CHAOSS DEI Working Group, 5 Oct 2022

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From YouTube: CHAOSS DEI Working Group October 5, 2022

Description

Minutes and notes from this meeting can be found on https://chaoss.community/participate.

A

Foreign, it is October 5th and today's Wednesday we are at the chaos Dei working group, meeting, I'm Elizabeth the chaos Community manager um just to make it clear. We do not care at any chaos meeting. If you have your camera on or off, uh you're free to participate, however, is more comfortable for you. So if you would prefer to communicate in the chat, that's completely fine, if you do not have to uh do you know, just do whatever feels right for you.

A

B

A

To make that clear in case there's any confusion, I'm gonna share my screen here, so we can get started on the agenda. uh If you would like to put your name on here, you are welcome to do so. We would love that if you don't that's also completely valid, you do not have to record your participation in any way. It's totally fine and I'm curious to know. If you're an early morning, person or a late night person I see a few early mornings there.

A

Anybody a late night imma depends. It depends on what's going on, if I'm doing something, then I'll probably stay up late, but sometimes my brain just wakes up like today, for instance, 4 47 a.m.

A

My brain is like oh, you should get up and do stuff and of course, I didn't because I'm like no it's 4 47 in the morning, I'm not doing that so I laid there until about eight, so I, just scrolled, just you know, checked email did whatever yeah right, Nikki I'm with you yes 100 like did they not get the memo that you know you? You can sleep it's? Okay, it's all right!

A

I guess they got little bladders and little bellies that need full.

A

Okay, so first thing is to pick a facilitator for next week. Does anybody want to try to do that? We do have some documentation to help you if you've never done that before and you would like to give it a shot. This is a great meeting to try that out. Just because, like we're pretty it's pretty pretty easy here, pretty flexible.

C

I could facilitate that.

A

Enoch was that you.

C

Mm-Hmm awesome.

A

You are volunteered thank.

C

A

All right and so um jumping in then to the agenda: do we want? Sometimes we go around and just see how everyone's doing do we want to do that today we have a pretty light agenda.

A

Maybe we could go around and just do a quick intro um for people who don't know who people are okay, that'd, be good, I'll, go ahead and start since I'm, already blabbering away I'm, Elizabeth again and I'm. The community manager here at chaos. I live in Cincinnati Ohio. Hence my Bengals I am a Bengals fan. um That's the football team here. So, um yes, I'm, very excited. We've won two games and we've lost two games. So yeah it's a little sketchy. We don't know how the rest of the season's gonna go, but we're hopeful anyway.

A

I will pass it along to Nikki since they're the next one. On my list.

B

um Good morning, I am Nikki, I use, David, pronouns, I live in um Vermont um and I have a lot of friends who are Bengals fans, and so congratulations, I, I'm, glad they're doing well um and I'm a software engineer and a academic um and I will pass it on to um Anita.

D

Hey everyone um I'm, a developer advocate undertaking curator I'm, currently in Nigeria and um I'm doing great so I'll pass it on to Kade I hope, I pronounced that right.

C

D

um Is Kevin on the call.

E

Oh yep I'm here.

C

E

Hi Kate nice to meet you.

E

uh My name is Kevin uh Lombard I'm, an academic I'm uh located in Nebraska at the University of Nebraska Omaha uh I work with uh I work with Matt and Sean, who aren't on this call currently and I've, been with chaos uh since the beginning. Actually, so, and I will pass it on to but bliff herb life blitherblife.

A

E

Life I'm. Sorry, that's.

C

Okay, um hi I live in Knoxville Tennessee um I'm finishing up my last year at utk um for data analytics and I have my associates in software programming from Pellissippi.

C

um Sorry, if you hear a little voice in the background, my daughter's here, she's homesick today, so she thinks it's fun to jump on. These calls yeah about me um not much to know about me pretty much. I just go to school home life. um I am a utk fan I'm from Detroit. Originally so I feel you we never win lions or so I'm, not really a pro ball fan. It's pretty much just disappointment, but.

A

C

Doing pretty good, we love, we won against Florida. So that's pretty amazing for us.

C

Chat so so I'll tax it on to whoever.

E

Has Victoria gone yet.

C

I'm still here.

C

Okay, hello, guys um Victoria I'm, a product, designer accessibility, Advocate and a technical writer I'm in Nigeria and I'm doing pretty well. Thank you.

A

And I think Ina care you're. The final one I think.

C

He who loves last loves best.

C

I'm excited to hear a lot of our folks here, saying I'm, a software engineer, software engineer I'm like whoa, that's cool, um Enoch, um I'm, a chaotic from Uganda, that's on the eastern part of Africa and um I'm.

C

Actually here to catch up, it's been long um while I was away from the Dei meetings and um hoping to catch up on a lot of updates um throughout this call and proceeding calls yep happy to be here, I'm a software engineer too nice to meet Nikki and the other name that I'm failing to also pronounce, but it's whole so nice to meet you. Everybody.

A

All right, awesome, I, have also missed the last two Dei working group meetings, so I'll probably rely on you all to help fill in because I.

A

um So let's the first thing on the agenda which I just copied from last time, I had dropped this on, even though I wasn't attending I dropped it on just to see if this was something that sounded interesting to people, so um I think yeah, so I just copied it literally from last time. It seems like the idea was pretty well received. If anybody was here and wants to fill in some context there or if there was any action items.

E

I think the uh so the idea was pretty well received. I.

B

E

That I'm the one to to fill in the context on this, uh but I think there is one of the things that we had talked about was making this document part of the website, new contributor, page and I'm, not based on what's here now, I think that that may involve just a little bit of uh uh imagination to make it work because I think, as it's described, it's it's described a little bit more as a as a a checklist that would exist in each Repository, uh I think, maybe maybe Elizabeth or someone else can speak to that.

E

What would it look like? What would this look like on the website.

A

Yeah I think that's a great question so in my mind, I was thinking of so when I joined a company. um This was something they had me do as a new employee, obviously contributors to an open source project, that's a different situation, but the functions the same.

A

You know there are certain tasks that you had to do, and so, when I did this, they had me open an issue in my own repository and then copy the checklist into an issue just in my own repository and so um then I could just kind of go through it on my own time and check things off, and it was very clear and I didn't have to keep um like I didn't have to ask anybody else. What the next step would be.

A

I could just go down my list, um so that's kind of where it came from um when I was thinking about that, though, I wasn't sure if that would work as an issue or if it would be better to have an MD file that somebody could just copy and plop in their own repository um I don't know, um but it seems like it would be better um focused on the website and not so GitHub specific, so um I think that seemed like what the the feedback was from last time.

A

um So let me let me just put an action item here for myself and if anybody wants to do this with me, that's totally fine.

A

um Just think about how this could look on the website and what the flow would be.

A

We do do similar things too, like for um for our mentees uh I. Think at outreachy we had a a list- I, don't remember now, I don't remember now, um but there was like a list of things to do, and it was exactly like this like attend a meeting attend a community meeting or um read through the handbook.

A

Join slack, like all of those things, were things that um would help you kind of get set up to be a part of the community, so any kind of ideas on what would be in that checklist also uh are welcome.

A

What I could do is maybe start a doc and bring it back to this group just for um for more eyes on it. Would that work for people that way we have like a place to start anyway.

E

Works for me, okay, I! Don't want to speak for everyone else, though,.

E

I'm gonna assign me.

A

A

If I don't do this, I will completely forget that this is a thing that I'm supposed to do. You all want to hear a funny story. So I know I'm, just gonna I digress for a minute, because I can't believe I did this I have my brain like I? Don't remember things at all at all. So if, if I forget something that, like a conversation we've had, it is definitely not anything against you. I literally brought a package in yesterday from the front.

A

Porch completely forgot that I did that and when I saw the email that the package was delivered, I was like I didn't get any package. What are they talking about, like I must have gone somewhere else, someone's getting my stuff so I'm, like you know, going through trying to track it trying to get the picture. There was no picture I'm like oh man, so I'm like well.

A

Maybe the camera I have a front porch cameras like maybe that caught it so I can go to my camera and, like there's me, bringing the package inside what what am I even doing with my life I, don't even know so yeah.

A

So if I forget something I, just don't want it against me. Sorry, it's just my brain I, don't know, I, don't understand it anyway. I'm really glad that this is being recorded too. So future employees or employers- don't don't watch this anyway. um Okay, so is there anything else that anybody wants to bring up with regard to this kind of idea of like having a checklist where people could just kind of go and start and do their thing on their own.

A

Cool all right: well, let's move on then um Anita. Do you have an update? If you don't that's, also completely valid I again copied this from last time. So if you do have an update, um we'd love to hear it, if you don't that's cool too.

A

It looks like it needed. uh Are you back yeah.

D

Sorry I got disconnected.

D

um Did I miss anything.

A

Yeah I had actually just um passed it along to you for an update conveniently enough. So um if you do have an update on the interview campaign great, if you don't that's, also completely fine.

A

We can't hear you if you're talking sorry foreign.

A

Okay, I think Anita might be having some audio issues. Maybe.

A

Okay, Anita we'll come back to you. If your audio starts working again, let us know- and um oh I think she might have gotten booted again: no Shucks, okay! Well, we'll come back foreign, so the next thing on here is new metrics. So it looks like we were working on this last time.

A

It looks like Matt got this pretty well that the newcomer experienced and he's just gonna go through these checks. So for those who don't know whenever we develop a new metric, so we will we start out in a Google doc and we have a template that we work from and we all get together in a group in one of these meetings and we help Define this metric together. We all just work in this dock in a Google doc together and then once we get it to a point.

A

After maybe a couple of meetings, a couple iterations, um we decide that we're going to release this metric, like it's pretty good to go, we've had a lot of feedback on it and a lot of people contributing. um So this is the next step and that is to open an issue in the working group.

A

Whatever working group, it is open an issue in this working group and then we have a checklist that we go through so to make sure that we've kind of checked all our boxes to make sure the metric is where it needs to be with regard to process and quality, and all of these things like make sure that links work, make sure headings are right, like all of that kind of stuff.

A

So that's what this is that we're looking at right now for those who may not know and then once we make sure it's all good, then it will go on the website for um public viewing and feedback comments.

A

So it looks like uh Matt's already here on this one and just going through that work s um recognizing contributions still needs to be done, so do we have we do not have a template for that one I, don't think.

A

Does anyone know if we started that last time.

A

We have a um we have this metrics tracking sheet, that we also use to keep everything together kind of in one place with regard to all of the metrics that are in progress that have been released, and then you can see down here. We have them listed by working group. So now we're on the Dei one and we're looking at what were you.

C

Looking at my middle number see I, don't remember.

A

It's been literally 30 seconds, so I, don't remember recognizing contributions, that's what we're doing. Okay.

A

And here it is so this says it's under Community review.

A

Does anyone know if that's the truth, like I, don't know why I don't know why it says that, because I didn't think we had done it but foreign.

E

Is there uh so if it's under review, then there should be a uh markdown document created in the uh uh Dei repository to correspond with this. So that would be the the easy way to check and see if it's under review is to check the see if that document exists and also to see, if there's an issue that corresponds with it,.

A

Okay, let's check that for a second.

A

What was that under that was under what people.

A

Projected Community okay, so let's go over here to our Focus areas. Project and community I do not see it.

A

The key foreign review.

A

Do we want to take I mean this kind of looks like it's been worked on the.

E

Other the other question I would have about this. One is how how is this one different from contribution attribution which exists in the evolution working group right so.

A

E

This does this metric already exist in another working group is my question, uh and if this, if it, uh if this is different from that that metric that already exists, how is it different.

A

See we've we've referenced these others.

E

Contribution attribution.

A

Yeah so right here in.

C

The description.

A

We are recognized, we are referencing, it contribution attribution right.

A

Let's look at that.

A

This metric evaluates, who has worked on the project in a specific project, has.

C

A

Let's just contribute to an open source project on what attribution information about people so.

A

Is attributing the work or like giving someone credit for the work that they've done? Is that the same as recognizing them or.

B

um That's the word: I want.

C

A

Don't know what do you all think.

A

It doesn't open source Community, recognize the spirits, so I think there might be a difference, so I'm thinking of a project that has um like uh visibility into who maybe who the top contributors are as a separate thing from here's. The work that this person's done years of work that this person's done does that make sense like they're, giving they're giving a little extra recognition a little extra bonus of visibility and thanks and appreciation Maybe.

C

What do you all think so.

E

This one is about the mechanisms that are in place to recognize contributors, rather than rather it's not a measure of who the contributors are uh and what they've done, which would be contribution. Attribution.

C

E

This one is a measure of what mechanisms are in place to recognize contributors, uh so I think I think I get that subtly subtly from this document, I, don't think I get it uh explicitly at the at the beginning anyway. So maybe maybe if we could make that more explicit.

A

Foreign yeah um in.

E

The description.

A

Agreed agreed uh so.

E

We get to in that description. We get that first sentence, which says: recognizing contributors is important for how a project acknowledges, uh so that that sentence actually is better, better fits in the objectives.

E

So the the description in uh through these documents that the description should be a very very explicitly describe what this metric is and what it measures and then the the reason that the metric is important or the goal or the objectives of the metric uh is a better fit in that second paragraph So I know we we sometimes get uh we we sometimes uh with the description we sometimes get a little. uh We we jump into that objective, a little bit early, uh but so I would that first sentence. I would maybe.

E

uh Move to the.

A

E

A

Said it should give reasons why it's important and give no.

E

The objective, the objective gives the reason why it's important and the and the possible uses for it right, so the objectives, the goals, things of that nature, the description should vary. It should very explicitly describe what the metric is and what the metric is measuring.

E

I think narratively we narratively we often like to like give the importance of something and then and then provide a narratively people just like to write that way, but with our with our template. It's not uh the importance of this metric and the objective for the metric. Is that second part? So this the description is it's just it's very explicitly what this metric is and what it measures uh so and if, if we keep it that way, we have the ability to.

E

uh You know really say what this metric is and what this metric isn't at the very beginning. So we don't run into the the problem of uh you know. How is this one different from contribution, attribution or yeah, so.

B

E

Is that this is that place where we can really make that distinction.

A

Okay, so a question for the group: do we want to take time and work on this doc a little more right now? Do we have somebody who wants to do it off offline, just kind of take that action item to just add that stuff in or what do we want to do with this.

E

I do say: I see, Anita is back. Do we want to jump back to the uh the previous uh item and then come back to this one? If we have time.

A

Yeah I like that a lot. Let's do that, so a knee uh we're gonna jump back up here. um If you have anything to update yeah.

D

All right um so I noticed his the um Nikki and um Sophia. Let's comments so I wanted us to discuss it in the in the meeting as well. So you can get more thoughts on it. Foreign.

D

Questions and guide.

D

Esf is crowd down to the initial questions. There are some notes that are left there and the one that I actually need to talk more on is the race and ethnicity background. So Nikki I, don't I, don't know if you could throw more light on this, because I wanted to know how else you can um represent this in the questions without having to um be biased about the entire thing.

B

Yeah, that's a I. Think, that's a great question. Sorry, my dogs are a little activated, uh so you might hear them in the background um I think for me. The question is really about like.

B

um If we're, if we're gonna collect it, it's very possible because communities are so small, we don't need to collect it at all. We can instead ask people, do you identify as a racial or ethnic minority in the communities that you're in um and that'll be enough to help us get some insight on whether this person is giving us a like a racialized perspective on a Dei metric um but I?

B

Think what's tricky is that in a North American context, um we need to be really careful about whether or not we call somebody black or African-American or African or Jamaican, right or Kenyan, like all of those things are so separate to how, um in general, we're thinking about race here, um certainly that's not true, globally um and so I think. Maybe it's like I need more information about how we're even going to use race or ethnicity um in our analysis and whether what we're actually asking for is. Are you right?

B

Are you black or if what we're asking for is? Are you giving us insights that come from a black American Experience? Does that make sense.

C

D

Affect them or influence.

B

B

Can you hear me.

D

Oh, my goodness,.

D

So um can you hear me now.

E

C

D

All right so yeah, we included this because it's um like part of the we just want to see how this different underrepresented groups, based on how this person's identify all these people that under identify all that is under presented groups, are affected by these metrics, and that's why we included this. But um so, if I get what you're trying to say correctly, um I say we should separate the race or the ethnicity or we should be include it at all.

B

Yeah I think leaving it out is hard right, like uh other surveys that leave race and ethnicity out really get slammed for it. So I don't know that I'm not saying we should not ask it. I, think I'm guessing um that we can either separate them out or we can um simply make it free text and let people identify in ways that they feel comfortable and that they feel safe to identify. Given the context in which they're answering the question.

D

All right, so we should take out the options, then great, all right, thanks for that, all right, so the next one I also want to further discuss on is um the gender spectrum they identify us. So you say we should talk about the shorter version of how we can phrase that question so like I'm.

E

Real you might expect real, quick, I'm, sorry before we move on to the next one. uh So uh accepting free text in in the in this in this part of the survey for the racial and ethnic background we'll make it very very difficult to analyze, uh so it so we may, if the. If the goal is to uh when you're doing the analysis.

E

If the goal is to uh categorize or separate these different types of responses, you may want to think about that in how you build that that selector, where it's you know, maybe you have two or three selections and a free text box uh that'll that'll help with the analysis down the line so.

B

I I mean I, hear you Kevin and we're gonna we're gonna get into free tax problems again when we talk about gender and sexuality, um and so I think the thing that I wonder about excuse me is whether or not um you know what I need I hear your point of like we want to know how X metric affects someone with X identity, um but I think one of the things. Certainly when we ask about race and gender when we ask about gender.

B

Excuse me one of the things that we're really asking is not are you fans, but are you a person who has spent time living under gender oppression um a lot of times? um Are you a person who experiences medical gatekeeping with regard to care, rather than caring? Whether or not someone is trans, and so it's very possible that one of the things we can do is rather than giving a ton of free text boxes. Ask those questions really specifically right. um Are you a person who wants to do a legal name change?

B

Are you a person who doesn't have access to health care? That makes you feel good in your body right um and that might help with analysis as well, because in general we want to give people a free text box to type in right there, their gender and their sexuality.

E

I think that to me that sounds like a uh a better idea, because one of the one of the other problems we have with that. The analysis on the back end is that we move the with the free text box scenario. We kind of move the we move, the bias to the analysis right, because then it becomes the uh the the researchers decision on how they categorize people into these different buckets and and what those buckets May mean. Regarding the questions so I um explicitly asking those questions.

E

The way Nikki is describing uh is uh I. Think I think that would be a better option.

C

D

um Does that also include the gender Spectrum as under races, racial I, love, ethnic.

B

I mean I think so: I'm less certainly less qualified to talk about race in a global context, um but but I think to Kevin's point. If what we want is I want way to do analysis, then, asking questions that are specifically about an assumed experience will make that easier than.

C

B

Check this box, if your ex foreign.

C

A

Sorry, Anita I have a quick question for you or Nikki or whoever. um So these initial screening questions says this will be an open survey to scout for interview subjects. So is the idea that this would be the thing that, like the results from these questions, are what we're doing our analysis on or are these just like uh get to know you questions that are going to lead us to the people we want to interview and that's where we're going to get our data.

D

Yeah, these are the get to know, questions that will lead us to the individuals.

D

Of to participate like or requests for the follow-up, which is something I, also wanted to bring up because Sophia left a comment about the um follow-up um calls so yeah. These individuals would either if they indicate interest for the follow-up conversations, then we proceed from there. But this is just to get like the overall data.

E

So my my prior understanding of this, when we, when it's been discussed in the past, is that this demographic information was going to be connected to responses.

D

E

Specific responses and that understanding the demographics of these people uh and connecting it to their responses was an important part of uh this uh research.

D

Well, yes, because if you check the questions that were asked here, some of these questions are specific to understanding the responses, and we just want to use this as initial, because not every single person that asks for this would want to have like a one-on-one call but like if we get like the few questions to indicate interest um for the further conversations. We cannot sum it up with the with the response of these ones in the report. So.

E

If the, if the demographic information is connected directly to the questions, and we will be analyzing uh those things together, then I would say that the this is it's more than just a survey to scout interview subjects.

E

It is it is uh it's not just an initial screening? It's it's definitely part of the uh an important part of the uh and possibly a key part of the interview, slash survey. So it's.

E

uh If, if uh the way, if as if it's, uh if it's just an open survey to scout for interview subjects, then as it's written there, then then my anticipation is that the we wouldn't be reporting demographic information and we wouldn't be analyzing that demographic information uh in relationship to responses. So this this is kind of the the demographic bit feels like this is a key cog.

E

D

So um are there any thoughts on this so far, like any other additions to this? So what Kevin just said.

E

E

Perhaps perhaps we could provide some example, questions that could uh fill in for the uh which racial ethnic background do you identify with and what gender Spectrum do you identify with. Maybe that would be helpful.

D

Yes, um you can drop that in the in the document as a suggestion. So can we discuss on that too? Yes,.

C

D

So um Sophie has suggestions that um if we want to collect this survey- and um you know the question where we say- please provide your online contact if you're willing to participate in the follow-up conversations. So Sophia is asking if this would not make the if this will make the com the entire form, no longer Anonymous, so I just want to know. Should we still?

D

If we don't ask this question in this survey, how else can we get in contact with um with the participants or is there any other way? We could get it in contact with the participant if you don't get to requests for their contact information at all in the in the form.

E

uh So I think it only it only de-anonymizes the data if the email is connected to the data. So if you, if you grab it and send that email address to a different place, uh then then that would be a way of of maintaining kind of the the anonymity as as much as we can uh in this document.

E

So if you're, creating, if you're creating a form to collect this data, Maybe the the the survey interview data is sent to one place and then, when you collect the email address, you just send that to a different place.

D

All right so, having like a spreadsheet where this would be put, would help.

E

um What survey, what survey tool do you plan on using to to do this? Have you looked at that yet.

D

For like the I'm using line survey, that's the tool I'm currently using.

E

E

uh So I'm not familiar with that tool, so I don't know if that's possible, but basically the the basic idea is that you need to in order to maintain anonymity on this. You need for in regards very specifically in regards to the email collecting the email is you need to. You need to separate the data collection right, so you don't want the you. Don't want your email to go to the same place as the rest of the data.

C

E

uh Or if it does go there, you want to you want to scrub it out, remove it before you do the data analysis, so the the easiest way to make sure that they're that they're never connected would be to send that email address to a different place when you're collecting it right. So the uh uh so. There are two ways to do that. One is to if the form allows you to uh send it to a different Target.

E

The form tool allows you to send it to a different Target. Perhaps you can send it collect it as an email uh or put it into a put it into a a different kind of database alternately. You could provide some directions like you could provide a link at the bottom of the the email that says, if you want to.

E

uh If you want to participate, email me right and you have a you- can have an email link, that'll that would connect to your email address uh and just ask them to uh send an email that says: I want to participate.

E

So if you do that, then the then that participation, email wouldn't be connected to the data that you've just collected, and you wouldn't have any way of you yourself as a researcher wouldn't have any way of of connecting it back together.

E

Does that make sense.

C

E

So that would be the oh sorry.

A

I was just going to say, I'm really confused, though, because I thought that the point of the initial survey was to identify folks for the interviews, and that, like you, would use the information from their first survey in that interview. Is that not true.

C

D

Yes, um however, the question is: if we um request for the contact information, it might reduce the anonymity of the survey. That's what we're trying to debate how to go about this.

A

So you want that first part to be completely Anonymous, but also allow for us to contact them, because then, at that point that it's not Anonymous, obviously because they're getting interviewed and recorded and yeah so, okay, yeah I, think I understand.

E

Yeah and there are kind of two places where we can think about anonymity. uh One of them is on the the front end where we want to avoid uh kind of researcher bias, and we want to uh kind of. Let people know that it's safe for them to take the survey and that their their data isn't going to be shared and then the second place we we we can start to think about anonymity is in the analysis of the data uh so and there.

E

Those are two kind of different things with a survey you kind of want to. You want to focus on anonymity at the front end and with interviews. You want to focus on anonymity at the back end right.

E

So if you're doing an interview with someone you're going to know who that person is as a researcher, so the way that you the way that you need to assure anonymity there is, it happens after you've interviewed that person right where you go in and you remove names and you remove references to things that could be that that could identify them uh so that so they're kind of these two different places that you need to think about. Anonymity uh in the in that first, one that uh Sophia mentions.

E

That's anonymity on the data collection that that first part the data collection part and that- and that comment is made very specifically uh because because we're looking at survey data and when you're encouraging people to fill out surveys, they often don't want to be identified. So you need to make sure that you're you're collecting it in a way that uh that they can rest assured that they're that the responses that they are giving you aren't going to be recorded connected to any personal information right so on. When we.

B

Talk about the interviews.

E

It's a it's a different kind of anonymity right because we, by necessity, we know who these people are when we interview them at that point,.

C

E

That make sense.

C

D

All right so, um however, at the beginning of the interview, I added a privacy note indicating that information collected will not be associated with. um There will not be in any way connected to this persons that are rendering this interview so like does that cover this in any way or I should also include it in the um question a particular question as well.

D

Would that help.

D

What I, then add my email there, so email me if you want to be contacted.

A

I think that seems reasonable, but I'm not an expert, so I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't.

A

Okay, I do know where, at the end of time, so um we can continue this next time. If that's, okay with everybody.

D

All right um so um Kevin, if I replace this I'll, send you a message in the slack, so you could go over it as well and then we'll talk about it in the next meeting.

E

C

Thank you. Okay,.

E

A

Thank you so much Anita for your work here and Kevin for your insights, Enoch and Victoria. We will see you next time. Hopefully um yeah everybody have a great rest of your day. Thank you. So much.

C