Carroll County, MD FY 24 Budget Process, 11 May 2023

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From YouTube: FY24 Adopted Budget Work Session May 11, 2023

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https://www.carrollcountymd.gov
Agenda: https://www.carrollcountymd.gov/government/commissioners/board-of-carroll-county-commissioners-weekly-agenda/

A

Okay, gentlemen, let's start it is 1303 and we are.

A

Into an fy24 adopted work session for may 11th, um we will see if this will be our.

A

Final work session, I don't like the sound of that. huh I don't like the sound well.

A

I'm hopeful um and uh I've heard hope is not a cause. Thank you. I was just gonna make that point.

A

So I had to hope is not a course about it, but I am hoping because I don't have all the information in.

A

Front of me, and it's just where we're at so no but who's talking about perspection um a lot of work.

A

Has been done to this date amongst all of us as colleagues, I really appreciate the community.

A

Coming out on tuesday evening, spending about an hour with us.

A

Sharing with them with us and the county and community their thoughts and ideas.

A

On how the budget is being deliberated, and now, it's being uh you know, um developed.

A

I always appreciate when people have the willingness to speak up and let us know.

A

What's what's on their mind, so that was very, very positive: uh may not go all their way.

A

um But that's part of you know our role and responsibilities as well is to take in all.

A

That information and make the best decision we can with the information we have that's.

A

The course of action we're going to be taking um so with that I know deb, you handed us out.

A

A couple of pieces of paper um actions that were taken- I, I guess and then.

A

What what's the other? These are not actions. Now, um that's all behind us. Okay,.

A

Oh, this is from the public hearing comments, got it: okay, okay, first one to announce that today is.

B

Jake's first day, as a budget analyst moving up from all right, congratulations, congrats,.

B

Okay, so yes, you have a little summary of comments were made. Of course, sometimes people.

B

Say more than one thing, but this captures, I think the primary points that were made.

B

um As always, things keep changing as we're trying to do this there's two changes from.

B

The proposed budget they're not really for you to make decisions, unless you say no we're not doing.

B

That but there's increased state funding for a couple school projects. We had to recognize that.

B

And we did talk with the school system about a couple of relocatables changes that they need.

B

To make and the funding we had in place was not sufficient for doing that. We made that adjustment.

B

And you see the current state of our op plan right below that.

B

And then the second page is just a little bit more detail on what I just said about school projects.

A

A

Okay from the discussions from tuesday evening and as much as we've thought.

A

Through over the last couple weeks and few weeks and months in developing.

A

What are some thoughts and ideas that you won't bring forward at this point.

A

Thank you anybody, yes, I would like to revisit a possible one percent bonus using one-time money.

C

To make up for where we cut raises from, and it was 5.55, I think right to 4.55.

C

um And I know bonuses aren't the same as raises, but we don't have any more ongoing money.

C

And uh I just feel like we owe it to the the county employees in cute and- and that includes.

C

The cut we made included commissioner, employee state's attorney circuit court.

C

And and so I would like to see it for that, that same group, a one percent bonus with.

C

One-Time money and- and I think, um there's not enough- there's almost enough left.

C

In 22 for that or not quite, very close, very close okay, so we it was going to say it.

C

Appears we have more than we thought we might in 23, but um we shouldn't have to touch that.

A

Oh yeah, okay. So uh I'd like to second that, if that's the motion you'd like to put on the table.

A

um I'd like to second it and just follow up with a little bit more discussion on it is.

A

You know the the argument of bonuses against using bonuses is extremely valid.

A

um Because it doesn't, it puts a band-aid on on some concerns. You may have, as opposed to a.

A

A um continuing solution that we're trying to establish, but in this case I believe that band-aid.

A

Bridging us to next fiscal year is warranted, um and just knowing that there's positions.

A

That are continuing to be open uh and it's just becoming more challenging. I mean there's.

A

Decision that we're gonna have to make keeping our workforce healthy, more, not just morale, but.

A

Just healthy and and retaining them- and I think that's what this bonus of one percent.

A

Is a gesture to do in that direction? So um that's my two cents on it.

A

um So I have a motion. I have a second down beyond my discussion, any other questions. Discussion on.

C

This and and the only question to make sure I'm correct because we're using one-time money to.

C

Do this, it doesn't affect the bottom line of the operating budget. It will not change that.

B

Because your proposal is to take money from what was left in fy 22, which is one time money.

B

This is a one-time expenditure. The two are not exactly the same number but they're they're close.

D

um How much is left from fy 22? I thought, if I remember correctly, one percent increase.

D

Was 568 thousand dollars yeah, and this is a little bit less because we don't have to.

B

Account for pension because it's the bonus and not a salary, do you have the numbers on.

E

There yeah, um the cost will be 423 000. and the one-time surplus remaining is 520.7. So a little.

E

Bit less than three thousand dollar difference: 527 in fy, 22. 527 left over in fyi 520, 700., yeah.

A

It's right here got it like 26.51 to be exact thanks, yeah and- and I forgot also when I made.

C

The motion, because it's a bonus not a raise the that other money comes out of it right.

F

Deb was on it and what was the the cost of the one percent 523 400.. Thank you. Okay,.

A

I apologize mike, you were, were you cutting mid-sentence? No, I.

D

Know I know you actually didn't, but.

D

I mean we're just say it: I mean we're: raising fees, we're raising taxes, we've reduced the budget for.

D

Ag pres ented the budget for active players in the out years. It looks as though on paper and we.

A

Are using one-time money, yeah, so yeah you're right? um We found a way to spend 25 more million dollars.

D

And we're here on may 11th trying to find a way to spend more money. I just disagree. I think we.

D

Should be trying to find ways to cut money in not tax people, it seems like we're going.

D

To the opposite direction, so I really wish we'd maybe have a little further discussion about this.

C

And I understand absolutely um any other discussion. I guess my concern is that we.

F

Echoing kind of what commissioner garrett had said, you know we really did struggle to get to.

F

A place where we'd balance things and we we've been attempting to to justify the increase in.

F

The recreation tax commensurate with the cuts and the the reassignment of certain funds that.

F

We've made through the course of the budgeting process and while I understand and respect the.

F

Argument that you know we want to try to to you, know, attract and retain quality employees.

F

um You know where do we end up next year? This is a one-time bonus. It gets us through this.

F

Year but we end up next year and and do we end up in the same situation where we have.

F

To try to plug everything with a bonus all over again in order to to meet what we did this year.

G

Okay, anything else. No, I think it's, I think it's a fair comment by commissioner vigliotti. I mean.

H

We're looking at what 520 000 after that's the remaining of 20, is that 23 20 22 22.

H

um Just out of curiosity, what do we have so what's? 23 is what uh 24 million 100 I'm looking at there.

E

um Actually this morning we had said it's close. It's now 33.1, you said 37, but so we have the 33.

H

And we have 520 on top of that, roughly um gotta kind of comment to both vigliotti and commissioner.

H

Garen, um yes, we haven't technically cut ag press this year, but tell that to all the people that I.

H

Got phone calls from that? Most of them aren't even in my district, that support ag pres because their.

H

Concern is, this will be the lowest we've ever had it going into the next year. If we've got 30.

H

Some million dollars I'd prefer to see a million five put back for next year, even though it's not.

H

In this year's budget, I think we need to put our money where our mouth is, for lack of a nice way of.

H

Putting it because if we actually support ag pres and we believe we support ag press, we should show.

H

We support ag pros and I would suggest we take a million five and put it in to next year. Now.

H

Versus one-time money- and I would like to see it concurrently going the next several years because.

H

You know we brought down the ipress staff. Joe had asked them to come down. We had a nice long.

H

Conversation joe had made the point: if we over fund you or extend funding, can we accomplish.

H

More faster, we then immediately turned around from that and we cutter. And yes, we move things.

H

From pocket to pocket- and I get that, but what was the point of having a conversation to see.

H

If we can get to the goal sooner, if that's our true goal, if we're going to leave the out year,.

H

Now it's at such a low limited number. I really just question the movement of that whole process.

H

With that, but then I also to commissioner garen's point: you know we came in one day we're at zero.

H

Magically went from zero to several million dollars that we had to find money for and now.

H

We've gotten back to zero in theory, but you know where this morning we're told about how recreation.

H

Now is looking to be a little less than what was expected. I remember ted mentioned that in open.

H

um And I have some other comments, but I, if you want to go through this motion, first I'll continue.

H

After but I do think, we really need to take a harder look at this budget than just finish. It.

H

Today- or you know, tuesday or whatever day, we think is the cleanest and easiest way to do.

H

It because we all know it's not easy, we all know blueprint is coming. We all have varying opinions.

H

Of how strict and how difficult that may be, but I think we need to not be sitting here today, making.

H

The assumption we're going to be done today, we shouldn't even make the assumption we're going.

H

To be done, tuesday or thursday, or whatever day, we should be willing, we've got the dates. We have the.

H

Jobs, we were given the positions for a reason. I think we need to sit here and try to get this.

H

Budget a little more correctly functional. I have real challenges that were 25 million up over last.

H

Budget not to say that some of those things aren't needed, I'm by no means diminishing the needs and.

H

Requests of anybody, but I think, if we're not careful where the tax and spend commissioners.

H

And I didn't come in here to be a tax and spend commissioner, and I'm not looking for that. And I.

H

Realize that if next year we get there and we have to fight blueprint and blueprint, says raise the.

H

Money and we're stuck in that position to ted's point this morning of hey: you either do it or they.

H

Take it no matter what okay, then, then we do it, but then it's across the board. I don't. I don't want to.

H

Be doing this in this fashion, where it's uh going in with a scalpel trying to play with things today.

B

First, on ag press funding, this definitely will not be the lowest ag. Press funding has ever been.

B

Yeah we've been much lower than where we are now and the other. I just want to remind we. We do have.

B

To adopt by the last day of may right, and there has to be some time between final decisions and.

B

Us being able to put together the ordinance that you have to around okay, I'm aware of that I mean.

H

That's why we had three more proposed today was made in a session, so we have technically still.

H

Have on calendar unless I'm mistaken and I have the wrong calendar three additional dates, plus.

H

This work session, so we have four and if and if appropriate, I just we don't have three well two.

A

Yeah but there were two additional factors: the original dates were the 16th and 18., but the fact.

I

Is added today and then adoption was supposed to be the following, but but the fact is just what you.

A

Know, commissioner, gordon you're saying and I 100 agree, this is our job deserve responsibility and.

A

If it needs to be every day of the week to do we're going to do it and we'll we'll carve out.

A

The time necessary you know, we've we have a model of using tuesdays and thursdays, but you know that.

A

Model can always be moved into a place that we can convene appropriately and do the work so yeah. I I.

A

Agree with you, uh you know we we're gonna. Do this to the task, that's in front of us not to the time.

A

um So I do agree with that: the uh the ag prez piece um it is difficult, putting our money where.

A

Our mouth as we are using, I believe, one-time funds we've allocated for ag press for this fy24. What's.

A

That in 24. in 24 right so so again, it's that it's that band-aid approach, because we don't have.

A

You know we didn't have the consensus of putting together ongoing money for.

A

Ag press so we used one-time funds to put in place to carry it over to 24.

A

um And I apologize, I mean we're, not uh you know, we, we try to stick to uh robert's rules and you.

A

Know do everything we can in that fashion, and we didn't quite do that by even bringing this.

A

Back up onto the table, because the two of us are bringing this up and the two of us are the two.

A

That brought up last so I apologize uh to my colleagues. Maybe I don't understand robert's.

C

Rules or what I thought we were here to finish the budget it is, but robert's rules is simply put if.

A

You put a motion in place and it gets turned down. You do not have the ability to put that motion.

A

Back into play- oh that's probably you're saying I made the motion before so. Okay, that's it's! It's a.

A

Parliamentary yeah, that's my concern. I I think I I do want to address commissioner kyler's motion.

D

It's still on the table and then after that I was going to ask uh deborah ted. If you could just very.

D

Quickly for people who are watching run through the ag press situation again, so people understand.

D

What we did, but I want to be the thoughtful yeah you do have the motion and I was you you.

C

Said you'd? Second, it I I didn't say I was making a motion: okay, okay, no problem. I wanted to bring.

C

It up yeah- and I want to talk about recreation too and ag press is fine with me. I agree: okay,.

C

um It's not the lowest, it's ever been. Whoever said that doesn't know history, but.

C

It's the same as it's been lately and uh I thought, okay, you know I've heard from two or.

C

Three people that we cut aggress and we didn't but but that that's okay and I've, heard a lot of other.

C

Comments so so yeah, but but I withdraw my motion, no, no. I apologize walking away from walking away.

A

From motions, do we want to address this one percent at this time, or is this something it.

C

Sounds like free or opposed to it. So, let's, let's move on I'll, just withdraw my motion. So what.

A

What else wants to be brought up at this time? Is it ag press.

H

um We can start with that. One I've got another one. We can start with that express okay.

H

I mean obviously, we've got it at a million five, which next year would only be what the million as.

H

It currently stands correct. You reduced a million from every year and then added back one time.

B

1.5 into 24., what would it be if we added that back as an ongoing debbie? Can you zoom in or no.

A

I apologize if you can keeping the integrity of it. Okay, thanks is that better yeah? It is thank you.

B

So um and this one's pretty straightforward every year on the bottom line will be a million dollars worse.

E

Do you do you want to go back to the operating.

E

Balance to look at that yeah, if you could real quick, go ahead. So do you want to add ongoing money.

C

For this year's budget, or just the next I'd like to see it just extend it for next year, I think I.

H

Think that, to your point in mind, with the various group of people we've probably both spoken to in.

H

Some cases, I think it puts a little more ease to that community, which you know we support it. So we.

H

Should support it and I would rather put that at ease and somebody sitting there going well. I hope.

H

They put it in in july when they plan to start the budget for next year. Is that a motion? Yes, that's.

J

A motion second, is that ongoing. Is that what you're saying and take away that one-time money.

A

Yes, okay, okay, so have we historically used all the ag press money each year? Yes uh time.

B

It might not always be be perfect, but it does get, but it's what we pretty much use it. Yes,.

A

F

So remove the one time for this year is what you're saying yes.

A

A

I have no to me, I don't even want to look at the bottom line, yet until we hear more.

A

Like this either cuts- or so I think commissioner gordon- wants to remove the 1.5 one-time funding.

F

That we put into this year- and he wants to restore the one million ongoing to.

F

This year, in all subsequent years, well not for this year, but we already have it in for.

H

This year, so I'm saying subsequent years, I'd like to see that not not adding to this year.

H

Yeah, that's what I thought you were saying is: leave this year, believe it as is, but I'd like.

F

To okay, because then okay, then I was confused about what you're, okay, yeah, so you're, saying.

A

This year, keeping the one time yes in the following years, going back reverting back.

F

And that's the motion, that's the motion and there's a second.

A

The challenge is whether we do it this year or in the next five years.

A

We're just adding into an unbalanced budget.

E

Just be we're adding you know, additionally into a nut and bounce budget. So that's.

A

What we're talking about you know whether we build something or provide a service in 2026.

A

That's still affecting our right, our budget, so whether we do it this year or then.

A

uh Morse code yeah no kidding.

E

E

So let me make sure I have this right. It would be keep the 1.5 one time in there and then start.

A

One million ongoing in 20 25., okay; well, that is what's reflected right now. Okay, thanks in this one.

D

I'm I'm not going to use the right terminology, I'm going to call it a.

D

Budget deficit, but maybe that's not the right term, but in fy 26.

D

Is there a short answer as to why that's so low and not that it's low, but that it's way.

D

Lower than the other out years, I'd have to look into the details. Remember but remember.

B

um Revenue changes aren't straight lines like I think, property tax. How much we're anticipating.

B

Each district to go up is different, so it gets uh it changes with recreation. We were backing off of.

B

Where we had been that changes a little bit over time, sometimes there are one-time expenditures.

B

In certain years that aren't in other years, so there are reasons I don't remember them all, though,.

E

Yeah, there is something in particular that's happening. Could it be hiring fire ems, hires or no.

E

um Really, what it is, is we swapped out some um cash for reducing bonds? Yes, we did that in 24 and.

E

25., that's why you're seeing a bigger negative in in 24 25.? If we didn't do that, we'd have a surplus.

E

On the bottom, but in the out years our expenses would have been higher because of debt service.

E

So um and you see the the deficit getting larger as you go up because of the transition, the full.

E

Transition of the fire coming in and just on terminology for anybody listening out there.

B

I would differentiate between a deficit and a projected debt fall. You know a shortfall.

B

A deficit I believe, suggests that you've spent money. You don't have what we're doing is saying.

B

If we project this out, it doesn't work, but when we get there it will have to [music] the.

A

A lot of comments were made on recordation.

A

um From tuesday evening, does anybody have any thoughts, ideas, comments, questions regarding.

A

Recordation, that's one of the big elephants bring up with that that we we looked at at more.

C

More money more surplus from last from this year than we expected um I'd, love to see us not do.

C

Recreation taxes, if there's some other source of revenue that covers what what what did that end up.

C

Being three million three and a half million point, nine three point: nine and again I don't wanna.

C

Just say: let's cut it and figure out this year, because now then next year would be twice as bad.

C

And I do, I understand their passion. I think we need more inventory in carroll county. We.

C

Need to reduce density in carroll county, which nobody wants that in their neighborhood. Well, I.

C

Shouldn't say that um in the westminster area, most kids want that. um I can't speak for the.

C

Rest of the county- I know my kids would prefer their house was about two-thirds of their lot.

C

um But a lot of that would do more for people coming to carroll county.

C

um Now, what I was told, the other night is when developers when builders and developments sell.

C

Lots, the buyer picks up the whole recordation. I don't know if that's correct or not, but um it adds.

C

If you split it like traditionally, it adds about.

C

0.12 percent to the price of a house. I don't think that's driving anybody to another state, but it is.

C

An increase in a fee or tax, which I don't I don't like so I I wanted to bring that up and.

C

Say you know how do we? How do we look at? Is there any way to make up that 3.9 and I I don't think.

C

It's like when we talk ag press or when I talked the bonus, that was one-time money, but none of.

C

Us have talked about. What can we take out of the budget? You know and, and you know is, is if we could.

C

If we could find half of the 3.9 in revenue, is there something that in expenditures we could cut.

C

And I'm not sure I I do feel I don't like raising attacks any kind of tax. I thought recreation.

C

Is one of the softest ones the only people who pay? That is, if you're buying a house.

C

Or selling a house and uh on a 400 000 house, it would go up about 500 bucks.

C

um I'm not sure that's that critical, but but it is raising attacks and I wanted to bring.

C

It up that, if there's any way we could avoid it I'd love to see it. If we can, I still think it's.

C

The best way to get the budget balanced, the idea of can we make it up in another revenue.

B

um A conceptual way: yes, we we can because there's very very little of our revenue.

B

That we know exactly what it's going to be, so I can't sit here and say: nope can't be done.

B

Having said that, though, uh I believe we've given you the projections that we believe.

B

I don't even want to say this. I was going to say that we're comfortable with, but you you know, I'm.

B

Not actually comfortable with income tax. If we up another revenue, we might actually find ourselves.

B

Having to rethink income tax and maybe just have made a problem even worse, so if the board tells me.

B

Figure out a way to change revenues by two million dollars. We'll do something you say: change about, 20.

B

Million dollars- that's probably where I have to say sorry. I can't do that. You'll have to figure.

B

That out yourself, but um I, but I I can't recommend doing it well to commissioner kyler's point. I.

H

Don't disagree with the majority of what you just said. I think we're pretty aligned in that.

H

Obviously we all know economically, the inventories are massively down home. Prices are up, inflation's.

H

Up interest rates are up, you know, commissioner. Vigliotti mentioned it multiple times in the.

H

Past few weeks, people using their tax refunds to buy groceries, we had a former county commissioner.

H

That sat here one year and talked about how his daughter couldn't afford to buy a home in carroll.

H

County because they were too expensive and she had to go over the state line, and that was before.

H

Inflation before all these other issues, I had a conversation with someone recently and some.

H

Of the same people, we all sit in here and I'm not saying we aren't trying to help, but our fire ems.

H

Law enforcement and teachers- I I know of a member of law enforcement right now that can't afford to.

H

Buy a house in carroll county they're, going over the state line now does recreation, maybe.

H

Completely change that maybe to some people, no, maybe to some people. Yes, I mean, if you're buying a.

H

Home and selling a home in carroll county, whether you're splitting or not you're doing it twice.

H

So you know to me the challenge becomes, you know we were at zero. The day before we threw recreation.

H

And we were zero, we ended up negative. Then we were back to zero. um I'm not really philosophically in.

H

A position of where I want to support attacks on a specific group of people. I don't. I know none of us.

H

Like taxes, none of us like fees, it's part of what it takes to get things accomplished sometimes, but.

H

I think the unfortunate thing is, I don't want to target one group of people. I don't want to hurt.

H

That teacher or that educate that firefighter, that ems driver or that uh that person in law.

H

Enforcement and I've actually spoken to several that are moving out of the state because of that.

H

Is that just because of recreation, not necessarily part of it's? The fact that, to your point, there's.

H

No inventory, um philosophically, I can't support this at this point. After doing a lot of other.

H

Research and looking at things not just about recordation we've got major corporations laying.

H

Off 20 of their workforce, I don't want to see carroll county become a place where it becomes.

H

A total bedroom community to your point. If we want to keep young people living here, we need.

H

To make it thrive in a variety of areas, part of it is inventory part of his quality of life.

H

But for me, I'm not going to be able to support this at this point. Appointment and recreation.

C

No, I I don't like that. I don't know what commissioner said his daughter couldn't move here.

C

um I struggle with those comments. um All three of my kids have houses better than I had at their.

C

Age, they did it by renting, maybe buying a condo, maybe buying a duplex working hard and moving up.

C

um Part of the problem with the younger generation today, I'm sure I'm going to.

C

Get emails. They want the house that my kids have as their third house to start.

C

Well, my first, when I could only buy it because I rented out the first floor so again.

C

I didn't have much money and I stayed in carroll county. I think it's it's a choice.

C

It's a choice you have to make and and I'll be honest and- and I told him.

C

You've got you've got a lot of other variables in a house.

C

Through the inspection process, you can have things pop up that cost a thousand or two.

C

Thousand dollars, if 500 makes or break somebody buying a house, they probably shouldn't be looking.

C

And and and it still attacks, I still wanted to bring it up, and I'd still like this to get out of.

C

It but um I I don't it's like you said you know, people are using their tax returns to uh to buy.

F

Food and I feel for that, um if they're using a 500 savings on buying a house to buy groceries.

C

um I'll just stop there, hopefully they're not doing that. um But you know it's it's it's. It's.

C

It's tough and uh um and and I understand um the message we're receiving from uh real estate people.

C

um I don't agree with the message, but I do agree. We're raising attacks my first year.

C

In office- and I had I don't like that right, I don't, I don't think any of us like that.

F

Whatsoever, and and as I mentioned uh in previous sessions, it really does sicken me to to have to.

F

Consider any kind of a tax increase whatsoever. I know that everybody here feels the same way.

F

um But so we savor the sake of argument. Okay. Well, we do not raise the recreation tax this year. That.

F

Puts us 3.9 million dollars further negative, and you know we talk about well, we need to find ways.

F

To cut or to find more revenue, but we have to have something more concrete than just saying: we need.

F

To find it, we need to find it. We need to find it. We actually have to have something tangible.

F

That we can use to to accommodate the the the uh I guess, the rejection of raising a recreation tax.

F

um And and so we end up 3.9 million negative this year, uh at least this moment before the.

F

Balanced budget: where does it put us next year, do we have to do? We have to uh invoke taxes that.

F

Are even steeper in the coming years in order to compensate for what we don't do this year, I guess.

F

That's the challenge that I'm coming up with, and so you have listening to the potentiality.

F

For this, I'm thinking, okay, well, what? What are the projects we assign surplus funding to in.

F

The present and fiscal year 24. uh do we take some of that to plug the gap for this year. Well,.

F

Then yeah we could get away this year without uh raising the recreation tax, but again that that.

F

Doubles the the difficulties that we're going to be facing this summer when we go into fy25.

F

um I I you know, we really are in a difficult situation where you know the trajectory of the.

F

Course of the county, a lot of things between blueprint, fire depart or department of fire.

F

And emergency service there's a there's, a lot that has to be uh taken into account.

F

um And- and so I guess, the question that that we face is okay. Well, if we are going to try to.

F

Not raise the recreation tax for fiscal year 24. Where does the money come from to plug that gap?.

F

That 3.9 million dollars and again my my thought, is that if that's the case and if we're going to.

F

Do that we would have to use one-time funding to do that, which means we have to rearrange part of.

F

The budget, where, with respect to the one-time funding but again we're you know that takes us.

F

From what's from three million dollars, negative uh in fy, 24 to negative 6., negative, seven, really.

F

I mean I I again I I've philosophically ideologically uh you know I do not like.

F

The idea of a recreation tax increase, but you know we're you know between you, know needing to.

F

To adequately pay sheriff's deputies corrections officers, the school board blueprint coming down.

F

The road department of fire and emergency services paying, for uh you, know, quality employees for the.

F

For the county, um the state's attorney the courts, the um the libraries at this point, the libraries.

F

Were impacted by the minimum wage increase um again, I I really. It really does make me sick.

F

To be talking about any kind of a tax increase, but but short of that and short of plugging in.

F

Funding for this year for fiscal year 24, where do we go next year? I mean, I guess, that's that's.

F

And that's not a rhetorical question I mean that's a hard substantive question: how do we.

F

Take the step from from this year to next year, so taking away philosophical ideological other.

A

Ways of thinking through it think through it as pragmatically I mean, and that's what we're we.

A

Have to do right, whether we like it or not, we have to think through this pragmatically and there is a.

A

Significant unknown for the upcoming years with the blueprint the environment has changed. You.

A

Know early on a few years back, we were in a very good position, knowing we did not have to spend.

A

For the kerwin commission, because of where we were, but the environment changed.

A

It wasn't our doing, it was the state mandates and the challenge of meeting those demands. You know.

A

um That environment has changed so pragmatically. How are we going to be in the best position? Do we.

A

Go in a glide path of increasing revenue over the next few years or a handful of years. Do we.

A

Don't go into that glide path and attack it when it hits us. You know in front of.

A

Us and have to react to it. You know so one is excuse, me being, I believe, more proactive.

A

Into a glide path forward, uh as opposed to being pushed into a reactive situation,.

A

um I really would like to say to some of these demands. You know that the state's putting on us.

A

Especially with the blueprint that no, we will not.

A

Do the things you're telling us to do because you're restraining the money, that's potentially.

A

Being given to us in the compensatory education, that's where the legislation needs to come in and.

A

Say, let's open up those parameters to allow us to use those funds, but right now that ain't happening.

A

So they are limiting to how the way we're able to use the dollars um and uh that that's a that's. A.

A

Significant you know concern, and unless that changes we are going to be in a world of hurt.

A

In the in the out years, um you know where it's going to be a signifi, it's going to be a serious.

A

Cliff you know that we're going to either have to climb up very dramatically with revenue or.

A

Jump off the other side and say: okay, what services will definitely not be done anymore in this county.

A

Because years ago, when the county took away, 100 positions and the schools took away 300 some odd.

A

Positions all the services remain the same and I think we're kind of at wit's end at this point and.

A

What services will we not do you know, um and what are we going to hold ourselves accountable for.

A

Saying we're just not going to do this, you know we did it with the coupons with the landfill. You know.

A

That saved us a couple hundred thousand dollars. I think you know um some people were upset about.

A

That but the culture changed and they accepted the fact that they didn't get two coupons. You.

A

Know when they received their property tax, um but there will be services that need to change.

A

If we are looking at not bringing in additional revenue, the record nation to me uh is an approach.

A

To create a glide path and if we don't need any additional, then that's fine, we're done. But if.

A

We do you know we have a path forward on how on what to do um the people I heard from most.

A

Like I think all of us I mean there's outliers, but mostly it was from the realtor. You know, community.

A

um Like you said, the inventory is not large, uh that's out there, but.

A

I I don't like the tax situation um if they haven't been touched in quite.

A

Some time and we've lived through it uh and there's this culture amongst us that.

A

We live within our means and those taxes haven't changed. Everything else is growing around us.

A

And uh we're not going to be able to do the things that people want us to do and have the.

A

Expectations, you know we have a great road system. I wouldn't want to go to pennsylvania on their.

A

Roads I mean truly the the services we provide on our roads and our infrastructure is phenomenal.

A

um Because of what we're doing with our workforce and what we're prioritizing, um I don't like the.

A

Recreation situation, but I think we have to look at what revenue pragmatically are we willing to.

A

Put in place to either maintain sustain or keep the services that are expected in the county.

A

um I don't know we could shut down parks, we could shut down lots of things and they just go away.

A

um I don't think that's what people want uh and I I should probably say too, um you know.

F

I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything, but if somebody does have a potential path.

F

Forward with not introducing recreation to that, I'm open to hearing it, you know I.

F

You know again, we we've done a lot of things over the course of the the budgeting process.

F

Taking money away from certain planned projects, uh you know shuffling certain funds around initially.

F

Taking away some money from ag press cutting the the projected salary increases for employees.

F

um You know we really spent a lot of time trying to to you know, get things to where.

F

They needed to be, and the record aging tax was a. I guess, a last-ditch effort to attempt to plug.

F

The bugger to to you know even out the budget. um So if you know again, I'm open to suggestions, I'm.

F

Open to ideas about where that additional 3.9 comes from um again, the only place that I can.

F

Conceivably, think of at this moment would be the one-time funding that we put into certain.

F

Projects at the toward the beginning of our of our sessions. Well, I guess the question I have.

H

To at least put out there and have us all pose for a second on. Is this we're not maintaining.

H

When we're spending an additional 25 million, yes we're increasing salaries, you know- and so.

H

Forth, which that is in a sense, sort of maintaining we're trying to keep the quality of employees and.

H

And I understand that, but we're adding in a lot of things and I'm not saying I'm for those things.

H

I'm not saying I'm against those things, but we're not really maintaining. Maintaining would be we're.

H

Barely spending anything above and beyond I mean obviously, we all agreed- and I was one of the big.

H

Proponents early on, I said, let's stick to school board in early. Let's see how it really looks.

H

Because I feel at least personally- and I don't know about the rest of you in in some budgets- I.

H

Felt like they were sort of done midway and it was not really. I hate to use the word fair, but.

H

I'm going to use it, but it wasn't really ideal for them when they were trying to plan a budget that.

H

They were going to pass within their own process and I thought that by putting them in early, we at.

H

Least knew if it was going to be tough, we knew how tough it might be if we were going that that route.

H

um So I mean I agree with your point of it being you know: where do we find 3.9 million? I'm not sure.

H

And ted can correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know if I'd call it a cut at this point, because this.

H

Is all proposed? We haven't enacted anything if we were to cut, say salaries from last year, not.

H

That I'm saying we are, that would be a cut. I think we're just currently looking at moving.

H

And maneuvering funds around- I don't just to make a point. I don't think it's really cutting.

H

And you know january 19th we all unanimously agreed to uh strengthen the super majority.

H

Resolution in carroll county- and I know we all believe in that- I think the question is.

H

You know we've somebody said it the other night and I kind of found it a little humorous and.

H

A little intriguing, their choice of words, but somebody mentioned the other night tuesday. They.

H

Have four rookie new commissioners? Okay, call us rookies, but we all have past experiences. You know.

H

Joe you have yours, mike, has his I'm in business kenny's been in construction and business as well.

H

I don't really think there's four rookies, I think there's four people that just bring different.

H

Things to the table, just as commissioner rothstein does, I think to me, and- and this might not work for.

H

Everybody, but we have a proposed budget that we need to finish and joe. You were the one.

H

That came up with the idea and said: let's hit the ground running, let's not wait till whenever.

H

Next year, so what I'd like to propose without making an actual motion? Let's get this one done.

H

But let's look at things a little deeper than we've ever looked at them and that's not anything.

H

Against you know, former commissioners staff anyone, let's really dig deep, I mean you know.

H

Not not making this about this, but we had a building that went from a million five.

H

To over seven million dollars the other year, not criticizing, but that seven million dollars that.

H

Might have solved some of the problems we are looking at today and I'm not going back in time.

H

And trying to play fix it, what building just curious charles carroll, it's a million five.

H

Pole, barn that magically somehow kept getting more expensive and that's not a criticism that anybody.

H

Involved, it's just the facts that that building got very expensive and a very small populated.

H

Community and I think that definitely didn't help us any that's just my opinion, but I think we need.

H

To get this budget done and I think joe to your point, let's, let's, let's dig real deep: let's not.

H

Just look at what's the recommended budget: let's look six levels down, let's really look because you.

H

Know we've all said it, commissioner rothstein said it one of the greatest things about the.

H

People in this community is we get together and we figure out how to get things done.

H

So let's get through this budget and let's get it done and let's do next year completely different.

H

Just my thoughts, how would you do well hold on so because I want to make sure I'm clear.

A

I'm ready to go as deep as you want to go and we can stay here as long as you want to go in depth.

A

As far as you want six levels tell it doesn't matter that one then number two is: what do you.

A

Want to do and think through different next year, because I agree it ain't about rookies.

A

Or anything like that, I was taken back and not appreciative of those type of comments.

A

um But if there are ways to do things, get them out there absolutely and I've brought some of it up.

H

In the previous work sessions I mean you know, we didn't know that we had 400 000 in membership fees.

H

We pay to things, I'm not saying those shoulders shouldn't be paid. Let's deep dive, the budget and.

H

It's and I appreciate all the hard work that staff puts into it, but I don't know where some of these.

H

Departments how these dig down- I don't know any more than the number I'm looking at and that's.

H

Not a criticism, that's just the presentation and it's nothing against anybody else, but to joe's.

H

Point if we really want to start making real headway and trying to make change whether you.

H

Want to do it this year or we want to get through this year and then start immediately right after.

H

Whatever you all want to do, but I think we've got to look at this vastly different than we've.

H

Looked at it before that's just my opinion and, and I agree and and two things one uh somebody sent me.

C

Yesterday's uh baltimore paper to your comment on thinking somebody's going to develop common sense.

C

um The the aib committee and msde can't even agree on reviewing the county's programs.

C

For this year, right to tell them, if they've done it right, much less tell them what they.

C

Ought to do next year right, and so I almost wish somebody down. There would say between covet and.

C

Test scores and the fact that kids can't even pass civics anymore. Why don't we delay this.

C

For a year or two and let our kids recover from being stuck at home. Looking at a computer um but.

C

I see no hope of that, so we're stuck with that and I think like, like we discussed this morning.

C

um The state may not let us not fund it now. Secondly, if we get rid of this 3.9.

C

It's ongoing money and, yes, we can deep dive into the budget, but a vehicle, a building.

C

Any any one-time money doesn't cover this on the bottom line. um We sit here in added positions.

C

That would reduce this. We we sit here and gave increases in pay, although I think in most cases.

C

They were, I don't want to get into national politics and why we have the inflation we have.

C

You know it's uh I think. Last year, commissioners tried to do a good thing to help people step up.

C

And then our economy went to hell and it wasn't really a step up. um You know it's, it's tough.

C

But but if we want to really if we want to get rid of this 3.9, we need to cut positions.

C

um Cut pay, you know, it's, uh like you, say the school system to replace any of their.

C

Money with one-time money doesn't help them, because it's all salaries.

C

um You know and- and I think that's the same for the share for ems for unfortunately, all.

C

Of them, so we've either got to tighten them up, and I think you know we heard the.

C

Rhetorical things I'm trying to substitute words, um rhetorical things that you hear so much of cut.

C

Everybody five percent dude. You know that stuff, that's it sounds good, but it means nothing. So uh I.

C

Think the only way we could get rid of this 3.9 at this point would be cut positions or pay to people.

C

Which I agree, you know we got three more days: let's, let's, let's look at it, but.

C

um We all have different parts that we favor.

C

We've got all grater teeth and cut some of them. If we really want to get rid of this 3.9.

C

That's why I wanted, I thought you'd say: oh yeah, last week everything changed. We.

C

Have another 5 million, you know, don't worry, but you didn't no. So.

A

Again, looking at that to me, I I I understand the impact of culture and philosophy and idealism.

A

When it comes to taxes and we've done an incredibly great job, keeping our you know.

A

Our path in that direction, um but when the environment changes in such a way that.

A

You know um it's gonna, be some blunt force trauma hitting us and if we don't do something and it's.

A

You know I've heard comments. Well, don't do a little bit now and some later just wait. Don't.

A

Do anything now and then a lot later and I'm like oh man, that that's crushing I mean we do that with.

A

Fees and we've done that with fees- and I lived through that and it's just an ugly situation.

A

I you know: uh recreation tax is a tax, whether we want to think it may be a fee, because it.

A

Only deals with people buying and selling homes- it's a tax um we could also go, but but also to.

A

Understand we're in the bottom. Third, even with this increase of recreation fees that we put in.

A

Place of the entire state, so it's not that! That's only true, if you add transfer and recreation right.

A

But we have no transfer okay right. I just I just want to make sure that somebody out there said.

A

That's not right! No, no, that that's true, yeah yeah apples to apples, recreation, recognition, that's.

A

Not true, but recordation, plus transfer, which we do not have transfer, we are in the bottom. Third.

A

And yeah that gets miscommunicated, sometimes on social media and other places when they try to.

A

Do a comparison one to one, but it really is a recreation. It's that piece to recognition.

A

Plus transfer, we don't have transfer, um I uh I I'm just in a you know interesting place, because what.

A

Was in front of us a few years back was fire ems that was like the big bear in front of us.

A

um And it wasn't a herd of elephants, it was just a handful of bears that we were dealing with still a.

C

Bear though it is and that's the problem, it's it's still a bear, and now, in addition to that,.

A

We have that elephants in the room, so we got bears and elephants and they both have to be.

A

Funded appropriately to get us where we need to go and we are in a glide path of hiring and.

A

Doing what's right in fire ems, um I don't want to take any shortcuts on that. We cannot afford.

A

To take shortcuts on our public school system, because I do believe they're trying their best.

A

To do everything they can and that's why they came back to us for that additional funding.

A

um You know nothing was frivolous. That's been asked of us and things that were not as.

A

Higher priority to some were taken off the table pretty quickly, but those that we.

A

Came to and said yeah these are not frivolous asks. You know.

A

um We've made uh clear direction towards them, but in order to establish that we had to look.

A

At recordation we had to look at revenue and it was determined that recreation was the best.

A

uh Avenue to look at um and that's pragmatic, you know I don't like raising taxes. None of us here do.

A

um That's idealistic but pragmatically to govern this county for the services that.

A

They deserve with fire ems, which really was the big bear and still is a big bear.

A

In addition to schools, we got to do something, and I don't want to wait till next year, because.

A

It'll be a steeper climb and that's my biggest issue and we've got to look at our services.

C

um Back the recreation taxes very much affect people buying homes, but people come to cairo.

C

I'm the one we just dealt with, uh I won't say where they're from but a different county and.

C

I said: did you check out hampstead elementary, it's way better than where we're coming from.

C

We're thrilled you know, that's why people come here: the ems, the fire, the sheriff the safety so.

C

Do we want to cut that to help people come here? You know we're. Do we want to kill the product.

C

And- and I don't know- and I I just went through a bunch of pages of stuff- we've added and deleted.

C

And nothing hits me in the face of oh wow. You know this. Let's, let's take this out. Let's undo this.

C

And even some of the positions we added, they might add up to a half a million. So now we only need to.

C

Find 3.4 more, you know, but those positions like with fire ems, I mean, are critical. We sit here and.

C

Said they were important, but you know your point is taken and I can't remember who I was talking.

A

To but it may have been in cowan or accounting, firm and they're a little bit higher price and.

A

People are going to pay a higher price to get a better service sometimes, and we pride ourselves.

A

In safety, security, public schools and quality of life here in carroll, county, maintaining.

A

An agricultural community, so that's why ag preservation is so important to us with a very.

A

Not lofty goal but pragmatical and we're going to get there. um That's been there since 1980 and.

A

We're over three quarters the way there I mean in order to maintain. That is what are we not doing.

A

um Or what are we doing? That's I use the word frivolous, there's, probably a better word to use.

A

um I mean sometimes it costs more to get to the place you want to get to and.

A

You know that's kind of where we're at um I don't know and if we truly don't want more dance, housing.

C

And we truly don't want commercial buildings on commercially zoned ground.

C

um Then the people here are going to have to pay more taxes because we either need to increase.

C

The amount of people being taxed or increased taxes, and um I I don't it's it's the it's hard.

D

So [music] I know there's a lot of talk about fy, 25 and blueprint. I'm I'm able to just focus.

D

On now I I I we just don't know what's going to happen next year, so that's my main focus.

D

3.9 million is less than one percent of this budget.

D

So in my mind, if we can't find less than one percent of this budget to cut.

D

You might have way more to deal with next year when we have to figure out.

D

If we're going to even add revenue or not, we gave some very generous raises on top of some very.

D

Generous raises we're, given the school board 96 of what they asked for, and they can't tell us what.

D

They need next year, and I know that's not their fault, but they don't know. So I don't know if we're.

D

Going to come to a consensus today on what the five of us individually are willing to do without.

D

Cut but it cuts not even the right word, because it's just a decrease in the increase. I don't think.

D

Anybody's getting cut anything nobody's, nothing's getting cut, but I just don't know if we're going.

D

To come to a consensus today, we do have a little bit of time and I emphasize a little bit of time.

D

To come up with less than one percent of a 564 million dollar budget, so we can say we.

D

Didn't raise taxes which I think is important, because next year may be different, whether it's.

D

A recreation tax or whatever you want to call it. I just have a problem with that. We we spent more.

D

Money- 25 million more and- and I was sitting here for those discussions as well. So I was a part of.

D

That, oh, we didn't vote on this budget yet and uh I don't think any of us are really comfortable with.

D

It but we do have some time, so I think I think that's the ask right now of the five of us is to.

D

Take these books home and figure out what we, what we can come back with, perhaps on tuesday, but.

D

I mean again, I just don't know what's going to happen next year and you know if we're in.

D

A position as a board of education. Excuse me a board of county commissioners sitting here.

D

Trying to justify ways to pay for something that we think is going to make our schools worse and.

D

That's going to be something that five. You know each individual of us is going to have to kind.

D

Of come to reasons with and figure out how we're going to approach that, I think there's probably.

D

Some difference of opinion there I think, there's been some discussion about services as well.

D

um You know not to play down the new guy card, but you know relatively new. What's.

D

Happened: the last four years is hard to gauge when you're the new guy, but I think.

D

We're good on services right now. I don't. I think each of the districts are very diverse.

D

But I don't consider it a major issue right now. I don't know if raising salaries, I guess that's.

D

A retention but doesn't help you fill positions that are remaining vacant, uh necessarily not in.

D

This environment, so that that's where I'm falling out right now on this entire budget discussion is.

D

That we, we should be able to come up with one percent of a 564 million dollar budget to cut.

D

And just deal with fy 24 get ready to come back for fy25. I don't have all the answers.

D

Right now, but we've got a little bit of time. uh One specific comment and a general comment on the.

B

You know not raising or raising salaries won't help us fill it's not going to help us.

B

With everything, but it does help us with some. You know the changes we made last year led to.

B

Us filling some positions that we hadn't been able to fill hasn't solved. All of our problems.

B

Yeah, I I think you know if we, if we don't raise salaries, I mean we have to expect that it is going.

B

To have an impact on our ability to fill at least some positions, then, on the idea of finding places.

B

To cut if the board wants to say how do we, how do we dig into this and and find expenditures to cut.

B

um I would suggest, rather than you all going home and thinking about this individually, that we stay.

B

Here and talk about possibilities. Well, you've got all of us in the room because one by one, what's.

B

Going to happen is you're going to say: oh, we could cut something here and then we're going to say no.

B

You can't cut that or yes you can, but if you do, you need to consider this and you just won't have.

B

All that available, I had had a commissioner once who took on that effort once and he came in with.

B

A balanced budget that the entire budget office spent an entire day going through to say here are.

B

All the problems with with what you did and why it doesn't work, and it's no fault of your or of.

B

Yours, but you almost certainly will run into the same problems. So I I understand what you're saying.

D

I'm not suggesting we all get our own spreadsheets and go home and start doing that. I think we know.

D

Where the big rocks are, and the smaller rocks are I mean, but to your point, about the the salary.

D

Increases we are raising salaries uh right now, we're at four and a half plus the recommended of.

D

Was it three or three and a half I mean we're, not no, it is four and a half four and a half, so it is.

D

Four and a half I was just saying: if we don't do salary quickly, okay, well, I was, I would not.

D

Suggest not doing that, but the magnitude is is what's in question and their additional salary.

I

Increases that have been authorized. You know in this list for those other agencies, above the form.

D

The the the um state's attorney, the sheriff, the courts and the public library and the community.

F

Deb, could you bring up the list of I'm sorry, commissioner, were you no, I just well again.

D

I think that's our challenge. We may not all agree and.

D

You need three, you need three votes to pass a budget. Could you bring up the list of the.

F

The one-time funding, for example, the the parking garage pfas, the piney, run dam that that sheet.

E

The uses uh yeah that we put the one-time funding yep. Okay, thank you.

F

So I'm going to offer it out again that if you really want to avoid raising recreation.

F

Tax rates this way- and we need the four of us to- we need four of us to agree to.

F

Raise the recreation rates and it does not look like we have that right now,.

F

The most straightforward way to do this without going into the pages and- and you know going.

F

Through elongated discussions about this, we have a couple of things right there that we might be.

F

Able to to pull money out of to plug the gap for this year. You know I I've already stated.

F

That that I'm sickened to have to consider the the raising of any kind of tax rate whatsoever.

F

Even ideology and philosophy aside, it sickens me even from a pragmatic stance. It it disturbs me.

F

But if we are, if you really do want to try to get through this year, without raising anything, then.

F

I would submit that this is probably going to be the easiest and the most direct way of doing that.

F

Maybe, instead of the 9 million for the parking garage, we do six, uh you know. Maybe we eliminate.

F

Pfos altogether, because we don't know what that's as a risk, because it's going to cost us something.

F

We don't know what it's going to cost us, but for this present year we eliminate that completely.

F

That takes us closer to getting us where we need to go same thing with the piney run dam right. I.

F

Mean commissioner garen part of the reason why we we cut that, because you had a very, very.

F

Very knowledgeable explanation that we really didn't need everything that we had there based.

F

On construction estimates, you know we could take a risk and eliminate what was what we set aside.

F

For that completely, you know we we have options to plug the gap, but again that gets us the next year.

F

And and we're faced with even more even more uh difficult challenges next year, a couple of things.

A

Once yes, we do have a vote that has been put in place regarding recreation. That is right now.

A

Done as far as a developed budget, we can change that, but we do have a four to one vote.

A

Question, though, when we started this first meeting, some things were voted on some things.

H

Were not put in that first initial meeting, all the all the votes were determined not to carry.

H

Weight right so that so yes, there has been a vote, but the vote is not a standing vote. Okay, it's not.

H

A functional vote talking about voting, just let me let me so. We've been pushing this forward.

A

Having our votes moving forward on how we're allocating the dollars into the budget, we had.

A

A vote regarding recreation, taxes and the first vote was a 5-0 vote and the second vote was a.

A

4-1 vote their votes for placeholders they're, not we're not finalizing a budget through these votes.

A

These votes were, to put these, you know, dollars, expenditures and revenue in as placeholders, so.

A

That's what we've done so when you say we haven't had something: no, we have now we can change it of.

A

Course and change a different placeholder. um We haven't had a vote yet because it was brought up.

A

Regarding ag preservation, the 1.5 one-time dollars and then one million ongoing from fy 25 forward.

A

There was a motion in a second on that, but we have not determine whether that is something that we as.

A

A you know, as a group want to move forward with, so if we want, we can kind of back out to that.

A

And either make a decision as a placeholder. Is that what we want as a placeholder at this time.

A

Since we have a motion, we have a second unless those have changed for what for putting 1.5.

A

Million one time for fy24 for ag preservation and one million ongoing from fy 25 forward. Oh.

F

Yeah, that's the weather outstanding. That was the recommended uh motion and you second yep.

C

And- and I fully understand that- and I think I agree with it, um but we want to take out 3.9.

C

Million so we're adding a million um I just went through and and some of the things you mentioned.

C

Are one-time money so it doesn't help this 3.9. I went down if we take everything extra we gave to.

C

Carroll community college, the library, the courts, the sheriff's office states, attorney's office.

C

And uh cc visa: um that's that's a hair over half, that's 2.2! So we still need another million. So.

C

Okay, now do, or do we really want to take? Do we want everything we gave them back? Well, my.

A

Question is: do we want to address ag preservation? First, that's what I'm saying we can, but my problem.

C

With it is if we're trying to cut money, so the first thing we do is at a million. That's. Why and.

A

I'm full for ag press, you know you know yeah for coming years, but we're talking about the.

A

Firstly, that's why I was holding off on a vote on that, because there's a whole lot more discussion.

A

Like you're saying so, but um but I brought up when joe you mentioned about the the taxes.

A

No, there was an actual vote in arizona a couple work sessions ago um and we can change it. That's.

A

No, I mean, I won't say no problem, that's you know nothing. This is all placeholders at this point.

A

But you know, like you, said, we're adding expenses with ag prez.

A

When we're trying to cut expenses- and I'm all for that president, have been from day, one.

A

You know so I'm going five years this and I've been pushing. I press from day one on.

A

Its importance and I have no ag prayers in my district, but it's the importance of this county.

A

And charles carroll, you mentioned, I think, was 3.5- was budgeted, not 1.5. No, it's hard. No! It.

H

Was originally 1.5 because it was a it was a 1.5 million dollar pole barn. It was capital, one 3.5.

F

Well, let's call a vote on restoring money for future fiscal years to ag perez, because we're.

F

So motioned in second right but we haven't, but then we can get back into the discussion about.

F

The recreation taxes I think that is a separate subject that we're on so, if that's what you want.

A

To do and that's fine any other discussion on that, I just think it's a bit, unfortunately premature.

A

Because we have a lot more but, like I said it's a placeholder, okay, I got a motion. I got a second.

A

Any other discussion on this all in favor aye against aye, okay, so we're back to the recreation.

F

Tax now, if that's what you want to address, if we want to talk that, can you take 3.9 ongoing.

C

Revenue out of the budget- and let us look at the bottom lines, because next year is now 7 million.

C

Before we talk about blueprint, I think right it'll be just I think, just under seven. I think.

B

C

You guys are patient and quiet [laughter].

K

I've noticed that maybe just quiet.

A

We used to sit back glad they're, not sitting up here, didn't they, I feel like.

A

They were sitting back there last time I used to sit over there is that where they were okay,.

A

I like them there, one year they were back there. No, they were back here over here because I remember.

A

Asking each one of you, your degrees or whatever, where you're from yeah, but you were back here kind.

D

Of makes you think, they're in charge when they sit up there. I like it, maybe that's true yeah.

E

Reducing our general fund.

I

For the out years, that bottom line still has the million dollars in there for the so to speak. Extra million dollars for that group. Yes,.

E

Oh, so do you want me to take that out? Okay, so I put in their quotes the word extra million dollars.

E

But it was, it was devoted, so yeah we'll keep it in. Oh, is it yeah? We voted for it in sorry. So this.

E

Is what it would look like if that million ag press is back in and also the recreation.

E

um It goes back to five dollars per 500.

A

Okay, so before you do that, well now, don't don't touch. Anything just is that this is that.

A

The consensus of the group right now to putting recordation back to five and then working forward.

A

From here I'm just saying: if we're going to talk about it, let's, let's look at the bottom line.

C

And okay, we can okay, let's get rid of it. Unless we're gonna cut three point: eight, I don't. I don't.

A

Disagree, I just want to make sure we're all yeah. I'm not saying I agree. No, I'm just saying we're.

A

All on the same sheet of music, seeing what we see in front of us right, that's the picture. This is.

B

This is just a collaboratively right now: it's not a collective budget right now. It's just trying to.

A

So again, I would humbly submit that if we are interested in bridging the gap this year, we get.

F

Rid of anything we've set aside for pfas, we take something out of the parking garage and that will.

F

Allow us to hobble on if the decision or the the will of the majority of the board is to.

F

Move ahead without a recreation tax increase, but then again you look at the bottom line for 25. and.

F

That's even that this is before additional agency requests before the sheriff's department before.

F

The courts before the library, before anything else that annapolis throws at us as well as blueprint.

A

We've done that in the past, where we've used one-time money to paint a better.

A

Picture across the years, the challenge is really what you're doing is you're masking.

A

The situation right, as opposed to looking at the ongoing dollars, and it's only taking about.

A

Three or four two by fours from ted on my head to figure this out, but not using one-time funds to.

A

Salami slice, so I I really recommend not going in that direction. Oh, and that was something I.

F

Argued against earlier too so yeah, so so the uh the parking garage is any of that ongoing money.

C

Is there debt service in there if we cut that? Does that save anything from this bottom line.

B

We had that all as cash right- that's right, half and half did half and half yeah. So there's.

B

Okay, and of course, if we build a garage, there will be some ongoing costs associated with it.

C

But there's none in here yeah! Well for half of the debt service, there is okay for half.

B

Of the half of the cost is debt service. So yes, so what's that see that 225 889 yeah.

I

B

What what number of the row is that uh row 85.

C

So nothing this year, nothing right just because we won't be spending for a while.

C

Timing of it so so I understand what you're saying, but that doesn't help right.

B

And well, there are several of these projects. Well, we don't know the cost. Yeah we've already.

B

Introduced a couple of them, we could reduce this this too, but I don't believe that that's.

B

Actually going to save us anyway, it's just gonna look like we're saving until we not.

B

We're not but but there is ways to cut back on ongoing dollars like within dpw.

A

Because we've done that before now, whether we want to do that again is a different story. But we have.

A

Done that before well, not really we reduced it, for I think we reduced roads for three years right. So.

A

The ongoing cost continued into the future. We just saved money in in the short term: okay, okay,.

A

And that's you know, that's just one more way of making the short-term.

B

Work without really affecting a problem; okay, so what's the bottom lines again,.

G

Negative 3.8 million so.

C

So every year is bad. I was thinking 26 and 27 were lower than that and that's with keeping recreation.

A

As is today at five, that's what that is. 26 was a small positive at one point.

B

We've just moved away from it now and we put the 3.9 back. It looks okay, yeah.

A

Out of, what's being asked,.

F

Well, I think it's I don't know whether or not anybody who may be watching this.

F

Can see the numbers but I'll read them off, because I think it bears mentioning fiscal.

F

Year, 24 without recreation, tax increase were almost negative. 4 million negative 3.8 fiscal.

F

Year, 25 or 6.6 fiscal year, 26 were negative. 4.3 fiscal year 27 were negative, 9.4 fiscal.

F

Year 28 were negative, well might as well be negative 15, negative 14.9 and fiscal year. 29.

F

We are negative 19.3 million dollars and if we went further out, that number is growing right. So.

A

With and that's without blueprint, taxes that we had put in it would zero balance.

A

Fy24 but we would still be in negative 25 forward, not nearly as significant but.

A

Still not in a best place, 20 26 had a little money on them. A little bit money right was it like 600.

F

Or something I think 300 but then what's a million dollar increase in aggressive turns negative.

F

Thank you. That's right because we're we added the actress into it.

A

um So what services? Because tom you said, you had a list, what what else you want to talk about? I.

J

Didn't say I got a list. I said I had a couple topics which we've already talked about. So okay.

D

Okay, I found some rocks. Some are big, some of them are small yeah.

D

I think we need to look at the board of education budget again and consider taking.

D

Out reducing it by rib, while reducing the increase by 1 million. Because again we just.

D

Don't know what next year is going to bring. We need to keep our options open if we think it's.

D

Going to be as bad as it's going to be, I think we can make a sound argument that we need to.

D

Again, keep as many keep as much available funds for next year as possible.

D

We revisit the increase again. I I want to give people increases I'd love to get an increase. I.

D

Think there's a lot of people on the county that would love increases, but 4.5 seems like a good.

D

Number, I think 3.5 seems a good number as well, so we reduce that- and you know you mentioned public.

D

Works earlier, I I'm going to suggest deferring that georgetown boulevard extension at least a.

D

Year until we have a better idea of what's going on with that development situation back there, I'm.

D

Not suggesting not to do it, no, I I know, but I think that gives us another half a million.

D

Dollars so I just rattled off a little over two million dollars and I use the term defer.

D

Again, we've got to make we've got to move some rocks yeah. I just moved some.

D

Rocks I'll probably get some thrown at me too, but that's okay. So let me talk.

A

Directly to this, so the board of education you're, seeing going from 6.2 to 5.2 that.

D

Is that five? Yes, yes 5.2 in the additional- and I think it's important to mention that's.

A

Right in additional traditional funding, that's correct, so they asked for 6.7. In addition to what.

A

Is being proposed and we got to a point to giving them 6.2, your recommendation is 5.2.

A

From that- and I understand that and don't disagree may shock you for me saying that, but.

A

I don't I mean we got to get it from somewhere, and that was my original um proposal. The fact.

A

The the understanding I had with the additional 6.7 was not focusing on blueprint itself. It was.

A

Focusing on what is necessary for ccps to do their job now with positions and other things.

A

So that's why I was like okay, if that's the case, let's, let's at least get them to where.

A

They need to go before blueprint even takes effect. That was the argument they were making.

A

That's why you know every time I would ask okay prioritize this list of whatever it was. Let's say.

A

There's a dozen things uh superintendent would say that is my priority. It's not one above the.

A

Other that's the bulk requirement, so I'm all for trying to get ccps everything they can, but.

A

um Getting to 6.2, I felt was definitely uh uh you know, a goal almost met and understanding going.

A

Down to 5.2, maybe reality, um so that's that as far as georgetown boulevard is that one-time funds so.

A

It's it's one-time funds for georgetown, so it's not affecting this and georgetown boulevard.

A

Honestly, when I brought georgetown boulevard uh up a few years back or whenever it was, it.

A

Had nothing to do with the baby property, it had nothing to do with the expansion of that large.

A

Property that farm property, it had everything to do with the danger of that curve to making that.

A

Into a circle, it would allow for an extension to go into the baby property when developed years.

A

And years down the road, we're not I'm looking for immediate effects of safety, I mean, besides my son,.

A

Tolling his car there, a lot of people have totaled, because it's just a very, very dangerous uh curve.

A

It's a hairpin, so that's why I want a circle there um and because of the through traffic.

A

um Those people go from 26 to 32 in that direction, so that that's why that is, but it was not because.

A

Of future development, to be honest- um and I knew it was one-time funds and then the the third thing.

A

You mentioned just what was it I'm trying, so I had gone back to salaries, but going back to the.

A

Georgetown boulevard issue and again not to not to not to have a debate with you, because I think for.

D

People watching you know the commissioners, we we show deference to districts, you know that's.

D

Commissioner rothstein's district yeah, I do feel uh a bit of a a closeness to that particular road.

D

Because he used to live in sykesville, so I know exactly what you're talking about, um but uh it was in fy25. That's when the some of the some of those funds really hit hard and.

D

That's what I I know most in a way, I'm really suggesting is that if we defer it for a year.

D

We're not looking at the really big costs for fy25, which is almost 2 million dollars so but yeah. I.

D

Had mentioned the salaries yeah so from four and a half to three and a half again for people watching.

D

um You know nobody wants any of their stuff cut, but you've heard us ask each other on.

D

Camera in front of the world: well, what would you cut right? Well, I guess we should be asking.

D

Some people the same question if they're upset about what they're, seeing which I get.

D

You're not going to make everybody happy, and I've already mentioned before. Sometimes you.

D

Get what you need, but you don't always get what you want. You know. So what will be cut.

D

So uh but those are my three rocks if you will stay away from, I want to stay away from salary.

A

Right to second, okay, the other two um are important and it is very difficult with the.

A

Board of education um decision, uh but we may have to go in that direction and that may.

A

Be a large chunk that we're going to end up doing um the georgetown boulevard. There were.

A

Decisions made um north carroll high school panther plex charles carroll, community center.

A

In different districts for projects- um and I was looking at the again quality of life and.

A

Safety, so georgetown really had and ridenour had a significant quality life and safety and.

A

Right now, because there's a lot of elderly coming from nell's acres in that area, that.

A

Feed right into liberty, which is very dangerous, and I couldn't convince state highway to put a.

A

A light or anything uh near there so we're looking at alternative ways to mitigate that.

A

So but georgetown yeah it had everything to do with uh safety. It had not not to do with.

A

The development that and just like you said for everybody, listen, there is no development.

A

Happening on the beta property right now, it is not as far as I'm aware under any contract, so.

B

The georgetown project is funded with prior year surplus. So if we take this project out, arguably.

B

The funding should come out as well. It's one-time funding for one-time use. It really wouldn't.

B

Stay to fund ongoing costs, so that would be a no impact to the bottom line. Right.

A

Yeah, I would ask to keep that in the board of education.

A

I mean argued, or an argument can be solidly made to uh bringing it down to 5.2 or somewhere.

A

Between I mean 5.2 and 6.2 nobody's, nobody can accuse this board of not paying attention to the.

D

Carroll county public school system- that's all we talk about right now and we're talking about.

D

Blueprint most of the time which we don't if we don't have a million out, we probably cause their.

C

Unions to go to impasse, um 83 84 of their budget is pay and we just killed them on negotiations.

C

So we've actually asked the court of ed and that's exactly again, we, our our quick budget, analysts.

I

Asked the board of ed because they adopted their budget last night, what impact it would have if the.

I

Board and that's exactly what they responded, that they would have to go back to negotiations, and it.

I

Would probably lead- and it could possibly lead for newer commissioners on the idea of impasse.

B

um If we can't get to an agreement, we in a very broad way can declare impasse, and this goes to an.

B

Arbitrator who makes the the decision- and they do not have to consider our budget situation.

B

I'm not aware we've ever been there, while I've been around other counties have been up against it.

B

So, who knows it would happen, but uh certainly should be in our minds. It's a frustrating piece.

A

That they do their budget outside of the cycle. We do our budget all right, so I guess I have.

D

A lot to learn so you're telling me the million we take out would be directly offending directly.

D

Affecting salaries, that's what the board of education just told us! Well, I I don't think.

B

We can definitively say that, but if going back to what commissioner kyler was saying, if the school.

B

System's position is all those other things are going to happen. Then the logical extension of that.

B

Would be it would affect the the salaries? That's not a choice, we're making, though no no, but I'm.

C

That's just the fact that if, if all their energy costs go up, they pretty much got to pay that bill.

C

um But yeah this is, this extra was mostly salaries and it would be the entire million.

A

Yeah, I think so well or or if, if you average out the budget, eight or nine hundred thousand.

C

Of it, you know it's it's. uh We have no way to answer yeah. Your question. I mean.

B

There were, there are things on that list. Well, you could, you could live, but no, I'm kidding.

B

There are things on that list of what would we do with the money that arguably they couldn't.

B

Make a different decision: we don't control this we've already been told next year. We've got to.

D

Come up with money to fund the starting salary of every teacher in the county at sixty thousand.

D

So that's that's a pretty big jump too. So now we're talking about just a million in fy 24. We.

D

Can talk about millions in fy25? I yeah we've sort of a rhetorical question, but it's we potentially.

B

Have a very big problem ahead of us, but it isn't our problem yet because the state has.

B

Not said carroll county, you need to come up with more funding, we're just looking ahead and saying.

B

This is a likely outcome. You're right I mean they did sit. You know they did say that at one point.

D

um I don't know if a lot of us have we have faith in that or not, but that is that is the issue.

D

It was a bit of a rhetorical question because we're just trying to come up with cuts and we.

D

Did we are providing that with 96 of what they asked for? I agree and one of the out challenges.

A

Is how the ccps and board of education does their budget timing wise compared to how we do.

A

Our budget, it it doesn't rely on our us doing our budget, they do their budget. We do our budget and.

A

It'll they they make it fit where we should be doing our budget, and then they yeah do theirs.

C

But that's that's how it's been forever and that's for people listening. That's state law.

B

That's not a decision. The school system is making, I still don't like it yeah. I agree it.

A

It you know you're putting because if, if not, we do exactly what you're recommending we could do.

A

um Which is I mean, that's why we're here and I think uh I think not easy. No, but I've been saying.

A

I've been saying this, I apologize, I think, before every year it frustrates me, I think, before we cut.

C

Existing people's raises, which is what we're doing um we need to cut positions. We added, I mean.

C

I go through um or ongoing money. The comptroller financial management system, 350.

C

000 a year uh you know, like I say um you know, are we going to cut a same percentage from.

C

The community college, the library, the sheriff and state's attorney and and everybody else on that.

C

Page, it's uh again, I'm biased, because I was there right. um The school system is one of the biggest.

C

Things this county funds and it's an easy target to bounce and I've said that before and I can't.

C

Be one of those commissioners, so let's just take a couple million off of them and balance the budget.

C

It might be easy, but it's not right. Well, the financial management system, I think, is necessary.

A

Moving forward with the financial management system, it'll get us into this century of doing.

A

Work but my challenge with salaries is, um I mean it's difficult. um We've provided our sheriff with.

A

A large salary increase over the years for all the right reasons,.

A

I believe- and I was a part of those decisions- um we've put money into salaries into our workforce.

A

For all the right reasons, but if we're at this point and we're not looking at increasing revenue.

A

For this you know ongoing funds, then salaries are going to be the the target and um I don't.

A

Believe it should be our workforce at this point, because we are really a skeleton of a workforce.

A

I'd like to know where we're not but right now we are really a skeleton and we're building positions.

A

To get us into a better posture, like fire ems, with those two positions that are critical.

A

um So maybe taking a percent or half percent off of other salaries may be warranted. um I don't know.

A

That's that that's an option across the board, a certain percentage- and I just want to clarify- I am.

D

Not suggesting cutting the school board's budget, I am suggesting that we increase it by 11.9 million.

D

Correct, that's what I am proposing right, I'm not proposing! We take any money from.

D

Them that they already have that's correct that sort of semantics, but it's important yep.

F

I was under the understanding and somebody pleased to correct me if I'm wrong part of.

F

The and kenny you might know this, the money that was given to the school system was to help.

F

Pave the way in certain areas for blueprint, for example, trying to get the salaries up.

F

To a level that would be close to to achieving what blueprint was going to require. No, I don't.

A

Believe so that's that was my big questions. All the time was, how is this.

A

You know in preparation for blueprint. Are you doing this because of blueprint and.

A

The answers were always no we're doing this because of the inadequacies of the schools.

A

um It's basically business as usual, although I mean some things will help like if salaries.

B

Go up, then you are closer to being the 60 000, but but what they're asking for this year is.

B

Not specifically about implementing yes right, but just getting ready, knowing that it's coming right.

F

So you see it does seem like. That was a thing. That's not the theme it was. It was.

D

In the mix but right that they think what you're saying again, you have the.

D

uh You know you've you've been through a few of these, so you probably had the insight to say well.

D

Maybe not so fast, but it seemed that way to me in a lot of discussions. It was I please don't.

D

Take that the wrong way? No, no I, but, but what I saw was exactly what you saw. There was no.

A

Early on no, I mean the presentation that they provide us in the joint meeting that was here.

A

um Was the first time I saw that slide deck and they said here are the things.

A

That we must fund- and this is why we're asking for 6.7 million dollars in addition to what.

A

We are, you know in addition to the original 6.7.

A

And I was specific, you know saying: is this blueprint related and the answers were always no.

A

And then the second question was okay: what's the priority of this powerpoint slide and their answer.

A

Was this is the priority? There is no rank order, it was like a one through 12, but they were all.

A

The high priority that was like their number one priority in the slide and I've asked the same.

A

Question multiple times, um of course, on priorities: if they don't get all the money, then something.

B

Will have to be a problem, of course that's where we were saying we we think they're saying they.

B

Would fund all those other things and they would make up the difference in salary, but it wasn't.

A

A preparation for blueprint, it was they, they said. Hey, we lost 300 in some odd positions. We don't.

A

Have a special education, you know uh requirements, we don't have certain counselors that need to be.

A

Put in place, I don't remember the entire list, but I happen to be looking at it. It wasn't blueprint.

A

Directed and um what is blueprint directed, which we can't answer right now, is what next year is.

A

Going to look like legislatively if they allow us to use money that is put into compensatory.

A

Education, if that opens up, then we're good we're better in a better place. Right now,.

A

It's not so robert. Are you uh well, I just um the the list um from the um board of education.

I

Is inflationary impacts of a variety of kinds, utilities, insurance, other things, some blueprint.

I

Print requirements like dual enrollment um and ap queer counseling full day full pre-k full day.

I

um Transportation and bus contractors substitute teacher rates, some additional staffing and then.

I

Employee compensation negotiations. So what was the blueprint fees? Because I I'm too specifically.

I

Identified the blueprint requirements go to some employee compensation. I stand corrected. Okay and.

I

Also go to dual enrollment, which is: oh, that's, the um community college. It's big um ap career.

I

Counseling and full pre-k full day. That's right! This is not the heavy lift, though I mean this.

B

This touches blueprint and you're on um pre-k. Just remind me, some somebody at the hearing said.

B

uh Let the private sector take care of pre-k. Current legislation actually has half of that.

B

Going to the private sector, the problem is, the private sector doesn't appear to be picking it.

B

Up right, and so it's not that we're not right. Looking that way, the state actually did yeah.

A

And the dual enrollment has to do with the community college and us picking up the bills.

A

Yeah starting in the fall, I guess I think so right now. I know that parent parents, families are still.

G

Paying me because I I written those checks, you know either way. I'm still writing those checks.

I

That's right, it's just whether as a commissioner either way yeah but you'd, know better [laughter].

I

So it's it's a little! So okay, so going back to um the 5.6.2 to 5.2! Is that a doable action.

A

Or would it cause more difficulties for the board of education in schools, since what.

A

They've already accomplished in their budget adoption yesterday. Well, I think clearly they.

B

Would say it's going to cause complications well come yeah, okay, but I mean uh it would go back to.

A

An arbitrator: no, no! We don't know that that just becomes a possibility if they have, if they have.

B

To go back into negotiations and can't get to an agreement, then that becomes possible. So this.

A

Is something that they need to be listening to? I'm sure they are potentially oh, they are.

I

Happy to come over and talk to you if you needed it well,.

A

um And then, as far as the salary, because I I do ask just leaving georgia because I don't.

A

Think georgia affects anything, but should I say that again the what I don't feel like georgetown.

A

Affects anything well, it was more again, I mean part of it was my not completely understanding.

D

How we're funding those projects, but it really? It really was more than next year yeah, but I mean.

A

Just I don't want to say max knicks or I don't. I don't care, but I don't think it's.

A

Effects are there um that you're looking for regarding georgetown, um the salary, though, is.

A

um And that's significant and we, you know, if we're willing to look at all those salary increases.

A

um Again, I think, I think, from our workforce. You know position that we should not go any lower if.

A

Not higher, if possible, but there's no appetite right now to go higher, um even with bonuses.

A

And I know a lot of uh folks are out there. Looking for seller increases.

A

I don't know what we're providing to the other entities.

A

As far as percentages, I don't have it in front of me. The extra money that has been put in in so so.

I

um For the state's attorney and the sheriff etc, and you want to go to that deb yeah.

E

Yeah um we fun, we funded half of the state's attorney the community college, the public well.

E

More, not the public library we, we funded 89 the courts, half of what they asked for they, what they.

E

Were asking for was a 10 increase in the base above the what was already built into the plan.

E

And a longevity factor so instead of 10 it was five percent and half of the longevity does that.

E

Make sense, okay and that didn't quite go there. What was already built in was the five and a half.

B

That you dropped in four and a half so when you say we funded half of what they asked for. That's.

B

On top of what was already in the recommended budget, so if we took out the four and a half.

A

And left it at five and a half I mean they were doing a comparison to our salary increases.

A

Originally for correct that ten percent, so they were trying to get to that 10 percent.

G

Yes, if we took out the four and a half yeah, what's that the extra so to speak,.

A

And again, it's not cuts because we have budgeted in there five and a half percent.

I

Right well, it's now four and a half percent, but yes.

I

It was in the recommended budget for all employees on the commissioner's payroll.

I

Right, which is more than just your employees, that includes the state's attorney the sheriff.

I

um The um the sheriff's fair sheriff's different that includes a state's attorney soil conservation.

I

Who everybody keeps not mentioning? Six people in soil conservation uh and the courts in the.

I

Recommended budget there was a 5.55 increase and that goes to a you know, fulfill a couple.

I

Things that were came to light as a result of our studies over the last couple years.

I

um Then the courts, the sheriff the state's attorney and soil.

I

Conservation, community college and public libraries all ask for additional salaries.

I

Different percentages, all of which have been funded in some part by the board at today,.

B

And they vary a lot. The sheriff already had four percent built in.

B

And what you added, I think, was about seven percent right. That was pretty close.

B

um For the library they were looking for on top of three percent, not specifically for salaries.

B

But three percent built into their budgets- and we added almost another three- is that right.

E

For libraries, originally, they were asking for a seven and a half.

I

They originally rasped for seven and a half and now 89 of it yeah. There's three percent built.

B

In for everything they do, you know so, whatever the library yes and they asked for another seven.

B

And a half on top of that they got. I don't know what it worked out to but say seven seven percent.

B

um It would seem likely that that would largely go to to salaries, but it get. You know it's in.

B

Other words places where we don't control those numbers. We can't tell you exactly what they are.

B

The community college we had built in three percent and they asked for another.

B

Five hundred thousand dollars 250. 250 000., and that was was that all included no half of that.

E

It would have been one yeah, it would have been one percent and we included a half okay. So you.

B

Know, there's there's lots of stuff happening here and it's happening in all kinds of different ways.

I

But there were base increases for all those organizations and then there have been now.

I

Additional increases for every organization, with the exception of commissioner employees,.

A

Because the rationale for those other organizations.

A

Is that the commissioner employees received it in september, that's their or they're making.

I

At least partly, what's that yeah at least part yeah,.

B

I know when we hit these moments where everything gets silent.

B

The temptation is to say, let's stop and come back again. Well, I apologize. I had an emergency.

C

Personal, what so, what's the bottom line? Now we're balanced, yeah? Nothing! You don't want to know well.

E

um This includes some, uh I mean, do you want me to take this out or keep it in? What's that.

E

Reduction to the board of education, another percent- uh this is.

E

Commissioner garen's suggestions, oh with the board of education piece, I don't think I think we should.

C

Punish our employees and their employees when we're adding positions and adding other things.

C

That's that's wrong. I think we're going to be in a not a good position if we.

A

Do that at this time as well, I don't think we're going to be in a good position if they've already.

A

Gone through their proposed budget they're, you know approved budget because it's going to cause.

A

I didn't realize that that's already been done.

A

And the last thing we need to do is get them to go back to the table and potentially to arbitration.

A

I am, I mean it comes it's coming down to this. In my view,.

A

That a choice is going to be looks like it's going to be made whether we adjust the revenue.

A

As we discussed early on allowing all of the expenses that we have put in place,.

A

Or take away that revenue and look at the salaries? Because really that's where the crux of.

A

The dollars are of all of the folks and get them down to that four and a half percent. You know or.

A

You know, that's been put in place and anything above and beyond either take that away or I.

A

Know there's a reluctance on bonuses, but in all honesty, if a dollar comes in somebody's pocket.

A

Whether it's via a salary increase or just a separate check, they're happy to get that.

A

Dollar- and it may just provide something moving forward, knowing that there's that.

A

Care for them and they're they're importance. I mean that's what these type of bonuses can do.

A

And we have the fortune and the luxury of doing that with one-time money, so.

A

That's something I mean to consider, I know, there's a reluctance, but there's also reluctance on.

A

The taxes so um so I I understand your point. I would prefer to try to diversify some of these.

D

Reductions, if you will the intention isn't to punish anybody. I I think that word was mentioned.

D

Nobody's being punished everybody's, getting an increase everybody's budget's, getting an.

D

Increase everybody's salaries, getting an increase, we're adding positions, so um I think that's an.

D

Important point I'll keep on making it that we're not cutting anybody's we're, not cutting a single.

D

Thing right out of this budget, as far as I can tell there might have been something in there, but.

D

Everybody's getting more yeah and there's a few billets and a few systems like the fms that are.

G

Or you know for the right reasons, but but again, if we look at okay, we're making a determination.

A

It's going in that direction that this is not the year to increase attacks. If, on the horizon, there's.

A

Going to be a significant reason to increase taxes, so why not do it once and not twice.

A

um There's also a reluctance on bonuses to put on the band-aids of some of these.

A

Salaries, but I'll tell you if we don't do the recordation, we'll put the bonuses in place again.

A

um Where, if we, if we increase the salaries, we would have to increase recognition, we would.

A

Have to increase, I mean there's we would have to if we did that or the servants of the county.

A

um Really thinking through hey I'm getting a salary increase, because it's on the backs of.

A

The taxpayers uh increase and if we can give them the same level of appreciation through a bonus.

A

Not being put on the backs of the increase of taxpayers, then I think that's legitimate.

A

um It's a way of doing it. um I think we have the funds to do it for one time.

A

And I know it doesn't sit well with bonuses, but it also sits less with recordation.

A

Or with taxes so and, and I think and understand what you're saying everybody's getting something.

C

They're getting less than inflation, so uh that's who knows what inflation is now eight eight point.

A

Something percent yeah: they were starting at less than inflation, but we've now cut it to.

C

Well well under inflation, and uh I just I if I, if I've got a balance 500 on a four.

C

Hundred thousand dollar house versus putting in on the backs of all the employees of ours.

C

In the school system right, it's a no-brainer for me: where do we have the school system right now,.

H

Do we is that millions still out, or is that back in? Where is that it is back in okay, good.

H

I just was making sure 6.2 we're back to six we're back to 6.2, good yeah, okay, good.

H

I don't really want to personally mess with their negotiations. We did what we did in good faith. They.

H

Adopted their budget in good faith, so I'd like to definitely keep us at that. I know that doesn't.

H

Make it easy, but I'd rather keep it at that, because that's just people sticking by their word.

F

Well, I will uh I'm sorry I was gonna say so. What are the thoughts about? You know my.

A

Idea what the bonus is leaving recreation off the table? What do the numbers look like? Can.

H

We look at them yeah. This is, this is what it would be, including the sheriff's office.

E

um It does not include the 80 000 per diem for or stipend for, the health department. Would you like.

E

To have that included in in this reduction as one-time costs, no that's an ongoing. It's.

E

um Right right here, the 80 000. wait. um Let me go back to the proposed so.

E

Here I highlighted in yellow everything that would be that everything that was included.

E

In the proposed budget, that was an additional salary increase.

I

Above the recommended- yes above the recommended, so it's the community college.

E

The library, the courts, states attorney soil conservation and then down here is the sheriff.

E

um What I high have this color here is: do you want this included in the reduction.

E

For the health department it is paying, you know it is paid basically, but it's a stipend rather than.

I

Increasing the base.

I

It's going to be every year, though it's ongoing money, so I'd be plugging the whole kind of thing.

F

Well, gentlemen, I I'm sorry roberta if I could just well. I apologize one thing to think about.

I

Is the public library has indicated that if they don't get at least a hundred and twenty.

I

Thousand dollars extra, then they won't be able to make that minimum wage. That's now.

I

Been pushed up by the state, so that would put them in a bind if you took the whole 641 away.

F

So, gentlemen, I will take the point of defending the budget that we had established when we walked.

F

In here, outside of the adjustment that we made to ag pres, you know I've stayed in my position.

F

Unequivocally and repeatedly about you know my dislike of having to raise any kind of tax.

F

At all this was you know we we arrived at the point that we arrived at through very careful.

F

Discussions or very careful consideration, the you know the for example, the increases.

F

To the the courts right and we're hoping at some point in the future, we're going to be.

F

Able to to implement a veterans court, but we can't do that if our court employees are not.

F

Properly compensated for the work, that's being done, you know the the the positions that we've.

F

Added, for example, in various departments or the state's attorney that comes from video.

F

Evidence review these are things that are going to be necessitated by the state in coming years.

F

um You know with the with the board of education, you know, as we had talked about earlier, some of.

F

That stuff is to to help. You know, anticipate the full implementation of blueprint in coming years.

F

You know we look get we, you know. Yes, we quibble over. Some man thinks about well. Well, we cut it or.

F

We we, you know, decreased it or whatever. The case is, but you know we we did cut projected. We did.

F

Make cuts to the projected budget, we did make cuts to a projected budget. It may not be an actual cut.

F

But given where we're going, the trajectory we did alter the trajectory, um you know the the decision.

F

To raise the recreation tax was a last-ditch effort to get us through that three-point. Whatever.

F

It was 3.9 that was outstanding, nobody liked it, nobody wanted it, but it was a necessary step.

F

And I take the argument that I made previously that that you know if we're, if, even if that rate.

F

Where we're looking at, you know negative tens of millions of dollars over time without adding into.

F

Things blueprints, you know I I again I I hate I'm going to be pragmatic and I'm going to be.

F

As rational as possible, if we were looking at this purely as a mathematical operation,.

F

um You know a small but staggered increase in in the recreation tax between this year and next year.

F

um Even taking next year off the table for that matter, fiscal year 25. But to get us through where.

F

We need to be this year with that 3.9. You know I again, I I do not like the idea of having to.

F

Raise any kind of tax at all, and I certainly understand that the passion, the arguments.

F

That the realtors gave us the other night, and I certainly understand that you know you can make.

F

An argument: well, if you take five percent out of every department, but every department gets.

F

Affected differently- and I think, where we are right now, is no matter how we try to work. This.

F

Out? Where we're trying to make that last stitch effort to save having to raise the recreation rate.

F

And- and I appreciate the discussion, I respect the discussion right, but we just keep coming.

F

Back around to the same point, it's almost like we're. We started out at the beginning.

F

Of today of this afternoon that that you know the recreation rate was raised, not out of a desire to.

F

Do so out of a necessity to do so? um You know I will, if I think somebody brought the point.

F

Earlier that that you know one of the reasons why one of the many reasons why people moved to this.

F

County or the services that we provide. But if we have a growing population and we're already.

F

Down approximately 100 people that, were you, know, positions that had been cut in the past. uh You.

F

Know we raised the tipping fee at the at the uh we're looking at raising the tipping fee at the.

F

The landfill to accommodate an extra position to service people who are using the landfill.

F

um You know we we are, I think, and I will you know, as I mentioned a couple weeks ago, I think.

F

That this is a measured and moderate, modest way of approaching a burgeoning problem. They.

F

May have used different language a couple weeks ago, but you know in my mind, anyways. I feel like.

F

We've come back to the same place effectively that we started out this afternoon session with.

F

um You know, and I I appreciate the effort to to try to stave off a recreation tax, but if we.

F

End up in a situation again next year, where it's double what we would potentially have this year.

F

What are we going to do? Raise property tax rates, raise income tax rates next that that.

F

That, in my mind, was the ultimate reason that we raised the recreation rate with this budget.

F

Was to avoid hitting people in their daily lives with property tax rates and income tax rates. You.

F

Know again, it sickens me to have to raise any of those rates, but it's the least evil of the three.

F

um And so again, I would, I would humbly suggest that we are effectively where we started at this.

F

Afternoon and again I appreciate, and I applaud the discussion, it's good that we had the discussion.

F

But I think at this point we we really are going in a circle now so.

A

Soak that up it really isn't and there's not a whole lot. Like uh tom said you know, a live.

A

Inventory that's out there um there's some growth areas that are happening um within the county.

A

But I want to get down to.

A

What you just kind of said in a nutshell like so besides, going in a circle, I mean, are you now.

A

Saying you want to start back to where we were by keeping recreation in place corrected the 625.

F

Okay- and you want to keep the you want to keep everything in place, everything the way it was.

F

Including our votes, who add the 1 million going forward with ag pres in future years.

C

And and uh I tend to agree the the ag press adding that future years, I'm fine with that.

C

Because I think one way or the other, we were going to make it whole each year. Now I think.

C

The more the better way to do that would be with the one-time money we seem to have in surplus.

C

Every year and do that whether they're ongoing, but I can see what you're saying about the trust issue.

C

But again um I've always been an employee, heavy and equipment, heavy um industries, but.

C

I just I can't see trying to balance a budget on the backs of all the current employees.

C

I I just I just don't see that and, like I say, the the 5.5 5 to 4.55 to me: hurt because of inflation.

C

And what's going on and and what people are paying for stuff, but I felt like we had to do that.

C

To be prudent, because we don't want to raise any anything any more than we have.

C

To but I I just feel like cutting them down even further cutting the other groups down.

C

I just don't feel it's the right time to do that and um I I understand the passion we saw.

C

At the public hearing I don't agree with the logic, but I understand the passion and again.

C

I feel like if we want to do something for carroll, county and housing. We need to up the inventory and.

C

And fixed density and and try to make some stuff affordable now again back to the inflation.

C

The fact that interest is so much higher on a mortgage right now, the ford 500 million dollar.

C

Houses are still going to sell, but the anybody that was pre-qualified at 250 that dropped to.

C

About 170 and there's no way they can find a house for that. So um you know I I understand.

C

That that side of the fence wants everything they can have, but again 500 for each side, the buyer and.

C

The seller to sell a house if I I can't and I hate, raising it and I've, been told by a lot of friends.

C

How wrong I am, but you don't you, don't not do that and throw it on the backs of current employees.

A

Okay, um so you want to basically say the same as is and and ag press I'll go either yeah.

A

The salary at four point: five percent: that's what you're saying everything the way we had.

C

It ever seen the way we had it, and I came in here with a wish for a bonus, but if that goes away, I.

C

I fully understand that you know okay.

A

Thoughts well we're 130 minutes in, and uh we said we're going to take as long as we need to.

H

Take so we asked, we've walked around in circles, but I still think there's more work to be done.

H

um I don't disagree with you about wanting to.

H

Take care of our employees, I don't think anybody's going to tell us or any of us are.

H

Going to say, we don't want to take care of our employees. I just think we need to spend.

H

A little more time and look at this, we have the time and I think we need to use it. Okay,.

H

I mean we can start wherever you want, but I mean my bottom line. Is I'm not ready to finalize this and at this point I'm not going to support recreation when it comes to the budget? Okay, so you've got one vote out already.

A

um But it means there a specific area. You want to focus on I'm looking at the whole budget and.

H

I'm not being smart when I say that I just we're going in circles here. I know that we've pulled.

H

Some things we've thrown it back in my whole thing is, and I know ted's not gonna like it till we take.

H

A fresh break: do we come back in 20 minutes? Do we wait till tuesday I mean I don't care how we.

H

Do it, but well for a breakover yeah? No! No! I got you ted hold on hold on, um but if, if we're truly.

C

Going to vote against raising recreation taxes, then we need to take stuff out again.

C

And I respect your position, but you walked in this room and added a million dollars a year, but want.

C

To not raise taxes well, you know well my point of the million I'd rather see. Let's, let's cut some.

C

Of the stuff we added that's new, I can handle that. Okay, what do you want to cut, but not not.

C

Not get employees down to uh a race, that's not respectable. What do you want to start ken.

H

Where do you want to start my opinion on the new pieces? Where do you want to start? Where are we.

C

Unless we pass something different, we need to start where we walked in this room. He's saying.

A

Keep starting where we're worse so is he yeah and like you're saying I just want to know what areas.

A

That we can start diving well, you were just, but he had just mentioned the fact of things we added so.

H

I mean we added a bunch of things, the other couple weeks. I mean what in those areas would you cut.

H

Gentlemen, I would humbly suggest we wrap up for the day, there's obviously mortise, there's obvious.

F

I would argue that there's more discussions that come, commissioner gordon, wants to continue on. He.

F

Needs some time to look over whatever it is. He wants to talk about. Commissioner kyler is talking.

F

About you, maybe cutting some of these positions um and I think, coming back on tuesday or tomorrow,.

F

Whenever give me just one sure jimmy comments, you want me well, I I as far as the ag I don't, I don't.

D

Particularly uh agree with what commissioner viglotti said, but he's probably right.

D

I I will be that's why this group works together. Yes, we do, and so we.

D

And we I agree you're right, we do. We do work together. Really, uh I will be.

D

Maybe I'm naive, I will be. I will be disappointed if we can't come up with.

D

0.75 percent of this budget to cut .75- that is not it's less than one percent, but.

D

I I'm not I'm not comfortable with the recreation tax either. uh Ironically, um I agree with you and.

D

Commissioner, gordon, I didn't quite buy some of the arguments and uh unbeknownst to a lot.

D

Of folks, I walked out and told them that, right after our budget hearing- and I think they seem.

D

To actually appreciate it, I think I just wanted a t-shirt and I never got one so, but I didn't really.

D

Agree with their comments, but at the same time I'm opposed to the recreation taxes. At the same time,.

D

For other reasons, for just basic reasons of taxation, I I think we could probably.

D

Agree to stay here all night, but I'm not sure it's going to help. So so why don't we.

A

I'll tell you my my opinion may be looking at splitting the baby a little bit.

A

um And it could be potentially looking at recreation in a much smaller increment than.

A

From five to six point two five and it could be a five to point five point: five or something you.

A

Know that there may be something there that can give us something, um because those asks above and.

A

Beyond the requested budget and those asks that we have put in place and have discarded to this point,.

A

I believe are very legitimate. um You know the 6.7 additional from the board of education from the.

A

Ccps, I thought was very legitimate. We got to 6.2 um the asks for fms for the positions for.

A

um Fire ems: absolutely I felt what were legitimate the raises, um so maybe we can.

A

Get there by not going overboard with a five to six point, two: five, because that did not get a.

A

Unanimous approach and although we may not get a unanimous approach on anything, it may come closer.

A

If we say okay, we're going to inch to this from a 5 to 5.5 and find out what that is, but I know.

A

It gets laborious and I know it feels like you go in circles.

A

um The one thing I have learned over the years is sometimes just fight through it a little bit.

A

Take a breather and you know, and keep going just for a little bit more, so I recommend we take a 10.

A

Minute break stretch and then go for another 30, 40 minutes and I'll, be it okay. So we have pretty much.

A

Like a hard stop around 4 4 15. is that and that's up to everybody else, I don't care whether we stay.

C

Here we come back tuesday or whatever, but one more point right or wrong. We said it a hundred times.

C

The budget isn't final, but the world saw it through. The ted show the public comments.

C

Everybody's looked at it, we had it balancing and I think we've got to be very cautious.

C

That we make sure anything we change now we change with very good reason, not just uh not just to get.

C

To a bottom line I agree and it's hard yeah and I'll tell you might be just before we break and.

C

That's why I liked your right. Your ag prez hit me, and you know those that are listening to this.

A

Those that came out on tuesday evening, if your thoughts and comments don't matter and we're just.

A

Going to rubber stamp what we've already put into a recommended budget, this is showing you that it's.

A

Not that way, you know we are taking every comment and every thought as candid as we can and working.

A

Through it right, um because this is not our bucket- it's our county's budget, and um so we, you know, we.

A

Owe it to to them uh may not get like you said everything you want, but, uh okay, why don't we.

A

uh Take a recess till 3 30 will that work? I need a promotion a session, a second all in favor aye.

A

Okay, we left off after a 15 minute recess. We are charged and ready to go.

A

One thought I did bring up prior to recess is.

A

We're bouncing around the discussion on recreation taxes and going from five to six point. Two: five.

A

um You know, I think, is getting to a point where it's too hard of a pill to swallow at this point.

A

um If it went from five to five point, five or five point, seven five: what is the.

A

Magical numbers that would appear and.

B

As deb is doing that a process thought if we are not going to finish today, I think we need to leave.

B

Here with some idea of what is it that's going to happen between now and tuesday, that's going to put.

B

Us into a different conversation than the one we're having today, because if we just come back.

B

We're going to be doing the same thing again, I think you're right yeah, so.

G

E

Fine is what I'm sorry.

E

That's what 5.5 would do.

G

K

It's not growing. Well it we have it flat. Okay, yes, you're right! We have.

E

It dropping and then flat right. Let me just see.

E

I I don't have this right because, right now we are showing the recreation actually remaining.

E

At 6.25, so I have to do something different here yeah, so we have to take away that actor.

A

And I guess as we're going through, that I mean: what's the what's: the feasibility.

A

From us on that, I mean what what are your thoughts well, we're gonna have to make up the.

F

Revenue, so you leave the 6.25 there and subtract the difference depending on. I guess on how much my.

F

Suggestion would be to pull it out of the parking garage that we're projecting the 9 million. That.

F

We're projecting for the parking garage plug the hole this year and we'll move on to next year.

A

And keeping it like a 5.5 is what you're saying: okay.

E

Right, what are your thoughts.

H

Well, we all know in a perfect world we'd like to do all of it, which was not.

H

um I could go along with the parking garage, but I really would like to see if we could.

H

Leave recordational alone, at least for a year I mean I know, we've got challenges across the.

H

Board- but I really do not want to do this this year, so we could take it all out of.

F

The parking garage plug the gap this year. I don't think that gets us where we need to be.

J

Though, does it well for negative 3.9 and we take 3.9 out of uh the parking garage.

A

Again, it's not it's not we're kind of masking an issue right. I understand but yeah. I.

F

If we aren't trying to work through this year and we are trying to reach a consensus.

F

We we do understand, I think, all of us that that, as I would imagine, we all understand.

F

I don't want to assume, but that you know something is going to have to give away.

F

In the coming fiscal year, and that's why we are going to be meeting in july, or I would.

F

Imagine we're going to begin meeting over the summer to deal with this. um You know if.

F

If plugging the gap gets us through this year without the recreation tax increase, that's true.

F

And that's how we move from point a to point b, which gets us through the rest of the the.

F

Alphabetical point constellation and if that's, what gets everybody on this board comfortable.

F

With supporting the budget as it is because again, as I mentioned earlier, you know a lot of the stuff.

F

That the positions for the state's attorney with that video evidence review that kind of stuff. I.

F

Mean this is not. These are not choices that were, were you know, summoning out of the ether.

F

To to implement you know, there's all a tangible reason for the existence of these things and why.

F

We made the reason the choice, the rational choice, to add these into the into the budget.

F

um And so if the difficulty is moving beyond the recreation tax for this year, then logically.

F

It seems to me we have to pull that out of one of the larger projects that we've put one-time.

F

Funding into to bridge the gap between this year and fy25, and I will go on the record and say that.

F

While I can accept doing that, I'm not comfortable doing that. I will you know if it's the majority.

F

Of this board decides, if that's the way to go, I will go along with it because I want. I really do.

F

Want to try to find a budget that we can all agree to at least this first year. So what's what's the.

A

Difference between doing something like that which I understand, but it's still masking an issue then.

A

Providing bonuses to those that we believe are, you know, warranted the additional increase well, and I.

F

I take the point, but I will reiterate the argument that I made a little earlier that that you know we.

F

Give them we give employees the bun not that they don't deserve. You know the salaries they're making.

F

But we give them a bonus this year. That makes it incumbent on us to try to do something next.

F

Year as well, we're going to be doing the exact same thing by by masking it with one-time funds.

A

To zero a balance this year, we are going to be in a a very difficult situation. That's not going to.

A

You know lower the budget or lower the uh the the difference in that budget. So my my.

A

Recommendation- and it's just one of amongst us, is that we look at.

A

How to fix or establish this budget using ongoing funds the best we can um that to me.

A

Legitimizes the budget not by masking it um so- and I understand you, you know the tax situation.

A

If we're going to do it, do we do it once do we do it twice if necessary, are we willing to do it.

A

um Because of the expenses that are put in front of us, um I mean I I get that uh that's. Why.

A

I'm making a suggestion of instead of hitting it with that entire one one and a quarter.

A

Hit it with a third of that or you know, 50 cent increase um and then commissioner rossi and I I.

F

You know I again, I know I've said this a thousand times, I'm not. I just don't like tax increases.

F

Right, but I also understand that there's a reality here and, like I said a couple minutes ago, I would.

F

I would be far more comfortable doing a measured and modest increase to get us.

F

Into the next year, but if it means having all of us on board for the budget this year, then I can.

F

Stomach plugging the budget to get us through to next year, because next year there is going.

F

To be no avoiding that we're going to have you know tremendous costs at this year next year,.

F

Is going to you know, pale in comparison, or this year is going to pay on comparison to next year.

F

But if we can all be united on this moving forward with the current budget doing our best to to be as.

F

Fiscally prudent as possible and yes, we are plugging a gap to get us through this year.

F

But next year all bets are off, so I appreciate your comments. I too am against the recreation tax.

D

I think we all agree that masking masking's bad but in my mind masking would be looking.

D

At a deficit and just taking one-time funds to make it look like we balanced it, I think.

D

You're talking about the parking garage, though so as far as I'm concerned, I think there's some.

D

Healthy ambiguity there, with with what you do with those funds, if we do that.

D

We we abandon the notion of the recreation tax we do that and, and and- and I think.

D

Commissioner, I think commissioner rusty mentioned earlier, you just take a look at.

D

Possibly you didn't use the term shaving some things off, but just slightly slightly.

D

Reducing things across the board in certain areas- maybe that gets us where we need to be.

D

That you were talking about looking across.

C

Okay, so are we willing.

C

To go back to where we were when we came in on paper.

C

And we're saying we want all of them to find three-point man, 3.9 million that can come.

C

Out of the ongoing money is that what we want them to look at between now and next meeting.

C

I don't believe we can do that. I I it would help you run into policy decisions. Oh yeah.

A

Yeah that that's us, I agree yeah. I think what my suggestion is is to use one-time.

I

Money to put 3.9 million dollars on the bottom line in balance, 24.- that is the simple correct.

I

Well, you mean commissioner vigliani yeah, I didn't interpret it that way, but I to.

D

Your point, commissioner kyler, I think I think what you're asking for might make sense. I mean.

C

I'm not comfortable taking out of employees, pay, I'm not foreign, we need somehow. We need.

C

3.9, I I think we were at a good place, maybe, with the exception of cutting ag press, I was.

C

Never comfortable about that, but I think it's that's fixable, um but I don't know.

C

I don't see a whole lot that I want to cut out of here, but if we do like I say my opinion, it would.

C

Be new positions and and not not punishing the current employees, but that's that's me.

D

We have five very diverse opinions on how to get this done. Maybe that's a good thing.

F

And- and I think commissioner rossi had mentioned this a couple weeks ago, right that you know not.

F

One of us is going to be 100 satisfied with the budget, but it's getting it to a place where you.

F

Know we were, as commissioner gordon mentioned earlier. We were elected to these positions to.

F

Make the best decisions possible that we could and if getting us through this year,.

F

Again is taking 3.9 out of the parking garage if that gets us all on the same page, at least.

F

As far as that is concerned, taking that 3.9 out of the parking garage and and putting the.

F

Recreation tax back at five dollars gets us through fy 24.. Then I can deal with that, but.

G

And I do I understand, but if you.

A

5 26 27. They are.

A

Very large, yes, challenges that we're being confronted with and we should not look. I believe.

A

At just walking into fy24 by law, that's what we have to do. That's the bottom line to get there, but.

I

Well, that's the reduced yeah yeah. Take that out.

E

That's what it is, if you keep the recreation, if you keep it? Yes, yes, so if you take it out.

I

It's 3.8 million dollars; that's 3.9, yeah 3.8 and change yeah. What.

F

You know, as I mentioned a little while before we went on break right, I feel that we achieved.

F

The best possible budget that we could have, but if it means bringing on two more of us to.

F

Agree to the budget I'm willing to alter how we're bringing income into this year's budget.

G

But that doesn't, but this doesn't balance the budget. No, you know I was going to say.

C

uh Changing the parking garage won't, we can't change it enough to make this zero.

A

I mean isn't there and if we can there's nine million in right, if you're doing if.

B

You're willing to settle for a one-time fix. Yes, because there's nine million of cash.

A

So you could I'm not advocating that, but no yeah, that's where part of the conversation has been.

B

Because fy 25 26 everything is way out of balance and then we're going to be. You know in a worse.

A

Situation next year, so the best thing we can do is work hard to get 24 25 26. As far as we can.

A

Closer to zeros well without using one-time funds. Well, if we're, if we're taking.

C

Over putting back the revenue we allocated to the parking garage and did you still have half of the.

C

Parking garage as uh bond money- yes- and we don't know what the parking garage is going to cost no.

C

And then that makes this year. Okay, but next year is still ugly and we will have to find the money.

B

That we didn't put in the parking garage right, yes, yeah, my guess is we're going to.

B

End up spending more than 18 million, not less than 18000. Yes, and that's a fair point. What.

G

uh I don't particularly want to give up anything that we've said we wanted to.

C

Spend money on, and at least two of you don't want to you, don't care if recreation tax goes up a.

C

Quarter, it's you, don't want it to change period. So maybe this is the only viable option and.

C

You just gotta make sure you save as much money next year as you did this year and we have surplus.

C

And we'll use it for the garage, I mean we're we're putting lipstick on a pig. What what did.

C

You say never never do a budget based on hope, and here I am that's right, but we really are. We are.

A

It's it's lipstick on the pig, we're masking yep, a situation that is not in balance and.

A

um It's been done before this way, oh I'm sure, and it comes out the same way. It's not in balance.

A

um You know and uh the hard decision to do.

A

Is either cutting services that we've said no again going back to commissioner karen? It's not.

A

Cutting services that are in places cutting those services they're being requested of us.

A

For additional funding or service and product, or it's increasing any level of revenue and.

A

We got to a point where we raised revenue significantly in recordation. If that's not the.

A

Right method or equation to use, then why not look at raising recreation in a much smaller amount to.

A

50 cents, I understand that nobody likes the word increase taxes. So even if it's a penny but we've.

A

Got to get somewhere where we add revenue to meet the demands and the services that are being.

A

Put in front of us, or we take those services away doing it, this way just masks the problem.

A

And that we look ahead, yeah we've talked at times about the future years. I'll make sure we bring.

B

Together two things: we've been talking about more or less separately, whatever's on that bottom line,.

B

Is a problem that's going to need to be fixed and whatever is going to come to us through blueprint.

B

And increase costs for fire ems beyond what we have captured so far is that on on top of that,.

B

And if the picture is what it seems like it's looking to us, we will be faced with a.

B

Choice between tax increases or service cuts, and that's not reductions and increases in services.

B

We will have to look at reducing services that there's the there are only choices and playing.

B

Around with a million here, a millionaire is not what are we're going to be facing.

B

And that's that says nothing about what we're doing right now. I just yep, don't want to lose that. I know.

A

What are some additional thoughts.

F

Oh gentlemen, how do you feel about the parking garage idea.

F

If it avoids the recreation tax increase for this year well, so I.

D

Sounds like the parking garage is a is a foregone conclusion, although we don't have the study yet.

D

Right but consensus seems to be that we're going to need it. Okay, so what's what's worse,.

D

Masking a potential deficit using surplus or raising taxes to spend more money.

D

I think the latter is much worse. That's just my personal view. That's just mike's view, commissioner.

D

Guarantee you so, if we're talking about using surplus to try to accomplish some things, I'm.

D

Much more in favor of that again I mean, I think, we're having a good discussion here.

D

We've done a lot. This budget accomplishes a lot of things that we probably aren't going to be.

D

Able to do next year, my hope was that we could, you know, come to some some some some reductions.

C

And- and I think you make a good point and that leads me to again- and I know.

C

I've probably said parking garage and parking study more than anybody in the group, but maybe.

C

Maybe, when we're earlier than this next year, we need to say, do we want to give raises or do.

C

We want to build a parking garage. Do we want to park at ascension church, you know. Do we want to.

C

Look for surface parking for everyone and not do the garage. Maybe it's something we can't afford.

C

So maybe you're in the future, but which I don't disagree, the parking garage problem, the problem.

A

Set in this complex, I mean it's not new news they've been working this for quite some time as.

A

Far as trying to purchase properties and getting to a point with what they want to accomplish,.

A

In the complex and what the needs are, so I mean it's not like an overnight. Oh total parking garage.

A

It's been years in conversation concept, um to a point now, where it's okay, how do we move forward.

A

Where it dovetails with the complex growth itself, so um nobody that's going to be achieving or.

A

Becoming appreciative of all these gains, okay is going to be upset that we're masking this.

A

Nobody, oh, I know nobody in the county. For the most part, it's going to be very upset because.

A

Their taxes are not going to increase and they're going to feel comfortable that all the services.

A

That they are getting today they're going to get tomorrow, yeah! So they're, not you know the.

A

But you know we say a lot of us and I am too fiscally conservative and conscious.

A

Of how we're spending our dollars, my my concern is that it's going to be.

A

Like we said those herd of elephants and and lots of bears, are I mean all coming together.

A

um And uh if we don't posture ourselves in a way that those out years look cleaner than they do now,.

A

I mean it's going to be very, very, very ugly, um but, like I said everybody who benefits from this.

A

They're going to be like, oh hey, this is great, no recreation tax. Everybody gets their raises.

A

Everybody gets the positions, the systems, you know you know everything's going to happen. Nobody.

A

I believe he's gonna be upset about this, um but that isn't necessarily where we need to be.

A

As responsible to establish this budget, that's my concern what about this, and this is totally.

C

Backward for fiscal conservatives, you had 9 million in here using cash.

C

Not getting a bond, what happens if we take 45 four and a half million of that.

C

And say: fine, we're not taking it out of the budget, we're now going to bond that amount. Does that do.

C

About the same thing, you add another 150 000 a year in debt service or something like that. Yeah.

E

400 000. yeah uh yeah 225 is the first year, so this would you'd have to multiply all those by 1.5.

C

So again, that's fixing this year hurting the next years. Like I said it's back, you know right.

C

I always tell people you don't finance something that doesn't appreciate so, uh like I said it's.

J

Backwards, that's financially does that, so that really doesn't make it any better than joe's idea.

B

Well, like I said it helps it would make today work it just right deepens your problems for the future.

C

I don't think this is good, but it's the best idea we've had today.

A

It's going to put it it's going to put it on the backs of us to establish this, which will end up.

A

Creating a larger revenue requirement next year and for the out years. That is the assumption.

A

That should be made by doing it this way. So if you know we are owning up to that, you know I mean.

A

It's it's not a fact, it's an assumption. You know, and you take assumptions as far as you can until.

A

You turn into facts, but the assumption is that, because of the situation right now, if this is.

A

You know what, where we want to go, the assumption is that it's going to be put back on us.

A

To put further on neo, I don't see the backs of the taxpayers, I mean that's kind of weird saying, but.

A

To find more revenue that our county is going to have to fund.

A

And um it'd be nice to say well that may not happen, or this may happen right now. It's a pretty.

A

Strong assumption that this is happening, and it's going to get worse so and then we're going to be.

A

Looking at not just recreation but other revenues, streams on how we're going to be able to do it.

A

um So so it is, it's either doing now or do it, and this is kind of what uh you know karen said, the.

A

Other day you know in her you know: leather, wood, not leather men. She said, don't don't tax us now.

A

Taxes later and do it once not twice and there's there is a there's logic to it. um You know I just.

A

My it's not like, I'm so much against it. It's just. Are we willing to expect that? Are we willing to.

A

Put that you know in front of us and say this is the assumption that needs to be made and starting.

A

Early next year, how this all turns out, because you're right, the state has no clue they're, so so.

A

Confusing every time I read what they're doing I, I really don't know what they're doing it's.

D

A mess right, it is and don't watch any of the meetings. It's it's weird. I mean it's so.

A

And my problem is they're going to do what's best for prince george, prince george's baltimore county.

A

Baltimore city and others that's going to leave us in a position and we're going to have to fund.

A

In a way that we will not have the revenue of the fund unless we make the changes, I know I'm going.

A

On about this, but that's either tax now and later or don't tax now tax later and a higher amount.

A

Or cut expenses and yeah, where, where are we and we don't have enough time to discuss it today? Ems and fire.

C

um Does that need to slow down? Can we keep doing what we're doing with that.

B

What speed we go at, I would say, is not really relevant to this conversation.

B

Whatever, whatever total cost we're going to get to we're going to get to, if you want it.

B

To be less, it would be re-examining the model of how we're going to provide it.

D

So I think that is the discussion we are going to have as a board. We are supposed to meet with.

D

The esac in june, I think, yeah they are going to be telling us that we might not make our.

D

Numbers and that you know overtime is going to accomplish a lot of the things we need to.

D

Accomplish but I've always told them- and you know I think, is completely logical- that at some point.

D

We as a board take a look at everything, so sure I think that's a healthy approach. I I command.

D

The previous board, because things you know you got the right people and the right strategy in.

D

Place but it will be timed, but I think blueprint it was. It was easier because we have yeah, it was.

A

It was a one one target. We were going you're right, but now we got that and blueprint. That's.

A

What so I appreciate that you know comment, but it was easier yeah. You know it's it's uh there.

D

Was hard decisions to make, but it was probably uh a lot less less complicated but by the the.

D

Financial situations, but uh just to add that note to commissioner kyler's comment: no yeah.

D

I think it's absolutely our due diligence to to take a hard look at everything, but I think.

D

They expect they expect that they know we're going to do that. Yeah on everything, because.

C

I understand you know, I'm very conservative, but we've increased the sheriff and safety.

C

We've increased fire protection and ems blueprints, increasing our schools, whether we like it or not,.

C

And so in theory, the quality of life in carroll county in the service we're.

C

Giving people is improving and to think no one should ever pay for that is probably naive or.

C

We need to drop back and say we really can't do all this, and then I didn't even mention a.

C

Landfill, that's not going to cost a penny or two in the future. You know it's! It's a lot of.

C

Issues coming and what you just said is our core challenge: we've taken on huge new costs without.

B

Ever having a conversation about, how is this going to to work and that's what you're wrestling right.

A

Right so yeah I mean you, you summed it up very well and if the expectations are for people to.

A

Pay for the services that they're getting. They only do it in a certain way and that's through.

A

Different three different revenue streams. You know, for the most part I mean there's fees and.

A

Stuff like that for other, but that need to be looked at and if we're willing to do it now.

A

For this fiscal year, then we do it now if we understand the assumptions that are being put.

A

In front of us that it's going to be a very large amount of money that you know will have.

A

To be dealt with next fiscal year- and I don't know what that equation looks like, but I'm sure.

A

Ted, you can figure that out with your team in preparing us what that would look like.

A

Not now I'm saying for next fiscal year with what the deficit is going to look like or the.

A

I mean, and I think it's one of two ways of doing it and I think it's obvious.

C

All right, unless something wild happens between now and tuesday, we're not going to have a four.

C

To one vote to raise any kind of taxes, I just don't see that happening, so maybe this.

C

Is the the best option and we've got what we're going to say is. This was probably the easy year.

A

So yeah, so so with that said, I mean just getting the the temperatures. There's no.

A

Willingness on moving recognition at this point- I don't know out of five.

A

Okay, so I mean yeah, so that's obviously now off the table.

B

There's not going to be a tax increase.

B

And not interested in trying to reduce any services.

B

I think we are left with this fill the gap with one time monday and we're probably done we can.

B

We can figure out, what's the best place, to change something to to fill the hole.

B

These discussions are done and at some point we turn our.

B

Attention to the much bigger problems we're going to face next year.

C

And- and we don't need to vote to say that we're going to vote no, no, we do.

A

What we do today to say we need to say this is a policy once yeah we, we.

A

Need to finish here and then adopt a budget on tuesday, but um but so.

A

Yeah just yeah I mean, if you want to go there, I was just going to open up for discussion.

C

Before you make a motion, so everything is back as it was when we got here and we've.

C

Added the ag and that's going to stay in and then we're going to do your reduction.

C

To make it balance, this part makes sense to everybody. Yes, those were the actions.

A

That were taken right, that's correct! That's where we are now yeah correct. Those were the.

A

Actions that were taken so motion to restore the recreation tax to five dollars per 500 dollars.

F

Including keeping ag preservation from fiscal year 25 ongoing and to direct staff to find the most.

F

A lot reasonable mathematically, rational place to take 3.9 million dollars of.

F

One-Time funding to plug the gap for this year. Actually, oh, no, no you're right all right.

A

um And then applying 1.5 million one time ag for fy24? Yes, that's already in soon, oh okay,.

D

um But in the in the meantime again I would I would encourage at least the thought of.

D

Some you know if it's a slight reduction to some of the increases we've made. You.

D

Look out into fy 29! You see that how they're exponential, how they you know how they operate.

D

Exponentially, I think it is still something that you know if, after this day before tuesday,.

D

Something to consider, I still think it's something to consider. Maybe we're not reducing things by a.

D

Percentage but you got to realize that half a percentage over the next five years of.

D

Budgeting, it's a significant amount of money, so you know if we can do that, if we can find a way.

D

To agree to do that, it can be less than some of the things I've mentioned. There is some benefit.

D

Down the road, just I apologize say it one more time: okay, so I I've sat here and I've made some.

D

Some pretty, I don't think bold, maybe yeah yeah. I made some suggestions on reductions and one.

D

Of the things I've mentioned- and I think another commissioners mentioned it- is the salary increases.

D

And I mentioned taking it down to three and a half that was not agreed to. That was not agreed to by.

D

This commission, I understand that, but any even any small reductions when you look at the budget.

D

Exponentially through fy 99, you know you multiply all that by five I mean it's a significant. It is.

D

A significant amount of money either way you're gonna make a friendly or friendly amendment to.

F

Reduce salaries from that not right now, no because I I think that it's not that simple, because we've.

D

Got different types of increases to deal with and again you know not not penalizing people.

D

Not trying to make it harder on people, but we really are budgeting for four.

D

Years when you spend any ongoing recurring money, I mean we all know that right so.

D

Just I would just consider I would just throw that out there in in anticipation a tuesday.

A

I agree. Thank you well that was sort of the question it did that ted asked earlier on. I.

I

Sounded like the board was coming to agreement that this would be yes budget and then therefore,.

I

Then you wouldn't need a tuesday, but so you're talking about or a third, no no, but.

G

Your conversation is for further discussion and thoughts moving forward, not this well.

D

Well, my understanding! Well so, what's tuesday, for if we meet tuesday because we were planning on.

D

Meeting tuesday up until I guess, do we need to meet tuesday or not so the original schedule.

I

Was for no, this, after and for tuesday and thursday work session next week with adoption, the following.

I

Week on thursday, the following week, the the board last week asked for this afternoon session.

I

um And- um and so we have this one and you've had it or having it.

I

um And technically on the books, there's a tuesday and a thursday, but um the thought was.

I

That you may not need them if you reached agreement on yeah on the budget and it's.

I

Sounded I mean it does sounds like maybe, commissioner garen's not there, but it did.

I

Sound like that, maybe the others were there that this would be your budget.

I

Does that all make sense? Yes, yes, so I guess back to that, are you there or what I'm I'm there I'd.

D

Rather, use that surplus money than have their tax increase, I realize that everything's about choices.

D

And I'm willing to make that choice if there's room for further discussion about that budget, I.

D

Was just asking that my fellow commissioners at least consider that, as an alternative before we.

D

Vote on this budget that you know again these these were these ongoing funds. This, the the.

D

Recurring costs they're exponential, so so I think you're saying you're willing to vote now this this.

C

Is where we want to head right now, but you'd like to see us meet tuesday and talk about potential.

C

Cuts or would or do you guys feel like we're done for now, and we need to talk about the future. Well,.

D

If there's no, uh if there's no interest in doing that, I mean that's why I threw it out.

D

There I think, it's something that's important to at least consider whether it's I mean we.

D

Can vote on whether to meet on tuesday or not if, commissioner garen, if you want to meet on tuesday,.

F

To discuss some potential cuts, I have no objection to that, but I think right now the hurdle is just.

F

Getting past this particular point, but if you want to meet again on tuesday, I've got no problem.

F

With that, what's currently scheduled for thursday again, so the original schedule was for these work.

I

Sessions like this to be two tuesday and thursday afternoon, with adoption the following thursday.

I

um uh The thought of the board last week, when they asked for this session to be in uh added, was to.

I

Maybe adopt next thursday, but if you, but but staff needs about a week to put adoption together so to.

I

Speak if if we want to meet one more time, so we have two, you guys would love to see it be tuesday.

C

Not thursday, yes, yes, so we have tuesday scheduled right now at 1pm, yeah yeah. I think I think we owe.

A

It all them, if we're going to do it, does that work for everybody yeah. It may be a shorter.

A

One and that's something we need to say tuesday, we're done. um I still need a second second, okay,.

A

Can I see the.

A

Yeah that one more time.

A

A

Motion is made now. Second, is there any discussion on where we are now with the working budget.

A

Seen here, none all in favor aye. I need a motion to adjourn so moved. Second, any discussion, one.

C

Question are we meeting tuesdays yeah? Okay sounds good; okay, all in favor, all right.