um this is a classic. If there is such a thing mistake case.

K

um Not only is there a mistake of fact, namely whether or not.

K

This strip existed, but that mistake- and in every case I don't want you to get.

K

The impression every case has to meet this high standard because I handle other cases.

K

But uh in this case that mistake goes directly bears directly on the actual zoning decision.

K

Because it's it's not a stretch, and I think planning supports this, obviously to infer that.

K

The zoning authority kept this r20 because they thought it had access from the rear.

K

If they, if they, the that body, would have known that that that it did not.

K

And what then, would have known as staff points out in its report, that the only access to this.

K

Is through the existing gas station in the front uh uh no planner in their right mind unless there.

K

Were some unusual circumstances would have then said? Well, that's fine! Oh that works we'll just.

K

Zone it residential and the driveway will come through the through the through the gas station.

K

um So we believe this is a clear case and we believe that uh and and in addition.

K

In this case, uh no, I don't know whether it was a scrivener. I call it a scrivener's error or a.

K

Mapping error, no one would have drawn the zoning line through through an ex the end.

K

Of an existing building because the existing zoning line runs through as best we can scale it.

K

Through the at the back end of that existing gas station.

K

The the appropriateness of the c2 zoning uh is almost self-evident. It's it's all up and down that.

K

Road, this gives enough depth to do a uh redevelop. The parcel, frankly, which is what my client intends.

K

To do uh um and to remove the existing gas station uh take the tanks out which is going to be a plus.

K

And and operate a a car wash there, um which obviously would go through a site plan process.

K

And have to meet all the modern environmental standards, all the landscaping, all the setbacks.

K

And everything else as it went through, but uh we respectfully request your recommendation to the.

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County commissioners, in favor of this rezoning, based on the existence of a mistake and the.

K

Appropriateness of the zoning I'll add that I don't know that I need to because I think you.

K

You guys, you all know it, but you know one of the goals of zoning is overall goals is to allow and.

K

Encourage the productive, economically, fruitful and appropriate use of land uh in in an especially in.

K

An infill area like this, uh this will fulfill uh that goal, um because, frankly, otherwise.

K

That rear piece is virtually unusable, um I mean I'm I say virtually I mean somebody might buy.

K

A house back there I don't know and and then but then the question is, would the commercial.

K

With the commercial owner in the front, assuming it's different, would they? How would.

K

That driveway work uh coming off and and coming off liberty road with a resident, but anyway.

K

We think it's a pretty compelling argument and we appreciate your consideration of it.

A

All right, mr schaefer, thank you, um mr almond. Would you mind summarizing the legal standard.

A

For us, just what we have to hold up hold this up against, in terms of what constitutes I mean, it's.

A

It's usually change your mistake, but here it's not changed. It's not a mistake. Right, right, correct.

M

um So, just to give you sort of uh comprehensive overview, as you are all aware,.

M

um The way to sort of rezone that the maryland land use article provides the counties. Is you.

M

Can do comprehensive zoning comprehensive rezoning and then in the meantime, you have.

M

The land use article provides this and case law backs this up. This sort of change, a mistake.

M

um Avenue to do rezoning now the change portion of the change slash mistake is, if there's been.

M

Such a substantial change to the neighborhood that um the areas surrounding the zoning where it wants.

M

To be changed, it just makes sense, because if, for instance, it would be like res, it would be like.

M

In the movie up the guys, like the little house and all of a sudden he's surrounded by giant.

M

Skyscrapers that would be a good sort of change argument uh to make now with mistake. um As mr.

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Schaefer was uh saying and I'll just uh piggyback on what he was saying is mistake, is not so much.

M

The air concerned with the logical validity or merit of the ultimate conclusion, drawing as with.

M

The adequacy and the accuracy of the factual premises that underlie the conclusion drawing.

M

So basically, what information did the zoning body have when they made their decision and if they had.

M

Incomplete information or just wrong information that can constitute a mistake and, as mr schaefer.

M

Said it doesn't need to be a mistake, in fact, as long as there's something that they missed.

M

Or didn't consider the courts and the statute consider that to be a mistake. So in this case.

M

um You have that parcel on the tax map that you know didn't exist, but was shown so that's uh their.

M

Mistake argument, and um so that's sort of what you have to look for is. Is there? Was there something.

M

In the underlying decision making of the zoning body at the time they made that zoning decision.

M

um To find that there was a mistake in the underlying presumption of their decision and if, if.

A

We do find that there's a fact, a factual mistake. Something is inaccurate. Are we then, under the.

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Statute compelled to grant the zoning change or we then are empowered to exercise discretion. You're.

M

Empowered to exercise discretion, um you may there may be a mistaken fact, but um there's that's not.

M

A mandatory automatic, okay there's a mistake. In fact, we need to change it. um That's the planning.

M

Commission still has the discretion on that front, and I appreciate the summary from both of you.

A

um You know we face these change, your mistake uh cases from time to time we don't get a lot of them.

A

um And I think it's useful to be reminded of the of the standard, because if we don't find the.

A

Standards been met, we don't have the discretion to do what we're being asked to do. Mr shaker.

K

um Mr almonds uh summary is totally accurate and I agree with it. I would like to add one thing to it:.

K

The the case law does suggest that there are, there can be a situation where your discretion.

K

Which he properly refers to after you find the mistake now you look at whether the zoning makes.

K

Sense is really what it is and at that point, you're looking at the health safety, welfare and.

K

You know does that zoning mix that you've shown mistake or you've shown change. Now we move to.

K

The next stage, but the court, the cases have said- and I don't know that I'm even that we.

K

Have it here, but we I alluded to it earlier, that you don't have discretion if failing to.

K

Rezone would deprive a property owner of all reasonable use. Now that's a high standard, but.

K

uh The courts have have said that, thank you sure. So I have just a couple questions and.

A

Then obviously I'll turn it over to everybody else, the um just for clarification where this strip of.

A

Land was shown on the tax map. Thank you. Is there any easement or any other right-of-way? That's.

A

Reflected in the land records that backs up that strip of land, that's shown on the tax map, we have.

K

Not done a full title search, but we do not believe there is um uh and and well let's put it this way.

K

We have looked at the deeds whereby that strip was consolidated into the lots. There's none.

K

In there and that's where it would sort of have to be, I think, in order for those people.

K

Because if it existed, whoever developed that r20 uh land as residential would have.

K

To go to those lot owners and say hey by the way, I'm putting a little road through.

K

The back of your property that you thought you acquired as an add-on piece, so we don't think.

K

I can't say for sure examine, but I don't know I don't think there's any easement.

A

Through there, okay and then the other question I have is even with this mistake,.

A

Which, to my mind, I'm only one voice but uh is pretty obvious. It's a factual mistake.

A

um How does that auger in favor of c2, as opposed to r 20 000, I mean why doesn't it just this just.

A

Equally fall into, it ought to stay r20 000, there's a lot of our twenty thousand around it.

K

Because the only logical reason for the r20 is that it had back access.

K

Not through liberty, road through a through an existing commercial gas station, so the planners.

K

That considered that, I think it's a logical inference to say they said.

K

R20 works for here because of the you said: it's a bunch of r20 around there.

K

uh Well, not if it doesn't have that that back access through residential land.

K

um So uh you know it's it's frankly, it's a little bit of a quirk. I think it's a quirk might be a.

K

Good quirk in your zoning ordinance because it's it's it's somewhat unusual for a zoning ordinance.

K

To permit even a draw a residential driveway to come to a commercial 's piece, but your ordinance.

K

Says accessory structures can be on and it and it may be legal to put a driveway up there, but being.

K

Legal uh does not mean to make sense, and no, and as I think that was what hannah was referring to.

K

In the second paragraph or the last sentence of the second paragraph of of their recommendation,.

K

Where they said because of its limit access, the development would contradict planning principles.

K

uh Meaning that uh meaning that nobody would have intentionally.

K

um Zone that r20 thinking that it was going to have to access off of liberty.

K

Road through a commercial site, thank you. um Those are all the questions I have right now.

A

I don't have any other questions or comments, so the strip can we go back to the map yeah.

N

When we're talking about the strip go back to that one, okay, yeah, that's the strip on the north.

N

Side of the property that long rectangle that doesn't exist, that's what we're saying correct!.

I

It's been since updated, since we did the deed research, but at the time it is shown.

I

It was shown and there's no access, so the north I'll call it the northeast portion of the property.

N

Where that strip is shown but doesn't exist, there's no capability of a flag.

N

The lack of better description, your flag, lots with shared driveway to get to the back of this.

N

Property for residential purpose, I would say no because it doesn't exist. It's a part of the.

I

Properties to the north, so you would be taking somebody's property essentially for access.

E

Would say that you know in terms of the.

E

It makes sense to me that you know if all these facts and circumstances are, as they are.

E

I would lean towards you know moving this towards commercial two. Having said that, we do have those.

E

R20 homes that are adjacent- and I think they've assumed that that would be if it were developed.

E

It would be residential too, I would want to understand, even though it doesn't exist. I would.

E

Want to understand the disposition of and the what do you call it? The the title lineage of that of.

E

That of that strip of land, because if it, if at some point, mr schaefer, it was a part of that.

E

Piece of property- that's labeled, 224! I guess so! That's my eyesight! Yes p224! If it at one point.

E

In the past, if it was part of that, I do think that changes the facts and circumstances of this.

E

A little bit because somebody disposed of that strip, you know voluntarily and basically made.

E

This property landlocked to some degree um and and limited their access through that commercial.

E

Property, they did so willingly and I think that fact might change my opinion a bit. I I don't mean.

E

To uh I, I'm not the only one who sees it that way that the the disposition of that strip makes it.

O

Makes a bit of a difference? Can I just clarify that that whoever did that, and they did somebody.

K

Did do that? Okay, but it wasn't the owner of this property well, but they purchased that property.

E

Knowing that, then you mean the front property. Yes, sir, did they purchase this property, knowing that.

E

They didn't, they did not have access back access. I have no idea what they thought. It's been, whoever.

K

Owns it now is, I think, owned it for a long time. I doubt if they did, um but I don't know I don't.

K

Know: okay, mr lester, if I may um the issue with mistake and what you have to look for under the.

M

Legal standard is the underlying assumption of the zoning body that made the mistake.

M

So it's not what this person may have done with that strip. It's what did the underlying? What did.

M

The zoning body do and what underlying information did they have did they miss and what was their.

M

Decision based off of that's the legal standard is the zoning body's decision, not what a property.

M

Owner may or may not have done, which obviously feeds into the zoning authority's decision. But.

M

It's what they knew and the underlying assumptions they had at the time when they made the decision.

M

Okay- and I do have title work- uh I don't have full title. Yes, that's a term of art in our in.

K

Our business, that means you go back 60 years and you know, but we did look at those. These are the.

K

Two deeds of the people that now are the deed chains of the people that now own that strip.

K

They're the they're, the lot owners that join it and it looks to me like it goes back. One goes.

K

Back to 81, okay and the other one goes back to 71.. So there's this mistakes been a long time coming.

N

That's I was getting to that.

N

Somebody's paying a tax on it, it's recorded as tax. What we're saying is that line.

N

Is drawn incorrectly correct and weren't we, the zoning body, yes and the commissioners.

A

What's that the commissioners, ultimately right, so we made recommendations, but we were looking.

A

At a tax map that showed this mistake correct, but for this mistake mr schaefer and his clients.

A

Wouldn't be here because he's basing his whole argument, as I understand it on this.

A

Mistake of the strip of land show and on the tax map. That's an error and the fact that the.

K

Line runs through the back of the building. Now you know that that has to be a mistake.

P

Now, that's not quite as strong annoying to me because your answer might be well then, let's.

K

Move it back 10 feet or 20 feet. You know, let's fix that, I mean. Obviously you would fix that.

K

Or the county would fix that you know you don't want a zoning line running through the middle.

K

Of a commercial structure but but that's still a mistake, argument: okay, all right um are there.

A

Any members of the public that would like to comment on uh this rezoning case number 229.

A

All right hearing, none are there any any other questions or.

A

My view is that I think the standards been met.

A

Excuse me, I I just I think, as we have these, I try to make sure that everyone involved.

A

Understands and the public and understands that we don't make these change or mistake.

A

Findings casually, um you know we put a lot of time into comprehensive rezone and we put a lot.

A

Of effort into that, a lot of county resources were consumed. We heard from a lot of people, and so when.

A

These come up we like to make sure we vet them carefully. Having said all that, my view is that.

A

um That you have met the standard that there was a mistake and that, under the circumstances of this.

A

Particular piece of property: it seems to make sense that it all ought to be c2. I'm just one.

A

Person but anyway, I'm just sharing my thoughts on that. I totally agree. Excuse me and move that we.

Q

Recommend to the commissioners to make the change to c2. Is there a second I'll? Second, that all right.

A

So we have a motion, we have a second. Is there any further discussion all right? Do we need a.

A

Can we do a voice vote or we need a roll call? What is your preference, I think maybe I'll do.

F

A real call: that's okay with you, um mr hoff. Yes, ms kirkner, yes, mr lester, yes, mr kane, yes, mr smith, yes.

F

Please let the record reflect that fiverr and favor, and the motion carries to afford this.

F

With a favorable recommendation to the board of county commissioners, all right, thank you.

A

Very much, thank you all very much. Thank you. I appreciate your presentation. Thank you.

A

We'll move on to item 10, which is the transportation master plan discussion.

R

Good morning, good morning,.

R

Oh, the crazy mouse. Okay, I think it's pretty good. Today it is better yeah matching and mouse chat.

F

Okay- okay, I am here without claire stewart today.

R

um To cover with you, the last of the six sub-area corridors that we've been talking about over the.

R

Past several months, where the transportation master plan um this was sent to you earlier for.

R

Your review and in the interest of time I'll go I'll, try to go fairly quickly through it.

R

um This particular court or westminster, even though it has been identified as a pretty big area.

R

The focus really was by the consultant only on the portion of maryland 140. That is considered the.

R

Biggest problem, so, even though you'll see a large sub-area, it's it's a very um concentrated analysis.

R

So, um just briefly I'll go section by section, this format should look familiar to you by now.

R

It's what we've used or what he they used and we will continue to use for each of the six sub areas.

R

um Just jumping forward a little bit, we will bring all six back to you in january with any.

R

Answers to questions that you've had on them and packaged more so you'll see that how this.

R

Chapter would look, then the next thing we're going to do because it has been brought up and.

R

We agree: these are very minor improvements and short-term improvements. Our next chapter will.

R

Be the plan major streets which are the long-term improvements, the ultimate improvement of the road.

R

Network and just remind me, these are for areas outside of the municipalities that have their.

A

Own planning and zoning commissions or this so some of some of this is inside of westminster,.

R

The way westminster's boundaries are some of it is, and we have worked with the uh not really.

R

Worked with them, but we have met with westminster several times. Regarding this, as a matter of fact,.

R

Our consultant had a third recommendation for operational improvements that their staff did.

R

Disagree with that, we took out of this report that you haven't seen. It just was something that they.

R

Didn't agree with, I spoke with their planning director last week and he wants to take it to.

R

Their planning commission and see if they have any additional comments. So when we come back to you in.

R

January or february whichever it is, we can share those with you and he said they may be sending you.

R

Some correspondence, but again part of the problem is it has to be with the understanding that these.

R

Are not considered ultimate improvements. These are considered short-term operational things that will.

R

Help thank you um so just section by section regarding the road network. Obviously you're.

R

All familiar with westminster, it's at the heart of the county, the confluence of maryland, 27 31,.

R

32 97 in maryland, 140.. These are all classified as arterials, leading to all areas of the county.

R

um Again, it provides access to mount airy manchester hampstead, new windsor.

R

Eldersburg and sykesville, and also howard, montgomery counties and pennsylvania.

R

Regarding land use and demographics, it's important to note that the westminster sub-area is expected.

R

To experience nearly half of all county-wide growth over the next 20 years, with the growth.

R

Forecasted at the confluence of the five major state roads that we just that I just mentioned.

R

Regarding commuter, these are several recently completed projects in the area.

R

um Regarding commuter flows- and I think claire probably mentioned this to you last time- we are.

R

Working on making these maps more legible for the final product, I realize they're hard to read, but.

R

They are extremely informational, so we definitely want to keep them in in the report um so about.

R

25 of westminster residents, work in westminster and about 26 percent of westminster workers are.

R

Westminster residents, otherwise, residents work throughout the baltimore and washington regions.

R

With 14 working in other carroll, county sub areas and 19 working in baltimore county there's a.

R

Sizable inbound worker flow to westminster from pennsylvania and baltimore county um regarding.

R

Local goals and policies westminster is by far the largest and busiest locale in carroll county.

R

As the county seat and owing to its location at the intersection of all those arterials.

R

um From the 1962 master plan of road improvements to the early 2000s and arterial bypass, envisioned.

R

To be an expressway of westminster was the key transportation goal since 2001 the master plan.

R

Of roadways has not included this bypass in its place or a series of recommendations developed.

R

For a corridor improvement project from maryland, 140 from market street to sullivan road, that would.

R

Include multiple continuous flow intersections and a single point: urban interchange at malcolm.

R

Drive and maryland 140., however, these proposals have a combined estimated cost of 271 million.

R

Dollars and have not progressed any further in either concept or detailed design with the state.

R

um Another strategy that's been considered is to strengthen, strengthen the local grid.

R

Network to provide alternative means of access to residential commercial and industrial areas.

R

And we'll be going over some of those, those are the plan, major streets.

R

um [music] And we'll go in, I think in the next chapter into some of the detail of that. However,.

R

Those also have a cost to them, so, regarding existing traffic conditions, maryland 140 between.

R

Market street and sullivan road must serve all eastbound and westbound maryland 140 traffic.

R

um In this one congested corridor from east to west, the intersections of maryland 140 with market.

R

Street malcolm drive, center street and angler road all operate at level of service d or, worse.

R

During at least one peak hour, and obviously it's obvious which peak hour, it would be depending if.

R

People are leaving the county or coming back. um Travel speeds along 140 through westminster, are.

R

Variable but some segments experience typical, am peak speeds of 30 to 34 miles per hour and.

R

Pm peak hours of 25 to 29 miles per hour and slower speeds are typical through the historic.

R

Downtown where travel on main street can drop below 15 miles per hour during the pm peak hour.

R

um 20 40 traffic conditions with no improvements with anticipated growth and no improvements, traffic.

R

Congestion will continue to degrade in westminster by 2045 all the study intersections along maryland.

R

140 will operate at level of service e or worse during at least one peak hour.

R

Regarding planning approaches, maryland 140 through westminster is not only the most congested quarter.

R

But also the most active corridor, therefore, an effective approach to mitigating congestion.

R

Must consider not only how much it would reduce travel times and intersection delay for those.

R

Traveling through the city, but how improvements could help motorists access local businesses so.

R

That made this analysis um a little tricky. It was explained to us by the consultant.

R

The most conventional way to address a congested corridor is to add capacity. This was the approach.

R

Taken in the mid-2000s planning studies, with all the recommendations that totaled up to 271.

R

Million dollars these would lead to significant travel time savings, but at a very high cost.

R

As an alternative to adding capacity along a roadway, you could reduce demand, but the off-site.

R

Improvements needed to reduce corridor demand come with their own property and environmental impacts.

R

In the case of westminster, this approach has been thoroughly explored in the past, with expense.

R

Extensive study of the bypass, so that approach is also not considered feasible at this time.

R

So an approach that better matches existing roadway space with local traffic demand can help.

R

Roadways and intersections operate as efficiently as possible. It avoids the environmental and.

R

Property impacts of major construction projects, but often reduced in intersection delays.

R

Therefore, the consultant and what you see before you is an analysis that tested.

R

A scenario using an alternative intersection, design known as quadrant roadways that limited.

R

Left turns off maryland 140 at malcolm drive and cranberry road ralph street.

R

So the recommended approach that you see here, in contrast to major intersection and interchange.

R

Improvements at this time, oracle bypass these improvements promise to achieve moderately high.

R

Benefit for very low cost, it recommends pursuing this quadrants approach.

R

um Although certain intersections will still operate below acceptable levels of service.

R

um It will help the through traffic through on 140.

R

And I- and I guess I if you want me to I- could go over these, but basically it's just limiting.

R

During different peak hours, the left turns and a gorsuch road um I believe at gorsuch road.

R

Not having the light anymore and having write in right out.

R

So basically, the goal is just to keep traffic flowing through 140.

R

And these are what we've been calling our mppis these two right here again, we met with.

R

Westminster there was a third that they did not recommend and that we agreed with them.

R

So instituting these left turn prohibitions and converting gorsuch to right in right.

R

Out and allocating the space reclaimed from left turn lanes to new through lanes would.

R

Maintain today's congestion levels for the approaches and major side streets and some.

R

Of them actually would become worse, but it's still an improvement over doing nothing which.

R

At this point, in the ct in the state, ctp is where we are so this is what is recommended.

R

They'd be low in cost. They'd require minimal construction to adjust the roadway median and.

R

Reconfigure the turn lanes as through lanes and they would not have any environmental impacts.

R

I'm gonna go into the details on what the different levels of service would become and, as you can see, there's there's still problems, but.

R

Again being that so much of the growth is anticipated to occur in westminster,.

R

The no build is worse than what you see here, or the no improvement.

R

um I know that was kind of a overhead view. Did you have any specific questions.

A

So uh thank you for the over sort of the high level view, because we have had the opportunity to.

A

Review this in more detail, um so I guess where I end up, is that the status quo is bad, um something.

A

Has to be done, nothing big is going to be done. um So these are the small things that can be.

A

Done this is where you get the most juice for the least squeeze seems to be no reason not to do that.

A

Like the other chapters we've looked at, there are variables that are sort of beyond our control.

A

Too I mean we've talked about before how every morning it looks like they evacuate, pennsylvania.

A

um Whether there are other opportunities within the state of pennsylvania, where folks decide.

A

That they would rather be employed in southern pennsylvania or central pennsylvania and they.

A

Stop commuting down here would obviously affect us, but we don't necessarily know that and it's.

A

Not something that can necessarily be taken into account. It has not been predicted that that would.

R

Happen- and I noticed the the um the flows- I might have missed it, but I think was there.

A

A data point that talked about folks that they don't commute to westminster, but they just drive.

A

Through it on their way to from pennsylvania through westminster to other places, absolutely.

R

And that's, I think, one of the um important things to realize about this approach. It's it's.

R

Keeping it moving um because they are, I think I don't remember the exact percentages, but a lot of.

R

The traffic is just going to baltimore, county and beyond and using us. This is similar to what we saw.

R

With the manchester um hampstead corridor right, they're, just using us as they're through streets,.

A

Right right and things that may happen, north of us can affect that positively or negatively for.

A

Us, but we don't necessarily- and lately it's been negatively the residential developments.

R

That we see coming and we are sent, but we can't really impact them. We can comment. We we're aware.

R

Of them, but we can't impact them because it's a different state, that's what we've been seeing. We.

R

Haven't seen anything to the positive is coming right out of pennsylvania for us, so big projects.

A

Long-Term projects, those remain sort of off the off the radar at the moment at the moment, and.

R

For the purposes of this chapter, but we will be talking about those in detail- and I mean just.

R

There's there's small progress being made, there's going to be a study of 97, that's.

R

The first step 97 between westminster and the improvements that were made by the airport so.

R

um Those are really huge projects that we take baby steps on. So that's. Why that's why, when we.

R

Worked with the consultant, this was our approach, for this is that we can always have this long-term.

R

Plan and it's great to have, but when we don't see anything really happening, it's good to have.

R

These in our back pocket- or you know, as as considerations for how to make improvements.

R

And I my last comment really is down in montgomery county silver, spring area and other things.

A

I know they were wrestling with some of these things and they would make some of these.

A

Left turn lanes through lanes for certain times um of the day can be terrifying because you go.

A

Through and all of a sudden sign changes- and you thought you were in a left- turn lane and it's a through lane and here comes some traffic, and I don't know that we want to. You know.

A

Imitate that sort of sort of thing- and I don't think that's what's being proposed here- I think.

R

They're talking about just permanently limiting the left, turns and just opening up. What's now.

R

The turn lane two more through traffic, but I agree with you: that's just confusing. It is yeah.

A

um Any other comments or questions. No, I think the changes are, for the most part, good.

Q

um I'm a big proponent for getting off the main roads when it looks like it's crazy. So I probably.

Q

Use a lot of that already, so I think it's just a matter of getting used to different travel.

A

Just some background, for me, the the consultant is, is the consultant in the state or is it an.

N

Independent consultant, no, we had an independent consultant that we worked with bmc the baltimore.

R

Metropolitan council was the project manager on that, um and that was two years ago. We did that in.

R

2020 with them, but um the data is still what the data there. I think some people see a two-year-old.

R

Study and think a lot has changed, a lot hasn't changed, yeah and that that was my next question.

N

That the uh the study does it take it take into account. I mean pandemic no traffic post-pandemic.

N

Fact that kind of, if you want to call normal sitting in traffic normal, um do they forecast.

N

um Less retail space being used remote work, let you know government office space. You know.

N

Not fully occupied which reduces traffic, do they take that into account so, michael when.

F

This was done. It was that this, the data is pre-pandemic numbers because it was.

F

Done in 2020, so much of the data behind this was pre-pandemic. What we're seeing for post pandemic.

F

Is kind of almost going back to normal, but maybe elongated peak hours, meaning you know where you.

F

Had people traveling monday through friday, six to eight a.m and then you know four to six pm.

F

Tends to be now strung out a little longer because people aren't maybe commuting every day or they.

F

Have more flexibility in their schedule and there tends to be now more um afternoon. Traffic.

F

As people run errands because they have that convenience of working at home, we didn't obviously.

F

We were in the pandemic at the time, but we did not look to forecast because who knew what was going.

F

To happen, those changes of what would happen post pandemic, but this is what we're finding out now.

F

um Again, kind of going back to that 140 scenario that was in the state consolidated transportation.

F

Plan still is zero funding. They spend over a million and a half dollars doing a design. I.

F

Think almost a 30 percent on this stretch right outside um center street here and um that at the.

F

Time was 250 or 60 million, for the improvements now would probably be closer to 500 million or.

F

More because they're going to do a grade, separated, interchange and eliminate the traffic lights.

F

um But that's a really big lift and a lot of money for again that cost benefit of reduction.

A

And procedurally, we'll ultimately get this all put together and then we make a recommendation to send.

A

It on to the commissioners for their approval. Is that the way correct, but this is just one chapter.

R

This is chapter five, then chapter six will be what linda just discussed the ultimate improvements.

R

Everything in the um we're, including everything in the state's highway, needs inventory, which are.

R

Those major giant projects, as well as all of our planned major streets and planned neighborhood.

R

Connections so there's sort of a a graduated look at all this short term to long-term low-cost to.

R

Very very high cost, but yes you'll be seeing it all at once. I know it's kind of confusing.

R

That we keep bringing you different sections. No, it's fine! It's better to have in small bites, yeah.

A

Any other questions or comes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

A

All right, the next item on our agenda is a recess. Why don't we stand in recess for 10.

A

Minutes and we'll come back in about 10 minutes after 10., so thank you. Thank you.

A

A

Shoot I left over. Thank you we'll move on to the next item of our agenda, which is item 12.

A

This is a concept site plan case number s 190022, it's the lens stoller second amended.

S

Good morning, good morning, good morning, good morning, members of the commission.

L

Jay brooks leahy delaney, leahy, curtis and brophy appearing on behalf of lynn, stoller.

L

With me is tony myers from kci the engineer hello good morning welcome good morning.

S

Perfect introduction, so hopefully you get used to seeing my face this morning. I will be presenting.

S

All of the projects on the agenda, and so with there being four site plans for concept review.

S

I want to kind of go over again for any new commission members, really what the purview is.

S

For the planning commission, what you guys should be thinking about looking at while I present all.

S

Of these projects here and so to do that, I'm really just going to read what is currently in.

S

Our code now so within chapter 155, it states, site development plans and improving site development.

S

Plans, the planning commission shall have the authority to approve the location and design of.

S

All site improvements limit the number and approve the location and design of entrances and exits.

S

Require a plan show how signs are to be located and designed and may approve, reject or modify the.

S

Signed plan to promote an attractive and pleasing appearance require a plan which shows the location.

S

Design and effect of any outside lights to be used on the property and the effect of any inside.

S

Lights to be used if their use would affect adjacent, neighboring or contiguous properties.

S

Require that a binding agreement and surety be provided to the county to ensure completion of.

S

The site development plan ensure consistency with the master plan and this chapter.

S

Require a traffic impact study be performed by the owner in accordance with the criteria established.

S

By the department of public works, or is its successor agency, require certification of adequacy.

S

Of public facilities by the agencies having jurisdiction over public facilities and the county.

S

And that's essentially it so really as I go through all of these.

S

um I just want you to keep in mind of what the planning commission can impose changes to what.

S

They may see fit for the site itself. Anything of that nature. So with that I will start the.

S

First, one on the agenda, so david becraft bureau of development review, as mentioned.

S

The first project on the agenda is for len stoller. Second amended file, number s-19-0022.

S

You've already got acquainted with, who is here representing for the project and what.

S

This project is proposing is a roughly 10 000 square foot addition to the existing.

S

Building expanding the parking area and adding an automated detached car wash.

S

This project is before the planning zoning commission as a concept plan, so there is.

S

No action required, however, with all site development plans. The planning commission.

S

May consider delegating approval of the final state plan to the planning commission, chair.

S

So, for those who are not familiar we're the lens stoller is this: is the car dealership.

S

That has dodge chrysler and jeep out on 140. the address, for that is one zero zero one baltimore.

S

Boulevard and it is shown as being the site here- uh this is maryland route 140, which is baltimore.

S

Boulevard, this is old, westminster pike behind it, and over here is where you'll see malcolm drive.

S

So the property itself is roughly six and a quarter acres and currently consists.

S

Of a car dealership, the property lies and the former business general zoning.

S

District and has established access onto baltimore boulevard so because.

S

This project was presented prior to the code changes of december 23 2019.. We are.

S

Still processing it as if it was still within that former business general zoning district.

S

The adjoining properties to the north across baltimore boulevard are either zone c2 or.

S

Commercial, medium and house, a bank which is this one here or it is within the municipal limits.

S

Of a city westminster and will house a future car dealership, which is this property over here.

S

Properties to the south are currently zoned r20 and hosts residential dwellings properties to the.

S

West is zoned light industrial and host a rental business, and a joining property to the east is.

S

Either commercial heavy of c3 or r40 000, so this property is c3 and houses a medical office. This.

S

Property below it is our 40 000 and is used for residential purposes. All adjoining properties are.

S

Located within the westminster priority funding area, as well as the westminster growth area,.

S

So, as you can see, the existing 15 392 square foot dealership building.

S

Is located on the kind of the top of the property here? Next to it, you can see the.

S

Parking area for show cars for customer parking, as well as the employee parking.

S

Behind the property, there is a storm water management facility shown here as well as.

S

A wooded area shown over here there is a freestanding sign which fronts onto baltimore.

S

Boulevard to promote the business, there are no streams or fema 100 year, floodplain designations.

S

On site, however, as you can see, there is a stream right on the opposite side of that property line.

S

Yeah, so uh what we are here for is that the owner, slash developer, is proposing.

S

To construct a 10, 575 square foot addition to the existing building, the addition is shown as.

S

Being on the east, sorry, the west side of the existing building also proposed is a detached.

S

Automated car wash, which will be behind the existing building and then additional parking.

S

Areas which you can see which this hatching pattern will be behind the existing parking area.

S

The addition is proposed on the west side of the building, as stated and will house a nine.

S

Additional lifts and the service area a new service entrance and expand on the showroom.

S

And it should be noted that the car wash shown on the rear of the building here.

S

Is not to be used by the public and will only be for the customers of the dealership.

S

So the concept site plan was initially submitted august, 7 2019 and was subject.

S

To citizen involvement at the september 23 2019 technical review committee meeting, there were no.

S

Citizens and attendance at that meeting, however, after the meeting an email was provided from the.

S

Neighboring property and that had concerns of offloading of their inventory on 140.

S

So per carroll county code- and I'm just going to read this verbatim from the code here- is.

S

That in all districts uses that involve deliveries, shipments or removal of goods, materials supplies.

S

Or waste by truck shall provide adequate off-street loading and unloading facilities.

S

Once this was raised to the developer, they have since shown this area here as being an.

S

Offloading zone for their use with that that does meet the code requirement as outlined.

S

Also noted in the code is the minimum number of spaces required for a vehicle sales lot.

S

So it is two for every one thousand square feet of floor area, excluding service bays.

S

Plus two for each service pay customer parking shall be identified on the site.

S

So the property is proposing 286 parking spaces total with 115 being code required, and this is.

S

Broken down into four separate categories: you'll have customer parking, employee parking service.

S

Parking and display parking so of the 286 parking spaces on site both existing and proposed 171.

S

Are to be utilized for display purposes only so still falls within the requirements of our code.

S

This plan is exempt from the code requirements on floodplain management, forest conservation and soil.

S

Conservation have granted approval of the consent plan. Landscape requirements will be addressed as.

S

Part of the final site plan review approval was granted by the bureau of utilities and carroll.

S

County health department, bureau of engineering review and the state highway administration.

S

Have granted approval of the plan with existing access onto baltimore boulevard site compliance.

S

Has stated that the state plan complies with the requirements of maryland accessibility code, the.

S

Bureau, resource management granted concept, storm water management approval, the site will utilize.

S

Existing stormwater management facility on-site, as well as new microbiore retention facilities.

S

So you can see there is going to be a new facility here that will feed into this existing larger.

S

Stormwater management facility and finally, the slight plan, the final site plan will be tested.

S

And reviewed for adequacy of public facilities in accordance with chapter 155.. So before we move on.

S

I do want to show some of the elevation drawings of what's being proposed, so this is going to be.

S

The addition onto the existing building, so this is looking if you're standing in the parking lot.

S

Looking at the side of the building, this is the existing building, and this is the proposed edition.

S

If you're, looking at the rear of the property, so you're standing behind the building, this is the.

S

Existing building this is the proposed edition and then, if you're, standing on 140 looking at the site,.

S

Itself, this is the existing building, and this is the proposed edition. If we move on to the car wash.

S

This is the generally how it will look from all sides and then finally, um so just some.

S

Pictures of the site itself, so this is these four pictures are where the proposed parking will be.

S

I'm sorry these three pictures here are where the proposed parking area will be. This picture.

S

Down here on, the bottom left is where the proposed of car wash will be located roughly.

S

This is a picture of the existing stormwater management facility. These are some pictures.

S

Of the existing building itself, so this is from the front this one is from the rear.

S

And this one also from the front and finally, these are pictures of the existing access onto the state.

S

Highway road maryland route 140., I don't believe, there's any changes proposed to this entrance.

S

And so with that I'll be happy to answer any questions as well as representatives.

S

From the project, all right dave. Thank you, mr lucky. We're just here to answer questions.

A

Well, good, we appreciate that. um Well I'll start with my questions. um First of all, I think the.

A

Building looks nice um and uh the biggest concern I have is the one that the neighbor raised, which.

A

Is uh dr frazier, it looks like to me that the area that's now designated that david.

A

Just showed us for off street parking is really unchanged, but if I'm wrong obviously correct me.

A

Is is there anything that's changing about where the you're designating the off street um unloading.

T

um No there we just are going to designate that area and they're going to have to start.

T

Using that error utilizing that area, so I appreciate that my concern is that that area.

A

Has always been available, and yet it's always not been used, at least according to the neighbor.

A

Do you have any information to suggest they have been using it and that what the neighbor's saying.

A

Is not accurate or it's accurate, but only partly accurate or what's your view on that.

T

I haven't looked into it okay, he says he hadn't looked into it, but we're obviously we're proposing.

L

This to solve that problem, so um I mean we can talk, I'm not sure whether they've been.

L

Whether the lens stoller uh people have been using it recently or not, we can check into that.

L

And get back, but certainly what we're proposing is that's what we're going to be doing to solve.

L

That off the loading problem, yeah no- and I tell you I get that looking at the property, though.

A

How easily accessible is it? For I mean these are tractor trailers. I assume that are coming.

A

In carrying these cars, um you know looking at the overhead picture that we have, it doesn't.

A

Look like it's the easiest um place to get to they've got to come in off the highway.

A

And then they've got they turn off the highway. They've got to turn. One they've got to turn twice.

A

To get to where this unloading is, is that is that feasible, really for a tractor trailer to do that.

A

Is there enough space for them to do that.

T

um We can definitely there are some changes that are going to be made down on that. I.

T

Guess that that end of the site, with the dumpster location and stuff we will, we may have to look at.

T

Locations for the load it may change, but regardless we're going to provide a loading.

T

Unloading that will work, but by the time it's completed again. This was just concept conceptually.

T

We believe that that would work once we get into this final design. We will make sure that it will.

T

Work yeah, the um look from our standpoint. It's a safety issue having having a truck parked out.

A

On the highway, I understand why the driver would want to do that. It's convenient and.

A

um But the concerns that dr frazier raises, I very much agree with it. Does it it interferes with.

A

Sight lines it traffic suddenly having to stop on the highway and make these turns in when the.

A

Truck is there it takes a while to unload, so these these safety concerns exist for for quite a while.

A

um And the unloading area that that you've designated, like I say, I'm concerned because.

A

That's always been available, and yet it seems to have not been used and it looks like you may have.

A

To change some of the parking that's around the building to make space for the tractor trailer.

A

To come in and make those make those turns, so you know you may have some cascading issues.

A

That happen, not that you can't deal with it, but right, certainly for us to sign off on a final.

A

Site plan, at least for me, to sign off on the side of final site plan. I'd want to make sure.

A

All of those things have been dealt with in a practical way. You know it's one thing for us.

A

To sit here and draw pictures, but in the real world, when a guy's coming in or gal to bring.

A

A tractor trailer in and deliver cars, it's got to be something that they can do and that works.

A

For them it can be done safely and maneuvering through the facility. I also don't know once they.

A

Drop off the car, how do they get turned around to get back out of there? I'm not.

A

You know they would have to loop yeah they're, going to have to loop around the building yeah.

A

But we're going to be adding to this side well, this will be changing too okay. So anyway, I just.

A

Want to see how how they're going to move through I've got the car wash back there and how they're.

A

um And if it's difficult, it's less likely to be used in the real world has been my experience.

D

I would say, I'm sure the subcontractors that are driving the trucks to deliver the cars and that's.

D

Part of the problem, but I guess we'll you know, but I I do agree- that the access is kind of limited.

D

Because you know if they come in the middle of the day and there's customers there and.

D

Cars parked everywhere just need to make sure you have enough room to be able to traverse.

D

Around the building to unload- and you know it's going to- should really fall back on a.

D

Dealership to make sure that you know they don't offroad out on the road I've seen it.

D

At the other dealerships, they're going through town before the same thing happening so but yeah.

A

Well, this is our opportunity to affect that and from a safety standpoint in a positive way, so.

A

I hope you're hearing our message that we take it seriously and I I hear from you you do too.

A

um So for the final site plan, this is just just so you know this is something I'll be I'll, be looking.

A

At I think many of us will be looking at very carefully. Has this been addressed? I I think that.

Q

um We want to see it back, yep yeah and I guess the other question I would have is that the existing.

D

Stormwater pond is going to be able to handle the additional flow. It's not getting expanded.

D

Besides the micro retention area up above so, ultimately, the existing facility in the rear.

S

Had already been expanded so part of the history and the report, I didn't feel the need to read it.

S

um But across the road for that future facility, a lot of that is going to be feeding into this.

S

Facility on this site, and so they had to expand it for that purposes and before anything gets final.

S

Approval from stormwater management- that's going to be one of the items they look at to make sure.

S

That they're not overrunning this newly expanded facility. Okay, the expansion hasn't been completed.

T

As far as his picture, that's the expansion is shown on that on that that's proposed grading, okay,.

A

Any other questions.

A

Okay, do you have any questions for us in light of our comments, because we we want to make the.

A

Process go forward as easily as possible. Just so there's no confusion. I don't think so. We.

L

Understand that we need to handle the loading uh off off street loading in an appropriate way.

L

That works and we'll we'll do that. If we have to lose a few parking spots and we'll cut our.

L

Display from 171 to 165 or whatever we have to do, we can make it work. I think the other option.

N

Too, is you know entrance into the lot off of 140. on the photos, wasn't clear how wide that was for.

N

A tractor trailer to be able to get in and out of there that might be an option for you as well.

N

All right and if the commission's okay I'd rather have this come back. Please yeah! That's fine!.

D

Absolutely very good, very good. Thank you. We look forward. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

A

Thank you, foreign. Are there any members of the public hey books before you leave, I forgot to ask: are there any.

A

Members in the public that want to comment on this project, the lens stolen project.

A

Okay, thank you, yeah. Just all right, we'll move on to item 13.

A

Which is concept site plan case number s 20-0030. This is eotc bachmann valley.

U

Good morning, good morning, good morning, um charles o fisher jr of walsh and fisher in.

U

Westminster- and uh I am here on behalf of the applicant- I am the only person here on behalf.

U

Of the applicant, I learned this morning that the engineers who have worked on this are tied.

U

Up and unable to get here today and I have limited specific knowledge about the project, but I'm here.

U

To listen to your comments, thank you, mr fisher. I understand you're, not an engineer so we'll be sure.

A

Not an engine take notes about any engineering questions we have. Thank you welcome. Thank you.

S

Okay, so david b craft, again bureau of development review, as mentioned uh next.

S

On the agenda is s-20-0030, which is the ethiopian orthodox tuohito church, which we have dubbed eotc.

S

And that is on bachman valley, and what this is proposing is the expansion of the current.

S

Religious establishment, while also bringing the site into compliance again, this is before.

S

The planning zoning commission as a concept plan. There is no action required. However, with.

S

All site plans, the planning commission may consider delegating approval to the chair.

S

So, for those who are unfamiliar, this property is a lot it's at 2239, bachman valley, road, which is.

S

On the outskirts of manchester maryland, so the property itself is outlined here.

S

This down here is the extents of manchester the municipal limits. This is hanover pike, which is.

S

Maryland route 30.: this is bachman valley, road, which is maryland route 496.. Yes, 496., perfect.

S

And so what this property consists of is roughly 25 and a half acres, and as mentioned it hasn't.

S

Established or it has a religious establishment currently residing on it, the property is currently.

S

Fixed with three buildings, there is an archive in prayer, slash holy water, immersion building.

S

And assembly hall and a residence that is used by and for the priest before and after church service.

S

The site has established access onto maryland 496 through this property. Here you can see.

S

The driveway here there are two other users of that driveway shown here. I believe they.

S

Are both with the church as well? There is an access easement in place for the.

S

Portion of the drive that leaves the subject, property and crosses neighboring properties.

S

There is a stream that crosses the western portion of the property, as you can see here,.

S

And that has a wooded riparian zone and there is also a pond on the property as you can. There is.

S

As you can see here, uh there are no fema 100 year, floodplain designations on site.

S

All adjoining properties are zone, agricultural and either host farmland or private residences. It.

S

Should be noted that the northwest property, which is this one here, these two properties over here.

S

And this property down here are all encompassed by a mouth agricultural preservation, easement.

S

All properties in this area are served by private, well and septic systems.

S

So a concept plan was submitted to the county uh on january 1st 2021 after it was determined.

S

The site was in violation of operating without an approved site plan. The plan.

S

Identifies the construction of new buildings as well as improvements to existing buildings.

S

So the new buildings construct of a 10 000 square foot church, which is this building here as well.

S

As an estimated 6600 square foot holy water immersion building, which is this building here,.

S

Expansion is proposed for the existing assembly hall, which is this building here.

S

And an existing archive and prayer building, which is this building down here- this building here, is.

S

The residence or the priest house- and there is no proposed changes to that so religious.

S

Establishments are a principal permitted use within the agricultural zoning district and there.

S

Are bulk requirements for religious establishments within that zoning district and those are as.

S

Follows the property has to be at least two acres in size? The lot has to be at least 200 feet wide.

S

The front yard setback it has to be a hundred feet, the side yard setbacks has to be 50 feet.

S

And the rear yard setback has to be 50 feet, taking all of that into consideration. Zoning has granted.

S

Approval of the plan as presented and has noted that the above bulk requirements are being met.

S

Access to the site is via existing access to bachman valley road. So, as you can see here uh to.

S

Ensure compliance with code, the existing drive will be enlarged to be 22 feet wide and paved.

S

As the improvements and associated stormwater management to this drive are exceeding the.

S

Existing access, easement and new excess easements will be required if we go to the next slide here.

S

So a freestanding sign is also proposed at the entrance of the site from bachman valley, road.

S

And that will lie within the new access easement. The detail of this sign is shown on sheet 15.

S

Within plant set, but also on the screen here and has a measurement of a four foot by 20 foot board.

S

That is going to be on two stilts and it shows the overall height of the sign being a 30 foot, maximum.

S

Based on the projected trip generations, a traffic study is required, however, as access to this is to.

S

State highway administration or sha's roadway, they are not requiring a traffic impact study.

S

With that carroll county department of public works waived that requirement, as it is only affecting state roadways.

S

The developer is required to provide access improvements, as outlined within the state highway.

S

Administration access manual but other than that state highway has granted concept approval.

S

So I'm going to go back to the okay, perfect, so carroll county code states that the parking.

S

Requirements for religious establishments are one for every four persons based on the maximum.

S

Capacity of the sanctuary, the parking tabulation identifies the maximum capacity of the use on.

S

The property as being 500 persons and thus would require 125 parking spaces. There are 126 spaces.

S

Shown on the plan of the 126 parking spaces, 10 of which are to be reserved for handicap parking.

S

There are concrete pathways that are going to be added that are either five feet wide to seven.

S

Feet wide and are going to connect the proposed parking areas to the new or improved buildings.

S

Site compliance has granted concept approval of the plan and is requiring additional.

S

Details for review of the final plan, along with the normal service, which is shown as.

S

As being open from 7 a.m to 4 p.m, uh the church also organizes two to three special events.

S

Annually, which can yield thousands of participants, those vary per each event, but based on the most.

S

Recent one, uh which I believe was in october, uh the carroll county sheriff's office, was hired to.

S

Help mitigate traffic in and out of the site, so the development is to be served by public.

S

Or I'm sorry, private, well and septic systems, so there is an existing well. That is shown as being.

S

Here next to the assembly hall, and there will be additional septic reserve systems being put in.

S

On right next to the existing trenches here, so this is the existing septic field.

S

The well and septic plan can be found on sheet 30 within the plant set. This site is located within.

S

The no plan water service area and the no plan sewer service area per the carroll county, water.

S

And sewer master plan, the carroll county health department will require additional details for.

S

The review of the final plan, so the building materials and colors vary between the buildings.

S

The proposed materials comprised of metal, exterior, exterior insulation, finishing systems or eifs and.

S

Siding the colors range from brown, white or beige and gold, architectural elevations are provided on.

S

Sheets 33, through 43, within the plan set, there is a five foot high retainer wall proposed near.

S

The multi-purpose hall, so it will kind of wrap on the building, so it'll run this way and then.

S

Along the building this way and there's also a dumpster enclosure that is proposed here,.

S

So details including height materials and colors of the retaining wall and the dumpster enclosure.

S

Will be provided on the final plan set. Forest conservation for the site is to be addressed by.

S

An easement over the wooded area surrounding the stream, along with areas of a4 station.

S

So you can see there is an easement going to be right here as well as over. Here.

S

A variance was granted to allow for the removal of specimen trees. Landscaping is proposed throughout.

S

The proposed parking area, water resources will require an easement surrounding the.

S

Stream crossing the western portion of the property with additional details to.

S

Be provided during the review of the final plan, so this line shows the extents of that easement.

S

And you can see there is a break between the two easements here so that the the property owners.

S

Can navigate to the back of the property over an existing bridge that crosses the stream here.

S

Floodplain management has granted concept approval of the plan, with an easement being required.

S

Stormwater management will be provided through the construction of multiple bio retention.

S

Facilities throughout the site and they have granted concepts on water management approval.

S

The concept same plan, what subject to citizen involvement after february 2022, I'm sorry february,.

S

22Nd 2021 technical review committee meeting. It should be noted that that was a virtual meeting.

S

um During then, no citizens were present again. That may have been due to the virtual nature of that.

S

After the meeting, an email was received from an adjoining property owner which outlined concerns.

S

For safety, along with questions relating to the proposed development, a phone call was.

S

Also received after the meeting from another adjoining property owner who did not pose.

S

Opposition but had concerns about traffic on site on october 11 2022, the design and architectural.

S

Review committee, which is an advisory group, met to review the project and they had two comments.

S

As it relates to the project, one was that it has an ornate architecture and appears to be upgrading.

S

The looks of the existing building and the second relates to the size of the roadside sign.

S

So originally the size of the sign was six foot by 32 foot on two stilts, with a maximum height.

S

Of 30 feet after this comment from the darc, they have shrunk that to be what it is now, which was.

S

Four foot: twenty by twenty. Thank you still on stilts and still with a maximum height of 30 feet.

S

And finally, the final site plan will be tested and reviewed for.

S

Adequacy of public facilities in accordance with carroll county code.

S

So I'd be more than happy to answer any questions you have to kind of give a better.

S

Idea as to how the site looks, I'm just going to run through some pictures of the site here.

S

So this is the entrance or the exit onto maryland 496. So this is looking back at the roadway.

S

This picture and this picture are looking both ways on the road, and this is standing across the street. Looking at the site entrance.

S

This is on the site itself, so this is the gravel parking area that currently exists.

S

On site, this is part of the access drive and these.

S

Two bottom pictures show where the new parking area is to be located.

S

These are some pictures of the existing buildings, so this is.

S

The existing assembly hall- this is the priest house, and these two pictures are.

S

Where, roughly, where that new church is going to be located,.

S

This is the existing archive and prayer holy water, immersion building.

S

This is another view both of these of the other side, of where the existing parking or.

S

I'm sorry, the proposed parking is to be located and this is standing on the existing parking area.

S

Looking to the rear of the site where those adjoining residential buildings are located.

S

Okay and so again, if there's any questions, I or mr fisher here will be happy to answer them.

A

Thank you david, mr fisher. Do you have anything you'd like to add.

U

I can tell you that of the properties that surround it, can you put up the slide that has.

U

The various uh lots this one here, yeah that uh that'll work. If I could approach this, certainly.

U

um The site that that we're talking about is called site on here and is outlined and.

U

There is a notch in it that has two lots. uh Both of them are controlled by the church.

U

And this the property over which the easement runs, which contains I think about 59 acres, is.

U

Also owned by the church, okay, so they actually own all the property apps.

A

Anything else, mr fisher, none not at this time.

A

I am, I have just a few questions and then you may not know the answer. If not me too um does.

A

The what's referred to, as the priest's house does: does someone actually reside in that house full.

A

Time or is that just used uh intermittently? I do not know the answer to that. The to the full-time.

U

Aspect of that question I do know that uh there is a priest who is seems to be on the property.

U

Whatever I have been there, which is only a handful of times- and I note that on the tax records uh his.

U

Address is listed as the address of this property, but I don't know whether he's there full time. Okay,.

A

um And by the way, I also wanted to clarify we do this, sometimes, as we deal with religious.

A

Institutions, our purview here has nothing to do with theology or religion, it's land use, uh and so.

A

As we're asking these questions, I just want to be clear that that's what we're focused on is the use.

A

Of the property and the land and how it um effects or doesn't affect joining and other landowners.

A

The one thing that bothers me a little bit is that part of the presentation was that apparently, this.

A

Was being used in this fashion for some period of time without any sort of site plan, without any.

A

Plan approval: do we have a sense of how long that was going on before they submitted the site plan.

U

uh I know they acquired the property in 2017. and they came to see me after they had difficulty.

U

With the use of the property- and they came to see me in 2020.- I don't know what exactly.

U

Transpired before that, I can tell you that it is my impression that there was some ignorance of the.

U

Appropriate processes to be followed on the part of the people who owned the property as of 2017.

U

um Which I attempted to rectify uh over time right and hence we're here today, so you did.

A

um And david, I might have missed this in reading the report. Is there? Is there a.

A

Fire protection system- that's required in this building, so any new construction per current.

S

Building codes requires a sprinkler system, um it other than that. I am unaware of any.

S

Special treatment that this would require: okay, so the new church building, presumably.

A

Would require a fire suppression system, a tank, all the other stuff that goes with, that. Okay,.

A

um The parking issue um so there's an there, are events a couple times a year where it's described.

A

As thousands plural of people um descend on this site, um we have 125 parking spots. I think um how.

A

How do how do they plan on dealing with thousands of people coming in when they're 125 parking side.

A

Presumably they're, I'm gonna presume how do people get there? How are they going to park if.

U

That question is addressed to me. I understand from talking to other people uh that those people come.

U

In in buses and are bust onto the site, and they don't actually most of them, don't actually come.

U

In vehicles, mr beekraft, do you know anything about this? I do not um so one of the the correspondence.

S

That I've received- which they may be here and I believe they send it to the planning zoning.

S

Commission was a document that outlined a picture showing some of those buses, so that seems to be.

S

Accurate and the plan doesn't call for bus parking, as best that I can tell um is that is that right.

S

Yeah, that's correct. So all the parking they're showing is your typical parking space is 20 feet.

S

Long um so I don't think any of those would be special for buses. um Do we know where the buses.

A

Parked in the prior instances, I do not know that the answer to that, because, with this.

A

With this use, that's anticipated: well, not it's not just anticipated, with the use that has occurred.

A

um It would seem that there ought to be.

A

um A site plan that takes into account this use and to me that means that there ought to.

A

Be adequate bus parking for the folks that they anticipate coming to the property.

A

The other thing I don't understand, we've received a number of um emails and comments from the public.

A

And I'll give the public an opportunity to comment after we ask our questions, but this.

A

Noise situation bothers me. I don't understand why they're making noise at five o'clock in.

A

The morning and using pa system, I just don't understand the use and why this is happening.

A

um Do either of you have any understanding of of what that's all about, and what this involves.

U

I do not, I also have no idea. Okay, um you know david as you outlined at the beginning, under the.

A

Statute, one of the things that we look at is in our site plan reviews consistency with the with.

A

The master plan and part of that is, yes, churches are principal permitted use in the agricultural.

A

Zone, that's fine most of the time, and the idea behind it obviously, is that churches tend to be.

A

Not heavy users of traffic, they don't consume a lot in terms of resources. They tend to be pretty.

A

Quiet all of those things are pretty harmonious with the agricultural zone, um so the the numerous.

A

Comments that we've received from the public about this really consistent loud noise, that's happening.

A

On the site, which, in my view, does interfere with the quiet and enjoyment of adjacent landowners.

A

Something I'd want to get more information about, because I'm not sure.

A

It seems to me if, if there's a need in the religious practices to have this, then we're going.

A

To have a need to deal with it in some way, and so I guess need a better understanding of what it is.

A

So we can figure out how best to address it from a land use.

A

Standpoint, uh mr chairman, I'd agree with that. I might only say that I don't believe that those.

U

Complaints were made to representatives of the church, I'm not familiar with them, and I I don't.

U

Really know the details, nor do I know the source from which the complaint came. How close it is.

U

To the property or what the circumstances are, certainly it's something that can be addressed.

A

Well, my guess is, you might get a better understand. We all might get a better understanding as we hear.

A

Some comments from I'm sure I'm waiting to hear what the comment and that would be that would.

A

Be constructive um the um so we'll get that in in a little bit um and look. I would just.

A

Say to everybody who's here and the commission remind everybody. This is a constructive process.

A

We all have property rights and we all have neighbors and we want to have good neighbors.

A

And we want to be good neighbors and so how we can do. That is what we're discussing here today.

A

um And so we want to, we want to have everybody's property rights uh in mind as we look at this, our.

A

Job is to balance those things out. We frequently have people come in and earnestly say to us.

A

We wish you would focus more on property rights and our response is who's. Yours or.

A

Your neighbor, sometimes your neighbor, wants to tell you what you can do with your property or.

A

What you can't and uh other times it's reversed, so just keep that in mind as we work through. We.

A

Work through that today, we we're going to welcome your comments in a few minutes, but please provide.

A

Them to us in a way that helps us balance out those issues and understand the circumstances.

A

The um lighting is another question that we typically deal with. I'm almost done. I promise.

A

Then I'll turn it over again. Do we have a sense of whether the lighting is something that's on.

A

Every night, all night, long or or these things are timed to go off at a certain point. Has that been.

A

Developed yet, or is that still in the process? I do not have any information about that by one.

U

Comment would be would that this property seems to be sort of in a bowl. uh And if you look at the.

U

The pictures- the horizon is not very far away in any one of those pictures.

U

And I have been to the property, and I can't you can't see it from baltimore valley, road.

U

um And uh it sort of sits down okay, but certainly that is that is.

U

An aspect of it that that is important, that we get our.

U

Get our arms around certainly um and then the last thing I'll raise and then turn it over to.

A

Everybody else, let me just chuck off some of the things that um I had is the sign um anybody who.

A

Watches us on tv, which is almost nobody by the way our ratings are bad yeah. Our ratings are pretty.

P

Bad um you'll hear us talk about here's talk about signs a lot and we're not fans of big signs um and.

A

uh And that would apply here as well. So a sign particularly out in a predominantly agricultural.

A

Area that is uh 30 feet high and 20 feet wide um isn't going to get my signature, I'm only one.

A

Of seven so, but uh I would like to see something that's a little more consistent with the community.

A

Lets people know how to find it where the where the turn is, but, um in my view, can probably be.

A

Accomplished with a smaller sign, so with that um I'll turn it over. um I agree on this time. I.

Q

Am like on a good day, five feet tall. It says the sign would be 4 by 20.. So if I look at these grids.

Q

um I think they're probably like two feet and go across that's 14 or 16., so I would say from.

Q

Point to point: it's almost 20., so that's kind of excessive. I think, especially knowing the area.

Q

Out there, where it's going to be, but I also know the county, has guidelines that they're going to.

Q

Look at, but I would definitely prefer to see it smaller rather than larger and the having.

Q

Done development, the specimen trees are always a question: um are they and and they've been waived.

Q

Are they in an area where they would be building? Is that by those specimen, trees are being.

Q

Not being addressed or kept, do you know the answer to that day.

S

So, typically, um whenever a specimen tree is to be removed on a site, it has to get waived or.

S

You have to get a variance through the bureau of resource management, which is then signed off.

S

By the director a lot of times when these trees come in to be removed either they cannot be saved.

S

Through this development or they're already in a poor condition to fully answer your question, let.

S

Me see which one of those wasn't the case and then I will report back okay, I I recall in the packet.

N

Here there was actually a list of the trees and some were not deemed to be saved because of root.

N

Rot and things like that, so just that might help you know, but some looked okay. According to the the.

N

Grading that was that was done, yeah and I think um for me, the noise, um especially and and I'm looking.

Q

Interestingly, to hear from the owners, but um starting at 5 a.m, I assume there's a noise.

Q

Ordinance somewhere throughout the county that does address that that's correct. The county has.

M

A noise ordinance and basically the standard for that noise ordinance, is something that.

M

Is unreasonable um the county used to have this process where there would be different decibels.

M

For different times of the day and you needed calibrated meters, but there were just a little.

M

Too many moving parts to adequately enforce that um that noise ordinance so the county changed.

M

It to this sort of, if there's unreasonable noise, the sheriff's office will go out and.

M

Investigate and determine whether or not to issue a citation if the noise is actually unreasonable.

M

So it could be any time of day any decibel doesn't matter if it's at 5am or 5 pm. Okay, um I think.

Q

A lot of what jeff said um and I'm sure other comments will hear that.

Q

We would definitely want to see it again before we do any.

Q

Approvals, any other questions, no, the questions. I have uh really come from some of the comments.

D

That the public made on the traffic- it's definitely um I know it's a state road is.

D

There any guidelines that we can enforce because it seems like they almost need a deceleration.

D

And maybe a turn lane with some of the comments, because it looks like uh coming from the east.

D

You know the site, distance isn't large and if someone misses a turn and is backing up and you.

D

Know, obviously, with a sign it's going to be easier, but you know people do go rather fast through that.

D

Stretch of road there I do know that, is there any guidelines that we can enforce any kind.

D

Of different turn lanes or deceleration lanes or anything or state road, we can't do anything.

D

Not not on a state road, um unfortunately, that would be up to sha to make those improvements.

D

And I do know with noise, I mean, like you, know, lehigh in their choir. They have requirements.

D

That the county gave them for when they can operate and the kind of noise level, obviously.

D

With the complaints we've had, I would really think going forward that we I I would think we.

D

Could enforce something you know I'll also sit on other boards, that we have issues with noise.

D

And you know the the homeowner association that was complaining. You know basically made the county.

D

Buy a decibel reader, so they can enforce it. Some, you know I'll sit on the state, fair board and.

D

They've had a problem down there with you know, late night festivities going on and neighbor.

D

Complaints, so the technology is available. You know, I think we probably need with the comments.

D

That I've read and heard from people that we definitely need to try to do something about.

D

The events I mean you know definitely sounded very excessive and very early in the morning, so.

M

Sure and um mr huff just to um it's my understanding that the lehigh property that.

M

Was a conditional to use approval, so it's part of that conditional use the bza put on that noise.

M

Requirement we're here under a principal permitted, so unfortunately uh you don't have that sort of.

M

Authority that sticks so to speak, however, just the noise ordinance does exist. So if the neighbors.

M

Feel at any time there is an unreasonable noise, they call the sheriff's office, the sheriff's.

M

Office will investigate and issue citations if they feel that the uh the noise is unreasonable.

M

And interfering with the quiet enjoyment of the surrounding community yeah, I think that by the.

D

Comments that happened multiple times. The other thing I guess I would ask- is the building height.

D

I mean, I know it kind of sits in a bowl, but to me it looks like to the west and to the south. You can.

D

Probably see in from adjacent properties, obviously um you know the building seems excessively high. I.

D

Think it's an average roof height, though, is what you go by. So I don't know how that comes up now.

D

Because it looks like the roof is probably almost what 60 60 feet. The top of the dome anyway.

S

Yeah, so that's one of the items that the offensive zoning is reviewing for is building heights and.

S

Let me see if I can find it in the section of code here, but that is one thing that I noted.

S

On the architectural plans that it's not quite clear because there's such a grade change that.

S

One side of the building, maybe one height, while the other, maybe another from grade, um so it.

S

So for the agricultural zoning district and I'm just going to read it right from the code.

S

Except, as provided in chapter 158.130e, no building or structure or part thereof, shall.

S

Be constructed or extended to exceed two and a half stories or a height of 35 feet.

S

So as again, it sounds like this is going to come back for the commission for the final plan, we'll.

S

Make sure that it's clearly annotated on the plans, what that height is and if necessary, they.

S

Can work with the office of zoning or the zoning administrator to get a variance if.

S

They're exceeding that heightened restriction, and since I already have the microphone I'm.

S

Just going to go ahead and further give more information about the specimen tree question.

S

So it looks like there are four specimen trees generally in this area here that are.

S

All clumped together, they are annotated as being specimen trees, one two three and four- and this is.

S

On sheet 25, but those four are to be removed because the site development will impact the.

S

Critical root zone for those, so it's noted as them being in fair condition, but I think that's.

S

Why there's four trees being removed because they're all clumped together within that.

A

Will this come back for us to review again before final with, obviously, probably many.

D

Many many uh comments. Yeah the david answered. My question first go ahead so generally, it would not.

S

um Generally, this comes before as a content plan, and it comes before as a final plan. However, due to.

S

um The nature of your guys's comments, if you so choose, we can certainly bring it back as.

S

A special report to see how those comments were addressed before coming back as a final.

S

Site development plan for your approval, the um I think that might be a good idea for a couple.

A

Reasons one is, we have a lot of questions um and secondly, uh you know the engineers aren't here.

A

Today and despite mr fisher's best efforts, you know he can't can't drag people in here.

A

um And I think our rules actually require them to be here, and so, while we appreciate you being.

A

Here, mr fisher, in fairness to us, wanting to get some technical answers to these questions,.

A

um We're not able to do that and I think probably it makes sense to have. Maybe a special report take.

A

Place when they're here and they can hopefully they will address many of these things and then.

A

They can explain some of these things from a technical standpoint uh back to us, so.

A

um One of one of the other things I believe, that's a reasonable position and one one of.

D

The other things I would I would like to see is like: where is the parking going to be for.

D

Events because, obviously, with a huge uh septic area they're going to put in there, you know they.

D

Don't want to park cars on top of the septic area, so four buses or be especially buses yeah, so yeah.

D

So the I realized that it's a bowl but the adjoining properties around there that aren't.

Q

All owned by the church may sit up higher and look down as so. They probably do have views of this. So.

Q

I think the architectural designs are going to be critical um simply because of what people.

Q

Have to look at as a real tour by profession. I am um cognizant of property rights, whether.

Q

It's the owners of the property or surrounding properties, so we do want to be fair to everybody.

Q

um And when we're talking about the parking, I do think that we should probably make sure that.

Q

If there are buses that bus people, there is adequate parking for them on paved surfaces.

N

I'm done and to follow up on the bus just to make sure there's adequate in and out.

N

For buses and to uh the roads there, because they are pretty narrow, yeah.

N

You guys checked off everything that I had uh written down when I was reading the service that.

N

That's great, I would just I just say mr shape right here. I think you're hearing a lot of.

N

You know relevant comments and I mean mr fisher I'm sorry. Mr fisher, mr schaefer is too.

N

Always listening um you're not on this one um and then it's you know it sounds like.

N

The uh the engineers and the owners need to become very familiar with the zoning.

N

Laws, it's fascinating reading. I've been doing it for a long time, so.

N

um You know we look forward to having you come back with the engineers and seeing what.

N

Changes you've made well, I I can assure you that all the comments that I'm hearing today.

U

um As within 20 minutes after I leave here, I'm going to be reporting on them, so.

U

I agree with the buses and and all that you guys pretty comprehensive all right. Well then,.

A

Let's open it up to public comment and let me just say a couple things before we start number.

A

One, as I said, we want to receive the information from you. We've read everything you've submitted.

A

um If someone makes a comment that you were going to make, you don't need to make the same comment.

A

It we don't keep a tally of how many people say the same thing and give that extra weight.

A

um So if somebody says it you don't need to say it. Some people don't like to speak in public and.

A

We certainly understand that anyway. um I hope you understand that we've paid attention to the.

A

Comments that have come in from the public we've tried to address some of those issues here. Some.

A

We can't because we don't have the engineers and then we'll have to be dealt with at a later time.

A

And lastly, just please be civil and respectful to the other members of the public. Here, some.

A

Of whom may not agree with you, and actually it helps the public discourse if we can hear all.

A

Sides of an issue, so if somebody wants to stand up and say the light's green and somebody else.

A

Wants to stand up say the lights red. We want to welcome both sides of both sides. Of that.

A

um I may, if you're going on too long, I reserve the right to cut you off just because I want.

A

To make sure everybody who wants to say something has a fair opportunity to speak.

A

Okay, so we've got three minutes. um You know in the world, I'm a lawyer by training mr fisher, mr.

A

Schaefer others that are here we're used to having time limits. When we make arguments, um mr almond.

A

Knows that well so we mean no disrespect, it really is just a matter of fairness. We've had situations.

A

In the past, where folks will come up and they'll dominate the microphone for about 20 minutes,.

A

um And then it it makes it so other people don't have an opportunity. So it's really meant to be.

A

Fair, um so I will reserve the right to cut you off when the three minutes is up. You don't have.

A

To use all three minutes, we will be listening to what you say what you say matters to us.

A

um So with that, there's no there's no numbering system, but when you do come up, walk up to the.

A

Microphone, please state your name and your address and then please provide us with your with your.

A

Comments so whoever would like to go first, please feel free to come up and offer the comments.

V

Here, mr chairman, you're talking about safety from the highways and all I just need your.

A

Name and address first breaker white oak court: 3820.. Thank you and uh you preach the safety and.

V

All that on the bachmann valley, road is going crazy, since this church has moved in up there.

V

People don't know how to drive they're going 25 30 mile an hour 35 mile an hour on bachmann.

V

Valley, road and turning into everybody's driveway, they don't care and then they when.

V

They get into their driveway, they know they've made the mistake and puts it right in the verse.

V

A lot of accidents have happened in bachman valley road because of these people. Now and as far as the.

V

Buses, they had buses there and they blocked the roads, trying to get into a little opening.

V

And they'd get lost in the neighborhood. These people don't have gps on these buses.

V

I guess they go through all their neighborhoods because they don't know where this dam compound.

V

Is excuse me language, but that's all I got to say I'll. Do it in two and a half minutes, but.

V

I appreciate you all listening to me. Thank you. Thank you. That may be a record.

A

It doesn't doesn't actually work that way. You don't get a credit. My name is charles bucha. I.

W

Live three quarters of them all the way up on the hill? To that lady's point of view, I have.

W

Been interrupted in my house with the windows open for years with noise, I have had officers.

W

Come into my driveway in their cruiser past my house, when their windows open and hear it.

W

This is all way before seven o'clock in the morning theologically. I know we're not supposed.

W

To talk about it, but I wouldn't want to listen to jim and jesse gospel bluegrass for four hours.

W

The camping is oh, it's despicable, but nonetheless um to my whatever time frame, zoning's approved.

W

For that, this is a site concept. I understand I'm not quite sure whether you're in power to.

W

Implement discretion, but my request is that this board and anybody else look really long and hard.

W

I believe they would be negligent and I know that's a strong word if they don't look into.

W

The organization itself, I've done research, I've interviewed ethiopian people who have been with.

W

The church, who are scared to death, there's bad actors in this program. This is much larger than.

W

This site plan now I know that's what we got to talk about. I want to get that on record. Okay, much.

W

Larger, go down to arlington, go down to washington dc, go up to philadelphia! Do your homework on where.

W

The funding is coming from the actual use like things like a health services that is in that site.

W

Plan, please examine their definition of health services. There are a lot of other I'm trying to.

W

Go as fast as I can, I believe, and I apologize that I'm nervous. I got short time and I'm upset.

W

um Public address systems, all those questions are in there. I I submitted them. Please pay attention.

W

To them, but I will tell you this in closing, I believe, based on the historical violations.

W

Which there have been multiple, the negative impact on our community? I know people who have moved and.

W

Have sold and are contemplating moving and selling? I looked at the master plan when I bought eight.

W

Years ago and brooks leahy, and I and I spent a lot of money getting my conditional zoning done for my.

W

Business and I'm at risk hundreds of thousands of dollars and I've got to sit on my porch at.

W

Well, I can no longer sit on my porch on the weekends, like my wife and I did on our glider. The.

W

Airplanes don't come across, you can look at the flight plans. The master plan said no commercial.

W

And I believe this entity is a commercial entity that is.

W

Accessing or utilizing religious benefits now that's my opinion. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong the lack.

W

Of enforcement- gee whiz guys it's seven o'clock officers are here. You can go back to commissioner.

W

Wentz's town hall meeting where they were deceitful in saying they were only going to be.

W

A small church they were only going to build one rotunda. How in six months, can the renderings that.

W

Are now on their website and by the way, they've taken a lot off look at their mission statement.

W

I said it a year ago: it's coming to truth today, so historical violations, negative impact, lack of.

W

Enforcement is not agricultural based. I believe the premise of the zoning for religious use.

W

Is for agricultural based not to buy an agricultural based or zoned property to.

W

Be used for a religious expansion, that's my opinion. My opinion is and then I'll close.

W

I believe they have been deceitful and if you want to sue me and come after me, come after me.

W

I believe it's all these things are proven. I can prove every single one of them.

W

They've been disrespectful to our community, whether it's walmart, whether it's highs, whether.

W

It's now kids that come up for weekend retreats at these other peripheral or adjacent properties for.

W

Church discipline, they're leaving officers have records and we have eyewitnesses of these children.

W

Leaving because they don't like the corporal punishment, that's disrespectful to me. That's what.

W

Is that safety as well, when you see a kid, come up out of the bushes or walking down bachmann valley.

W

So I believe, they're deceitful. I believe it's disrespectful. I I know it's unlawful.

W

This is all documented, and this to me is reasoning enough to go back and look at their principal use.

W

Where their funding comes from go a u.n, I want to talk more. I've done research about u.n reports.

W

Ethiopia is a un member. There have been reports about organizations where bad characters come over.

W

Here to avoid prosecution for the atrocities that they have done over there, I believe it's highly.

W

Probable that some of those folks- that's why I put in my questions about non-documented immigrants.

W

That hasn't done nothing to do with color of skin. I don't care, I don't care about theology. Let me.

A

I do want to give other people a chance, you're not prohibited from sending us other emails and.

A

Other other thoughts, so just because we're out of time for you to speak, okay, thank you very.

W

Much for your attention uh again deceitful, disrespectful unlawful. I believe we would be.

W

Negligent, if we didn't really examine the use that is, has been used for the other other areas.

W

That they have used religious sites for commercial entities whatever. Thank you very much. Thank you.

A

Someone else like to uh speak come on up, sir.

A

X

My name is brooks rugimer, I'm here with my wife, alan. We live at 2903 at vail road, we're one of.

X

The people that sent you a letter to address some things that were already spoken about and.

X

Some questions that asked that were asked when we visited in june of 2018 the buses were parked.

X

Within 20 or 30 feet of the two houses one was between and the others were right up against. There.

X

um Regarding the sign issue, I agree that a big sign may not be appropriate there, but I'm a crash.

X

Investigator and I primarily deal with trucking and busing, but the more the more notice you give.

X

To people that are visiting for this place, the less of the issues that were talked about will.

X

Happen, I've witnessed people that have missed the driveway they back up in the middle of the street.

X

The buses couldn't make the turn so they're backing back out. I think giving as much lead.

X

Time using the visibility, that's there will help alleviate. Some of that. Excuse me. The noise.

X

I want to clarify this noise starts sometime in the late evening and goes all night long. It.

X

Doesn't start at 5 a.m? My wife is hearing impaired and it's woken us up at 1, 132 3 o'clock in the.

X

Morning we've called 9-1-1 and the sheriff's department does respond the first time they.

X

Responded, the deputy that showed up was astonished with by the hundreds of people that were just.

X

Walking around and they had loudspeakers in this metal building blaring this music.

X

That we could hear almost a half mile away. There was no one else in the building.

X

Since then, when we've called and the sheriff's department responds they'll turn the music off.

X

Until the deputy leaves, then the music comes back up, so we end up being the pesky person that keeps.

X

Calling 9-1-1, because we can tell we can tell when, when the deputies leave, because right away the.

X

Music's back up, I think music is a part of a lot of different faiths and- and we respect that, but.

X

Again, it doesn't need to be all night. It doesn't need to be that loud um and then recently, the past.

X

Couple events they've had early sunday morning when they all bug out there's just this non-stop.

X

Horn blowing as this convoy of traffic and the hundreds of cars leave and, quite frankly,.

X

It's just the thumb in their nose at us for for us, calling and and complaining about the noise.

X

So, as chuck said, there's been a a history of non-compliance with our zoning rules and and.

X

Just disrespect to the neighbors, and I like to see that addressed before uh much of this goes forward.

X

And my concern is also, we are all on well and septic out there and I don't know what a 5.

X

000 person crowd will do to the well system, we're not that far away.

X

So whether there needs to be a study of the water table out there if they need to bring.

X

In water for these events, which is possible, they should maybe be required to do that.

X

um And attorney fisher, you had said earlier that part of the issue was your clients, ignorance of.

X

The laws and the zoning. I think we can understand that you don't know what you don't know, but they.

X

They know what they're doing as far as the noise and they thumb their nose at us. So if they're.

X

Going to not work with the community about something as simple as noise, I don't really.

X

Expect them to work with us on any of the more critical uh needs of the area. Thank you. Thank you.

A

Anyone else like to speak.

Y

Good morning, um mike hinkle uh 4365 partnership drive.

Y

We own um a residence just to the north uh east of of the church, and our house is uh the middle.

Y

Of the hill, we look down directly into the valley. Now the valley is a beautiful valley. I don't know.

Y

If you're familiar with it out there gorgeous everyone who comes to our house first thing.

Y

They say you have the best view in carroll county, unfortunately, now well. First of all,.

Y

I'm glad I'm here today because what I just saw what the plan is is shocking to me really. I had.

Y

No idea the scope and the breadth of what they were proposing to to build there. This beautiful.

Y

Valley we have and you're going to put these buildings and parking lots there. It makes zero.

Y

Sense, it's really going to ruin it's going to not be nice for it's going to ruin our view.

Y

Carroll county has a preference for.

Y

Land preservation- and I just don't see how.

Y

Putting these buildings and this parking lot in this beautiful valley.

Y

uh Fosters land preservation actually it's to the contrary right. It makes zero sense.

Y

We've already touched on the traffic issues: that's a clear safety public safety issue. There.

Y

Have been numerous accidents, there's police presence down there, we've already touched on.

Y

The quiet enjoyment, I echo what my fellow residents have said. It's loud uh it's it's.

Y

It's uh persistent uh as as property owners, it's not something we should have to deal with right.

Y

Lastly, what what I don't understand is what is the benefit to the local community and what is.

Y

The benefit to the local residents- I really don't see any benefit at all. If anything, I.

Y

There's a laundry list of negatives, I'm concerned about my property values and.

Y

I'm sure uh the the my fellow residents are also concerned with the property values, but.

Y

I don't know the demographics right, I haven't studied them. I don't know if.

Y

You have either, but I can't imagine there are many ethiopians here in carroll county.

Y

So that this church would service, my understanding is it's mostly out of out of town out of county.

Y

Persons who come up uh to to attend a church, so my question simply is: what is the benefit to me?.

Y

As a local property owner, what is the benefit to carroll county? What is the benefit to this local.

Y

Community, where this church and and their plan it doesn't serve the residents of carroll county so.

Y

That's a big time concern of mine, along with what everything else has been said. Thank you. Thank you.

Z

My name is ellen rugmer. My husband spoke. We live at 2108 updale road, I'd like to touch on what he.

Z

Just said about the out-of-town visitors, my husband and I went there one morning after.

Z

um Being awoken at three o'clock four o'clock in the morning.

Z

um To see what we, what was going on and we wanted to know what was happening and the.

Z

Cars we saw were from virginia new york, new jersey, illinois ohio. I did not see very many.

Z

If any maryland cars there, they were all out of town. There were three buses, the rest were.

Z

All cars so there's a lot more than 500 cars gonna need to park there. Thank you.

AA

Ken neusebaum 2419 bachman valley road, I'm a joint land owner. uh My concern is: they had a.

AA

Project this summer they did and they had guidelines to go by instruction to go by.

AA

They followed some of them and then they just went and did what they wanted and they started cutting.

AA

My trees down for sight distance. My concern is they're going to do all this now. Are they going.

AA

To follow guidelines on these proposals, they're going to do or they're going to just start doing.

AA

Whatever they want once they get it. Oh you know, I've dealt with it personally. We haven't resolved.

AA

The problem, yet they don't want to answer my calls. They don't call me back nothing. They.

AA

Just leave me hanging they trespassed on me and took my stuff, so I'm just warning you ahead of.

AA

Time that when you give them a set of guidelines, are they going to follow them? Thank you. Thank you.

AB

Wilbur glover 2049, botman valley road and I am kind of nervous. um It's okay, when the first.

AB

When my property backs right up to him, I'm the closest neighbor when the church first moved in.

AB

These they started out real nice. They were in for about say two weeks. They invited us down.

AB

To have a little meeting with what was going to go on.

AB

They said they were going to put up one building and use the barn for worship, services and before.

AB

Before the property was sold, the previous owner we fished their pond. All the time me and my grandkids.

AB

And he asked the the new owners if that was possible and they said yeah.

AB

So you know we we got invited down, they said we could fish and all everything was great.

AB

Then I used you know, I was actually I could walk around the property and everything.

AB

Then one day I was walking around, I was talking to trying to talk to one of the priests, because.

AB

It's not much english there and I walked up by the house and I seen where they were doing groundwork.

AB

So I asked him up what is this for, and he kind of didn't say anything. So I asked you books like.

AB

These are for restrooms and he still didn't say anything. So I guess he didn't understand.

AB

So I gave him a male jester of somebody peeing on the ground, so I guess I either embarrassed.

AB

Him or that's what the truth was: a week later I was on vacation. I get this text message.

AB

That I'm no longer allowed to fish the pine walk around the property. Don't look don't take.

AB

Any pictures more or less don't even look in that direction. It's hard not to look in that direction.

AB

Especially after that later on, I've seen where they're putting a.

AB

Addition onto the back of the barn I emailed the county and said I think, they're putting a deck on.

AB

Without a permit and the next day I seen neighbors studying up walls.

AB

So send another email well, that project is still sitting there. You can see in some of the.

AB

Pictures that the uh what they started is still there, so they don't follow rules for one thing.

AB

So first it was the groundwork for the plumbing which that probably never got reported, because.

AB

I didn't report it. I just kept an eye, make sure it didn't go any further than that.

AB

Then there was an additional in the back of the barn. Now kenny was saying about degrading.

AB

Out front, I'm sure there was no permit issued for that. I did the uh search through the county.

AB

um To see if any permits were issued anyhow, I didn't get all the responses back from.

AB

That so I really don't know for sure, but the grading was done. I'm saying without a permit.

AB

There is no salt control, the ground is still laying open it drains down into the screen that.

AB

Will show on on the uh the print there so like I'm saying they? Don't they don't fire any rules at all.

AB

And I see it on one video: how how all the the people that come. So I see how nice and.

AB

Serene and quiet it is well that that's all changed. I can't even say that on my back deck.

AB

In the summertime and have a cup of coffee without hearing her music.

AB

And there is one video just a couple minutes long that shows the new concept of the.

AB

um The new churches and everything I would like to play that for you.

AB

If I would be okay, but we can access it, I think it's online right.

AB

um Yes, so yeah, why don't we? I want you to hear the music. I want everybody to hear the music.

AB

Welcome to my world yeah, let me let me I want to give everybody else a chance, but.

A

um Because we're out of time, but we can access. Obviously we can look online and we can listen.

A

To that and look we can we hear you that's why I'm we're here? I'd rather not. I mean we'll check on.

A

Our own, but I hear you I want- I want everybody there to listen to it. I want everybody here to.

A

This now I I want to keep the hearing moving forward, so we've got other things to do today.

A

This is important I want to make sure I hear from everybody, so thank you. Anyone else want to speak.

AC

My name is judy gear. I live at 2300, bachmann valley, road and I did email. My concerns to.

AC

You I just want to emphasize the the noise I've been out on my front porch at eight o'clock in.

AC

The evening just reading- and I can't so it's you know all hours of the day- the traffic I'm not sure.

AC

Who waived um you know with with this property and this church, but the traffic is atrocious,.

AC

I've faced the the driveway of the church and I've had people who pass it coming from.

AC

Westminster stop in the middle of the road when they see they've passed it in front of my house.

AC

And make a three-point turn they've come into our driveway they've done some damage, but.

AC

The the cars that do make the turn coming from westminster, the traffic behind them.

AC

I I can't tell you how many tractor trailers have laid tire, and you know swerved around.

AC

um That is a huge concern coming out going 5-10 miles an hour.

AC

um You know everything else that people have said. um I agree with 100. um You know my husband and I.

AC

Love bachmann valley, road and um it's changing and that's unfortunate. Thank you. Thank you, sir.

AD

My name is johnson maloney. I live at 2047, bachman valley, road.

AD

Everything has been said, pretty active so far a little bit repeating in a way. I keep hearing that.

AD

um It is an agricultural property and they're allowed to have a religious.

AD

Building and so they're exempt from any taxes or anything like that. What I don't understand.

AD

Is why they're building a whole a community of buildings, they already have a religious building.

AD

So what is going on is that hey, this building is exempt because it's religious buildings and.

AD

Dental religions, the buildings that don't cause are religious. My grandfather was a minister.

AD

So if I declare my house as a religious building, the might stop paying taxes and property taxes.

AD

And all of that, that's my question. Look into what buildings are the one that's exempt for.

AD

Religious which buildings or not through these buildings, they're not to be taxable at least.

AD

I mentioned several times that they've violated many violations. Where did they ever pay a single.

AD

Penny and fines. What would happen if I violated something uh I don't know what's going on here.

AD

I got one last thing close your eyes pretend this property is right, adjacent to your property.

AD

Put some constraints into this to make sure that hey, if you're, living right up against.

AD

These people, how would you vote? Thank you. Thank you. Would anyone else like to speak? Yes, ma'am.

AE

My name is marion dell. I live at 2401, bachmann valley, road, my husband, francis and I are.

AE

Here today, because our two farms adjoin this property, we have had an ordinate amount of trash.

AE

That blows onto our fields that must be picked up before we plant crops or harvest crops. We.

AE

Have also had numerous people that come to visit the church come over onto our property.

AE

Without permission, I had one come all the way up to my back porch.

AE

Without permission, they walk across their fields, they come and sit and watch what we're doing.

AE

In our yard, we also listen to the music, the noise, the traffic. My own family has almost had several.

AE

Accidents because of the driving and the stopping and the pulling out in front of vehicles, so please.

AE

Please consider all of our concerns. Thank you. Thank you. Would anyone else like to speak.

A

I think this gentleman would like to make some comments.

AF

My name's george danburys, I live on 4174 wine road about a mile away from that place and the music.

AF

Is awful? I mean four o'clock in the morning you're here and that to me is [ __ ].

AF

And uh I ain't here to shut the church down, but they don't want, they don't want to obey our laws.

AF

They just do what they want and I don't understand why the county ain't.

AF

Keeping them under control, I mean they just do what they want. The guy. The guy was right. You know.

AF

I'm saying he'd never put new grass seed, then I work instructions. I know and they're putting.

AF

The grass seed or settlement control down when they did that, and that was the state right away.

AF

I believe what they did and they're talking about this parking lot, where's, that water going to run.

AF

You know you're going to have settlement ponds, you got to have all that stuff and and nothing.

AF

Said about none of that, so that's basically all I got to say, but it the traffic's awful me and.

AF

My girlfriend that t-bona guy, they must think if you're on, if you're on mountain valley, road.

AF

You got to stop, they got the right away, I mean they just come down, come out.

AF

Any new stop sign there, and that sounds way too big. What they're saying I agree with you that.

AF

Thing's got to be small and then our churches. We got to have stainless steel to serve food.

AF

They don't I what I hear. I got people friend to go back there. They get. They.

AF

Got the meat laying there of blue flies on and stuff what.

AF

Because they do that, and ask of me they're going to do it here. What's good for us is good for them.

AF

And that's basically, all I got to say thank you. Does anyone want to speak, who hasn't spoken yet.

A

You're welcome to come to the microphone if you haven't. If you haven't spoken already spoken, I.

W

Appreciate you paige, I just thought of ambient white yeah. I mean we raise that issue. Of course,.

W

Now we're aware of the issue, certainly any other comments. Yes, sir, if you want to come back.

AA

A lot of these questions, if we're going to have another meeting like this. Yes, that's what we were.

A

Talking about a special report, so they'll come back with um a plan that addresses these issues to.

A

The extent they're going to address them and then we'll have representatives so that we can ask them.

A

These questions: well, we filled out the register we'll get a letter in the mail for that or.

AA

That the meeting, what date the meeting will be, you should get notice of the meeting.

A

Yes, okay, thank you.

A

Come to the microphone, if you would, because no one will be able to hear you.

AB

You might just think this one's a little silly, we're talking about signage, the signage for the.

AB

For this meeting here, I think, ought to be two-sided and it'll ought to be out close.

AB

To the road, so the public can see it. It's back, 50 foot off the road and it's blue, and you can't.

AB

See what it's saying at all, we appreciate that, yes and there's been another comment about you.

A

Know, there's a benefit to a big sign which is maybe helps people yeah, not the church.

AB

Needs to be big, your sign needs to be bigger, sign needs to be small, the person needs to be.

A

Better, that's right, yeah! Thank you. Well, thank you all for your comments today. We appreciate.

A

It I hope you understand, we've heard what you said. We understand we're taking all these things.

A

Into consideration gents, I I do have a question. I've heard um from several about overnight guests.

Q

What um what conditions are that? Is that something that they are automatically allowed to have, so I.

S

Think that'll ultimately come down to the office of zoning. So as mentioned a church or a religious.

S

Establishment is a principal permitted use if them staying overnight ties into that religious.

S

Establishment or that principle permitted use, I'm not sure we could tell them. They can't do that, but.

S

Ultimately, that's going to have to be the call of the zoning administrator to potentially opening.

S

A zoning investigation and find out the nature of them staying overnight, but I will note that.

S

Having a residence there, I I don't see why they couldn't also use that property as as a residence.

E

It seems to me that there's a component to this operation, that is, a religious retreat.

E

And not necessarily uh what we would and again, I'm not saying that's good or bad. I'm just.

E

Saying you know when you there's a difference between having a a religious woodstock, you.

E

Know and having uh worship, services and so and again I you know, I'm not a verse to woodstock.

E

um I wouldn't want to. I wouldn't want it to be in my valley and that's where I think.

E

These folks are phoning in so again. I think I just kind of want to understand more about.

E

um And linda I'll say I appreciate you pushing the information. You know from a that. You sent to.

E

Us concerning the culture stuff after stuff, that's a technical term. So um again, I I just kind of want.

E

To understand a little bit more about, um is it three or four times a year when this happens or.

E

Is it weak is it is it is it weekly? Is it? Is it weekly and a wednesday night dinner? I mean what I.

E

Kind of need to understand the frequency of this a little better um and not, and I'm not sure what our.

E

Response is on that right. I mean because again from a zoning standpoint, right uh yeah, I just I.

E

Just kind of need to understand it when I raised earlier, I'm we're here to talk about land use and.

A

Whether the use comports with what's permitted and um giving something a label and then acting as if.

A

You're entitled to do whatever is under that label. You can't call it a church and then have nascar.

A

Races every sunday and say: well, it's a church. I'm allowed to have nascar so and I'm using an.

A

Extreme example just to make a point, but the idea is, I think, part of what we're allowed to do is to.

A

Fully understand the use: does it match up with the label that we're given in terms of what's.

A

Permitted there and then what are the boundaries of that land use as it fits within this principal.

A

Permitted use and the better we understand those things and certainly your comments and.

A

Experiences that you've shared today, they help us better understand those things. There are limits.

A

To what we can do, we're a planning commission we're members of the community just like you.

A

Are we just volunteer our time to do this, but we're members of the community we care about.

A

The community, just like you, do and, as I said at the beginning, we want to. We want to be fair.

A

And balance out these issues, if you were the one that presented an application to do something on.

A

Your property and your neighbors didn't like it. You would want us to be fair and hear all of the.

A

All of the sides to the story and that's what we try to do every single time we get together as a.

A

Commission, that's what we're trying to do here. Your comments are very helpful to us. If you'd.

A

Like to write other comments and give us further descriptions of things that maybe you didn't have.

A

A chance to say today we'd welcome that as well. We read everything we get and we're going to be.

A

Back again for the special report I am going to have to close it down. I see a hand in the back.

A

But I've got to move this forward because we've two seconds I'm gonna hold you to it ready, go.

P

A

Okay, I gotta I gotta move forward. I gotta move forward. I gotta I gotta go forward. I got other things to do today. Yes,.

A

I've heard you I've heard you I gotta go forward. I appreciate your comments. um Can I make one? Yes.

D

Go ahead, man um for these special events do they have to have a permit for a special event.

D

Also, do they currently get permits when they do that? Yes, so they work with a zoning office and.

S

Get temporary um temporary permits essentially to do this, and that is how we come to know how.

S

Many people are there because they have to relay to the zoning office. How many people.

S

Are coming and then work through that process, all right, I'm gonna move. I've got to go far.

A

I gotta exercise my prerogative. I've got to run this hearing in a way. That's fair.

A

Our next item is a recess, we're going to take a 10 minute recess and we're going to.

A

Move on we've got two other site plans to get through today. So thank you all very much.

A

Q

Q

A

All right we're gonna, go on to the next item on our agenda, which is item.

A

15., it's concept, site plan.

A

Case number s19-0003.

A

Roseanne property solar facility.

A

A

Once again graph the floor is yours. Thank you and thank you for the reminder of.

S

What time it is, I was going to say good morning so good afternoon to everybody.

S

David b craft beer development review back before you again with another site plan.

S

And, as mentioned, the next one on the agenda is s-19-0003. The brazini property solar facility.

S

There are a few representatives with me and I will let them introduce themselves.

AG

Good morning john lemmerman with rtf associates, land surveyors and planners with me is alan.

AH

Alan watson, standard solo, director of construction and joshua and the assistant project manager.

S

So what this project is here in front of you for is: they are proposing a roughly 14 acre solar.

S

Facility on this property- and this is before the planning zoning commission as a concept.

S

Plan, so there is no action required, however, with any site plan, the planning commission.

S

May consider delegating approval of the final state plan to the planning commission, chair.

S

So the property itself is located at 5124 cleveland road on uh in sykesville maryland.

S

And so this is the site outlined here. This is washington road, which is maryland route.

S

97., here's liberty road here which is maryland route 26, and then you have queens mill road here.

S

So the property is roughly 71 and a quarter acres and is located between cleveland road.

S

And washington road, which is maryland route 97., the property, is split by a parcel, as you.

S

Can see here which is owned by the power company? There are, I believe, transmission.

S

Lines that run through this parcel here there are two residents that currently reside on the.

S

Property uh one here and then one over here, the remaining area of land is encompassed by either.

S

Farmland or cropland or forested areas, as you can see, from the aerial uh this aerial, although.

S

Having been taken, I think back in 2020 roughly, is still fairly accurate as to how the site lies.

S

There is a stream on the northern adjoining property, which does have a 100 year, floodplain.

S

Designation, as you can see, based on this here and that does encroach onto the subject property.

S

All property road frontage lies within the state: highway administration, right-of-way.

S

For maryland, 97, while outside of freedom's priority funding area, the site is located.

S

Within the freedom growth area, and as mentioned, the property itself is zoomed light industrial.

S

So the western portion of the property, as mentioned, is butted up against maryland 97.

S

The properties to the north and the east are zone agricultural, so this property and these properties.

S

Here our zone, agricultural and host private residences adjoining to the south is a parking.

S

Area that is associated with a potential future distribution center that was approved back in 2009.

S

So, as mentioned what's being proposed, now is a roughly 14 acre lease area that will house.

S

A solar facility, in accordance with county code, solar energy conversion facilities, are.

S

A principal permitted use within the industrial light zoning district and there are various.

S

Constraints that are related to such within the zoon and [ __ ], and that's also within your report,.

S

Access to the proposed site is from cleveland road, and this is via an existing driveway that runs.

S

Back the site right around here and you can see it extends onto the property back to the residences.

S

Here, right to the the end of the forested area, right up against where the crop land begins.

S

The access road is shown, the proposed access road is shown extending from that point there. It is.

S

Down on the edge of the cropland crossing over the bge property and into the gated.

S

Solar facility compound, and so that will be house or I'm sorry that would be surrounded.

S

By a seven foot, high chain link fence for the purposes of construction because of the.

S

Constraints of the existing driveway, they will be adding this temporary access drive, which is.

S

Shown here on the southern adjoining property, the temporary access drive is to be removed.

S

And returned to grass after construction has been completed since the access drives, both.

S

Permanent and temporary proposed a crossing of private properties, so this one crossing.

S

Private property to the south and this one crossing the private property of bg e access.

S

Agreements will need to be established. I believe those conversations have already been occurring.

S

But we will need something finalized with the legal documents before anything is recorded.

S

On july 27 2021 an initial site plan development plan package was submitted to development review.

S

The plan was subject to citizen involvement at the august 23 2021 technical review committee.

S

Meeting one citizen was present at the meeting at that time, but they did not provide any comments.

S

After the meeting, a phone call was received by a nearby property owner who was looking for.

S

More information as to what was being proposed, but they did not voice any opposition to the proposal.

S

The zoning office has insured compliance with the applicable section of code and has approved.

S

The plan, as presented engineering review, has reviewed the plan with the utilization of the.

S

Existing access and will require additional details during the review of the final plans.

S

The bureau of utilities has approved the plan, although there is water and sewer.

S

Within the area, the solar development does not constitute connections to those facilities and.

S

So the existing residences on site also do not need to connect to those facilities. At this time.

S

The carroll county health department has approved the plan, salt, water management.

S

Has granted concept approval? Stormwater management will be addressed with level spreaders to propose.

S

Conservation areas that will wrap around the north side of the facility forced conservation.

S

Requirements will be further addressed during the review of the final plan. Water resources.

S

Will require additional details relating to the stream of budding the northern property line.

S

The plan is exempt from the requirements of landscaping and from floodplain management.

S

And with that, the final site plan will be tested and reviewed for adequacy of public.

S

Facilities in accordance with carroll county code, so to give a better idea as to how the.

S

Site looks now I'm going to go through a few picture slides here. Please note that seems like.

S

I went out on the foggiest day of the year, but beyond the fog, there's not too too much more so.

S

This is standing on the southern property. This is looking back at that parking area, and this is.

S

Standing at that parking area looking into their field, so this is where the proposed.

S

Temporary access easement will be for the just the construction of the facility. uh These two pictures.

S

Here are looking at the permanent driveway, that's currently there. Now, that is, for the residences.

S

Again, looking at the access on the cleveland road, these three pictures.

S

Are various pictures through the field? You can see the transmission lines on this picture here.

S

And these three very foggy pictures um are of the site itself, and this one here is roughly.

S

Where that access drive on the southern property is going to pop out onto so it'll, come through.

S

These trees and then once the construction of the facility has been done, that access drive.

S

Will be removed, and so with that I'd be happy to answer any questions, I'm sure the representatives.

S

Are as well very good, thank you, mr limberman. Do you have anything you would like to add a few.

AG

Things please thank you. um The the property is uh basically pretty ideal for this use. In my opinion,.

AG

It's uh it's very remote. It's going to be it's a pretty passive site and use for the property. It's.

AG

Going to have the temporary construction access, so it's not going to affect the existing users of the.

AG

Driveway and right away, as david mentioned, um and it's going to be low traffic once it's built, you.

AG

Know on the existing driveway, also, which is going to basically be seasonal, maintenance and and.

AG

You know basically very minimal uh visits and so there's no parking or anything like.

AG

That there's not going to be any proposed signage outdoor lighting, any speaker systems to speak of.

AG

um And the storm water management was a because a lot of there's a large drainage area that goes.

AG

Down towards washington road, which is a state highway, that the storm water management, design.

AG

Has been kind of upgraded to handle like a 50-year storm event in that drainage area and which.

AG

Include a dam breach, study and everything else, so I think it's you know going to be very low impact.

AG

On the on the community, the right of ways that david mentioned, the temporary access agreement.

AG

Through the industrial property to the south, there is a ratified agreement from april of 2021, so I'll.

AG

Make sure you have that if you don't have it dave in the file and the bg e crossing they're actively.

AG

Working with dialogue, then we have, it doesn't seem like it's an issue. Obviously, bg e has been.

AG

Aware of this project since the beginning of the pre-concept, um and that's all I have, if you have.

AG

Any questions we're here to answer on them, um ma'am, we'll allow comment in just a minute.

A

The uh is there mowing that takes place on this property. Do the mowers, how do they get access? How.

A

Often does that happen, so the the local murrows would come in on the existing uh gravel driveway.

AH

So think of pickup truck and maybe a eight or ten foot trailer and we mow the property.

AH

Maybe five or six times a year depending on how how tall the grass gets anybody have any questions.

A

All right, uh oh, you would like to I'm sorry. Yes, one more thing.

A

Hold on one second, miss thomas: um if you don't mind, can you make your way over to the microphone.

A

So that people that are watching this can hear you, otherwise they can't, and in the meantime, mr.

A

Zimmerman had something you wanted to add. I just wanted to add that uh it doesn't seem to be a very.

AG

Big public concern for this project, so we would, while we're here like to ask that the board.

AG

Would allow that the chairman sign off on the final construction drawings after their.

AG

Approved versus becoming back to the board for a formal presentation. Okay, thank you. Thank you.

A

All right, and if you don't mind, state your name and address for the record.

AI

Hi, my name is dorothy thomas, I'm one of the owners and stacy regatti back here is also one of the.

AI

Owners from my brother, who passed away at the stony away, the 25th um ken is our original solar.

AI

Guy and he merged in with mike miller, and then they had evidently sold this to this um standard.

AI

Solar company, with my brother, nice approval before he passed away in january now, his two daughters.

AI

Has inherited half or his deed part of the land. Now we've been working very steadily with the.

AI

Standard solar company trying to get this progress in for the community and everybody's needs.

AI

um I'm very happy to have them here, I'm having some difficulty right now with one of their.

AI

um Workers- that's representing them for with me, as he revised this diagram, that you're seeing.

AI

Right now, I'm not actually approving of it. I do approve of it, but they have moved the site. They.

AI

Have revised it, they um removed what my brother and I had signed for were working with them and.

AI

I think they're going to redo the site, moving it back up onto the north south northwest side on.

AI

The economied it down to the southwest side, which is way down too far, it's supposed to be up on the.

AI

Hill back farther there's also a diagram where the electric line would go down on the ground where.

AI

The original my brother and I signed was any tv away from the railway going around the wrap around.

AI

Now they got it out to this new site. Here I was told nine to 11 feet out, which is going.

AI

To go into the farmer's land and there's any problems, I don't want that with the farmer.

AI

So I'm working with the solar people to redo this diagram, I'm sorry! This was bar to this day.

AI

um That george didn't get to with the people and got it straightened out before we got here, but.

AI

um We, the owners, definitely would like for them to be here, but if I'm going to have this headache, no.

AI

So they have to redo the diagram. Get this older panel back up over the hill, where they're supposed.

AI

To be not down on the southwest side of my land were taken up from the farmer's land. I'm a farm.

AI

Girl I'll stick with the farm guy before I do these solar panels. Unfortunately, I have to have to.

AI

Say that I don't want to have to be disturbanced to say they can't do their job. I just want them.

AI

To do the job right, so they have to redo this diagram before ibb willing to sign our deadline.

AI

Is december the 15th with these people, so george was supposed to be working this and he did not.

AI

He did not get with the engineer drafted here to get with how many feet electrical lines out.

AI

And other things, so I want to work with him. I want this to happen for our future, for our children's.

AI

Future, our future and her children who's going to hear this land I'm a retired nurse. I would.

AI

Like for things to happen for the community or family, to leave a legacy for the community to.

AI

Say: hey a good change was made here today, so if we can get with the solar company to redo.

AI

The diagram, the weight, the reason he was and put it back off the southwest or the property, so the.

AI

Farmer is not cut off with his land uses because I will stay with the farmer before anything else.

A

Well, thank you. We appreciate you, that's my importance. I'm sorry like I said I.

AI

Want this to work, we've been dealing with kenny since 2016. Have you not been.

AI

And, of course, he merged in with money problems and want to support. Mike miller, mike miller became his.

AI

Partner then, he had more money problems with this or deal with being so tired with the county with.

AI

The word of works there are so much there near. I don't know why the waterwork is such a problem.

AI

Because it's going to be grass there, then they're going to put marsh down around the fence area. So.

AI

The marsh in the fence area will be a buffer with the grass. Then you have the grass on the outside.

AI

Then you got the wood at the area, it's going down to the streams in the creeks, so why the water.

AI

Works system is giving them such a hard problem. I don't know I think, from from our standpoint.

A

Assuming you work all of this out, this thing is on on the path to go forward. It has been.

AI

Improved already because they moved the diagram up away from father orgasm, where the waterworks.

AI

Is happy right, so we don't need it. We don't want to get down over the hill there. We don't.

A

Get in the way of that the northwest yeah, so I think um you know, hopefully you can work through.

A

These things it comes back to us we're still in the process of it's on. You know, paperwork and.

AI

Working out things with them and no skating, so I think they've got that to deal with a couple.

AI

More days so, okay, well, thank you. Does anybody else all right? Thank you all right. Thank you.

A

um Do you want to um make a motion for the chair to sign up on the final site planner? Do you want.

A

To see the final come back I'll make the motion to allow you to sign off. If that's, okay, with.

D

Everyone else a second okay, so we have a motion seconds to authorize the chair sign off on the.

A

Final site plan: is there any discussion all in favor, aye aye? You want opposed or abstaining.

A

All right that stands. Good luck! Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Thank you all very much.

A

All right, we'll move on to item 16. of our.

S

This is a northeastern supply eldersburg. It's case, number s22-0006.

D

We'll save the tree and keep this one good afternoon. Clark, schaefer 73's main street.

K

Here on behalf of the applicant, I have with me rj klein, who is a regional manager with northeastern.

K

And I have jeff ziegler from clsi, who is our land use consultant very good good afternoon. Welcome.

S

So I noticed mr schaefer did not introduce me so david b craft you're, a development.

S

Review, as already mentioned, I didn't, I didn't, bring him either. [Laughter].

S

On the agenda today is for northeastern supply, eldersburg phone number s-22-0006. uh You are.

S

Already acquainted with everybody who is here, and so what this project is proposing is a roughly 15.

S

000 square foot, plumbing wholesale facility and just like all the other projects on the.

S

Agenda this one is at before you as a concept plan. There's no action required.

S

But if you feel so, you are able to delegate final approval of the plant set to the chair.

S

So the property itself is roughly three and three quarter acres and resides on the.

S

South side of liberty, boulevard adjacent to the existing regional stormwater management facility.

S

So, actually, let me back up here just to make sure everybody's acquainted with where this is.

S

So here's the site outlined here this is london, town boulevard. This is georgetown boulevard.

S

And this is liberty, road, maryland 26.. This is sykesville road, maryland 32.

S

So the property lies in the c3 zoning district, which is commercial high and is void of any.

S

Structures or certain improvements, as you can see, uh this aerial is pretty accurate as to what's on.

S

The ground today there is a stream on the south side of the property, but there is no fema 100.

S

Year, floodplain designations on site, adjoining properties to the south, east and west are all zone.

S

C3 and are either vacant fixed with a stormwater management facility, as you can see on this.

S

Property or host a medical facility, which would be this property down in this area. The adjoining.

S

Property to the north across lemon town boulevard is zoned, light industrial and is comprised of a.

S

Multi-Use building, which you may be familiar with, as it was before you a few months back.

S

All the joining lots are located within the 2018 freedom, comprehensive plan and freedom, growth area.

S

The subject, property and adjoining properties are all served by public water and sewer.

S

So the plan before you hear was submitted to the development review on may 18th. I'm sorry may 28.

S

2022 the plan identifies the construction of a one-story 15 000 square foot, plumbing.

S

Wholesale facility, the parking for the facility, as you can see, is proposed on the front of the.

S

Property with a fenced supply yard resigning behind the building, which would be back here.

S

And this will have gated access by way of this access drive here, an amended plant was processed.

S

To shift the western property line, so the western property line was here and it has since been.

S

Shifted to be right here and this plat has already been recorded, so that is the new property boundary.

S

Access to the site will be by a new access point from london town boulevard, as you can see here,.

S

To provide full movement for traffic entering and exiting the site, a portion of the existing.

S

Concrete median is going to be removed, and that is going to be about right here.

S

Based on projected trip generations for this use, a traffic impact study is not required.

S

Per the dpw department of public works manual, county code states that parking requirements.

S

For wholesale establishment is one for every one and a half employees on the maximum shift or one.

S

For every 1500 square foot of floor area, whichever is greater, the parking tabulation identifies that.

S

The proposed business would need 12 spaces and there are 14 parking spaces shown on the plan.

S

So I'm going to move on to the next slide, so the building materials and colors are.

S

Depicted as a variety of earth tones with maroon accents, the building is proposing.

S

A masonry base that will transition into metal, paneling architectural details are.

S

Shown on sheet 7 within the plant set and also shown on the screen here, a building.

S

Mounted sign will face london town boulevard, with no other signs currently being proposed.

S

There will be a sidewalk constructed along london town boulevard for the full frontage.

S

Of the property there is sidewalk currently located on london boulevard at maryland, 32.

S

And ends at brevard road, and I'm going to shift back here just to give an idea as to what that.

S

Means so here is sykesville road and here is bavar road, so there's sidewalk here currently.

S

The site will utilize both building mounted and freestanding lights, pole lights, which are.

S

Shown as being 30 foot tall are proposed at the new parking area and the supply yard building.

S

Mounted lights are depicted on all sides of the building and have a height ranging of 10.

S

Feet to 20 feet and there is a photometric plan included in the plan set as sheet number eight.

S

The bureau of utilities has granted concept approval for water and sewer, but they are going to.

S

Require additional details for the final review of the plan. The plan will comply with requirements of.

S

Fire protection and fire hydrant is being added on the outskirts of the parking, and so that is here.

S

There's going to be a new fire, hydrant added the building will also be sprinklered as well.

S

Forced conservation for this site was previously completed under a previous development plan.

S

Landscaping is proposed around the proposed customer parking and in accordance with the.

S

Landscaping manual, so you can see, landscaping is shown running along the parking, pier and kind of.

S

Comes down this way and there are various trees that are also going to be included on the plan.

S

The project is exempt from floodplain code. Stormwater management has granted concept.

S

Approval this site will utilize several microbiore retention facilities that.

S

Will feed into an underground stormwater management facility that will be here and.

S

That will that in and of itself will feed into this facility. That is adjoining the property.

S

And according to where the site development plan memorandum from the department of planning the.

S

Proposed land use is consistent with the 2018 freedom community, comprehensive plan, land use.

S

Designation of commercial high, as well as a 2014 freedom, bicycle pedestrian master plan and the.

S

Carroll, county, water and sewer master plan, so it complies with all of those plans and, lastly, the.

S

Final flight plan will be tested and reviewed for adequacy of public facilities in accordance with.

S

Code and so before we move on, I just want to give an idea as to the site layout again, not as foggy.

S

As the last one, but still somewhat foggy here- and so this is the a general idea as to where.

S

The access point will be uh to the new site, so this is looking down london town, this one's.

S

Looking down london town and this is standing on the site looking at the road itself, this is.

S

A portion of the median that is to be removed, and this is standing looking back at the site.

S

There's another picture of the site itself: this is a picture of that adjoining stormwater management.

S

Facility and this is standing across the road looking at this site again, this will be a portion.

S

Of the median that's to be removed, so I'd be happy to answer any questions you have as well as.

S

Representatives here, thank you, mr shape briefly um northeastern has an has a uh to me an interesting.

K

Business model, they are largely wholesale, but they are open to the public. They basically serve.

K

The trade uh and so the zoning administrator being the meanie that he is told us that we.

K

Had to apply for a and I'm I'm being facetious, I I like dave wheaton, but he told us that we were a.

K

Building supply sales yard, so we needed to go through the bza. We said no we're a warehouse.

K

He won um so we so we went so we went through the bza, so this has been reviewed, pretty heavily.

K

um It's it's a commercial use in a commercial zone in a commercial area, so it really. It really fits.

K

Well and uh uh we're going to request, as the last one did, that at the end of this after you've that.

K

You consider uh authorizing the chairs on the final site plan. uh uh I'm not aware of any kind.

K

Of hanging issues here uh and and the staff report uh didn't didn't- indicate any, but we're here and.

K

And uh happy, oh one more thing northeastern has a is, is a real investor in carroll county? They.

K

Are moving from an existing location in the merit industrial park? A quarter mile to this.

K

Site so they can enlarge a little bit and own uh they're doing the same thing in westminster.

K

uh They're moving from the air park across the street onto an industrial zone land in the city.

K

Of westbridge, that's why you haven't seen it. So it's a good thing. It's a good investment in the.

K

Community and uh provides a needed service to the trade as well as some retail uses and we're here.

K

For to answer any questions, thank you. Thank you. It's hard to imagine a better fit honestly, as you.

A

Said, mr schaefer, I mean this is commercial in a commercial I mean this is what's envisioned, it's.

A

Great, uh it just seems to be. This is like the easiest decision. I've seen.

A

All day today, so from my standpoint, I think this is great appreciate what you're doing.

A

um I'll turn it over if anybody michael you just michael michael, has raised in his hands.

A

Sorry no go right ahead. James, um my only question is there are 14 spaces. I believe how.

Q

Many employees rj go ahead, so our facility in eldersburg currently employs four okay.

Q

Okay, I'm good michael sir trying to recall there's another plan before us several months.

N

Back and there was a georgetown road uh impact or extension or widening or circle, or something.

N

Like that, I can't sorry I can't remember all the specifics does that project impact this.

N

Project in terms of access and where the property line needs to be or is so that's a roundabout.

S

That proposed roundabout is to be located here and it has been noted to the developer.

S

Or the engineer, and I believe it may even be shown on the plans that if, when this comes in.

S

um The county may look to close off all the medium breaks along london town. At that point,.

S

The site will only be a right in right out and if they're you're aware of that, okay.

E

Yeah and david, I'm just gonna piggyback on that thought, because that that turn is a blind turn.

E

um And um I mean I've gone down gone forget my own personal experiences, because I've got issues.

E

In need therapy, but I I I'll just say it ought to be right in and right out initially, let's.

E

Get people trained on that because if you have some, if you you've got traffic coming.

E

um Eastbound on this road- and I am waiting to turn into northeastern- to supply and make a left.

E

Turn but I'm going west they're going to be people coming around that turn and I'm just telling you.

E

That that is, I don't know how many feet you've got there. If it's 200 feet, uh that would be I'm.

E

Gonna guess it's it, I don't know, but I'm just I'm just going to ask you guys to really think about.

E

Rather than removing that median, I would extend it and just make it right in right out initially.

E

Because that that's that's, that is a hairpin turn and um and people are always trying to game those.

E

Lights in there you know: do I what I'll I'll stop moving I'll stop talking? I I think that.

E

Median, rather than being eliminated, I think it ought to be extended and right in right out.

E

Initially that way, people get used to to coming to your establishment and, knowing you know, hey.

E

When I leave here, I've got to make a right to get out. um Let's just train people from the get-go.

E

um That that would be my strong suggestion, because, again that that road is a mess.

E

um We had a kid killed a couple of years back on a motorcycle I've seen some other bad accidents.

E

Right through there, so um you know it's it's a problem child for for the the freedom district.

AH

I couldn't address that go ahead, jeff ziegler, so.

AJ

um Yeah, I I will address that so initially, when we were doing our site development plan, we um took.

AJ

Or showed that on there as eliminating a small portion of that median, so we can get full movement.

AJ

In engineering department said that they wanted to make us aware that when they called us, when.

AJ

The roundabouts went in at their two locations that that was going to be a full median and that.

AJ

Would go away due to construction restraints that northeastern is facing building this site.

AJ

With every all the cost of materials escalating, eliminating that median is really up in the air.

AJ

I don't have a final decision from them whether they are just truly going to eliminate it, but we.

AJ

Were planning on leaving it on the plans chances are. It may not even be done because of financial.

AJ

Reasons and and building the site so, but they are fully aware of you, know that being eliminated at.

AJ

Some point in the future, even if it they were to do it, and let me add that I I know from.

K

From being involved in other developments today, that particular area is one of the is.

K

Being heavily looked at not fast enough because it should have been looked at a long time ago,.

K

Heavily because of the roundabout there's other developments that londontown this particular site.

K

Is part of a larger proposed commercial development on that larger site.

K

And it was yeah exactly and- and it has been heavily focused on as far as how the traffic's.

K

Going to work down there, so I know engineering has, has looked at it and will continue to look at it.

K

And and northeastern has indicated, they'll they'll comply with uh with whatever the arrangement.

K

That's ends up being down there and mr schaefer again northeastern's a good employer in the area.

E

We don't going anywhere, please stay, don't want to make it hard on you good, looking building bring it.

E

You know we want more people like you. Thank you. I just from a traffic standpoint. uh Man, that's a.

E

I would prefer to see it right in right out on it. So here's your concern all right. Stephen, do.

T

You have any questions. Anybody else all right. Do you uh make a motion that the chairs sign.

A

Off on the final thing, I'll make that motion that we allow you to sign off on this yeah all.

A

Right, we have a motion, a second to authorize the chair to sign up on the final plan. Any discussion.

A

Favor aye you want to post. Thank you very much. Thank you all very much. I assume there's no.

A

Public comment: there's one gentleman: did you want to comment on this he's? We brought him.

K

Very good, thank you. Good luck um and the last item is general public comment.

A

There's no general public to comment about general things. So that's done and.

A

I'd be happy to entertain the motion that we adjourn I'll make that motion that we adjourn.

D

Oh second, all right motion, second to adjournal in favor, aye aye. We are adjourned. Thank you all.