►
Description
From Ed Baker:
Grey is a senior policy counsel for the Drug Policy Alliance, which is the leading organization in the United States working to end the drug war, repair its harms, and build a non-punitive, equitable, and regulated drug market. Prior to his work for DPA he practiced law as a public defender for over a decade and served as legislative staff for several members of Congress in Washington, DC.
David Mickenberg is a partner at the Burlington law firm Mickenberg, Dunn & Smith, and has been actively involved in drug policy reform since 1997. He started his career at the Drug Policy Alliance where he worked on political efforts to reduce the harms associated with the war on drugs, including a multiyear effort to allow Vermonters to access methadone treatment. He currently works on a variety of public policy campaigns including an effort to decriminalize drugs in favor of a public health approach; a push to decriminalize sex work; legislation to increase the rights of working Vermonters; and efforts to increase benefits and protections for older Vermonters. David played an active role in the establishment of Vermont's medical cannabis program; legislation to decriminalize cannabis; legislation to legalize home grow, possession of cannabis, and expungement of previous cannabis convictions; and legislation to establish a regulated system for cannabis sales.
Guests: David Mickenberg and Grey Gardner (remote). Christopher Miller, Activism Manager at Ben & Jerry's.
For more information visit www.drugpolicy.org | www.decrimvermont.org
7/11/2023
https://linktr.ee/townmeetingtv
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This video belongs to http://www.cctv.org and published with permission under Creative Commons License CCTV Center for Media & Democracy Programming is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International License.
A
Hi,
everyone
welcome
to
the
addiction,
recovery,
Channel,
I'm,
Ed,
Baker
and
I'm.
Your
host,
the
addiction
recovery
channel,
was
born
out
of
the
devotion
to
contribute
to
the
elimination
of
stigma
and
the
way
we
planned
on
doing
that
was
by
having
guests
on
the
show
who
were
based
in
science,
based
in
data
based
in
compassion
and
by
bringing
you
accurate
information.
A
We
would
help
you
to
unlearn
stigma
and
unleash
compassion,
the
ultimate
goal
that
we
would
together
save
lives,
we're
very
privileged
today
to
have
two
people
with
us
who
have
spent
a
considerable
amount
of
their
time,
treasure
and
talent.
Doing
exactly
that,
it's
my
pleasure
to
introduce
Greg,
Gardner
and
David
mickenburg
Gray
Gardner
is
a
senior
policy
Council
for
the
drug
policy
Alliance,
which
is
a
leading
organization
in
the
United
States
working
to
end
the
drug
war,
repair
its
harms
and
build
a
non-punitive,
Equitable
and
regulated
drug
Market
prior
to
his
work
for
DPA.
A
A
He
started
his
career
at
the
drug
policy
Alliance,
where
he
worked
on
political
efforts
to
reduce
the
harms
associated
with
the
War
on
Drugs,
including
a
multi-year
effort
to
allow
vermonters
to
access
methadone
treatment.
He
currently
Works
in
a
variety
of
public
policy
campaigns,
including
an
effort
to
decriminalize
drugs
in
favor
of
a
public
health
approach.
Thank
you,
David
for
being
on
the
on
the
show,
thanks.
C
A
If
we
had
a
graph
that
went
back
to
2010,
you
would
see
the
drug
overdose
deaths
told
more
than
quintupling
over
14
years
in
2021
in
Vermont
there
were
217
deaths
in
2022.
It
appears
when
the
numbers
are
finalized.
There
will
be
over
240
deaths
and
in
2023
it
appears
from
data
collected
to
date
that
the
numbers
will
Eclipse
2022.
what's
happening
in
Vermont
is
every
year
we
set
a
record
every
year
is
worse
than
the
previous
year.
A
With
everything
we're
doing
now,
gray,
you
wrote
a
a
commentary
to
be
exact,
was
published
in
the
Vermont
Digger
in
April
6
2023,
a
recent
commentary
and
you
titled
it
Vermont
keeps
kicking
important
drug
reforms
down
the
road,
and
you
know
it
was
a
scholarly
article.
I
would
recommend
it
to
all
my
viewers
and
I'd
like
to
I'd
like
to
begin
there.
You
know
what
what
what?
What
are
we
doing
in
Vermont?
How
are
we
dragging
our
feet
in
Vermont?
What
are
we
not
doing
to
end
the
war
on
drugs?
A
B
We
are
in
a
crisis
and
that's
what
that
article
was
about
that
we're
in
a
Public
Health
crisis
and
instead
of
completely
overhauling
what
we're
doing,
instead
of
completely
focusing
all
available
resources
on
Public
Health
Solutions
to
a
Public
Health
crisis,
we
continue
to
have
a
haphazard
approach.
We
continue
to
criminalize
drug
use.
We
continue
to
prohibit
the
use
of
drugs
in
a
way
that
pushes
people
into
worse
situations
that
pushes
people
into
more
dangerous
situations.
B
Although
I'm
very
encouraging
that
we've
started
to
adopt
that
we've,
we've
gone
heavier
into
working
on
drug
checking
over
this
past
year,
I
think
there's
been
a
greater
understanding
in
the
legislature
and
we're
going
to
talk
about
that.
I
hope
that
that
we
need
to
help
give
people
tools
for
identifying
contaminated
substances
and
give
people
better
information
that
allows
them
to
to
change
their
use
in
ways
that
that
may
keep
them
safer.
B
But
yeah.
The
point
of
that
article
I
think
was
just
to
highlight
that
we
really
need
to
be
focusing
all
of
our
resources
on
evidence-based
Solutions
and
to
stop
creating
more
harm,
which
we've
been
doing
not
only
in
Vermont
but
throughout
the
country
in
rejecting
drug
decimalization,
and
continuing
to
think
that
it's
some
sort
of
radical
solution
when
it
is
a
very
pragmatic
solution
to
reducing
harm
in
people's
eyes.
A
B
We've
incarcerated.
You
know
we
have
now
about
2.3
million
people
incarcerated
in
the
United
States
and
one
in
five
of
those
are
in
prison
for
a
drug-related
offense.
We
imprisoned
more
people
than
any
other
nation
in
the
world.
Women
are
one
of
the
fastest
growing
segments
of
the
prison
population
in
the
U.S.
You
know
largely
because
of
draconian
drug
laws.
B
B
If
you're
alleged
to
have
used
drugs,
your
there
are
a
number
of
different
penalties
that
we've
built
in
from
driver's
licensing
to
Professional
Licensing,
to
you
know,
background
screening
that
keep
marginalizing
people
keep
segmenting
people
and
isolating
them
from
systems
that
provide
more
stability
and
that's
all
part
of
the
drug
war.
In
many
ways,
that's
that's
been
done
by
intent
with
the
intent
to
marginalize
certain
segments
of
of
our
communities.
It's
had
a
racially
disparate
impact.
B
People
who
are
people
of
color
and
white
people
use
drugs
at
the
same
rates.
They
sell
drugs
at
the
same
rates,
and
yet
black
and
brown
people
tend
to
be
criminalized.
They
are
criminalized,
prosecuted
incarcerated
at
higher
rates
than
white
people,
so
these
are
the
the
drug
war
is
extensive
and-
and
it
is
not
subsiding
in
a
substantial
way-
it
continues
to
be
perpetuated
throughout
the
country
and
and
even
in
Vermont,
through
arbitrary
enforcement.
A
You
know
I,
think
it's
I,
think
it's
interesting
and
I
want
you
to
jump
in
whenever
you
whenever
you
feel
you
you,
you
should
David
I,
think
it's
interesting
when
you
you
dig
down
into
this
concept
of
War
on
Drugs,
how
profound
it
becomes.
You
know,
we've
all
heard
of
critical
race,
Theory
I
for
one
think.
A
Somebody
should
begin
to
study,
critical
stigma,
Theory
and
see
how
stigma
against
people
who
use
drugs
has
infiltrated
every
level
of
American
American
society
we've
been,
we've
been
taught
it
for
at
least
50
years
as
policy
as
public
policy
as
political
policy
and
to
me
it's
one
of
the
main
things
that
keeps
people
from
from
embracing,
like
Humane
efforts
to
help
people
with
with
drug
use
issues.
Do
you
care
to
comment
on
on
stigma
or
or
what
we're
talking
anything
absolutely.
C
Thank
you,
so
it
was
interesting.
I
was
reflecting,
as
gray
was
talking
about
what
Vermont
is
doing
now
and
what
Vermont's
not
doing
now
we
we've
been
here
before
when
DPA
and
myself
started
working
on
drug
policy
issues
in
Vermont
in
the
early
2000s
Vermont
was
one
of
six
states
that
didn't
have
methadone
treatment.
We
didn't
have
needle
exchange,
we
didn't
have
a
hub
and
spoke
model
all
these
things.
We
talk
about
in
naloxone,
treatment,
buprenorphine.
C
We
didn't
have
any
of
that
and
we
were
stuck
in
this
drug
War
mentality
that
that
the
folks
that
use
consumed
drugs
don't
deserve
our
love,
compassion
and
don't
deserve
the
same
level
of
humanity
that
other
people
do
now.
What's
hopeful
for
me
about
this
time
now,
which
was
reflected
by
the
history
of
what
happened
then,
is
that
Vermont
did
take
affirmative
steps?
We
were
leaders
in
the
country.
We
not
only
got
methadone
treatment,
but
we
just
developed
a
broad
system
of
buprenorphine
distribution.
C
We
were
the
first
state
in
the
country
to
allow
for
naloxone
to
be
sold
over
the
counter.
We
work
to
pass
one
of
the
most,
in
fact,
the
most
far-reaching,
Good
Samaritan
law,
meaning
people
who
were
overdosing
could
call
9-1-1
without
fear
of
prosecution,
and
it
was
it
was
by
far
a
model
for
the
rest
of
the
country
and
the
way
that
we
accomplished
all
that
was
by
having
folks
voices
impact,
did
folks,
folks
that
normally
live
in
a
world
of
stigma,
come
forward
and
say
we
deserve
these
same
rights.
C
C
C
A
Morning
I
was
at
a
webinar
with
Dr
Yao
Gallo
he's
the
equivalent
of
the
health
commissioner
in
in
in
Portugal,
and
he
spoke
about
exactly
what
you're
speaking
about
the
facilitator
asked
him
what
it
was
about,
Portugal
that
got
them
to
enact.
You
know:
Progressive
Humane
approaches
to
people
who
use
drugs,
mainly
decriminalization
of
drugs
and
decriminalization
of
using
drugs,
and
he
emphasized
that
what
happened
in
Portugal
in
the
late
70s
and
80s
was
there
was
an
explosion
of
drug
use
and
by
the
90s
the
early
90s.
A
There
was
no
one
in
Portugal
who
could
say
you
know,
drug
overdose
is
occurring
within
marginalized
populations.
It's
those
people
who
it's
happening
to.
It
was
happening
to
everyone
and
that
caused
the
momentum
to
form
in
the
culture
that
enables
these
the
decriminalization
of
drugs
and
the
Humane
approach
to
people
who
use
drugs
and
and
I
I
know
you
see
it.
I
know
you
see
it
in
America.
Today,
that's
what's
happening.
Everyone
is
involved
in
this.
If
it's
not
oh,
his
son
died.
A
You
know
it's,
you
know
my
nephew
died,
his
son,
you
know
it's,
you
know
we're
all
involved
in
this,
and
I
can
feel
the
momentum
developing
that
you're
pointing
out
there's
great
resistance
to
it.
We
all
know
that.
Maybe
would
you
would
you
continue
a
little
bit
because
I
know
you
spend
a
lot
of
time
in
the
legislature.
Sure.
Would
you
continue
a
little
bit
with
some
of
the
advances
that
were
made
specifically
this
year
last
year
we
had
the
veto
of
728.
A
C
Sure,
yeah
this
year,
many
of
the
provisions
that
were
included
in
the
bill
that
the
governor
vetoed
resurfaced
in
a
bill
h.222,
which
was
a
real
harm
reduction,
focused
Bill.
There
was
a
lot
of
really
good
elements
of
harm
reduction,
making
it
easier
to
access
treatment,
doing
things
like
decriminalizing,
drug
paraphernalia
or
harm
reduction,
harm
reduction
tools,
so
people
can
access
safe
harm
reduction
tools.
There
was
you
know,
a
variety
of
Provisions
to
strengthen
our
harm
reduction
laws,
and
that
was
exciting
and
we
also
eliminated
the
sunset
on
the
decriminalization
of
buprenorphine.
C
Vermont
was
the
first
state
in
the
country
to
decriminalize
buprenorphine
in
certain
amounts
had
a
sunset
on
it.
The
governor,
when
became
law,
said
we
wanted
to
study
it
to
see
what
the
impacts
would
be
and
lo
and
behold,
the
impacts
all
the
negative
impacts
that
people
had
talked
about
didn't
materialize,
and
so
we
eliminated
the
sunset
on
that
made
that
a
permanent
piece
of
legislation
as
the
bill
made
it
through
the
process.
C
We
really
made
I
think
a
a
tremendous
step
forward
in
line
with
the
type
of
work
that
we
were
doing
decades
ago
in
Vermont
and
gray
had
mentioned
this
around
drug
checking
and
I
found
it
interesting.
I
saw
an
article
today
a
that.
The
Biden
Administration
is
now
launching
a
new
policy
and
I
haven't
seen
the
details.
Gray
may
know
more
about
it
related
to
xylazine
and
Fentanyl,
and
for
those
that
know,
xylazine
is
a
animal
tranquilizer.
C
That's
added
to
fentanyl,
to
stretch
out
the
length
of
the
effects
of
fentanyl
with
very
potentially
dangerous
impacts
on
people
that
consume
it.
So
the
but
part
of
what
the
national
platform
that
the
Biden
administration
had
come
forward
with
was
increased
access
to
testing
and
generally,
the
form
that
that's
taken
is
testing
strips,
so
fentanyl
testing,
strips
or
xylazine
testing
strips
to
see
whether
or
not
there
are
those
substances
in
the
drugs
they're
consuming
what
we
did
in
Vermont
modeled
under
a
pilot
program
that
was
being
done
in
southern
Vermont.
C
Was
we
passed
a
law
that
was
included
in
h.22
to
provide
not
just
access
to
drug
checking
Services,
where
you
can
bring
your
drugs
to
get
tested
by
machines?
That
will
give
you
everything
that's
in
in
the
drugs
for
your
own
protection,
not
just
the
authorization
of
that,
but
we
provided
criminal
immunity
for
people
to
bring
their
drugs
in.
We
said
we
value
your
life
more
than
arresting
you
for
having
a
small
amount
of
drugs
on
your
possession.
C
We
provided
criminal
immunity
for
the
people,
testing
the
drugs
similar
to
what
we
would
be
talking
about
for
overdose
prevention,
centers,
and
we
also
in
the
provisional
law
allowed
for
the
dissemination
of
information
to
the
community
to
say
that
in
an
anonymous
way
that
we
can
say
if
we
find
drugs
that
are
contaminated,
we're
going
to
let
you
know
so,
you
can
be
safe
and
we're
also
going
to
put
out
information
in
the
community.
And
the
best
part
of
it.
C
For
me
is
that
we
took
money
from
the
opioid
settlement
funds
and
used
that
money
to
pay
for
this,
so
that
we
can
have
these
machines
throughout
the
throughout
the
state.
And
to
me,
that's
a
really
major
accomplishment
that
the
and
major
step
forward
that
the
legislature
took
and
the
Coalition,
which
I
think
we
can
talk
about,
was
sort
of
instrumental
in
making
that
happen.
And
so
very.
B
Know
can
I
jump
in
on
that
real,
quick
I
think
yes,
go
ahead.
One
of
the
things
about
this
drug
checking
provision
that
I
think
is
so
significant
is
exactly
what
David
said.
I
mean
it
really
prioritizes
the
health
and
safety
of
the
individual,
as
well
as
the
community
safety
getting
information
out
to
the
community
like
we
would
do
in
in
a
TV
outbreak
or
in
you
know,
covet
racing.
C
B
B
The
legislation
would
have
similar
Provisions
to
to
ensure
that
people
are
not
going
to
be
criminalized,
that
we're
we're
emphasizing
open
doors,
we're
encouraging
people
to
come
in
to
harm
reduction
sites
by
saying
you're
safe
here,
you're
not
going
to
be
arrested.
If
you
come
in
here
and
by
shifting
that
focus
in
in
this
specific
way
with
drug
checking,
I
think
we
make
a
step
in
the
right
direction
in
terms
of
reducing
stigma.
B
I
would
like
to
go
back
to
your
question
about
stigma.
If
that's
okay-
oh
yes,
of
course,
absolutely
you
know
you
asked
about
stigma
and
and
how
things
are
progressing
in
in
Vermont
and
I
think
that
there
is
a
greater
understanding
in
Vermont
and
throughout
the
country
of
addiction,
as
of
the
nature
of
addiction
as
a
medical
condition
of
substance
use
disorder
as
a
medical
condition
as
a
chronic
medical
disease
that
that
is
involving
the
brain
circuitry,
you
know,
I
think,
there's
a
better
understanding
of
that.
B
There's
an
understanding
by
the
health
department
and
I
think
their
messaging
is
very
clear
in
Vermont
that
stigma
is
a
problem.
I
think
it's
actually
somewhat
perplexing.
The
the
Department
of
Health
has
a
major
campaign.
They
have
a
proactive
effort
to
destigmatize
drug
use.
They
have
an
entire
section
of
their
website,
dedicated
to
ending
addiction,
stigma
I
think
it
says
on
there.
Together
we
can
end
addiction
stigma
to
me.
B
One
of
the
most
significant
forms
of
stigma
is
caused
by
the
criminal
legal
system
by
arresting
people
by
publicly
shaming
them,
labeling
them
with
a
criminal
record
that
goes
on
for
years,
that
can
last
a
lifetime,
and
you
had
Noah
volkov
the
director
of
the
National
Institute
of
drug
abuse.
On
your
show,
director
volkov
has
written
extensively
about
the
impacts
of
of
stigma
on
people's
lives
and
about
criminalization
and
the
effect
of
criminalization
on
people's
health.
B
If
I
can
read,
one
of
her
quotes
I
think
it's
just
very
poignant.
It's
that
punitive
policies
around
drugs,
Mark
people
who
use
them
as
criminals,
and
so
it
contributes
to
the
overwhelming
stigma
against
people
contending
with
an
often
debilitating
and
sometimes
fatal
disorder,
and
even
against
Medical
Treatments
that
effectively
address
it
and
stigma
has
major
negative
impacts
on
health
and
well-being,
which
explains
why
only
18
of
people
with
drug
use
disorders
receive
treatment
for
their
addiction.
B
I
think
that
kind
of
sums
up
why
decriminalization
we're
moving
criminal
penalties
is
just
so
important
and
there
are
so
many
other
impacts
of
the
harms
of
criminalization
that
that
we
can
get
into.
But,
but
in
terms
of
the
stigma,
I
think
we
just
need
to
get
over
the
hump
of
realizing
that
that
the
criminalization,
the
prohibition
in
general
of
saying
that
you
know
you
are
your
reprehensible.
A
Well
just
to
reiterate
norovalkov
in
another
article,
she
tells
the
vignette
of
a
gentleman
in
Puerto
Rico,
with
a
xylazine
sores
sores
soft
tissue
infection
caused
by
the
injection
of
xylazine,
which
you
mentioned
earlier
earlier,
and
the
the
man
is
in
in
danger
of
having
to
have
his
leg
amputated
and
she's
with
him
and
she's
trying
to
get
him
to
come
into
the
Medical
Center
for
Medical
Care,
and
he
refuses
Medical
Care
and
the
reason
he
refuses.
Medical
Care
is
to
avoid
the
indignity
of
stigma,
and
this
is
what
we
have
in
America.
A
We
have
an
entire
population
of
people
who
are
literally
about
to
die
with
very
severe
drug
use,
disorder,
injecting
lethal,
unregulated
drugs
who
are
alienated
from
our
systems
because
our
systems
have
searched
them,
handcuffed
them,
incarcerated
them
and
stigmatized
them
for
decades.
This
is
the
population
when
you
both
mention
harm
reduction.
My
heart
jumps
for
Joy,
because
this
is
the
population
that
harm
reduction
is
it's
just
so
uniquely
set
up
to
embrace
non-judgmental.
A
Unconditional
safety
come
to
us,
as
you
are
we'll
meet
you.
Where
are
you?
Are
we're
not
going
to
make
any
demands
on
you
and
I
agree
with
you
I
think
what
I
think
America
is
funny
we're
making
progress
in
different
levels
in
different
places.
It's
kind
of
haphazard,
but
basically
the
next
logical
step
is
decriminalization,
so
gray
I
wanted
to
ask
you
I
know
that
you're
involved
on
a
national
level.
What
are
you
seeing
nationally
in
other
states?
Is
there
any
state
that
we
should
be
looking
at?
That's
saying:
well,
this
is
what
they've
done.
B
Well,
I
think:
there's
a
movement
toward
reducing
the
harms
of
criminalization
throughout
the
country.
I
think
there
is
a
movement
that
people
realize
I
mean
the
national
polls
show
that
66
percent
people
agree
that
we
shouldn't
be
criminalizing
people
for
for
substance
use.
The
numbers
are
way
higher
here
in
in
Vermont.
You
know,
it's
84
of
people
think
that
drug
use
should
not
be
criminalized.
Possession
of
low-level
amounts
of
drugs
should
not
be
criminalized.
B
Oregon
is
the
best
example.
Of
course,
the
GPA
had
worked
with
Partners
allies
in
in
2000
to
work
toward
the
implementation,
the
the
passage
and
implementation
of
a
ballot
measure
in
Oregon
that
would
decriminalize
low-level
possession
of
all
substances
that
passed
by
a
strong
majority
in
2000,
almost
60
percent
of
Oregon
voters
supported
it
and
the
measure
itself
not
only
eliminated
low-level
criminal
penalties,
but
it
also
provided
for
shifting
significant
funds
into
woefully
under-resourced
treatment
and
harm
reduction
systems.
B
They
made
available
in
the
first
two
years
over
300
million
dollars
to
invest
in
expanding
behavioral
health
networks
throughout
the
state
and
they
also
recaptured
upwards
of
in
the.
In
the
first
period
they've
they've
assessed
they
recaptured
over
40
million
in
funding
that
was
going
to
law
enforcement
that
was
freed
up
by
the
ballot
measure.
So
Oregon
is
the
best
example
of
of
trying
to
make
resources
available
in
a
better
way
and
to
get
remove
the
barriers
of
criminalization
that
prevent
people
from
getting
connected
with
Services.
B
Since
that
passed
in
2000,
we
saw
in
2020.
We
saw
significant
efforts
around
the
country
to
try
and
do
similar
things.
We've
seen
legislation
throughout
New
England
through
Massachusetts
Rhode
Island
New,
York
Maine.
There
are
states
throughout
the
rest
of
the
country
as
well.
Washington,
State,
Kansas,
Kentucky,
Texas
I
mean
you
see,
decline,
bills
all
over
the
country
and
there's
serious
consideration
of
of
these
measures
in
a
lot
of
different
places.
B
But
up
north,
you
know
in
Canada
I
think
is
one
of
the
best
examples
Canada.
As
you
know,
just
well
Vancouver
in
the
in
January
of
this
year,
implemented
by
waiver
from
the
National
Health
Authority,
an
emergency
measure
to
decriminalize
the
levels
of
all
substances
and
also
to
invest
heavily
in
harm
reduction
and
treatment,
Addiction
Services.
So
they
have
done
what
what
other
states
should
be
looking
toward
is
addressing
this
as
a
public
health
emergency
as
an
emergency
that
affects
all
of
us.
B
C
Mean
it's
just
I
think
about
as
Gray's
talking
as
you're
talking
I
would
think
about.
Imagine
another
one
of
the
most
deadly
drugs
in
the
country,
nicotine,
and
imagine
that,
instead
of
doing
what
we've
done,
which
said,
let's
educate
to
try
to
bring
rates
of
nicotine
youth
youth
rates
down,
which
has
been
effective
here
in
Vermont,
let's
talk
to
people
about
harm
reduction,
let's
offer
alternatives
to
smoking,
cessation
and
things
like
that.
C
Instead
of
doing
that,
imagine
we
said
we're
going
to
put
people
in
prison
for
smoking
cigarettes
we're
going
to
put
people
in
prison
for
drinking
alcohol,
I
mean
when
we're
talking
about
drugs,
it's
good
to
put
it
in
the
context.
I,
don't
see
any
legislation
around
the
country
to
make
alcohol
illegal
cigarettes
illegal.
There
are
harms
associated
with
both
of
them
serious
harms,
but
the
harms
associated
with
the
illegality
and
the
criminalization
are
so
significant
that
that
that
wouldn't
be
contemplated
and
so
I
think
just
sort
of
piggybacking.
A
A
There
was
of
the
Good
Samaritan
laws,
you
know
so
so
it
looks
like
we
have
the
beginning.
We
have
some
budding
ideas.
Some
budding
acceptance
of
decriminalization
I
think
maybe
it's
time
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
Coalition
building
in
Vermont
what
you've
been
doing
in
Vermont
and
what
your
sense
is
of
the
momentum
in
Vermont
toward
eventual
decriminalization.
Well,.
C
That's
great
yeah
and
in
fact,
gray
had
been
mentioning
bills
all
over
the
country.
Vermont
has
decriminalization
legislation
that
was
put
in
there's
two
bills:
h-423
who's
in
the
House
s
119
in
the
Senate
we
had
47
sponsors
of
the
house
bill,
which
is
I,
think
probably
the
most
in
the
country.
A
number
of
legislators
from
all
over
the
the
state,
with
different
perspectives
coming
together
to
say
that
the
current
system
has
failed.
We
need
to
move
towards
a
public
health
model.
It
was
really
inspiring
in
the
Senate.
C
We
had
11
over
a
third
of
the
Senate
said
that
this
policy
that
we
currently
have
is
no
longer
working,
so
we're
seeing
a
lot
of
growing
conversations
and
growing
support
for
this
effort,
and
a
lot
of
that
is
due
to
the
growing
Coalition,
gray
and
IU,
and
others
have
been
working
together
over
the
last
two
or
three
years
to
bring
a
variety
of
different
groups.
Together,
we
have
our
harm
reduction
groups.
We
have
criminal
justice
reforms
groups,
we
have
women's
groups,
we
have
the
you
know
the
Burlington
FC
Soccer
FC
green
soccer
club.
C
You
know
a
lot
of
different
types
of
folks,
seeing
that
it's
an
organization
called
decriminalize,
Vermont
and
folks,
seeing
that
the
current,
the
the
current
policy
has
failed
this
this.
It's
not
really
an
organization.
This
group
of
this
collaboration
of
folks
coming
together
started
with
just
a
handful
full
of
groups
and
now
has
grown
to
over
two
dozen
groups
and
growing,
and
so,
for
instance,
when
we
were
talking
about
the
drug
checking
piece
that
wasn't
included
in
the
House
pass
version
for
a
variety
of
reasons.
C
We
held
a
press
conference
with
this
Coalition
of
groups
and
brought
really
poignant
stories
to
the
Forefront
people
were
saying.
We
can
no
longer
accept
that
we
are
going
to
have
to
go
blindly
and
tell
people
that
they
just
get
what
they
get,
and
you
know
whether
they
die
it
doesn't
matter
to
us
and
that
Coalition
came
together
and
forcefully
said
that
we
need
change
and
that
change
happened.
C
B
I
think
that's
the
key
yeah
is
it
touches?
Everyone
I
mean?
Not
only
do
a
majority
of
people
have
some
connection
to
this
issue.
They
know
somebody
who's
overdosed.
They
know
somebody
who
suffers
from
substance
use
disorder,
but
also
I,
think
people
from
different
political
backgrounds
and
different
ideologies
I
mean
have
a
a
coherent
interest
in
this
particular
issue.
The
harms
of
criminalization
affect
us
in
so
many
ways,
not
only
from
you
know
the
the
overdose
issue,
but
to
The
Compassion
toward
other
people
that
providing
assistance
to
other
people.
B
The
civil
liberties
I
think
there
are
a
lot
of
people
who
who
are
starting
to
realize
that
the
harms
of
criminalization
are
so
broad
that
it's
just
not
worth
it
anymore.
It
never
was
effective.
It
never
affected
the
rates
of
substance,
use
it
never
affected
the
price,
it
never
reduced
the
supply
it
hasn't
been
affected
for
over
for
50
years,
and
people
are
starting
to
realize
that
as
well
as
seeing
how
much
harm
is
created
and
I.
Think
that
overdose
issue
is
particularly
Salient.
I
mean
when
it
is.
B
It
is
the
third
leading
cause
of
death
in
custody.
You
know
when
you
put
somebody
in
a
jail
who
is
suffering
some
from
substance
use
disorder.
They
are
at
greater
risk
than
outside
of
the
jail
in
many
ways.
One
study
found
that
naloxone
was
administered
in
only
20
percent
of
fentanyl,
related
overdoses
in
jails
and
prisons
that
were
studied
and
about
40
percent
of
of
deaths
occur
within
the
first
seven
days
of
someone's
admission
into
a
jail.
B
So
even
if
you
think
that
hey
people
aren't
getting
significant
amounts
of
time,
you
know
they're
just
being
put
into
a
jail
until
you
know
they
can
go,
see
a
judge
or
something
like
that.
You're
still
putting
people
in
danger,
but
beyond
the
overdose
risk
the
increase
of
Overdose
risk,
both
in
jails
and
outside
of
jails.
You
know
in
the
first
two
weeks
of
release
from
from
Prison
from
incarceration
individuals
are
almost
13
times
more
likely
to
die
than
the
the
general
population.
I
think
that
should
alarm
people.
B
A
B
There
are
a
number
of
impacts
on
individuals
and
on
people
within
the
community
that
are
heavily
policed
as
well.
There
there's
so
many
different
things
that
I
think
I
don't
know
if
we
showed
the
the
graphic
of
all
the
various
forms
of
criminalization
from
you
know:
the
erosion
of
our
constitutional
rights,
our
fourth
amendment
rights
to
the
increase
in
militarized
policing
that
that
have
accompanied
criminalization
to
the
housing
impacts.
B
B
B
C
B
Initial
data
that
we
have
shows
that
15
of
arrests
in
2021
were
for
drug-related
offenses
that
number
that
percentage
has
held
fairly
consistent.
It's
been
around
14,
15
percent
for
the
past
four
or
five
years.
That's
still
a
huge
investment,
not
only
in
terms
of
police
resources,
but
financial
resources
on
strain
on
the
court
system.
B
The
racial
disparities
we
haven't
even
talked
much
about
the
racial
disparities
here,
but
the
impacts
you
know
have
been
tracked
in
in
Vermont.
People
of
color
are
far
more
likely,
18
more
likely
to
get
a
sentence
of
incarceration
in
Vermont
than
similarly
situated
white
people
and
more
likely
to
be
criminalized
in
the
first
place.
So
there
are
there's
still
a
significant
amount
of
criminalization
that
goes
on
and
I
can
tell
you
many
different
ways
that
the
system
was
failing.
A
Once
again,
bringing
information
like
this
to
the
General
Public,
who
are
fired
by
inundated
with
false
information
supporting
stigma,
is
absolutely
essential.
I
think
to
what
we're
doing
so,
I
want
to
I
want
to
thank
you
for
that
and
gray
I
want
to
I
want
to
underline
a
term
that
you
used.
You
used
the
term
alarmed.
A
We
should
be
alarmed
and
it's
this
kind
of
information
when
people
hear
it
they
are
alarmed
and
instead
of
being
soothed
by
this
rhetoric,
about
how
great
we're
doing
they
feel
the
sense
of
urgency,
people
coming
out
of
jail
are
10
times
more
likely
to
overdose
than
people
who
are
not
incarcerated.
What
is
that
about?
What
can
we
do
about
that?
How
can
we're
putting
so
many
people
in
jail
just
for
using
drugs?
A
People
begin
to
ask
themselves
those
kinds
of
questions,
and
then,
in
my
experience,
if
you
can
connect
with
them,
they
begin
to
ask
you.
You
know
what
can
I
do.
If
you
would
ask
me
about
the
population
in
Vermont,
the
regular
citizen
ring
in
Vermont
I
think
everyone
is
either
aware
or
unaware,
but
either
they're,
aware
or
unaware,
but
what
they're
feeling
is
a
tremendous
sense
of
grief
and
a
tremendous
sense
of
responsibility.
A
Everyone
has
been
watching
death
in
Vermont
accelerate
in
velocity
over
the
past
15
years,
and
nobody
knows
what
to
do
with
the
two
about
it.
So
people
people
like
you,
leaders
in
our
state
who
are
out
here
engaging
people
giving
us
a
place
to
go
where
we
have
someone
to
follow
that
we
can
trust
in
you
know,
I
just
want
to
express
my
gratitude
to
you.
I
wanna,
I
wanna
tell
the
viewing
audience
that
if
you
have
a
pencil
or
a
pen
jot
down
drug
policy.org,
so
drugpolicy.org
that's
the
site
for
the
drug
policy.
A
Alliance
now
I
went
on
to
the
site
and
I
was
you
know,
messing
around
going
to
this
place
in
that
place
and
on
the
site.
There's
one
area
that
says
do
something
now:
this
is
a
this
to
me
is
incredible:
when
you
tap
do
something
and
you
get
to
that
part,
it
has
a
box
for
people
in
Vermont
to
join
an
advocacy,
push
towards
red
decriminalization.
You
you
put
in
your
identifying
information
and
hit
submit
and
a
letter
gets
sent
to
all
your
representatives
relative
to
this
particular
issue.
A
A
What's
in
what
are
the
coalitions?
Are
the
coalitions
reaching
out?
I
know
that
we're
having
just
for
the
viewing
audience
again.
We
will
be
having
a
demonstration
on
the
State
House
lawn
on
August
31st,
which
is
international
overdose,
Awareness
Day
from
five
to
seven
in
montpelia
on
the
State
House
lawn
with
guest
speakers
on
issues,
letting
you
know
what's
going
on
what
can
be
done?
There
will
be
members
of
the
Coalition
that
you
can
join
there,
so
I
think
it's
time
really
the
time
is
ours.
We
have
to
really
see
it
as
a
moment.
C
Yeah
I
agree,
I,
think
doing
things
like
contacting
your
legislators
telling
them
that,
whether
it's
a
specific
piece
of
legislation
or
just
generally
the
need
to
do
more
I
think
that's
essential.
Talking
to
local
leaders,
your
local
Council
people
and
others
in
your
community.
Talking
to
law
enforcement
officials
engaging
in
dialogue
with
law
enforcement,
whether
it's
our
attorney
general
or
your
local
police
and
saying
well,
do
you
think
this
system
is
working
now?
Is
it
working
for
you
as
a
law
enforcement
official?
Is
it
working?
C
Has
it
worked
for
the
last
52
years
of
the
War
on
Drugs?
Why
don't
we
start
a
conversation
about
that
I
think
in
Vermont,
we're
lucky
enough
to
be
small,
so
small
enough
to
be
able
to
have
those
conversations
throughout
communities
and
that's
how
we're
going
to
help
change
policy.
I
mean
right
now
you
talked
about
legislation.
Age
72
is
a
bill
related
to
overdose
prevention,
centers,
which
you
and
others
have
been
very
involved
in
that
bill
came
out
of
its
first
committee
and
its
second
committee.
C
It's
in
its
third
Committee
in
the
Appropriations
Committee
waiting
for
Action
I
mean
that
is
an
immediate
step
that
can
be
taken
to
save
lives.
If
we
were
able
to
get
that
through
the
house
and
the
Senate
next
year,
we
have
communities,
Burlington
and
other
places
willing
to
step
up
and
set
one
of
these
up.
This
is
being
done
around
the
world,
it's
being
done
in
New,
York
City.
C
Right
now
with
on
point,
there's
lots
of
stories
about
it
over
a
thousand
people,
almost
a
thousand
people,
probably
more
than
that
lives,
have
been
saved
since
they've
opened
those
doors.
People
who
are
father,
fathers,
mothers,
sisters,
brothers,
grandparents,
who
are
now
living
to
you
know,
continue
their
lives
and
to
work
towards
stabilization.
That
wouldn't
have
happened
if
they
didn't
have
that
opportunity.
So
there's
a
lot
that
can
be
done
immediately
and
we
can
continue
to
voice
to
our
leaders
the
need
to
make
change.
A
A
Now
they
dragged
their
feet
a
little
bit
on
overdose
prevention
centers,
but
the
health
commissioner
put
in
writing
that
he
would
be
looking
at
overdose
prevention
centers.
During
this
phase
of
the
process.
They've
already
had
one
person
come
and
testify
Brandon
Marshall,
who
is
a
national
expert
from
Rhode
Island,
a
researcher
he
came
and
testified
they're
going
to
have
Kalin
C,
who
is
the
senior
project
director
at
on
point,
come
and
testify
this
committee?
A
Now
you
know,
with
the
help
of
outside
Advocates
needs
to
put
pressure
on
leadership
to
support
opioid
abatement
funds
moving
into
supporting
overdose
prevention.
Centers,
it's
happened
in
Rhode
Island
has
done
it
there's
a
precedent.
It
can
be
done.
This
is
one
of
the
areas
that
we
really
need
to
focus
attention
I.
C
Think
if
we
had
folks
pushing
the
Department
of
Health
and
the
Department
of
Health
would
actually
have
an
honest
conversation
about
the
science
associated
with
overdose
prevention,
centers
harm
reduction,
centers
and
the
Department
of
Health
would
be
supportive
of
this.
We
would
get
this
legislation
passed
without
a
without
a
lot
of
problems.
I
agree,
yeah,
I,.
B
Centers
similar
to
what
was
what
was
done
in
New
York,
where
the
focus
is
really
on
the
individual's
health
and
safety
and
helping
connect
people
to
services
in
a
voluntary
way
when
they're
ready
and
as
they
build
trust.
Instead
of
creating
less
trust
and
less
and
more
difficulties,
more
barriers
in
people's
lives.
So
I
think
we
are
engaging
a
lot
of
different
groups.
B
I
think
one
example
is:
is
the
health
communities
David
mentioned
the
health
department,
but
I
think
people
should
be
aware
that
in
other
parts
of
the
country,
even
the
the
like,
the
medical,
the
Minnesota
Medical
Association,
just
passed
a
resolution
in
support
of
decriminalization.
There
are
many
other
professional
associations
now
that
have
stepped
out
and
said
you
know
we
should
end
criminalization
of
substance,
use
because
it's
ineffective
and
is
farming
the
people
that
we
care
about,
and
particularly
with
health
professionals
who
are
devoted
to
doing
no
harm.
A
A
I
want
to
I
want
to
just
I
want
to
thank
my
guests
for
tuning
in
I
want
to
remind
people,
drug
policy.org,
that's
the
drug
policy,
Alliance
Workshop
go
there.
It's
like
a
diamond
mine
and
there's
all
kinds
of
things.
There's
ways
to
learn
and
ways
to
participate
in
closing
also
the
event:
International
overdose
Awareness
Day
gathering
on
the
State
House
law
on
August
31st,
from
5
to
7,
where.
A
Joining
a
team
parenting
Vermont,
which
is
a
group
of
parents
who
have
tragically
lost
children
to
overdose
death,
so
come
there
and
stand
in
solidarity
with
us
and
demonstrate
demonstrate
your
concern.
We
want
to
show
we
want
to
show
the
governor
the
health
commissioner.
We
want
to
show
everyone
that
we're
concerned
about
what's
happening,
we're
alarmed
about
what's
happening,
we
want
more
being
done.
So.
Thank
you.
Thank.
B
You
Ed
for
bringing
us
on
the
show
and
doing
everything
that
you're
doing
to
to
raise
awareness
of
these
issues.
I
would
just
add
the
one
other
resources,
the
decrim
vermont.org
website,
which
has
a
tremendous
amount
of
additional
resources
as
well
and
information
about
many
of
the
efforts
that
we're
doing
the
poll
that
we
discussed
today
and
and
many
other
aspects
of
the
legislation
that
have
been
put
forward.
So.