CHAOSS Value Working Group, 13 Sep 2019

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From YouTube: CHAOSS.Value.September.13.2019

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CHAOSS.Value.September.13.2019

A

So hey everyone to our kills value working group. We already spend 15 minutes talking so now we're starting the recording, and so that is sustain OSS. The other one that comes to mind is open. Collector.

A

Open collective is providing a platform for projects to collect donations and so conference tickets and have a public, Budget and Finance cool. So they tip you can add the project. You can go to open collective and have a transparent organization, including transparent financial flows. How.

B

Is it different from the one we are using to Linux Foundation open.

A

A collectivist first, okay,.

B

The we a using open connected party, our project.

A

You know open collective as a concept or as the implementation is older than community bridge, and community bridge is new implementation by the Linux Foundation. But the idea is thing is similar with open collective.

A

Them they're focused on really supporting.

A

Organizations to dynamically form, whereas the Linux Foundation is focusing on providing a tool to manage the finances so that the strategic objective that they have is a little different. But when it comes to managing the Finance of a project, there's a lot of overlap and how they work. So.

A

Community bridge, for example, has a great integration with mentoring and other tools or open source projects we're so collective. They also focus on. Are they also target towards political groups and other open collectives? That's their name for an online community.

A

So they, when we're talking about who is really interested in living wage. Those are the two institutions that come to mind. There are some others, I know what the buck mark project. When we looked at other platforms that do similar things, we came across several like git coin. That is very much also talking in this space of how do we ensure that people get paid for their contributions.

A

Those are ideas that come to mind.

C

So those are great ideas and I think I'm still not sure that that really like puts the finger on you know who this demographic is and what their concerns are, but it but I'll definitely look at those I.

C

Just think it's interesting, that's a little bit tough to to figure out. You know. How actually can you get in touch with people who care about living wages for for open-source developers.

C

So Kevin to your point, to the to the extent that we expand our metrics, which makes sense personally, if we can figure out how to make this living wage, you know metric, maybe more relevant or expand on that. That that'd be my vote as to where our attention now to go, because I think these other metrics are going to be, are going to be fairly straightforward to come by and primarily.

D

C

They, you know, they fall into sort of increasing business velocity, there's a recruiting metric that lots of people are talking about and- and you know to the business velocity question.

C

You know you can find constituents who care about that primarily in business. You know with business executives, company leaders, the recruiting angle, you know, there's there's going to be an HR constituency. That really cares about increasing the velocity that are recruiting and reducing cost.

C

There's a branding angle, which is a little bit more nebulous but I. Think primarily, you know you can find constituencies on the business side around velocity and recruiting, but on the living wage side it's just harder.

D

Yeah I think it would be I think would be very interesting to to dig into that metric further and that I think there there are. Maybe a per your steering committee idea. I think there may be a few people that we could reach out to that. Could help inform that and the one I'm thinking about is the gentleman from sustain know asked he's a developer advocate who works for sticker mule New.

A

D

You know who I'm talking about yeah, so I actually I have interviewed him in the past and he has had. He has expressed interest in chaos. We might be able to maybe invite him, but one of these meetings and just kind of chat with him to get his thoughts. I.

D

Can't think of what his name is right now.

A

B

D

Definitely Justin. What did you say? His last name was.

D

Yeah Dorfman, that's right! Oh.

A

I'm looking at his LinkedIn right now, it looks like he is now with stack share.

D

He might be receptive to this.

B

He's a co-founder of sustain away yep so make sense now I think it would be good to read to now.

C

You know one thing: that's interesting to me: I'm, not I'm, not really sure what what questions should be asked around living wage.

C

Let's say: let's say you want to make a living wage with open source, your primary mechanism to do that today, I think, is to get hired by a company that is going to pay you a salary to be a developer, developer, advocate or or a coder on open source projects.

C

I wonder if there are other evidence that people are exploring or thinking about or if we should just exclude exclusively on that. Maybe that's! Ok, if that's the main mechanism for getting support, then for for making a living wage to get hired by a company, then.

C

Then maybe that's the thing to focus on how to get hired what salaries are being paid. Things of that nature.

C

So I guess I guess maybe a question is: are there other I know for making a living wage and open source other than getting hired.

D

Though the hiring is hiring is one of the those things that that people almost representative some organizations when I've talked to them um hiring people is one of those things that they always mentioned as value that they get from open source, so like Remy from Twitter I think actually actually brought that up at one of the chaos Khan's. It's like we're really interested in open source because we developers from these open source projects yeah.

C

D

The prime one of the primary values for them is is hiring.

B

D

To that I think there there are people that we could definitely hope that sorry and.

B

D

No, no go ahead. I think.

B

That is one of the question: unless the real soon they do use open source by hiding the managers, are they hiding the developers, formal context.

C

Yeah, recruiting is a benefit that comes up over and over again, that is, that serves the interest of essentially corporations or people who hire, and so the living wage metric, in my mind, is mostly focused on on the other side of the coin. You know: there's there's capital and there's labor right.

C

D

Kind of two different contexts to look it's just up or add, but the other is HR right.

C

Yes right, yes, I.

D

Think we can, we can explore that from both context. Know. Yes,.

C

If our value focuses exclusively on the side of capital, essentially you know, then then you know all the incentives are going to be to to lower the cost of labor and make it harder and harder. For you know people on the labor side of the equations. You know to make a living wage actually.

B

C

Got to be a balance, I.

B

Think developing.

B

Should be to focus on both the state it corporate and individual, a labor market in the capitalist we are sprayed the truth to both the angles, not just focus on the one side right.

A

Well, I think the questions we have on our living wage markdown file. That's already a pretty good start.

A

Maybe we can think about formulating these out more and just work with the starting place that we already have mm-hmm.

A

So earning potential I think that is clearly on the labor side right or effort to get started. That is how long it! What? How long does it really take me to learn the skills, I need or job opportunities that, if not the capital focus, but that's really the labor focus. If we continue using that language, how about we dive to those next I.

C

Think so, I think what what is so you before the Secession I was thinking. Oh, there may be, there's gonna be like different models for making a living in wage and open source, maybe like the uber of open source, where you could just be an independent person and make a living wage, but but I think no I think that the only realistic and tangible thing that we can focus on for now is helping people to get hired by by companies to support open source.

C

A

It's a starting place. You know we have to start with the low-hanging fruits if we want to make progress. Yeah.

C

And it's a good it's a fine starting point and it's it's already working for tons of people. Yeah.

C

Open-Source jobs.

B

Hardly platinum jobs in terms of the Liebherr R in terms of capital, jobs are posted by the capital Spain and look at the league was not well.

C

There is a there is a perspective from the from the capital side. You know around recruiting, and that is you know: getting higher quality candidates, lowering the cycle time to recruit new people, lowering the cost of finding candidates, and so I think what we need to do is is maybe just to put a little bit more thought into.

C

The metrics from the worker perspective.

C

And what that job scene looks like I mean average salary would be a big one.

C

Number of open jobs, amount of demand so.

A

Let's, let's focus on on one, that's a job opportunities.

A

A simple metric metric could be choose search for the open source project in question, on link in four dots. So, for example, I just did this for kubernetes and I come up with 24,000 results yeah if I type in Drupal I get four thousand results. Yeah.

A

So I think that that's give me another one rails rails.

B

Our programming but Python like these are the two, especially in data analytics. Ide, look for.

A

Our if I just type our ArrayList 10,000 time are I, get a lot of R&D and they are, and so ours nuts are.

D

I tried nodejs right, notjust.

A

Is 20,000 yeah with the dot if I do without.

A

So I think that is an easy metric. We can medium. That's a detail page about right.

C

Yep two thumbs up that'd, be killer, I think treat them them.

A

Well, if it counts all four of us, it's it's.

D

I mean using my toes as well: okay,.

A

Okay, now go ten I know I'm else, adding the third toes.

C

And then you know, a related thing would be average salary, but these things are paying.

A

To be I know here, let me start the Google Doc, so we can start gliding on this.

A

Sorry, it takes a moment for me to navigate here.

A

Do we have a template that we are following for our metrics.

C

Well, there is for the final version, I.

A

Mean just the what section is very busy.I.

C

I'll just say that the silence means no or we don't know.

A

Okay, I'm finding with Google Docs I'll, have them document here in a minute. Okay,.

A

Okay right now, it's a blank document and.

A

I'm I create the issue.

C

Could you post that URL in the chat.

A

Okay, so now we have a champ all.

A

So I don't know who posted the top question I posed, chilly so below it, I posted the one that you already had in our markdown files. How is yours different or what idea do you have in your that we can use to enhance.

B

My question was based on our anticipation that we type the keyword and was looking how many jobs are available for the particular domain in open space.

B

For example, with you just that kubernetes is like 20,000 jobs available. Something like this. That's.

A

What I read in the one that me as well.

E

A

Okay, so by example, Walter and visualizations came to mind for salary ranges and level I.

A

Don't know Lincoln has a play.

B

Lincoln has a piano.

B

B

They do a very Pierre.

B

One more thing: can we try the same thing on the indeed or summer, some other famous job hunting sites, and indeed has a Pierre also.

A

I'm going through your brainstorming lists at the bottom I think those are all good points, I'm trying to make sure we have them at the one reflected in the action metric.

A

Well, I would be very cautious with statements like the most, because that I don't feel comfortable, making definite statements like that a common way I think we're safe. Tonight. We.

C

Are safe, I kind of like making an assertion, because that invites people to challenge it and that's a way to learn.

C

But I'm okay, either way.

A

No big deal- maybe it's the academic and me that there's only statements that be up data for that's.

C

B

We are being trained in this.

B

So how do we feel about this metric I? Think it's in a pretty good sheet. I.

C

A

Love it look at us, we were talking about random things and then within 15 minutes we defined a new metric.

B

A

E

Totally love it, so this would be an awesome thing to launch. I think that this is a good we should keep in the meeting pick. One thing Green is.

B

From it and we can pretty much define it, yeah.

C

Yeah, it's practical sources of data ought to be available. You can imagine how it would be used easy to explain so I, like it very much yeah.

C

That's green, more or augur have any schemas now to hold this type of data.

A

So, with three more lab, there is no schema that needs to be developed. Well, it's how a very flexible database you just put in whatever data you want right. So the question is: can we build data ingestion part? Can we extend Percival to go query? Lincoln data yeah.

A

But auger guess you do have to build out FEMA in the database for it. My.

B

Daughter has moved to fourth grade, so they can still build optional, different objects. Nice.

C

What was that Finola I think.

B

I'll move to the Postgres, so they can die a birthday different in the way. A database.

C

Database is agree more using.

A

Elasticsearch mm-hmm.

C

So that's kind of like a document database sort of like a key value pair type of it. Take the other thing, yeah.

A

It's a no sequel database.

A

And the way that it works, is you have first of all? Does the data collector it goes out, collects it all down, produces jason object right.

C

A

Then you just note that JSON object into elasticsearch and from there qivana kind of visualize the data right.

C

A

I guess it's called an index. Elasticsearch problem and I usually call the table, they call an index and then we have to agree more yeah, okay, one more elk which does the modifications on the data and enriches it. So if you wanted to I, don't know, look at average time jobs are open where average.

A

Or I don't know whatever the calculation is, it was Ingram or elk. So.

C

In elasticsearch, do you define like a document type I.

A

C

Well, this is, uh this is great I'd, like it very much.

B

C

Shall we shall we wrap it up.

A

Do you want to put this into a markdown file next.

E

A

We feel like it's ready.

B

Ready for the comments, yeah.

C

I think it is ready and and I think it's awesome by the way.

A

So we want to hmm think about starting common place.

A

We don't have that many people on the value call took a kippah. We can post an email to the mailing list, say hey. We just defined a new metric today, everything when we post the Google Doc, so people can make it a suggestion. Yeah.

B

Totally agree: that'd.

C

Be awesome, cleared yeah.

A

We know did I just hear you say you wanted to do this.

A

I wasn't sure what you said so I just interpret the one I wanted to do the section.

B

Invented a group like that create a markdown I've, never done it. Guidance will be heard.

A

You can just send two lines and hey everyone in the chaos value metrics working group we defined living wage metrics. We would love your input. Please comment on this Google Doc and then put a link to the Google Doc down there. Ok.

B

A

You can say you can also comment on this issue and then you post the issue, linger ketball and that's it. It's a really short email. Ok, how to do that! Ok! Thank you.

A

I'll be dying, this type of sorry, if.

C

My job is to sweep up typos good.

A

Excellent well, thank you for the productive meeting, good conversation that.

C

Was awesome all.

A

Next week, thank you.