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From YouTube: CHAOSS Value Working Group Meeting 1-14-21
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A
Welcome
all
please
add
yourself
to
the
agenda
we're
having
the
first
value
working
group
meeting
of
the
year,
so
I
thought
only
agenda
held
so
far
is
trying
to
just
recap.
Some
of
the
interesting
topics
we
covered
over
the
last
year,
maybe
do
a
little
bit
of
dusting
off
of
what
we
had
thought
through
and
picking
up
on.
What's
important
for
the
new
year,
and
you
know
just
start
with,
anyone
want
to
give
a
a
brief
catch
up.
Why
don't
we
just
with
you
sean
like
in
in
a
two
sentences
or
fewer?
B
My
the
lower
level
of
my
garage
was
completed
and
I
moved
my
office
into
it.
So
now,
I'm
in
a
concrete
bunker,
concrete
and
steel
bunker,
with
a
very
beautiful,
very
beautiful
instead
of
garage
door,
I
have
a
large
sliding
door
and
a
glass
door,
so
I
have
like
tons
of
natural
light
and
what
was
previously
a
dank
and
dark
room,
but
since
it
was
totally
destroyed
and
restored,
this
is
pretty
good.
Now,
good.
A
F
I'm
doing
okay,
we
had
a
covid
in
the
house
actually
over
over
the
holidays.
My
daughter
had
it
and
she's
pregnant,
so
it
was
a
little
touch
and.
D
F
For
that
yeah
we
were,
of
course
I've
like
we've
been
so
careful
this
whole
time,
and
I
was
like
we
almost,
but
it's
okay,
it's
all
good
and
she's
feeling
much
better
she's
back
to
work
like
everybody's
doing
good,
and
so
yes,
it
all
worked
out.
So
I'm
doing
all
right.
A
Good
good,
good
and
steven
welcome.
How
are
things
going
your
way
and
where
are
you
located.
G
Our
got
our
academic
ospos
started
as
of
the
end
of
august,
and
we
landed
a
sloan
foundation
grant
to
do
to
create
an
internal
team
to
support
open
source
projects
for
faculty
and
staff,
so
I've
got
a
full-time
staffer
and
five
students
coming
on
the
staffers
started
january.
4Th
the
students
start
when
classes
start
in
about
two
weeks
and
matt
and
georg
wanted
me
to
start
attending
these.
To
start
talking
about
what
academic
metrics
might
look
like
yeah,
it's
awesome.
G
Not
much
really,
actually
it's
not
buffalo,
there's
a
significant
difference
between
I
mean
you'll
still
see
like
we
get
80
90
100
inches
of
snow,
but
at
most
of
time
anymore
anyway,
it's
like
lake
effect
with
like
an
inch
or
so
flurry
that
fell
and
our
our
days
of
you
know
4,
8,
12,
etc,
inches
of
snow
and
one
massive
dump,
that's
happening
like
once
or
twice
a
year
now.
So
it's
that
that
global
warning,
fake
news
stuff.
You
know
that
isn't
really
happening.
Yeah,
it's
it's
kind
of
happening,
so
fair.
A
Enough
yeah
and
out
here
in
minneapolis,
I
grew
up
east
of
rochester
in
the
adirondacks,
but
I
boomeranged
this
way
with
my
partner
and
it
is
snowing
quite
a
lot
and
I
like
it
and
the
break
was
faster
than
any
of
us
would
have
liked
on
my
end.
But
I
got
a
good
few.
A
I
didn't
get
any
more
baking
in
which
I'll
have
to
save
that
for
a
conversation
with
matt,
but
I
got
some
good
cook
good
meals
and
I
made
some
ramen
from
scratch,
like
all
the
pizzas,
and
that
was
really
fun
like.
Would
you
do
a
dough
and
stuff
yeah?
A
I
made
some
noodles
for
the
first
time,
which
isn't
isn't
too
challenging
just
messy,
but
the
thing
that
I
put
the
most
attention
to
was
making
chashu,
which
is
like
the
marinated
pork
that
you
put
on
top
okay
and
then
trying
a
few
different
types
of
broth
which
can
get
kind
of
tricky
too,
but
pretty
fun.
We've
got
like
a
bunch.
It
looks
like
a
lab
inside
my
fridge
right
now.
A
My
wife
is
very
tolerant,
well
good.
So
that's
great
context,
and
and
just
good
to
see
everybody
again
just
wanted
to
see
like
where
we
like
what
we
went
through
in
the
last
year.
A
I
jumped
in
pretty
much
the
in
march
april
timeline
to
start
after
a
conversation
with
george
for
the
third
or
fourth
time
on
on
considering
a
reframing
of
value
and
seeing
if
that
reframing,
in
my
mind,
also
fit
the
project,
and
we
landed
on
these
different
buckets
that
we've
been
using
the
the
chaos
metrics
v2
I'll
just
send
that
link
in
chat
as
a
reference
it's
at
the
top
of
the
google
doc
as
well.
A
But
we
we
have
these
four
cleared
delineations
of
value
in,
in
which
we
can
frame
the
question
of
what
is
valuable.
So
with
that
context,
I
just
want
to
know
what
you
all
want
to
kind
of
either.
Let's
start
with:
are
there
any
like
essential
takeaways,
like
things
you're,
really
happy
that
we
got
into
that
were
interesting,
that
and
whether
we
need
to
keep
going
down
that
path
or
pivot
from
it?
Is
there
anything
that
comes
to
mind
from
last
year.
F
I
will
say:
I'm
I'm
glad
that
we
ended
up
pulling
out
societal
value
and
and
giving
it
its
own
space
and
I'm
I'll
be
excited
to
delve
more
into
those,
because
those
are
hard.
You
know,
that's
like
those
are
challenging
things
to
talk
about
and
to
figure
out,
and
so
I'm
looking
forward
to
that.
A
lot
for
2021.
A
I
love
that
it
really
is
challenging
because
it
gets
us
down
to
like
the
philosophical
roots
of
what
it
means
to
be
valuable
to
a
society,
and
that's
kind
of
I
know
there
are
a
number
of
phds
collectively
on
on
this
brady
bunch
call,
but
I
don't
know
if
anyone
has
a
a
deep
look
at
moral
philosophy
but
at
the
same
time
we're
all
implying
it
day-to-day
in
what
we
consider
valuable
through
what
we
measure.
So
it
is
applicable.
G
No,
I
I
like
this
is
the
the
societal
value
space
under
the
the
moniker
of
there's.
There's
a
moniker,
that's
that's
for
a
handle.
That's
been
floating
around
for
a
while
called
hfos
or
humanitarian
foss
yeah
right,
I'm
not
familiar
with
that.
My
my
program
and
several
others
were
built
around
so
and
do
you
guys
know
the
unicef
innovation
guidelines
for
working
with
doing
humanitarian
tech.
B
I
don't
know
the
unicef
guidelines,
although
I've
worked
with
greg
hislop
extensively
and
you
probably
know
him
from
the
hvac
movement.
So
I
have
a
general
idea
how
hvas
is
viewed,
but
I
haven't
looked
at
the
unicef
guidelines.
G
So
yeah
greg
and
I
greg
greg
and
heidi
in
that
whole
yeah.
G
G
G
I
hosted
it
at
rit
for
a
couple
of
years
and
then
red
hat
stopped
funding
it
and
greg
and
heidi
had
rebooted
it
into
a
more
online
experience.
With
a
shorter
in-person
experience,
they've
got
been
very
successful.
Getting
a
couple
of
large
nsf
grants
to
keep
it
afloat,
but
their
focus
has
always
been
primarily
yes,
departments
or
related
departments,
and
they
have
a
a
teaching
value
which
is
totally
valid.
Of
getting
kids
productively
lost
in
a
big
code
base.
G
They
work
with
pretty
regularly
in
their
courses
like
ushahidi
and
folks
like
that,
but
I'm
really
more
of
a
multi-disciplinary
approach
coming
out
of
a
games
program
where
in
games
you
have
you
know,
designers
and
writers
in
this
and
the
other
thing,
and
so
they're
they're,
throw
kids
who
are
very
well
trained
in
programming
into
a
large
code
base,
doesn't
work
for
my
population
at
all,
and
so
that's
why
we
built
our
open
source
minor,
to
have
these
to
be
much
more
open
to
folks
from
a
lot
of
different
backgrounds
and
the
the
cook
program
that
I've
been
running
called
librecore,
which
is
started
as
hire
a
kid
for
a
humanitarian
project
to
do
tech,
for
you
evolved
into
a
essentially
a
an
open
source
community
consulting
group,
and
we
did
a
contract
for
unicef
on
that.
G
G
And
then
they
don't
go
anywhere
because
they
can't
build
a
community
around
it.
So
we're
like
in
in-house
community
consulting
firms
so
that
we
can
work
with
rit
professor
and
staff
projects,
whether
they
own
them
or
whether
they
are
active
contributors
to
something
bigger
than
themselves
and
do
the
community
building
and
support
and
documentation,
etc.
Piece
around
the
project
because
they
didn't
have
the
cycles
or
the
funding
to
do
it.
A
It's
going
to
be
really
helpful
context.
When
we
get
to
you
know
what
does
it
mean
to
be
valuable
in
the
context
of
what
you're,
providing
if
you're
able
to
get
grants,
then
you're
able
to
provide
value
is
like
the
premise
conclusion:
I'm
I'm
trying
to
pull
the
strings
on.
So
it's
really
good.
We
should.
A
We
should
cue
that
up,
because
I
I
wrote
rit
ospo
down
for
discussion
started
last
year,
that
we
should
consider
continuing
and
you
know
framing
out
like
what
the
objective
is
there
like,
whether
it
or
whether
there
are
discrete
metrics,
already
kind
of
floating
around
that
we
need
to
capture
or
whether
there
are
further
discussions
to
facilitate
in
this
space,
so
that
we
can
find
those
metrics.
G
B
G
It
do
that
so
just
really
briefly,
we
can
we
can
go
into
it
in
depth
at
another
time,
but
academy
academic
careers
are
structured
around
education,
research
and
server
service.
If
you're
a
professor,
those
are
the
three
legs
of
the
tool
around
which
you
get
tenure
and
promotion
is
the
balance
in
your
success
and
education,
research
and
service.
G
The
green
stuff
is
the
stuff
that
the
ospo
is
supposed
to
be
helping
with,
and
then
the
brown
stuff
is
what
sloan
funded
us
to
do
and
on
that
web
page
in
the
chat
there's
an
in
paragraph
linked
to
to
the
word
charter,
and
you
can
click
on
that
and
see
all
of
the
stuff
that
I'm
supposed
to
get
accomplished
in
two
years.
God
help
me
yeah,
but
that's
I
mean
you
know
I
don't
want
to
occupy
at
least
this
meeting
talking
about
that
stuff.
I'm
certainly
happy
to
go
into
depth.
B
I
think
I
think
so
so
open
source
program
offices
are
a
value
proposition
for
universities
in
particular,
so
I
think
that
it
makes
sense
that
this
is
is-
and
I
guess
just
my
question
is:
are
these
value
metrics
that
we
we
want
to
start
thinking
about
academically
or
or
is
how
what
is?
What
do
you
think,
is
the
best
way
for
chaos
to
to
work
with
chaos
to
help
advance
your
your
areas,
this
stuff.
G
G
G
A
A
G
How
many
people
you
know
how
many
people
have
downloaded
how
many
people
have
given
you
a
bug
report?
How
many
people
have
contributed?
How
many
people
have
forked
right
you
can?
You
can
show
evidence
of
what's
happening
in
your
project
much
more
directly
and
easily
than
you
can
by
these
three
layers
of
abstraction
to
38
professors
quoted
my
journal
article
in
their
journal
articles
right.
That's
what
we're
judging
the
performance
of
faculty
on
is
to
how
many
people
use
your
work
as
a
footnote
to
their
work.
A
Completely
yeah
and
and
we're
we're
here
for
that
discussion
for
sure
the
extension
of
value
yeah
go
for
kevin.
H
All
right,
I
I
had
to
step
away
for
a
moment
towards
the
start
of
that
conversation,
but
I
I
liked
a
lot
of
what
I
was
hearing
and
what
what
I
was
kind
of
hearing
is
that
maybe
we
should
add
another
focus
area
to
our
to
our
work.
Maybe
academic
value
and
work
on
metric
value
metrics
in
that
area,.
G
18
months
ago,
somewhere
between
18
months
ago
and
two
years
ago
and
and
they're,
not
there's
not
a
lot
out
there
publicly
in
terms
of
what
they're
doing
with
it
and
what's
going
on
with
it,
there's
me
and
then
there's
a
lot
of
other,
at
least
in
the
u.s,
it's
harder
to
figure
out
what's
going
on
in
south
america,
and
there
are
a
lot
of
other
universities
that
are
starting
to
talk
about
it,
who
have
declared
the
intent
to
open
one.
But
it's
it's
a
very
own.
G
It
takes
time
right
so
ospo
plus
plus,
is
talking
about
this.
There's
a
sustained
academic
working
group.
That's
talking
about
this!
The
conversations
are
starting
to
happen.
G
G
H
While
you
were
doing
that,
I
was
adding
the
academic
value
to
our
spreadsheet
at
the
bottom.
If
that's,
okay,
with
everyone.
A
H
We
want
to
probably
want
to
create
an
issue
to
discuss
it.
Yes,
okay,.
G
G
G
G
H
Understanding
was
they:
they
built
this
themselves
and
they're
they're
loosely
using
chaos,
metrics
right.
G
A
Well,
that's
good!
Maybe
we
can
pause
pause
on
diving
too
much
further
into
that
and
think
holistically
about
the
value
group
yeah.
G
They're
creating
engagement,
dashboards
and
summary
pages,
and
their
engagement
reports
are
including
code
commits
mailing
lists,
meeting
attendance,
email
groups,
training
and
event,
participation,
yeah
right
and
they're
gonna,
and
so
some
of
those
things
would
be
things
that
academics,
you
know,
might
might
boost
the
academic
thing,
because
part
of
you
know
it's
how
many
journals
have
you
published
in
and
how
many
presentations
have
you
made
in
science?
There
is
now
this
this
thing
about
digital
preprints
and
excuse
me,
and
have
you
guys,
looked
at
the
center
for
open
science
at
all.
B
So
I've
heard
of
it,
but
I'm
not.
G
G
There's
there's
a
whole
idea
in
science
of
pre-prints,
which
are
stuff
that
you've
published
and
circulated
on
your
your
experiments
before
you've
been
officially
published
and
certified
as
being
real
in
a
journal
and
through
replication
but
you're
starting
to
get
the
world
out
there
right.
So
there's
some
idea
of
you
know
how
much
attention
your
preprints
getting
versus
your
final
published
articles
and
they
they
carry
less
weight.
A
If
that
makes
sense,
I
I'm
getting
the
theme
that
there
is
a
healthy
overlap
in
the
objectives
that
you
have
for
for
quantifying
academic
value
in
the
modern
era.
And
you
have
a
lot
of
great
references
here
that
we
can
parse
through
and
look
for
the
appropriate
ways
to
quantify
those
and
add
them
to
the
catalog.
G
I'm
still
in
the
learning
stage
for
some
of
this
stuff,
open
science
and
open
data
use,
you
know
for
my
limited
observations.
Anything
that's
open
right
is
built
off
of
open
source
right,
so
there
are
similarities,
but
there
are
differences
and
I'm
trying
to
learn.
So
I
can
better
serve
the
people
at
my
university.
G
Where
can
I
pull
the
value
points
out
of
to
be
able
to
use
to
convince
it's
not
even
unfortunately,
my
university,
because
it's
each
college
that
really
holds
the
power
over
here's?
What
we
consider
important
for
promotion
and
tenure,
but
I'm
trying
to
get
to
the
place
where
I
can
start
making
arguments
based
on
deeper
understanding
and
some
actual
evidence
versus
just
knowing,
in
my
gut
that
we're
doing
it
wrong.
H
Thank
you,
that's
really
helpful,
and
then
I
I
just
added
the
I
added
the
area
to
our
spreadsheet,
but
perhaps
we
could
have
the
discussion
about
what
initial
metrics
might
fit
in
there
in
the
issue
rather
than
in
the
in
the
spreadsheet
yeah.
It's
a
great
idea.
A
Maybe
we
can,
why
not?
Why
don't
we
we
add
the
link
under
there
just
so.
If
someone
comes
along
point
in
that
direction
as
well
and
and
it's
in
the
description
yeah
just
to
link
the
dots
there
or
connect
the
dots
yep.
G
When
this
group
feels
better
about
the
very
first
rough
rough
draft
like
getting
getting
input
from
the
folks
in
the
sustained
working
group
and
the
the
ospo
plus
plus
group,
richard
littauer,
is,
is
pretty
active
in
both
of
those,
and
so
you
know,
and
and
starting
to
to
do
the
podcasts
and
stuff.
H
One
of
the
I
think,
one
of
the
things
that's
going
to
be
difficult
with
the
academic
value
metrics,
is
that
the
perspective
is
going
to
be
is
going
to
be
different.
You
know
in
our
other
value,
metrics
we've
kind
of
got
it
separated
out
to
organizational
value
the
contributor
value
when
we
get
down
to
academic
value.
All
of
those
things
are
going
to
be
kind
of
probably
dropped
into
that
same
focus
area
right,
so
the
researchers
who
create
the
software
need
to
have
value.
H
G
D
G
I
think
that's
probably
right.
One
of
the
real
challenges
is:
where
do
you
pull
this
stuff
from
right?.
H
But
I
do
think
they're
well.
Well,
organizational
value
could
be
the
same
as
academic
institution
value
for
for
some
things.
I
do
think
that
we
need
an
academic
value
focus
area
because
not
all
of
those
organizational
value
metrics
are
going
to
be
are
going
to
match
one-to-one
with
institutional
value
for
for
yeah.
A
H
Okay,
I
was
just
I
was
just
wondering
if
we
could
jump
back
to
the
the
beginning
of
the
conversation.
I
think
the
we
we
started
this
by
talking
about
what
we
wanted
to
work
on
moving
forward.
Exactly
I
do
have
a
I
do.
Have
an
answer
to
that
question,
and
academic
value
is
something
that
I
would
like
to
work
on
moving
forward,
but
in
regards
to
what
the
working
group
has
been
done
doing
prior,
I
would
actually.
I
would
like
to
see
more
focus
on
the
organizational
value
focus
area.
H
I
think
that's
the
I
think
that's
the
hardest
focus
area
we
have
the
the
other,
the
other
ones
I
think
they're
a
little
easier
to
do
organizational
value
is
the
is
the
big
question
that
that
no
one
seems
to
be
able
to
answer
and
in
the
interviews
that
I've
done
with
community
managers
and
product
managers
about
open
source.
H
This
is
these
are
the
metrics
that
they
are
really
really
requesting,
because
they
they
need
to
be
able
to
justify
their
existence,
so
so
I
would.
It
would
be
nice
if
we
could
focus
a
little
bit
more
on
organizational
value,
even
though
I
do
realize
that
the
that's
the
this
is
the
the
wicked
problem
here
right.
The
really
complex
one.
H
A
A
Whether
I
was
at
a
corporation
that
makes
microproc
or
like
yeah
make
cpus
that
are
well
known,
or
I
was
at
a
startup
pitching
of
vc
they're,
not
necessarily
statistically
significant
or
even
validly,
framed
their
their
narratives,
and
you
wrap
up
the
narrative
in
whatever
somebody
wants
to
hear
whatever
kind
of
belief
system
they're
currently
holding
so
it's
it's
there.
A
There
isn't
a
one
correct
way
to
quantify
the
success,
and
I
struggle
with
like
how
do
we
balance
both
like
getting
to
statistical
significance
and
rigor
as
a
and
get
mark
those
down
as
like?
This
is
what
we
recommend
doing
to
see
real
trends
versus
how
do
you
get
paid?
Those
don't
often
align.
Unfortunately,
I
haven't
yet
found
them
to
consistently
align
in
my
career
or
to
I
talk
to
people
doing
similar
work
every
day.
A
A
We
broke
into
a
few
different
pieces
and
the
decomposition
it
looks
more
rigorous,
but
it's
also
not
going
to
be
applied
in
my
opinion,
based
on
the
experience
there,
because
people
just
have
a
bias
of
like
what
it
means
to
be
popular
they're
gonna
pattern
match
against
that,
and
then
you
know
throw
five
million
dollars
at
a
project
that
seems
popular
and
I
don't
know
I
don't
quite
know
how
to
merge
those
worlds.
A
I
don't
have
any
answers
either.
I
just
like
I'm
just
staring
at
that
problem,
like
I'd
love,
to
figure
out
how
to
pick
that
apart.
G
G
You
know
we,
the
ford
foundation
work
we
did
was
to
look
at
a
the
question
was
you
know,
do
maintainers
and
users
have
the
same
concept
of
what
it
means
to
be
a
sustainable
project,
sure,
and-
and
that
is
I'm
not
sure
I
had
that
clear
right
right,
and
so
how
does
that
help
and
hurt
a
project
and-
and
we
looked
at
pi
pi,
which
took
multiple
years
to
to
finally
refactor
to
what
is
it
refinery
or
something
like
that
is?
G
Is
the
new
flavor
of
it,
but
took
them
years
to
be
able
to
refactor
their
project
and
and
a
lot
of
the
cognitive
split
between
the
group
was
what
was
important.
G
That
within
the
culture
of
the
community,
the
project
leads
felt
that
devoting
resources
to
things
like
docs
and
recruiting
and
community
outreach.
All
that
other
stuff
were
a
drag
installing
the
project
right
that
there
was
so
much
of
a
focus
on
code
development
that
they
couldn't
get
anything
done.
And
then
even
the
people
who
had
been
brought
on
specifically
to
do
things
like
community
management
got
to
the
point
where
they
felt
they
were
dragging
the
project
down
by
not
focusing
on
the
code
right.
So
it's
easy
to
do
that
in
a
narrative.
A
There
good,
oh,
hey
and
I'd,
be
remiss
we're
we
stopped
at
50,
so
I
I
I
want
I'd,
be
remiss
not
to
bring
up
that
sean.
You
did
a
you
know,
task
of
decomposing
the
scms
metric
system
into
what
we
were.
You
know
colloquially,
calling
atomic
it's
atomic
elements
and
I
I
know
you've
got
a
lot
of
headway
on
there
and
I
just
want
to
check
in
on
like
where
do
you
feel
we
are
in
that
space?
A
A
B
I
mean
I
think
we
can
develop
the
metrics
to
this
point.
I
I
think
it's
been
you
and
I
who
have
had
an
interest
in
that,
but
I
haven't
seen
broader
interests
and
I've.
I've
been
a
little
confused
about
what's
happening
with
scms
honestly,
like
there's
been
some
very
weird
conversations
about
intellectual
property
and
naming.
I
think
we
did.
We
changed
the
name
of
what
we
were
calling
it
now.
B
Yeah
so
so
yeah
I
mean,
if
there's
I
think,
if
there's
support
within
this
group
to
start
working
on
those
metrics,
we
could
use
some
of
these
meetings
to
just
do
what
we
do
with
other
working
groups
and
start
chugging
through
those.
I
think
the
question
is:
if
those
are
a
priority,
that's
that
that
are
aligned
with
you
know,
stephen's
interests
your
interests.
B
Certainly
I
did
do
a
lot
of
work
on
them,
so
I'd
be
happy
to
push
them
forward.
I
just
it
felt
like
I
I
felt
like
it
was
a
bit
of
an
ambiguous
situation,
and
so
I
wasn't
I
wasn't
like
diving
in
to
do
it
because
I
wasn't
sure
if
there
was
larger
support
for
doing
it.
You
know.
A
Sure
yeah,
I
I
would
say
yeah,
there's
support
overall,
but
we
we
definitely
had
some
some
concerning
hurdles
because
they're
just
unknowns
and
the
possibility
of
intellectual
property
being
involved.
A
So
we
all
hit
the
brakes
all
the
more
reason
to
bring
it
back
to
the
surface
and
say
I
think,
we're
over
the
hump
of
that
and
if
there's
meaningful
metrics
to
pull
from
it,
we
we
can
start
to
consider
those
because
going
full
circle
to
kevin's
point
on
organizational
value
like
we
need
the
building
blocks,
to
have
a
discussion
around
organizational
value
and
I
think
a
lot
of
what
social
listening
needs
in
order
to
do.
That
is
the
stuff
that
you
know.
A
G
Stuff
there's
been
stuff-
that's
been
addressed
in
that
within
the
academic
space
as
well,
it's
kind
of
unclear
as
to
how
much
attention
people
are
really
paying
to
it.
There
was
this
big
push
around
alt
metrics
a
while
ago,
and-
and
there
are
a
couple
of
proprietary
paid
services
that
kind
of
track
that
stuff,
but
it's
oh
I'll,
try
to
remember
where
they
are,
but
but
a
google
search
on
like
academic
alt
metrics
should
start
to
bring
stuff
up.
A
A
D
Yeah,
that's
where,
like
this
is
the
main
challenge
I
feel
in
the
value
working
group
than
in
any
other
group,
because
value
is
highly
contextual
and
the
same
thing
can
be
viewed
from
a
different
angles
by
different
people
or
different
stakeholders.
I
would
say,
rather
than
just
people
like
different
stakeholders
perceive
and
value
the
same
thing
in
a
different
way.
So
it's
like
you're
looking
at
the
elephant,
but
everybody's
looking
at
a
different
part
of
the
same
elephant
and
assessing
it
accordingly.
A
A
Yeah,
I
mean
to
me
yeah
oversimplified,
but
what
what's
a
good
metric
and
a
story
on
top?
If
it's
not
oversimplified,
I
like
the
the
story.
I'm
telling
myself
is
that,
like
there
are
these
collections
of
atomic
parts
that
are
applicable
in
lots
of
different
ways,
but
if
we
have
a
mature
enough
like
synthetic
or
aggregate
metric,
it
will
fit
firmly
into
one
camp,
because
the
organization
and
the
individual
don't
care
about
the
same
thing
as
visualized.
A
Even
if
it's
the
same
parts,
it's
visualized
differently.
So
maybe
like
to
me
that
that
tells
me
like,
we
don't
actually
know
the
user
well
enough
like
and
we're
not
giving
them
enough
of
a
like
an
end
result
that
they
can
actually
use
it.
If
it's
generic.
This
is
like
product
management
101.
If
it's
generic
enough
to
fit
multiple
personas,
you
have
no
customers,
so
I
I
feel
that
we
run
into
that
here
and,
and
maybe
a
metric
isn't
the
right
output
here,
it's
like
we
need
playbooks
almost.
H
I
think
that's
where
the
that's,
where
the
aggregate
metrics
and
the
tooling
and
the
dashboards
and
community
reports
come
in
right.
H
F
I
was
just
gonna
say
that
I
think
that
that
that
guidebook
has
been
brought
up
before,
and
I
don't
remember
where,
but
maybe
it
was
in
the
community
meeting,
because
I
think
you're
absolutely
right.
I
think
that
that
is
what
we
need
in
order
to
enable
people
to
actually
put
these
in
practice.
So
I
just
wanted
to
say
that
we
should
keep
bringing
that
up
and
we
should
get
a
plan
to
like
make
that
happen
at
some
point.
H
Okay,
but
I
would
say
I
think
we
are,
we
are
doing
that
when
we
do
those
community
reports
and
when
we
create
the
badging
programs,
and
so
so,
maybe
maybe
we
need
to
think
about
a
value
report.
A
Yeah
yeah
first
first,
who
pays
you
or
like
first
question
yeah,
who
pays
for
your
work
and
then
you
will
provide
a
tool
cool
well,
this
very
fun
kickoff.
Thank
you
all
for
going
down
a
little
bit
of
memory
lane
over
a
pretty
chaotic
year.
I
unfortunately
can't
say
this
one
is
going
to
be
a
lot
clearer,
but
I
definitely
look
forward
to
continuing
these
conversations.
Steven
we
love
having
you.
Thank
you
for
bringing
your
perspective
and
kevin.
I'm
excited
that
you're
excited
about
this
academic
focus
area.
G
Kind
of
the
way
that
works
right,
I
think
I
think
it
is
the
way
that
works.
You
know
what
we're
saying
I
I
have
one
logistical
issue
in
that
sustained
academic
group
also
meets
every
other
thursday
in
this
time,
slot.
A
G
Thursday
afternoon
seemed
to
be
very
popular,
so
I'm
going
to
try
to
like
alternate
back
and
forth.
Is
that
cool
with
everybody
yeah?
That
makes
sense.
A
H
Well,
I
mean
we
could
contemplate
shifting
our
shifting
our
time
I
mean
it's,
not
a
it's,
not
unheard
of.
We,
we
do
move,
we've
moved
time
slots
before.
A
Agreed
yeah
this
time
slot
is
officially
occupied
going
forward
for
me
and
something
I
need
to
consider
as
well,
but
so
the
time
slot
needs
to
be.
Do
we.
G
H
So,
generally
speaking,
chaos
meetings
meet
between
9
00
a.m,
central
time
to
noon
central
time,
we're
not
limited
to
that.
We
can
go
elsewhere,
but
for
the
most
part,
that's
where
they
all
exist,
and
there
are
open
windows
within
that
that
time
period
during
the
week.