CHAOSS Weekly Hangout, 15 Sep 2020

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From YouTube: CHAOSS.Community.Sept.15.2020

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CHAOSS.Community.Sept.15.2020

A

And can you can you make a elizabeth co-host kevin.

B

That was recording that's good enough hi, everyone who is watching the recording and welcome to this week's community call on tuesday september 15th um we're gonna jump right in because we have exciting things going on in the chaos project very, very exciting.

B

uh The I saw there was a little mini thread about changing the word programs to initiatives. So I think that's. What we're gonna do is that right, matt g.

A

Yeah, I think so so my only thing was we have this, uh this term called programs which is like the dna badging program and um the community, the community reports we kind of put those under programs, um and then we put it on the website and it seemed so functional.

B

A

The the link just didn't seem very cool. You know what I mean like across the top. It didn't seem very inviting for people to possibly request a dna badge or to possibly request a community report, so we were just thinking what a different heading could be.

A

Does that make sense at all? I could share my screen and just show you it's probably really not that big of a deal but.

B

I yeah, I think it's fine.

A

So here initiatives.

B

A

B

Used to say, programs.

A

Which just seemed so again functional.

B

um I think that looks awesome and uh we already have one launched so go us, and that is of course the fabulous dni badging program that launched today uh minutes ago officially was merged into the website. So there's the blog post. If you all want to go, read it, and I think that the twitter account will grab that automatically.

B

So when you see that tweet come out, if you would not mind but to help us spread the word and help people find where they can choose um to submit their event for a badge that would be fantastic. We would really appreciate your help with outreach on that, um because we want a good response, maybe not too good, but we do have six reviewers, but you know it's early on so um but yeah. No, I think that's just fabulous work, matt snell! You want to talk anything say anything about that.

C

um I really just want to say thank you to everyone. Who's been a part of the dna badging pro initiative and um and that I really appreciate, even if you've just kind of touched, the project talked about something that could be improved. You've really made a big impact on this um program initiative and um hopefully, we'll see some some improvement in the community as a result of that. So I just really appreciate all of you for that.

C

That's all I had.

B

Any other comments or questions for matt about this.

A

Mine is um I'm super excited too, I'm a little terrified that people that we might get a lot of requests and so just kind of making sure it goes well. uh I think the workflow is really good and I think that we have like the review process. I think it's there maybe have to be some things that get worked out, um which is totally fine. I'm that's! Okay.

A

We did put on there that we request a two-month lead time if an event is gonna request, a badge. So if we don't get like a week, five day request turnaround. I just don't think we can do it um and then um I do think we're gonna need more reviewers, as this goes on. So maybe in the outreach stuff elizabeth we could also say and don't.

B

A

You can always be a reviewer.

B

You know yeah 100 and if someone is considering being a reviewer about their maybe a little unsure of um you know how it kind of goes, there's a great uh process that matt has set up for onboarding reviewers, so we're not just gonna. You know throw you out into the the wilderness alone. um With this, we will definitely guide you along the way and help you review, um and so don't don't be afraid to do that.

D

Is there what would you think about putting a little advertisement on our participate page? If someone comes to chaos wants to get involved, they find the participate page and then maybe we have a panel for become a badging reviewer.

C

Yeah, um I think we talked about that in the blog post and we can probably just kind of port that as because um we have a really good section about that uh that we can just put in its own kind of section. Like you said, I think that sounds great.

E

I think that that participate page is already getting pretty loud, uh so I would. uh I would give that some considerable thought before adding any more any more things to it. uh I think right now, matt snell has that information at the top of the the badging program, page.

E

So it's definitely there.

C

I think it might be even a better place to add it to the. I don't know if we have anything specifically about reviewing for the project on the initiative cni badging page. So that should be something that could be something we put into the reviewer list. So hey, if you want to add yourself to the list, um go to an orientation meeting with me and or someone who's a maintainer, and then you just contact this person to get started or fill out.

C

This google form we have a lot of ways you can get started as a reviewer, but you know.

E

If we're, if we're needing reviewers, we can also make a call on the uh the front page, a call out on the front page for for volunteers.

E

On a temporary basis or semi-permanent basis,.

B

Yeah I like that idea, a.

C

C

I also want to say thank you to kevin, because um I don't know how you do it with the web. The more I discover that is on the website, the more I realize you have to maintain. So I also wanted to thank you for that, because you've been diligent and updating it.

C

B

All right, let's move on to our next item, which is the community report launch, which will also happen imminently, because we are absolutely ready to go with that and if anyone here is newish and isn't quite familiar with that process. Essentially we are offering to run a one-page report for anyone that wants one so that just gives them some high level metrics around the health of their communities, and we just do one one repo right now and um we have a couple week turnaround.

B

I think we we say, um but we will be launching that probably tomorrow, I would imagine, since we did the dni badging today, that'd be probably a lot. So maybe tomorrow we will be launching this community report and that's also very very exciting. um The report is made of two graphs from gramor lab and two from auger, and then we will be sending that out to the people directly who oh yay there you go who's doing that matt so good.

B

um It's almost like we planned that to happen, but we didn't so good job anyway. That's what the report looks like and um yeah. So that's what the uh the receiver will will see when they get that and obviously it will have their um their information there.

B

So if anyone has any questions about that, um let us know there should be. I think it's already live on the site, but there's a form that people fill out, that you know they provide all their information and we kind of give little teasers as well as if you know they want more information about chaos or if they want more metrics in the future. So we're also trying to get some insight from them as to like what what's important to them and what they why they want to see the health of their community.

B

So we're kind of also hoping to get some more insight around people who are who are submitting these reports as well and and really the goal is for them to want to dig in deeper on their own, with with using more of our metrics and um implementing them in their process, so which is kind of um kind of like a a little teaser for them.

B

Anybody have questions or comments anything about that.

A

I'm also terrified about the number of requests that might come in so yeah we'll see.

B

Yeah, so that will be another one to watch for probably tomorrow again um to just watch. If you're a twitterer, then you can retweet. That would be greatly appreciated. um Maybe if you have a lot of followers, maybe don't don't do that, but um no I'm just kidding. um We would love any help. You had in outreach.

E

I've dropped some notes into the google document page as well. We do. We do still need some help with the uh design and editing that uh the chaos report form web page. So uh as as you said, the uh the form is actually live on the website. However, it is not included in navigation, yet so there's there's a link there. You can peek at what it looks like.

E

And we do need edits around that.

E

B

Oh, that's a great point. Thank you kevin for bringing that up, so it might not be tomorrow. It might be the next day depending on when we can get this page finished, but yeah the next few days. So.

A

Kevin can the form not.

E

Be gray so that was a design choice that they made. uh uh Yes, the form cannot be gray. uh We can go in and edit that fairly easily, but that was a that was a design choice that came from the uh uh I, the the team at the linux foundation, that made the form so uh that that form code is on the website there as well. So anything in that form code can be edited there.

E

I will say: if you're, I think I think matt snell did a really nice job on the design of the diversity and inclusion uh form page. So, if you're, if you're looking for insight on what this page could look like check that out.

C

I have one question: is the form, is it active or would you be able to use it right now? uh If I fill out all the fields it.

E

C

E

Check I've tested it, uh I've tested it and it appears to work so.

F

Yes, uh once you submit it, uh we'll receive the emails at the back end. That's nice.

D

And then did we double check that the process we have in the handbook is the one that we finally decided on just so that we have one place that we all agree on.

A

I haven't checked that.

F

F

So far, right now, my understanding is once anyone submits the form. It will go to uh this golden theme and to the auger team to generate the graph which will be sent to me and I'll, compile the report and we'll submit it.

A

And we also want don't, aren't we gonna if somebody says that it's okay to share their report weren't, we gonna put it on a github repo.

D

A

And we have that, I think we have that all set up. So yes, okay,.

A

G

So you all know.

A

I'm not working on anything for the next like month. I'm just going to make sure these two things. Don't don't collapse uh if we have.

E

Example, reports or links to repositories where we can share reports. uh We should probably it might be nice to include some of that information on this on the web page as well.

H

I agree I was going to mention something similar, because I know we have a couple an example of what a community could look like just to help people understand what they're getting into um and I and you mentioned you're, going to be putting all of them on a github repo. We might want to state that publicly.

A

Oh, we ask if we can it's part of the form we ask if we can.

I

A

H

Would that be a link that you would put in in the site as well? Some people could share ones.

A

I'm not sure do you think it would be like have the link on the where I'm pointing on the chaos page um that links to the github repo. I mean we're just going to use the repo to basically drop the pdfs in because that's the form they come at, but that's a good idea to have it on the the website as well the link's over.

A

If that's what you were saying.

G

A

A

So I'll make kevin I'll capture some of that, so that that form at the top of the community reports, page kind of expresses that.

A

Like here's some sample reports, you know here's a sample report and here's a link to all the reports that have been generated to date or something along. Those lines sounds good. Also.

E

If, if uh feel free to create new markdown files, if the content is separate, so the we, the the website is kind of laid out in kind of modules or components. So it doesn't all have to be in the same markdown file.

A

B

Good awesome moving right along unless anybody has anything else to discuss.

B

Okay, um sorry, my dog is playing um yeah. So, let's move on to the community handbook. I didn't know if jaskrat had a uh an update for us, if not that's cool too.

J

Hi everybody I shared it, so uh I'm done with uh my 40 percent of the project, which is the creating the handbook and finally, like we are done with the community bonding period and this week we start with the official like the dog development phase, and the interesting fact is that, uh like we're, gonna revamp the not only them but we're gonna move our the existing handbook, which is located on the github towards their new handbook.

J

So I'm gonna write on a mailing list about the things which we have done so far and how people can access or they can view the uh web. Some like the handbook and I'm I I was like. I was supposed to work on the road map section for in the previous week, but I put that on a hole after discussing with the guard, so I am working on the program initiative which we participates.

J

Like the google summer of code outreach and google season of talks, I would be writing about like how to get involved as a student. What are the uh things required before gsoc during gsoc and the after giza and similar things works for the mentors and for the other projects so well yeah? This is this all about, like I've worked so far on the community handbook and.

B

Yes, fantastic. Do people have questions comments? I.

D

Just want to say just scratch uh has done a lot of work, even during the community bonding period already and moving the handbook forward. So I'm super excited for for our new handbook and just grant also has some plans for making some visual additions to the to make. It really look nice. So.

J

Yeah yeah, thank you. Thank you, god for adding this. I just wanted to add a few more things into this that I had a conversation with the errol fox, who is one of the great designer in the working in the open source ecosystem and she I'm like they have uh agreed to uh help in the community handbook designing the visualization. So we would be uh connecting on a call like, along with the other mentors, to discuss on the. How will visualizations needs to be accessed in the handbook. What are the requirements for it?

J

So they mentioned that they would be available after the september 17th. That makes sense like we have a lot of time available in the coming time, so that should not take much time to develop these things so yeah like we would be discussing ahead like what things required and what visualizations are needed in the formatting handbook and based on those things we would be also taking into consideration about the open source license, as well as any other valid license, which we need to put up for the uh visualizations. uh So yeah.

B

That's really great. I did not know that that's awesome. Thank you.

B

Any other questions about the community handbook.

A

Mine is just a comment. I I love how it's looking. I really do um so great work.

J

B

All right: well, let's move along to chaos, cast I'm pretty sure. George wants to talk about that for a minute.

D

The support chaos cast, we have been partnering with the code fund, podcast network and then codefront shutdown and the podcast network regrouped as rebase fm. The problem is that they couldn't make it sustainable in the two months or so that they were working under this new name and so they're. Shutting down as of this week so on friday will be the last chaos cast episode that we have supported through this group.

D

The nice thing is, they provided funding, they sought out sponsors, they provided the audio editing, the show notes um all for no cost to us. We just included the sponsor message in the in our podcast so moving forward without their support.

D

We have to choose how we want to continue and we've had some conversations with the chaos board and the podcast organizers. We would like to continue the podcast.

D

Hiring the same person who has been doing our editing so far costs us 160 dollars for one episode to have the audio edited and the show notes created, and we think it's worth the money we just have to find the money. So now the question is: how can we have enough money to pay for the podcast, and so, if you're, looking in the show notes, I put in a proposal for reaching out to our.

D

All of the people who are very fond of chaos to ask if they have any money that they can uh give to chaos to sponsor the podcast, and we have I I'm proposing for sponsorship levels with different levels of perks. For that.

A

So one of my comments is whenever I listen to a podcast, so, for example like when I listen to the one that don was on yesterday there, a lot of the sponsors are companies. I've never heard of, and I actually do go check them out um so, but I think, like one was, uh I don't know, is it a company that helps with community management, maybe kind of forget what it was but um like? How do we f? Who are? How do we find those like who are those people?

A

I have no idea.

A

It doesn't seem like anybody else, does either.

K

I think part of part of it is um if you, if you listen to a lot of podcasts, you start to kind of see the same advertisers over and over on a lot of the tech podcasts.

K

So we could um conceivably reach out to to some of those companies, um but I you know, I think in general it tends to be companies that are sort of in the same space right, so companies that are doing something that's in some way related to open source project, health, open source, metrics um and right now there are a few of those and we tend to tap them for sponsorships for other things and they're small companies without a lot of money. So I'm not we're in kind of a bind. I agree with that.

K

I do like the idea of getting sponsorships. Do we have this in, like a blog post or something that we can share like retweet and things.

D

Not yet I wanted to discuss this with you all first, but I'm happy to put it in a blog post and yeah. That's a good idea.

H

Can you share who we have for sponsorship, so we don't reach out to the same folks.

D

um We currently, I don't think we have a registry or anything, a community bridge.

E

We want to maybe combine the efforts uh with chaos con the other, the other place that we try to collect money, uh maybe combine the efforts so that uh we're maybe raising money for chaos con and the chaos cast at the same time or talking to the same people. Maybe.

D

If we created a sponsor prospectus, um we have one for chaos con, so we could add a page for the podcast and then we could even add a third page for our outreachy mentorship.

D

Those are all the things that we are seeking money for.

K

Although I'm not sure we should look for money for chaos con, given that we don't know when we're going to do another one, I would almost remove that from the sponsorship prospectus until we know when we're going to have one because fosdem's virtual. So I don't know that we'll do one.

L

Yeah we we may want to start doing some community hackathons around metrics or topical, some kind of virtual something uh lightweight basis. Maybe not maybe not chaos con like we had it, but something.

K

I mean like a podcast.

L

Well, a podcast is helpful, but I'm thinking something more conversational. You know last year and in fosdem we got a lot of open source, scientific software. Folks- and you know it's it's um some way of opening the community like. Maybe maybe we could do it with some of the technology projects, like maybe augur, could do a a hackathon like an open hackathon for a day or something like that.

L

Just to see people getting engaged. Maybe a working group could do something similar to try to sort of overview what the project is and press out a couple of metrics that folks are interested in. So I'm thinking some along the lines of some kind of more lightweight synchronous, small scale, sub event like not that's not the kind of thing where we'd have all people in one place, but it would draw smaller crowds to specific niches.

C

I like the idea of a hackathon a lot um I when I was looking for jobs and internships early on. I was going to a lot of hackathons and events like that and I I there's a big difference between a hackathon, that's trying to get contributions from people and a hackathon, that's trying to engage people, and I think that distinction also needs to be made. If we do something like that,.

K

Yeah agreed, but I also think we could do in this virtual environment. We could do a hackathon, um probably without any sponsorship at all. Right I mean to do it in a virtual environment. I don't know that it would cost us anything.

L

If we wanted to send swag or something to people it might, we might have nominal costs, but certainly the cost would be less than in an ordinary environment.

C

I do want to step back for a second, I have a recommendation for the sponsorship tiers that we have. It looks like they're geared towards um towards organizations, and that makes sense. I also would recommend having some sort of um sponsorship or like individual contribution kind of levels as well, because I've individually contributed to this kind of stuff and- um and I I just think that it would be good to have that in a structured way.

K

I think that's a great idea, even just even just something simple like you know, kind of like what pete? Would they a lot of a lot of podcasts use patreon for for something like this, where people can contribute just tiny amounts to to give something back for something that they enjoy? Listening to.

C

I've also seen sponsor an episode or like by episode level sponsorship tiers as well, um which is something that just I'm throwing out there too.

A

What is that? Weird noise coming from your computer.

L

Yeah, I don't have do not. I didn't apparently do not disturb on it's the sound that slack makes when it sends me a message.

B

So everyone should.

L

B

You right now, no.

L

I just turned: I just turned slack off you. People.

B

I I like those also those levels matt and georg. um I also think you know if an open source project wanted to put a you know sponsor one or something like. I think that would be a potential.

K

Too, it would also be worth asking um the linux foundation for their suggestions. um If there are people that they know who would sponsor something like this or people that might be interested.

A

Are you talking about the hackathons or the podcast, or both.

K

So I was talking about the podcast.

A

D

Now that's a good idea. So if you go to the minutes, I added a personal level and episode level um and then we can have a month level.

D

Quarter level.

D

I don't know if these levels level names make sense, we can also call them uh something else.

E

And then what do we get? Would we update the the prospectus to include all of these possibilities.

E

I think we're going.

D

To have one prospectus, I thought we were going to go with the blog post. Just have a blog post for these.

E

Okay, I think my original point was rather than having, rather than having these these individual groups doing the fundraising independently.

E

Perhaps we could have some sort of concerted chaos, effort or a group that was focused on sponsorship, as it doesn't make sense to have the podcast people trying to raise money and then uh outreachy we're trying to raise money for that separately. It just it kind of.

G

Agrees to have.

E

One one group doing it or have kind of a focused effort at it.

L

I agree: there's yeah it's easier to raise money for the general cause and maybe highlight some of these different things at different times.

B

I like that idea too, but I I do think we should keep the podcast and anything else separate, because I I think, that's, um I think, more effective to say: oh yeah, here's the podcast like it's its own little thing, and then we also have this other thing. And then this other thing. But I don't. I think if you put it all on one giant prospectus, I think it's just going to get unwieldy, but I do absolutely agree that um we could have people that just focus on on fundraising in general.

F

I would add to that, like people doing the general fundraising, but then during the racing they have a focus area. Okay, right now we are more focused on donating the revenue for the podcast or maybe for like when the community outreach times comes. We can like focus on that area.

B

Yeah, I agree because the podcast is time sensitive right now, and so that should be the focus. I think.

A

So let me um well, let me think about this too. I think the chaos project is also in a unique position that we do have an opportunity for grant. Funding support has has played out well in this project in the past, um so we may also think I'm I'm a little with john. I don't real, always like reaching out to the same people. I think we need to be very conscious of that.

A

So thinking about how we can maybe broaden those efforts to include not just organizations but also funding agencies as well.

L

I think those are good ideas.

A

um And then just another small note right we're still working out. There's a there was a issue minor issue with community bridge funding that we're hoping to get resolved. So if you look at some of the transactions, there were some funds that were kind of moved away from the chaos project and we're hoping.

J

To get those moved.

A

Back to the chaos project, so.

D

A

D

On another note, for the podcast, until we have a sponsor again we're going to move to a bi-weekly release cycle, to reduce the cost and to spread out how long we can have the podcast and we have three episodes planned um or funded as of right now. But then we would complete deplete community bridge.

A

Well, if we can get the community bridge issue resolved, then that should give you plenty of lead time for a while.

L

A

B

Anything else about the podcast or sponsorship, fundraising.

B

Okay, let's move on so the next one, um so sean and matt, and I were just chatting and we were talking about the vision of open source in general, and so we just wanted to and I'll let sean and matt jump in here as well. But um we just wanted to kind of get your all's thoughts and and opinions about um where, where you think open source is going or where would you like it to be in five years? It's.

B

I know it's hard to kind of envision anything right now, because the world is extremely ambiguous and uncertain, but um just wanted to kind of throw that out there and and see what what people's thoughts were and matt and sean. If you have anything to add.

L

I mean, I think I think this is a broad question, so, right now we're focused on our own open source projects, the metrics for them. What do do we have a? Do? We have a collective vision or idea of what open source like in general, like the big open source umbrella may look like in five years and how it would be just distinct or different than it is today.

H

I feel like there's many possible arms of this conversation, so I'll just throw out the first thing that comes to mind, which is the move away from software as the focus of open source, and that I think even this project is an example where you can use an open source, like collaboration model, to talk about something that isn't software, we're talking about metrics and yeah hardware, that's emerging more in terms of open search, hardware, projects and communities, um and I have started to see more open source like communities emerging around shared interests and shared topics that aren't necessarily explicitly called open source, but could learn and benefit from, say.

H

The collaboration model, organizational model, governance model that or open source has worked through to create and establish collaboration models.

L

So your open production in general, I think, is.

H

L

Resources, not just software.

H

L

That's how we would see it differently, like we wouldn't think of it. As only a software thing, we would recognize open practices writ large.

H

That's the thought.

K

Yeah I mean ruth had something next, I think.

G

uh Hi everyone.

G

So, okay, um where I would love to see um open source ecosystem in five years, is being open to beginners because that's like it's like a struggle, so um a beginner completely new to tech. So I'll give a scenario.

G

So, sometime last two months, I saw an open source project and I wanted to contribute to the project and on one of the issues, I think someone was finding it very difficult to understand the issue and one of the maintainers actually actually made the comment and said um this project, or this issue is open to beginners in open source are not beginners in tech, so it was really very, very upsetting because I I have had issues where I've struggled to contribute to a project, because I I I'm just starting out in tech and I've also had similar stories.

G

I had similar stories from friends, so one thing I would love to see in the open source space is for every project to be beginner friendly, not just to someone uh new in open source, but to everyone that is new in tech. Just even even though you just wrote it does all the code. The code you just written in that point or just hello world at least I can contribute to that project as a beginner, because it's actually really a pain point and for for most projects or for some projects I've come across.

G

I don't think I don't think they try to implement that by creating issues where, if a beginner stumbles on your project, I I should feel welcome at first or coming into the community. I should feel welcome, saying hello. I should feel welcome in the meetings if you're saying something technical, you should also consider that some someone, someone out there listening to you- might just be hearing this for the first time. So, even as I try to say the technical stuff, I said.

G

Okay, this is actually what I mean, because you never know who might be listening at that point. So I think that's one one thing: I'd love to see in the open source space in next five years.

C

If I could give you like, like an idea of how much I appreciate what you just said, I I can't but like I really appreciate it.

M

I mean just to add on to like your previous comments. Is I mean even in open source software? uh I think too much of the focus has been on software itself in the code, so other contributions just sort of get ignored or not even measured.

M

Things like you know, helping somebody on a forum answering questions or even on slack.

M

Those things are like harder to measure, and then you know people making those contributions, sort of get ignored or or not recognized adequately, and I you know, I think, like I've, seen a lot of like companies that are getting started. I talked to just one yesterday in san francisco they're that are trying to look at measuring roi, and you know in in like non-code activities, which is good to see.

M

I I think a lot of it is still manual, but um I think all of us has to sort of move away from just looking at only like what's happening with the code in the repos.

K

I feel like kubernetes is a good example of a project, that's starting to move in this direction that others can kind of model it. On I mean we have loads of programs for um for newcomers. They're also, you know, issues are tagged good first issues and we've tried to actually move a lot of the traditional work.

K

That's not usually done in the repos to github, so things like event organization and a lot of those things have been trying to put into the repos into github so that it starts getting tracked and measured and showing up in the you know showing up in dev stats. So I would, I would love to see more open source projects kind of take the direction that kubernetes has had with this like trying to be really friendly to newcomers and trying to really help mentor people, and I would love to see more projects, do that.

I

Openstack was also doing a lot of activities in that space and just kind of on one hand trying to make sure that we not just have a developer community, but we also have a user community, creating feedback, loops and, and things like that, so kind of encouraging the community to organize events or go to other events and speak and all these kind of opportunities and trying to ensure that these also count as contributions, because not everyone is a developer or not.

I

Every person is writing code, but there are so many other ways like organize a meetup in your area.

I

That's also a contribution that is really easy to overlook, but it's also really important to build local communities as well and making sure that people are aware uh who are the others in their areas and and these kind of things, the other area, where we also try to put a lot of effort into is, for example, translations like translating the documentation into various languages and that's also an area um where the contributions are really valuable and again has practically almost nothing to do with the code itself.

I

So there are, there are uh really a lot of good examples. I'm not sure that we can automate everything in terms of metrics and and measuring all this like. I know that there are a couple of communities doing, for example, contributor awards periodically and that's practically human input to recognize contributors, code contributors or non-code contributors. It really doesn't matter, but those people who are putting a lot of work um into their contributions, and they are not recognized- and I think, probably the best way to recognize these people will remain based on human input.

I

For for a long while- and I don't really necessarily think that it's a problem also because somehow we need to keep the human factor as well and just kind of build it into people that you can recognize others and help newcomers that way too, as well.

I

Just my two cents.

K

The other trend that I think we've been we've already been seeing this over a number of years, but I see it sort of increasing in intensity is the corporate involvement in open source and more people actually getting paid to do the work that they're doing within open source projects. So companies sponsoring people to to you know to do a lot of the work within open source projects, and with that I think the other piece of that is.

K

You know these companies coming together and working together in in big foundations and donating projects or contributing projects to like the cncf and the linux foundation. I know we do a lot of that at vmware when we get projects that have, you know, reached some sort of critical mass with other other participants from other companies. We end up donating them to two foundations, so we can continue to to grow that and I think I think that kind of corporate aspect of open sources is continuing to increase and accelerate.

L

D

And one of the things that I know is an ongoing conversation is the sustainability of open source projects in the ecosystem as a whole. What don was just talking about with companies being involved that just increased the stakes, but it's a conversation that is ongoing and I don't know where we will land on that.

A

I often think of you know the the cncf internet interactive landscape map. You know I'm talking about that giant thing, yeah and so.

L

A

Can we get but like okay, so it's a bit overwhelming sure, but like could we look at the health of that like? Is that even like, if we just look at a project by project, are we looking at the health of a project kind of like by only looking at the pinky of a person right like we need to understand the entirety of how this project is positioned within an ecosystem, to truly understand its health? We can understand it highly localized, but it's.

L

J

L

I think it's that when we apply the metrics, we always know that right. Are you so you're suggesting that somehow we? What do we do, that we're not doing.

L

A

L

It's widely recognized when we actually do it that, yes, these things all exist in a context. Are we what's I'm not following the goal.

A

Well, just understanding that projects don't live in isolation right.

G

A

At the health of a project, just by looking at its repo yeah contributions, around kind of just that repo, probably.

L

B

One thing I think that's interesting to look at is um the the social good that comes with open source and like making sure that that piece doesn't ever get lost. If um you know corporate is is doing more, and more like is, is that a piece of open source that is beautiful and wonderful and magical? That's going to get lost in the in the fray, because nobody like there's not really money in that and so like that. That is something that I would want to keep an eye on.

B

Personally, you know, like my personal feeling, is that it should be a balance. It should be a diverse landscape of different types of open source projects, just like it should be a diverse landscape of contributors of of all from everywhere, and so, like. I don't know how you measure that piece, but that is something that I'm.

G

B

L

Yeah, I agree I'm interested in that also.

D

At the state of the source last week there were three other things that I took away. One was patents, that's a still ongoing uh conversation or danger that is looming over software patents, specifically um one toby langell had mentioned a constituency hierarchy who are we actually building foreign? Who is our our ideal person that we're building for working with and the third one is the corporate engagement that we already talked about.

D

And specifically, having like a big corp certification or an ethical, open source contributor.

D

Brand, like a fair trade mark that companies can get for being good citizens in open source.

B

So, looking at the time, sadly, we are out of time and we did not get to everything on our agenda. Apologies for that- and I know this was kind of a big conversation. um If people have further thoughts, uh matt shaw: do you think they should email or what would you recommend? Should we put something to the mailing list or would.

L

A mailing list discussion on this last topic might be helpful.

B

Cool okay, um yeah: let's do that and then we will get to attribution and hacktoberfest uh next time is that okay, whoever put those on the agenda is that all right, okay, octoberfest, I think we'll start in october. Obviously so um I think we'll have time next week to talk about that.

B

So awesome all right! Thank you! So much everyone that was a really fantastic conversation and a good meeting, and I appreciate all of you very much for showing up and taking your time to be with us today. So we will see you next week thanks everybody! Yes,.

N

Thanks bye-bye.

B