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From YouTube: CHAOSS Value Working Group 5-6-21
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A
Okay,
welcome
everyone.
Welcome
to
the
may
6
cures,
value
working
group
meeting.
Please
add
yourself
in
the
meeting
notes
and
tell
us
how
you're
feeling
or
anything
you
wanted
to
share.
I
have
pasted
the
minutes
in
the
chat
so
feel
free
to
add.
A
B
I
think
we
can.
We
can
either
wait
until
we
have
a
few
more
people,
but
I
don't
know
if
everyone
understands
the
context
around
that
or
not
yeah.
A
I
don't
think
so,
so
the
context
was
like:
we
need
to
have
two
person
from
the
each
working
group
who
represents
the
working
group
for
any
queries,
contacts
or
any
other
things
so
like
it
was
decided
that
those
two
people
will
be
the
contact
person
or
even
maintainer
for
the
and
response
to
all
the
communication
and
everything
for
that
working
group.
So
if
one
is
not
available,
the
other
can
respond.
That's
what
was
decided
in
the
journal
meeting.
C
That
yeah
I'm
spread
a
little
thin
these
days
to
be
able
to
be
a
chair
perhaps
next
year.
I
also
don't
feel
like
I've
got
enough
experience
with
the
group
yet,
but
it's
primarily
just
about
not
having
the
cycles.
D
E
E
A
A
C
Yeah,
so
I
dumped
a
link
into
the
under
the.
What
are
the
pain
points
for
academic
faculty?
C
That
link
in
the
notes
now
the
first
half
of
this
document
is
stuff
that
I
distributed
before
the
meeting
group
for
the
birds
of
the
feather
group.
In
case
people
wanted
to
look
up
at
stuff.
C
C
I
think
I
think
everybody
wants
to
see
more
and
nobody
knows
where
to
start
right.
Okay,
everyone
acknowledges
the
problem,
no
one
knows
how
to
fix
it
and
so,
but
then
again.
C
Well,
it's
a
a
new
problem
for
people
who
are
doing
software
in
these
other
areas.
These
other
disciplines,
you
know
the
mechanisms
for
open
science
like
center
for
open
science,
have
only
really
been
gaming
gaining
steam
in
the
past
seven
or
eight
years
or
so,
and
it
looks
like
you
know,
it
looks
like
in
some
places,
they're
being
really
proactive
on
the
need
to
be
able
to
find
other
ways
to
do
this
stuff.
C
There
was
also
you
know
if
I
can
find
it
today,
I
just
dumped
it
in
a
bunch
of
different
slack
conversations,
there's
a
really
good
piece
going
around
on
how
the
the
journal
for
open
science
got
started
and
it's
sorry
general
for
open,
open
source
software,
I'm
just
going
to
copy
that
and
drop
that
into
the
chat
there.
A
C
Like
abstract
gets
published
our
abstracts
about
the
software
and
then
links
to
the
software
itself,
and
they
they
peer
review
all
of
the
stuff
around
the
software.
They
don't
dive
deep
into
the
code
to
peer
review
it,
but
their
peer
review,
all
the
artifacts
around
it
like
the
documentation
and
stuff.
C
Yeah
but
things
are
gonna
got
caught
called
out
of
the
discussion
or
you
know
the
challenges
of
you
get
some
points,
sometimes
for
making
a
thing,
but
not
for
maintaining
it
or
extending
it
or
any
of
those
things.
It's
hard
to
get
recognition
for
that
yeah.
The
publication
of
an
r
package
being
off
a
publication
was
a
topic
of
much
discussion
in
the
you
know,
10
to
15
people
who
rolled
in
and
out
of
the
discussion
over
the
hour.
B
Stephen,
I'm
curious
do
so
at
this.
This
birds
bird's-eye
feather.
Were
there
any
people
at
the
university
that
actually
make
those
decisions.
C
B
C
The
people
who
make
those
decisions-
I
mean
at
least
running
from
an
example
of
one
which
is
my
university,
but
I'm
I'm
pretty
sure
when
I
we
don't
do
anything
innovative
right.
It's
the
university
policy
level,
there's
a
university
policy
that
says
there
should
be
a
reasonable
and
defendable
process
for
giving
people
tenure
and
promotion,
and
the
colleges
will
decide
what
that
is
based
on
their
own
stuff
right
then.
C
So
each
college
picks
its
metric
and
you
know
the
default.
Is
you
have
to
have
x
number
of
publications
or
presentations
in
this
short
list
of
publications
and
conferences,
because
they're
the
leading
ones
right?
That
is
the
the
lazy
metric
that
mostly
gets
used,
and
then
those
will
vary
place
to
place
and
then,
in
our
case,
within
my
own
academic
unit,
since
there
are
no
really.
C
B
C
Them,
and
so
we
had
working
in
conversations
with
our
former
provost
and
former
dean
over
the
better
part
of
a
year.
We
came
up
with
essentially
a
writer
that
travels
with
our
faculty
when
they
go
to
tenure
promotion.
That
says,
you
know,
we
don't
do
this
stuff
right.
C
The
stuff
we
do
is
different
than
standard
computer
science,
and
here
here's
how
here's
the
places
we
get
our
stuff
published
or
our
conferences
and
how
here's,
how
we
judge
impact-
and
you
know
yes,
this
conference
is
an
industry
conference,
but
its
acceptance
rate
is
about
20
percent
of
what
gets
submitted.
It's
that
kind
of
stuff
right,
and
so
you
know
I
threw
a
bunch
of
these
things
in
here
at
the
top
is
including
our
metric
people
looked
at
it.
C
I
couldn't
get
a
lot
of
discussion
drilled
down
on
that,
because
everybody
was
still
very
high
level
in
terms
of
what
their
concerns
were.
I
mean
the
fact
that
some
people
were
trying
to
do
things
right
was
was
of
interest.
I
only
found
out
about
that
number
two
under
quick
reads:
the
association
for
psychological
sciences.
C
C
The
mla
thing
I've
known
about
for
a
long
time.
The
leiden
thing
was
was
new
to
me
when
I
was
starting
to
look
around
for
stuff
and
the
github
article
was
kind
of
a
new
thing
to
me
as
well
that
just
I
was
just
aware
of,
as
I
started,
trying
to
nail
this
stuff
down
for
myself,
so
at
that
policy
level
right,
since
the
university
won't
dictate
policy.
What
I'll
end
up.
C
Having
do,
I
think,
in
our
case,
at
rit
is
publish
these
kinds
of
guidelines
like
we
have
in
three
and
four
looking
at
a
bunch
of
these
things
that
are
listed
in
the
quick
reads
and
other
things
I
can
find.
C
I
think
the
best
I'll
be
able
to
do
is
to
get
to
have
my
group
publish
our
own
best
practices
and
guidelines
for
either
promoting
your
work
or
evaluating
other
people's
work.
If
you're
on
the
committee
and
then
trotted
around
to
various
institutional
committees
on
campus,
who
can
give
it
a
kind
of
good
housekeeping
seal
of
approval,
but
they
think
it's
a
good
thing
for
faculty
to
look
at
and
committees
to
look
at
as
this
process
moves.
C
And
I
think
last
time
I
pointed
to
these
larger
kind
of
faculty
work,
capturing
systems
that
rit
was
looking
at
and
hopefully
we'll
be
able
to
use
our
our
instances
of
the
chaos
software
and
the
the
osf
software
to
kind
of
funnel
into
that
larger
promotion
system.
If
the
university
is
going
to
hop
onto
getting
one
of
those.
A
Yeah,
okay,
so
then
I
would
say
it's
the
best
time
we
have
one
metric.
We
can
work
on
it
a
little
bit
and
define
it.
C
C
Overall,
in
terms
of
making
sure
that
we're
just
that
the
university
is
becoming
the
university
writ
large
right
is
becoming
too
metrics.
Driven
that
there's
not
a
lot
of
contextual
evaluation
being
done.
E
C
C
B
I'm
gonna
add
some
of
these
links
as
as
references
in
the
metric.
If
that's
okay,.
C
C
G
A
So
maybe
I
would
propose-
and
we
should
go
to
this
rpt
metric
and
start
working
on
it.
E
E
H
E
E
E
Oh
stephen,
when
it
comes
to
the
open
source
piece
too,
I
think
recognizing
software
as
an
asset
to
consider
in
a
tenure
and
promotion
case
is
a
problem
that
extends
beyond
the
scope
of
open
source.
I
know
I
spent
about
seven
years
of
my
career,
doing
research
on
video
games
for
learning,
and
there
was
a
lot
of
software
developed.
E
It
was
quite
expensive
and
but
we
kept
the
pi
who's
a
formal
apple
person
with
a
lot
of
accomplishments
behind
him
really
preferred
to
keep
things
closed
because
he
would
always
go
to
the
university's
commercialization
office
and
he's
we've
had
a
couple
of
games
that
have
actually
gone
to
commercial
distribution,
that
you
know
I
get
11
a
year
or
something
for,
but
it's
the
same
problem.
It's
it's
how
to
work.
Getting
that
recognized
is
the
same
problem
as
getting
open
source
recognizing.
So
I
don't.
I
C
C
B
E
As
long
as
the
screen
share
is
active,
okay,
in
this
case
I
don't
know
people
can
people
know
how
to
run
podcasts
at
like
three
times
speed
now.
G
E
B
B
Yeah,
like
oh
okay,
I'm
I'm
just
looking
at
the
project,
popularity,
metrics
and
looking
at
the
rpt
metric.
I
was
not
looking
at
that
article
at
that
moment,.
B
And
when
I
was
looking
at
the
alt
metrics,
it.
B
E
B
B
E
B
H
E
E
So
the
what
the
way
I
I
guess,
I'm
thinking
of
this
as
open
source
software
is
one
family
of
artifacts.
I
think
tape.
You
know
tipping
our
hat
to
the
altmetrics
community
that
looks
at
both
open
source
and
proprietary.
Software's
academic
contribution
doesn't
hurt
our
case.
I
think
you
know.
I
guess
I
think.
Maybe
we
just
be
clear
that
we
are
developing
metrics
for
open
source
software,
health
and
sustainability.
A
E
C
E
D
E
D
E
A
gentleman
at
stanford
named
jeffrey
allman,
who
won
a
touring
prize
in
computer
science
and
when
I
saw
the
headline
and
but
he's
also
very
racist
ouch,
and
I
saw
the
headline
across
my
desk
and
I
have
a
colleague
in
my
computer
science
department,
whose
name
is
jeffrey
allman,
but
it's
not
that
jeffrey
allman.
E
J
A
J
Oh
sorry,
sorry
to
interrupt.
I
know
I'm
late
to
the
game
here,
but
I
don't.
J
I
don't
understand
how
the
name
of
this
metric
relates
to
what
we're
measuring
so
are.
We
are
we
measuring
the
reappointment,
the
tenure
and
the
promotion.
C
J
J
This
impact
factor
is
usually
applied
to
papers
right
studies,
yep,
but
I
do
know
one
of
the
one
of
the
potential
metrics
we
have
in
our
list
is
actually
impact
factor.
C
J
Yeah,
I
think
this
is
impact
factor
that
we're
working
on
and
then
the
the
reappointment
tenure
and
promotion
that
I
think
fits
down
in
the
description
or
the
objective
pro
more.
So
the
objective.
J
Maybe
that's,
maybe
that's
just
a
short
paragraph
saying
that
the
the
impact
factor
is
an
important
metric
for
for
academics,
because
it
helps
them
because
it
can
help
them
well,
we
we
would
like
it
to
help
them
get
tenure.
J
It
doesn't
now.
I
suppose,
for
software.
J
J
And
that's
that's
all.
I
had
sorry
I'll
be
quiet
now.
C
C
K
Both
worlds
because
rpp
rpp
packages.
E
Like
impact
of
being
tenured,
no,
no,
I
know
our
rtp
is,
I
didn't
know
what
rpp
was.
Oh
did
I
say
rpp
I
heard
rpp
kevin,
but
sometimes
I
hear
what
I
want
to
hear
at
least
they're,
not
rpgs.
Okay,.
C
Speaking
of
which,
in
my
other
life
as
a
game,
professor,
the
strong
museum
is
currently
announcing
its
annual
inductees
for
the
world
video
game
hall
of
fame.
For
those
of
you
with
an
interest
in
that
here,.
E
I
visited
the
video
game
museum
in
temporary
finland
a
number
of
years
ago.
That
was
one
of
the
coolest
museums.
I've
ever
been
in
yeah.
C
Damn
they
I,
I
know
a
couple
of
people
on
the
board
of
that
they
just
opened
it
up.
Did
you
ever
make
it
to
rochester?
You
can
get
a
behind-the-scenes
tour
of
the
strong
invited
me.
C
Get
a
behind
the
scenes:
tour
of
the
the
strong
national
museum
of
play,
the
largest
entity
and
collections
of
board
games;
toys,
dolls,
video
games.
E
E
So
yeah
I
actually
have
a
colleague
who's
at
rit
liz
lolly.
Do
you
know
her.
E
E
C
C
We've
been
doing
for
usf
under
contracts
and
then
when
he
graduated,
they
hired
him
to
do
it
full-time.
C
C
E
C
C
I
mean
at
the
chaos
level
we're
looking
at
open
source
software
but,
as
sean
said,
there's
impact
for
software's
research
in
general.
There's
also
the
potential
for
having
similar
stuff
around
open
data
and
oers,
and
the
open
science
stuff
which
gets
cracked
by
osf,
but
not
quite
in
this
context
right
the
reasons
why
we
wanted
to
bring
the
osf
stuff
start
playing
importing
into
the
grimoire
instance.
We
have
to
start
seeing
how
we
can
bring
both
of
those
together
to
try
to
start
getting
more
data
than
just
sheer
numbers
on
on
the
open
science
stuff.
A
J
So
this
is
going
to
be
a.
This
is
not
an
atomic
metric
right,
so
this
is
a
collection
of
metrics
that
will
make
up
impact
factor
and
is
there?
Is
there
a
way
of
calculating
this
currently.
C
H
and
that's
right,
so
you
know,
depending
on
who
you
are
in
academia,
you
love
or
you
hate
the
h
index.
E
C
Right
so
there's
age
index
which
only
works
for
peer-reviewed
journals.
You
know
a
lot
of
it's
driven
by
a
little
scholar.
E
Well,
yeah,
though
I
mean
google
scholar
is
more
inclusive
than
like
your
thompson
ranking,
so
the.
E
That's
that
quality
that
impact
factor
is
like
translated
into
a
quality
measure
that
tenure
and
promotion
committees
use
to
determine
if
all
of
your
papers
and
academic
scholarly
products
are
valuable.
So
if
you
don't
have
publications
in
high
impact
factor
journals,
your
30
publications
are
less
valuable
than
someone
whose
30
publications
are
in
nature.
E
J
E
E
E
J
A
J
Yes,
number
of
citations
probably
needs
to
be
added
to
that
filter.
Yes,
but
that
might
but
then,
but
my
further
point
was
so:
each
of
these
metrics
has
some
definition
they
so
it
need.
They
need
to
have
some
definition
or
they
need
to
be
defined
and,
as
you
said,
a
lot
of
them
are
probably
already
defined,
so
we
we
should
link
to
them
where
they're
defined
in
in
our
in
our
other
working
groups,
but
the
impact
factor
itself.
J
Is
there
some
sort
of
calculation
where,
because
the
h
index
and
the
impact
factor
in
academia
is
usually
a
number
right,
it's
usually,
this
is
we're
just
giving
you
a
number
it's
an
impact
factor,
so
is
there?
Is
there
some
way
that
we
have
of
of
calculating
this
and
and
giving
a
number?
Or
is
this
just
a
hey,
look
at
impact
factor?
J
C
C
Otherwise
it's
as
if
I've
done
nothing
right,
and
the
answer
is
obvious
that
well,
you
know
there
are
lots
of
different
ways
to
figure
out
how
things
work
outside
of
the
journal
articles
at
this
point,
and
why
aren't
we
finding
ways
to
give
people
credit
for
that
work
or
to
help
people
outside
of
their
discipline?
Understand
the
value
and
the
impact.
C
A
E
My
only
my
only
thought
was,
I
think
this
metric
is
about
how
credit
how
like
it's
almost
it
is
the
h
index
in
a
sense,
because
I
know
I'm
always
allowed
to
indicate
that
software
products
are
scholarly
output
and
what
I,
what
I
don't
have
is
any
accepted
measure
of
how
impactful
those
projects
are.
I
mean
I've
probably
turned
in
50
software
products.
As
can
you
know
evidence
of
scholarly
contribution
and
whatever
the
impact
is.
E
Is
it
kind
of
is
idiosyncratic
to
the
organization
and
the
department
and
the
point
in
time
that
I
am
claiming
that
credit
and,
and
so
if
there
was
some,
I
don't
want
to
say
objective,
because
that's
a
weighted
loaded
word,
but
there's
some
indicator
that
project
x,
like,
for
example,
auger,
is
probably
the
most
significant
impact
of
any
other
than
maybe
the
games
for
learning
stuff.
It's
certainly
the
most.