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From YouTube: CHAOSS Value Working Group 10-21-21
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C
Welcome
to
the
value
working
group
on
october
21st,
please
add
yourself
in
the
meeting.
C
D
D
Yes,
yes,
all
right
so
actually
jacob's
here
and
he
this
is
so
we're
trying
to
find
points
of
connection
between
the
chaos
project
and
ospo
plus
plus,
which
is
the
work
that
that
jacob
is
heavily
involved
in
and
so
essentially
ospo
plus
plus
is
really
about
focusing
on,
and
you
can
correct
me
if
I'm
wrong
but
focusing
on
the
development
of
open
source
program
offices
within
the
scientific
and
academic
space,
and
there
have
been
a
number
of
universities
that
have
already
participated
or
like
kind
of
advanced
this
work-
and
I
know
that
on
the
horizon,
there
are
others
who
are
also
others,
meaning
universities
who
are
expressing
interest
in
developing
open
source
program
offices
and
there's
a
community
of
people
that
have
an
interest
in
this
space
and
so
the
chaos
project.
D
And
that's
where
chaos
comes
in
so
through
our
tooling,
whether
it's
auger
or
gramor
lab
and
our
set
of
metrics
to
really
provide
the
ospos
kind
of
when
they're
looking
around
and
saying
what
are
the
things
that
are
available
to
me
as
an
organization
to
really
help
to
understand
the
impact
in
this
space
what's
available
and
that's
where
chaos
can
come
in,
so
I
think
chaos
kind
of
would
represent.
Maybe
one
layer
of
the
many
layers
that
ospo
plus
plus
is
doing
so.
D
There
are
many
things
like
ospo,
plus
plus
has
to
do
a
lot
with
probably
political
structures
within
universities.
That's
not
something
we
do.
Hospital
plus
plus
has
to
think
about
kind
of
the
arrangement
of
work
within
an
ospo
at
a
university.
Again,
that's
not
something
we
do,
but
when
the
question
arises
as
to
what
are
the
the
tools
and
ways
that
we
can
gain
a
better
understanding
of
how
our
academics
are
participating
in
this
world,
that's
where
we
come
in
jacob.
Did
you
want
to
add
anything
to
that?
E
And
just
in
general,
the
higher
level
construct
is
is
the
idea
of
institutionalizing
open
source.
You
know
we
have
lots
of
various
different
avenues
for
open
source
engagement,
with
open
with
you,
with
universities
in
general,
but
we
don't
have
a
single
a
home
for
it
within
the
university
context.
We
don't
have
the
office
of
open
source,
and
so
that's
what
we're
really
trying
to
kind
of
kind
of
build.
E
I
think
part
of
the
the
value
of
that
has
has
been
when
we're
talking
to
upper
levels
of
the
administration,
etc
is
really
to
they're
looking
to
satisfy
their
their
mission
goals,
whether
that
be
internal
mission
goals,
external
engagement
mission
goals
or
the
system.
The
academic
system
that
they're
in
though
any
any
one
of
those
aspects,
is
going
to
touch
on
metrics.
E
However,
in
order
to
being
able
to
justify
and
being
able
to
show
progress
so
for
as
a
you
know,
case
in
point
building
the
open
source
program
office
at
johns
hopkins
metrics
were
used
very
extensively
in
terms
of
the
the
promise
of
metrics
to
be
able
to
to
sell
why
this
office
is
important,
even
if
we
haven't
actually
gone
into
the
operational
step
of
of
collecting
what
what
those
metrics
are.
So
even
at
this
very
beginning,
in
the
formative
stages
of
ospos
metrics
are
really
important
for
people
to
understand.
E
You
know
what
what
what
potentially
we
can
do
with
them
for
ospos
for
the
institutionalization
of
open
source
in
order
not
just
like
the
nuts
and
bolts
of
how
do
we
do
it?
What
you
know
what
actual
metric-
and
you
know
digging
deep
into
the
operations
of
collecting
the
metrics
at
a
top
level?
It
it's
really
important
as
well.
I
can't
I
really
can't
stress
that
enough.
C
To
this
I
feel
like
so,
the
question
is
coming
like
why
why
we
need
hospital,
how
we
can
justify
our
school
and
like
looking
at
this
and
how
we
can
advance
hospital
in
these?
So
answering
those
questions,
we
need
some
metric
that
can
give
us
a
justification
for
the
management
or
for
the
governing
body
or
something
like
that.
E
Both
justification
and
but
also
value
proposition,
I
would
say,
okay,
so
if
we
go
back
to,
why
is
open
source
important
at
a
university
context?
E
E
Certain
one
of
those
certain,
if
we're
talking
about
building
an
open
source
program
office,
we
typically
are
going
at
the
higher
levels
of
up
in
that
kind
of
stack
in
terms
of
the
justification
right.
So
it's
really
about
both
the
justification
and
also
kind
of
what
is
the
value
proposition.
E
So,
for
example,
the
way
the
provost
level
at
johns
hopkins
started
to
understand.
The
value
of
open
source
was
through
the
the
idea
that
the
code
being
produced
by
the
university
out
of
research
is
actually
a
primary
research
data
output
and
when
you
frame.
B
E
E
Okay,
we
need.
We
need
an
open
source
program
office
for,
in
this
context,
to
help
support
valid
and
appropriate
output
of
code.
What
license
does
it
choose?
Do
it?
How
do
we
do
translation
all
all
those
other
stuff,
but
you
you
frame
it
as
a
primary
research
output.
Just
like
any
other
company
is
outputting
product.
You
want
to
make
sure
that
product
is
the
best
it
can
be
so
getting
a
handle
on
open
source
for
the
code
portion
of
that
becomes
really
important
to
the
total
output
of
the
research
endeavor.
E
E
D
Oh
yeah,
but
it's
important
that
we
probably
listen
to
a
whole
bunch
of
people
kind
of
like
what
we
always
do
in
the
chaos
project.
Listen
to
a
bunch
of
people
as
to
what
some
of
these
models
could
be,
and
so
jacob
is
proposing.
I
think,
there's
kind
of
what
would
what
could
be
a
kickoff
presentation
in
an
ospo
plus
plus
meeting
which
is
coming
up
when
jacob,
so
that.
E
We
originally
had
scheduled
it
for
november
18th.
We
wanted
to
get
daniel
from
patergia
on
and
there's
an
intersource
co
commons
summit
that
same
day.
So
one
of
the
things
I
wanted
to
do
on
this
call
was
to
see
if
there
was
a
better
day
that
might
work,
but
in
general,
we're
looking
for
it
november.
D
Okay,
when
is
the
regular
cadence
for
those
meetings
I
mean,
would
it
be?
Is
it
thursdays,
if
I
recall,
yeah,.
E
We
try
to
do
it
at
thursdays
at
noon,
eastern
okay,
but
we
do
have
some
flexibility
on
that.
Okay,.
D
So,
let's
see
and
sean
is
also
like.
A
Working
with
the
scientific
community,
yeah.
A
Draw
on
this
as
well
yeah
like
we
could,
we
could
put
together
some
sample
metrics
models
for
you
as
a
demonstration,
if
you
have
a
set
of
projects
that
you
want
to
work
with,
it'd
probably
be
a
pretty
good
idea.
Just
in
terms
of
like
exceeding
the
conversation,
yeah,
people
really
are
able
to
respond
better
to
concrete
metrics
representations.
A
A
D
E
There's
the
proposed
event
schedule
so,
on
november
8th
we
were
looking
because
oscar
plus
plus
is
only
meeting
once
a
month
these
days
on
the
academic
side,
because
we
spun
up
a
european
one
for
governments
and
agents
and
agencies.
E
E
You
know
how
we
would
work
as
a
community
to
implement
some
of
these
things,
so
we
wanted
to
break
it
up
into
the
following
and
if
you're
following
along
in
the
document,
a
little
bit
start
off
with
the
general
landscape
of
what
metrics
are
matt,
we
wanted
to
see
if
you
you
and
sean
could
outline
that
from
a
little
bit
of
your
long
history
in
the
space
just
in
terms
of
showing
what
metrics
are
for
for
code
open
source
in
general,
then
I
wanted
to
go
into
a
specific
implementation
of
that,
which
is
around
the
community
aspect
of
that
and
have
don
foster,
and
richard
have
a
discussion
about
that.
E
Then,
going
into
a
specific
in
terms
of
introducing
daniel
to
tie
metrics
to
osbos
he's
been
doing
a
lot
of
work
on
that,
and
he
does.
He
had
a
great
presentation
in
london
a
few
weeks
ago
that
I
thought
really
really
hit
the
nail
on
the
head,
and
then
steven,
jacobs
and
rit
have
been
doing
a
lot
of
work
with
mystic
around.
E
It
really
then
expanding
this
into
a
specific
implementation
to
help
to
help
support
academic
space,
and
I
understand
that
they
did
a
great
presentation
at
kscon
that
that
went
off
really
well
was
well
received
for
emmy
and
stephen,
so
that
was
kind
of
the
you
know,
10
minutes
kind
of
each
at
the
start,
and
then
at
the
top,
and
then
this
whole
block
together
would
be
an
introductory
thing,
introducing
the
whole
space
for
metrics,
open
source
and
ospos
for
anyone
that
wanted
to
come
later
and
get
more
information
on
it.
E
So
that's
that's
what
this
session
itself
would
be.
The
follow-up
subsequent
session
is,
then,
how
do
we
is
more
the
community-oriented
side
of
things
and
saying?
What
can
can
our
two
groups
do
together?
Setting
up
a
specific
workshop
or
two
around
that
to
help
get
metric
models
for
you
guys
we're
launching
a
project
also
around
mapping
the
interface
between
open
source
and
the
the
open
source
world
in
general
and
academia
and
that's
another
area
where
we
might
bringing
metrics.
I
talked
to
gay
org
about
that
this
week
in
raleigh.
D
Can
I
make
that's,
I
mean
it
sounds
good.
Can
I
make
a
comment
on
the
agenda
that
you
shared
absolutely
yeah,
so
one
so
sean
okay?
So
from
a
software
perspective,
if
we're
gonna
have
the
connection
with
chaos,
but
tergia
is
actually
a
for-profit
company
and
the
software
is
gremore
lab,
and
I
would
that
distinction.
I
think,
is
important
for
this,
because
I
don't,
I
don't
want
to
have
the
community
necessarily,
but
it's
yeah
promoting
a
particular
piece,
a
particular
for-profit
organization
yeah,
and
I
think
it
would
be
helpful
to
present
auger.
E
Would
that's
10
20,
30,
40,
50.
E
The
only
reason
I
wanted
to
bring
in
daniel
on
this
because
daniel
has
a
really
good
way
of
connecting
metrics
to
ospos,
and
we
have
a
case
in
point
where
universities
have
the
first
thing
we
did
at
the
hopkins.
One
was
engage
peturgia
because
at
the
end
of
the
day,
someone
actually
has
to
go,
do
the
work,
and
so
this
was
a
you
know.
E
C
D
A
Yeah
daniel's
definitely
got
a
good
knowledge
of
inner
source
concerns
generally
and
has
been
active
in
that
community.
So
I
think
that's
a
that's
a
value
that
he
adds
to
it.
D
A
D
So
then
dawn
and
richard
would
be
chaos
community
in
the
sustained
community.
D
A
A
I
think
there's
not
a
clear
division
between
metrics
themselves
and
the
software
that
builds
them
and,
like
there's
a
landscape,
I
guess
I'm
trying
I'm
struggling
to
figure
out
what
the
landscape
discussion
is
for
an
audience
unfamiliar
with
metrics,
because
I
do
think
they'll
respond
better
to
concrete
implementations.
A
D
D
E
A
E
E
And
the
second
thing,
which
is
one
of
the
endeavors
the
ospo
is
going
to
do
with
in
academia,
is
apply
metrics
to
large
amounts
of
academic
code
and
spaces
in
this
project.
It
is
a
tool,
that's
where
sean's
work,
you
know,
and
you
can
talk
about
a
lot
of
the
work
you've
done
in
that
process.
So
it's
two
two
uses
of
metrics
one
is
to
justify
the
ospo,
the
actual
operations
of
it,
and
then
the
other
is
actually
as
a
tool.
How
can
you
be
more
effective
in
what
the
ospo's
gonna
do.
E
A
I
always
say
metric,
I
would
say
more,
like
metrics
directed
for
the
academic
and
scientific
enterprise,
but
okay,
because
it's
it's,
it's
really
not
about
performing
work.
I
think
it's
about
the
close
connection
between
the
development
of
software
and
the
conductive
con
conducting
of
research,
particularly
in
the
life
sciences,
they're
almost
inextricable
at
this
point-
and
we
have
a
good
deal
of
anecdotal
and
metrics-based
evidence
to
illustrate
that.
D
D
D
And
so
then
sean,
I
think
instead,
I
think,
even
just
like
bringing
any
of
the
work
that
you've
done
on
any
of
the
scientific
repositories
would
be
enough.
It'd
be
enough
without
asking
ahead
of
time.
Here's
one
oh
yeah,
for
example,
yeah
these
projects
are
all
projects
that
people
are
familiar
with.
Yeah.
D
D
It
was
really
actually
it's
interesting,
because
I
hadn't
really
thought
about
point
four
metrics
that
helped
the
ospos
justify
themselves,
because
I
had
always
just
been
on
point
five
that
at
some
point
yeah,
the
the
university
is
gonna
care
and
the
faculty
are
gonna
care.
If
somebody's
looking
at
their
work
to
metric.
That.
A
A
Richard
with
with
person
on
the
call
who's
mosslabs.io,
his
name
is
escaping
me,
jacob
right.
A
A
A
Yeah
yeah,
because
I
think
I
think
that
that
kind,
those
concrete
examples
that
I'll
illustrate
will
help
to
help
to
draw
the
connection
between
the
tech
transfer
objectives
that
a
lot
of
universities
have
and
and
metrics
like
they'll
draw.
That
line
pretty
clearly
agreed.
I
totally
agreed.
I
totally
agree.
D
A
C
Cool
so
may
so,
maybe
then
here
we
will
develop
the
metrics
on
those
areas
that
will
support
the
ospose,
like
on
justifying
the
osco
and
metrics
for
the
catholic
scientists.
D
Yes,
so
I
think
this
first
talk
is
just
kind
of
saying:
hey.
Here's
here
are
the
things
that
you
need
to
care
about
end
of
conversation,
and
then
we
have
a
follow-up
work,
a
follow-up
workshop
that
says:
okay.
Now
we
can.
We
convince
you
or
talked
about
why
you
care,
let's
talk
about
the
actual
models
that
you
would
need
for
points
4
and
0.5
right
like
what
are
the
things
that
you
actually
need
to
look
at.
E
D
E
One
of
the
things
that
I
was
discussing
with
georg
this
this
week
was
the
idea,
though,
that
ospos
are,
are
a
slow.
E
It's
it's
slow
to
build
osmos.
This
is
not
a
a
quick
thing
that
you
just
hey,
build
an
ospo
and
30
of
them
built
in
osbo.
This
is
culture
change.
This
is
setting
up
an
organization
in
you
know
in
the
university
justif
the
justification
getting
head
count.
All
of
that
that's
a
significant
lift
per
each
one.
E
So
if
there's
a
there's
a
lag
in
this
one
of
the
things
we
may
want
to
do,
because
I
think
we
are
at
the
right
point
on
in
history
and
in
the
momentum
of
this
is
to
see
if
we
can't
get
some
more
activity
going
at
the
intersection
between
academia
and
the
open
source
world,
and
so
one
of
the
things
I
wanted
to
explore
is
what
are
the
metrics
models
for
just
even
understanding
the
interaction
between
the
open
source
communities
in
general
and
and
academia?
E
That
map
is
missing,
we
don't
have
it.
No
one
has
that
in
the
world.
You
know
what
what
are
the
interface
points
for
the
python
foundation?
What
universities
and
researchers
do
they
engage
in
everybody's
using
python?
No,
no.
I
know
but
like
from
from
a
more
structured
point
of
view,
what
about
the
our
community?
What
about
for
the
such
and
such
community?
What
about
for
the
you
know
we're
and
that
that'll
be
a
continually
and
growing
thing,
but
right
now
we're
operating
in
the
dark
yeah
to
some
degree.
E
We
were
also
looking
at
okay
from
a
university
point
of
view.
What
what
engagement
points
does
that
university
have
in
open
source
communities?
We
can
also
ask
it
from
the
opposite
direction
of
your.
You
have
open
source
communities.
How
are
they
engaging
with
open
source,
and
it's
that
bi-directional
mapping
doesn't
have
to
be
very
deep,
but
that
mapping
even
a
project
to
do
that
as
a
community-based
project
would
activate
a
lot
of
folks
in
the
open
source
world,
as
well
as
academia
to
just
start
mapping
this
out.
E
That
is
what
we're
going
to
tease
up
and
potentially
talk
about.
So
one
of
the
things
I
want
to
I
want
to
have
set
up,
and
I
want
to
talk
to
sloan
before
we
launch.
This
is
to
say
great:
we've
done
this
overview
now
of
metrics,
but
now
what
is
the
community
actions
that
we're
gonna?
Do,
for
example,
the
work,
those
two
workshops
in
order
to
get
the
metrics
models?
A
third
one
is
this
idea
of
mapping
the
this
interface
between
open
source
and
and
and
academia,
and
that
also
touches
that
metric.
E
So
I
think,
there's
really
three
workshops
coming
out
of
this
and
next
steps
that
are
community-based,
sean.
A
We
certainly
could
I
mean
the
challenge.
The
challenge
with
academics
is
that
they
don't
always
use
their
edu
domains.
Oh
look
at
me
yeah.
I
mean
I'm
only
on
gmail
right,
so
it's
it's
knowing
who
your
researchers
are,
and
so
the
way
that
we've
teased
that
out
is
we
look
at
not
only
the
projects
that
are
in
the
scope,
but
we
look
at
the
other
projects
that
someone
has
contributed
to,
and
that
gives
us
a
pretty
decent
insight
into
whether
they're
focused
in
a
scientific
domain
or
a
corporate
domain.
D
So
my
one
might
I
don't
deny
that
that
third
workshop
would
be
interesting,
so
the
first
two
workshops
in
the
chaos
project.
We
have
the
capacity
and
it
takes
time,
but
we
have
the
capacity
to
build
out
metrics
and
build
out
metrics
models
kind
of
following
the
approach
that
we've
been
doing
for
years.
So
that's
that's
within
our
capacity
wheelhouse.
D
E
Two
yeah:
I'm
not
looking
for
you
guys
to
take
that
on
I'm
just
saying
the
purpose
of
this
session
is
to
introduce
metrics.
The
output
of
this
session
is
going
to
be
hey.
We're
going
to
have
these
two
workshops
to
help
the
chaos
community,
get
get
metrics
models,
and
another
output
of
this
is
introducing
this
mapping
because
we're
blind
to
this
blind
to
this
interface,
and
we
want
to
do
this
not
as
an
plus
plus
specific
thing,
but
as
a
general
thing
for
the
broader
community,
lots
of
different
parties
are
interested
in
this
mapping.
D
This,
no,
I
didn't
think
I
didn't
think
you
were
kicking
it
to
us.
I
was
just
thinking
like
in
terms
of
resourcing
like
like
the
first
two
I
think
are
well
within
the
ospo.
I
don't
know
about
your
resourcing,
but
well,
within
the
ospo
plus
plus
resourcing,
and
the
chaos
resourcing
like
that.
Those
first
two
workshops
slot
right
in
the
third.
E
E
D
Yeah
no,
and
I
can
see
why
communities
would
want
to
know
that
yeah,
because
the
resourcing
models
out
of
universities
are
different
than
volunteers
and
from
for-profit
companies
they're
all
the
angles
that
people
come
in
are
slightly
different
and
like
not
having
any
light
on.
D
Perhaps
20
of
your
community
as
being
from
from
from
the
academic
space.
You
could,
you
might
be
missing
something,
or
that
would
I
think
that
would
be
interesting.
So
I
think
that's,
I
think
it's
fair
yeah
and
then
also.
E
B
E
A
I
think
I
think
we're
university
people
who
are
interested
in
tech
transfer
will
have
their
eyebrows
raised
is
when
they
realize
how
much
their
scientists
are
contributing
to
open
source
software
and
that
that's
kind
of
an
invisible
work
or
an
invisible
intellectual
accomplishment
inside
their
institutions.
E
Agreed,
okay:
this
is
good
all
right,
I'll
start
to
work
on
on
this
I'll,
get
you
back
in
in
by
monday
at
the
latest,
with
a
with
a
firm
date.
Thank
you
very
much.
Is
there
anything
else
you
guys
need
for
me?
No,
that
was.
E
Well,
look
forward
to
work
we're
working
with
you
guys,
then
I'm
going
to
drop
and
take
care
of
a
few
other
things
all
right
all
right.
Thank
you
cheers
guys
bye,
cheers.
D
D
Point
of
connection
between
ospo
plus
plus,
because
I
I
just
even.
D
A
C
That's
good,
yeah,
productive,
so
then,
on
the
developing
matrix.
What
is
the
roadmap
for
the
camera
once
you're
done
with
this
meeting
and
we'll.
D
Just
wait
for
that:
we'll,
listen,
we'll
just
wait
for
what
comes
out
of
the
meetings,
I
think,
is
the
next
series
of
steps.
Okay,
so
I
did
have
one
thing.
I
know
that
sean
and
elizabeth
you
were
both
on
the
community
call,
but
two
things
that
I
think
I
wanted
to
bring
forward
to
the
value
working
group
as
we
continue
to
meet
one
is
in
an
effort
to
kind
of
increase
our
mentorship,
as
as
we
have
new
people
joining
our
working
groups.
D
D
That's
due
in
two
weeks-
and
I
really
like
that
idea
and
then
the
other
thing
is
maybe
in
the
value
working
group,
obviously
not
today,
but
I
think
sean
are
you
doing
this
in
evolution
like
how
we're
supposed
to
revisit
some
of
our
metrics
from
prior
releases,
yeah
kevin's.
A
Been
going
around
waving.