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From YouTube: Blockchain Hub Davos 2023 | Day 1
Description
DAY 1: RESTORING TRUST IN DIGITAL ASSETS
Speakers will examine how the industry navigates the myriad challenges posed by a series of high-profile events over the past year, how to introduce more responsible regulation that ensures necessary safeguards are in place – and how our relationship with digital assets will continue to evolve over time.
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A
All
right
good
afternoon
and
welcome
to
the
official
day
one
of
the
blockchain
Hub
Davos
for
those
of
you
who
had
the
opportunity
to
stop
by
yesterday
for
our
special
day
Zero
programming
you
were
in
for
a
treat,
you
had
an
excellent
fireside
chat
with
Anthony
scaramucci
David
branch
and
Michael
Casey
that
offered
some
very
interesting
Reflections
on
the
last
couple
of
months
today.
Of
course,
we're
looking
specifically
at
storing
trust
in
digital
assets.
A
After
a
fairly
tumultuous
2022
we're
looking
ahead
at
2023
and
we're
kicking
things
off
with
our
first
block
of
programming,
that's
taking
a
look
at
Finance,
Investments
and
the
future
of
blockchain
and,
of
course,
no
matter,
no
better
man
rather
to
open
us
up
with
his
keynote
on
the
era
of
adoption
and
the
implications
for
investors.
Please
join
me
in
giving
a
very
warm
welcome
to
Olaf
Honeyman,
co-founder
and
CIO
of
cbvc.
B
David
Branch
said
yesterday
the
chairman
of
consensus
Capital
that
everything's
moving
so
fast,
the
last
few
years
in
terms
of
Technology
advancement
and
looking
on
opportunities
and
evaluating
New
Opportunities.
Well,
we
think
that's
going
to
continue
so
one
of
our
big
takeaways
is.
Innovation
has
never
been
as
fast
as
today,
yet
it
will
never
be
as
slow
ever
again,
so
it's
only
going
to
get
faster
from
here
on
in
now.
B
Obviously,
when
you
look
at
our
space,
the
last
half
year
was
dominated
by
negative
news.
Around
crypto,
around
General
market
prices,
FTX
and
the
like
underlying
what
has
been
happening
is
what
a
lot
of
people
in
the
broader
media
space
may
have
missed.
Hopefully,
a
lot
of
us
in
the
space
hasn't.
So
if
you
just
look
at
projects
that
have
been
announced
or
happened
or
initiated
in
the
last
three
months
alone,
you'll
see
a
lot
of
big
names.
There.
B
You
see
a
lot
of
cooperation
between
big
names
or
between
big
names
and
projects
from
our
space
you
see
the
financial
industry,
you
see
consumer
Brands
and
you
see
different
types
of
adoption.
That's
why
we
believe
the
next
24
months
will
really
be
the
era
of
adoption
in
a
lot
of
sectors
of
our
technology
space
and
want
to
kick
things
off
with
a
discussion
on
what
does
that
mean
for
us,
as
investors
against
is
still
relatively
uncertain,
economic
backdrop
and
Outlook
in
a
more
broader
sense?
B
Now,
when
you
look
at
you
start
with
the
banks
for
the
banks,
there's
on
financial
institutions,
there's
two
topics:
one
is
crypto
and
the
other
one
is
technology.
Adoption,
We
Believe
for
the
end
game
winners,
the
largest
banks,
the
largest
institutions,
they're
all
bought
in
by
now.
They
may
not
have
said
it
publicly
just
from
a
PR
public
scrutiny
perspective.
B
We
believe
they're
all
in
both
on
crypto,
and
you
just
look
at
some
of
the
examples
here,
if
you're
having
BlackRock
partner
with
coinbase,
if
you
see
Fidelity,
issuing
Bitcoin
and
and
ether
ethereum
ETFs,
if
you've
seen
Goldman
working
on
bitcoin
backed
loans
to
their
customers,
clear
sign
in
our
mind,
they're,
all
in
in
terms
of
what
this
technology
can
mean
for
banking
as
a
whole.
Anyone
who
is
from
that
field
also
corporates
and
treasurers
who
form
this
field.
B
B
One
word
on
crypto:
obviously,
prices
don't
need
to
speak
about
it,
but
the
actual
adoption,
so
people
having
accounts,
if
you
kind
of
you
know
even
that
out
on
a
long-term
view,
is
steadily
increasing.
So
more
and
more
people
hold
also
meaningful
investment
in
crypto
and
if
you
kind
of
overlay
the
adoption
curve
versus
internet
very
interesting
similarities
here
now,
obviously
there's
a
market
out
there
and
and
that's
quite
multifaceted
right.
You
have
a
financial
and
a
crypto
crisis.
B
If
you
will,
you
can
now
speculate,
how
much
of
that
is
truly
crypto
versus
overall
Market,
there
is
still
leading
economists
say
a
50
recession
risk
there
is
inflation,
fear,
there's
a
social
socio-economic
environment.
This
is
uncertain,
but
also
there's
some
positive
news
coming
out
of
corporates
in
terms
of
full
order
books
in
terms
of
struggling
to
actually
get
skills
labor.
So
some
of
the
data
is
actually
not
so
bad
so
question
that
we
ask
once
that
inflation
issue
levels
out.
B
What
does
it
mean
for
markets
and
the
economy
now
for
us
as
investors,
and
hopefully
this
some
of
the
stuff
that
the
panel
can
take
up?
There's
10
themes
that
we
consider
as
a
VC
investor
in
this
environment.
First
of
all,
right
now
in
the
current
market
we
think
there's
risk
on
both
sides.
I
saw
y
combinator
writing
a
little
message
to
their
startup
saying,
prepare
for
the
next
six
to
12
months
as
the
peak
of
the
downturn
that's
right,
but
for
an
investor.
B
The
peak
of
the
downturn
is
also
the
peak
of
The
Upside
opportunity.
So
that's
the
time
to
invest
in
an
intelligent
way.
Question
obviously,
then,
is
on
timing,
a
few
other
things
and
maybe
just
a
quick
take
on
it.
D5
versus
C
file.
In
our
mind,
the
jury
is
still
out.
Will
it
be
both?
Will
it
be
one?
Will
it
be
the
other
in
particular,
when
you
see
what
the
financial
institutions
are
doing
and
how
all
in
they
are
metaverse
in
our
mind,
is
still
a
question
of.
B
B
B
as
an
end
game,
there
will
be
a
massive
percentage
of
failure,
and
so
you
know
even
more
so
on
a
percentage
basis
than
regular
startup
VC
investment,
where
you
maybe
assume
kind
of
a
failure
rate
of
70
of
write-offs
on
projects
in
early
stage,
startup
L1
will
be
much
higher,
is
our
take
for
us.
A
big
question
going
into
this
here
is
how
blockchain
can
help
Ai
and
how
it
can
cross
fertilize.
B
For
us,
a
big
question
going
in
the
next
two
or
three
years
is
how
Quantum
Computing
will
influence
in
particular
layer
one
and
you
know,
potentially
bring
totally
new
protocols.
That
may
then
be
the
end
game,
winners
and
clearly,
needless
to
say,
as
an
investor
diversification
and
a
focus
on
founder
teams
and
their
ability
to
Pivot
is
really
what
we're
looking
at.
So
those
are
some
of
the
themes
we
look
at
from
a
venture
capital
perspective,
investing
in
the
space
right
now
and
then,
as
cbvc
and
I.
B
Think
also
Casper
Labs
mentioned
that
yesterday
for
us
as
an
industry.
What
we
think
is
important
in
the
coming
years
is
that
we
focus
much
more
on
speaking
and
hyping
the
use
cases
as
opposed
to
trying
to
explain
the
technology,
because
people
will
understand
the
use
case
much
more
intuitively
than
trying
to
explain
the
technology
so
with
that
I
hope
you
have
an
interesting
day
and
after
the
panel.
A
Thank
you.
Thank
you.
Olaf.
We
made
the
comment
yesterday
that
we
were
going
to
try
to
run
the
program
on
stage
with
the
efficiency
of
a
Swiss
Train
Station,
but
that
doesn't
make
it
any
easier
to
kick
your
boss
off
stage.
So
sorry,
but
you
did
very
well
on
the
timing.
So
thank
you
and
with
that,
it's
a
great
lead-in
into
our
very
first
panel,
which
takes
a
look
at
blockchain
investing
in
a
post,
FDX
world.
This
panel
is
moderated
by
pranav
Sharma,
the
general
partner
at
the
Woodstock
fund.
A
He
has
joined
on
stage
by
Sami
kochon
investment
manager
at
swisscom
ventures,
as
well
as
Lucas
partner
and
head
of
Investments
at
CBBC,
Michael,
Lintz
partner
at
Golden,
Gate,
Ventures
and
last
but
not
least,
Nicole
Patrice
de
member
strategic
advisor
at
the
space
social
club.
Welcome
to
the
stage.
C
Hi
everyone
fantastic
to
be
here
and
good
to
see.
You
know
so
many
Curious
faces
here
in
terms
of
you
know,
seeing
what
does
the
Post
FDX
world
look
like?
Probably
we'll
break
this
session
down
into
multiple
pieces
before
that?
Let
me
just
you
know,
share
with
you
that
you
know,
I
was
checking
with
cliff
and
I'm
sure.
C
If
we
don't
do
a
good
job,
you
know
please
stand
up.
Please
ask
those
questions.
I.
Think
Adam
was
given
a
brief
that
if,
if
required,
throw
something
at
in
the
panelist
as
well,
if
they
need
be
so
very
briefly
from
my
side,
I'm
pranav,
Sharma
I
am
GP
at
Woodstock
fund
and
Woodstock
has
a
name.
It
surprises
a
lot
of
people.
C
Woodstock
is
supposed
to
be
very
small
gathering
of
people
who
were
who
felt
you
know
that
us
was
walked
on
you're
fighting
Wars
of
you
know
some
other
nation
in
Vietnam
and
very
small
gathering
blew
up
in
many
ways.
You
know
blockchain
is
very
similar.
It
was
supposed
to
be
a
very
simple
white
paper.
Satoshi
right
and
it
landed
up.
You
know
becoming
a
movement,
and
so
many
people
are,
you
know,
sort
of
congregating.
Here,
while
we
are
in
a
post,
FTX
World
a
lot
of
people
label
it
very
differently.
C
Some
people
call
it
fraud.
Some
people
call
it
flawed.
Some
people
call
it
Adventure.
Some
people
call
it
misadventure,
but
it
landed
up.
You
know
creating
a
lot
of
eyeballs
on
one
side,
but
the
promise
of
the
blockchain
blockchain
Still
Remains.
So
hopefully
we
do
a
lot
of
Justice
in
this
panel,
because
we
have
some
really
amazing
people
to
explore
that
you
know
what
the
future
beholds
and
what
are
the
things
that
will
definitely
shift.
C
You
know
forward
and
my
own
experience
of
you
know,
15
years
in
financial
services,
teaches
me
that
if
there
are
markets,
there'll
be
participants,
there'll
be
good
actors,
there'll,
be
bad
actors
and
there'll
be
people
who
will
do
things,
sort
of
ignorance,
there'll,
be
people
who
will
be
very
deliberate
and
create
very
interesting
Market
situations
over
a
span
of
time.
As
long
as
the
market
forces
remain
intact.
Eventually,
the
participants
will
benefit
will
end
up.
You
know,
staying
for
a
longer
period
of
time.
C
I
still
remember
that
you
know
my
a
gentleman
whom
I
used
to
work
with.
He
was
like
typically
people
who
see
three
Cycles,
as
investors
they'll
end
up
making
money
in
a
market
most
of
the
people
end
up.
You
know
moving
away
from
the
market
after
seeing
one
single
cycle,
and
from
from
from
that
point,
let
me
see
if
I
can
you
know
sort
of
you
know
pass
on
the
mic
as
in
Provo
to
see
that
you
know
how
they
can
introduce
into
themselves.
So
maybe,
ladies
first
Nicole
over
to
you.
E
I've
had
a
very
interesting
life,
I
started
doing
technology
in
the
mid
90s.
We
were
taking
credit
cards
on
the
internet
and
we
were
selling
tickets
to
Raves
and
when
Peter
Thiel,
my
old
boss
asked
why
I
had
so
many
clients
in
the
mid
to
late
90s
I
said
because
my
clients
were
buying
drugs
from
strangers
in
the
middle
of
a
field.
They
had
no
issue
putting
their
credit
card
on
a
website
in
1998.
he
hit
a
different
Market
than
I
did
and
had
different
numbers
than
I.
E
E
Building
a
recording
studio
in
hip-hop
and
rappers,
draw
a
lot
of
attention
and
when
you
have
Eminem
in
the
recording
studio
and
his
Entourage,
like
you,
get
a
lot
of
reared
people
showing
up,
and
we
had
to
like
get
to
a
point
where
we
were
dealing
with
armed
guards
and
security.
So
by
the
time
I
got
to
Founders
fund
Justin
Rockefeller
had
asked
me
why
I
wasn't
nervous
in
these
rooms
and
I
said
no
one's
trying
to
shoot
me
like
this
is
great
I
love
it.
F
F
Sure,
Sami
kachon
investment
manager
at
swisscom
ventures
started
my
career
back
in
the
days
in
banking,
moved
over
to
strategy
Consulting
for
a
few
years,
they've
been
around
eight
years,
co-founded
two
ventures
in
the
blockchain
space
and
then
joined
basically
swisscon
Ventures
to
cover
fintech
and
crypto,
and
this
is
what
I
do
today
and
yeah.
Maybe
a
few
words
about
swisscom
Ventures
corporate
VC
of
swisscom,
a
little
bit
of
hybrid
one.
75
percent
of
the
capital
is
coming
from
Swiss
Pension
funds
and
institutional
investors.
F
G
Michael
Lins
I
am
based
in
Singapore.
You
couldn't
guess
it
by
looking
at
me,
but
I've
been
there
for
the
past
10
years,
I
run
a
fund
called
Golden
Gate
Ventures,
which
is
founded
in
Singapore,
which
also
makes
no
sense.
We
do
early
stage,
VC
I
also
invest
in
invest
in
math
3..
We'll
talk
about
3dac,
later
I
guess,
but
yeah
Singapore
has
been,
has
been
an
amazing
journey.
So
far,
I
focus
most
of
my
time
on
institutional
fundraising
for
both
the
funds
and
our
portfolio.
G
H
Up
sure
my
name
is
Lucas
Etter
I'm,
a
partner
and
head
of
Investments
here
at
cbvc,
and
we
have
to
honor
this
year
again
to
organize
this
blockchain
Hub,
together
with
with
Casper
and
essentially
we're
a
VC
with
a
plus
meaning.
We
are
Venture
Capital
arm,
but
we
also
have
CV
Labs,
where
we
organize
all
conferences
and
events
where
we
unite
the
ecosystem
in
the
blockchain
industry,
because
when
we
started
out
more
than
five
years
ago,
we
realized
the
industry
is
so
immature
and
still
is
today.
H
C
G
Oh
man,
there
are
flowers
everywhere
people
we
were
all
very
happy,
I
I,
think
prefdx.
If
I
look
at
2021,
specifically
at
least
I'm
I'm
47
years
old,
so
I've
seen
a
few
of
those
of
those
Cycles
I've.
Never
ever
seen
this
much
Capital
going
into
the
ecosystem,
and
at
this
at
this
pace,
I
think
people
were
Keen
to
jump
into
deals
fairly
fast.
If
my
neighbor
would
invest
in
a
deal,
then
I
would
go,
invest
in
a
deal
without
doing
the
proper
DD.
G
D
G
Got
and
that
was
that
was
kind
of
the
center
for
me
for
a
pre-fdx,
we
got
a
little
sense
of
FTX
in
Singapore,
fairly
early
on
with
sort
of
two
instances:
dokwon
and
then
of
course,
three
IC
and
and
those
were
big
shocks
in
the
ecosystem
in
Singapore.
Specifically,
so
we
got
a
bit
of
a
taste
early
on
prefix
as
well.
C
Got
it
and
you
know,
Nicole,
there's
a
reason
why
I'm?
Let's
say
you
know
getting
this
question
Nicole
and
so
Nicole
you
come
from.
Let's
say:
Founders
fund.
You
know
typical
web
2.
You
know
background
early
stage,
investing
supporting
working
with
you
know:
pensions,
you're,
mentioning
you
after
this
you're
going
to
Norway,
etc,
etc.
How
do
you
see
this
spanning
out
and,
of
course,
you
know
it
also
links
back
to
Michael's
own
background,
because
in
a
way
there's
an
umbilical
chord
with
tamasek
right.
So
how
do
you
see
our
art?
E
E
Some
people
have
joined
me
on
these
trips
and
you
know
you
a
lot
of
it's
just
seeing
if
you
can
get
along,
but
they're,
they're
beholden
to
the
country,
they're
citizens
and
they're
very
thoughtful
in
how
they
maneuver
through
and
you
know,
Nikola
they
haven't
been
doing.
Venture
they've
been
sticking
to
really
traditional
stuff,
and
you
know
I'm
hoping
I'm
going
to
crack
that
code
with
them
and
see
if
we
can
move
them
into
Venture
which,
where
I'm
quite
a
big
fan
but
but
there's
also
just
moments
where
it
just
takes
time.
E
No
amount
of
meetings
will
do
it.
Eventually,
people
break
it
takes
a
minute.
But
if
you
just
keep
at
it,
you
can
kind
of
read
into
people,
but
you
need
to
if
you
don't
have
access
to
Special
Forces,
it's
a
lot
harder
to
vet.
But
if
you
do
have
access
into
like
say
the
U.S
state
Department,
you
can
usually
get
a
quicker
read
on
people.
C
That's
a
good
response
and
now
I
think
I'll
bring
both
of
you
in
that
okay,
so
both
of
you
are
European,
let's
say:
focused
corporate
VC
build
ecosystem
in
Switzerland.
Like
you
know,
of
course
we
are
here.
You
know
thanks
to
this
ecosystem
that
you
have
built
so
and
traditionally,
Europe
has
been
very
conservative
right
and,
of
course,
U.S
Singapore
money
coming
in
from
China,
India,
etc,
etc
has
been
a
lot
more
at
the
edge.
F
Paddle
yeah
I
think
maybe
it
should
add
what
Michael
said
earlier.
I
think
what
we
have
seen
is
a
big
fomo
in
the
market
right,
everybody
wants
to
dance
to
the
music
and
what
happened
is
ultimately
reputational
investors
such
as
Sequoia
and
Paradigm,
basically
joining
deals
within
24
hours
by
at
the
cost
of
due
diligence
right
at
some
point,
you
need
to
do
your
homework.
You
need
to
go
through
the
books
and
have
a
look.
Does
everything
fly
team
technology
set
up,
Market,
Etc
and
I?
F
Think
that
will
not
happen
anytime
soon,
again
in
terms
of
VC
investors
being
so
loose
on
on
the
job,
so
I
think
what
we
will
see
now
going
forward
is
a
much
more
longer
times
until
rounds
close.
We
might
see
smaller
rounds
as
well
at
significant,
lower
valuations
and
here
I
guess
there
is
no
change
in
perspective.
If
you
are
a
corporate
VC
or
if
you're
a
traditional
VC
I
think
that
there
will
be
still
cases
out
there
I
mean
I.
F
Think,
roughly
20
billion
has
been
invested
in
the
ecosystem
last
year
and
if
you
have
a
look
where
the
money
flowed
into,
it
was
around
infrastructure
and
rep.
Three
developer
tools
and
I
think
we're
still
at
that
stage.
Despite
the
Innovation
Cycles,
we
have
seen
over
the
last
years.
We
are
still
at
that
stage
where
we
have
to
get
the
homework
and
the
basis
of
everything
right
in
order
to
build
real
real
world
use
cases
or
use
cases.
Yeah.
H
I
think
I
mean
I
fully
agree
to
that
and
I
think
also,
if
you
put
things
into
perspective,
I
think
at
relatively
so
the
amount
of
capital
that
has
been
lost
through,
let's
say
by
Sequoia,
is
obviously
an
absurd
amount
of
capital.
But
if
you
put
it
into
perspective
of
their
overall
fund,
I
think
it's
relatively
low,
and
just
taking
that
example,
and
and
putting
as
a
benchmark
for
the
whole
industry
is
I.
H
H
That
is
it's
not
just
by
not
doing
the
due
diligence,
but
also
by
by
the
lack
of
opportunities
or
as
soon
as
there
was
something
seemingly
good
everybody
chomped
on
it
and
I
think
that's
how
it
all
came
together
and
and
likely
with
with
increasing
price
of
of
capital.
This
will
decline
a
bit
again,
but
there's
still
so
much
capital
in
the
market
to
to
be
deployed
yeah
so
but
I
think
in
essence.
C
G
G
For
me,
it
hasn't
helped
the
ecosystem,
because,
if
you
throw
out
any
diligence,
because
you
need
a
certain
part
of
ownership,
it
it
doesn't
help
the
founder,
because
the
founder
is
going
to
raise
the
next
round
of
funding
and
the
VC
is
going
to
tell
you.
We
need
2x,
your
last
vibration,
so
you
know
good
luck
and
I
think
that
is
sort
of
also
sort
of
part
of
kind
of
this.
This
issue
we
have
right
now.
C
And
this
is
also
a
web
to
issue
in
many
ways,
because
ultimately,
the
private
Equity
Firm
firms
have
to
step
in
and
the
point
you're
making
is
this
pressure
to
deploy
so
31
billion
I
was
reading.
Some
statistics,
31
billion,
is
what
flew
in
into
the
space
last
year
and
30
billion
abouts.
You
know
practically
last
to
last
year-
and
this
was
despite
you
know
the
sixth
month
of
crisis.
In
that
we
are
experiencing
macro
and
micro,
you
know
included.
C
So
this
is
interesting.
So
in
a
way,
thank
you
very
much,
for
you
know
capturing
what
really
happened.
Pre
FTX,
you
know
it
captures
the
sentiment
of
corporate
VC.
In
some
ways
you
know
sober
and
investors
and
and
so
and
so
forth.
What
does
FTX
like?
Why
did
FTX
actually
happen?
Was
it
fraud?
Was
it
flawed?
F
Can
a
little
bit
of
all
right,
but
if
you
really
want
to
highlight
two
things,
I
think
it
was
lack
of
corporate
governance
and
and
lack
of
compliance
overall,
right
and
I.
Think
FTX
was
a
very
bad
event
for
the
whole
industry,
because
in
a
pre
FTX
world,
if
you
want
to
say
it
that
way,
FTX
was
basically
in
every
exit
scenario
that
we
basically
calculated
in
every
investment
hypothesis.
It
was
the
go-to
exit
or
the
acquirer.
So
all
of
a
sudden
it
took
three
days
and
FTX
was
out.
We
all
know
that
story.
F
So,
ultimately,
what
happened
is
that
we
had
our
Bernie
Madoff
event
in
crypto.
So
now
I
think
the
world
has
to
understand
that
also
the
financial
world
has
continued
after
Benny,
Madoff
and
I
think
we
are
now
in
that
in
that
phase
and
I
really
hope
that
that
the
trust
that
basically
took
a
hit
here
to
be
very
honest,
we'll
come
back
to
the
market.
It
will
take
time
but
I
think
one
of
what
what
we
hear
from
our
portfolio
companies
and
from
the
market
is
that
financial
institutions
Bank
Etc.
F
Second
thing
I
have
here
to
mention
is
basically
what
does
it
mean
from
a
from
a
venture
capital
or
from
a
Founder's
perspective?
Is
that
now
we
have
kind
of
achieved
a
high
valuation
from
a
Founder's
perspective,
however,
your
Revenue
has
to
grow
into
that,
and
ultimately,
the
startups
that
are
able
to
do
so
will
be
the
ones
who
are
also
able
to
fundraise.
D
H
Point
I
mean
I.
Think
one
thing
is
also
to
highlight
so
the
failure
of
businesses,
it's
an
essential
part
of
the
Venture
world
right
I-
think
what
happened
with
the
FTX
and
I
think
to
add
to
what
what
was
the
point
of
failure
was
also
lack
of
experience.
I
mean
you
had
20
something
years
old
people
suddenly
managing
I,
don't
know
20
30,
40
billion
of
of
capital,
which
was
absolutely
not
matching
their
experience
and
also
not
their
previous
work
experience
whatsoever.
H
So
that's
one
one
issue,
but
I
think
the
the
main
issue
with
the
FDX
part
was
not
per
se.
The
business
is
failing,
but
that
there
was
so
much
capital
of
customers
and
Retail
clients
involved.
So
if,
if
that
wouldn't
have
happened,
then
it
was
just
the
business
that
failed,
I
think
it
would
be
a
different
story.
H
I
mean
in
any
case
it's
a
complete
disaster
of
for
the
the
whole
industry
in
terms
of
PR,
especially
because
so
much
retail
investors
have
been
have
been
hit
and
who
knows
if
that
money
will
ever
be
and
to
what
degree
recouped,
but,
as
you
said,
with
the
Bernie
Madoff,
so,
unfortunately,
all
Industries
and
especially
financial
industry.
They
we
see
crisis
and
then
typically,
we
grow
stronger
out
of
it,
but
that
doesn't
make
it
better
right.
I
mean
all
the
money
lost
is.
Is
it's.
G
G
G
We
have
to
look
at
profitability
companies.
Fundraising
every
six
to
12
months
doesn't
make
any
sense,
because
you're
forgetting
All
Your,
Business,
Essentials
and
you're
just
driving
who's
going
to
pick
up
the
next
fundraise
like
literally
a
year
and
a
half
later
we
forget
about
all
of
those
principles,
throw
them
at
the
window
and
go
back
into
this
again.
So
for
me,
it
is
like
the
Mantra
of
it
has
to
be
growth
at
all.
G
Cost,
doesn't
matter
how
you
achieve
it
as
long
as
you
get
it,
and
you
get
to
your
next
round
and
we've
all
danced
at
music,
I
I,
don't
think
anyone,
okay,
a
few
of
us
might
have
might
have
raised
their
fingers,
but
you
know
in
the
end,
for
instance,
as
an
early
space
investor.
If
my
company
gets
a
100x
markup
on
the
next
round,
I'm
happy.
D
C
I
think
that's
a
good
point
and
you
know
Nicole,
let's
say
before
I
bring.
You
in
I
also
want
to
sort
of
give
you
the
context
of,
let's
say
the
fraud
that
you
experience
right.
So
if
you
let's
say
you
know
beyond
responding
to
the
comments
that
came,
if
you
can
also
highlight
the
fraud
element
of
it,.
E
E
His
whole
eye
was
swollen
up
and
I'm
like
what
happened
and
he's
like
FTX
and
I
was
like
damn.
I
was
like.
Why
are
you
here
like?
Go
to
go
to
Big
Sur
like,
but
it
was.
It
was
really
sad
that
first
morning,
as
it
started,
breaking
a
few
of
us
as
you
can
imagine,
we're
on
a
single
signal
conversation-
and
you
know
everyone's
kind
of
started
trading.
Some
information
and
I
was
really
sad
to
see
some
friends.
You
know
their
fathers,
their
husbands
and
I
was
more
concerned
about
them.
C
And-
and
you
know
okay
so
what's
emerging
here-
is
that
let's
say
post
FTX
is
about
a
lot
of
prudence.
That
means
and
I'm
just
throwing
this.
You
know
as
this
covers
right
so
so
the
question
here
is
that
that
means
that
you
know
hand
on
the
heart
and
will
not
be
chasing
hot
deals.
Anymore
will
be
focused
on
thesis.
Is
that
the
new
paradigm
at.
F
Until
we
forget
about
it
again,
it's
about
finding
the
next
Amazons
and
Googles
right.
Think
back
I
mean
Myspace
AOL
whatever,
so
as
it
all
comes
and
Cycles
again,
our
job
is
then
to
find
actually
the
next
winner
and
the
winner
is
now
created,
I
think
in
the
next
12
months,
where
everybody
is
kind
of.
Oh,
do
I
have
enough
cash
to
survive.
What
is
my
Runway
Etc,
whereas
the
ones
who
do
have
enough
cash?
F
They
can
actually
build
and
grab
market
share
and
I
think
these
are
the
plays
that
we're
looking
for
and
again
there's
enough
cash
in
the
market.
So
don't
worry
about
the
funding.
It's
about.
I
mean
talking
to
the
founders
here
in
in
the
audience.
It's
about
making
your
homework,
make
sure
that
you
have
the
the
company
set
up
for
moderate
growth
by
still
managing
your
Runway,
and
this
is
basically
what
I
can
advise
you
and
also
don't
try
to
hunt
the
next
higher
valuation.
E
D
E
Get
the
updates
kind
of
see
what
we
were
looking
at
for
this
year
coming
up
and
he
said
that
they're
stabilizing
themselves
to
not
write
any
checks
this
year.
If
that's
the
case,
you
know
they're
not
rushing.
They
didn't
rush.
Last
year,
they're
very
fortunate.
You
know
February
or
January.
They
announced
I
think
it
was
about
five
billion
dollars
in
their
newest
fund.
G
And
I
think
it's
important
for
us
at
least
as
a
as
a
VC
industry,
to
kind
of
keep
on
speaking
with
Founders.
Even
if
you
don't
write
a
check,
I
was
talking
to
a
farmer
yesterday
evening
and
I'm
sure
she's
in
the
room,
but
she
mentioned
that
she
has
to
apologize
for
after
the
FDX,
because
she's
in
the
blockchain
space.
So
a
lot
of
investors
are
like
oh
yeah.
We
kind
of
put
you
under
the
same
umbrella
and
and
we
kind
of
make
you
apologize.
G
G
E
Will
say
this:
this
came
to
mind
when
the
there
no
story
was
clearly
breaking
I
was
in
San
Francisco
and
I.
Wear
glasses,
sometimes
and
I
took
all
of
my
turtlenecks
and
donated
them
to
a
charity.
So
I
went
mistakenly
wear
one
with
my
hair
in
a
ponytail
and
many
other
women
said
the
same
thing
and
to
this
day
I
won't
touch
a
turtleneck
yeah.
C
And
you
know,
I
mean
there's
a
very
interesting
point
that
came
out.
Let's
say
when
a
crisis
like
this
happens,
you
know
through
the
let's
say
you
know
one
bad
actor.
Let's
say
group
of
Bad
actors.
Essentially
everyone
ends
up.
You
know
getting
labeled
in
a
certain
way
and
people
who
are
authentic
and
who
are
building
something
of
tremendous
value.
They'll
end
up,
you
know
getting
marginalized
and
as
investors
there's
a
massive
responsibility
to
see
that
how
we
can
hear
those
invest,
investment
possibilities.
You
know
with
open
ears,
so
so
this
is
a
good
point.
C
Let
me
sort
of
you
know
also
share
my
perspective
here.
So
my
perspective
is
that
blockchain
as
a
space
has
gone
through
it's
an
open
market.
It
has
gone
through
a
massive
shift,
so
in
2016-17
it
was
white
papers
that
got
you
know,
projects
funded
and
I'm
sure
a
lot
of
investors
landed
up,
putting
50
million
into
this,
and
a
lot
of
them
regret.
You
know
and
a
lot
of
them
vaporized
over
a
span
of
time.
Then
there
was
a
time
wherein
technology
was
the
biggest
buzzword
and
Technology
landed
up.
C
You
know
if
you're
building,
very
Innovative
technology
novelty
novelty
landed
up,
you
know
getting
a
lot
more
capital
in
and
then
there
was
a
phase
wherein
let's
say
you
had
good
operating
models
and
there
was
a
product
Market
fit.
You
got
capital,
n
and
I.
Think
as
Lucas
were
also
touching
upon
that
you
know,
I.
Think
the
age
of
focusing
on
adoption
and
having
statistically
significant
attraction,
which
is
most
sustainable,
is
going
to
be
the
way
for
getting
more
sustainable
funding.
Sustainable
means
that
you
may
get
convertibles
initially.
That
means
you
have
liabilities.
C
You
know
on
almost
like
personal
liabilities.
In
some
cases
right,
it's
a
pass-through.
It's
a
proprietorship
or
a
Founder.
Let's
say
you
know
a
couple
of
partners
coming
together,
but
it
can
also
be
a
lot
more
about.
You
know
creating
that
balance
that
how
the
risk
can
also
be
shared
between
the
investor
and
the
founder.
Otherwise
the
risk
was
completely
on
the
investors.
You
know
to
a
large
extent,
so
so
that
balance
is
inevitable,
and
you
know
that
imbalance
is
coming
in.
C
So
if
I
can,
let's
say,
get
all
of
you
to
Deep
dive
into
some
specific
symptoms
of
what
really
changes
from
a
Founder
perspective,
what
are
the
things
that
you
look
into
founder,
post,
FTX,
it's
like
curtains
are
out
suddenly
waking
up.
The
sun
is
rising
Etc.
What
is
what
what
really
would
you
look
into
a
Founder
that
you
want
to
back
and
this
post
FTX
error,
League
of
Legends?
Sorry,
please
go
for.
F
It
yeah
I
think
there
is
no
change
through
your
post
FTX.
If
you
look
simply
on
the
on
the
founder
itself,
I
think
what
you
want
to
have
is
typically
a
driven
founder,
ideally
serial
entrepreneur
who
basically
has
a
Playbook,
how
to
basically
build
a
product
and
do
the
sales
execution
and
that's
by
the
way,
I
think
a
very
important
point
to
mention
here.
F
F
You
want
to
have
feedback
from
the
market
and
and
therefore
I
think
we
we
really
look
into
sales
and
execution
driven
Founders,
because
they,
from
from
our
Swiss
conventures
perspective,
seem
to
be
the
one
who
are
successful
in
the
long
run,
and
we
have
multiple
Advantage
examples
here
in
in
our
portfolio
that
have
really
proven
that
that
focus
is
is
really
important.
Basically,.
C
G
F
What
do
not
have
is
cash
right,
okay,
because
at
the
end
of
the
day
you
are
hunting
from
funding
round
to
funding
round
and
and
then
coming
back
to
the
to
the
point
like
pre
pre
FTX
era,
I
mean
you
didn't
really
care
about
funding
because
there
was
funding
in
the
market
anyways
right,
but
now
you
have
to
take
care
of
your
cash
Runway
and
really
have
a
speech.
Market
amazing.
H
H
Important
point
is
also
just
because,
just
because
we
have
one
or
two
fraudulent
cases,
we
shouldn't
put
all
the
founders
in
in
doubt
right
because
the
majority
of
them,
which
is
99.9
they
adhere
to
the
to
the
rules
and
and
want
to
want
to
get
things
done,
and
the
0.1
percent
puts
over
obviously
a
shadow
over
everything.
But
we
shouldn't
just
completely
shift
our
mind
and
be
suspicious
about
everybody
right
now,
because
that's
also,
it
creates
sort
of
a
sentiment
of
of
distrust,
which
is
also
not
very
growth.
Fostering
and.
C
You
know
before-
let's
say
both
of
you
jump
in
my
question
was
also
in
the
context
that
corporate
governance
due
to
lens
around
corporate
governance,
whether
they
have
the
mindset
the
boundaries
have,
the
mindset
did
not
exist.
Does
it
change
now,
because
you
brought
about
that
point
about
corporate
governance
being
important.
You
know
post
FDX,.
F
It
it
is
actually
part
of
your
due
diligence
anyway,
I
mean
this.
This
should
be
the
basic
principle
and
I
I.
Guess
you
guys
agree
to
that.
This
is
what
you
need
to
do
and
that
corporate
governments
has
to
be
in
place,
and
that
comes
back
to
what
do
we
need
going
forward.
It
is
continuous
transparency,
corporate
government,
a
stronger
regulatory
framework
in
order
to
basically
set
the
scene
for
the
next
growth
phase
in
the
crypto
space
and
and
I
think
it
will
be
primarily
driven
institutionally,
it's
usually
I.
C
G
We
just
invested
in
a
single
female
Foundry
in
Vietnam.
That's
what
we
do
for
us,
it's
more
important
to
to
really
understand
the
founder.
We
we
take
a
ridiculous
amount
of
time
to
get
to
learn
the
founder
to
have
conversations,
take
them
out
the
office
I
want
to
see
how
you,
how
you
treat
the
staff
from
the
yard
for
dinner,
so
really
getting
an
understanding
of
of
the
entire
founder
of
psychology
as
much
as
we
can
it's
more
important
for
us
than
a
single
single
fund,
Award
Team.
It.
C
C
A
Now,
of
course,
as
always,
if
you
do
have
some
questions
make
sure
to
grab
them
after
the
fact
chase
them
upstairs.
Hunt
them
down.
Ask
your
questions
there.
So
we
have
a
fun
little
little
logistical
exercise
because
most
of
our
current
panelists
get
to
hand
their
mic
over
directly
to
the
next
panelists.
Since
a
couple
people
are
departing,
those
that
are
staying,
if
you
could
do
me,
the
favor
of
moving
in,
so
that
if
you
see
a
seat
next
to
you,
that
is
empty,
make
sure
you
fill
that
in.
A
Let's
make
sure
that
if
you
are
transitioning
between
the
two
floors
that
you
do
so
quietly
again,
keep
in
mind
we're
trying
to
run
this
with
the
efficiency
of
a
Swiss
Train
Station
I
want
to
keep
the
train
from
derailing
as
much
as
possible
to
that
group
that
is
sort
of
over
by
the
stairs
make
sure
that
you
transition
quietly
make
sure
you
don't
keep
any
of
these
speakers
that
needs
their
mic
put
on
from
receiving
their
microphone.
That
would
be
absolutely
key.
A
We
have
a
bit
of
congestion
between
the
two
floors,
but
nonetheless,
let's
take
a
look
at
what's
up
next,
so
I'm
pleased
to
welcome
the
director
of
the
Casper
Association
Ralph
Copley,
he
will
actually
be
moderating
a
large
chunk
of
what
is
coming
up
next.
He
has
been
with
the
Casper
Association.
Sorry.
A
A
Just
waiting
for
the
final
go
I
promise.
This
is
the
only
time
this
happens
is
the
only
time
we
have
two
panels
directly
after
each
other.
We
usually
have
a
lovely
buffer
from
a
keynote.
We
unfortunately
don't
have
that,
for
this
particular
slot
is
ready
and
waiting
in
the
wings
I
see
speaker
number
two
is
ready
to
go.
I
see.
A
A
All
right
so
those
gentlemen
that
already
have
their
microphones
on
I'm
happy
to
welcome
you
to
the
stage
again
this
particular
panel
on
how
institutional
players
can
get
exposure
to
web
3
and
taking
a
closer
look
at
tokenization
as
a
game.
Changer
is
moderated
by
Charles
kubli,
the
director
of
the
Casper
Association,
one
of
our
lovely
hosts.
For
this
week
he
has
joined
on
stage
by
ronit,
goes
a
head
of
banking,
fintech
and
digital
assets
at
City,
the
future
of
Finance
Think
Tank.
A
He
is
also
joined
by
James
glasscock,
head
of
ecosystem
at
Reserve
protocol,
as
well
as
Max
heinsley,
the
founder
and
CEO
of
21
Finance,
Jacob,
bosat
key
account
manager
at
metako
age
and
a
member
of
cmta
as
well
as
Marcus
mouth.
The
president
of
bridge
Tower,
Capital
Market,
just
got
his
final.
There
we
go
and
we're
waiting
on
one
last
microphone
we'll
make
sure
that
he
is
able
to
take
his
seat
should
be
another
20
30
seconds,
no
worries
Max.
A
J
Thank
you.
So
we
have
two
two
I
have
two
rules:
we
don't
talk
about
FTX,
it
was
just
talked
about.
First
of
all
and
second
of
all,
it's
not
really
what
we
want
to
talk
about,
and
second
we
don't
do
introductions.
You
can.
You
know,
look
at
all
these
people
on
LinkedIn,
so
we
go
right
into
it.
No
I
mean
they're
all
there,
so
we
go
right
into
it.
It's
very
exciting!
J
We're
talking
about
you,
know
the
future
of
capital
markets,
so
to
speak,
because
it
appears
that
tokenization
is
now
the
Panacea
for
all
the
problems
that
exist
in
finance
and
it.
It
appears
that
that
a
lot
of
people
have
woken
up
right,
I
mean
Larry
Fink,
just
it
just
issued
a
statement
that
he
wants
to
tokenize
shares
and
securities
and
bonds.
J
Other
people
have
said
so
large
institutional
players,
so
we'll
explore
what's
really
happening
with
the
people
that
actually
have
built
and
executed
some
of
this
future
already
today,
so
we're
heading
right
into
it
and
we
start
with
Jacob
who's
with
metako
and
metalke
is
a
member
of
the
CMT,
the
capital
markets,
technology
Association,
which
has
executed
a
lot
of
interesting
work.
So
maybe
your
hope
you
can
elaborate
on
that
and
you
know,
may
Talk
itself
episode
to
play
on
this
in
this
game.
K
Thank
you
Alpha
very
pleased
to
talk
about
cmta
initiative.
Maybe
first
of
all
we
live
here
in
a
in
a
world
that
is,
of
course,
we
all
know
it
highly
centralized.
You
know
for
trading
and
settlement
to
happen.
Today
we
need
a
central
Securities,
depository
Central,
counterparty
management.
We
need
t
plus
two
in
a
world
that
goes
fast
two
days
to
settle.
Any
party
that
has
been
participating
is
kind
of
a
long
time,
so
everyone
looking
for
a
more
efficient
way
to
do
things.
K
Then,
of
course,
recently
we've
seen
more
things
like
before
you
can
actually
trade
or
even
then
later
on,
settle
you
have
to
bring
all
your
assets
to
an
exchange,
including
the
Fiat
lag.
So
you
have
your
two
lakhs.
You
have
to
bring
your
assets
there
you
bring
your
fee
out
there.
Then
you
can
trade
and
ultimately
settle
so
in
this
group
of
the
capital
market
and
Technology
Association,
based
in
Geneva,
on
which
many
banks
and
exchanges
and
law
firms
and
fintechs,
such
as
medical,
are
participating
in
the
next
generation
of
financial
Market
technology.
K
We've
come
up
with
a
great
kind
of
POC
that
we
have
successfully
completed
only
back
in
December
of
2022
just
about
a
month
ago.
So
what
was
part
of
that
was
an
interesting
approach.
We
tried
to
combine
sort
of
some
parts
of
the
traditional
classic
world
and
combine
it
with
advantages
of
the
blockchains
at
blockchain
technology
in
terms
of
tokenization,
so
we
kind
of
had
a
three-step.
K
But
the
payment
token
is
not
actually
kind
of
representing
then,
in
the
end,
the
underlying
value
of
Fiat,
but
it's
rather
a
means
to
synchronize
the
settlement
between
the
parties.
Ultimately
to
this
orchestration
via
the
exchange.
The
settlement
happens
over
to
the
traditional
payment
Network
seek
of
the
issued
by
the
space
National
Bank,
which
is
used
kind
of
every
day,
with
all
between
all
the
banks
in
Switzerland,
and
they
would
then
kind
of
settle
this
Fiat
lag
not
centrally,
but
bilaterally,
one-to-one
with
the
two
involved
Banks.
K
So
we
found
a
way
to
have
kind
of
a
secure
way
of
do
delivery
versus
payment
with
tokens,
issuing
bonds,
issuing
kind
of
security
tokens,
but
then,
in
the
end,
find
a
way
to
settle
still
in
the
old
world
of
Fiat
in
Swiss
Francs.
You
know
something
that
everyone
can
already
handle
here,
at
least
in
this
Marketplace,
and
this
POC
is
now
the
foundation
for
next
steps.
So
we'll
go
ahead,
we'll
see
many
banks
want
to
do
security.
Tokenization!
K
No
wonder,
of
course
we
talked
about
this
in
the
panel
just
a
minute
ago
and
why
this
is
the
case,
but
I
think
it's
also
the
efficient
CBC
and
they
need
ecosystems
where
they
can
jump
on
a
standard.
You
know
standard
smart
contract,
standard
kind
of
infrastructure,
so
it's
not
something
magic.
Everyone
has
to
invent,
but
finally,
getting
there
and
and
have
a
standard
for
tokenization
will
be
a
great
Foundation
here
in
a
regulated
market.
Market
So,
based
on
this
POC,
we'll
see
a
lot
of
innovation.
On
top
coming.
K
There
will
be
all
kinds
of
things
we're
going
to
add
to
it
and
ultimately,
maybe
the
cbdc
will
be
live.
You
know
and
broadly
accepted,
then
you
can
introduce
it
and
until
that
day,
I
think
I
have
a
good
chance
of
bringing
that
to
a
live
stage
where
everyone
has
kind
of
a
trusted
infrastructure
that
again
doesn't
build
on
Central
trust,
but
still
kind
of
is
reliable
in
that
sense
that
we
most
needed
today
for
a
fine
tokenization
to
happen.
J
Thank
you
Jacob,
so
it's
very
exciting
work
that
happens
basically
on
the
regulatory
framework
which
is
in
place
in
Switzerland
for
a
while
and
Marx.
You
know
your
infrastructure
that
you've
built
and
the
people
that
you
work
with
currently
try
to
take
advantage
of
the
infrastructure
in
the
European
jurisdictional
environment,
and
it's
very
exciting
because
you
know
in
Switzerland,
we've
tokenized
shares
for
a
while.
You
know
now
we're
having
some
DBP.
You
know
pocs,
where
we
can
prove
in
productive
environment,
it's
happening.
J
L
And,
first
of
all,
thank
you
for
having
me
here
today
and
yeah.
So,
what's
really
exciting
is
what's
happening
on
on
an
EU
level
at
the
moment,
so
the
EU
actually
came
forward
mid
of
last
year
publishing
what
is
called
the
DLT
EU
dealt
pilot
regime
which,
at
least
to
our
knowledge,
is
the
most
Progressive
type
of
blockchain
Regulation
when
we
are
talking,
especially
in
the
field
of
enabling
trading
and
settlement
of
tokenized
financial
assets.
L
We
are
headquartered
in
bishtenstein
and
often
I
get
the
question.
Why
did
you
go
and
found
the
company
in
Liechtenstein
we've
been
around
for
quite
some
years,
I
mean
the
company
was
found
in
2017.
It
was
Liechtenstein
being
one
of
the
most
Progressive
countries
in
the
world
to
actually
move
forward
on
what
we
like
to
call
short,
the
yeah,
blockchain,
Act
and
then
Switzerland
and
other
countries
adopted
also
very
fast.
L
So,
having
said
that,
and
and
just
you
know
to
to
outline
also
to
the
audience
today,
they're
the
way
the
EU
is
going
about
doing
this-
is
it
actually
allows
for
legal
entities
that
already
are
today
regulated
financial
institutions,
obviously,
but
also
for
fintechs,
to
take
a
step
and
actually
enter
into
an
application
process,
which
is
then
conduct
through
the
national
regulator,
but
afterwards
the
regular
the
regulate?
The
regulatory
license
is
approved
by
asthma.
So
you
are
asthma,
supervised
and
I
just
want
to
also
for
the
sake
of
outlining
it.
J
So
now
we've
talked
a
little
bit
about
the
infrastructure.
What
is
happening,
the
jurisdictional
event
or
the
jurisdictional
setup
Marcus.
You
know
your
firm
is
targeting
institutional
investors
with
kind
of
like
in
a
regular.
You
know
properly
regulated
environment
and
you're
building
infrastructure.
However,
to
get
exposure
to
these
player
to
these
institutional
players
so
to
speak
to
this
new
web
3,
so
we're
moving
to
a
bit
more
exotic,
exciting
stuff,
but
also
in
tokenized
forms.
So
maybe
you
can
elaborate
audio
Pharmacy.
M
Well,
you
know,
I
think
what
you
just
said
it
you
know.
At
the
end,
the
US
market
is
a
huge
market
and
what
we
currently
see
the
topic-
tokenization
blockchain,
you
know
it's
a
it's
a
global
international
topic
right.
Everybody
is
currently
trying
to
establish
its
presence
in
the
in
the
in
a
particular
Market
and
tokenization
cannot
exist
without
the
complete
infrastructure.
So
you
need
blockchain,
you
need
the
payment
rails
right.
M
It's
not
just
the
smart
contracts
needed
in
combination
with
everything
and
at
the
end,
what
you
just
said:
it's
starting
at
the
low
level
infrastructure.
So
everything
we
are
doing
we're
running
an
integration
platform,
we're
partnering
with
multiple
custody
providers.
We
have
a
proof
of
reserve
and
a
wider
go
proof
of
Reserve
was
the
most
boring
topic
ever
and
now
it's
very
present-
and
we
started
that
a
year
ago
for
Securities
right
so
really
proving
on
chain.
Yes,
the
funds
are
existing
and
we
see
it
in
the
capital
markets.
M
We're
also
running
a
huge
staking
infrastructure,
in
particular
here
in
Switzerland,
so
we've
brought
about
8,
000
ethereum
validated
notes
at
the
moment,
which
is
a
lot,
and
this
is
helping
us
from
the
ground
up
really
from
the
foundation
building
the
layers
for
tokenization
on
top
of
our
securitization
and
what
we
also
currently
starting
as
a
as
a
reopening
of
a
division,
is
our
Capital
Market
services.
So
we
will
trying
to
be
horizontally
and
vertically
integrated
into
different
categories:
tokenization
securitization
ecosystem
Integrations,
so
being
multi-chain.
There
will
not
be
one
chain
dominating
the
whole
Space.
J
Exciting
so,
but
you
have
to
basically
build
your
own
pipeline
right,
whereas
these
other
gentlemen
they're
just
waiting
for
the
market
to
recognize
the
efficiencies,
and
you
know
and
trust
your
infrastructure.
You
actually
because
you're
wanting
to
give
investors
exposure
to
this
new
asset
class
in
a
regulated
framework,
but
also
tokenized.
You
have
to
build
your
own
supply
of
instruments
right.
M
There
correct
and
it's
just
a
nice
asset,
so
assets
products.
Yes,
you
know,
you
know,
I
think
the
crypto
space
was
lacking
a
bit.
Is
the
product
focus
at
the
end,
so
one
of
the
products
we
we
are
issuing
right
now
out
of
Singapore
is
a
State
security,
so
we're
taking
utility
tokens
we're
moving
them
under
custody.
M
We
are
ensuring
the
proof
of
reserve
and
then
we're
wrapping
it
with
our
partners
as
a
security
token,
as
a
bankable
security-
and
we
see
a
huge
demand
in
this
yield
bearing
bearing
tokens
at
the
moment-
and
there
is
still
huge
interest
getting
exposure
to
the
layer
ones
in
particular
and
having
these
regulated
products
is
just
a
game.
Changer
and
the
market
is
craving
for
it.
Great
exposure.
J
To
the
asset
class,
so
to
speak
with
the
new
world
forms
so
before
we
go
to
even
more
exciting,
you
know
constructed
products
by
by
James,
maybe
around
it.
In
the
preparation
of
the
panel,
you
told
me
a
reason
why
everybody
is
talking
about
tokenization
right.
You
mentioned
that
in
case
you
forget,
but
you
know
for
God,
but
I.
That's
what
I
retained
you
said.
There's
all
these!
What
did
I
say:
yeah,
that's
what
I
mean.
So
you
said:
there's
all
these
teams
at
these
Banks
now
that
can't
touch
our
bank.
J
Obviously,
no,
of
course
not
that
can't
touch
these
alternative
assets.
They
need
to
do
something
now
right
so
and
now
they're
tokenizing
Securities.
So
so
maybe
you
can
elaborate
a
little
bit
how
you
see
the
space?
You
know
you
thought
so
hard
about
DLT
and
and
published.
So
so
what?
What
do
traditional
players
in
the
c-suite
and
on
you
know
and
on
the
board
level,
really
think
about
this
new
infrastructure
and-
and
you
know,
are
they
do
they
feel
threatened.
N
N
I
see
three
drivers
of
tokenization
I
was
looking
at
the
title
of
your
panel
as
other
other
speakers
are
talking
how
institutional
players
can
get
exposed
to
web3
and
tokenization
of
the
game.
Changer
and
I
I
can
sort
of
see
three
drivers
of
that
in
terms
of
why
institutional
players
are
going
to
get
exposure.
So
one
is
this
industrial
logic.
A
lot
of
you
know.
Blockchain
technology
has
been
around
now
a
while
and
there's
a
maturity
of
understanding
inside
these
organizations.
It's
public
knowledge
I'm,
not
sharing
any
Trade
Secrets.
N
According
to
our
press
releases
working
in
this
space,
every
single
big
bank
has-
and
it's
probably,
if
you
add
up
all
of
the
different
people,
it's
probably
several
hundred
technologists
product
people
a
lot
of
risk
in
compliance
people
as
well.
So
several
hundred
in
all
big
Banks
and
the
reason
that
these
teams
and
these
teams
aren't
being
collapsed
to
zero.
This
is
not
feels
very
different
to
2018-2019
that
this
crypto
winter
is
okay.
There
is
a
bit
of
a
switch
to
tokenization
and
talking
about
tokenization
as
a
kind
of
safe
word.
N
It's
almost
like
this
cycle.
The
2023
version
of
Enterprise
blockchain,
it's
safe
to
say,
tokenization,
no
one's
going
to
get
too
scared.
But
beyond
that,
there's
a
steep
I.
Think
understanding
in
parts
of
these
organizations,
including
the
c-suite
that
certain
not
all
certain
parts
of
financial
services
can
be
done
faster,
better
quicker,
cheaper,
smarter,
using
types
of
blockchain
technology
and
that
I
don't
think
we
could
have
said
five
years
ago.
So
I
know
we
can't
talk
about
that
unmentionable.
N
You
know
incident
recently
and
that's
obviously
led
to
a
it
did
lead
to
a
freeze
and
it
will
have
a
freezing
effect
chilling
effect
this
year,
particularly
if
you
work
for
or
you're
involved
with
as
a
partner
to
Global
institutions,
either
American
based
or
institution
of
the
big
American
footprint.
We
can't
ignore.
That's
had
a
chilling
influence,
but
tokenization
there
are
lots
of
projects
on
so
where's
industrial
logic.
A
lot
of
big
Banks
see
in
illiquid
assets,
I'm,
not
telling
you
something
you
don't
know.
N
Dollar,
Sterling
or
something
you
know,
it's
a
super
liquid
Market
you'll
be
like
okay,
that's
kind
of
neat
and
cute,
but
we'll
be
much
more
interested.
If
you
came
and
said
hey,
how
about
you
know
corporate
bronze
or
we're?
Finally,
gonna
make
trade
finances
of
light
chain
Finance
work.
You
know
those
kind
of
things
where
it's
illiquid,
where
there's
obviously
opportunities
for
an
industrial
logic.
N
That's
where
the
interest
would
be
number
one
number
two
policy
makers,
ironically:
maybe
they
don't
intend
it
because
they're
pushing
something
else,
but
the
push
for
cbdc's
and
there
are
pros
and
cons
around
cbdc's
and
as
a
consumer
or
as
an
investor
I
see
more
cons
and
Pros.
But
if
I'm
a
policy
maker
I
totally
get
why
I
would
be
in
favor
of
cbdc's.
Obviously
RBI
in
India
are
the
latest
very
large
Central
Bank,
pushing
cbdc's.
N
So
if
you're,
a
global
financial
institution,
many
countries
in
your
footprint
now
we'd
have
to
think
about
when
there'll
be
a
digital
dollar,
if,
if
they'll
be
a
digital,
but
many
countries
with
your
footprint
already
have
a
tokenized
product
project
and
when
a
central
bank
does
it,
you
can't
say
as
a
bank.
Oh
that's
neat,
but
no
thank
you.
N
It's
like
you
have
to
be
part
of
it.
So
there'll
be
many
of
these
almost
sort
of
back
door
entries
tokenization
from
cbdc
the
third
driver.
So
when
it's
like
the
industrial
logic,
one
is
policymakers.
The
third
driver
is,
and
this
book
comes
from
our
corporate
clients.
We
did
a
lot
of
work,
so
this
is
a
bit
of
a
plug,
but
we
did
a
lot
of
research
on
the
metaverse
and
the
crossover,
the
metaverse
and
blockchain
technology
and
we've
had
a
huge
amount
of
interest
from
our
Opera
clients
from
corporate
treasurers,
saying
hey.
N
N
N
And
this
is
like
Mark,
Zuckerberg
and
satiradella
talking
about
it,
and
this
is
this-
is
like.
Oh,
my
God,
you
know
the
headset's
really
bad
and
I
can't
put
it
on
I'm
getting
dizzy
and
but
meanwhile
corporate
filings
in
SEC.
This
is
the
Us
corporate
filings,
mentioning
the
metaverse,
consistently
increase.
O
All
these
assets
be
tokenized
and
how
fast
will
they
come
on
chain?
If
anyone
was
here
kind
of
in
2018,
when
the
security
token
movement
started
to
gain
some
momentum,
you
know
we're
kind
of
hoping
for
it
back
then
it
didn't
really
happen
for
a
variety
of
reasons.
But
now,
as
Ralph
mentioned,
you
know,
you've
got
BlackRock
coming
out.
O
Vanak
DC
g,
a
number
of
folks
recognizing
what
a
substantial
opportunity
this
is,
and
the
reason
this
is
exciting
to
reserve
and
people
we
work
with
is
because
we
think
in
the
future
asset-backed
currencies
backed
by
a
diverse
basket.
You
know
a
portfolio,
it's
kind
of
a
classic,
don't
put
all
your
eggs
in
one
basket.
O
If
you
can
have
a
basket
of
assets,
10
or
20
or
100
assets,
diverse
inversely
correlated,
you
can
build
currencies
that
last
for
centuries,
not
just
years
or
decades
and
that's
very
exciting,
because
it
can
create
a
lot
of
liquidity
demand
for
each
of
these
projects.
Each
of
these
protocols
that
are
tokenizing
great.
J
K
Yes,
indeed,
I
think
the
three
banks
that
have
done
the
POC
should
be
widened
up,
so
there
should
be
a
kind
of
a
bunch
of
significant
Banks,
really
issuing
it
and
maybe
not
just
doing
a
POC
but
really
go
on
mainnet
and
actually
launch
the
product
here
for
a
first
case
here
to
to
actually
see
how
it's
running
live.
You
know,
and
this
will
increase
the
thrust.
I
believe
of
the
market
and
more
people
will
jump
on
it
and,
of
course
we
have
to
follow
with
all
the
trends
we
have
seen
here.
J
Right
all
right,
we're
gonna
run
out
of
time,
so
we
have
30
seconds.
So
in
one
word,
how
long
is
it
gonna
take
until
we
have
really
large
amount
of
credit
tokenized
on
a
secondary
Market?
You
have
months
and
years
you've
choose
of
how
many
three
three
to
five
two
at
scale.
Two
years,
two
bucks,
two
years,
seven,
seven
years
run
it
no
idea.
D
J
A
All
right
so
we're
going
to
keep
going
and
actually
I'm
going
to
bring
a
familiar
face
back
onto
the
stage,
because
Adolf
is
going
to
treat
us,
as
he
has
already
announced,
to
a
very
interesting
keynote,
specifically
taking
a
look
at
how
to
avoid
disaster
in
financial
asset
tokenization.
So,
let's
give
yet
another
warm
welcome
to
Ralph
Copley.
A
J
Maybe,
for
a
second
okay,
very
good,
so
lots
of
familiar
faces,
not
so
many,
so
I
will
take
you
briefly
through
why
I
believe
and
what
I
believe
is
is
happening
currently
and
what
the
real
problem
is
of
tokenization
and
why
all
the
infrastructure
that
is
currently
being
built
will
not
work,
and
then
afterwards,
we
really
dive
in
with
really
brummerts
in
a
fireside
chat.
How
we're
gonna
avoid
that
and
why
you
know
it
is
necessary
what
we're
doing
at
Casper
and
and
the
related
company
really
to
avoid
this.
J
So
we
believe,
as
we
said
before,
that
really
all
Financial
contracts
will
live
on
DLT
enabled
environments,
and
what
do
we
mean
by
a
financial
contract
could
be
a
bond
on
balance
sheet
items
like
bonds,
annuities
off
balance
sheets
as
swaps
cdos,
if
they
still
exist
and
also
collateral
will
live
on
chain.
Obviously,
some
of
the
collateral
is
easier.
All
those
is
not
so
easy
to
do,
but
we're
really
headed
for
disaster.
Why
are
we
headed
for
disaster?
J
We're
headed
for
disaster
because
the
state
of
tokenization
is
abysmal,
abysmal,
okay,
the
market
leader
in
Europe
is
taking
is
producing
a
token
when
they
tokenize
the
bond
they're
hashing
the
term
sheet
and
then
store
that
hash.
In
the
token
right,
that
is
no
innovation,
and
the
second
aspect
is
most
of
the
tokenization
platforms
today,
only
tokenize
the
asset
side.
Okay,
if
you
have
gone
to
some
Finance
Club
thanks
a
lot.
Okay,
I,
don't
see
the
time
excellent.
J
Q
Q
Q
You
tell
me
more
about
it.
So,
first
of
all
these
the
cash
flow
is
a
unit
of
account
account
unit
of
account,
so
a
cash
flow
can
be
represented
by
a
simple
number.
That's
the
first
thing.
So
it's
numbers.
Basically,
you
only
exchange
numbers
in
financial
contract
and
these
numbers
over
time.
They
are
linked
by
algorithms,
well-defined,
algorithms.
The
financial
contracts
are,
in
reality,
algorithms,
not
heaps
of
papers
so
so,
and
these
algorithms,
so
they
represent
patterns.
So
in
finance.
You
have
certain
patterns.
Q
How
you
deal
like
a
bond
has
a
typical
pattern:
I,
like
a
saving
account
as
a
typical
pattern.
Futures
have
a
typical
patterns,
so
so
they
follow
typical
patterns
and
most
astonishing,
the
number
of
patterns
which
you
find
in
finance
is
quite
Limited,
with
less
than
actually
a
half
a
dozen
most
banks
run
on
the
half
a
dozen
patterns,
very
simple,
even
even
the
more
sophisticated
guy,
very
simple.
But
if
you
go
to
the
extent
with
less
than
three
dozen
the
patents,
you
basically
manage
everything,
except
maybe
hyper
hyper
crazy.
Q
Is
because
the
the
essence
of
Finance
the
thing
which
we,
our
our
thing,
which
we
trade
or
which
we
manage
in
the
bank
is
algorithmic,
so
it
it's
algorithmic
from
beginning.
So
it's
the
thing
which
you
can
easily
run
in
a
financial
in
in
a
computer,
so
Finance
is,
in
my
opinion,
100
times
simpler
than
any
other
industry.
I
mean
compare
it
to
a
car
production
airplane
Etc.
The
finance
is
very.
J
Simple,
so
okay
I'm
confused
right,
because
what
you're
saying
is
in
the
financial
industry,
it's
really
easy,
then
you
know
to
represent
Financial
contracts
with
computers,
but
there's
a
huge
chaos
yeah
in
it
in
financial
industry.
They
can't
make
sense
they're
illiquid,
even
though
they
just
reported
three
months
ago
that
their
you
know
everything
is
fine.
Why
is
that
yeah.
Q
And
I
think
the
way
the
computer
entered.
The
financial
industry
was
the
worst
starting
point.
It
started
with
with
accounting,
and
that
was
the
easy
problem
to
solve
and
the
accounting
is
really
starting
at
the
wrong
end.
It's
actually
starting
at
the
end,
so
the
industry,
the
whole
industry,
is
like
upside
down.
You
know,
the
end
is
the
first
thing
and
you
stumble
back
to
the
origins.
J
Q
Yeah,
if
you,
what
is
a
balance
sheet,
a
balance
sheet
is
the
accumulation
of
value
grouped
like
you
have
a
balance
sheet
and
let's
say
you
have
a
position
Bonds
in
a
bank.
You
know
just
focus
on
that
one,
and
that
position
represents
the
sum
of
all
the
values
of
the
bonds
which
you
have
look
at
the
single
Bond.
What
is
a
single
Bond?
Q
You
bought
maybe
a
few
years
back,
a
certain
Paper
with
such
a
time
to
maturity
with
such
rate,
interest
payment
cycle
may
be
fixed,
maybe
variable,
maybe
a
company,
etc,
etc,
and
this
Bond
mixed
with
the
current
position
of
the
market.
That's
why
the
value
is
set
a
certain
value
and
what
you
find
in
the
balance
sheet
is
just
the
set
naked.
Nothing
else
that
the
rest
is
all
floating
around
in.
Q
J
Q
Problem
yeah
I
mean
one
is
the
the
high
chaos
which
you
have.
As
you
said
before,
we
should
not
talk
about
FDX,
but
one
of
the
things
they
had
not
given
a
real
balance
sheet
and
you
could
build
systems
when
you
create
the
contract,
the
balance
sheet.
Is
there
right
there
and
if
you
start
from
beginning
so.
Q
Q
Approach
yeah,
the
right
approach
would
be
to
start
with
the
thing
which
you
do,
the
thing
which
you
trade
and
we
said:
what
do
we
do
in
Banks
we
create,
maintain,
manage
and
trade
and
analyze
Financial
contracts,
so
the
whole
system
should
start
with
the
idea
of
the
financial
contract
and
from
the
financial
contact
you
can
derive.
Then,
at
the
end,
everything-
and
it's
not
only
you
might
say
it's
a
problem
of
the
accountant,
but
it's
not
really
a
problem
of
the
accountant.
Q
Only
it's
a
problem
of
the
whole
industry,
because
it's
built
that
way,
it's
even
a
problem
of
financial
science.
If
you
go
to
to
Finance
101.
The
first
thing
which
you
will
see
is
a
black
shows
formula,
so
it
starts
with
value
as
we
always.
We
are
obsessed
with
the
term
value.
Yes,
of
course,
at
the
end,
we
want
to
have
value.
But
if
you
build
systems
we
have
to
build
it
from
bottom
up.
So.
J
Q
So
actors
really
represents
those
patterns
which
we
said
so
we
exchange
cash
flows
following
certain
patterns
and,
as
I
said,
the
number
of
patterns
is,
is
not
very
small
but
not
huge.
So
it's
a
manageable
task.
It's
a
it's.
A
lot
of
work,
diligent
work
and
actors
represent
those
patterns
with
what
we
call
contract
types.
So
with
those
contract
types
you
can
create
basically
any
Financial
instrument
which
you
want
to
do
on
the
world
and
it
is
open
source
and
it's
published.
J
Q
Yeah,
first
of
all,
the
nucleus
We
join
proper
Finance,
this
proper
blockchain
thinking
so
to
build
the
optimal
blockchain.
You
have
to
know
how
the
financial
contracts
work.
For
example,
when
you
have
to
put
an
initial
State,
when
do
you
have
to
update
the
state
and
of
course
you
have
to
link
it
to
real
payments.
Things
like
that
and
that's
what
we
are
doing
in
in
in
nuclear
Finance.
J
J
Q
There
are
many
now
if
you
run
a
system
on
on
this
actus
concept.
At
any
point
in
time
you
have
the
balance
sheet,
so
each
contract
is
represented.
Algorithmically
and
value
is
another
algorithm
how
you
derive
from
the
future.
Cash
flow,
the
current
state
of
the
thing,
and
so
so
that
is
one.
So
you
have
constant
auditability
I
think
that's
the
holy
grail
for
every
CFO
for
that
every
Treasurer,
the
risk
manager
and
accountant
yeah.
So
so
you
have
that
instantly
real
time.
Q
That's
one,
of
course,
I
I
believe
it
will
reduce
cost
drastically
in
the
long
run.
You
will
also
see
in
near
future-
maybe
not
that
near,
but
surely
in
the
in
the
seeable
future.
That
regulation
will
follow
more
and
more.
The
active
standard
actually
ISO
wants
to
is
in
the
place
of
making
it
an
official
standard
for
the
representation
of
Defense.
So
we
have
a
strong
cost
reduction
over
time.
I
think
it
will
reduce
the
regulatory
burden
and
increase
the
insight
for
The
Regulators.
At
the
same
time,.
Q
It's
not
no
one
doing
it.
I
could
actually,
quite
in
our
case,
a
few
are
coming
now.
Regulators
are
also
very
much
intrigued
by
it,
so
they
are
coming.
But
the
main
reason
is
probably
you
know.
We
said
the
current
architecture
is.
It
starts
with
the
end
point
and
we
struggle
back
to
the
to
the
reality,
and
we
do
that
in
a
horrible
poetic
wave,
it's
very
expensive.
Now
you
could
say
the
world
defines
standing
of
it
on
its
head
and
we
say
simply
please
stand
on
your
legs
and
it's
not
that
easy.
Q
J
Who
see
it
right
so
and
maybe
in
conclusion,
so
obviously
the
thesis
of
nuclear
finances
that
if
you
do
not
build
on
an
algorithmic
standard
in
a
computer-based,
truly
computer-based
environment
where
their
you
know,
machines
need
to
do
reconciliation?
You
cannot.
You
cannot
execute
on
this
vision
of
tokenized
Financial
assets.
Q
Yeah
I
might
say
it's,
maybe
maybe
just
if
I
want
to
add.
You
know
what
Ralph
said
before.
Why
is
the
current
tokenization
so
useless?
The
token
itself
defines
ownership
who
owns
the
bond
and
how
much
of
that
Bond
the
bond
itself
is
normally
in
today's
paper,
like
a
PDF
of
a
heap
of
paper,
and
then
you
see
the
bonds,
you
know
and
and
you
go
to
Excel
and
you
try
to
figure
out
the
cash
flow
and
you
try
to
value
now.
A
Thank
you
all
right.
Thank
you.
Willie,
thank
you,
Ralph,
and
with
that
we
are
heading
into
our
final
panel
of
this
particular
block
of
programming.
We're
sticking
with
the
tokenization
topics,
taking
a
look
at
tokenize
it.
How
blockchain
increases
transparency
and
Trust
for
hard
assets
for
love,
we're
joined
by
the
lovely
Anu
bardwaj,
as
the
co-founder
and
CTO
of
she
economy.
She'll
be
moderating.
A
D
R
It's
just
us:
no,
it's
just
us
yeah,
okay,
great
so
hi.
Everyone
welcome
to
tokenize
it
I'm
I'm,
Anu,
Bard
watch
founder
and
CTO
of
shikonomy.
We
are
the
world's
first
and
only
female-led
podcast
listening
app
web3,
based
where
it's
listen,
learn
and
earn,
and
we're
in
195
countries
now
and
we're
on
ten
dollar
mobile
phones
so
happy
to
share
that.
T
Sure
we're
a
boutique,
Investment,
Management,
Company,
New,
York
and
London,
and
a
little
bit
of
Bermuda
still
but
tokenization
to
me
has
always
been
around
liquidity.
Coming
from
the
capital
markets,
we
really
needed
to
understand
how
to
look
at
different
asset
classes
and
form
the
right
structures
and
I
think
you
know
what
got
me
into
this
thing
about
10
plus
years
ago
was
from
blockchain
okay.
T
It
gave
me
an
opportunity
to
really
rethink
current
NASA
classes
and
kind
of
restructure
them,
at
least
in
a
mental
model,
and
then
over
time
start
to
think
about
how
do
we
go
from
the
blockchain
infrastructure
to
create
real
opportunities
for
Commerce
and
other
trading
related
activities
and
I
always
looked
at
real
estate
as
the
asset
that
really
needed
to
be
recontextualized?
So
yeah
we're
going
to
talk
about
that
today.
U
Yeah,
my
name
is
Sanjeev
birari
I'm,
one
of
the
founder
and
chief
business
officer
of
Silicon
Valley
based
company,
where
we
actually
tokenized
the
real
world
assets
by
using
blockchain
and
we've
been
in
this
space.
Since
2016.,
we
put
in
almost
just
around
six
years
of
our
time
to
build
this
whole
platform,
and
we
are
the
leading
you
know:
atas
providers,
which
is
asset
tokenization
as
a
solution
provider
in
the
US
we've
done
almost
just
around
six
billion
dollars
of
assets,
tokenized
and
those
are
all
come.
U
These
are
mixed
of
mixed
assets.
What
Adam
was
talking
about
the
commercial
real
estate
assets?
We
have
done
now
almost
close
to
around
seven
or
eight
different
use
cases
where
one
of
the
use
cases
actually
invoice
factoring.
We
are
actually
putting
invoice
factoring
on
a
chain
for
and
doing
and
using
DLT
to.
Actually,
you
know
tokenize
those
that
particular
use
case.
So
yeah
I
mean
it's
it's
happy
to
be
here
and
you
know.
Thank
you.
So
much
for
such
a
wonderful
opportunity
to
you
know
talk
to
all
of
the
panelists.
S
My
background
is
I,
worked
on
Wall
Street
and
then
decided
to
work
in
the
crypto
space
after
that,
I
help
a
lot
on
the
legal
side
for
both
the
security
tokenization
for
things
that
are
like
funds
as
well
as,
if
you
want
to
tokenize
just
an
individual
asset
like
a
home
or
you
know
a
car
anything
like
that.
So
I
help
people
navigate
that
space,
fantastic.
R
S
U
Yeah
I
would
like
to
rephrase
the
question
a
little
bit
in
a
way
where,
when
we
started
in
2016,
we
we
were
actually
dealing
with
Securities
the
regulation
in
terms
of
acceptance
level
of
their
knowledge
in
terms
of
what
the
Securities
are
in
terms
of
tokenization
is
concerned,
so
right
fast
forward,
2016
to
2023
the
level
of
adoption
of
these
you
know
from
regulatory
perspective
even
from
the
institution
is
extremely
high.
I
mean
now
we
when
we
talk
about
tokenization
when
we
actually
go
with
these
real
use.
U
Cases
which
we
have
already
proved
we've
already
proved
almost
close
to.
You
know
six
use
cases
106
listings.
There
are
one
of
the
listings
of
actually
you
know
the
world's
first
commercial
real
estate
tokenization
in
a
Marketplace.
They
they
almost
have
seven
billion
dollars
of
assets
on
platform,
they've
tokenized,
five
billion
dollars.
Without
with
our
you
know,
Tech
now,
I
see
this.
The
adoptions
level
have
increased,
but
the
when
we
talk
about
tokenization,
we
talk
about
liquidity
and
that's
exactly
what
we've
been
doing
trying
to
do
it.
U
What
we
believe
is
that,
unless
we
don't
get
the
primary
more
primary
issuance
issued
from
the
security
tokens
perspective,
we
won't
be
able
to
generate
the
liquidity
and
the
secondary
exchange
yeah,
and
that's
exactly
one
of
the
reasons
that
we
are
trying
to
get
more.
You
know
primary
issuance
issued
from
most
of
these
different
asset
classes,
so
that
we
can,
we
have
more
tokens
would
be
listed
on
the
secondary
exchange
to
get
that
liquidity,
and
that's
that's
how
we
see
that
it's
still
a
little
bit
of
a
barrier.
T
Yeah
I
I
think
in
addition
to
your
point,
I
think
it
also
liquidity
means
a
lot
of
different
things
to
different
parts
of
the
world
and
how
it's
securitized.
And
so,
when
we
look
at
the
global
footprint
of
our
business,
you
know
how
we
deal
with
liquidity
in
India
versus
out
in
the
U.S
or
even
in
London
is
very
different.
T
So
you
know
we
took
an
approach
about
I,
think
it
was
2018
I
was
there
talking
about
blockchain,
and
you
know:
I
I
realized
very
quickly
that
you
know
the
best
way
to
really
think
about
liquidity
was
to
go
work
with
people
who
understand
that
okay
and
I
had
spent
20
plus
years
in
the
capital
markets
to
understand
how
to
do
securitization
and
so
forth,
yeah.
So,
with
with
that,
we
wanted
to
go,
and
you
know
create
a
set
of
structures
that
would
allow
people
to
onboard
an
offboard
different
assets.
D
T
T
T
I
mean
look,
Singapore
gets
a
lot
of
play.
Okay
around
you
know.
As
far
as
tokenization
you
have
the
BCD
the
paper
that
came
out.
You
know
I
I,
think
when
you
look
underneath
it
the
kind
of
dollars
we
were
talking
about
and
the
kind
of
assets
that
are
at
play.
You
know
I
I,
think
it's
going
to
take
them
a
little
bit
longer
for
them
to
get
acceptance,
but
it's
good
I
mean
it's.
T
This
is
all
new
world
here,
okay
and
I-
keep
saying
this,
but
every
another
year
goes
by,
but
I
think
this
is
the
year
where
we're
going
to
see
tokenization,
okay
in
a
purest
form
that
we
can
actually
look
at
this
stuff.
We
can
see
the
party
and
the
counterparty
have
shared
risk.
Okay
and
shared
reward.
U
Of
course,
no
I
think
I
totally
agree
with
you
and,
in
fact
that
one
of
the
reason
where
we
see
the
level
of
adoption
from
the
institutions
is
is
gone
up
because
of
you
know
there
are
a
lot
of
use.
Cases
have
already
been
there
on
the
ground,
I
mean
we've
done
six
use
cases,
but
we've
done
almost
now
billions
of
dollars
of
assets
on
chain
and
those
chains
are
already
those
assets
are
already
trading
on
the
secondary
exchange
as
well.
U
T
T
Looking
at
my
own
asset
class
within
my
current,
you
know
balance
sheet
right
and,
let's
start
playing
with
that
on
the
inside
before
we
try
to
get
it
out
to
the
outside
world
right
and
that's
where
I
think
there's
going
to
be
significant
amount
of
play
this
year,
okay,
you're
going
to
see
a
lot
of
large
real
estate
players
who
are
considering
tokenization,
securization
and
distribution.
The
key
issue
here
is
distribution.
T
U
That
I
mean
our
aim
is
to
a
person
who
is
sitting
in
Dubai
could
probably
should
buy
a
you
know:
a
thousand
dollar
in
a
retail
outlet
in
a
Sean's
Lisa
or
probably
you
know,
somebody
who's
sitting
in
the
Palm
Jumeirah
should
actually
buy
something
in
you
know
different
parts
of
the
world
right,
so
this
secret
should
be
tradable,
interoperable
and
on
Exchange
people
should
actually
buy
those.
That's
one
of
the
reasons
that
we've
been
putting
a
lot
of
efforts
to
you
know,
educate
this
whole
industry.
R
Well,
on
that
note,
we
have
four
minutes
mindful
of
time.
Please
do
share
some
updates
on
your
end,
if
you
have
any
like
any
announcements
that
you'd
like
to
make
or
share
like
as
we
all
develop
this
industry
and
go
forward
and
create
new
things.
This
is
this
is
like
the
greatest
Community
to
be
creating
with
all
of
you
in
here.
So
why
don't
you
guys
jump
in
here
all.
S
S
D
U
Mean
there
are
private
Capital
markets,
the
people
who
have
been
spending
like
damn
right,
like
20
20
years
in
this
space,
when
we
talk
about
it,
they
say:
hey
I
mean
I
can
do
this
tokenized
as
well.
How
do
we
do
it
now?
Let's
start
thinking
about
how
do
we
structure
this?
The
same
thing
happened
with
the
person
with
whom
I've
been
dealing
with.
It's
got
20
years
of
experience
in
you
know,
invoice
factoring
and
I
told
them.
U
You
know,
tokenization
would
probably
work
in
invoice
factoring
and
now
we're
talking
about
billions
of
you
know
dollars
to
put
in
an
invoice
factoring
to
do
a
tokenization,
so
I
mean
we
don't
have
any
announcements
to
make,
but
we
are
doing
some
phenomenally
great
stuff,
actually
I
mean
incredibly
great
stuff.
Actually
so
yeah
good.
T
You
don't
have
to
announce
anything,
so
we've
just
done
a
joint
venture
with
two
of
our
kiosks,
that's
one!
It's
called
Davos
Holdings
actually
had
nothing
to
do
with
dava's
hair,
but
it
was
a
company.
We
started
about
20
plus
years
ago
as
a
partner
of
ours,
and
what
we've
done
there
is
that
we've
taken
the
tokenization
engine
with
another
company
called
cosilians
out
of
London,
okay,
that
can
actually
tokenize
in
a
secured
manner.
T
It's
epsilia
compliant
and
we
can
very
quickly
go
from
tokenizing
that
asset
to
get
into
distribution
to
our
other
Holdings
through
our
exchanges
and
stuff.
So
for
us
it.
You
know,
even
though
we're
looking
at
commercial
real
estate
in
at
large
pools,
so
imagine
going
into
a
black
rock
or
somebody
like
that:
okay,
we're
a
large
asset
manager
and
just
saying
we'll,
take
the
whole
portfolio
over
which
is
in
the
billions
of
dollars.
T
Now,
if
you
can
do
that,
you
can
do
plump
just
any
other
asset
class
okay,
so
we
kind
of
picked
the
tough
ones
first,
just
to
get
through
all
the
rough
rides.
Okay
and
it
takes
us
a
little
bit
longer
and
once
you
get
there,
it's
a
lot
shorter,
okay
and
you
just
expand
and
grow.
So
that's
our
announcement.
If.
U
S
Okay,
yeah
well,
one
thing
we're
always
looking
for
is
people
that
are
looking
to.
You
know
explore
the
space
that
have
real
assets
that
they
want
to
tokenize.
So
please
come
talk
to
us.
If,
if
you
want
to
do
that
and
also
if
you
are
a
blockchain
provider,
you
know
we've
built
out
on
several
great
chains,
but
we
want
to
make
this
on
as
many
chains
as
possible.
So
you
know
if
in
either
of
those
cases,
we'd
love
to
love,
to
talk
with
you.
U
So
real
chain
agnostic
platform,
so
we
work
with
the
layer,
1's
layer
tools,
but-
and
we
are
talking
to
Casper,
so
you
know
definitely
there
are.
There
are
a
lot
of
things
which
we
can.
Actually
you
know
kind
of
explore
and
work
together
with
Casper
labs
and
I
really
appreciate.
You
know
the
whole
thing.
What
you
have
put
this
together
is
extremely
good.
Thank
you.
So
much
for
the
team
out
there.
You
know-
and
you
know,
Cliff
doing
a
phenomenal
great
job,
so
yeah.
D
T
R
A
All
right,
let's
give
a
very
warm
thank
you
to
our
very
last
panel
of
this
block,
as
they
make
their
way
back
over
I'm
happy
to
dismiss
you
for
the
next
30
minutes,
so
we'll
be
kicking
things
off
with
block
two
at
3
30
this
afternoon,
so
you
have
30
minutes
to
go
upstairs.
Network
grab
a
drink,
enjoy
yourself
and
make
sure
to
head
back
downstairs
to
check
out
the
state
of
web
3
infrastructure.
Thank
you
so
much
to
those
of
you
here.
Thanks
to
those
online
we'll
see
you
in
30
minutes.
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
All
right,
thanks
to
everyone
that
took
the
time
to
join
us
today
for
the
second
block
of
our
very
first
full
day
of
programming,
we're
heading
into
a
block
dedicated
to
the
state
of
web
3
infrastructure
and
kicking
us
off
I
get
to
invite
Michael,
stoiv,
co-founder
and
CTO
of
make
onto
the
stage
to
give
us
some
insights
on
Casper
wallet,
so
he's
giving
us
a
keynote
on
one
giant
leap:
an
introduction
to
Casper
wallet.
Let's
give
a
very
warm
welcome
to
Michael,
okay.
V
Thank
you
and
thank
you
very
much
for
that
very
kind,
introduction,
Tracy
and
thank
you,
CV
labs
and
Casper
labs
for
inviting
me
to
speak
here
today,
so
before
co-founding
make
and
also
co-founding
Casper
Labs
I've
actually
been
involved
in
the
adoption
cycles
of
new
technologies.
For
my
entire
career,
starting
in
the
mid
90s
I've
been
involved
in
the
adoption
of
first
mobile
games
and
apps
e-commerce,
social
games
and
now
blockchain
and
there's
been
one
thing.
That's
been
consistent
and
consistently
through.
V
So
the
first
prerequisite
in
my
experience
really
is
the
availability
of
intuitive
intuitive
user
experience.
So
for
those
of
you
are
old
enough
to
remember,
remember
back
in
2006
the
year
before
the
iPhone
came
out,
the
number
one
smartphone
operating
system
was
this
thing
called
Symbian
OS
it
commanded
close
to
50
of
the
smartphone
market
share
globally.
The
only
problem
was
the
global
market
for
smartphones
was
about
150
million
users
worldwide
right,
that's
depending
on
which
estimates
you
believe
more
or
less
the
size
of
the
blockchain
user
base.
V
Today
it
then
comes
along
iPhone,
and
shortly
after
that,
Android
and
all
of
a
sudden,
smartphone
usage
takes
off
it
skyrockets
and
the
question
is:
why
wasn't
simbian
able
to
do
that
in
the
12
years
of
its
existence?
Prior
to
that
2006?
It
has
a
lot
to
do
with
user
experience.
It
was
just
really
really
hard
to
use
that
darn
thing
next
up
is
a
repeat
engagement.
So
for
me,
that's
another
prerequisites.
V
Finally,
technologies
that
provide
a
captive
and
integrated
ecosystem
are
primed
for
Mass
adoption,
so
web
2
companies
like
Google
and
Amazon
and
apple
they've
perfected
the
strategy
and
as
end
users,
all
of
us.
We
know
how
convenient
it
is
to
really
sort
of
seamlessly
interact
with
and
navigate
across
their
ecosystems.
V
So
the
real
question
is:
why
hasn't
this
really
happened
in
blockchain,
yet
I
think
we
can
all
agree
as
an
industry.
We
have
not
reached
our
Mass
adoption
moment
yet
and
why
is
it
that
no
blockchain
project
has
really
to
date
met
one
two
or
even
three
of
these
prerequisites,
and
when
will
that
happen,
so
I
believe
that
Casper
actually
is
primed
to
kick
off
a
true
adoption
cycle
and
what
makes
help
Casper
will
meet
all
these
three
prerequisites.
V
V
It's
intuitive
ux
not
only
enable
sort
of
a
best-in-class
block,
Explorer
experience,
but
also
provides
access
to
Advanced
functionality
such
as
transfer
staking
and
soon
things
like
Integrations
with
crypto
tax
software,
multi-signature
transactions
and
other
things
is
the
front
door
to
the
Casper
ecosystem.
Casper
live
is
a
gateway
to
other
dapps
on
the
blockchain,
then,
a
few
months
ago
we
launched
Casper
Studio
a
web
experience
where
anybody
can
effortlessly
mint
their
nfts.
V
It
quickly
became
the
number
one
or
one
of
the
top
Taps
on
the
network
in
the
next
few
months,
and
we
have
a
little
video
with
this.
In
the
next
few
months,
we
will
launch
Casper
markets
a
best-in-class
nft
Marketplace
not
only
for
digital
art
and
collector
Collectibles,
but
also
for
physical
goods
and
intellectual
property.
Many
of
the
projects
that
were
announced
here
of
the
last
couple
days,
while
Casper
Market,
will
also
be
a
great
this
destination
to
discover
and
trade
NFD
assets.
V
V
Now
the
official
subject
of
this
keynote
is
the
new
Casper
wallet
which
will
soon
replace
the
Casper
signer
Casper
wallet
features
an
entirely
new
UI
and
a
user
experience.
That's
really
optimized
for
ease
of
use
and
the
safe
self-custody
of
users
tokens
as
a
browser
extension.
It
is
the
first
wallet
to
be
available
not
just
for
chromium-based
browsers,
but
all
desktop
browser
platforms,
including
Firefox
and
webkit
browsers
later
this
year.
It
will
also
be
available
for
mobile
devices,
providing
a
seamless
and
secure
experience
for
Casper
users,
no
matter
where
they
are.
V
V
User
experience
also
extends
to
developer
experience.
Blockchains
are
notoriously
difficult
to
develop
for
dealing
with
setting
up
notes
with
things
like
Global
States
block
time
and
other
unfamiliar
Concepts
presents
a
huge
roadblock
for
adoption,
while
Casper
is
way
more
developer
friendly
than
most
other
blockchains.
We
take
it
a
step
further
with
Casper
clouds.
It's
a
middleware
platform
that
provides
developers
with
a
standard
rest
API
with
which
they
can
not
only
perform
all
interactions
with
the
Casper
blockchain,
but
also
access,
indexed,
enriched
summarized
and
aggregated
data,
making
it
extremely
easy
to
build
powerful
blockchain
applications.
V
V
If
you
have
ever
used
Casper
life
and
you're
familiar
with
this,
this
login
screen,
where
you
can
connect
with
all
the
supported
wallets
as
a
user.
If
you
subsequently
visit
another
app,
typically
you're
being
asked
to
connect
again,
it
may
be
with
a
different
wallet
because
they
don't
support
the
same
ones
and
it's
a
very
friction.
Full
Experience,
going
from
that
to
DAP
across
the
ecosystem,
with
cash
per
click.
V
Once
you
sign
in
on
one
app
you're,
essentially
connected
to
Old
apps
as
the
U.S
airline
commercial
goes,
you
are
now
free
to
move
about
the
country
for
developers.
We
will
soon
release
this
as
an
SDK
which
will
allow
them
to
quickly
and
easily
integrate
with
all
supported,
wallets
in
the
Casper
ecosystem.
Using
a
single
SDK,
it
will
continuously
add
support
for
more
wallets.
V
Finally,
ux
also
applies
to
how
we
identify
ourselves
on
the
blockchain
I.
Think
we
all
agree,
32
character,
hexadecimal
strings
are
not
the
most
user-friendly
experience.
We
are
soon
launching
Casper
name,
it's
a
Casper
name
service,
surprise
that
will
allow
users
and
companies
to
identify
themselves
with
human
readable
names
in
the
Cs
in
the
dot
csbr
domain.
V
V
V
V
You
need
users,
you
may
actually
acquire
those
users
through
the
discovery
mechanisms
provided
by
Casper
life,
the
front
door
to
the
Casper
ecosystem.
That
user
may
then
seamlessly
connect
to
your
game
using
cast
per
click
in
the
game
rather
than
being
known
by
random
hash.
They
are
known
by
their
gamer
attack
powered
by
Casper
name,
and
they
may
earn
mint
And
Trades
game
assets,
virtual
assets
from
the
game
and
Casper
markets.
A
However,
it's
raised
some
very
serious
questions
and
some
very
important
questions
for
this
industry
and
one
of
the
things
is:
how
do
we
Safeguard
digital
assets,
and
that
is
exactly
what
we're
going
to
explore
in
the
upcoming
panel.
So
join
me
in
welcoming
our
moderator,
Anta
Maria
malte
she's,
the
co-director
of
the
Swiss
fintech
Innovations.
She
is
joined
on
stage.
A
Please
take
your
seat,
she's
joined
on
stage
by
Dr,
dick
clay,
he's
the
CEO
of
Bitcoin,
Swiss,
Dr
Martin,
he's
book,
the
head
of
research
at
uphold,
Philip,
Negley,
co-founder
and
CEO
of
Gen
2
and,
of
course,
welcoming
back
to
the
stage
Michael
stoyle,
co-founder
and
CTO
of
make
Andhra
I
leave
you
with
these
gentlemen.
Thank.
W
D
W
I'm
surrounded
by
leaders
in
the
industry,
I'm
very
excited
to
lead
this
panel
on
safeguarding
digital
assets,
one
of
the
hottest
topics
in
financial
services,
especially
after
such
a
tough
year,
2022
yeah,
but
first
things.
First,
let's
let
me
introduce
shortly
this
gentleman.
So
I'll
start
with
you
Dirk
Dr,
adek
Clay.
He
is
the
CEO
of
Bitcoin
Swiss.
X
X
You
know
my
experience
is
one
year
old,
so
I
joined
Bitcoin
Swiss
a
year
ago
and
I
will
say
from
tradify
and
I
will
say
you
learn
your
ropes
in
a
bear
Market.
So
this
was
a
a
tough
year,
but
my
experience
has
clearly
exponentially
grown
during
this
time,
so
very
excited
to
be
here.
We're
celebrating
our
10th
years
of
anniversary,
we've
been
through
various
up
and
down
Market
cycles
and
we're
a
Survivor
and
the
assets
of
our
clients
are
safe
with
us.
W
Y
Apple
is
a
digital
asset
platform,
you
can
trade
metals
and
foreign
exchange
and
we're
not
in
exchange
just
to
make
that
clear.
So
we
are
connected
to
32
venues,
centralized
exchanges
and
D5
venues
and
I
think
we're
the
only
financial
institution
in
the
world
except
central
banks
that
have
their
assets
and
liabilities
in
real
time
on
the
website.
Y
So
in
in
my
world
you
are
a
toddler
you're
one
years
old
in
blockchain,
I
got
into
decentralized,
Computing
and
blocked
in
the
1990s,
I,
wrote
and
I
think
they
use
the
word
seminal
article
in
2010,
how
blockchain
will
change
the
world
and
that
blockchain
was
one
of
industrial
blockchain
and,
most
importantly,
product
tracing
and
food
tracing.
At
that
time,
I
was
working
for
the
European
Union
in
Asia,
promoting
European
technology,
and
the
big
issue
was
trade.
Y
Blockchain
has
nothing
to
do
with
finance
and
unfortunately,
we
then
went
on
with
we
blamed
Fabian
focusdale
for
inventing
the
erc20
script,
which
then
led
to
the
Ico
boom,
and
this
crypto
casino
that
we
have
now
and
I.
Believe
crypto
is
not
a
thing.
Web
3
is
a
gobbledygook
marketing,
speak
and
nfts
in
their
current
form.
We
are
Dead
on
Arrival,
they
won't
go
anywhere.
Z
I
think
about
Gen
2
I
mean
we
truly
expand
the
investment
universe
together
with
our
clients
and
partners.
Some
are
here.
We
built
bridges
into
all
asset
classes,
including
digital
and
also
into
nfts,
and
everything
that
there
is
from
alternative,
Investments
public
investments
into
the
digital
market,
and
we
usually
serve
in
our
platform.
Financial
intermediaries
that
want
to
build
Bridges
to
the
bankable
world
and
make
basically
every
asset
bankable,
and
so
it's
very
easy
for
everybody,
and
even
institutionals,
of
course,
to
get
into
this
groundbreaking
and
new
Innovative
products.
V
I'll
I'll
keep
it
short,
since
you
just
heard
from
me
so
I've,
been
in
in
technology
across
various
Industries,
for
a
good
25
to
30
years,
been
involved
on
sort
of
the
sidelines
of
blockchain,
since
about
2012
and
sort
of
both
feet
in
I
would
say,
2017-ish
and
and
co-founder
and
CTO
of
make,
as
well
as
one
of
the
co-founders
of
Casper
Labs
back
in
2018
and
at
make.
We
do
a
number
of
things
specific
to
blockchain.
W
Great,
thank
you.
Well.
Why
is
this
topic
so
so
interesting?
I
think
that
digital
assets
and
safeguarding
digital
assets
really
comes
together
at
intersection
between
Finance,
between
crypto
and
between
cyber
security.
So
we
are
really
here
on
this
hot
spot
of
all
these
three
important
topics,
and
if
we,
if
we
think
about
what
happened
last
year
in
the
past
two
to
three
years,
I
think
we
really
saw
a
big
adoption
when
it
comes
to
digital
assets.
We
we,
of
course
we
saw
some
mismanagement.
W
If
we
think
about
the
ethics
collapse,
some
some
Siege
phrases
were
mismanaged
there
and
the
customers
were
were
totally
ignored.
We
all
heard
about
customer
first,
but
what
SPF
they
did
was
really
mismanagement,
bad
practice
and
then
last
but
not
least,
we
we
see
that
an
increased
competition
in
this
digital
asset
platform
space
exists
right.
We
see
more
and
more
platforms
that
emerge
so
I
think
there
are
a
lot
of
things
that
we
should
discuss
about
today.
So
let's
kick
it
off
with
some
questions.
W
V
V
I'm
sure
those
of
you
who've
been
here
for
a
lot
much
longer
time,
remember:
Mount,
gox
and
everything
associated
with
that.
So
from
that
perspective
it
wasn't
as
much
of
a
shocker
as
as
it
perhaps
was
made
out
to
be
next
after
those
two
sort
of
reactions,
I
think
there
were
conversations
had
with
with
partners
and
employees
and
and
friends
who
are
new
to
crypto
and
on
like
well.
What
is
this?
Is
this
a?
V
Is
this
a
symptom
of
crypto,
or
is
it
something
else
that
turns
out
that
this
is
just
plain
old
frauds
and
and
what
does
it
mean
for
the
industry?
So
I
think
obviously
there's
a
lot
of
things
that
we
can
learn
from
it,
but
this
this
story
is
clearly
fraught
that
can
happen
in
in
it
was
not
really
a
crypto
story
is
I.
Think
what
I'm
trying
to
say,
yeah.
Z
I
would
also
join
in
here.
I
mean
it's
in
all.
Industries
things
happen.
This
happen
unfortunate
things
happens
also
to
to
Great,
bigger
companies
or
more
popular
companies.
I
guess
it's
just
a
true
sign
that
in
such
a
case,
diversification
counts,
and
you
should
always
be
aware
that
there
is
maybe
not
only
one
solution
for
what
you're
aiming
to
do
and
yeah.
X
X
You
know
we
have
our
risk
buckets.
We
do
principal
trading,
so
we
Shield
our
clients
from
losing
money
on
exchanges.
You
know
losing
money
on
exchanges
in
Evergreen
right
and
we
have
always
recommended
our
clients
not
to
keep
assets
on
exchanges,
which
is
why
we
take
over
the
risk
for
them
right.
So
our
clients
haven't
lost
anything.
We
risk
manage
the
situation
and
then
you
know
it's
also
a
question
of
custody
right.
So
you
know.
X
Z
Y
Y
V
This
year
will
be
even
better,
so
it's
funny
so
obviously
we'll
talk
about
self-custody
and
a
lot
of
us
do
self-custody
and
it's
obviously
an
ideal
for
our
industry.
Not
your
keys,
not
your
money,
but
there's
a
lot
of
issues
with
it
still
right
like
if
you
look
at
sort
of
the
history
of
crypto
I,
believe
more
more
cryptocurrency
has
been
lost
to
loss
of
keys,
then
to
frauds
or
exchanges
going
down
yeah.
V
Y
Y
V
Y
W
AA
AB
X
Us
about
absolutely
this
deep
in
the
Swiss
mountains,
viral
of
secrets
with
people's
right.
So
so
we
we
have
the
whole
James
Bond
solution,
actually
really
right.
Everything
you
see
in
the
movies.
It's
you
know
techniques!
No,
but
but
you
know
to
your
point:
we
have
well,
you
know
we
have
wealthy
clients,
we
have
institutions,
we
have
foundations,
we
were
instrumental
in
the
ethereum
icos
a
lot
of
things,
so
you
have
professionals
who
do
some
self-custody,
but
most
of
them.
X
They
trust
us
with
their
keys
right
and
yes,
we
keep
them
exactly
segregated
from
our
company's
assets
right
and
we
can
show
that
and
it's
you
know
safely
stored
in
their
multi.
Can
multiple
mechanism
to
provide
security,
but
it?
But
it's
really
what
happens
with
FTX
is
really
Breaking.
All
the
principles
of
money,
management,
yeah.
U
V
So
you
have
a
great
solution
and
it
works
for
exactly
those
parties
that
you
describe
you're
not
going
to
onboard
8
billion
people
on
the
planet
right.
So
there
has
to
be
a
solution
that
we
as
an
industry,
put
forward
that
allows
entire
continents
to
to
still
come
onto
blockchain
and
do
that
in
a
way.
V
Y
Is
also
a
legal
Dimension
to
this
most
people
get
wrong.
Is
that
your
keys
are
not
ownership,
they're
possession
right,
there's
a
difference
between
ownership
and
possession
in
the
law,
whereas
a
kyc,
the
fully
authorized
account
is
something
you
own,
whereas
Keys
is
just
you
possess
them
right
in
legal
terms,
and
that
distinction
is
important
in
the
future.
What
FTX
has
created
is
a
wrong
dichotomy
between
exchange
versus
D5
Defy
is
not
the
opposite
of
centralized
exchange.
There
are
too
many.
Y
Z
Sure
I
mean.
Finally,
as
you
see,
we
have
a
user-driven
market
that
actually
emerged
for
for
in
this
example,
and
often
doomed,
but
it
needs
the
professional
parties
to
keep
it
alive
and
to
also
set
standards
in
that
and
with
that
I'm
sure
we're
going
to
touch
upon
it.
It
will
also
lead
a
bit
into
regulation
and
into
the
combination
of
of
these
elements,
and
they
they
they
serve
trusts.
They
are
there
for
a
reason.
They
were
not
in
invented
by
an
older
generation.
Z
Z
Well,
mainly
through,
of
course,
let's
say
summarize,
the
elements
we
help
many
professional
parties
like
Bitcoin,
Swiss
or
others
in
the
in
the
sphere.
Actually,
over
200
parties
we
help
to
to
form
investment
products
and
with
that
also
the
management
of
these
Investments
professional
management
of
these
Investments
for
all
sorts
of
assets
and
also
safe
keeping
of
their
keys
with
that
at
the
right
custodians
with
the
partner
of
their
choice
and
oftentimes.
Z
It
falls
also
into
diversification
because
they
don't
use
usually
use
that
only
with
one
party,
but
maybe
they
they
break
that
up
and
and
control
that
a
bit
better.
So
in
the
FTX
scenario,
yes,
there
were
some
parties
that
of
course
lost
assets
with
that,
because
they
trusted
them
wrongly
trusted
them,
but
many
of
the
clients
also
had
the
safekeeping
keeping
at
a
different
exchange
or
in
other
formats
which
helped.
You
know.
W
Y
I
think
the
the
reason
why
I
mentioned
web
3
being
the
nonsensical
marketing
term
that,
unfortunately,
Will
Survive,
this
is
not
about
the
next
installment
of
web
of
the
internet
or
the
world
web.
This
is
Ultimate
about
identity
and
privacy,
and
we
have
at
this
point
no
working
identity
solution
anywhere.
They
all
have
major
flaws
and
in
privacy
it's
even
worse.
We
have
the
understanding
that
the
blockchain
is
completely
transparent,
but
who
really
needs
transparency?
Y
If
you
look
at
a
private
company
like
Apple,
they
don't
want
their
Trade
Secrets
Exposed
on
a
public
blockchain.
Whatever
is
on
the
blockchain
can
be
seen
now,
then
we
came
up
with
CK
snacks,
for
example.
Ck
snack
is
a
technology
that
basically
makes
the
transaction
between
me,
the
user
and
the
blockchain
private,
but
there
are
no
secrets
on
the
blockchain,
so
it's
useless.
If
I
want
to
do
anything
that
I
don't
want
anybody
to
know
right.
So
it's
it's
there's
a
British
game
called
carrot
in
a
box.
Y
Right
if
I
hand
you
a
box,
you
don't
know.
What's
in
it,
that's
the
point
of
blockchain.
We
need
to
have
a
technology
that
allows
the
blockchain
itself
to
keep
a
secret
until
we
have
that
nfts
are
useless
and
web
3
is
not
going
to
go
anywhere
because
you
will
have,
as
you
very
happy
that
you
said
that
in
your
introduction
we
have
the
enormous
problem
of
cyber
security.
Y
There
were
how
many
billions
stolen
last
year
from
accounts,
because
most
blockchain
companies
even
have
no
clue
about
cyber
security.
I
mean
FTX,
didn't
have
a
single
cyber
security
officer,
but
it
may
shock
you
to
know
that
many
of
the
blockchains
out
there
don't
have
any
awareness
of
cyber
security,
and
this
is
why
in
D5
we
will
keep
getting
hacked
and
hacked
and
hacked
again,
because
the
hackers
are
always
one
step
ahead,
I'm,
sorry
to
say,
but
hackers
are
amazing
right.
That's.
D
X
Then
you
know
just
to
add
on
that
I
think
2022
was
the
year
when
those
weaknesses
got
super
exposed,
but
the
build
up
actually
happened
in
20
and
21
right.
So
in
hindsight,
I
think
actually
22
was
was
a
terrible
year
for
customers
terrible
year
for
the
industry,
but
was
a
very
important
year.
2021,
you
know
all
those
players
who
came
out
of
nowhere
took
over
the
world
didn't
have
build
proper
infrastructure,
didn't
have
build
up
cyber
security
walls
right
and
sort
of
got
exposed
and
I.
X
Think
that's
the
learning
right
and
you
know
in
these
times
I'm
always
saying
to
Mighty
right,
keep
the
heads
down
keep
fixing
you
know,
keep
keep
on
looking
on
cyber
attacks,
and
that
includes
simple
things
like
DDOS,
but
all
this
stuff
that
you
know
in
the
threat
fire
industry
is
well
well.
You
know
we're
used
to
and
and
and
make
sure
the
thing
is
proper
and
sound
right.
So
this
is
not
the
time
for
hype
and
you
know
mood,
shot,
talk
and
all
that
stuff
right.
X
V
Y
V
Y
Y
You
mean
the
The
Regulators,
what
they
do
with
us.
Well,
The
Regulators
are
finally
catching
up
by
when
I
started
before
I
joined
up
or
I
was
a
consultant
I
got
into
this
Consulting
business
by
request
of
a
central
bank
and
I
ended
up
talking
to
the
regulators
and
at
one
point,
for
example,
the
European
Central
Bank.
There
was
nobody
who
knew
anything
anything
at
all
about
blockchain
trying
to
write
the
regulations.
This
has
changed
enormously.
Y
If
you
now
go
to
The
Regulators
in
Washington
in
in
this
case,
actually
more
Frankfurt
than
anywhere
else
that
they
have
enormous
knowledge.
There
are
people
like
Philip
santner,
that
they're
really
really
good
Minds
at
work
for,
and
the
bankers.
The
Regulators
have
realized
that
this
is
not
a
crypto
craze.
This
is
a
technological
sea
change
that
they
need
to
get
on
top
of
it.
It's
not
about
avoiding
crypto,
defrauding
customers.
It's
about
accepting
that
the
technology
is
here
to
stay
and
how
do
we
regulate
it?
Y
Y
Y
Y
Z
That's
in
distribution
of
financial
products
already
already
the
case.
There
are
warning
labels,
there
are
different
regulations
and
who
reads
the
fine
print
exactly,
but
maybe
there.
There
is
also
time
for
a
classification
of
these
investor
types
for
their
own
protection
and
and
also
for
the
build
up
of
this
market
and
for
for
for
the
greater
future.
There.
X
Z
Y
There
are
privacy
technologies
that
are
in
their
absolute
infancy
that
will
come
to
fruition
in
the
next
few
years,
and
once
we
have
proper
identity
and
proper
privacy,
then
we
can
move
on
to
actually
owning
an
nft
as
opposed
to
possessing
it,
and
then
we
can
move
on
to
having
control
over
something
in
a
D5.
World
D5,
as
we
have
as
as
it
is
now,
is
as
Ralph
Copley.
Rightfully
it's
nothing
more
than
overcollator
as
lending
there's
doesn't
work
the
way
as
advertised
right.
Y
That
I
think
we're
very
close
to
a
Band-Aid,
because
we
are
stuck
in
this
ethereum
world
where,
where
you
got
layer,
ones
and
layer,
twos
and
and
a
majority
of
people,
think
blockchain
is
ethereum
right.
It's
that
fallacy
is
just
in
Academia
nobody's
talking
about.
Blockchain
I
mean
we
call
this
classical
blockchain.
You
move
on
to
to
the
director
cyclic
volcanical
graphs
and
the
proof
of
of
observable
reputation,
for
example,
which
is
far
better
than
any
other
proof
that
we
have.
Y
But
these
things
are
now
stuck
in
Academia
and
in
some
startup
projects,
and
unfortunately,
this
space
is
moving
so
fast
that
I
have
no
idea
what
the
final
solution
to
this
problem
will
be.
I,
don't
think
we
have
to
wait
long
I
think
Regulators
will
be
moving
much
quicker
than
we.
We
anticipate
I
think
that
the
whole
securitization
and
tokenization
will
happen
much
earlier
than
anybody
expects,
because
we
now
have
a
a
reinforcing,
Trend.
Y
More
and
more
people
are
getting
into
this
space
that
when
they
realize
this
is
a
technology
I
can
build
on
everybody
I
know
comes
from
tread
from
traditional
finance.
My
own
head
of
sales
comes
from
Bank
of
the
Deutsche
Bank,
a
Bank
of
America.
They
leave
their
jobs
because
they're
dissatisfied
and
they
move
into
the
exciting
world
of
crypto.
So
I
think
there
is
so
much
impetus
now
in
this
space
that
I
don't
think
we
have
to
wait
long.
Y
V
D
V
First
of
all,
I
think
it's
very
hard
to
predict
timelines
in
this
industry.
I
think
drawing
parallels
to
what
we've
seen
in
AI
recently,
where
everybody
thought
this
is
like
10
years
out
and
all
of
a
sudden.
It's
here
and
I
also
agree
with
Martin.
That,
like
this,
is
about
the
iterative
Improvement
right.
There
are
Band-Aids
that
you
apply
until
you
get
there
and
specifically
with
self-custody
I
think
there
are
ways
that
we
can
improve
the
experience
from
a
from
a
safety
perspective.
V
For
example,
Casper
has
a
a
sort
of
a
delegated
key
functionality
where
you
can
have
social
key
recovery.
So
while
you
may
not
want
to
put
your
trust
in
a
central
Authority
or
maybe
the
bank,
but
you
will
trust
your
wife
and
your
friends
and
your
neighbor
to
maybe
help
you
recover
your
key,
should
you
lose
it
right?
Because
one
of
the
big
complaints
is
what's
bitcoin's
phone
number?
Who
do
I
call
when
I
lose
my
passwords?
X
AC
X
Y
W
W
W
Okay,
I,
like
this
so
I,
think
it's
great
that
we
are
finishing
in
a
very
positive
tone.
Tracy
already
made
me
a
a
sign
that
we
need
to
finish
here
off.
I
think
we
we
all
agree.
We
have
a
lot
to
do
a
lot
to
recoup
this
year.
So
let's
keep
our
heads
down
and
continue
building
and
putting
a
very
important
eye
on
cyber
security
to
protect
our
customers,
our
Solutions,
our
institutional
clients,
so
cheers.
Thank
you.
Everyone.
A
A
If
you
are
standing
in
front
of
these
stairs,
please
do
make
sure
to
clear
that
area.
Perfect
all
right,
so
we're
heading
on
into
our
keynote
again
introducing
burrito
a
mobile
wallet
for
the
next
decade.
Let's
give
a
very
warm
welcome
to
Max
Shin
CEO
of
burrito
wallet
max
if
you
slowly
want
to
make
your
way
onto
this
stage,
go
ahead.
Thank
you.
AC
AC
AC
AC
So
we
have
very
naughty
brother
country
in
our
North
North
Korea.
Probably
they
are
so
jealousy
of
our
famous,
so
they
probably
developed
the
nuclear
weapon
to
be
like
a
k.
Nuclear.
This
is
actually
joke.
You
can
laugh.
I
did
the
same
thing
yesterday,
vandover
left
so
in
crypto.
This
number
is
quite
surprising,
because
this
is
how
much
the
coins
price
goes
up
the
day
when
they
get
listed
in
Korean
exchange.
AC
AC
Thank
you,
but
Korea
is
a
strange
among
the
large
developed
countries.
Korea
probably
is
only
one
country
who,
where
the
domestic
search
engine
has
more
market
share
than
Google,
there
are
bigger
e-commerce
than
Amazon
in
Korea.
So
when
Koreans
use
Amazon,
it's
only
Black
Friday,
but
the
products
we
buy
from
Amazon
is
actually
the
Korean
television
like
LG
or
Samsung,
and
if
you
want
to
talk
to
a
Korean,
the
the
most
popular
chatting
app
is
Kakao,
not
widget,
WhatsApp
or
Telegram.
AC
AC
Binance
covers
many
different
countries,
but
orbit
only
for
Koreans,
and
there
is
no
margin
or
leveraged
trading
in
Korea,
so
the
actual
trading
number
is
quite
large
right.
So
it
tells
you
that
how
Market
is
so
dense
and
the
liquids
are
so
concentrated
in
small
peninsula,
so
everybody
wants
to
get
in
the
market
in
Korea,
but
the
problem
recently
the
listing
is
very
difficult
because
of
the
market
is
highly
regulated
by
government,
so
people
want
to
get
accessed
by
decentralized
exchange
or
Define.
AC
AC
And
Korea
is
the
first
country
where
the
government
regulates
not
only
the
central
large
exchange
but
also
self-custody
wallet.
The
regulation
means
here
you
need
to
register
your
mobile
Roulette
in
order
to
withdraw
your
cryptocurrency
out
of
centralized
exchange.
So
we
are
fully
integrated
with
Korean
exchange
business.
AC
AC
AC
So
someone
like
us,
someone
expert.
What
did
what
we
do
is
we
just
checked
the
first
few
digits
one
last
characters
to
confirm
whether
it's
correct
address,
so
the
scammers
knows
exactly
what
we
are
doing
so
the
fake
address
exactly
look
same
or
except
some
more
piece
of
character
in
The
Middle,
so
they
create
a
dummy
transaction
to
your
address,
so
they
expect
you
to
unconsciously
copy
and
paste
from
the
fake
address
for
your
transaction.
AC
AC
AC
So
when
we
met
earlier
when
I
spin
off
this
Venture
from
bism,
we
are
actually
talking
to
Tara,
Solana
and
actually
F
text.
They
want
us
to
the
issue
token
to
to
get
list
in
their
exchange,
so
I
kind
of
avoid
all
those
the
mind.
All
those
you
know
digesters
so
I'm
happy
to
have
a
partnership
with
Casper.
So
we
are
planning
to
have
a
big
event
in
Korea
this
year
to
have
a
hackathon
together.
So
I'm
happy
to
invite
you
if
you
guys
are
interested
in
so
this
is
it.
AC
A
AE
Hi
everyone-
this
is
David
arakamya,
he's
a
Ukrainian
politician
and
he's
having
that
bad
feeling
you
get
when
you
just
publicly
realized.
You
lost
the
public
private
key
to
your
crypto
wallet
that
has
millions
in
it,
not
a
good
feeling,
but
self-custody
is
about
more
than
just
keeping
track
of
your
private
Keys.
It's
about
trust,
I'm,
Lisa,
loud
I'm,
the
CEO
of
fluidify
and
co-founder,
and
we
build
defy
tools
for
institutions.
AE
AE
In,
in
contrast,
if
we
have
a
lot
of
trust,
we
could
accomplish
amazing
things
together
the
collaboration
we
could
do
just
it's
mind-blowing
to
think
of
what
we
could
do
if
we
trusted
each
other
and
work
together
on
things
think
about
what
you
could
accomplish.
If
you
trusted
all
the
people
around
you,
so
trust
actually
plays
this
part
between
the
familiar
the
new
and
the
familiar
we
used
to
have
a
model
of
local
Trust.
AE
When
our
networks
were
small,
we
trusted
all
the
people
around
us.
We
knew
all
the
people
around
us
and
they
knew
each
other,
so
our
trust
was
based
on
relationships
between
them.
If
we
did
something
to
betray
our
trust
with
one
person,
everyone
else
knew
about
it.
So
we
didn't
do
that,
but
as
our
networks
got
bigger
that
no
longer
worked
anymore,
so
we
came
up
with
institutional
trust.
Institutional
trust
is
where
big
companies
came
in
Anonymous
companies
and
took
the
place
of
our
trusted.
Network
now,
there's
been
so
many
violations.
AE
AE
So
that's
not
actually
defy
try
to
explain
that
in
press
interview
after
press
interview
like
FTX
is
not
D5,
but
anyway
we
have
come
to
see
that
corruption
is
just
the
way
things
are
done
in
big
business
and
we've
stopped
trusting
institutions
instead
we're
starting
to
see
something
new
come
up
with
the
sharing
economy
with
blockchain
and
now
with
decentralized
Finance.
We
see
something
called
distributed.
Trust
distributed,
trust
is
is
well,
it's
part
of
D5.
Defy
is
a
big
part
of
it,
but
soon
D5
is
coming.
AE
It's
not
just
going
to
be
called
D5,
it's
going
to
be
called
Phi
because
it
will
be
what
we
do
and,
along
with
that,
we'll
have
Smart
contracts
that
are
involved
in
our
interactions
with
each
other,
our
agreements
with
each
other.
Along
with
that,
there
will
also
be
an
authentic
digital
identity
that
records
everything
that
we
do
forever.
We
can't
erase
it
if
that's
not
scary,
I.
D
AE
AE
I
was
catching
up
with
my
friend
the
other
day
and
she's
in
California,
and
it
was
just
you
know.
The
usual
girl
talk.
How
are
the
kids
how's
your
job
and
have
you
saved
your
seed
phrase
for
your
for
your
wallet
for
your
crypto
wallet?
You
know
that's
what
you
talk
about
with
your
friends
too
I'm
sure.
AE
So
she
said.
Oh
yeah,
don't
worry.
It's
covered
I've
made
so
many
copies
of
my
seed
phrase.
I'm,
never
gonna
lose
it.
Oh.
So
my
friend
is
terrified
that
she's
going.
She
doesn't
have
a
safe
structure
to
keep
track
of
her
her
private
keys.
So
instead
she's
going
the
opposite
direction.
She
doesn't
want
to
be
like
that
guy.
AE
In
the
first
slide,
who
lost
his
crypto
wallet,
she
wants
to
be
she's,
maybe
going
a
little
too
far
the
other
direction,
but
we've
we've
all
come
to
become
a
little
bit
dependent
on
banks,
because
they're
supposed
to
take
care
of
her
money
and
everything
around
it.
But
we
know
Banks,
don't
actually
take
care
of
our
money,
they
take
our
money
and
they
do
stuff
with
it
and
make
more
money
and
they
keep
it,
but
they
don't
take
care
of
our
money.
AE
So
that's
Banks,
they've
trained
us
to
let
someone
else
manage
our
money
and
not
to
worry
our
heads
about
it,
but
in
D5
we
become
empowered.
We
now
have
the
power
to
make
the
decisions
and
to
reap
the
rewards
of
our
decisions
and
take
the
responsibility
for
them.
So
how
is
defy
different
from
Trad
five?
It's
not
really
intra
in
traditional
Finance.
It's
all
about
creating
distributes
about
creating
structures
for
trust.
It's
all
about
trust.
AE
AE
A
Thank
you
so
much
Lisa
feel
free
to
go
ahead
and
take
a
seat
as
the
others
join
you
on
stage,
as
she
mentioned.
Indeed,
the
next
panel
takes
a
closer
look
at
how
reports
of
defy's
demise
are
in
fact
greatly
exaggerated,
because
D5
2.0
is
coming
we're
joined
on
stage
by
our
moderator,
Gareth
jenkinson
he's
the
senior
reporter
at
coint
Telegraph,
along
with
him
I
get
to
Welcome
to
the
stage
Patrick
Horseman.
Managing
partner
of
coral
Capital
Lisa
loud,
of
course,
is
still
behind
me.
A
AF
Thank
you
very
much
everyone
very
good
afternoon
to
you.
It's
fantastic
to
be
a
blockchain
hub
here
in
DeVos
my
name
is
Gareth
jenkinson
I'm,
a
journalist
and
broadcaster
I've
been
working
for
coin
Telegraph
since
2017,
so
I've
seen
some
highs
and
lows
in
the
cryptocurrency
space
I'm
sure
all
of
you
guys
have
experienced
the
same
over
the
last
few
years.
We
are
here
to
talk
about
decentralized,
Finance.
Obviously,
it's
become
hot
talking
points
over
the
last
couple
of
years.
In
the
cryptocurrency
space,
it's
evolved
very
quickly.
AF
It's
been
influenced
by
a
very
tough
2022,
which
saw
the
collapse
of
Terra
Luna
and
they'd
had
some
Rumblings
through
the
market,
and
it
really
does
speak
to
the
topic
of
the
panel,
which
is,
of
course
D5
2.0,
and
whether
or
not
decentralized
Finance
has
seen
its
demise.
So
before
we
do
that.
I'm
gonna
actually
give
everyone
a
quick
opportunity
to
introduce
themselves
and
chat
a
little
bit
about
what
you
do
and
how
you're
involved
in
the
defy
space
Patrick
consult.
I
With
you
thank
you,
Patrick
Horseman,
managing
partner
of
coral
Capital,
we're
100
million,
defy
the
liquid
hedge
fund,
based
in
Puerto
Rico
of
eight
people.
We
also
run
a
small
Venture
fund
investing
early
stage
in
the
space,
and
my
background.
I've
been
in
hedge
funds
and
private
equity
for
25
years,
got
into
crypto
in
2017.
AG
Okay,
so
Patrick
Martin
I'm,
a
general
partner
at
Alpha,
Sigma,
Capital
and
also
I
run
my
own
family
office
I've
been
investing
in
blockchain
crypto
since
2016
and
I
I
love
the
space.
So
one
Alpha
Sigma
is
one
of
my
portfolio
funds
and
they're
the
best
performing
funds,
so
I
basically
decided
to
to
join
them
and
help
them
scale.
Investment
thesis
is
yeah.
We
like
D5,
we
like
blockchain,
you
know,
business
models
are
important,
I
think
so.
AF
AG
AF
AE
And
Lisa
loud
and
I
come
from
a
big
Tech
background,
apple
and
PayPal.
A
couple
years
ago,
with
my
co-founder,
we
founded
fluidify
we're
building
tools
to
bring
institutions
into
the
D5
space,
so
risk
metrics,
predictive
volume,
bringing
everything
audits,
tax,
reporting,
we're
making
defy
as
compliant
as
possible,
leading
that
wave
of
compliance.
That's
coming.
AH
AF
Here,
fantastic
I
just
want
a
quick
show
of
hands
who
here
has
had
a
little
dip
in
the
D5
markets,
tried
things
like
uni,
swap,
okay,
only
a
couple
of
hands
in
there.
Okay,
there
we
go.
Thank
you
for
your
honesty,
so
I
I
think
everyone
knows
what
D5
is.
What
I'd
like
to
know
from
from
our
panelists
is
what
has
really
driven
D5
over
the
last
two
years
and
what
really
brought
it
to
a
mainstream
in
crypto
in
particular,
and
I'll
open
it
up
to
anyone
to
to
take
it
first.
I
I
We've
seen
a
massive
kind
of
decline
in
removal
of
stable
coins
from
the
market,
sometimes
in
the
last
couple
months,
up
to
500
million
a
day,
so
I
think
it's
really
a
liquidity
driven
situation
that
we're
currently
in
both
broadly
and
crypto
and
in
D5,
and
to
make
D5
function
we'll
need
to
see
liquidity
come
back.
I
just
took
a
quick
look
at
defy
llama
we're
down
to
45
billion
in
total
value
locked.
We
were
at
175
billion
nine
months
ago,
so
I
think
that's
really
a
big
part
of
the
story.
How.
AF
AE
So
Defy
is
a
big
term
right
and
we
have.
We
have
stable
coins.
You
mentioned
Patrick,
you
mentioned
stable
coins
and
that
plays
into
staking
platforms
like
Ave
and
and
well
Celsius.
It
was
Celsius
and
what's
what's
changed
now
is
the
liquidity
pools
are
becoming
more
useful,
they're,
more
predictable,
most
of
the
use
cases
in
the
past
two
years
have
just
been
Financial.
They've,
been
speculation
essentially
and
that's
what's
I
think
that's.
What's
Driven
crypto
over
the
last
five
years,
I
think
we
need
to
move
towards
more
utilitarian
usage.
AE
AE
AF
AH
Do
agree
with
Lisa
utilities,
which
is
quite
important.
I
have
a
bit
of
a
cautionary
tale,
so
we
started
as
a
very
maximalist
defy
shop.
We
wanted
nothing
to
do
with
centralization
and
my
CTO
Greg
Barnes
and
myself
written
hundreds
of
pages,
some
of
them
immortalized
Forever
at
white
paper,
some
of
them
burned
in
the
fire.
Thank
god,
and
we
were
simply
not
satisfied
with
the
level
of
protection
it
affords
to
the
to
the
clients.
AH
So
the
one
thing
the
thing
is
important
for
D5
is
have
Clarity
of
purpose.
D5
is
a
very
powerful
thing
how
we
apply.
It
is
very
important
in
some
instances
such
as
perhaps
trading
centralized
systems
are
superior
unless
we
know
exactly
why
we
need
to
defies
it
to
avoid
the
state.
Is
it
to
maintain
our
anonymity?
AH
So
continuing
my
story,
we
went
into
the
hybrid
world
we
brought
a
bit
of
centralization
in
and
then,
of
course,
we
had
to
be
trusted
and
we
didn't
like
that
at
all.
We're
very
frustrated
didn't
know
where
to
go.
There
went
directly
to
the
centralized
change
and
then
realize
the
only
solution
to
our
troubles
is
blockchain
and
the
way
that
played
out-
and
in
fact,
I
see
that
this
is
this
might
be.
The
future
of
D5
is
adoption
of
traditional
Finance
of
things
such
as
consensus
to
make
it
provably
better.
AH
What
I
mean
by
that
is,
you
can
comply
with
SEC
and
it
could
be
malicious
compliance
to
the
letter.
Yet
there's
a
lot
of
things
will
be
still
open.
You
can
commit
to
do
better,
but
then
somebody
has
to
take
your
word
for
it.
Yet
if
you
bring
external
validators,
they
can
check
you
and
they
can
provide
a
compartmentalized
compliance.
If
you
will
crowdsource
compliance
that
somebody
like
SEC
can
actually
digest,
because
it
can
make
a
fool,
is
really
off
and
there's
a
centralized
Affair
and
there's
an
informational,
only
sort
of
this
crowdsource
D5.
AF
There
I
think,
just
in
the
context
of
of
with
and
listening
to
Anthony
scaramucci
last
night
I
had
an
opportunity
to
chat
to
him
after
his
keynote
here,
and
he
spoke
a
bit
about
their
investment
philosophy
and
their
exposure
just
to
bitcoin,
ethereum
and
and
his
General
portfolio
and
Patrick
and
Patrick.
You
guys
are
investing
in
defy.
AF
AG
Think
crypto
in
in
general
is
it's
part
of
our
investment
thesis.
So
but
it's
it's
not
the
the
purpose
of
this
having
a
token,
but
you
need
to
have
a
utility
of
the
token
it
needs
to
have
a
reason
to
be.
It
needs
to
have
a
business
model
underlying
and
D5
is
really
a
well,
as
we
say,
decentralized
Finance,
as
opposed
to
centralized
Finance,
where
we
trust
an
intermediary
in
D5.
We
trust
a
smart
contract,
I
think
in
the
past.
AG
What
happened
is
that
everybody
could
say:
okay,
I'm,
a
D5
protocol
I'm
having
a
smart
contract,
just
just
use
it
and
see
what
happens,
but
they
are
still
quite
centralized
because
they
control
the
smart
contract.
So
you
can
trust
the
smart
contract.
Maybe
you
can
audit
it
if
you
have
technical
ability,
but
I
think
that
we
need
a
lot
more
third-party
audits
for
you.
AG
Basically,
if
you're,
if
you
say
your
D5
protocol,
there
should
be
third-party
Auditors
to
basically
say
the
smart
contract
does
what
it
does
and
then
we
need
more
decentralization
over
time
where
you
actually
the
founders,
don't
control
the
protocol
and
they
can't
just
turn
off
the
the
smart
contract,
because
investing
in
D5
is
I
I.E,
buying
the
buying
shares
and
company
buying
the
token
or
the
protocol
token
or
deploying
assets
on
the
protocols
and
if
I
can't.
If
I
can't
rely
on
protocol,
then
I'm
not
going
to
be
confident
to
put
assets
there.
AG
So
decentralizing,
it
more
I,
think
is
kind
of
where
we
need
to
go.
But
we
like
to
invest
along
the
stack
and
I
think
it
needs
to
be
also
broken
down
into
more
pieces.
So
we
need
to
kind
of
have
like
the
idea
of
having
Primitives
Financial
Primitives
that
then
other
people
can
put
together.
So
we
basically
ordered
the
the
basic
building
blocks
and
then
and
then
other
people
can
build
on
top
of
that
and
can
build
new
things
can
bring
it
into
into
Virtual
Worlds
into
the
metaverse
into
other
things.
AE
Just
want
to
interject
before
Patrick
answers,
because
you
brought
up
a
great
point
about
the
the
token
security
and
the
audits.
Most
people
don't
have
access
to
those
audits,
because
they're
done
by
the
project
and
yesterday
on
the
stage
I
announced
that
we
have
just
built
automated
audits
on
all
of
the
smart
contracts
that
are
in
defy.
So
our
users
can
actually
get
a
full
audit
on
any.
D
AE
I
I
would
actually
Echo
the
point
on
audits.
We've
got
four
members
of
our
team
that
are
developers
and
before
investing
on
any
platform,
we
go
in
and
actually
look
at
the
code
and
do
an
internal
audit
ourselves.
Coming
from
the
traditional
hedge
fund,
space
and
kind
of
traditional
hedge
fund
risk
management.
We
took
a
slightly
different
approach.
Most
crypto
hedge
funds
are
pretty
long.
I
Biased
own
tokens
hope
that
you're
in
a
bull
market
you
make
money,
there's
been
some
defy
indexes
of
kind
of
the
major
projects
and
those
are
performed
abominably
like
down
90
percent,
so
holding
a
basket
of
large
cap.
D5
tokens
was
not
a
good
strategy
and
was
not
our
strategy.
We
really
approached
it
more
from
being
Market
neutral,
being
delta
neutral,
trying
to
kind
of
make
money
on
the
inefficiency
of
the
space.
The
volatility
of
the
space
and
D5
was
really
the
first
time
you
could
do
that
like
prior
to
D5.
I
I
They
liquidated
people,
we
as
lenders
did
not
experience
losses
and
it's
it's
still
very
early.
Like
I
said,
liquidity
is
a
big
issue
at
the
moment,
but
we're
excited
about
the
space.
There's
some
really
interesting
projects
still
being
built
kind
of
at
the
bottom
of
the
market
here
and
I.
Think
usage
and
Adoption
of
the
actual
underlying
purpose
of
the
protocol
is
going
to
be
really
important
going
forward.
It's
not
just
going
to
be:
let's
go
farm,
this
token
and
dump
it
on
the
market.
Just.
AF
I
AG
AG
You
don't
even
need
to
tokenize
them.
You
just
need
to
put
them
up
as
collateral,
and
then
you
know
the
liquidity
is
a
little
bit
less
certain.
But
you
know
the
D5
is
is
is,
is
is
a
way
to
do
it
and,
as
you
were
saying,
the
eliminating
human
error
is
one
of
the
one
of
the
main
selling
points
right,
because
otherwise
I
mean
we
do
have
some
financial
institutions
that
that
are
trustworthy,
I,
think
and
so
so
I
think
we're
also
having
like
regulated
D5.
AG
We
have
I
have
one
one
company
in
Germany
called
swarm
markets,
they
basically
they
have
a
license
from
buffin
and
they
are
fully
kyc
ml
regulated
trading
business.
But
then
they
haven't,
they
run
at
their
own
amm,
but
they
basically
only
let
kyc
participants
on
the
platform
so
so
you're
using
the
D5
protocol,
but
you're,
basically
also
using
the
best
standard
of
basically
having
trusted
trusted
counterparties
quickly.
AG
AF
Investment
ideas
for
you
sitting
out
there
just
on
D5
2.0.
You
had
some
interesting
points,
just
about
use
cases
and
the
evolution
of
D5
I
mean.
Do
we
really
need
to
call
it
D5
2.0
I
mean.
Is
it?
Is
that
even
a
consideration
or
is
it
just
the
evolution
of
D5?
It
doesn't
need
to
be
classified
as
something
else.
It
just
needs
to
be
improved.
Sure.
AH
That's
an
interesting
question:
we've
been
hearing
D5
2.0
for
a
while
yeah
I
am
very
guilty.
I
use
the
term
for
my
own
company
and
and
then
with
craft,
that
a
little
bit
more
Diva
thought
there
lately
I
feel
D5.
2.0
is
a
little
bit
like
bacteria
2.0
right
what
it,
what
is
it
it
can
be
bigger,
more
complex,
but
only
it
does
the
same
thing
go
back
to
you
know
the
history
of
it.
It
comes
from
something
very,
very
simple.
AH
On
purpose
right,
the
Bitcoin
was
created
with
a
limited
feature
set
intentionally
to
make
it
sustainable
long
term,
and
it
worked
pretty
well
and
as
D5
is
moving
away
into
more
and
more
complexity.
What
we
see
is:
okay,
we
talk,
we
have
a,
we
have
a
term
trustless
right,
but
it's
trustless
code,
but
who
makes
the
code
now
we
need
to
trust
the
people
that
make
the
code
now.
We
need
to
trust
the
people
that
audit
the
code
and
one
thing,
the
people
that
look
at
the
hacks,
not
everybody
realizes
that.
AH
Not
all
hacks
are
the
same.
It's
not
not.
A
lot
of
them
are
actually
technological
hacks.
Many
of
them
are
just
logical,
exploits
what's
even
worse.
A
lot
of
them
are
exploits
of
the
protocols
that
design
that
function
exactly
as
their
design.
In
other
words,
it's
it's
a
fold
in
how
they
fit
into
the
financial
ecosystem.
And,
finally,
it's
just
the
deficiency
of
the
financial
ecosystem
itself,
which
is,
as
a
gentleman
correctly
said
many
times
of
fragmentation.
Liquidity
is
a
huge
problem
and
defy
decentralized
right
means.
AH
It
implies
tremendous
variety
and
a
tremendous
variety
also
implies
tremendous
fragmentation
so
where
they
will
go
here
from
here
and
do
we
need
more
complexity
here.
So
for
myself
to
be
honest,
the
first
question
I
always
ask
if
I'm
concerned
the
project
is,
can
I
do
the
same
thing
without
blockchain
honestly,
do
I
need
blockchain?
My.
AF
AH
Then
you
have
to
be
very
clear
about
the
applied
ecosystem,
because
blockchain
has
done
a
lot
of
good
good
things.
You
know
for
people
to
whom,
for
instance,
banking
is
not
available
very
well,
but
at
the
same
time
it's
as
it
became
popular
The,
Hive
sort
of
taken
us
all
with
it
and
I'm
a
developer,
I
I'm
definitely
guilty
of
it.
We
love
to
shoot
flies
with
a
cannon.
It's
a
lot
of
fun,
really
annoys
the
Flies.
AH
Doesn't
do
anything
I
think
it's
time
to
to
go
back
on
the
basics
and
D5
has
done
very
well
I.
Think
it's
developed
as
much
as
it
can
anything
further.
I
would
actually
start
looking
for
additional
use
cases
rather
than
more
complexity.
Trying
to
fix
some
that
is
not
properly
applied
with
additional
complexity
is
probably
not
the
way
to
go
so
I
would
actually
steer
away
from
D5
to
Plano.
AE
D
AE
A
lot
of
bad
stuff
happened
and
what
I
see
as
defy
2.0
is
compliant
defy.
I
also
was
here
for
Anthony
scaramucci's
talk,
and
he
talked
about
the
fact
that
if
we
don't
have
compliance
and
regulation,
then
the
institutions
are
not
going
to
come
into
the
space
And.
While
I
agree
with
you
that
there's
other
use
cases,
the
current
use
case
has
not
been
fully
filled
in
there's,
not
enough
liquidity
in
that
space,
yet
for
it
to
be
fully
functional
and
what
will
bring
institutional
capital
in
except
regulation
compliance
risk
mitigation.
AG
But
I
think
we
need
a
hybrid
hybrid
system
for
for
normal
participants
to
to
come
in
I.E
institutions,
larger
investors,
private
investors,
who
basically
feel
comfortable
in
in
a
safe
space
where
they're,
where
they
are
compliant
with
their
with
their
mandate,
but
I
think
that
also
it.
We
need
to
also
have
a
space
where
people
can
just
participate
when
they
don't
have
access
to
banking.
AG
They
don't
have
access
to
financial
infrastructure,
because
if
you
have
token
and
you're
living
in
Africa
and
you
have
a
mobile
phone,
then
you
can
sadly
borrow
you-
can
borrow
100
to
to
buy,
to
buy
a
cart
full
of
oranges
and
sell
them.
And
then
you
basically
pay
back
the
the
money,
and
this
is,
if
you
don't
have
a
bank
and
you
don't
have
infrastructure.
This
is
kind
of
a
that's
kind
of
the
ideal
use
case
in
on
the
basic
level,
and
we
don't
need
a
lot
of
complexity.
AG
I
think
we
need
simple,
simple
protocols
that
that
can
do
that.
That
can
be
accessible
and
that
can
be
used
for
for
these
things,
and
then
we
maybe
need
something
more
complex
and
more
more
compliant.
For
for
bigger,
bigger
liquidity,
but
I
think
liquidity
is
lacking,
and
but
if
we
build
more
compliance
then
then
it
will
be
easier
to
access
I.
I
AF
I
Because
you
go
in
and
you're
getting
rug
pulled,
you're
getting
exploited,
there's
it's
really
for
experts
and
then
the
ability
to
get
your
capital
from
your
bank
account
into
a
metamask
wallet.
Four
five
six
steps.
So
we
need
to
really
improve
on
the
ease
of
use,
make
it
available
to
more
people
and
make
it
safer.
I.
AF
Had
an
interview
with
mate
to
mosque
institutional
in
Singapore
last
year
and
I
found
it
very
interesting
that
the
anecdote
was
they
had
some
investment
funds
that
were
literally
managing
hundreds
of
thousands
or
millions
of
dollars
worth
of
tokens
just
on
a
metamask
wallet,
not
like
just
how
you
have
your
mates
among
your
personal
mates
must
wallet,
you
know
millions
and
millions
of
dollars,
and
they
actually
got
nervous
about
it
because
they're,
like
people
shouldn't,
be
managing
their
money.
In
this
way,
do
you
think
Solutions
like
made
a
mask
institutional?
I
To
to
get
involved,
when
we
started,
we
were
using
fire
blocks,
we
migrated
to
I
think
a
better
platform
called
trustology
which
is
now
acquired
by
bitpanda
and
it's
an
mCP.
In
the
background.
Each
of
our
team
members
has
access
to
the
same
wallet.
We
can
set
daily
limits
permissions
to
move
cash
permissions
to
use
different
protocols,
so
it
allows
you
to
run
it
institutionally
and
not
have
kind
of
single
point
of
failure
on
someone's
laptop
I'm.
AF
I
I
think
it's
slowly
happening.
I
was
at
CFC
last
week
in
St
Moritz,
the
team
that's
running
digital
assets
at
Apollo
was
there
they've
actually
been
reasonably
active.
Apollo's
got
400
billion
in
credit,
they'd
love
to
start
lending
on
chain
just
need
to
figure
out
how
to
do
it.
Brevin
Howard
was
also
there
they've
raised
over
a
billion
in
digital
assets,
so
big
large
institutional
asset
managers
are
starting
to
get
into
space.
I
think
we'll
see
that
accelerate
over
the
next
three
to
five
years.
Is
it
a
trust
issue.
AG
It's
it's
a
trust
issue
and
and
a
compliance
issue
I
think
for
for
major
institutions.
They
they
need
to
be
compliant
in
order
to
be
able
to
do
anything
right.
So
as
long
as
you,
if
you,
if
you
have
a
compliant
access
point,
then
they
then
they
can
deploy
capital
I,
think
the
other.
The
other
problem
is
with
the
with
the
problem
we've
seen
with
centralized
exchanges.
I
think
there
is
going
to
be
a
Resurgence
in
D5,
because
you
want
to
have
a
non-custodial
solution
where
you
actually
keep
your
assets.
AG
You
only
put
them
on
on
the
venue
when
you
trade
and
then
you
you
take
them
back
or
you.
Basically,
the
the
assets
go
into
or
into
your
sort
of
non-custodial,
safe
wallet
with
the
different
solutions
and
I
think
that
is
still
lacking,
because
the
deck
solutions
that
are
there,
Unis,
uni,
Swap
and
and
so
forth,
they
are,
they
are
fine,
but
they
they're
not
very
efficient.
The
margins
are
too
big.
AG
You
can't
move
big
volumes
because
then
you
move
the
market,
so
you
need
a
sort
of
a
hybrid
model
where
you
have
a
centralized
exchange,
but
with
a
non-custodial
access
and
one
I
mean
one
of
my
portfolio,
companies
is
building
that
so
I
hope
they
that
comes
to
Market
they're,
also
in
some
in
summer
Ritz
last
week.
So
that's
that's
hopeful,
but
I.
AF
AF
AF
AE
AH
AH
Why
do
you
go
to
the
DDM
Ameritrade
versus
IB?
It's
in
exchange
right,
but
what?
If
the
Ameritrade
promises?
One
can
dream
not
to
do
payment
for
order
flow
or
not
to
do
preferential
cancellation
rights
or
things
like
that
and
then
prove
it
yeah
using
D5
using
blockchain
I,
think
that
would
be
huge
and
that
probably
will
introduce
the
liquidity
that
we're
hurting
for
for
because
it
felt
like
we're
starting
to
sort
of
boiling
in
our
own
sauce,
and
that
is
expiring.
AH
We
need
to
draw
more
liquidity
from
the
outside
of
our
group
that
maybe
haven't
been
exposed
to
us.
Maybe
is
scared
of
us
for
a
good
reason,
yeah.
Maybe
so
let
we
need.
We
need
a
better
interface.
We
need
to
be
more
buttoned
up
and
we
need
to
go
to
traditional
Finance
and
and
draw
them
in
I
was
drawing.
You
know
I
used
to
run
25
Traders
as
a
Quant
for
my
own
hedge
fund,
and
here
I
am
for
some
reason.
AE
AF
A
Very
much
thank
you
guys.
Let's
give
them
a
very
hearty
thank
you
as
they
leave
the
stage
we're
keeping
in
with
the
defy
topic.
Actually,
we've
heard
a
lot
of
these
terms
thrown
around
throughout
the
day,
taking
a
look
at
self-sovereign
identity,
self-sovereign,
custody,
compliance,
Etc
and
I'm
very
excited
to
say
that
our
next
sorry
that
our
next
Keynote
here
we
go
we'll
take
a
closer
look
at
exactly
that
I'm
pleased
to
as
those
of
you
that
leave
the
stage.
Please
do
make
sure
you
don't
congest
the
staircase.
A
Let's
make
sure
that
we
can
get
those
that
want
to
come
in
in
those
that
want
to
get
out
out
to
everyone
over
by
the
stairs
hello.
Yes,
the
stage
program
does
continue.
Let's
make
sure
that
you're
not
clogging
the
stairs,
those
that
want
to
come
down.
Let's
make
sure
we
give
them
access
to
those
that
are
looking
to
go
up.
A
Let's
make
sure
we
give
them
the
ability
to
go
up,
and
let's
give
a
very
warm
welcome
to
our
next
keynote
again
we're
taking
a
look
at
the
next
era
of
self-custody,
self-sovereign,
identity
and
compliant
defy
I
am
welcoming
to
the
stage
Rasheed
azhaja
he's
the
founder
and
CEO
of
Alliance
block
and
he'll
be
taking
a
look
at
one
particular
project
of
his.
That
I
personally
am
quite
excited
about.
Let's
give
a
warm
welcome
to
Rasheed.
AD
So
thanks
Tracy
and
thank
you
everyone,
so
the
objective
of
today
is
really
to
speak
about
sexover
and
identity,
self-custed
and
compliant
G5.
So
we
have
here
in.
We
have
been
hearing
a
lot
of
lots
of
about
FTX
today
and,
like
all
the
collabs
like,
what's
happened
actually
and
to
show
that
decentralized
space
and
what
is
happening
when
we
have
to
I
would
say,
centralized
space
that
are
actually
controlling
the
data
of
the
users
so
from
in
2000
2022.
AD
There
was
actually
really
a
roller
coaster
because
we
had
FTX,
we
had
three
Euro
capital
and
we
had
Celsius
and
I
would
say.
I
would
not
say
again
what
happened
with
FTX
and
all
the
things
that
we
said
today,
but
I
would
say.
The
lesson
are
three
points
that
are
very,
very
important.
The
first
point
is
lack
of
self-custody
users.
They
don't
owe
their
their
wallet,
they
don't
own
their
assets.
So
the
second
problem
is
the
minimal
privacy.
AD
Ftx
has
access
to
all
the
data
of
the
users,
and
the
third
problem
is
the
lack
of
compliance,
so
FTX
wasn't
regulated,
and
these
three
problems
are
the
one
that
actually
like
bring
this.
This
I
would
I
would
call
it
fraud,
so
in
order
basically
to
bring
really
sustainable
defile,
it's
very
important
to
have
like
the
most
three
important
Spillers.
The
first
pillar
is
self-casted.
Your
wallets
okay,
people
need
to
own
their
assets.
AD
The
second
is
privacy,
people
need
to
own
their
data
and
they
need
to
choose
who
to
give
access
and
revoke
access,
and
the
third
is
basically
regulatory
framework.
Regulatory
framework
is
here
to
help
as
well
to
give
the
framework
to
bring
money
from
traditional
Finance,
but
also
to
protect
retail,
so
I'm
Rashida,
founder
and
say
of
Alliance
block.
We
are
building
the
bridge
between
traditional
finance
and
decentralized
finance,
we're
at
D5
at
the
core,
and
this
is
very
important
for
me,
because
D5
exists
because
of
the
community,
so
we
are
here
to
protect
community.
AD
So
last
year
we
heard
a
lot
about
Dynamic
nfts,
which
are
basically
taking
reachable
data
and
they
are
evolving
this
year.
Actually,
we
have
something
that
is
really
new,
which
is
meta
nft.
So
what
is
Meta
nft
Meta
nft
are
basically
mutable,
composable
and
extensible,
so
this
meta
nft
acts
as
a
data
container,
and
this
actually
offers
huge
number
of
of
use
cases
and
then,
on
the
other
guys
on
the
other
case,
we
have
wallets
wallets,
like
metamask
wallet,
connect,
surface
schedule
or
even
social
wallets.
Okay.
AD
So
if
we
mix
these
two,
we
are
able
actually
to
create
smart
wallets,
because
we
are
able
to
embed
rules-
and
this
is
answered
perfectly
to
what
happened
before.
How
can
we
make
defy
compliance
without
basically
losing
privacy?
Okay,
without
losing
like
without
giving
the
control
to
or
to
have
a
middleman?
So,
okay,
these
rules
are
able,
with
the
smart
wallet,
to
be
able
to
open
the
door
to
the
self-custody
to
the
Privacy
through
self-sovereign
identity,
which
means
we
have
a
lot
about
verifiable,
credential
and
security.
AD
What
I
mean
by
security
here
is
that
the
users
are
able
to
put
rules
to
be
able
to
get
notification.
If
there
is
a
transaction
and
then
they
will
be
able
to
recover
their
assets
and
when
they
recover
their
assets,
if
there
is
a
hack
or
they
lose
their
name,
only
call
it
or
they
use
their
private
key
or
they
forget
it.
So
this
is
very,
very
important,
so
safe
custodial
I
think
I
will
not
go
a
lot
because
we
heard
a
lot
about
itself
custodial
today.
AD
But
what
I
will
add
is
that
this
new
standard
that
is
nft
as
data
container,
it
will
embed
identity.
It
will
embed
verifiable
credential
to
your
out
to
your
digital
assets,
which
also
own
all
your
assets,
but
also
the
rules
with
whom
I
can
interact
and
with
whom
I
don't
want
to
interact,
and
this
is
really
the
foundation
for
the
compliant
D5.
AD
AD
AD
Application
will
become
compliant
so
by
defining
the
rules
and
procedures
how
to
interact
with
their
protocol,
and
this
is
the
perfect
example
of
how
can
we
bring
compliant
defy
into
life
while
protecting
the
privacy
of
users
so
self-custody
Self,
Storage
identity,
disease
and
security
team,
which
is
prevented
from
hack
and
like
if
you
lose
your
wallet?
It's
basically
that
is
bringing
us
to
this.
What
I
said
earlier
is
the
defy
compliant
applications.
AD
So
one
example
that
actually
let
us
unlock
use
the
number
of
use
cases,
one
of
them.
Everyone
heard
about
bonds,
tokenization
of
bonds,
and
we
have
sdx
that
issue
the
first
actually
tokenized
Bond,
but
imagine
that
the
bonds
it's
composable.
So
we
can
edit
information.
It
is
not
in
a
permissioned
way,
but
it
could
be
in
compliant
permissionless
way
where
users
are
where
we
are
able
to
to
edit
the
data
to
this
meta
nft
to
the
NFC.
As
data
container,
we
are
able
to
fractionalize
it.
AD
We
are
able
to
put
it
as
collateral,
so
it's
open
a
lot
of
doors
when
we
can
have
this
composability,
this
extensibility
and
this
notability.
So
I
spoke
a
little
bit
about
the
next
era.
It's
a
huge
subject.
There
are
lots
of
things
to
say,
but
I
will
I
will
introduce
nextera
ID,
which,
which
is
actually
the
solution.
AD
AB
Through
a
seamless
user,
onboarding
and
conversion,
your
users
will
benefit
from
self-sovereign
identities
and
Regulatory
Compliance
is
coming
to
web
3..
Simple
integration
of
regulatory
Frameworks
has
never
been
easier.
Introducing
nexera
ID
next
era.
Id
allows
you
to
build
the
compliance
rules.
Your
business
needs.
You
can
select
from
many
off-the-shelf
templates
or
create
custom
rules
tailored
for
you.
You
can
easily
embed
the
rules
into
your
application
with
the
fully
customizable
nexera
ID
wallet
SDK,
which
ensures
a
streamlined
and
compliant
onboarding
for
your
users
with
nexera
ID.
AB
Your
users
are
onboarded
either
on
a
self-custodial,
smart
wallet
or
on
your
own
custodial
infrastructure
from
there
they
can
generate
verifiable
credentials
and
use
them
as
part
of
your
verification
process.
Neither
you
nor
nexera
ID
will
need
to
process
any
private
user
information,
reduce
the
cost
and
risk
of
compliance
enforcement
and
optimize
your
main
Revenue
stream
through
a
seamless
user,
onboarding
and
conversion.
Your
use
will
benefit
from
self-sovereign
identities
and
smart
wallets
that
are
readily
usable
in
hundreds
of
other
applications
that
integrate
with
the
nexera
cross
chain.
AD
A
All
right,
thank
you.
Rasheed
I'll
get
to
welcome
you
back
to
the
stage
in
a
second
because
we're
staying
in
this
topic
very
much
so
I'm
doing
a
bit
of
a
deep
dive
in
the
form
of
a
fireside
chat,
taking
a
look
at
empowering
customers
and
safeguarding
your
assets.
Self-Sovereign,
identity,
self-custody
and
compliant
defy
I'm
excited
to
Welcome
to
the
stage
our
moderator,
Roland
kogans
he's
a
partner
at
llm
law.
He
is
joined
by
Misha
roon
CTO
at
Bonk
Dao,
as
well
as,
of
course
Rasheed,
the
founder
and
CEO
of
Alliance
block.
AL
Sure
thank
you
Ronald
and
the
City
of
the
pong
Dao
and
at
bank
Dao.
We
are
all
about
allowing
more
or
facilitating
more
liquidity
in
defy,
and
our
ultimate
vision
is
to
include
real
world
assets
into
D5,
and
this
will
not
be
possible
without
a
solution
like
next
era.
Id
that
allows
kyc
and
identity
to
be
stored
in
D5,
and
we
used
in
D5.
AK
Thanks,
so
the
promise
of
Defy
is
basically
that
we
start
to
rely
on
hard
code
which
is
decentralized
executed,
so
that
there
is
no
discretion
instead
of
relying
on
written
rules,
as
we
have
now
that
are
always
subject
to
discretion
and
control,
and
so,
let's
start
with
you
rush
it.
We
have
seen
before
you
have
talked
about
nfts
about
Dynamic
nfts,
which
can
store
metadata,
and
now
we
also
talked
about
meta
nfts.
And
now
can
you
elaborate
a
little
bit
more
in
practice?
How
how
can
this
be
implemented?
What
is
the
benefit?
AD
So
Meta
NFC
for
for
us
is
something
that
is
very
important
because
it
bring
really
Innovation
about
what
is
happening
today,
as
I
said
earlier,
are
based
on
the
three
very
very
important
Concepts.
So
we
have
the
mutability
things:
change
evolve.
It
could
be
an
avatar,
it
could
be
financial
instruments,
it
could
be
whatever
kind
of
things.
The
second
thing
is
the
extensibility.
We
are
able
to
edit
information
which
could
be
in
gaming
in
metaverse,
but
it
could
be
also
in
finance
or
G5.
AD
The
third
point
is
the
composability
composability,
which
means
being
being
attached.
Datash.
We
can
split
information,
I
have
an
assets,
I
want
to
be
able
to
split
it
and
to
sell
it.
However,
this
the
most
the
core
importance
about
this
standard
is
that
you
have
your
identity,
which
is
embedded
and
your
identity
is
able
to
have
your
verifiable
credential
that
you
can
share.
You
can
give
access,
you
can
revoke
access,
and
this
is
how
you
can
build
all
the
compliant
framework
so
to
come
back.
AD
It
is
absolutely
not
centralized,
because
we
can
speak
about
meta,
nfts
tokens
assets,
but
at
the
end
there
are
tools.
The
most
important
thing
is
to
have
the
way
that
you
will
be
able
to
interact
with
these
tools
that
will
be
easy
for
the
users,
but
also
bring
in
really
safe
and
trustful
environments
and
trustless
that
will
be
able
to
have
really
bring
in
the
financial.
I
would
say
traditional
Financial
money
into
the
decentralized
finding
space,
and
we
spoke
a
little
bit
quickly
about
Mica
and
fat
rules,
and
this
is
which
will
bring
the
framework.
AD
So
we
need
to
be
able
to
include
this
framework,
okay
within
the
technology,
without
compromising
into
privacy
or
on
the
security
without
having
any
middlemen.
So
I
do
believe
that
Banks
can
use
this
kind
of
digital
wallets
which
are
based
on
the
standard.
But
we
don't
know
we
don't
need
to
tell
two
people
it's
based
on
this.
It's
basically
just
a
tools
that
will
be
able
to
help
achieve
certain
outcomes.
AD
AK
Basically,
you're
saying
that
the
self
throwing
identity
contains
data
that
can
automatically
be
aligned
with
the
rules
that
are
defined
in
the
code
of
the
D5
infrastructure
and
that
then
access
can
be
verified,
but
over
to
you,
Mika
I
mean
who
defines
the
rules
and
I
mean
Mika
is
again
notice,
no
code
based
it's
human
code
and
someone
has
to
define
the
rules
and
it's
not
anymore.
The
initial
Spirit
of
deploying
a
code
and
code
is
law.
So
how
do
you
see
that.
AL
Well,
it's
not
because
it's
defined
by
humans
that
code
cannot
be
your
law.
I
mean
the
the.
If
we
want
to
accept
institutions
like
Bank
Dao
is
an
over
collateralized
lending
protocol.
So
we
we
accept
collateral
and
we
issue
a
stable
coin,
and
if
we
want
to
accept
collateral
that
is
linked
to
a
legal
restriction
like
real
estate,
for
example,
real
estate
in
Switzerland
is
linked
to
a
lot
of
legal
restrictions,
so
we
need
to
get
some
identity
information
from
the
user
so
and
in
time.
This
is
exactly
what
we
want
to
do.
AL
Who
is
the
we?
So
we
means
the
Dao
does
not
want
to
be
outside
of
the
law.
The
Tao
is
still
a
community
of
humans.
It's
when
we
say
code
is
law.
An
organization
is
still
a
community
of
humans.
It's
not
a
community
of
machines
and
there
are
very
few
pure
smart
contracts
that
protocols
that
have
just
been
launched
out
there
and
that
are
left
to
to
be
because
you
need
somebody
to
be
able
to
evolve
the
smart
contract,
or
else
it
will
just
live
for
some
time
and
then
die
off.
AD
No
I
don't
believe
so
because
we
have
the
self-regulation.
Okay,
so
I
do
not
believe
a
lot
in
self-regulation
because
it
can
really
bring
like
a
lot
of
I
would
say
like
negative
points
specifically,
if
it's
not
really
something
that
is
like
a
compromising,
let's
say
the
trust
or
privacy,
and
on
the
other
side
we
have
the
lawmakers
that
are
bringing
actually
some
regulation.
AD
Sometimes
there
is
like
a
huge
decoration
between
lawmakers
and
what
is
happening
in
D5
and
what's
happened
in
the
previous,
actually
like
one
of
the
panels
that
indeed
lawmakers
are
starting
to
know
to
to
be
interested
into
the
D5.
So
how
can
we
interact
with
this
wallet?
How
can
we
interact
with
these
protocols?
AD
So
we
will
always
have
lawmakers
okay,
but
the
good
thing
is
that,
like
some
protocols
and
companies
will
have
to
comply
with
this
law,
which
means
that
they
need
to
embed
these
rules,
okay
in
the
code,
but
on
the
other
side,
why
we
speak
about
the
Privacy.
It's
like
the
users
is
able
to
choose
if
he
want
to
interact
with
this
with
this
with
this
protocol.
AD
If
you
want
to
interact
with
this,
if
he
doesn't
want
to
interact,
which
means
or
to
share
his
verifiable
credential
or
to
share
like
that,
he
he
has
done
to
kyc,
he
will
not
be
able
to
interact,
so
it
still
is
optional.
I
would
say
for
the
user,
so
tomorrow,
like
I,
want
to
be
able
to
be
in
the
article
I
want
to
be
in
compliant
pool.
I
have
to
show
that
I
am
actually
verified.
AK
But
I
I
still
have
a
hard
time
to
understand
that
I
mean
Mika
is
one
loss.
We
send
us
different
laws
of
the
counties
of
other
laws.
So
how?
How
can
you
implement
this
into
a
decentralized
infrastructure
which
is
code
that
is
deployed
and,
hopefully
not
changeable
anymore?
So
how
would
it
work
in
practice
so.
AD
There
is
now
what
we
call
the
diamond
standard
that
is
actually
a
code
that
is
upgradable,
where
there
is
a
lot
of
things
about
the
upgradability
of
the
code.
But
the
good
thing
is
that
you
can
always
have
lawmakers.
We
can
have
proof
of
authorities
in
different
jurisdictions
that
are
able
to
update
the
rules.
AD
Of
course,
we
need
to
be
cautious
about
this,
so,
on
the
other
side,
this
to
be
able
to
implement,
we
have
still
like
I,
was
speaking
with
some
traditional
Banking
and
they
said
if
I
want
to
do,
there
is
one
guy
that
is
doing
kyc
to
be
able
to
be
in
the
private
banking,
but
to
be
able
to
go
on
the
on
the
on
the
Investment
Bank.
You
need
to
do
again
the
kyc
being
able
to
do
kyc
in
Switzerland.
AD
It's
not
the
same
flow
to
do
it
in
the
in
the
UK,
so
we
need
to
have
actually
different
kyc
providers,
AML
lawmaker
perjurisdictions,
and
we
need
to
be
able
to
have
these
rules.
That's
because
if
I
am
a
project
that
want
to
interact
cross-border,
it's
about
how
people
from
other
jurisdiction
interacts
with
me
and
how
I
am
interacting
with
also
cross
jurisdiction.
AD
Okay,
so
I
don't
need
to
know
all
the
law
order,
jurisdiction
about
happening,
so
I
am
a
user
that
is
not
new
as
citizen
that
is
in
Europe
I
want
to
purchase,
let's
say
a
tokenized
share
in
Switzerland,
okay,
so
first
I
I'm,
not
a
U.S
citizen,
I,
live
in
European
union
and
then
I
have
some
checks.
That
will
be
giving
me
the
authorization
of
pre-compliance
check
to
be
able
to
purchase
the
security,
but
if
I
have,
for
example,
I
am
from
the
US
or
I
have
certain
restriction.
AK
Said
that's
an
interesting
case,
so
we
are
going
back
to
your
example
with
real
estate.
So
let's
assume
real
estate
has
been
tokenized
on
Bonk
and
the
tower
has
verified
and
said:
okay,
it
needs
to
be
registered
in
Switzerland
and
there
is
maybe
also
Lex
color,
which,
which
is
an
additional
restriction,
but
who
enforces
the
rules
so.
AL
If
we
want
to
get
the
institutional
players
into
defy,
we
need
to
show
that
we
are
compliant
with
the
regulation
and
the
law,
and
so
I
think
there
is
more
money
that
that
could
come
from
these
institutional
investors
than
from
retail
investors
outside
of
the
jurisdiction.
And
this
is
what
will
drive
the
the
adoption
of
these
rules,
because
you're
right
I
don't
have
to
but
I'm
incentivized
too,
because
I
want
to
be
successful.
AL
No,
not
at
all,
so
we
we
allow
projects
who
have
tokens
to
use
these
tokens
to
access
the
value
of
the
token
by
minting
a
stablecoin
without
selling
the
token.
So
it
gives
a
lot
of
players
tools
that
they
don't
have
today
to
do.
Leverage
trading,
for
example,
to
provide
liquidity
without
doing
liquidity
mining,
which
are
very
powerful
tools
that
they
don't
have
today
and
which
bunk'd
out
will
give
them
access
to
so
I
think
it's
a
Synergy.
Of
course,
we
will
compete
with
some.
AK
So
a
lot
of
people
in
other
panels
and
also
if
you
talk
to
people
in
the
community
are
saying
we
are
still
at
the
beginning
and
yes,
self-sering
identity.
We
have
heard
that
it's
existing,
but
in
your
case
Russia,
do
you
think
it's
it's
the
time
already
now
that
you
can
say?
Yes,
we
are
ready
to
implement.
AD
So
there
are
two
things
there
is
being
able
to
implement
the
technology
and
to
be
usable.
Yes
having
adoption.
We
are
not
yet
there
because
adoption
is
not
about
the
technology,
but
it's
about
the
way
that
you
will
interact
with
the
technology.
So
why
do
exchanges
have
lots
of
users
compared,
for
example,
to
D5,
even
if
people
they
know
that
they
don't
own
their
assets?
It's
because
it's
easy
click
button!
You
go,
you
create
your
account
and
then
you
can
you
can
trade.
You
can
do
whatever
you
want.
AD
Okay,
so
we
need
first
to
be
able
to
complete,
delete
this
High
barrier.
We're
giving
codes
like
I
need
to
buy
this
ethereum
to
be
able
to
buy
these
assets
on
if
I
am
in
ethereum
and
so
on
so
forth.
So
this
is
so
the
most
important
things
is
to
be
able
to
have
abstraction
of
the
technology,
which
is
easy
for
the
users
to
be
able
to
be
onboarded.
The
second
one
is
indeed
to
be
able
to
have
the
the
ownership
of
your
data
generate
very
fibers
or
verifiable.
AD
So
even
if
we
have
decentralized
protocol,
we
are
using
the
same
centralized
systems
for
the
users,
which
is
absolutely
not
good,
so
control
of
the
identity,
okay,
which
the
to
be
able
to
have
abstraction
of
the
all
the
complexity
to
on
the
user
journey.
I
think
and
the
trust
this
is
very,
very
important.
I
would
say.
AL
AL
So
it's
I
think
this
is
very
useful
and
as
to
the
question,
how
fast
can
it
be
adopted?
Well,
it
depends
if
we
can
get
a
good
user
experience
in
place,
but
I
think
in
the
next
two
years
we
will
see
massively
bigger
adoption
than
we
have
today.
So
today
we
talk
about
two
percent
crypto
holders
in
the
population.
I
guess
we're
gonna
at
least
10x.
That.
AD
Yes,
absolutely
actually,
you
said
something
that
is
very
important
once
we
had
FTX
collapse
and
once
we
have
like
the
Celsius
and
raw
and
the
Luna.
Actually
there
was
a
huge
spike
in
term
of
trading
volume
in
decentralized
exchange.
It
was
absolutely
insane-
and
this
is
coming
more
and
more
so
we
have
lots
of
protocols
that
are
focusing
on
the
user
Journey,
which
is
absolutely
important
adoption.
It
will
come
step
by
step
because
we
need
to
self-serve
an
identity.
We
need
to
have
wallets
that
are
easy
to
interact
with.
We
need
to
have
account
abstraction.
AD
We
need
to
have
be
able
to
connect,
so
the
composability
to
connect
with
multiple
protocol
to
be
able
to
choose
each
protocol
will
have
its
rules.
It
should
it
can
be
completely
decentralized
with
Anonymous
player,
but
they
can
still
create
actually
whitelisted
food
where
only
people
that
are
kyc
that
will
be
to
use
it
so
I
think
now,
in
my
opinion,
we
have
all
the
block
to
start
getting
adoption
more
and
people
are
working
on
the
UI
and
ux
to
have
it
easy.
AD
More
people
are
working
on
the
counter
abstraction,
something
that
is
very
important.
I,
don't
know
if
the
audience
know
which
we
call
Meta
transactions.
So
Meta
transactions
are
basically
decentralized
third
party
that
are
rapid
transaction
from
the
user,
so
the
users
they
don't
need
to
pay
gas,
okay
and
they
still
decentralized.
So
we
have
all
the
components.
AD
I
think
we
need
to
be
able
to
have
collaboration
with
different
protocols,
socialized
and
decentralized,
well,
I'm,
more
text
than
sex
to
be
honest
and
then
to
be
able
to
have
these
rules
to
protect
the
users
to
create
framework.
I
think
this
is
very,
very
important
and
I
do
believe
that
these
nfts,
that
act
as
a
data
container,
will
play
a
huge
role.
AK
A
All
right,
let's
thank
them
as
they
head
on
out
to
those
Brave
few
of
you
that
have
lasted
through
the
entire
second
Vlog
I,
relieve
you
of
your
duties
as
an
as
an
audience
you
get
to
enjoy.
30
minutes
of
networking
upstairs
will
reconvene
at
6
00
PM
as
we
head
into
our
final
block
of
programming
on
day,
one
which
will
be
dedicated
to
policy
politics,
standards
and
regulation.
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
Hello,
hello:
we
are
heading
into
block
three
of
our
programming
join
us
downstairs
in
the
next
five
minutes
so
that
you
can
participate
in
the
last
hour
to
hour
and
a
half
of
programming.
We
have
some
excellent
speakers
lined
up,
including
a
very
special
panel,
closing
us
out
for
today
by
Politico,
so
do
make
sure
to
head
downstairs
now
again
we're
starting
in
five
minutes,
foreign.
A
A
A
A
A
A
AM
Thanks
guys,
thank
you
well
really
glad
to
be
here
thanks
to
CV
labs,
and
you
know
Casper
labs,
to
invite
a
few
things.
The
narrative
in
the
industry
in
the
past
few
weeks
has
been
around.
Let's
restore
confidence.
Let's
go
back
to
basics.
Let's
go
back
to
focusing
on
you,
know
more
of
a
utilitarian
asset
than
speculative
asset
and
when,
when
we're
deciding
the
title
for
this
show-
or
this
particular
session,
we're
looking
into
as
to
what
makes
sense
and
by
the
way
as
a
technologist
I
use,
chat
GPT.
AM
Many
of
you
have
heard
and
read
to
construct
this,
which
means
what
I
also
learned
is
you
have
to
ask
the
right
questions?
You
have
to
extract
right
information.
It's
been
super
interesting,
so
the
title
itself
was
a
sum
total
of
a
slew
of
things
that
became
about,
and
this
was
more
catchy.
So
this
is
the
interesting
experiment
that
I
did
to
have
the
entire
deck
crafted
and
it
took
me
a
lot
more
than
what
I
could
have
done
had
done
this
on
my
own.
AM
So,
of
course,
you
know
how
to
know
the
domain,
expertise
and
everything
else
go
with
it.
So
that's
an
interesting
area.
Actually,
you
know
I
think
you
should
look
into,
but
setting
the
stage.
I
use
the
word
and
I
have
a
podcast
like
many
of
us
in
this
space,
a
little
bit
about
myself
prior
to
this
I
founded
blockchain
labs,
and
this
last
lap
in
in
you
know
at
IBM,
I've
dabbled
into
hedge
funds
for
a
few
years
crafted
the
risk
model
framework.
AM
Some
of
these
learnings
come
from
that
framework
dabbled
into
VC
funds,
so
we've
been
doing
100
different
things
to
understand
the
space
and
the
reason
why
I
call
it
Con,
you
know
contagion
of
incompetence
is
because
the
effort
of
many
of
us
have
been
the
space
for
a
decade
has
been
completely
obliterated
and
erased
because
of
the
things
that
we
have
seen
in
2022
and
I'll.
Give
you
a
summary
of
that
in
a
few
minutes.
But
what
you
should
also
understand
is:
there's
many
of
us
behind
the
scenes
with
not
so
much
star
power.
AM
Looking
into
this
in
terms
of
fixing
the
industry
and
looking
into
what
we
set
out
to
do,
which
is
things
like
economic
inclusion,
figuring
out
and
removing
inefficiency
of
of
you
know
of
financial
markets,
understanding
and
and
figuring
out,
a
truly
global
system
that
allows
us
to
be
able
to
move
value.
So
all
that
we've
been
talking
about,
which
is
about
14
years
back,
that
has,
you
know,
set
forth.
So
this
whole
conversation
for
seven
minutes
is
really
to
inspire
as
opposed
to
educate
from
that
perspective.
AM
And
so,
if
you
look
at
any
of
these
things,
it
is
a
contagion
of
incompetence.
Incompetence
on
many
of
us
who
ignored
and
focused
more
on
Star
Powers
ignored.
The
basic
element
of
due
dilens
I
will
not
go
into
details
because
this
has
been
covered
enough
in
the
media,
but
things
like
token
issuance
token
economic
models.
Have
we
not
looked
into
that?
Have
we
not
looked
at
the
basics
of
how
the
funds
are
raised
and
accumulated
and
invested
going
forward?
AM
What
happened
to
the
risk
models
that
every
single
financial
institution,
including
as
as
small
as
a
hedge
fund
of
Adventure
fund?
Have
you
not
devised
those
models
in
the
past?
If
you
look
at
Celsius
and
3ac
what
happened
to
Collateral?
What
happened
to
some
of
the
things
that
we
have
taken
care
of
and
what
happened
to
blockchain?
AM
Anybody
wants
to
give
a
guess
how
much
was
erased.
Well,
that
is
the
total
valuation,
but
784
billion
dollars.
I
have
I'm
just
on
time.
I
could
debate
this,
but
700
784
billion
dollars
was
completely
erased
and
Lion's
Share
of
that
was
the
hacks
and
and
and
stealing
of
funds
and
I'll
go
into
a
bit
more
details
in
that
front.
But
the
whole
idea
there
was
that
we've
lost
so
much
of
value.
AM
Some
of
them
was
just
valuation,
and
this
is
It's
cyclical
where
you
have
a
scam,
it
affects
the
industry,
you
have
reputation,
risk
value
goes
down
and
the
cycle
continues
and
that
cyclical
element
has
caused
this
level
of
decay
in
what
we
have
made
the
progress
in
the
last
12
plus
years.
What's
interesting
in
this
case
is
the
first.
The
point
number
one
is
FTX
lunar
Celsius
3sc,
of
course,
centralized
C5
systems
collectively,
but
what
you
see
the
below
the
nine
things
or
11
things
that
I've
cited
out.
AM
They
have
a
good
old
plane
protocol
hacks,
which
we're
not
talking
about
because
there's
no
face
behind
it.
These
are
D5
hacks.
These
are
rock
pulls
that
has
happened
programmatically
or
has
included
in
some
of
the
token
economic
systems,
which
I
think
we
have
to
go
back
to
again
looking
into
custodial
Finance
looking
into
why
we've
gone
to
the
space
in
the
first
place.
AM
That
to
me,
is
a
new
opportunity.
I
think
we
should
focus
on
that
going
forward.
I'll
give
a
little
bit
more
detail
on
those
fronts,
but
many
of
these
things
are
risk
factors
that
we
should
begin
to
consider
as
we
devise
this
new
economic
system
looking
into
rockpools.
This
to
me
is
a
new
opportunity,
so
entrepreneurs
in
the
room,
so
so
there's
a
ccra
framework
which
many
of
the
exchange
in
the
US
have
employed
to
ensure
that
you
don't
have
a
hex
in
your
protocol
economic
systems
as
they
list.
AM
The
token
your
token
is
sound,
it
has
sound
economic
system,
it's
truly
decentralized,
so
you
have
all
these
little
metrics
that
they
look
into
and
to
achieve
the
listing.
Many
of
the
elements
that
you
go
into
this
they
look
into
having
a
code.
Audit
and
code
audit
looks
into
safety
a
threat,
safety
or
safety
of
the
ability
for
token
to
be
misused,
but
what
they
don't
look
for
is
economic
flaws,
because
codification
of
Any,
smart
contract,
codification
of
any
D5
or
amm
protocol
doesn't
include
the
economic
system.
AM
It'll
still
function
as
designed
so
I
think
there's
a
new
area,
a
new
field
that
I
see
this
emerging
where
we
begin
to
look
into
token
design.
So
many
of
them
and
I've
been
focusing
this
on
about
two
and
a
half
years
is
focusing
on
token
design
and
how
that's
codified
into
an
economic
system
or
financial
product
is
focusing
on
some
of
those
Elements,
which
I
think
will
be
something
that
we
should
look
into
going
forward.
AM
The
Fallout
what
happens
when
things
go
wrong?
Well,
we've
seen
that
40
bills
in
the
US
Congress
is
Mica.
There's
a
hodgepodge
of
regulatory
challenges
around
the
world
which
gives
an
opportunity
for
regulatory
Arbitrage
that
we
have
been
coining
and
then
you
look
into
this
massive
regulation
and
then,
on
the
long
run.
Each
of
these
things
begin
to
look
and
feel
like
traditional
Financial
products,
which
is
not
the
intent
of
why
we
all
got
in
the
in
in
the
industry.
AM
And
so
the
whole
element
of
this
that
you
should
take
away
from
this
bigger
slide
is
that
if
suddenly
now,
I'm
dealing
with
Taxation
and
looking
at
Accounting
Standards,
looking
at
what
fatf
fasb
and
the
alphabet
soup
of
the
regulatory
College
of
regulators
are
doing
in
this
case.
Well,
they're
actually
pushing
the
needle
forward,
and
the
lens
that
we
have
applied
for
traditional
financial
instruments
is
the
same
lens
that
we're
applying
to
this
new
industry
and
new
asset
class.
And
if
we
do
that,
we're
not
only
taking
away
from
the
Innovative
powers
of
the
industry.
AM
But
we
also,
in
my
opinion,
are
taking
away
the
potential
disruption
that
we
all
have
envisioned
of
having
a
truly
Global
Financial
system.
That
goes
with
it
and
again
not
to
mention
the
fact
that
it's
going
to
be
a
hotspot
of
things
happening
in
all
different
worlds,
and
we
have
come
back
to
the
same
system
that
we
have
aimed
to
disrupt
and
change
with
the
new
asset
class,
and
we
haven't
really
changed
anything
I
know
a
lot
of
times.
AM
I'm
gonna,
take
one
more
minute:
I
wrote
a
paper
on
each
of
this
topics
so
follow.
You
know,
connect
with
me.
Don't
follow
me,
connect
with
me
and
have
a
dialogue
where
I
look
into
devising
a
new
Capital,
Market
infrastructure
or
Capital
Market
structure,
it's
a
new
asset
class,
a
new
transaction
system,
and
if
you
look
at
the
existing
Market
infrastructure,
which
is
designed
for
introducing
latencies
introducing
counterparties
to
ensure
that
there's
the
risk
that
we
have
experienced
doesn't
happen
if
we
apply
the
same
Capital,
Market
infrastructure
or
Capital
Market
structure.
AM
Rather,
then
again,
we
have
not
really
solved
anything
because
now
you
have
the
same
challenges
of
liquidity
and
same
challenges
of
of
things.
That
is,
you
know.
Our
existing
system
is
designed
for
rethinking
stable
coins.
I've
spent
a
lot
of
time
on
this
topic
where,
when
you
actually
move
stable
coins,
you're
picking
a
stable
coin,
you're
also,
inheriting
the
economic
votes,
whether
it's
looking
into
Global
macro
inflation
and
many
of
the
elements
it
it
inherits,
because
we
are
now
simply
translating
a
tokenized
form
of
dollar.
AM
And
then
you
look
into
more
esoteric
elements
of
asset
pricing
that
goes
into
these
areas.
We
do
need
to
look
into
Market
data.
This
is
really
really
important.
It's
a
transparent
system
that
focuses
on
element
of
our
ability
to
understand
and
see
what's
happening,
and
that
is
the
strength
of
it.
We
should
not
forget
that
so
not
just
Market
data
of
the
assets,
but
also
in
terms
of
who's.
Doing
what
on
on
the
Chain,
the
last
thing,
I
would
say,
is
creation
of
a
SRO.
AM
Their
regular
industry
has
benefit
from
it
and
I
think
that
and
I've
opined
on
this
for
a
long
time
that
what
can
industry
do
to
come
together
to
provide
enough
stock
Gap
measures,
as
well
as
shock,
absorbing
capabilities,
just
like
exactly
what
sipc
and
and
finra
has
done
in
the
past.
So
that
is
all
my
time.
A
Thank
you
so
much
all
right.
What
a
spectacular
leads
in
into
the
next
program
item,
which
is
something
I've
been
looking
forward
to
all
day.
It's
a
fireside
chat
that
takes
a
look
at
how
governments
are
harnessing
the
power
of
disruptive
Technologies.
One
government
in
particular
has
been
doing
this
for
quite
a
bit
of
time
and
so
they're,
a
very
apt
person
to
have
that
conversation
with
it's
my
great
pleasure
to
Welcome
to
the
stage.
First,
our
moderator,
Mark
Dagen,
he's
a
board
member
of
Casper
labs
and
he
is
joined
by
Dr
Daniel.
A
AN
Thank
you
very
much
for
the
introduction
and
Danielle
a
very
warm
welcome,
really
proud
to
have
you
here
for
the
audience
just
a
brief
bio
of
Danny
and
white
I.
Actually,
how
we
met
is
after
his
PhD
in
business
informatics,
he
was
basically
leading
Consulting
sales
and
marketing
team
of
a
European
system
integrated
there
we
met
worked
together
for
eight
years.
Then
he
left
somehow
and
pursued
his
political
career,
which
also
went
quite
well.
AN
AO
Yeah,
first
of
all
mark
thank
you
for
having
me
and
thank
you
for
looking
a
little
bit
closer
to
to
Lichtenstein
and
what
we
did
in
the
last
years,
but
back
to
your
question.
So
what
I
learned
in
web
2
when
we
worked
together
in
the
in
this
business,
is
that
technology
is
only
enabling
disruption
or
is
only
enabling
the
possibilities.
But
you
need
the
entrepreneurs.
You
need
the
people
behind
it
that
think
abroad,
I
think
over
out
of
the
box.
AO
AN
AO
First
of
all,
it's
important
a
government
is
always
a
bad
entrepreneur.
So
it's
not
it's
not
us
to
do
the
business.
It's
us
to
be
there
to
to
give
the
possibilities
and
to
listen
to
the
to
the
companies,
to
the
the
people
that
have
ideas
and
that's
what
we
did
back
some
some
some
use,
and
also
in
the
in
the
area
of
token
and
and
and
and
trustworthy
technology,
how
we
call
it
it's
not
the
blockchain
ACT,
but
it's
it
basically
is
and
and
The
Government
Can
can
listen.
AO
The
Government
Can
can
try
to
be
Innovative
in
the
way
regulation
and
legislation
is,
is
done,
and
but
you
can
you
can't
do
it
yourself
so
you're
not
inventing
new
businesses
and
you're
not
inventing
new
framework
conditions,
but
you
can
you
can
you
can
come
up
with
it
if
you
understand
what
what
what
the
economy
needs?
Okay,.
AN
But
speaking
of
a
framework
conditions
and
I
mean
entrepreneurial
spirit,
I
mean
Lichtenstein.
Wasn't
that
bad
about
it
I
mean
you
were
the
first
first
country
that
actually
set
in
force
DLT
related
law,
yeah
back
in
January
2020.
So
and
back
then
you
were
the
minister
of
economics.
So
who
was
the
economic
outcome.
AO
Well,
if,
in
terms
of
of
tax
revenues,
I
would
say
it's
it's
not
not
that
big,
but
but
you
have
to
compare
it
with
other
Industries.
We
haven't
likenstein,
but
it's
okay,
but
it
was
not
not
the
first
point
to
have
new
companies
that
have
big
tax
you
haven't
used,
but
it
it
was
about
being
or
giving
good
framework
conditions
as
we
do
in
in
the
other
areas.
AO
AN
But
I
mean
making
a
point
by
putting
a
law
in
force,
I
mean
that's
one
thing.
The
other
thing
I
mean
it's
all
about
adoption,
so
where,
at
the
end
of
the
day,
do
you
see
today
the
potential
web
free
Technologies
can
actually
impact
current
governmental
services
or
services
you
offer
to
your
citizens.
AO
Well,
when
we
look
back
and
and
think
about
what
web
2
or
web
one
did
disrupt
first,
if
we
take
the
internet
in
the
90s,
nobody
thought
about
video
libraries
that
go
out
of
the
market
because
of
the
internet.
That's
a
completely
weird
back
in
the
90s,
but
it
happened.
So
when
you
asked
today,
what
will
web
3
change
completely
I'm,
not
the
one
to
give
you
advice
or
give
you
an
Outlook,
because
I
think
it
will
be
in
another
area
than
we
think.
AO
Then
we
maybe
think
today
what
we
do
as
a
government
is
in
in
areas
we
believe
it.
It
can
make
a
difference.
We
try
to
to
to
push
protect.
There
is
one
project
that
is
also
within
the
Swiss
Road
road
offices
when
it
comes
to
the
vehicle
registration
today,
it's
in
in
centralized
databases,
but
that
doesn't
make
any
sense,
because
the
data
should
go
with
the
car,
not
with
the
road
office,
and
there
are
applications
of
of
blockchain
Technologies.
AN
AO
Somewhere,
no,
it's
not
just
somewhere.
We
just
came
out
last
year
with
the
electronic
ID
on
our
app
and
and
we're
one
of
the
first
countries
in
in
Europe
that
that
went
through
with
it
in
Brussels
and
got
it
approved,
but
that's
not
on
blockchain.
Unfortunately
not,
but,
but
we
think
about
all
these
Services.
AO
But
we
don't.
We
don't
have
a
web
3
strategy
or
a
defy
strategy.
That
says
we
have
to
put
all
on
blockchain,
as,
as
all
of
you
know,
the
blockchain
technology
might
not
be
the
most
efficient
technology,
but
it's
a
rarely
trustworthy.
It's
a
very
stable
technology,
so
you
have
to
to
figure
out
where
is
it
rooted
and
and
where
you
might
have
better
choices,
but.
AN
Now,
if
you
think
back
at
your
sales
days,
I
mean
you
saw
now,
both
sides
I
mean
pitching.
Governments
is
one
thing
and
being
on
the
decision.
Side
is
another
thing,
and
you
just
mentioned
it
now:
okay,
there
might
be
value
at
coming
through
a
different
perspective
in
applying
technology.
So
how
can
I
sell
disruptive
technology
to
governments
if
they're
not
asking
for
it.
AO
AO
You
have
to
find
governments
or
Administration
people
who
listen
and
and
who
want
yeah
to
to
to
move
on
and
go
further,
and
if
you
consult
them
in
the
end,
you
might
sell
them
also
technology,
but
it
starts
with
convincing
Consulting
and
and
in
the
end
it's
maybe
a
little
bit
of
selling
perfect.
Thank
you
very
much.
AO
AO
AP
I
guess
you're
far
ahead
of
the
learning
curve
regarding
regulations
and
what
this
technology
feasible
to
do
for
for
the
humanity
compared
to
the
EU.
How
do
you
handle
the
situation
to
bring
everybody
on
the
same
level
in
order
to
come
up
with
meaningful
rules
and
regulations
and
policies
and
support
the
space
yeah.
AO
AO
A
A
Perfect
all
right
and
we're
ready
to
go
we're
heading
into
our
second
to
last
panel,
we're
in
keeping
very
much
with
the
discussion
in
and
around
policy
we're
heading
into
a
panel
discussion
about
standards
and
regulations
that
are
coming
and
those
are
good
for
blockchain.
Innovation
join
me
in
welcoming
our
moderator,
Dr
Ramesh
ramados,
the
co-chair
of
the
IE
Triple
E
blockchain
Technical
Community.
A
He
has
joined
on
stage
by
Yulia
parkomenko,
the
director
of
the
digital
economy
directorate
for
the
Ukrainian
Ministry
of
digital
transformation,
as
well
as
well
as
Kilian
Shelley
partner
at
MLL
law,
Jurg,
Walden
board,
member
of
the
International
Association
for
trusted,
blockchain
applications
or
inatva
and
taina
rice,
C
CEO
of
inclusiva.
Take
it
away.
AQ
Okay
is
my
mic
on
cool.
It's
on.
We
are
two
minutes
early,
but
we'll
get
get
started
so
we'll
do
a
quick
intro.
Maybe
I'll
start
with
an
opening
remark.
You
know
I
think
the
last
couple
days
even
last
night,
there
was
a
panel
about
what
happened
last
year
and
you
know
so.
Basically,
we
witnessed
several
farriers,
including
nitin,
was
talking
about
650
companies
went,
you
know
down
so
I
mean
failures
like
stable
coin,
D5,
C5
projects
and
then
exchanges
VCS,
all
of
them
right.
AQ
So
now,
if
you
really
look
at
all
of
that
it
just
you
can
see
it's
all
because
of
some
Bad
actors.
You
know
centralized
parties
and
you
know
they
were
using
all
these
terms
about
blockchain
decentralization
this
and
that,
but
it
turns
out,
like
you
know
it
was
this
mismanaging
the
funds.
So
today
we
have
speakers
here
from
five
different
countries.
AQ
AQ
Germany
but
you're
going
to
cover
European
Union
Mika
right,
so
we
have
five
countries
represented
here
and
we're
gonna
have
fun
trying
to
learn.
What
are
the
latest
developments?
And
you
know
what
others
can
learn
from,
because
these
are
jurisdictions
are
trying
to
adopt
crypto
right,
crypto
adoption.
So
let
me
start:
let's
do
a
quick
intro,
give
it
like
30
seconds
so
I
serve
as
a
chair
of
the
IEEE
blockchain
initiative.
AQ
AQ
AS
Course,
hello,
everybody.
My
name
is
Julia
I'm,
a
director
of
digital
director
at
in
Ministry
of
details,
transformation
of
Ukraine
and
I
list,
some
projects
like
blockchain,
cbdc,
visual
assets
and
the
other
projects
in
my
Ministry
since
2020..
So
our
Minister,
like
very
young,
it's
like
only
three
years.
AT
D
AT
AI
AR
Okay,
my
name
is
Walden
I'm
from
Germany,
but
representing
Europe
here,
so
I
have
multiple
roads.
Here,
entrepreneur
started
multiple
companies
in
the
circle
economy,
sustainability
area,
digital
assets
till
20
years,
sold
it
now
having
multiple
startups
working,
also
for
the
European
Commission
in
atpa
International
Association
for
trusted
blockchain
architecture.
How
can
we
drive?
How
can
we
bring
in
technology
new
technology
in
supporting
the
digital
transformation?
Would
we
need
for
a
circular
way
in
the
future.
AQ
AR
So
in
that
one
is
a
from
the
European
commission,
it's
trying
to
to
help
technology
help
startups,
help
organization,
driving
technology,
specifically
blockchain
technology,
into
business
models,
so
trying
to
support
with
governmental
trying
to
support
with
Advisory
Board
trying
to
support
and
Link
small
medium-sized
organization
into
multiple
groups,
starting
from
financing,
starting
from
identification,
social
impacts
and
other
groups,
and
there's
a
quite
a
large
organization
and
and
team
together
where
we
are
building
and
supporting
a
little
bit
in
the
direction
what
standards
are
existing.
So
what
do?
What
do
we
don't
know?
AR
AQ
Yeah
Europe,
perhaps
we
can
start
with
you,
okay.
So
what
can
be
done
to
eliminate
the
kind
of
things
we
saw
last
year?
I
know
like
Inez
being
involved
with
the
Mika
correct
and
in
that
bus,
backed
by
the
European
commission
right
initially
and
like
I
mean
what
can
we
do
like
keep
it
short.
We
have
more
questions
right.
That's
not
the
only
question
we
have
I.
AR
Mean
it's
always
it's
so
easy
in
seconds.
You
can
build
and
found
companies.
You
can
build
large
organizations
quite
easy
with
a
lot
of
money.
New
technology
comes,
there's,
always
a
lot
of
money.
We
know
this,
so
the
challenge
is
now.
How
can
we,
on
the
one
side,
use
Lessons,
Learned
and
regulations
and
compliance
rules
and
everything
what
we're
setting
up
now
is
Mika.
As
an
example,
yeah,
that's
coming
more
or
less
Binding
Together
all
the
regulation
into
new
technology.
Typically,
technology
is
much
faster
and
this
is
a
little
bit
The
Challenge.
AR
What
we
see
here,
the
the
speed
is
much
too
high
to
follow.
Governments
and
and
governments
are
not
able
to
follow
this.
So
how
can
we
link
if
new
technologies
are
coming
and
speeding
this
up
and
building
this
into
a
existing
compliance
and
regulation
framework
that
we
don't
fall
into
pitfalls
like
this
yeah,
because
money
goes
fast
ways,
and
this
is
what
we
have
seen
here.
This
is
if
we
don't
build
Frameworks
in
a
much
faster
speed
and
with
better
Technologies,
also
on
the
government
side.
I
think
we
see
this
in
Luxembourg.
AR
AQ
D
D
AQ
AS
AQ
AQ
AT
AQ
AU
I
I
mean
in
Switzerland
we
have
a
rich
history
about
blockchain
regulation,
Switzerland
having
a
technology
neutral
and
principle-based
approach
to
tackle
new
issues
or
new
products
made
us
I
would
say
leading
early
stage
with
Krypton
blockchain
matters,
and
then
we
had
several
legislation
coming
into
place.
Allow
last
one
was
the
DLT
act
which
gave
us
legal
certainty
on
the
regulation
side.
Igt3
nowadays
read
the
media
everybody's
crying.
AU
We
need
more
regulation,
but
I
don't
think
we
need
more
regulation,
I
think
what
we
need
is
harmonized
regulation
which
is
properly
implemented
and
also
enforced
across
all
jurisdictions.
The
more
regulation
will
not
help
to
prevent
criminal
energy.
Certainly
it
will
make
it
difficult,
but
it
will
also
kill
a
lot
of
innovation.
So
I
think
what
we
need
is
a
proper
implementation
and
enforcement
of
the
rules
available
harmonized
in
different
jurisdiction.
I
think
that's!
What's
going
to
help
thank.
AQ
You
I
don't
want
to
say
anything
bad
about
Switzerland
because
they
checked
my
passport
every
time.
I
come
into
the
host.
So
okay.
Now
you
want
to
comment
on
the
last
what
happened
last
year
and
then
we
will
segue
into
what
where
we
go
from
here,
I
mean
this
is
about
what
happened
last
year
right.
Let's
I
can
comment
on
that
from
the
U.S
policy
perspective,
yeah.
AI
I
can
say
something
about
U.S
policy
and
U.S
military
policy,
actually
with
regarded
blockchain,
but
I
can
first
say
something
about
harmonization
of
regulations.
It's
really
important
that
we
continue
to
push
lawmakers
on
having
a
coherent
legal
framework,
because
what
we
see
in
the
United
States
is
absent.
Some
leadership
from
federal
governments
and
and
from
groups
like
this
collectively
coming
up
with
what
makes
sense.
AI
We
have
had
City
councils
in
New,
York
and
San
Francisco,
develop
draft
resolutions
for
regulations
of
things
such
as
blockchain,
which
is
as
insane
as
it
sounds
right.
The
on
on
the
fraud
that
happened
last
year,
I
would
say
the
the
such
as
emerging
in
the
US
would
be
that
there
is
a
distinction
between
a
failure
of
Technology,
a
failure
of
Regulation
and
and
just
straight
out
fraud.
And
so
we
don't
want
to
confuse
this
as
somehow
a
failure
of
Regulation.
This
was
just
thieving
right.
AQ
Okay,
so
I
think
three
of
you
said
good
things
and
two
of
you
said
bad
about
crypto,
it's
fine.
The
next
topic
is
so
look
the
way
in
a
technology.
The
way
it
works
is
any
new
technology
right.
You
have
the
Innovation,
the
new
stuff
technology
and
then
on
top
of
it
you
know
you
have
the
standards
standardized
things
and
then,
on
top
of
it,
policies
are
built
right
based
on
standards
and
then
comes
the
in
terms
of
Licensing
regulation,
conformance
that
somebody
is
really
conforming
to
the
regulation
right.
AQ
AQ
AI
I
would
come
about
it
from
a
technical
perspective
like
as
a
trained
engineer,
I
think
what
we
may
need
to
require
is
the
implementation
of
formal
methods,
I.
Think
much
of
the
problem
we've
gotten
into
it
as
befitting
kind
of
a
nascent
technology
such
as
blockchain,
is
that
people
tried
building
using
the
Technologies
and
approaches
that
they
know,
but
then
what
they
found
is
as
the
system's
got
more
complex.
AI
These
strange
vulnerabilities
would
occur
because
a
lot
of
money
was
at
stake
and
so
that
scale
just
opened
up
the
opportunity
for
people
to
find
these
data
breaches
that
had
previously
just
not
been
available.
You
know
front
running
or
or
timing
of
Trades
the
way
to
address
that
technically
is
formal
methods
it
just
straight
up
is
so
it
we
may
just
have
to
require
the
implementation
of
formal
methods
as
a
foundational
technology.
AC
AI
You
know
on
the
three
layers
of
of
this
sort
of
Technology.
A
lot
of
people
will
consider
the
implementation
of
formal
Methods
at
the
top
layer
kind
of
at
the
I
will
say
at
the
Smart
contract
stage,
the
layer
below
that
at
the
level
consensus
and
no
one's
pursuing,
perhaps
outside
of
hedera.
But
what
we'll
ultimately
need
to
do
for
the
wide
adoption
of
this
Technologies
we'll
need
to
go
a
level
deeper
and
apply
formal
Methods
at
really
the
bit
layer.
Okay,.
AR
AQ
AR
I
think
that
that
the
challenge
is
always
if
you
drive
a
regulation,
a
standards
too
much
into
boundaries,
you
are
not
generic
enough
and
the
technology
changes
too
fast.
So
that's
exactly
the
issue.
You
have
to
have
a
more
broader
generic
way
of
building
standards
than
to
be
build.
It
specifically
for
technology
I
think-
and
this
is
where
the
digitalization
is
not
not
really
in
the
European
commission
and
not
really
in
the
law.
AQ
AQ
AR
AR
Yeah,
what
they're
trying
to
do
now
in
the
European
commission
I
think
there
are
two
major,
the
Mika
and
the
dic-8
yeah
regulation,
yeah
on
the
one
side
trying
to
handle
and
manage
a
framework
that
we
can
control
asset
driven
approaches.
Yeah-
and
this
is
quite
far
I
would
say
developed.
Are
we
expecting
some
outcomes
this
year?
So
I
think
this
is
definitely
a
way
how
you
can
build
asset
driven,
Management
Systems,
hopefully
far
enough,
that
new
changes
are
true.
AR
On
the
other
side,
you
have
always
this
text
driven
approach
and
the
text
driven
is
not
in
Mika.
The
text
driven
is
in
the
dse8
approach,
where
they're
trying
to
handle
tax
border
tax
approaches
and
and
Regulation
and
stuff
like
this
I
think
that's
definitely
a
way
how
it
should
go
forward,
that
we
are
helping
balance
out
difference
between
governments
and
they
should
be
normalized.
There
should
be
standardized
it's
impossible
in
a
global
world
that
every
country
every
region
has
its
own
regulations.
AQ
AS
AS
Absolutely
yes!
In
March,
during
the
second
month
of
the
full-scale
war,
our
president
signed
an
adopt
our
lower
initial
assets.
But
since
we
granted
statues
to
like
a
part
for
candidate
to
the
European
union
membership,
we
should
adapt
our
Allure
to
European
standards
so
working
on
Ministry
amendments
to
our
visual
war
and
to
adapt
it
also
to
Mika
and
with
National
Bank
of
Ukraine
and
National
Commission
of
Securities
and
stock
market.
We're
working
to
Ministry
management
to
tax
and
civil
codes.
AS
AT
AT
AQ
S
AI
The
the
issue
about
these
regulations-
it's
a
it's
a
serious
point-
is
in
the
U.S,
the
the
as
a
standard
for
adoption
of
this
technology.
You
ultimately
want
to
be
able
to
bet
your
life
on
it,
because
the
the
stakes
quickly
become
large
enough
that
the
the
people
will
be
motivated
to
break
it,
that
in
the
U.S
is
the
military,
and
so
the
military's
guidelines
for
adoption
of
this
Technologies,
regardless
of
the
the
regulation,
is
having
formal
Methods
at
every
layer
of
these
texts.
AI
AU
Unfortunately,
or
for
the
good
case,
this
is
not
the
situation.
Basically,
the
framework
is
that
we
have
asset
this
technology
neutral
approach
that
no
matter
what
the
underlying
Technologies
we
apply,
the
existing
legal
framework
to
it,
and
that
we
have
this
principle-based
approach
so
that
we
can
also
tackle
new
matters,
and
we
had
in
2021
the
new
DLT
act,
which
basically
helped
to
implement
new
licensing
schemes
and
also
lecture-based
Securities,
and
also
to
determine
what
happens
with
fully
segregate
the
crypto
assets.
AU
We've
pulled
crypto
assets
in
case
of
a
bankruptcy
scenario,
which
was
very
helpful
over
the
last
few
months.
That
was
a
very
helpful
part
of
the
regular
legislation.
One
thing
which
we
are
currently
discussing,
or
which
we
are
realizing,
is
that
the
existing
legal
framework
works
very
well
for
centralized
setups.
AC
AU
AQ
AQ
D
AQ
Okay,
I
can
say
that
now,
okay,
Estonia,
you
know
they.
Actually,
you
know
issue
licenses
for
like
2400
companies
or
entities
and
they
revoke
2000
like
2020
or
21..
It's
like
they
went
five
steps
forward
and
then
like
three
steps
back.
Something
like
that,
so
what's
happening
from
I,
believe
it's
because
of
some
of
the
violations
of
AML
and
all
those
things
right.
AQ
So
what
about
licensing
are
any
of
your
jurisdictions?
Looking
at
licensing
like
you
know,
or
is
it
you
know
it's
way
out?
There
is
a
topic
for
next
year.
Maybe
I
don't
know
like
tell
us.
Are
you
guys,
looking
at
licensing,
maybe
a
York
anything
anything
that
came
up
like
Mika
is
going
to
be
effective.
Zone.
You
know
a
crypto
exchange
wants
to
set
up
in
Brussels.
Let's
keep
it
Belgium
simple
right.
Yes,.
AR
AQ
AU
AU
There
is
a
need
to
be
covered
by
a
license
by
a
regulator
to
find
more
and
in
the
past
this
was
the
gold
standard
to
have
the
banking
license,
but
our
regulator
realized
that
this
standard
is
actually
quite
hard
to
achieve
and
introduce
the
new
lies
in
so-called
the
fintech
license,
which
is
one
level
below
the
banking
license
in
order
to
improve
or
motivate
new
businesses
with
a
lower
standard
of
the
regulation.
So
that's
one
thing
which
is
new
and
the
biggest
thing
which
is
in
the
pipeline.
AU
It's
already
existed,
as
of
2021
is
the
DLT
trading
license,
which
I'll
make
it
possible
that
we
can
trade
security
tokens.
So
that's,
basically
the
Big
Goal
as
of
today
such
a
license
has
not
yet
been
granted,
but
that's
basically
the
goal
that
we
push
forward.
The
regulatory
framework
is
in
place.
We
are
working
together
on
several
projects,
together
with
our
regulator
until
the
first
license
is
granted
so
that
we
can
basically
kick
off
with
trading
security
tokens
in
Switzerland.
That's.
AU
AI
AI
AQ
AQ
AQ
AQ
AQ
What's
missing
is
Dubai,
I
believe
I
try
to
get
Dubai,
don't
work,
and
they
even
this
was
hard.
They
told
me
they
will
have
only
five
chairs.
You
know
I
have
to
fight
with
them
to
get
one
more
chair
so
but
yeah
Dubai
would
be
another
thing
to
have.
They're
also
really
pushing
things
forward
and
I
hope.
This
restores
some
faith
in
the
folks
in
the
room
at
least
yeah.
AQ
AS
AT
AT
AI
I
think
there
are
collaborations
possible
not
only
among
Regulators,
which
is
absolutely
true
in
making
those
regulations
more
specific.
Therefore,
more
Universal,
but
I
also
think
there's
technical
collaborations
that
are
possible
in
order
to
strengthen
the
foundations
of
many
of
these
Technologies.
So
we,
for
example,
had
worked
with
some
companies
and
privacy
protecting
queries
for
databases
and
those
privacy
predicting
queries.
AI
It
could
have
solved
or
gone
a
long
way
towards
solving
the
Prime
Minister
liechtenstein's
problems
about
driver's
license
and
license
plates
I
mean
that
doesn't
necessarily
rarely
require
one
particular
pure
technology
solution
and
that's
an
example
of
how
an
interaction
of
blockchain
and
other
Technologies
could
be
solving
these
sort
of
problems,
and
that
is
a
path
towards
possibly
building
trust
in
blockchain
for
wider
adoption.
Killian.
AU
AU
Sometimes
this
can
be
frustrating,
especially
as
a
lawyer,
because
you
cannot
push
the
project
forward
quickly,
but
on
the
other
hand,
it
prevents
that
we
have
big
blow-ups
in
Switzerland.
So
it's
like
steady
progress
and
I
think
that's
the
message.
What
we
should
see
more
in
the
future,
that
we
go
up
step
by
step
over
time.
AQ
AR
AQ
AR
AR
AQ
AR
AV
AU
AU
If
you
decided
to
start
in
Switzerland
and
would
like
to
expand
the
business
into
the
European
Union,
we
often
see
a
way
through
the
fmr
in
Liechtenstein
that
you
can
expand
to
the
European
market.
That's
something
which
we
see
very
often.
Sometimes
we
also
go
the
way
through
buffing,
although
Buffet
is
very
strict
and
reluctant,
but
the
key
question
which
I
would
ask
is
why
have
we
incorporated
in
Switzerland?
First,
potentially,
it
could
make
sense
to
reconsider,
starting
in
Switzerland
or
relocating
outside
of
Switzerland,
depending
on
the
business
case.
P
AT
Yeah
selling
in
Brazil
the
project
is
said
to
be
launched
next
year,
but
they
will
allow
and
license
other
big
Banks
to
issue
the
currency,
the
stable
coin
against
deposits.
So
it's
still
closed
markets.
So
just
the
big
banks
will
have
access
to
it.
So
I
think
should
be
brothers
to
have
like
broader
adoption
as
well,
but
they
want
the
control
as
a
government.
AQ
AK
AT
AQ
A
Give
them
a
very
warm
thank
you
for
their
time
as
they
head
on
over.
Please
make
sure
that
you
keep
the
way
clear,
so
they
can
get
their
mics
taken
off
and
the
next
set
can
get
can
be
put
on
we're
heading
into
a
bit
of
a
special
part
of
our
programming.
Now
again,
we
mentioned
that
the
topic
for
this
particular
block
is
policy.
Politics,
regulation
Etc
we're
sticking
with
that
theme.
However,
the
next
component
will
be
taking
a
bit
of
a
turn,
will
have
a
very
specific
sorry.
Excuse
me.
A
A
A
The
next
part
of
our
program
will
be
taking
a
closer
look
at
nuclear.
Now
I'm
excited
to
welcome
the
following
three
individuals
onto
our
stage.
This
particular
part
of
the
program
will
be
moderated
by
Jameel
underlini
he's
the
editor-in-chief
for
Europe
at
Politico.
He
is
joined
on
stage
by
Oliver
Stone
Academy,
award-winning,
film,
director
and
Dr
Joshua
Goldstein,
professor
emeritus
of
international
relations
at
American
University.
Let's
make
sure
for
those
that
are
coming
in
and
taking
their
seats,
you
do
so
quietly
if
you
do
have
empty
seats.
A
Next
to
you
feel
free
to
move
on
over
in
order
to
make
the
access
a
bit
easier
for
them,
we'll
be
getting
our
speakers
quickly.
Miked
up
here
on
stage
as
we
move
into
again
the
final
part
of
our
programming
of
what
has
been
a
very
interesting
day,
to
say
the
least:
lots
of
reflection,
lots
of
discussions
about
the
last
6
to
12
months,
lots
of
projections
for
what
is
to
come
in
the
upcoming
year.
I
think
the
overall
tone
has
been
very
hopeful.
A
We
certainly
look
forward
to
continuing
the
discussions
in
the
next
two
days.
Could
I
kindly
ask
the
audience
to
make
sure
that
you
do
pay
attention
and
that
you're
ready
to
go
once
we
get
the
final
mics
on
I?
Think
Jamil
is
ready
to
go
and
we'll
be
kicking
things
off
in
just
a
second
again
I
see
some
additional
people
are
coming
in
in
the
back.
Let's
make
sure
that
we
provide
them
with
ample
opportunity
to
come
and
take
a
seat,
so
they
don't
have
to
clog
up
the
staircase.
A
D
AA
Good
evening,
thank
you
God
that
was
exciting.
Wasn't
it
we'll
leave
the
questions
till
the
end,
I
think
I
know
what
what
are
the
questions
are
going
to
be,
at
least
so.
My
name
is
Jameel
andolini
I'm,
the
editor-in-chief
of
Politico
Europe,
and
it's
a
great
pleasure
for
me
this
evening
to
have
with
me
Oliver
Stone,
Fame,
director
I,
grew
up
on
your
movies.
My
father
grew
up
on
your
movies.
It's
it's
an
amazing.
It's
amazing
to
meet
you.
AA
My
Oliver
and
Joshua
very
kindly
just
joined
us
at
our
Politico
event
across
the
road
and
I.
Had
the
great
pleasure
of
introducing
Oliver
Stone
to
the
head
of
MI6,
who
was
also
at
our
party
and
I.
Think
that's
going
to
be
the
thing
I
dine
out
on
for
the
next
decade
at
least
and
I'll.
Tell
you
what
the
reaction
was,
which
was
amazing
c,
as
we
call
them
in
MI6.
AA
D
AA
I
sex
you
know
like
so
it
was
wonderful.
It
was
a
great.
It
was
a
great
moment,
a
Davos,
a
Davos
moment
so
and
Joshua
Goldstein,
it's
wonderful
to
meet
you
too
new
friend
we
you've
you've
made
this
movie
together.
Focusing
on
nuclear
energy.
I
haven't
watched
it
yet
I
missed
the
screening.
I
was
I
was
too
busy
I'm
watching
it
tomorrow,
I've
been
promised,
I've
been
promised.
I've
I
promise
and
I've
been
promised
that
I'm
gonna
get
to
see
it.
So
for
my.
AX
Okay,
can
I
start
out
by
saying
not
any
disrespect
to
the
Ukrainian
journalist,
but
the
Davos
is
a
weak
and
a
lot
of
people
and
nuclear
Powers
barely
pretty
much
not
on
the
agenda
and
we're
trying
to
talk
about
this
very
important
topic:
climate
change,
nuclear
power.
We've
got
a
film
that
we're
talking
about,
and
so
we're
not
going
to
talk
about
Putin
this
week
and
next
week
you
can
harass
Oliver
again
about
that.
But
that's
we
need
the
time
for
Nuclear.
AX
AW
That's
that's
pretty
good.
Pretty
short,
it's
pretty
good!
There's
a
lot
of
misunderstanding
here
and
it's
obviously
the
details.
We
could
go
into
them,
but
I
think
some
of
you
should
ask
whatever
you
want
to
hear
about.
I
really
feel
it's
important
to
the
life
of
the
planet.
It's
the
continuation
not
just
to
have
a
future,
but
to
have
a
future
you
can
look
forward
to.
This
is
very
important
to
all
those
of
us
who
are
older
because
those
we
have
children,
we
have
grandchildren.
AW
What
are
they
going
to
do
and
we
have
seen
the
power
of
the
droughts,
the
hurricanes,
the
so-called
rivers
of
out
of
the
ocean.
The
ocean
is
a
key
factor
here
and
you
at
Davos.
You
talk
about
the
ocean
and
you
talk
about
all
these
things,
but
I
wish
you'd
focus
on
how
to
fix
and
that's
what
this
book
does.
It
is
a
reasonable
solution,
kind
of
economical
one
in
the
end,
that's
what's
so
beautiful
about
the
book.
AW
It's
not
a
lot
of
it's
easy
to
read
it's
practical
practical
is
the
word
and
I
have
no
expert,
so
I
could
be
this.
Guy
could
be
a
Charlton
and
I
could
be
dead
wrong,
but
I
believe
him
I
trust.
What
he's
saying
I
urge
you
to.
Please
see
the
movie
just
take
an
hour
40
of
your
time,
or
else
read
the
book,
but
it
is
so
important
much
more
important
than
any
other
subject
right
now
to
me
it's
about
how
can
life
continue
and
how
can
it
be
a
good
life,
not
a
crummy
life.
AX
And
if
I
could
just
give
Oliver
a
little
credit
here,
he
is
not
just
taking
my
word
on
this.
He
went
around
the
world,
he
visited
countries
talked
to
the
top
people
in
the
industry
when
inside
nuclear
plants
and
so
forth-
and
this
was
three
years
of
effort
to
my
job
mostly
was
making
sure
everything
in
it
was
correct
and
we've
now
vetted
it
with
dozens
of
scientists
and
Engineers
industry
people.
We
know
it's
right,
we
know
the
story
is
right,
but
people
just
block
it
out
because
of
the
fear.
AX
AA
I,
don't
I
want
to
dig
a
little
bit
deeper
when
you
say
the
fear,
you
mean
people's
fear
of
nuclear
energy.
It's
a
very
big
topic,
obviously,
here
in
Europe,
particularly
since
the
tsunami
in
Japan,
you've
seen
nuclear
power
being
shut
down
across
the
continent
in
Germany.
The
last
couple
of
reactors
was
supposed
to
be
shot
down
by
the
end
of
last
year.
Now
they've
had
a
stay
of
execution
for
for
a
couple
of
months
and
there's
talk
about
maybe
letting
them
last
a
bit
longer.
Where
do
you?
AX
Originally,
it
comes
from
the
early
Cold
War,
especially
Our
Generation,
who
remember
vividly
hiding
under
our
desks
because
at
any
more
in
school,
because
at
any
moment
there
could
be
an
alarm
and
it
could
be
a
nuclear
war
and
our
entire
world.
Everything
we
knew
would
be
gone.
It's
a
huge
trauma,
a
generational
trauma
and
then
building
on
that
early
on
in
the
history
of
the
nuclear
industry.
AX
The
fear
originally
comes
from
the
weapons,
then
it's
applied
to
nuclear
power
and
then
these
groups,
like
Greenpeace
and
Sierra
Club
I'm
a
lifetime
member
of
Sierra
Club,
and
we
love
these
environmental
groups
except
on
this
one
issue.
But
they've
made
it
like
top
issue
and
spent
billions
of
dollars
over
50
years
to
make
us
all
afraid
of
nuclear
power
and
a
lot
of
it
just
isn't
true.
So
that's
where
you
watch
the
movie
I.
AX
Enrichment
yeah,
so
that
it
it's
like
saying
that
running
your
car
is
a
slow-motion
Napalm
bomb
or
something
you
know,
I
mean
yeah.
They
both
burn
stuff
right.
Nuclear
fission
is
in
common
and
it
was
a
new
thing
in
the
middle
of
last
century
and
people
didn't
understand
it
very
well
and
maybe
reasonably
we're
afraid
what
well,
what
will
it
be
like
now,
we've
had
70
years
of
experience.
AX
We
know
the
data
show
it's
hundreds
of
times
safer
than
fossil
fuels
and
because
of
the
enrichment
of
the
uranium,
you
know
it's
in
the
fissionable
part
of
the
uranium
is
enriched
way
up.
That's
what
Iran
is
trying
to
do
now
to
get
to
a
point
where
you
can
build
a
bomb
out
of
it,
but
nuclear
reactors
don't
have
that
at
all.
They
have
low
enriched
uranium
that
cannot
be
used
to
make
a
bomb
out
of
so,
but
the
fear
is
misplaced
in
people's
minds
and.
AX
The
yeah
nobody
likes
when
I
say
this,
but
if
we'd
had
more
accidents
like
flying
in
Planes,
they
crash
every
once
in
a
while
right
people
were
very
afraid
of
them
and
then
they
discovered
they're
very
convenient
and
they
fly,
but
ever
but
we're
still
kind
of
scared
of
them
and
they
crash
every
so
often.
But
you
know
that
the
statistics
are
they're,
a
lot
safer
than
driving,
and
so
you
fly
but
nuclear
power,
because
it's
so
safe.
We've
only
had
one
fatal
nuclear
accident
in
the
entire
70
years.
That
was
Chernobyl.
AX
AX
AW
Eight
eighteen
thousand
people
died
in
Fukushima
from
a
tsunami,
absolutely
and
other
people
died
because
it
was
mismanaged
evacuation,
zero
deaths
from
any
kind
of
radiation
at
Fukushima.
Just
keep
that
in
mind.
It's
part
of
the
misunderstanding,
miseducation
that
goes
on
the
first
check
ever
written
to
friends
of
the
earth,
which
was
then
specifically
anti-nuclear
organization.
It
was
written
by
James,
o
Anderson
of
the
Arco
oil
cup,
so
we
don't
know
how
much
the
we
we
know.
The
oil
interests
have
been
very
happy
with
Renewables,
because
Renewables
don't
work
all
the
time.
AW
AX
AA
AX
The
waist
is
really
a
tiny
problem
and
the
and
also
the
the
mining
is
less.
The
transportation
is
less
and
the
power
plant
I
said:
I'm
a
Sierra
Club
member.
The
power
plant
takes
up
such
a
tiny
footprint
that
you
can
have
nature
undisturbed
where
I
live
in
Massachusetts
now
they're
cutting
down
forests
for
solar
arrays,
and
it's
crazy.
You
know,
for
we
need
the
force,
but
we're
not
against
solar
we're,
not
against
wind.
We
need
all
of
this
for
climate
change,
but
the
idea
that
we're
going
to
take
hydropower
is
fine.
AX
That's
our
leading,
carbon-free
source
of
energy
and
then
the
number
two
source
is
nuclear
worldwide,
but
we
don't
talk
about
it
and
then
wind
is
a
third,
a
ways
below
that
and
solar
is
way
below
that.
So
we're
talking
all
about
solar
power
and
it's
not
a
very
big
factor,
but
we're
like
ignoring
nuclear,
which
is
one
of
the
big
ones.
Also
because
it's
a
concentrated
it
can
scale
really
quickly,
and
this
is
what
France
did
France
in
the
1970s
80s
switched
over
their
grid
from
fossil
fuel
to
nuclear
80
nuclear
in
15
years.
D
AA
AX
AW
AW
Because
technology
improves
all
the
time
so
there,
the
amount
of
electricity
we're
going
to
need
by
2050
is
the
estimated
two
to
four
times
as
much
and
where
are
they
going
to
get
it
they're
going
to
get
it
from
coal
because
that's
the
cheapest
way
unless
they
have
an
alternative,
which
is
nuclear
energy,
which
can
be
as
cheap
scalable?
You
want
to
discuss
costs
because
cost
is
a
big
issue
here.
Yeah
use
these
countries.
AX
Used
to
be
cheap
until
we
layered
over
all
the
regulation,
we
have
a
plant
in
the
United
States
in
Georgia
Westinghouse
that
they've
been
working
on
for
more
than
a
decade.
It's
insanely
expensive.
It's
way
behind
schedule
and
China
just
built
four
of
those
exact
same
plant
in
far
less
time
and
at
one
quarter
the
cost.
So
why
does
it
cost
us
four
times
as
much
to
build
this
in
Georgia
as
in
China?
AX
And
we
got
a
clue
just
this
week
because
they're
about
to
open
the
plant
and
they
were
on
all
these
tests
and
they
find
a
pipe-
is
vibrating
a
little
bit.
They're
like
okay,
we
need
to
brace
the
pipe
that's
less
than
a
day
of
work
for
a
few
people,
but
that's
a
license
change
and
it's
going
to
take
a
month
of
delay
to
redo
the
license
to
say:
oh
yeah,
this
pipe
has
a
brace
on
and
it's
30
million
dollars
to
do
that.
AX
AW
Environmentalists
have
been
very
effective
since
the
1970s
in
in
in
creating
this
fear
that
creates
regulations.
It's
the
only
way
that
we
can
do
business
in
the
United
States,
which
unfortunately
puts
us
way
back.
China
and
Russia
are
being
because
they're,
not
the
countries
like
us
subject
to
that
kind
of
pressure.
They
are
building
much
faster
and
much
cheaper
nuclear
facilities.
AX
Briefly
near
the
end,
yeah
I
mean
we
think
Fusion's
great
geothermal,
Advanced,
geothermal
wind,
solar
everything,
right
tide
power.
Whatever
work,
we
should
be
trying
to
do
all
these
things,
but
none
of
them
are
proven
and
infusions
case.
It's
probably
oh,
you
know,
maybe
we'll
have
a
big
breakthrough
and
get
an
actual
power
plant
out
of
it
sooner,
but
it
looks
like
decades
away
before
we
can
do
that
and.
AW
AX
AX
You
can
look
it
up
online
and
it
shows
you
in
real
time
how
polluting
the
electricity
is
in
all
the
countries
in
the
world,
and
you
know,
grams
of
carbon
per
kilowatt
hour
and
the
countries
that
are
consistently
at
the
low
end
there,
the
really
low,
polluting
countries
like
France
and
Sweden,
all
of
them
all
of
them
are
either
nuclear
or
hydroelectric.
But
hydroelectric
is
limited.
AX
AA
Mentioned
Germany
because
it's
something
I've
I've
been
in
Brussels
now
a
little
every
year
and
it's
been
if
I
talk
to
my
German
colleagues,
almost
all
of
them
they're
just
like
well
nuclear,
it's
just
it's
just
terrible
like
how
could
you
even
discuss
what
what
is
special
about
Germany?
Would
you
say
like?
Why
is
it
that
as
a
country
they're
so
against.
AX
The
European
countries
that
are
most
against
nuclear
power,
it's
because
of
the
parliamentary
system
and
the
green
party,
so
you
form
up
a
government
and
you
need
the
green
party
votes
to
make
a
majority
in
Parliament
and
the
green
party
says
we'll
we'll
vote
with
you
on
all
the
foreign
policy.
All
the
domestic
policy,
but
the
only
thing
is:
you've
got
to
shut
off
nuclear
power,
it's
their
top
priority,
and
so
this
happened
in
Sweden.
Although
now
they've
got
a
new
government,
that's
going
to
build
more
nuclear,
it
doesn't
include.
AX
The
green
party
happened
in
Germany.
It
happened
in
Belgium,
it's
a
little
different
politics
in
the
United
States,
but
that's
the
thing
and
then
Germany
also
it
was
at
the
center
of
the
Cold
War.
So
you
talk
about
these
existential
fears
that
this
is
all
built
on.
You
know
we're
going
to
be
blown
up
in
a
nuclear
war.
Well,
Germany
they've
got
War
trauma
in
that
way.
Right.
AA
So
the
war
in
Ukraine
has
definitely
affected
the
debate
about
around
energy.
How
would
is
that,
coming
to
your
film,
do
you
mention
about
the
was
it
done
before
it's
done
before
done
before
the
film,
so
I'm
interested
to
hear
from
you
how
you
think,
that's
affecting
the
debate
and
whether
you
think
that's
something.
That's
no.
AX
AX
This
is
what
happened
exactly
to
France
in
the
1970s
when
the
1973
oil
crisis
France,
was
dependent
on
that
middle
east
oil
to
run
their
economy,
and
so
the
realization
that
some
foreign
power,
whoever
it
is,
can
cut
off
your
supply
of
energy
and
bring
your
economy
to
its
knees,
is
very
unsettling
and
should
be,
and
so
France
said,
with
nuclear
power,
we
can
create
our
own
energy.
You
know
we
we
can
have.
AX
What
he's
telling
me
is
to
talk
about
the
separation
of
power
plant
in
Ukraine,
which
has
gotten
a
lot
of
attention,
and
you
know
the
safest
place
to
be.
If
I
were
in
a
war
zone,
a
combat
zone
I
would
want
to
be
inside
a
nuclear
power
plant
and
preferably
inside
the
containment
building.
You
can
fly
an
airplane
into
it
and
the
airplane
will
disintegrate
and
the
building
will
be
unscathed
at
this
thick
reinforced
concrete.
So
in
zapparish's
case
you
can
make
a
scenario
where
the
power
gets
cut
off.
AX
AX
So,
but
if
you
make
that
whole
scenario
you
end
up
with
low
level
radiation
could
spread,
you
can
measure
very
small
amounts
of
radiation,
so
it's
easy
to
be
afraid
of
it,
but
and
we
can
talk
more
about
the
low
level
radiation
do
that
quickly,
but
yeah
it's
the
whole.
No,
it's
a
director
he's
a
director
and
he's
directing
doing
his
job.
Okay,
you
use
it
yeah
yeah
action.
AX
The
whole
regulation
of
nuclear
power
is
based
on
a
theory
called
linear.
No
threshold
and
what
it
says
is
that
our
DNA,
when
it's
hit
by
radiation,
it's
damaged
permanently
irreparably
and
cumulatively.
So
as
you
go
through
life
and
get
more
of
this
damage,
it
will
accumulate
and
therefore
you
have
to
keep
all
Every
Little
Bit
of
radiation
from
getting
to
People.
By
the
way
we
have
double
the
background
radiation
here
in
Davos,
because
we're
up
at
altitude,
nobody
seems
to
be
worried
about
it.
You
should
all
be
wearing.
AX
AX
Now,
once
that
gets
out,
which
is
a
untruth,
it
stays
out,
it's
never
been
put
back
in
the
bottle
and
that's
one
of
the
great
sad
tragedies
of
this
it
was.
We
come
at
it
from
the
point
of
view
that
nuclear
discovered
by
the
curries
and
it's
an
amazing,
amazing
and
gift
from
nature,
and
it's
been
perverted
into
a
disease
that
contamination
disease,
which
it
is
not
that's
so
scary
that
we've
lost
the
ability
to
use
it.
So
Prometheus
gave
us
the
gift
we
Shrugged
and
now
we
have
to
take
the
gift
back.
AX
We
have
to
go
back
to
Prometheus
and
say
look
time
to
get
serious
here
if
we
want
to
save
ourselves.
This
is
really
a
basic
case
of
a
myth,
not
being
interacted
a
lie,
being
told
about
something
that
really
was
beneficial
to
Mankind
and
the
film
goes
through
the
whole
history
very
strongly
about
this,
because
I,
don't
not
I'm,
not
an
expert,
but
I
feel
that
we
were
robbed.
We
were
robbed
and
lies,
we're
told
because
these
people
really
would
the
environmentalists
less
than
they
did
a
lot
of
good.
AX
That
Dr
Moore,
who
one
of
the
founders
of
Greenpeace,
is
in
our
film
and
he
says
very
clearly.
They
did
a
lot
of
good,
save
the
whales,
nuclear
bombs,
etc,
etc.
But
they
were
wrong
about
one
thing:
nuclear
power.
The
thing
to
think
about
is,
and
we
go
through
the
whole
history
of
it.
But
if
we
had
stayed
on
the
track
that
we
were
on
in
the
1950s
and
60s
instead
of
you
know
in
19
early
70s
once
when
the
Sierra
Club
flipped
and
this
all
went
down
a
different
path.
AX
If
we'd
stayed
on
track
and
built
out
nuclear,
the
way
it
was
planned,
we
would
literally
not
have
the
climate
crisis
that
we
have
today.
We
would
have
decarbonized
economies
and
it's
just
shocking
to
think
that
this
whole
thing
could
have
been
on
a
different
path
and
it's
tragic
I've
got
a
granddaughter.
AX
It's
going
to
shape
her
entire
life
that
the
number
one
thing
shaping
the
trajectory
of
her
life
is
what
we
do
now
about
climate
change,
and
yet
people
won't
talk,
won't
want
us
to
solve
it
without
using
one
of
our
most
important
tools,
and
why
are
we
here
at
Davos?
Apparently
you
never
talk
about
it.
I'm
not
doubles.
AX
AX
Well,
the
there's
a
whole
series
of
new
designs
and
the
energy
Department
in
the
United
States
is
supporting
them,
they're
being
developed
at
the
Idaho
National
Lab
and
Oliver
went
to
the
lab
and
interviewed
the
people.
It's
all
in
the
film.
It's
a
pretty
interesting
story,
the
things
that
nuclear
can
do,
how
to
use
the
heat
for
district
Heating
and
for
industry.
AX
You
know
cement
combination
with
hydrogen
yeah,
making
hydrogen
concrete
steel
all
those
applications
which
we
need
to
do
it's
not
just
about
electricity,
and
so
we're
we're
big
fans
of
that
we
don't
know
exactly
which
ones
are
going
to
work
or
not.
Terra
power
is
on
a
pretty
good
track
with
their
reactor,
but
those
are
those
are
important.
Interestingly,
you
have
Westinghouse
at
the
huge
company
doing
enormous,
very
good
work
and
on
a
new
modular
reactor,
but
you
have
50
startups
smaller
companies,
young
people
getting
into
this.
That
is
good
news.
AX
AX
People
don't
think
about
the
damage
it
does
to
you're
affecting
the
rivers
and
what
happens
behind
the
hydro
plant.
You
know
and
I
wanted
your
opinion
on
that
and
how
you
see
it.
I
completely
agree
with
you.
The
the
Mekong
River
Watershed
in
the
last
decade
is
just
being
decimated,
the
the
bio,
the
whole
Ecology
of
that
region.
AX
So
as
an
environmentalist
as
a
Sierra,
Club
member,
you
know
I,
don't
like
hydro
and
the
Sierra
Club.
This
is
in
the
film
started
out
with
the
motto
atoms,
not
dams.
You
know
we
can
use
nuclear
power,
they
believe
nuclear
would.
Let
us
have
a
lighter
footprint
on
the
earth
and
not
have
to
to
decimate
it
with
dams,
or
you
know
other
ways
of
doing
it
too,
but
from
a
climate.
On
that
an
economic
point
of
view,
it's
really
good.
It's
effective,
you
know
once
you
build
it
and
destroy
everything.
AX
So
can
you
please
explain
a
bit
more
by
Jamil
can
go
to
the
pharmacy
and
ask
for
tablets
in
case
something
goes
bust.
This
is
the
first
part
of
my
question
and
the
second
one.
Can
you
advise
me
what
I
should
tell
my
kids
why
they
should
vote
for
nuclear
and
not
for
wind
energy,
because
wind
energy
doesn't
need
any
pills,
wind
energy,
that's
fine!
AX
When
the
wind
is
blowing,
it's
it's
really
cheap
and
it's
really
effective,
but
when
it
stops
blowing,
that's
when
you
they're
firing
up
natural
gas
plants,
so
you
can
tell
your
kids
if
they
go.
It's
it's
not
wind!
It's
wind,
plus
natural
gas.
It's
solar,
plus
natural
gas.
This
is
why
the
gas
companies,
the
Big,
Oil
and
Gas
always
say
they
are
the
perfect
partner
for
Renewables.
Literally
forget
the
first
part
of
my
question.
Can
you
please
explain
why
those
tablets,
yes,
are
required
in
a
case?
AX
Yes,
there's
a
radioactive
element,
isotope
of
iodine
that
can
that
can
come
about
in
a
nuclear
reaction
and,
for
instance,
in
chernoable,
where
there
wasn't
a
containment
and
radiation
spread
around
people
can
breathe
the
iodine
and
or
get
it
in
the
milk
because
it
fell
on
the
ground
and
so
forth,
and
the
the
tablets
will
displace
that
you
know
you
you
take
that
iodine
and
then
you
will
be.
You
won't
have
to
worry
about
that.
AX
If
very
short-term
problems
for
a
few
weeks
in
Chernobyl
the
problem
was,
the
government
was
trying
to
keep
it
all
secret.
They
had
the
iodine
tablets
in
case
of
a
nuclear
war.
You
know
you've
got
to
protect
everybody's
thyroid
from
radioactive
iodine,
but
they
wouldn't
distribute
them
because
they
were
trying
to
cover
it
all
up
question
here
and
then
last
one
is
right
there
yeah.
So
thank
you.
Thank
you
for
your
comments
on
Aviation
and
come
from
Aviation.
Okay
in
my
previous
life,
I
was
a
bad
person.
AX
I
was
an
investment
banker,
so
I've
converted
to
the
righteous
path
and
actually
worked
on
Project
financing.
The
Berlin
nuclear
power
plant
back
in
Bulgaria
and
I
think
some
of
the
biggest
challenges
for
this,
because
I
I
agree
that
we
need
to
reopen
the
discussion
on
nuclear
because
I
don't
think
with
all
the
Technologies
we
have
to
get
today.
Renewables-
and
you
know
the
conventional
natural
gas
we
may
have
enough
time
to
you
know,
resolve
our
climate
change.
AX
Yes,
you,
however,
the
number
of
issues
that
need
to
be
resolved-
one
is,
you
know,
the
hidden
costs
in
terms
of
decommissioning.
You
know
we're
sort
of
throwing
the
ball
50
years
down
the
line
to
see
how
you
know
what
the
cost
will
be
to
the
commission.
So
actually
nuclear
is
very
expensive,
so
we
sort
of
moving
the
cost
further
down
in
in
the
years
now.
The
other
thing
we
have
is
because
Europe
and
the
US
in
particular
have
sort
of
shied
away
of
nuclear.
AX
We
don't
have
the
technology,
for
instance,
that
the
Russians
have
or
the
Chinese
so
I
don't
know
it's
been
quite
some
time,
but
I
remember
we
used
to
say
I'm
with
the
third
generation
of
reactors,
whereas
the
Russians
are
the
fifth
generation
right
yeah-
and
this
is
a
big
issue,
and
the
final
point
I
will
put
out
is
that
within
Europe
at
least
I
don't
know
about
the
us,
we
don't
actually
have
the
scientists
who
can
actually
develop
the
power
plants
they
actually
really
trying
to.
You
know
sustain
the
ones
we
have
right.
AX
So
all
in
all
my
point
is
we
need
to
catch
up.
We
need
to
open
the
discussion,
it's
very
good
Oliver
and
that
you
that
you're
having
this
discussion
and
people
can
understand,
what's
happening
and
see.
You
know
when
we
trade
it
off,
you
know,
is
it
danger
enough
compared
to
climate
change
and
I
think
the
argument
is
in
terms
of
having
nuclear.
There
was
one
final
question,
please
one
final
question:
no.
AX
You
go
through
a
painful
divorce
each
time.
Okay,
right
these,
these,
like
issues
with
you
know
we
have
to
solve
this
issue
in
that
issue,
and
it's
true.
There
are
issues,
especially
you
know,
gearing
up
a
new
generation
of
nuclear
Engineers.
We
need
to
train
people,
we
need
to
develop
Supply
chains,
there's
a
lot
of
that
needs
to
happen.
There
are
startup
companies
and
most
a
lot
of
young
scientists
working
with
them.
AX
Yeah
and
you'll
see
them
in
the
film,
but
but
we
always
have
to
think
compared
to
what
right,
so
every
nuclear
plant
that
you
don't
build
and
operate
means
you're
going
to
get
the
electricity
from
somewhere
else.
We're
not
de-growthing
the
world
economy,
not
the
poorer
countries
and
that's
where
already
the
majority
of
emissions
come
from,
and
it's
only
growing
fast.
Okay
last
question
we're
out
of
time,
but
very
quickly,
and
it's
just
a
question,
not
a
statement,
a
question.
Sorry,
it's
one
percent:
does
he
know
that
he
asked
it
well?
AX
What
was
that
Oliver
Stone's
face?
Okay,
you
did
it
already
Okay,
but
I
just
want
to
make
a
comment.
No,
no!
No!
No
more
comments!
All
right!
All
right!
Thank
you,
anyway,
make
a
comment.
So
when
we
talk
about
computers
number
one
way
that
we
make
electricity
in
the
world
today
is
coal.
So
it's
always
you
got
to
think.
Do
we
want
coal
or
do
we
want
nuclear
power?
AX
I
mean
Germany's,
making
their
choice
right,
but
the
rest
of
the
world,
coal
and
hundreds
of
millions
of
people
are
rising
up
out
of
poverty
in
the
poorer
countries,
billions
of
people-
and
it's
a
great
thing.
It's
really
great
access
to
energy,
but
they're
doing
it
with
coal.
So
if
you
have
something
better
cheaper,
you
know
more
concentrated
works,
better
they'll
use
that,
and
if
you
have
something
you
know,
that's
really
expensive
and
might
work
in
a
country
like
Germany.
That
is
willing
to
pay
a
lot
they're
not
going
to
do
it.
AX
They'll
do
coal,
they
it's
understandable,
just
to
be
fair
to
the
Ukrainian
journalist
who
was
kicked
out.
Do
you
regret
making
the
movie
about
Putin?
That's
not
the
issue
here.
I
I'm,
very
proud
of
the
movie,
and
actually,
if
you
go,
if
you
look
at
it,
and
very
few
people
do
I
think
you're
going
to
be
surprised
at
what
you'll
learn:
okay,
fair
enough!
Okay!
Thank
you
very
much.