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From YouTube: Moments with Melinda: Interview with Jon D. Erickson
Description
From Melinda Moulton:
Jon D. Erickson is the David Blittersdorf Professor of Sustainability Science and Policy in the Rubenstein School of Environment and Natural Resources. He has published widely on energy and climate change policy, land conservation, watershed planning, environmental public health, and the theory and practice of ecological economics.
His most recent book is "The Progress Illusion: Reclaiming Our Future from the Fairytale of Economics" (Island Press, 2022).
12/15/2022
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A
B
B
Let
me
tell
my
viewers
a
little
bit
about
you.
John
Erickson
is
the
blittersdorf
professor
of
sustainability,
science
and
policy
at
the
University
of
Vermont.
He
is
a
faculty
member
of
the
Rubinstein
School
of
environment
and
natural
resources
and
Othello
of
the
Gund
Institute
for
environment.
Does
that
sound
right.
B
B
So
I
want
to
say
to
my
viewers
and
to
all
of
Vermont
and
to
all
of
the
world
that
our
hearts
are
with
will
and
his
family
and
all
who
loved
him.
So
dearly
will
was
someone
John
who
did
subscribe
to
your
way
of
thinking
about
the
world
and
how
everything
is
connected
to
our
environment,
including
our
economics.
A
He
was
yeah,
I
mean
will
what
a
what
a
giant
we've
lost.
A
we've
lost.
Another
giant
him
and
I
had
many
conversations,
many
debates
over
economics
in
the
future
of
the
Vermont
economy
and
he
always
was
so
giving
with
his
time
he
met
with
our
students.
He
he
hosted
them
down
at
the
Intervale.
He
he
was
on
our
Board
of
advisors
at
the
Rubenstein
school.
He
was
just
so
generous
with
his
his
ideas
and
enthusiasm
and
boy.
You
want
to
talk
about
on
eternal
optimist.
It
was
what
will
wrap.
B
A
A
A
A
A
No
I
grew
up
in
Saratoga
Springs
New
York.
What
yeah?
What
brought
me
to
Vermont
was
was
the
job
at
the
University
of
Vermont
in
2002,
so
I've
been
here
for
a
good
stretch,
but
my
first
life
was
a
competitive
ski
racer,
so
I,
you
know
I
always
thought
about
Vermont
in
terms
of
its
mountains
and
its
ski
areas,
and
always
wanted
to
figure
out
a
way
to
move
to
Vermont
and
Along
Came.
This
job-
and
here
I,
am
do.
A
B
B
A
Yeah
I
think
it's
nothing
more
than
thinking
of
the
economy
as
a
ecosystem
right.
The
economy
has
a
system
that
is
interdependent
on
society
and
culture.
That's
interdependent
on
our
environment,
not
this
kind
of
abstracted
human
thing
that
has
its
own
set
of
rules
and
its
own
sort
of
internal
goals,
but
truly
thinking
of
the
economy
as
embedded
inside
of
the
natural
environment.
A
You
know
my
one
of
my
mentors
Herman
Daley,
who
also
recently
passed
away,
spent
a
whole
career
just
drawing
a
square
inside
a
circle
right:
here's,
the
economy
and
here's
the
environment
and
one
sits
inside
the
other
and
the
economy
asset
expands.
It
doesn't
expand
into
the
void
it
expands
into
a
fixed,
finite
planetary
system.
So
ecological
economics
to
me
is
just
simply
21st
century
economics
right
where
we
come
to
terms
with
those
kinds
of
those
kinds
of
trade-offs.
B
Thank
you
for
that.
Now
you
are
a
prolific
writer
with
over
100
conference
papers,
research
reports
and
press
articles
and
seven
books.
Your
bio
is
extensive
and
deeply
impressive.
Now
you
just
finished
what
I
believe
may
be
your
seventh
book.
The
progress
illusion
which
was
released
just
a
couple
of
weeks
ago,
tell
us
about
your
new
book,
which
has
been
described
by
James
Beth
as
a
story
that
is,
is
as
deeply
disturbing
as
it
is
hopeful.
B
A
Yeah
I
mean
this
isn't
in
some
ways
my
midlife
crisis
book
right.
It's
a
reflection
back
on
my
career
thinking
about
our
struggles,
our
push,
our
our
due
diligence
to
try
to
reform
both
the
study
and
the
practice
of
Economics
to
make
economics
more
human,
to
make
economics,
a
study
of
of
resilience
and
sustainability
and
Equity
to
move
economics
away
from
its
obsession
with
growth
and
competition
and
towards
something
that
is
focused
more
on
on
cooperation
and
care
and
stewardship.
A
So
you
know
the
kind
of
Economics
that
I
was
taught
in
school
was
born
in
the
late
1800s
and
it
was
you
know,
tweaked
a
little
bit
in
the
1930s
and
40s
by
Keynes
and
others.
You
know
in
reaction
to
the
Great
Depression,
but
you
know
during
the
Reagan
Thatcher
era,
during
the
80s
when
I
grew
up
and
was
sort
of
told
by
my
father
go
study.
Economics.
Greed
is
good
right.
A
It's
it's
sort
of
left
us
with
problems
of
a
growing
economy,
and
then
the
solutions
that
are
presented
are
to
grow
the
economy,
some
more
it's
kind
of
what
they
say
in
Alcoholics
Anonymous,
right
that,
if
you
think
you
can,
you
know
solve
problems
with
the
same
type
type
of
thinking
that
created
the
problems.
That's
a
little
bit
delusional!
A
It's
a
kind
of
insanity,
so
yeah
this
book
is
going
back.
Looking
at
my
own
upbringing,
thinking
of
myself
as
a
white
American
male,
who
was
in
high
school
in
the
go,
go
80s
and
thinking
about
all
those
other
white
American
males
that
have
gone
out
and
forged
ahead
in
economics
and
forged
ahead
in
business
and
have
kind
of
you
know
drank
the
Kool-Aid
of
greed
is
good
and
my
reflection
on
what
went
wrong
and
how
we
can
fix
it.
B
Well,
you
spoke
earlier
about
Herman
Daley,
who
you
said
just
passed
away
and
I'm
sorry
about
that.
He
was
married
as
professor
at
the
school
of
public
policy
at
the
University
of
Maryland,
and
he
said
in
the
forward
of
your
book.
The
errors
of
Economics
are
disastrous
and
we
are
currently
suffering
from
them.
Now
you
call
Humanity,
greedy
and
independent,
and
during
your
entire
adult
life,
you
have
worked
to
merge
human
compassion,
cooperation
and
interdependence
and
stewardship
with
our
economic
well-being
is
that
is
that
so.
A
Yeah,
that's
that's
been
the
journey
we've
been
on
to
to
build
a
more
ecological
economics
to
build
an
economy
that
recognizes
first
and
foremost,
that
we
are
interdependent
right.
We
depend
on
each
other,
you
know
we're
a
social
primate
species,
we
depend
on
community,
we
depend
on
family
and
we
depend
on
our
environment
and
that
when
we
grow
the
square
inside
the
fixed
Circle,
it
creates
problems,
especially
on
a
planet.
That's
just
crossed
the
8
billion
people,
Mark.
B
Have
to
read
it
because
the
modern
Sapien
is
is
the
greedy
war-like
and
we
wiped
out
seven
other
Sapient
groups.
So
you
should
read
the
book
because
it
really
it
it's
I
think
it'll
resonate
with
you
in
a
very
big
way.
Now
you
were
born
in
1969,
yes
at
the
height
of
the
60s
revolution
of
my
generation.
A
A
You
know
look
to
someone
like
Kennedy
and
bought
into
the
idea
that
you
know
ask
not
what
your
country
can
do
for
you,
but
what
you
can
do
for
your
country,
My
Generation
in
the
read,
is
good
80s,
you
know
grew
up
with
a
president
who
was
saying
my
job
is
to
get
government
off.
Your
back
government
is
the
problem.
It's
not
the
solution
and-
and
you
know
the
so-called
neoliberal
turn
that
took
a
course
that
reduced
all
social
relations
to
Market
logic
and
I
talked
some
about.
A
B
A
Well,
I
hope
so,
but
in
my
darker
moments,
I
feel
like
what
we're
doing
is
preparing
for
the
alternative
when
the
next
Crisis
happens
when,
when
the
civilization
built
on
Market
logic
fumbles-
and
we
see
this-
we
see
this-
you
know
coming
out
of,
for
example,
of
the
Great
Recession.
We
saw
all
of
a
sudden
a
lot
of
mainstream
writers
and
mainstream
economists
start
to
talk
like
and
think
like
ecological
economists.
A
So
there's
these
warning
shots
all
the
time
right
and
then
the
powers
that
be
say
it's
our
job
to
get
us
back
to
normal
and
I
feel
like
this
time
around
I
mean
maybe
I'm
naive,
but
this
time
around
people
are
saying:
hey
we
don't
want
to
go
back
to
normal.
Normal
was
in
crisis
right,
normal
was
a
planet
that
is
dying,
normal
was
a
highly
inequitable
income
and
wealth
distribution.
Normal
was
putting
more
and
more
power
in
the
hands
of
fewer
and
fewer
people.
So
each
time
these
kinds
of
crises
happen
each
time.
B
A
Think
so
I
think
there's
a
lot
of
resistance,
there's,
for
example,
a
very,
very
vibrant
social
movement
that
many
people
call
degrowth
or
a
growth
or
post-growth
right.
Imagining
a
future
would
look
like
that.
Didn't
fundamentally
depend
on
always
and
everywhere
growing
the
economic
system
growing
the
economic
system
by
creating
more
and
more
debt
right,
more
and
more
claims
on
the
future.
More
and
more
Reliance
on
a
system
that
is
is
controlled
by
the
very
very
few.
A
You
know.
D-Growth
asked
us
to
start
asking
and
and
regulating
an
economy
more
effectively
right
to
say
that
why
are
we
investing
in
more
and
more
fossil
fuel
infrastructure,
for
example,
when
we
should
be
getting
off
of
fossil
fuels?
We
see
cities
and
towns
and
counties
across
the
United
States
starting
to
put
in
bands
of
new
fossil
fuel
infrastructure
right
here
in
Vermont.
You
know,
I
I
testified
when
we
were
looking
at
expanding
the
natural
gas
pipeline
through
Vermont
and
said.
A
A
A
Part
of
this
book
was
an
exploration
of
human
nature,
Homo
sapiens,
right
and
moving
away
from
this.
This
very
narrow
model
that
economics
is
built
on
called
homo
economicus
right.
This
rational
actor,
this
rational
person
an
individual
at
a
point
in
time
who
always
wants
more,
who
doesn't
think
about
those
around
him
or
herself.
It's
usually
a
him
in
these
models
and
doesn't
even
think
about
the
future.
A
A
B
A
So
I
see
this
movement
towards
a
Kinder,
gentler,
more
compassionate
economics.
That's
the
simple
next
stage
of
our
own
social
evolution,
if
you
think
of
the
economy
as
an
ecosystem
right
when
each
ecosystem
is
Young
like
our
Northern
hardwood
Force
winner
Northern
Harvard
Force,
when
I
come
into
a
farm
field
in
Vermont,
the
attention
is
put
on
growth
and
competition
and
get
to
the
top
of
the
you
know,
Heap
as
fast
as
possible.
A
winner
takes
all
ecosystem,
but
as
an
ecosystem
matures
right,
it
doesn't
continue
to
focus
on
growth
and
competition.
A
B
A
I
think
it's
all
around
us
I
think
it's
it's!
You
know
the
impetus
for
this
book
actually
came
out
of
Occupy
Wall
Street
and
my
participation
in
that
down
in
New,
York,
City
and
realizing
that
you
know
people
weren't
out
there
marching
and
protesting
for
more
greed
right
or
more
money
or
more
of
anything.
They
were
they.
They
were
Pro
yeah.
They
were
protesting
for
a
return
to
a
kind
of
values
that
respect
all
humans
of
all
kinds.
B
A
B
A
Thank
you
yeah,
my
my
youngest
son
John
is
a
filmmaker
and,
and
he
he
kind
of
brought
me
into
the
film
world
and
helped
me
realize
that
you
know
for
every
problem.
There's
there's
a
unique
communication
solution.
You
know,
and
certainly
in
in
my
world,
we
get
rewarded
to
cranking
out
more
and
more
academic
papers
that
other
academics
read
now.
That's
part
of
it
right.
A
You
have
to
sort
of
push
along
your
own
discipline
and
your
own
thought
systems,
but
I
came
to
documentary
filmmaking
really
as
a
leverage,
Point
and
so
yeah.
We
we
we
made
this
four-part
PBS
film
bloom
to
really
look
at
the
fate
and
state
of
Lake
Champlain
working
with
my
colleague
vicodagno,
and
we
started
a
media
company
called
bright
blue
Eco
media,
which
then
led
to
other
other
projects.
A
Our
most
recent
one
was
working
with
my
colleagues,
Jacob
Smith
and
Catherine
Goldman
on
a
film
called
waking,
the
sleeping
giant
where
we
we
followed
around
the
Sanders
campaign
throughout
2015
and
2016.,
to
really
try
to
understand
what
was
happening
in
in
the
United
States.
What
what
was
what
was?
What
was
Senator
Sanders
stirring
up
right?
How
is
he
kind
of
creating
this
appeal
to
a
more
compassionate
caring
economic
system?
Right,
which
is
you
know,
a
big
theme
in
my
in
my
own
work,
so
yeah
I
have
found
s
with
you.
B
You
have
to
wonder
when
you
think
about
Al,
Gore
and
Bernie
Sanders,
and
all
these
great
people
who
could
have
been
leading
our
country
about
the
divine
intervention
that
those
that
they
were
not
elected.
Do
you
do
you
remember
the
bird
that
landed
on
the
podium
when
Bernie
was
talking
to
like
25
000
people,
and
that's
you
remember
that
I.
B
B
A
You
know
where
my
hope
comes
from
is,
and
this
maybe
sounds
cliche
is
from
young
people.
You
know
I
mean
again,
I,
think
about
my
generation
and
when
I
was
in
high
school,
when
I
was
going
to
college.
You
know
we
grew
up
in
this
hyper,
individualistic
Society
right
and
a
society
that
really
put
power
into
the
hands
of
white
men,
like
myself
and
I've.
Of
course,
benefited
from
that
I
see
a
turn.
A
That's
happening,
I
see
our
young
people
now
you
know
every
year
I'm
a
year
older
and
my
students
are
the
same
darn
age
and
every
year,
I'm
so
enthralled.
Inspired
by
by
their
lesson
that
you
know
less
is
more
that
we
all
don't
need
to
have
a
car.
We
can
share
that.
We
all
don't
need
to
have.
You
know
a
4,
000
square
foot
home
right.
We
can
share
that.
We
can
create
the
sharing
and
caring
economy.
We
can
create
less
material
consumption.
A
A
This
is
that
kind
of
slow
wave
change
that
I've
invested
my
life
in
that,
where
I
think
there's
the
most
hope.
Will
it
happen
fast
enough
and
far
enough?
Oh
boy,
I,
don't
know
I
know.
Senator
Sanders
has
put
a
lot
of
his
attention
on
you
know
getting
more
people
elected
from
the
Grassroots
right
on
up
through
the
system
and
I
think
there's
a
lot
of
lessons
to
be
learned
here.
A
B
Right,
well,
that's
important.
That's
a
whole
other
interview,
but
listen.
We're
I
could
talk
to
you
forever.
John
Erickson!
You
have
done
so
much
in
your
short
50
plus
years
and
to
me
you
are
as
close
to
a
superhero
that
there
is
so
thank
you
for
all
you
do
and
all
that
you
are
to
my
viewers.
Please
order
your
copy.
This
is
a
great
story.
This
is
not
a.
This
is
not
a
geeky
book
that
you
can't
get
your
head
around,
although
I
can
be
quite
geeky.
B
This
is
a
beautiful
story
about
your
life
and
how
you've
applied
your
life
to
bringing
the
planet
and
the
economy
together
to
help
save
our
species,
the
progress
Illusion
by
John,
D
Erickson
and
as
he
says,
we
can
reclaim
our
future
from
the
fairy
tale
of
economics
and
perhaps,
if
we
all
come
together
together,
we
can
do
just
that
and
save
our
species,
so
John
Erickson
to
you
I.
Thank
you
for
your
time.
I.
Thank
you
for
your
mind
and
all
that
you've
done.
It's
just
been
grand
following
your
career
and
thank
you.