CHAOSS Weekly Hangout, 6 Jun 2023

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From YouTube: CHAOSS Weekly Community Call June 6 2023

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Meeting summary can be found here: https://chaoss.discourse.group/t/chaoss-weekly-community-meeting-summary-june-6/162/1

A

uh Hey everyone: it's Tuesday, June 6th, happy birthday to my daughter wherever you are I, know you're not watching this.

B

Recording but happy.

A

Birthday to you, anyway, um yeah so I hope everybody's having a good day. We have the minutes, are in the chat and, as always, just want a quick, remind everybody um that this is under the chaos code of conduct. So keep that in mind, and we do not care if you have your cameras on or off we're happy to integrate your chat in the flow of the meeting. It's super casual here make sure I turn on captions. There we go share here.

A

We go there, it is, and if you would like to add your name, I think everybody has, or most people have um and tell us if you'd rather watch a sport or play a sport, and that is a little bit of a trick question because it probably does depend on the sport in my case mini golf.

A

Yes, we were talking about the mini golf technology and how far it's come so I feel like I want to Google that and go down that rabbit hole a little bit later on today, uh yeah Kevin, yes, depends on the.

C

Sport 100, you can watch mini golf too. You know there is a TV show.

A

D

Moly, that show is phenomenal by the way really.

C

Yeah it's on ABC or just one of the main channels and I think it's it's a summer show, so it should be starting soon. So I'll keep you posted. Please.

A

Do please if I don't have Network TV, oh I'm, I'm done, maybe old, where you runs, are on YouTube or something I.

C

A

Probably yeah I'm definitely gonna go down that rabbit hole. Now thanks a lot guys appreciate you, um okay, so first, um this was a carryover from last week when we had a super light crowd because it was a short week for some and yeah people are on vacation and stuff. uh We just were curious who's going to Fosse if you're going um I, don't know, maybe put it in here or something I'm, not sure I'll be there I, just gotta talk accepted so I'll be talking about getting more contributors for your project.

A

A piece of it will be. Metrics is a section on metrics awesome, awesome, um Justin, Flory and I are also going to give a talk. There we gotta, we had submitted a joint talk about newcomer experience and how you have to do a little more than just have contributing dot MD. So we're going to talk about some stuff that they're doing in Fedora the stuff we do here. So that's on the Dei track.

A

Download track is yours on. Is it on Dei or uh no? It's in the community track. Okay, awesome.

A

um We are also having a booth at Fosse, yay um I. Think it's our first time having a booth somewhere right.

C

um You feel like Georg, has run like a grimoire lab, but this has been the closest we've ever come because that's chaos, stickers.

A

So um I was planning to be there anyway to staff the booth, but now that I'm gonna give a talk, also I'm again more than happy to staff the booth as far as many hours as possible.

A

um If anybody is there Don or Sophia whoever um and wants to take a little booth time, I can set up like a.

E

A

Up sheet or something- and we can split it up a little bit but I'm I'm more than happy to kind of bear the bulk of that um that kind of Burden, because it does get a little uh I mean I've done booths a lot so I, don't mind, you know chatting with people. It's totally fine, but I know it for some, it's a little overwhelming. So um what I wanted to ask the community is: what do you think we need to that's? Oh that's what I was just gonna ask: are you typing that Matt?

A

ah What's that? What do you all think we need? um I was gonna I have in the past printed stuff, banners um for other organizations for user groups and things where I've done booths so I know where to get it pretty cheaply at a pretty good quality.

A

um So I was gonna offer to do that part just get a big banner printed, but I didn't know. Stickers is also something I was gonna. Think about um Ruth. Let me know that chaoscon Africa they have had some chaotic stickers made they're the design team. For that. So she sent me the PNG I was going to get some of those printed, which would be awesome. Yeah.

C

And I think all of those like that seems like a really easy thing to get reimbursed through as well. I can't imagine a banner is but I can't. None of this stuff is hugely expensive.

A

Yeah I would imagine like a couple hundred bucks could take care of most of it on.

C

The banner I read there: they like have pretty strict guidelines on what you can bring and what you can't bring in, and so we would end up reusing them anyway. You know.

A

E

C

Just for our other events for.

A

Sure yeah I'm also hoping I reached out to all things open as well to see because they have project non-profit ish kind of booths available as well, so I think we hopefully will have a booth there too,.

C

um Why don't you just order what you need and then we can just do a reimbursement, whether it's all effects or like the slow and stuff? Okay.

A

um Sometimes you're worth asking gay Arc too. If we have anything that we can reuse from.

F

um Some of the other stuff that we've done because I know I think we've done kiosk business at bosdam before maybe.

B

Like a table, Yeah.

E

Yeah I wonder if.

A

We have any banners or tablecloths or anything left over from those.

F

A

Great idea, great idea, um also I, will set up a sign up um thing in case anybody does want to grab some time. It's not a big deal. If you don't I mean you know, it's not a big deal.

A

Worst case is I'm, giving a talk. There's nobody at the booth, for you know, half an hour or whatever it's okay, it's all right.

A

E

A

Else that, if somebody's seen like do you all think we should do like a raffle or like any of that kind of stuff I, don't know how complicated we want to make things I'm happy to not do anything but I'm. Also, if people are passionate, they feel like. We should be doing something like that. um Absolutely.

C

Yeah I don't know that we've ever talked about that ever but.

A

Like you know where you like, collect a business card, whatever I don't know, it seems like a lot of work, but um again I'm super happy to do it totally. Fine.

C

What would we raffle off.

A

I, don't know whatever you guys want.

G

I guess I'm not sure what the like incentive for us to do that either is beyond making it fun in the sense that, like we, don't really want to collect people's names and interest forms like I think in other booths. It's like you, have these sort of games to get people to engage with you more. So you can get their contact info and follow up with them and marketing material and we're not really doing that.

G

um But if we did have something we wanted people to participate in, then we could have a raffle as part of that um I guess my my personal inclination. This is definitely my own biases is like I love to do stuff, like that for like a research project where you answer a question and then you enter a raffle by because then like there is some give and take where, like you get a prize, maybe- and we get to collect data around how people answer this one question.

G

But if we have, if we have one, uh if we don't have one, then you don't have to worry about it, but I think that's it's generally, like I, don't know because, like we we're not really interested in making a mailing list, so yeah I think, but we might be interested in answering a question.

D

Yeah I think the I think the purpose on our end is to uh kind of generate conversation, so I'm wondering if we could create maybe a couple kind of one cheaters or some Graphics, that would uh uh kind of encourage discussion at the table and then I'm wondering if we, if we want to kind of, engage with them, maybe like a short one-page survey. How healthy is your project like non-academic survey, just uh just how healthy is your project kind of form that they could fill out or something just to get people thinking about?

D

uh Maybe how they're, how some of our metrics are applicable to their projects or communities.

D

I suppose we could we could use it as a sign scientific survey, I suppose but uh I I don't know it's more more anecdotal, I suppose.

G

But I think that's that could still be valuable too, like I, don't really know if it's going to show up to this space and it is always an opportunity to learn, even if it's not particularly scientifically rigorous,.

D

At the very least, it gets people kind of talking and thinking about it. So.

A

Maybe that um starter project metrics model, we could just do like a thing like have you considered these metrics in your project or something like that.

D

Yeah, maybe just uh just like a one-sheet form that.

E

D

They can turn into us if they want or uh if not they can take it and think about it, and that's where the metrics are at.

A

Curious to know what people are measuring right now, like do you measure anything in your community and, if so like. What? What do you measure I? Think that would be kind of interesting like.

C

That that's short and simple.

A

And I um I think the only the only benefit to to collecting those business cards is. If we did have folks that were in ospo's or in you know the scientific, Community or universities, we could kind of Point them to our context working groups.

A

um But again that's going to be like a lot of work, I think to sift through all that and then, like you know, you.

C

Can just invite them on the spot? Yes,.

A

Yeah yeah: do you measure anything currently.

A

Well, this is not until July, so we do have a little time. So you know, if folks want to give it a little thought and if there's something they think that would be beneficial to chaos and our metrics and yeah.

A

C

Can we raffle off something.

A

Yeah I mean I I, don't know: okay, I'm.

D

Always down based.

E

D

The survey one sheet that would be the uh that would be how you uh sign up for the raffle yep.

G

I mean I, don't know what you have left in the like Swag Bags, but like leftover stuff, we've gotten for other events. You know maybe like the lunch boxes or t-shirts. I, don't know if you have extras.

B

G

Might not be incentive enough, but like people generally like t-shirts, a lot like things. So hopefully you won't have to get new things. But if you have like five or six things that we could.

C

Just have I've been pushing for a plushy snake as our chaos mascot forever because of the two s's yes, so we could go to Etsy and have somebody like embroider Chaos on a snake.

A

I mean I I, well, I know they. They do the elephants right, like so every event has its own elephant. Every user group like there's all different colors. You collect them like it's a thing and so I could look into who makes those because they do have like the PHP logo like they were designed for the PHP community and they had like the logo on the side and they all have all different colors.

C

And it's like the sushi Bay like somehow yeah the blizzard thing. Yes,.

A

Yes, I mean that's a whole, like can of worms.

C

A

That's a whole other thing, so I think that might take some some doing. I, don't know if we can get that done by July. I guess is what I'm trying to say, but but.

C

You can put a sticker on it.

G

Maybe not a sticker, maybe like a little necktie sort of like put a sticker on a plushie, but if you get a necktie, this is chaos a flag.

A

Yeah, a little bow, okay, we'll think about swag and raffle is always okay.

A

Yeah see, that's the fun stuff. I really like to do I. Think it's so fun! Oh, can somebody drop the oh I can drop it in here, never mind I. Have it open for Delight there you go my friend.

A

um Anything else about fossee. We want to chat about.

A

E

A

My daughter calling me now: does she not know I? Have this I have a meeting same time every every week? It's okay! She caused me a lot. It's so good um and now I feel bad, because I declined her call on her birthday.

A

Has to be like: okay, hang on guys, I'm just gonna. Take this no worries anyway, um I digress. uh So for those who haven't heard, chaoscon Africa is happening next week super soon, and here is the schedule. I want to give a quick shout out to Justin Flory, who is doing the first keynote and Anita, who is doing the second Keynote, and there are some excellent topics here, I'm so excited for this.

A

um This is also going to be live streamed. So if you want to watch we're gonna, do it through the chaos YouTube channel, which is I, think a first for us, so we'll see how that goes very blessing. You're on the call is there anything you want to tell us about this. I know: I have to add some stuff to the website, which I will do today um on speaker, bios and all that, um but.

F

A

You want to I, don't I'm not to put you on the spot either. So, if there's nothing else to add, um that's totally fine too foreign.

A

You're a little choppy for me, I, don't know.

H

H

The update that we have so um yeah and you've already said everything it's going to be like stream, and you know we have amazing Kingdom. It's an amazing um talks. Lightning talks as well um also Sean will be joining us uh virtually to give a talk on August as well and um Lewis yeah, to give a talk on um for more lab, so so yeah, it's great to be an amazing event, and um we also performed for it.

A

My favorite part of the whole schedule is this that you like put in for games. I.

F

A

Love that I want I.

F

A

So much I love when things are fun because I think it just kind of is a great way to end the day and have people bond with each other and just like relax a little bit so I love that and there's so much going on here with workshops and lightning talks and discussions like I'm just super super excited for you all to have this uh happening so soon. I know it's stressful for this.

A

uh This group of folks right here, they're a little bit stressed out I think, but um it's gonna be great and I'm really excited for you is there anything that you need from the rest of the chaos Community to kind of make this happen or support you like? How can we support you? I guess is my question.

A

And that's to you Mary blessing, but you are kind of and you're muted, but you also look like you might be frozen.

C

Yeah I'll ask a few questions. One is this a free event that, with the.

A

It is not a free event, um there is a fee, but I know they have some um diversity. Access tickets, that they've been handing out.

C

And then um like does anybody have any sense of how many people are going to be there.

A

That I don't know, that's a great question: how many registrations we have so far I'm, not sure you're.

C

Curious, just because our um like chaos, cons are typically, you know, like the ones we've run prior are in the 40 to 50 range. I'd just be super curious.

A

Delight, do you happen to know or busio? Oh Mary blessings bye.

F

Hey yep, your budgets, I think the budgets or was under Expressions, so that was a budget but I don't know how many upgraded for the events or how many it's going to be present, then that's that information should be getting from Roots I think she, the one that knows all that some teams of guys that aren't doing the registrations so I think those guys also will have information about the registers.

C

All right cool, thank you.

D

Yeah I think we I think we've done uh around 80 at uh fosdum one year and close to 80 at uh in Vancouver one year as well, but I just wanted to say just a note. uh uh One year we we did do the live streaming on YouTube uh for I think it was one of the possum chaos, no I'm, sorry, it was uh uh I think it was the Seattle chaoscon.

D

uh So one thing to think about there is, if you're, going to have someone monitoring the uh the comments in YouTube or, if uh or if you want to create a slack channel to monitor those those comments. Just something to think about. uh So the people online can interact.

H

Yes, so foreign.

H

A

Excellent, so if I, if I heard you correctly I think you said, you'll have a few volunteers who are going to monitor those comments right, okay, um Kevin in your experience, was there any? Were there any? um What's the word I want any considerations or any like pain points with streaming through the YouTube, but um the chaos Africa folks might want to keep in mind.

D

Camera placement was a little bit odd for us uh because of the uh the nature of kind of webcams uh I think we had ended up for that event. I think we'd ended up putting the camera over to the uh kind of the right side, so it wasn't necessarily a kind of a centralized uh image. It worked okay, but it it. uh uh The angle was a little bit odd uh so and sometimes it could be hard to see the uh uh the presentation, the PowerPoint presentations that that may have been occurring behind it.

D

So just think about think about the camera placement to make sure you have the the right stands and things to put that in place was. That was a bit of a pain point for us, so the room we were in was uh it was not. uh It was kind of long in the wrong direction, so hopefully the room you're in is a little bit better.

A

That's great, thank you. Any other questions. Comments on chaoscon, Africa.

C

Good luck really.

A

Yeah it should, it should be great I'm super excited.

A

And I can say that having done zero to it with this organizing it so.

E

I'm, not the one.

A

That's stressed out I'm just doing the website, so I'm super excited. I know you all are also but I hope you're not um over overworked over stressed. So just let us know if we can support you in any way, we'll just leave it at that.

A

um Okay, chaoscon, North, America videos were released, everybody on the Linux Foundation. Hopefully they don't have autoplay going here. No, um so these are open to anybody. If you didn't register um you.

E

A

Still access these I guess, and so the link is in the minutes. If you want to watch, obviously they didn't record the small group discussions that happened offline but um yeah, the Keynotes and talks. Are there so I, don't think we'll be able to post these on our YouTube I think they'll have to stay here, but yeah I know I'm glad that there ours are first I, think because we were the for what the earlier one I guess, one of the earliest ones. So yeah welcome to case.

B

Can we create a playlist that links to external videos? Is that possible I.

A

Believe it is I, don't know, I can certainly look into that.

A

That would be because we usually do a playlist for um for our conferences. That would be perfect.

D

It might involve maybe going and like liking or saving the uh the video yeah.

A

Something Linux.

D

Foundation, using using the chaos account.

A

See what we can do there.

A

um Okay, the next oh.

E

A

Questions about this any of this stuff.

A

Awesome um just a quick reminder. We mentioned it last week, but um for folks who are here this.

F

A

The app ecosystem group they are meeting today um and they will meet through I think they have one one more meeting in June, maybe um but then they are going to take a summer break in July and August and then they'll come back in September. So if you were planning on attending that meeting, um you should do that today. That's what I'm saying you should do it today and maybe in two weeks, um but then you're yeah out of luck for a couple of a couple of months.

A

um Someone I think is Matt is typing that the science moved two hours earlier. Did we change the calendar or not I.

C

Thought so anyway, you're lucky delete that for a second, then I think we're just looking at a time, that's more um like inclusive for folks, like other parts of the world, yeah.

A

Because I think we have someone from Australia that wants to join. That group is that right.

C

Yeah and I think there's a pretty large contingent in Europe as well I'm just trying to find it so I think we're looking at moving the time a little bit earlier. Yeah.

A

That makes sense that makes sense. um I will check that. Do you know if they landed on a time I.

C

Don't know it's probably worth following up I'm kind of picking up that threat, because I think it was kind of going on last week, while I was out. Okay.

A

um Okay, yeah I mean I. Was there but I, don't remember.

B

A

Was so long ago, so.

B

Much has come into my video yeah yeah. If something.

A

Comes in something goes out so yeah um I can I can follow up with it, though. Oh.

D

That's probably uh that's kind of that's a bit tricky because I think a lot of those the science folks are on the uh specific time which uh does not match up well with Europe. No.

C

I think they're at least having the discussion like in the channel, so at least everyone is signing off on it. It might just be an hour earlier.

C

A

So I put in here what else and I see someone put in a fun to know this is cool. Who wants to talk about that.

G

I added this mostly because I recently learned about it and figured anyone who regularly reports metrics should also be aware of it, and it's kind of a thing that we've all recognized and was it all, but most many of us have already recognized and our own experiences of the ability to influence by publishing.

G

um But this is sort of a someone else already coined the term so I figured. It would be nice to refer to it now, if you would like to so just a good to know.

A

Yeah, we don't really have any I mean we have our data use statement about the ethical use of the data itself, but we don't really have much in the way of like how metrics can affect behaviors how to mitigate that, like we don't really give any guidance on that and I. Don't know if that's outside of Chaos's scope but um seems like it would be helpful when implementing or you know, helping folks Implement. Some of the things.

G

I've talked about it in like related talks before, but that's not really something that I've published.

D

I think in the in the past we've we've tried to be fairly agnostic about it, because there's we can't really control how people use metrics in the real world. uh On our end, when we, when we're we can, we can try to Define them in such a way that uh you know they can't be gamed uh but I. Don't uh I I think that's a bit of a losing battle, so I mean we could we could think about it when we're defining it, but just the realization is once they're once they're out in the world.

D

They're they're gonna be game to a certain degree, so I I think we kind of have to be a little agnostic about how they're used and just uh kind of give our.

D

This is the this is our intent right share our intent rather than.

A

Yeah I'm just wondering if it maybe maybe it would even just be a blog post about some of the pitfalls or um you know um red flags or I, don't know how we would want to call it, but just some some things to consider when implementing and just like General like here's.

A

This there's, like you just said, Kevin people game metric, because I'm just thinking of folks that aren't experts in this field like if they are more software developers, they're running a project and they want like they've, never done that before, like maybe they don't really quite understand the. How you know the psychology behind implementing metrics and measuring things so I don't know.

A

Maybe that's maybe again yeah, like you, said, Kevin, it's kind of out of our our scope, but um I don't know it might be kind of interesting to provide some kind of guidance for folks.

D

It's it's definitely important to share our intent when we, when we're creating this metrics right I, think we do that through the objectives right. So we share our intent and when we're creating these metrics we're creating them for for positive reasons. So, if they're being used uh they're being used in other ways, that would that was not our intent.

A

Matrix by Jerry, Z, Muller and I think that maybe we just have a thing of like recommended reading, or you know something like that. That's just like a general kind of like hey. If.

E

You're gonna get into this world.

A

And you don't have any experience at all. Here's a good place to start before you kind of try to implement and change all the things and.

H

Move all the levers.

A

And affect everything in your community: here's some good places to start references I like that I, like that chaos, book club, I,.

C

Would do it, it's probably a good book to read to be honest with you, I've never read it, and it would probably be a great book for us to reach to understand what the Mounds are and how we talk.

B

About metrics that.

C

Would be great.

A

Thank you, I mean I, know like our job, isn't necessarily to teach everyone about all the things all the time, but um I don't know I mean if people are coming to us. As you know the metrics place, and this is where the comp you know the conversations happen- I mean it might be nice to have that little extra of like pointing them to things or or opening it up to anybody who wants to join our book club. If we do do a book club be.

G

Fun I sort of love the idea of a book club like not a regular one but like I, don't know. Maybe every couple of months we give like 10 minutes to talk about a book, but like I'm, already thinking about a couple that I've crossed my desk, that I really for anyone who works in the data and analytical space. I think like data feminism, I really liked, and also just like, like things like that, that would be awesome to talk about in the space or related data and Analysis problems.

G

Face is big, so I don't know I kind of like it, um not that we want to start one right now, but.

A

I was just gonna say if we have someone that is super passionate about it and wants to take that idea and run with it like I am a thousand percent behind it.

C

I'm looking a way to make sure the book would be freely available to everybody, so anybody could join so I was just looking up anyway. I could look at that. Okay,.

A

I'm gonna put an action item for you: Matt.

E

Thank you did I not spell that.

A

Right, oh the available. Sorry grammarly.

A

All right so we'll see how that goes. Do you want to we'll just talk about it again next week and we'll just see how it goes? I love it I feel like there. We've talked about a book club in the past, but it's been a long time and I, don't remember it being something relatable. It was something like random that we were. Somebody read a good book that was.

F

A

Or something I think and we were like ah we should do a book on, but then it promptly died that idea, but this would be really applicable, I think to us and if we could, you know, have it available to everybody. It'd be great.

I

Okay, hi Matt, you could check um Z, Library I, think at C library all books are available for everyone. So if that could help yeah.

C

I'll definitely do that and I'll I was seeing if there was like a digital version of it as well.

I

Yeah there is, it has an app. So if you just download the app I feel like there is really all books out there, so that might help yeah.

B

I

You can just download the PDF e-pop from Z Library.

B

Right on okay, thank you.

I

A

Thanks for sale.

A

um Okay, I think we have about eight minutes left uh Matt. Did you put this in here.

C

For folks that coming out of the metrics model, working group I'd put this in general as well. The um we're looking at at ways to kind of connect, two repositories, two different repositories in two different orgs such that If, a metric model changes the markdown changes on a metric model. It will trigger an action to post an issue in that other repository in another org, so that they know that there's a change in a metric model.

C

This came from the compass community that has the compass, software and they've been deploying a lot of the chaos metric models, and it's just you get the idea just they want to know if something changes in a model, particularly if there's a new metric added or a metric deleted, um and then there was a response. There were a couple responses that indicated that this does seem like it's possible and that link right.

C

There is a link to the metrics model Channel where venue has kind of raised the question and if you would like to participate in kind of working on this, um I just wanted to bring this forward for folks.

A

I think that would be super super helpful and there might be other applications too, where, if a change happens in a metric, maybe the metric model needs to know also I.

E

Don't know yep.

A

But that would be really cool if anyone could figure that out or if we have a team of folks to work on that it'd be awesome.

A

Is that do you know, I haven't looked at the thread, but do you know if that's something that just happens in GitHub or like.

C

It looked like there was a tool to somebody that would basically the action would trigger this tool is written, and then that would take care of this okay.

A

Because I was just thinking, is somebody have to write this from scratch.

E

C

A different GitHub repo, where it looks like there's some prior code written.

A

Yeah that'd be cool.

A

Okay, we got six minutes anything else on people's minds.

C

All good with me.

A

Going once going twice all right, well, I hope you all have a really good day and um we'll see you here same time. Next week, the smiles on our faces ready to uh to hang out, see you later, everybody hey.

C