►
From YouTube: CHIPS Alliance - Analog Working Group - 2021-09-14
Description
No description was provided for this meeting.
If this is YOUR meeting, an easy way to fix this is to add a description to your video, wherever mtngs.io found it (probably YouTube).
A
So
let
me
let
me
go
ahead
and
start
here.
So
thanks
for
joining
everyone,
and
it
gives
me
great
pleasure
to
introduce
muhammad
kasim.
I
think
most
of
you
know
him
from
the
fabulous,
but
mom
is
going
to
be
taking
over
leadership
of
the
analog
work
group,
which
I'm
excited
to
announce
to
folks,
and
I
think
that's
a
great
step
forward
to
help
us
move
the
group
forward.
I
think,
there's
a
lot
of
challenges
in
analog
front.
A
I
know
there's
a
lot
of
interest
in
terms
of
doing
some
open
source
collaborative
work
on
design
and
we've
had
some
great
presentations
on
different
research
efforts
in
analog
tools.
I
know
professor
stein
from
oklahoma
has
a
presentation
to
share
on
their
experience
with
the
sky,
130
pdk
and
doing
that
design
work.
But
with
that,
let
me
introduce
muhammad,
let
you
take
over
muhammad.
Thank
you.
B
Well,
thank
you
very
much
rob
and
actually
it's
a
pleasure
to
be
a
part
of
that
forum,
and
I
you
know
I
just
wanted
to
you
know
to
express
that
my
passion
for
this
goes
a
long
way
back.
I
used
to
work
with
texas
instruments
at
the
the
wireless
analog
technology
center.
We,
I
was
responsible,
interestingly
enough
from
the
year
2000
to
the
year,
2011
on
bringing
advanced
analog
on
when
180
was
advanced
in
year
2000
and
when
20
was
advanced
in
year
2010..
B
So
I
had
the
pleasure
to
be
a
part
of
that
team.
Working
with
ti
was
very
interesting
because
they
had
their
own
technology
and
they
developed
their
own
specifications
for
the
process.
B
So
I
had
the
pleasure
also
be
a
part
of
the
of
the
the
mill
that
defines
the
components
like
even
transistors
new
transistors
for
analog,
or
things
like
that.
This
is
a
luxury
that
I
don't
know
we're
gonna
have
this
again,
but
but
it
was
something
that's
amazing
to
be
side
by
side
working
with
the
process
teams
and
the
eda
teams,
as
well
as
the
soc
teams.
So
so
my
background
goes
a
long
way
in
antelope,
especially
on
the
cmos
during
that
period
of
10
years
of
uti.
B
B
We
would
have
to
come
up
with
designs
that
work,
so
we
can
characterize
them
and
feedback
that
their
characterization
into
the
models
and
or
the
or
the
prediction
system,
the
models,
the
simulation,
etc
the
simulators
and
then
and
then
refine.
So
you
get
a
lot
of
experience.
Obviously
you
know
this
is
something
that
probably
all
of
you
will
relate
to
you've
done
something
like
that
in
the
past,
or
still
doing
it.
So
we
had
to
automate,
because
I
can't
just
they
change
the
model.
B
They
change
something
in
the
uncertain
environment,
there's
something
the
automation
was
always
verticalized
and
targeted
was
no
generic
remission
and
which
is
that
brought
me
to
a
lot
of
exposure
to
even
the
companies
that
had
the
automation
back.
Then
you
know
in
me
in
the
market.
B
So
we
have
individual
companies
that
actually
act
as
entities
as
in
inside
the
marketplace,
and
they
can
do
design
services.
They
can
develop
something
new
and
all
our
eda
infrastructure.
When
we
started
the
company
we
wanted
to
give
them
an
sdk
and
an
environment
that
they
can
design
and
they
when
we
give
them
that
environment
I,
in
order
to
be
affordable
and
possible,
it
had
to
be
open
source.
So
we
developed
a
complete.
B
We
put
together
a
complete
analog
mixed
signal
flow
and
and
mixed
signal,
and
also
digital
flow
back
in
before
the
open
road
it
used
to
be
called
qflow
and
we
developed
several
chips
for
customers
using
only
open
source
eda,
and
because
of
that,
when
we
started
publishing
that
in
different
forums
in
the
chips
alliance
and
risk
five
workshops
and
other
conferences,
people
like
google
started
looking
at
noticing
that
it
is
possible
that
you
can
develop
a
chip
from
a
to
z,
with
open
source
eda,
and
so
we're
not
an
eda
company
but
at
the
same
time
we're
not
competing
with
eda
companies.
B
Because
eda
companies
came
to
us
later
and
say
I
want
to
put
my
tools
aside
side
by
side
to
the
open
source
tools
because
potentially
can
sell
my
tools.
However,
that's
that's
a
side
effect,
but
my
we.
We
have
a
lot
of
experience
with
open
source
with
creating
commercial
chips
with
open
source,
eda,
analog
or
digital,
and
this
was
the
pleasure.
This
was
the
the
passion
that
I
had
for
the
last
few
years
is
to
build
a
platform
like
this
until
the
sky
water
process.
B
I
was
actually
part
of
the
push
for
it,
so
I
was
working
closely
with
tim
ansel
until
tim
ansel
got
the
money
and
from
google
and
then
now
we're
working
with
sky
water
with
the
open
source
pdk.
But
we
also
have
global
foundries
and
it's
not
open
source,
but
we
have
global
foundries
and
we
have
xfab.
So
I
had
the
the
lux
the
pleasure
or
the
luck
to
to
be
a
part
of
a
lot
of
learning
in
both
the
world,
the
open
source
and
advanced,
so-called
advanced
proprietary
back
in
ti
days.
B
A
So
thanks
mohamed,
so
any
thoughts.
You
know,
I
think
it's
you
know
we're
at
a
point
you
know
about
chatting
about
where
you
know
the
group
should
go
and
you
know
maybe
some
goals
and
some
different
collaboration
topics.
I
know
you
mentioned
some
about
the
sky
138k
and
go
ahead.
B
B
So
we
were
just
having
a
call
earlier
and
basically
it's
characterized
by
silos
and
people
doing
the
same
thing
in
parallel
everywhere
inside
the
companies
and
collaboration
is
not
encouraged
in
general,
except
through
watching
papers
or
things
like
that,
without
divulging
a
lot
of
them.
So
there
is
a
a
component
here
that
we're
trying
to
solve
a
problem
or
to
to
for
in
a
world
that
is
used
to
something
else.
B
Okay,
the
chips
alliance,
being
a
part
of
the
linux
foundation,
is
seated
in
the
right
place
because
it's
linux
foundation,
with
the
objective
of
providing
resources,
open
source
resources
to
build
chips.
If
we
say
chips
in
my
opinion
to
get
the
world
to
move
around,
you
need
to
bridge
all
the
way
to
showing
that
there
is
a
chip
that
actually
someone
solved
the
real
problem
with
it,
and
we
have
an
example
like
a
a
chip
called
raven.
B
Raven
was
actually
used
by
nec
to
develop
a
security
pro
professor
processor
co-processor
and
that
chip
they
used
to
define
a
new
chip.
So
we
developed
a
new
chip
and
nec
in
that
case,
wanted
an
open
source
chip
for
security
reasons
simple,
and
so
we
there
are
new
trends
on
that.
So
that
can
help
us.
The
chips
alliance
needs
to
put
out
lead.
In
that
case,
because
I
mean
I
think
it
should
be
leading
based
on
the
mission
or
the
even
the
definition
of
the
the
chips
alliance.
B
Then
we
need
to
start
putting
some
soft,
I
said
before
road
maps.
I
don't
want
it
to
be
a
business.
I
I
wouldn't
want
it
to
be
a
business.
We
wouldn't
want
to
be
directly
a
business,
even
though
I'm
e-fabulous
as
a
business,
but
I
believe
in
the
innovation
needs
to
be
seated
but
not
tightly
guided.
It
needs
to
be
diver
like
divergent
and
it
allows
people
to
collaborate.
So
I
see
that
we
should
be
able
to
with
automation
or
not
reach
build
set
of
building
blocks.
B
B
There
are
different
things
that
you
actually
to
make
something
useful.
So
if
you
build
a
series
today,
it's
a
good
contribution.
B
Thank
you
and
we
would
do
that,
but
that's
not
only
that
it
would
be
useful
for
in
a
specific
area
which
is
great,
but
I
think
looking
at
the
group
here
and
the
capabilities
of
the
chips
alliance
and
the
members
of
the
chips
alliance,
we
should
be
able
to
come
up
with,
and
I
and
I'm
I'm
not
gonna
say
that
I
know
that
roadmap
hundred
percent-
I'm
just
using
examples.
B
So
I
would
wanna
collaboratively
put
it
together
and
then
have
thoughts
from
you
and
we
we
can
pull
on
resources
outside
us
companies
or
individuals
and
try
to
prove
within.
Let's
say
right
now,
we're
september
in
2021,
let's
say
within
a
year
we
would
have
a
couple
of
things
that
are
introduced
in
the
open
source
and
widely
used
by
the
open
source
community.
So
this
is
that
would
be,
I
didn't
say
what
they
are,
because
I
think
that's
a
subject
to
our
discussion
and
I
really
it's
going
to
be
a
learning
experience
mostly
for
me.
A
I
think
learning
experiences
are
good
and
I
think
that's
for
true
for
all
of
us.
So
the
no
thanks.
Thank
you
for
your
comments.
So
so
one
of
the
things
I
you
know
had
listed,
you
know,
I
think,
back
to
the
initial
meeting
that
we
had
quite
a
while
back
now,
which
you
would
articulate
at
the
time
what
really
was
creating
like
a
I
call,
a
collaborative
road
map,
straw,
man
or
a
soft
road
map
right
of
trying
to
establish
some
goals
for
the
group.
A
You
know,
as
I
said
at
the
opening,
we've
had
a
number
of
presentations
on
some
of
the
work
being
done
in
research
on
automating
analog
and
I
think
that's
a
great
opportunity
for
different
participants.
But
maybe
we
opened
up
for
a
conversation
here
about
some
different
ideas
for
for
a
soft
roadmap,
and
you
know
I'm
taking
notes
here,
but
you
know
just
some
things
that
I've
listed
down.
You
know
some
thoughts.
One
is
you
know
to
talk
about
industrial
challenges,
analog
design
methodology
and
eda,
tooling,
user
challenges,
methodology
sharing,
best
practices.
A
That
could,
of
course,
vary
based
upon
the
in
the
methodology
by
block
type
circuits.
You
mentioned
this
a
bit
about
having
figure
of
merit
test
cases.
The
universities
generally
have
pretty
strong
test
cases
in
that
space
or
different
types
of
benchmarking.
That
could
be
seated.
A
Oh
all,
right,
sorry,
I
could
just
share
this.
You
know
an
idea.
Elsa
was
you
know,
partic,
maybe
like
an
ip
catalog
or
collaboration
areas.
We
already
mentioned
a
bit
about.
You
know
a
ddr
type
controller,
which
you
know
I
know
we've.
There
is
some
interest
in
the
community
on
this
and
that
could
either
be
done
say
in
the
open
pdk
which
there's
you
know.
A
A
number
of
supporters
in
that
idea,
but
depending
upon
the
objectives
of
of
the
block
or
the
performance
of
the
block,
gf12
might
be
a
better
interest
or
choice
for
that
right.
B
B
You
know
the
memories,
the
you
know,
interfaces
the
analog
in
general
wireless,
and
so,
if
we
take
this
and
start
crossing
things
and
say,
okay
or
either,
what
I'd
like
to
suggest
is
that
we
would
have
a
working
version
of
this
to
to
to
define
the
areas
that
should
exist.
Okay,
probably
software
should
be
a
software.
Ip
should
be
somewhere
here
too
for
system,
because
obviously
this
is
a
very
old
2015
slide.
B
There
is
the
so
we
can
use
that
open
start
using
that
as
an
initial
seed
and
then
build
on
it
and
with
different
components.
We
also
should
tap
into
the
world.
Is
that
the
you
know
like,
for
example,
things
like
open
cores?
B
You
know
the
they
actually
they're
under
represented
and
underestimated,
because
that,
when
you
look
at
their
there's
a
subs,
they
have
thousands
of
members.
I
think
300
000
members,
so
it's
a
community
for
but
it's
a
digital
based
mostly,
but
you
know
there
we
can
leverage
some
of
that
into
our
analog.
B
B
To
digital
world
and
with
wrappers
and
things
like
that,
so
there
are
multiple
things
that
we
can
talk
about.
So
I'd
like
to
pull
back
now
and
then
just
come
back
to
the
same
picture
that
I
the
the
picture
that
I
shared
with
the
and
say
you
know
what
is
whether
automated
or
not,
first
to
start
and
then
automation
comes
into
layers
and
this
you
can
start
on
the
right
hand.
B
B
We
can
build
an
open
source
ip
on
plug
manager,
but
we
don't
have
to
publish
the
gds
because
we
can't,
but
we
can
publish
schematics,
for
example,
you
know,
and
so
and-
and
maybe
you
know
certain
views
of
the
layout-
you
know
stuff
like
this,
so
I'll
stop
again.
D
D
What
I
believe
is
a
prerequisite
is
to
have
a
common
understanding
about
the
methodology,
so
also
to
have
a
roadmap
about
a
kind
of
standard
that
we
all
can
agree
on
that
links
all
together,
because
if
we
don't
have
this
and
today
we
don't
have
it
at
least
I
don't
see
it.
A
lot
of
people
are
working
on
it,
since
it's
many.
E
D
Years
and
but
usually
I
what
I
see
are
point
solutions,
and
there
are
good
ones
and
they're,
not
so
good
ones,
and
my
expectation
to
this
working
group
would
be,
or
my
wish
would
be,
that
we
find
a
way
to
agree
all
on
on
a
kind
of
framework
that
is
as
open
as
possible,
but
as
as
close
as
is
needed
to
support
this
idea
that
that
all
companies
and
and
universities
can
do
a
development
and
and
also
exchange
things.
So
in
digital,
it's
much
easier.
D
They
already
have
this
kind
of
standard
and
you're
all
aware
if
they
have
a
very
local
system,
verilog
or
vhdl
in
analog.
It's
it's
much
more
complex
today,
and
this
is,
I
believe,
because
of
lack
of
standardization
here
in
terms
of
methodology
and
the
second
point,
what
I
believe
is
very
important.
You
already
mentioned
that
technology
usually
will
stay
proprietary
or
confidential.
B
So
actually
yeah
I
mean
you
hit
under
without
standards,
so
we
can't
collaborate,
that's
the
one
of
the
most.
If
you
there
are
implicit
standards
like
spice
when
somebody
represents
a
schematic,
but
there
are
standards,
there's
a
need
for
more
like,
for
example,
and
I
actually
because
I
was
responsible
for
ip
development
part
of
the
company
we
had
to
have
standards
internally,
we
were
like
150
people
developing,
so
many
ip
blocks
for
different.
B
So
the
analog
here,
obviously
we
all
know
if
someone
says
that
I
designed
an
amplifier
or
an
adc.
The
next
question
is:
if
you
really
want
it
to
be
useful,
well,
so
what
okay?
Is
it
statistically
optimized
is
it?
You
know,
you
know
you
start
pushing
the
limits,
and
we
all
here.
I
believe
this
group
would
be
not
that
foreign
to
that.
So
yes,
standards
are
are,
are,
are
a
must.
B
B
So
if
you
see
that
ladder
that
130
nanometer
is
open
and
then
all
the
way
to
12
nanometer
is
not
open,
we
could
actually
have
something
like
a
staircase
like
this.
With
parts
are
open
and
parts
are
not
open,
and
then
we
we
can.
We
can
define
that
together
and
also
the
I
will
bring
in
our
experience
specifically
for
e-tablets.
We
have
obfuscated
the
pdk
for
those
who
don't
want
to
open
source
it
that
they
want
other
people
to
use
it
without
an
nda.
B
A
A
I
was
chatting
with
a
professor
yesterday
actually,
and
so
he
had
an
interesting
observation
which
was
this
is
that
you
know,
if
you
hand
me
a
digital
circuit,
even
something
simple
as
a
nand
gate,
standard
cell
nand
gate,
I'm
likely
to
trust
that
you
know
I
take
your
word
for
it
that
it
it
works.
But
if
you
hand
me
an
analog
circuit
like
an
operational
amplifier,
it's
like
I'm
not
going
to
trust
you
at
all.
A
I'm
going
to
have
to
verify
the
thing
myself
and
make
sure
that
it's
going
to
work
for
my
situation,
so
I
think,
having
a
standardized
approach,
standardized
metrics
as
to
how
these
things
are
done
would
be
beneficial.
The
other
thought
I
would
add
is-
and
I
don't
know
if
this
is
possible-
because
I,
having
worked
for
large
companies
myself
many
years
and
understanding
some
of
the
challenges-
is
that
you
know
if
some
of
the
different
member
companies
could
share
some
of
their
experience
and
or
what
their
methodology
is
in
analog.
A
B
Yeah,
I
I
agree
and
e-fabulous
will
be
the
first
one
one
of
the
first.
At
least
I
mean
I,
I
will
spare
no
no
effort
in
terms
of
the
sharing,
what
we
think
what
we
experienced
and
then
obviously
it's
not
methodology
is
there's
no
right
or
wrong,
but
there
is
there
is
assumptions
and
in
what
you
do
with
the
assumptions
and
how
you
so
we
can.
Certainly,
we
should
certainly
do
that.
C
Can
I
jump
into
the
section
so
maybe
I'll
turn
on
my
video.
So
basically,
several
of
us
are
involved
with
darpa
programs,
and
there
has
been
some
effort
to
try
and
collect
a
bunch
of
benchmarks
and
so
on.
So
some
of
that
could
potentially
be
reused
over
here.
C
One
of
the
sticking
points
is
how
much
information
you
can
release-
and
I
think
muhammad
talked
about
that
to
some
extent,
if
you're
working
with
sky
130
there's
basically
no
problem
releasing
anything.
But
realistically,
if
you
look
at
where
the
tools
are
among
this
community
right
now,
we
are
mostly
looking
at
layout
tools,
whether
it's
david's
tools
or
our
tools
or
the
michigan
tools,
etc.
C
That
if
you
look
at
basically
going
from
a
much
the
equivalent
for
open
codes,
is
going
from
rtl
to
a
gds
right.
So
we
we
don't
have
a
way
of
going
to
the
rtl
equivalent
of
analog
all
the
way
to
gds.
If
you
can
basically
get
a
size
net
list,
for
example,
then
you
can
go
on
from
there
and
that
would
be
a
reasonable
place
to
start
so
now.
C
The
question
is:
what
can
you
kind
of
released
publicly
so
during
the
discussions
during
the
in
these
dark
programs,
we
there
was
some
nervousness
even
about
releasing
size
net
lists
because
of
nervousness
about
whether
you
can
put
out
anything
on
gf12,
for
example,
that's
sized,
so
I
think
we'll
have
to
overcome
things
like
that
from
sky.
That
might
be
a
reasonable
place
to
start
and
then
take
it
from
there.
Yeah.
B
So
one
of
the
things
that
I
think
I'll
bring
to
the
table
is
is
the
I
am
personally
involved
in
the
circles
in
influencing
other.
I
get
the
pleasure
of
that.
You
know
again,
I'm
not.
I.
B
B
They're
early
nodes,
they're
they're
still
in
the
early
world,
but
it's
a
second
foundry
and
then
the
same
foundry,
I'm
talking
to
them
about
the
hybrid
model,
where
how
can
the
size
net
list
who's
concerned?
Is
that
the
the
foundry
or
is
it
the
tool
provider
that
was
used?
So
all
of
that
would
factor
in
I
learned
one
thing:
don't
do
something
wrong
that
will
ruin
the
the
division
by
having
getting
you
know.
B
B
In
now
they
had
to
be
done
right,
working
with
cyprus
and
company
to
be
able
to
get
that
done
legally
okay
and
convince
the
right
parties
and
address
the
right
concerns.
So
I
don't
have
a
you
know
anything.
The
only
thing
I
can
say
is
that
the
world
is
getting
is
getting
attention
by
the
value
of
open
source.
You
see
the
spikes
of
designs
and
that
would
like
to
say
that
the
more
we
emphasize
and
show
success
on
the
number
of
designs,
the
quality
of
designs
in
the
context
of
130
or
the
open
processes.
D
D
F
Can
I
just
say
30
seconds,
I
value
everyone's
opinions
here
and
I
think
we
all
need
to
work
together
as
like
a
collective
effort
towards
what
muhammad
is
talking
about,
because
I
think
we
all
have
a
vested
interest
in
helping
each
other,
and
I
know
I'm
very
committed
to
helping
everyone
and
I
think,
the
more
that
we
can
help
together
the
better
we
will
be
as
researchers
as
well
as
collaborators.
F
B
A
Well,
I
think
it's
really
the
main
thing
you
know
one
was
to
introduce
you,
but
then
also
to
try
to
establish
a
road
map
or
start
working
towards
ideas
for
a
road
map,
and
that's
what
you
know
I
wanted
to
get
some
inputs.
I
appreciate
christoph's
thoughts
relative
to
from
infineon
and
methodology
and
also
sashimi's
comments
on.
You
know:
f
figure
of
merit,
type
circuits
and
challenges
involved
there.
You
know,
I
guess
the
other
topic
I
had
on
there
was
to
discuss
to
see
if
it
would
be
possible
and
again.
B
B
B
What
do
we
have
today
and
can
actually
put
a
a
strong
statement
like
I'll
tell
you
an
example
and,
and
that's
just
an
example-
I'm
not
saying
it's
good
or
bad
or
so
I'm
sure
every
other
people
here
are
very
involved
in
different
examples
and
we'll
have
different
views
of
that
like,
for
example,
the
fa
sock.
B
In
again,
irrespective
of
the
position
on
the
sock,
there
is
a
silicon
that
was
put
on
mpw1,
for
example,
for
google
when
the
silicon
comes
out
and
it
gets
measured
and
published.
That
is
a
good
data
point
to
support
that
now
it
should
be
improved.
Should
it
be
a
different
process
should
it
be,
but
that's
a
longing
fruit
that
actually
can
be
done
on
sky
water,
for
example.
B
G
Rich
portfolio
thanks
mohammed
for
bringing
up
fa
stock,
so
we
actually
did
a
couple
tape,
outs
in
65,
sky,
water,
130
and
pw1
and
2
and
gf12,
and
we
are
currently
measuring
silicon
on
gf12
and
we
are
expecting
another
silicon
which
is
going
to
come
back
around
november
or
december.
G
So
we
taped
out
different
blocks,
stem
sensors,
ldos,
plls
and
dc-dc
converters
like
right.
Now,
I'm
measuring
the
dc
dc
and
I'm
reaching
about
75
efficiency
at
like
one
milliamp,
which
is
great.
You
know
for
a
generator.
G
We
use
a
fully
digital
flow
which
uses
place
and
route
and
right
now
we
are
moving
to
open
roads.
So
you
know
this
is
I
mean?
I'm
I'm
pretty
happy
about
the
results.
We
are
including
sachin's
align
tool
to
make
the
aux
cells.
If
you
guys
remember
how
the
fsoc
flow
work.
H
G
I
I
just
want
to
add
to
muhammad's
feedback.
B
I
know
we
already
started
like
rob.
We
had
the
presentations,
people
were
presenting
what
they're
doing
in
areas,
but
it
I'd
like
to.
Maybe
I,
as
I
said,
I
will
come
back
and
recalibrate
on
these
presentations,
because
I
I
didn't
attend
a
lot
of
them
and
then
also
come
and
individually
work.
You
know
extract
some
information
on
what
are
potentially
suggested
low
hanging
fruits
like
this
in
the
different
members
of
the
group,
and
what
else
do
we
need
from
the
world
of
industry
or
community.
E
Hey
dan
friedman
from
berkeley
here
welcome.
Muhammad
I'm
welcome,
I
think,
you'll
be
great
fit
with
the
group
here.
E
Thank
you,
the
I
think,
echoing
a
lot
of
the
comments
so
far,
it
sounds
like
there's
some
tension
in
what
this
group
is
for
between
kind
of
producing
circuits,
producing
methodology
or
what
mix
thereof
on
the.
What
I
think
we're
referring
to
is
methodology
front.
I
think
the
one
element
I
would
really
point
to
is
a
medium
medium
of
exchange
for
these
circuits.
E
So
we've
cited
the
trouble
with
that,
particularly
with
the
proprietary
pdks
and
we've
sort
of
pointed
to
the
halcyon
open
source
software
industry
as
a
better
a
better
way,
and
I
agree
it's
a
better
way,
but
I
would
point
out
that
first,
a
couple
of
things,
one
mostly
open
source
software
getting
distributed
into
worlds-
is
generally
happening
through
some
structured
packaging
process
right.
E
We've
had
attempted
that
I
think
they've
been
more
successful
for
the
fpga
and
digital
space
and
certainly
within
companies,
there's
something
like
this
right.
It's
usually
just
kind
of
a
file
layout
thing
right,
so
I
was
at
apple
for
from
2009
to
19.
I
could
say
first
hand,
that's
their
quote.
Unquote
flow.
I
suspect
some
of
the
commentary
from
earlier
was
referring
to
something
similar,
so
that
is
that
ties
into
the
notion
you
mentioned
of
abstracting
away
the
proprietary
stuff.
E
Perhaps
you
know
muhammad
mentioned,
the
fabulous
has
something
worth
using
there.
If
not
perhaps
it's
worth
someone
in
this
group
developing
and
then
on
the
as
far
as
the
circuit
content,
I
think
that
we're
right
to
focus
on
kind
of
the
broadest
most
reusable
building
blocks.
First
for
putting
the
stuff
into
action.
Now
we
wouldn't
necessarily
be
building
whole
chips.
This
is
the
analog
working
group.
E
There
won't
be
much
more
than
sort
of
demos,
but
building
them
to
the
level
that
we
can
make
something
useful,
whether
it's
for
you
know
kind
of
an
iot
level,
processor
type
of
chip
or
whatever
other
bigger
application.
We
can
imagine
them
going
into
so
I
think,
while
you
know,
as
on
the
academic
front,
we've
got
a
lot
of
incentive
to
do
kind
of
bleeding
edge
research.
There
is,
it
is
a
little
bit
across
purposes
with
making
these
sort
of
general
purpose
things.
E
So
perhaps
the
the
best
approach,
then,
is
you
know
each
of
the
institutions
has
kind
of
a
novel
tool
chain
and
directing
them
towards
some.
More
of
these
more
kind
of
mainline
use
cases
is
the
best.
The
best
thrust
of
the
gang
here.
B
So
I'll
tell
you
an
exam.
Thank
you
I'll
tell
you
an
example
that
reinforces
what
you
just
said.
So
I'm
just
sharing
a
picture.
So
these
chips
here
these
were
tips
that
e-fab
list
created
with
open
source
eda,
and
this
the
the
the
three
the
top
two.
This
is
the
one
in
the
top
right
is
an
arm
based
exhaust
180.
This
is
raven,
which
is
risk
five
base
180.
B
This
is
again
risk
5
based
on
nec,
I
mentioned
commercially,
was
actually
interested
in
raven
and
ravenna,
which
is
still
in
180,
but
they
used
it
in
core
processing.
How
I
define
draven?
Here's
what
I
did.
I
just
went,
and
I
said
okay,
I
need
to
send
something.
I
need
to
send
some
data
and
I
came
up
with
this
within
five
minutes
and
not
that
it's
you
know
magic,
it's
just
a
basic
use
case.
B
Okay,
that
has
enough
that
was
actually
useful
to
a
company
like
nfc
for
something
okay,
they
would
do
audio
sampling
in
this
case,
and
then
they
had
a
little
bit
of.
We
were
able
to
put
some
key,
you
know
authentication
and
then
so
we
could.
I
Certainly,
muhammad
I'm
sorry,
I
can't
join
the
date
I
so
I
joined
a
little
shortly
before
8
30.,
so
dan
brought
a
you
know
very
important
point,
something
that
we
have
been
spending
time
on
somewhat
related
to
an
idolatry.
That's
been
discussed.
I
That
thing
when
somebody
says
that
the
api
is
proprietary
that
makes
it
really
difficult
to
define
this
layer
of
sharing.
Has
there
been
any
thought
put
into
that
other
than
well?
Let's,
we
are
all
just
going
to
switch
over
to
open
source
tools,
because
open
source
tools
are
not
at
the
level
of
what
cadence
can
do
and
it
will
you
know
eventually
they'll
get
there,
but
I'm
getting
giving
it.
You
know
if
there
is
a
concerted
effort,
maybe
a
decade
or
more.
B
Thank
you,
and
this
is
why
I
actually
said
with
or
without
automation,
so
we
could
both
target
the
actual
outcome
and
the
automation
to
reach
the
outcome,
so
we
could
develop.
There's
no
reason
you
couldn't
develop
something
with
a
commercial
tool
that
it
would
be
it's
under
like
like
the
stuff,
that's
happening
on
the
on
the
google
nbw.
Some
of
that
work
has
been
designed
with
open
with
the
proprietary
tools,
but
it
will
be
open
source.
I
So
there
is,
if
you
read
the
your
license.
B
I
So
I
mean
it:
it's
all
fine.
If
nobody
gets
sued
but
it
you
know
there
may
be
a
takedown
request.
I
A
A
Do
you
think
that
it
would
be
possible
to
create
an
abstraction
layer
over
some
of
these
things
to
create?
In
other
words,
what
I'm
thinking
here
is
create,
like
a
reference
methodology
flow
using
an
abstract
api
that
could
then
be
instantiated
to
a
particular
target
supplier,
presuming
that
one
had
the
necessary
license
agreements
in
place,
or
it
could
also
target
to
an
open
source
flow
as
well.
But
I
don't
know
if
you
unders,
if
that
makes
sense
what
I'm
saying,
but
or
if
we
get
in
trouble
with
that
too.
B
So
one
point
to
add
here:
I
know
it's
a
stretch
and
I'm
I
won't
say
that
the
only
thing
I
would
say
is
that
when
I
started
the
company
everybody
was
saying
you
will
never
be
able
to
do
anything
with
open
source
tools
ever
so
we
we
did
sim
like
raven
is
a
is
a
simple
chip.
It's
not
a
map,
it's
not
a
100
million
gigs
right.
So
we
have
to.
B
We
have
to
say
that,
but
the
I
am
getting
attention
to
say
from
companies
to
say
is
there
a
way
that
open
source
design
can
help
me
in
the
eda
world
that
you
get
a
company
like
synopsis
or
cadence?
Or
so
there
are
discussions
ongoing
trust
me.
The
world
has
changed
when
people
did
that
it
started
recently,
people
are
thinking.
How
do
I
make?
How
do
I
align
my
business
to
with
this
wave?
That
is,
gonna
go
so
I've
heard
stuff
like
this.
B
That
was
now,
that's
obviously
hurt
this
somebody's
telling
me
something
and
nothing
happens
until
it
happens,
but
it's
that
would
help
over
time,
along
with
the
abstraction
like
rob
and
borah.
So.
A
Let
me
just
let
me
ask
some
of
our
our
friends
here
in
from
the
commercial
side,
so
I
know-
and
you
know
my
earlier
lives,
you
know,
and
I'm
sure
this
is
true
for
for
all
of
you
too,
that
you
get
eda
applications
from
all
the
major
suppliers
and
some
minor
suppliers
too,
and
we
found
in
terms
of
developing
different
design
flows
which
have
a
life
of
their
own.
I
think,
as
all
of
us
know,
for
for
better
or
worse,
but
that
creating
an
abstract
api.
A
I
say
for
like
place
router
as
an
example
that
it
would
allow
us
to
switch
between
a
ic,
compiler
solution
versus
a
innovus
solution.
So
has
anyone
done
anything
like
that
say
like
infineon
or
western
digital?
I'm
just
curious.
D
E
D
F
Stepped
on
somebody
go
ahead,
so
rob
we
actually
developed
one
here
and
we're
kind
of
like
stuck
well.
We
don't
have
a
lawyer
that
we
can
really
hire
out
to
do
that,
so
we've
developed
one
with
python
and
that
can
change
between
different
texts
and
then
we've
tried
it
within
events
and
it
works,
but
maybe
something
that
would
help
that
would
facilitate
legal.
You
know
kind
of
contacts
or
something
that
would
help.
B
B
He
said
how
I
said
I'll
start
without
the
skating,
the
pdk,
that's
that
was
excellent,
not
the
idiot
and
they
the.
But
that
was
the
the
ceo
basically
he's
he
got
it.
He
says
well,
if
you're
successful,
then
we
sell
more
so
so
it
depends
on
how,
but
I
think
the
group
here
can
define,
can
articulate
something
that
we
can
put
through
the
collective
network
and
the
chips
alliance.
B
I
Sorry
I
lost
the
internet
for
about
90
seconds,
I'm
back
so
regarding
the
that
higher
level
intermediate
layer,
that's
what
we
are
doing
with
digital
tools
through
through
hammer,
we
still
cannot
publish.
I
How
does
that
map
to
commercial
tools,
although
I'm
seeing
you
know
there
are
plenty
of
github
repositories
now
that
do
contain
that
information
and
they
have
not
been
as
diligent
with
takedown
requests
that
that
I've
seen
I
mean
this
stuff
has
persist,
persisted
for
at
least
six
months
or
so
we'll
see.
How
does
that
go,
but
it
will
be
a
good
idea
to
to
engage.
I
Also,
I
mean,
besides
this
discussion
to
to
at
some
point,
have
a
discussion
with
eda
vendors
on.
Are
things
changing?
I
I
certainly
plan
to
do
that.
You
know
for
our
work,
so
I
don't
want
to
engage
in
invest
time
into
something
that
you
know
is
going
to
face.
Take
down
requests
because
brian
and
I
have
been
through
those-
and
I
can
tell
you,
they're
un
unpleasant.
B
But
we
have
to
factor
in
that
experience
actually
and
it'd
be
interesting
to
see
what's
publishable
about
that
experience
that
we
can
talk
about
here.
H
I
have
for
everyone
in
terms
of
these
tools.
I
don't
know
how
you
select
and
hammer
compare,
but
would
you
call
f
if
you
select
another
instance
of
one
of
these
intermediate
layers
for
digital
applications?
H
I
Yeah
I
mean
that's
what
we
we
published
that
we
used
our
labs
were
doing
that
and
we
had.
This
synopsis
asked
us
to
remove
that
from
public
view.
It
was
a
long
time
ago
it
was
about
10
years
ago
or
so,
but
that
had
to
be
all
removed
for
the
experience.
You
know
how
the
experience
looks.
Like
I
haven't
seen.
I
mean
that
was
a
relatively
pleasant.
You
know
lower
written
letter.
Please
remove
this.
You
know
the
tsmc.
Letters
are
a
little
bit
nastier,
they
come.
I
You
know
as
a
breach
of
contract
to
the
to
the
university
president.
I
No,
this
is
a
breach
of
contract
and
the
damages
are
unlimited.
So,
let's
talk
about
you
know:
how
do
we
settle
this?
I
mean
you
know
yeah.
B
B
The
company
has
a
contract.
Now
that
has
even
layers
to
be
displayed
is
so
the
right
level
tsmc
is,
is
a
great
company,
but
it's
taken
in
is
not,
but
but
it's
taking
an
extreme
on
that
depart
and
understandably,
why?
Because
they're
they're
the
number
one
so,
but
it's
at
the
same
time.
I
think
it's
a
wrong
strategy
to
continue
to
do
that.
I.
E
B
A
I'm
sorry
the
yeah
go
ahead.
So
you
know
siemens
is
a
member
of
chips
alliance.
I
I
have,
I
used
to
work
with
their
representative
in
earlier
life
and
talk
to
them
their
motivation,
but
I'm
also
wondering
here
if
this
is
something
maybe
I
could
get
some
help
from
the
linux
foundation,
legal
team
in
particular,
because
they
have
contacts
with
many
different
areas
but
to
see
if
you
could
start
a
dialogue
on
you
know,
making
it
legal
so
to
speak,
to
at
least
have
these
apis
publicly
visible.
B
I'd
like
to
talk
about
this
offline
with
the
right
people,
maybe
and
rob
at
least,
and
then
we
want
to
say
right,
I'm
sorry
at
least
since
you
voiced
something
here,
because
I
think
there
is
potential
to
actually
we
are
having
conversations
where
the
eda
companies
are
saying.
How
do
I
benefit
from
the
open
source
movement?
That's
already
happening
at
the
strategic
level.
There,
okay,
you
know
I
I'm
having
a
digital
directly,
so
I
can.
However,
I
I
say
conversations,
I'm
not
going
to
claim
I'm
a
magician
or
anything.
B
When
you
have
the
apis
and
people
are,
it
becomes
a
really
powerful
way
to
to
show
their
their
their
power
into
their
strengths.
I
H
J
I
I
I
I've
been
listening,
the
the
whole
conversation,
but
for
me
it
is
more
about
at
least
initially.
I
believe
we
need
to
set
a
reference
point
to
see
what
are
the
cross
sections?
What
are
the
common
interests?
J
Not
only
what
ips
we
would
like
to
develop
because,
for
instance,
for
qasim,
open
source
pdk
is
really
super
important,
because
he's
working
in
that
in
that
domain
and
for
us,
as
we
are
talking
about
like
agnostic
generators
at
the
end
of
the
end
of
the
day,
technology
is
not,
I
wouldn't
say,
super
open
source
like
technology.
It's
not
super
important,
but
it
is
important.
J
On
the
other
hand,
you
know
there
is
some
drive
from
the
industry,
but
there
are
also
you
know
already
solutions
from
from
this
darpa
initiative
that
we
would.
It
will
be
great
if
we
can
use
it
and
we
cannot
use
it
because
there
is
no
interface
between
us.
So
what
I'm
seeing
in
my
opinion
as
a
strategic
direction,
it
is
important
that
we
actually
find
this
common
point
from
which
we
can
all
develop,
but
also
we
can
come
back.
J
B
Thank
you.
This
is
actually
very
intere
and
actually,
if
we
don't
find,
we
have
to
find
that
common
point
of
interest.
I
just
want
to
highlight
one
one
thing:
just
since
you
mentioned
are
interesting.
Now,
efless
actually
is
indifferent
about
the
pdk.
B
We
have
proprietary
pdks
on
our
platform,
including
advanced
ones,
but
they're
they're,
not
publicized
as
much,
and
so
I
am
my
own
interest.
You
know
per
world
there's
a
personal
passion
and
outside
effortless
and
there's
the
ephemeris
is
a
is
agnostic
to
the
process,
the
only
I'll
I'll
I'll
say
the
same
again:
the
coalition
of
the
willing
we
worked
with
the
open,
with
the
original,
with
the
x-fab
and
and
the
global
countries
130,
for
example,
and
sky
water,
because
that
was
a
low-hanging
fruit
for
us
to
make
a
point,
and
I.
E
B
Say,
like
I
think
we
can
efabuse
cannot
claim
the
success
for
itself.
It's
a
village
takes
a
village,
a
big
village
to
do
that,
and
but
it
made
the
difference
that
we
we
worked
with
the
what's
willing,
but
I
just
marianna
thank
you
for
for
highlighting
the
point
of
again.
That
applies
to
the
hanging
fruits.
If
we
have
the
look
at
the
darpa
projects
and
see
water
there,
what
is
there
and
then
see
the
specific
obstacles,
and
then
we
can
address
them.
I
am
interested.
J
B
B
J
Probably
everybody
should
kind
of
send
you
the
the
topics
they
are
interested
in
and
then
we
can
discuss
the
cross
sections
and-
and
you
know,
for
instance,
we
have
some
experience
in
back
too
and
we
see
some
some
problems.
Some
benefits
some
some
drawbacks,
I'm
so
I'm
sure
that
borah
and
and
people
from
uc
berkeley
have
also
their
own
opinion.
B
So
just-
and
I
know
this
may
be
a
good
point
to
actually
to
conclude-
would
that
be
possible
that
I
I
created
like
an
open,
a
google
doc,
and
then
we
would,
you
can
send
me,
but
also
it
would
be
useful
to
have
visibility
for
other
people
too,
that
we
agreed
like
we'd,
have
a
half
a
page
or
a
a
page,
or
I
have
a
page
depending
on
what's
efficient,
I
don't
wanna.
That's
an
example
for
some
of
the
interests
for
what
mariana
was
talking
about.
Would
that
be
okay
with
everybody.
I
I
don't
know
my
suggestion
would
be
to
yeah
to
think
about.
This
is
a
good
idea,
I
think,
in
the
direction
of
making
something
that
looks
like
si2,
a
parallel
to
sa2
and
a
parallel
to
open
access,
but
I
would
love
to
hear
other
opinions
to
that.
Okay,.
B
So
we
are
at
the
top
of
the
hour,
here's
my
action,
my
biggest
action,
I
I
I
took
some
notes
from
this
conversation
and
obviously
it's
recorded,
but
it's
and
I
will
share
a
google
doc
for
our
topics.
As
minutes
kind
of
the
key
topics
were
mentioned
in
this
meeting
and
then
I'll
share
it
with
everybody
on
the
call
as
well
as
I
would
like
to
share
another
one
where
we
we
can
articulate
the
the
important
points
in
what
is
considered
efficient.
B
B
B
Okay,
great,
thank
you.
Everyone
thank
you
for
thanks,
welcome,
welcome
to
me
and
I'm
looking
forward
to
being
a
part
of
this
group.