►
From YouTube: Interview with Dr. Rick Barnett | Moments with Melinda
Description
From Melinda Moulton:
Dr. Rick Barnett is a licensed psychologist-doctorate, licensed alcohol and drug counselor with an additional Master’s Degree in Clinical Psychopharmacology. Dr. Barnett is also the Co-Founder at Psychedelic Society of Vermont. Dr. Rick Barnett - Magic Mushroom Therapy and Legalization
For more information visit: www.drrickbarnett.com
6/15/2023
https://linktr.ee/townmeetingtv
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A
B
To
see
you
thanks
for
so
much
for
agreeing
to
be
on
my
show,
I'm
really
excited
to
talk
to
you
so
to
my
viewers
I
want
to
let
you
know
a
little
bit
about
Dr
Barnett.
He
is
a
licensed
psychologist:
doctorate
licensed
alcohol
and
drug
counselor
with
an
additional
master's
degree
in
clinical
psycho
pharmacology.
He
is
also
the
co-founder
of
the
Psychedelic
Society
of
Vermont
and
he's
president
founder
of
the
Carter
Inc
Center
for
addiction,
recognition,
treatment,
education
and
Recovery.
Is
that
about
right?
That's.
B
A
Yeah
born
and
raised
in
Stowe
Vermont,
where
I
am
right
now
native
of
Stowe.
There's
not
many
of
us
here
and
I
grew
up
here
in
this
idyllic
town
and
found
myself
as
I
got
older,
getting
into
all
kinds
of
debauchery
and
alcohol
and
drug
use
as
a
maybe
somewhat
of
a
typical
teenager
at
that
time,
but
maybe
took
it
a
little
bit
too
far
and
got
myself
into
all
kinds
of
legal
and
academic
and
physical
troubles.
A
Relational
problems
wound
up
in
in
rehab
actually
at
the
age
of
20
and
spent
six
months
in
rehab,
and
then
that
launched
me
into
a
journey
of
recovery
and
was
able
to
finish
my
my
college
education
as
as
as
a
part
of
being
sober
and
in
recovery
and
went
on
to
get
a
doctoral
degree
and
another
master's
degree,
and
eventually
I
I
had
moved
to
New,
York
City,
believe
it
or
not.
For
13
years
lived
in
New
York
City
loved
New,
York
I
was
just
down
there.
A
Looking
for
and
so
I've
been
delighted
that
I
I
was
able
to
do
a
training
program
in
psychedelic
therapy
and
research
in
2020,
2021
I'm
in
another
training
for
a
specific
kind
of
psychedelic
compound,
which
it
requires
a
little
bit
more
specified.
Training
and
I've
been
able
to
work
with
other
Healthcare
professionals
to
try
to
bring
in
this
new
psychedelic
Paradigm
into
into
our
culture
in
a
safe
and
effective
way.
It's
been
an
exciting
ride.
A
Exactly
I
I
wasn't
sure
what
I
wanted
to
do
with
my
life.
I
got
sober
when
I
was
20
and
I
had
already
an
interested
in
Psychology
and
I
felt
at
the
time
believe
it
or
not.
I
felt
it
was
kind
of
a
cop-out.
If
I
were
to
go
from
this
person
who
was
addicted
to
going
into
recovery
and
then
working
in
the
recovery
world
I
was
like
that's
too
easy.
That's
too
it's
too
basic
like.
Why
would
I
just
want
to
devote
my
life
to
dealing
with
addiction?
What
I'm?
A
We
all
have
the
potential
to
get
to
develop
an
unhealthy
relationship
with
our
thoughts
with
behaviors
with
substances,
and
it
really
didn't
feel
like
I
was
sort
of
putting
myself
backing
myself
into
a
corner
by
focusing
on
addiction,
because
it's
so
it's
such
a
widespread
problem,
so
I
just
I
sort
of
fell
into
it
because
of
my
my
own
personal
history
and
also
my
fascination
with
psychology.
Behaviors
Human
Relationships.
B
It's
so
interesting
that
you
were,
you
were
young,
you
were
20.,
so
what
was
what
was?
Was
your
drug
of
choice,
alcohol
and
I
mean
at
the
age
of
20
to
make
that
realization
that
that
you
wanna
that
you
want
to
stop,
you
know
taking
whatever
it
was
that
you
were
taking
is
a
young
age,
because
that's
kind
of
the
party
age
they're
going
off
to
college
and
talk
to
us
a
little
bit
about
that.
What
inspired
you?
What
what
drove
you
to
finally
say
you
know:
I've
had
enough.
A
Well,
yeah
I
mean
it's
extremely
young
and
I'm
super
grateful
that
I
was
able
to
sort.
You
know
have
the
resources
available
to
me
to
to
get
the
help
that
I
needed
and
and
to
be
able
to
connect
with
people
and
have
realizations
to
maintain
to
stay
on
this
path,
because
that
it
that's
a
difficult
age
to
make
that
decision
and
realize
how
what
a
show
it
is
to
to
live
that
lifestyle,
but
already
at
that
age,
I'd
started
using
cigarettes
at
age,
10
and
I
started
using
alcohol
at
age.
A
11
I
started
using
cannabis
at
age,
12.,
so
I
started
pretty
young
and
I.
You
know
I
sort
of
Off
to
the
Races.
By
the
time
I
was
15,
I'd
use,
cocaine,
MDMA
was
using
cannabis
on
a
daily
basis,
was
a
daily.
Smoker
was
really
getting
into
alcohol
and
a
number
of
consequences
just
built
up
very
quickly
over
the
course
of
those
five
years
from
15
to
20..
A
By
the
time,
I
was
15,
I'd
already
been
arrested
twice,
and
so
it
just
it
just
got
worse
and
worse
to
the
point
where
my
pancreas
basically
just
gave
out
and
that
even
that
was
really
the
the
straw
that
broke
the
camel's
back,
because
I
had
already
been
kicked
out
of
three
apartments
in
Burlington
I
had
been
arrested.
Three
times,
I
had
been
in
four
car
accidents.
I
was
kicked
out
of
my
family's
home.
A
My
relationships
were
all
over
the
place,
so
it
was
really
my
physical
health
being
stopped
in
my
tracks
being
in
the
hospital
for
a
week
recovering
from
acute
pancreatitis,
where
I
had
that
sort
of
Moment
of
clarity,
even
though
I
was
still
somewhat
resistant
and
and
was
able
to
be
convinced
to
go
to
rehab
at
that
time
and
was
open-minded
enough
and
I.
You
know
I
honestly,
I
say
this
Melinda.
The
only
reason
why
I
was
open-minded
enough
to
the
message
of
recovery
is
because
of
my
psychedelic
use
when
I
was
actively
addicted.
A
I
used
a
lot
of
psychedelics
when
I
was
a
kid
and
there
were
aspects
of
those
experiences
which
really
stuck
with
me
in
profound
ways.
That
left
me
open
to
the
message
of
recovery,
which
is
you
know,
it's
a
whole
paradigm
shift
to
go
from
being
an
active
addiction
to
being
in
recovery
and
if
I
didn't,
if
I
didn't
have
an
experience
where
Paradigm
shifts
were
actually
possible.
A
B
Fascinating-
and
you
know
my
generation
when
I
was
growing
up,
we
didn't
drink,
I
mean
our
parents
were
the
drinkers
and
we
were
like.
Oh
you
know,
they're
cocktail
parties,
and
you
know
it's
it's
such
a
dumb
thing.
I
mean
we
were
psychedelic
like
users
and
neither
my
husband
or
I
ever
really
got
into
drinking,
because
psychedelics
were
so
much
more
enlightening,
but
anyway,
that's
neither
here
nor
there.
B
You
were
at
the
press
conference
that
I
was
at
about
a
month
ago,
and
it
was
talking
about
the
legalization
of
psilocybin
in
this
state
at
that,
at
that
press
conference
there
was
a
graph
which
blew
my
mind
and
I.
Want
you
to
talk
to
my
viewers
a
little
bit
about
that
graph,
and
it
listed
all
the
dangerous
things
that
some
legal
and
where
they
line
up
and
talk
to
us
a
little
bit
about
that
graph,
because
it
was
mind-boggling,
yeah,.
A
That's
a
graph
that
came
out
of
England
Professor,
David,
Nutt
who's,
a
psychedelic
researcher,
drug
policy,
expert,
really,
a
fantastic
human
being
who's
done
a
lot
to
help
bring
in
this
new
psychedelic
era.
But
he,
you
know,
he's
a
drug
policy
expert,
a
pharmacologist,
a
clinician.
He
understands
drugs
and
he
understands
addiction
and
that
graph
basically
showed
that
the
two
legal
and
most
widely
acceptable
drugs,
alcohol
and
tobacco
cause
the
most
harm
in
society
and
then
underneath
that
we
in
rank
order,
you've
got
alcohol
causing
all
this
harm
and
pain
and
suffering.
A
You've
got
tobacco,
causing
all
this
pain
and
suffering,
and
you
go
through
all
the
different
drugs
cocaine,
heroin,
cannabis,
methamphetamine
benzodiazepines.
You,
then
we
get
into
some
of
the
other
drugs
like
oh,
a
morphine
and
codeine
and
then
off
down
to
ketamine
and
LSD
and
MDMA,
and
at
the
bottom
of
the
chart
you
have
psilocybin
mushrooms,
which
is
this
tiny
little
tiny
fraction
of
the
population
and
Tiny
fraction
of
harm
harms
done
from
psilocybin,
and
yet
it's
a
class.
It's
a
schedule.
A
One
drug
you
know
deemed
by
the
federal
government
like
cannabis,
ironically,
to
be
of
no
business
value,
no
medical
value
whatsoever
and
a
high
potential
for
abuse,
and
we
both
know
that
that
that's
not
true
psilocybin
does
have
medicinal
value
and
it
does
not
have
a
high
potential
for
addiction.
So
you
know
that
that
was
at
the
bottom
of
the
chart.
So
if
it's
a
really
fascinating
chart.
B
It's
extraordinary
and
what
blows
my
mind
is
when
you
go
up
to
Burlington,
there's,
there's
wine
bars
and
breweries
and
whiskey
bars
every
other
doorway
in
our
in
our
towns.
It's
just
it
I
mean
alcohol
is,
is
rampant,
especially
with
this.
You
know
in
the
last
20
years
with
these
Generations
who
a
lot
of
them
have
chosen
alcohol
as
their
drug
of
choice,
because
it's
it's
legal
and
now
and
at
the
end
of
the
day,
but
I
I
love
that
graph
anyway
and.
A
A
Turning
point
and
Chittenden
County
we've
got
the
north
central
Vermont
Recovery
Center
here
in
lamoille,
county
and
Bennington
and
Rutland,
and
and
we
have
peer
recovery
coaches
and
they
have
Partnerships
with
the
emergency
departments,
where
peer
peer
recovery,
coaches
can
go
into
emergency
departments,
help
out
EMTs
when
there's
a
crisis
around
some
sort
of
addiction
and
most
of
the
cases
they
get
called
for
are
not
opioids
we're.
In
this
midst
of
this
opioid
epidemic,
people
are
dying
from
Fentanyl
and
opioids,
but
it's
alcohol
hands
down.
A
B
Really
is,
and
it's
just
promoted
everywhere,
I
mean
you
can
go
anywhere
and
you
get
alcohol
so
anyway,
why
I
I
just
want
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
Oxycontin
Michael
Keaton
was
in
this
incredible
film.
It
was
a
six
part
series
about
Oxycontin
and
you
know
doctors
are
still
prescribing
it
and
I,
don't
know
if
you
have
any.
You
know,
because
that
may
this
may
not
be
yours.
You
know
your
specialty,
but
talk
to
us
a
little
bit
about
that
drug
and
the
harm
that
it
has
created
in
this
country.
B
A
There's
a
lot
to
be
said
about
that
and
I
would
consider
myself
somewhat
of
an
expert
on
the
subject.
I've
been
engaged
in
discussions
around
the
opioid
epidemic
for
quite
a
number
of
years
with
a
lot
of
experts
in
the
field
from
all
over
the
country
when
it
comes
to
this
and
it's
a
very
thorny,
difficult
issue,
and
when
it
comes
to
Oxycontin
that
drug
in
particular
is
so
well
known
because
it
was
in
the
late
90s
when
there
was
this
pain
campaign.
A
20
years
later,
and
even
though
we've
seen
a
drastic
reduction
in
the
prescribing
of
opioids
for
pain,
we
have
seen
nothing
but
increasing
deaths
from
opioid,
related
overdoses
and
and
so
simply
stopping
prescribing
opioids
for
pain
is
not
the
answer.
It's
a
very,
very
complicated
issue.
So
that's
that's
the
role
that
Oxycontin
has
played.
It
was
it's
a
very
powerful
opioid
that,
when
crushed
or
snorted
can
be
and
has
been
widely
misused,
yep.
A
Yes,
I
would
say
absolutely
kovid
was
a
devastating
thing
that
happened
to
all
of
us,
and
differentially
has
impacted
people,
I
mean
I
Melinda
I
get
six
to
ten
calls
a
week.
Emails
text
messages
people
trying
to
get
in
for
mental
health
care
for
counseling
and
I'm
a
private
practitioner,
I,
don't
work
in
in
a
public
agency,
and
people
are
knocking
down
my
doors,
it's
difficult
for
me
to
find
colleagues
to
refer
these
people
to
who
are
reaching
out
for
help.
It's.
A
It's
been
never
seen
anything
like
this
before
they're,
just
not
enough
of
us
to
go
around
and-
and
a
lot
of
that
is
the
I
think
the
increasing
polarization
we're
seeing
in
the
political
world
the
anxiety
people
have
around
climate
change
the
isolation
we
all
felt
from
being
quarantined
from
covid
using
technology
increasingly
as
a
way
to
distract
ourselves
and
being
disregulated
by
our
overuse
of
Technology.
So
there's
a
lot
of
factors
that
have
all
sort
of
come
together
as
a
result
of
covid.
That
makes
makes
this.
A
We
are
definitely
seeing
Rising
rates
of
suicide,
Rising
rates
of
addiction
and
and
opioid
overdose
deaths
and
people
seeking
seeking
help,
and
so
thank
God.
There
are
new
tools
on
the
horizon,
which
is
how
how
we
met
to
help
people
shift
their
their
functioning
in
such
a
way,
improve
their
well-being.
B
There
are
a
lot
of
children
in
this
country
who
are
being
given
antidepressants
and
drugs
for
anxiety,
and
you
know
Ritalin
and
all
these
different
drugs,
young,
young
people
and
I'm,
just
wondering
how
you
feel
about
that
that
if,
if
you
know
things
aren't
going
going
the
way
that
and
it
causes
anxiety
that
these
children
are
being
given
Pharmaceuticals
to
deal
with
their
anxiety-
and
there
are
side
effects
to
that
that
coming
off
of
these
medications
can
take
a
long
time.
Where
do
you
land
on
that
yeah.
A
Don't
blame
them
for
being
in
that
awkward
position
and
wanting
to
help
and
and
using
that
tool,
and
they
also
struggle
with
finding
Child
and
Adolescent
mental
health
practitioners
or
Child
and
Adolescent
organizations
that
can
approach
these
families
and
these
kids
in
non-pharmacological
ways
to
to
use
that
as
a
tool.
First,
it's
difficult
to
find
those
tools
as
well
those
resources.
A
So
it's
really
kind
of
a
cluster
for
a
lot
of
kids
and
and
their
families
who
are
struggling
with
these
issues
and
for
us
providers
to
find
the
right
balance
and-
and
there
are
like
some
of
these
stimulants
for
ADHD
there's
a
great
episode
of
the
Andrew
huberman
lab.
He
does
a
great
podcast
and
he
does
this
whole
expose
on
Adderall
and
stimulants
for
ADHD,
and
the
evidence
is
clear
if
you
truly
have
an
attention,
deficit,
disorder
or
hyperactivity
disorder
for
a
small
subset
of
these
people.
A
These
these
medicines
can
be
extremely
helpful
and
life
affirming
and
growth
oriented.
But
you
know
too
off
often
there's
just
not
adequate
time
or
tools
to
assess
these
people
appropriately
offer
non-pharmacological
tools
as
a
first
line
treatment,
and
that's
just
for
the
sort
of
ADHD
side
of
things.
A
You
mentioned
anxiety,
depression
again,
I
think
in
in
some
cases
having
these
medicines
available
is
appropriate
and
helpful,
but
not
to
turn
to
them
as
a
first
line
treatment,
always
as
if
that's
the
only
thing
and
and
not
to
rely
upon
them
and
maybe
also
think
about
using
them
in
the
short
term.
Rather
than
simply,
you
know
offering
the
prescription
and
then
this
this
kid
who's,
10
years
old,
has
now
been
on.
You
know
Zoloft
or
Prozac
for
the
last.
You
know
six
years
when
they
were
just
going
through
a
phase
of
development.
B
Time,
well,
you
know
what
else
doctors
never
look
at.
Certainly,
never
ask
me:
what's
your
diet
and,
as
somebody
who's
had
a
gluten
and
dairy
allergy,
it
affected
my
mood.
It
affected
my
attitude.
It
affected
the
way
that
I
looked
at
life.
It
affected
my
my
ability
to
to
not
be
depressed
and
a
lot
of
times
it's
what
what
we're
eating
an
overdose
of
sugar
or
if
you
have
allergies
to
certain
foods,
then
it
causes
inflammation
which
can
and
that
they
never
go
there.
A
It's
also
it's
also,
it's
also
what
what
are
we
consuming
so
when
you
think
about
what's
in
your
diet?
But
what
are
what?
What
are
we
consuming
with
our
attention?
What
are
we
receiving
emotionally?
What
are
we
consuming
in
in
a
broad
sense
of
the
term,
also
with
our
diet
of
of
social
interactions
is
a
is
an
important,
so
these
are
all
non-pharmacological
tools
that
we
just
need
to
do
better
as
a
society
as
bringing
attention
to
and
reorganizing
so
that
we
don't
take
the
easier
softer
way
with
just
prescribing
a
psychiatric
medicine,
drugs.
B
Thank
you
for
that
I,
really
we're
going
to
talk
about
natural
ways
to
treat
mental
difficult
for
human
for
human
beings
and
let's
move
right
into
your
powerful
work
on
psilocybin
treatment.
Let's
explain:
I
mean
a
psilocybin.
What
is
the
psilocybin
to
my
viewers
and
and
and
so
explain
that
and
then
also
talk
a
little
bit
about
the
the
human
health
and
well-being
in
using
psilocybin
in
the
treatments
for
mental
Mental
Health.
A
Yeah
so
psilocybin
for
your
viewers.
Most
people
know
what
psilocybin
is,
but
it's
the
active
ingredient
in
what's
called
magic,
mushrooms,
psychedelic,
mushrooms,
psilocybin
cubensis,
is
the
technical
name
and
it's
basically
a
tryptamine
which
is
a
type
of
psychedelic
drug
or
a
a
molecule
that
can
interact
with
the
brain
in
such
a
way
to
produce
experiences
that
shift
our
senses
our
sights.
Our
sounds
taste
touch.
A
We
how
we
experience
ourselves
our
perspective
of
the
world
of
other
people,
our
connection
to
Nature.
It
basically
affects
our
receptors
and
our
brain
and
produces
an
experience
that
shifts
our
world
view
in
so
many
different
ways
shifts
our
understanding
of
our
emotions
and
it's
an
experience
that
can
last
four
to
six
hours
when
ingested
and
people
can
ingest
this
in
various
forms
from
a
capsule
form.
A
That's
ground
up
powder
from
the
raw
mushroom
itself,
dried
mushroom
itself
and
dosage
is
really
important,
because
there's
this
whole
movement
around
micro
dosing,
where
people
take
small
amounts
on
a
more
regular
basis
versus
what's
called
heroic
dosing
or
macro
dosing.
I,
don't
like
the
word
heroic,
necessarily
because
it
sounds
like
a
challenge
that
we
need
to
be
heroes
and
and
take
large
amounts
of
this
stuff,
which
is
probably
not
a
good
idea
for
a
lot
of
people,
at
least
not
in
a
in
a
sort
of
half
Hazard
kind
of
way.
A
So
there's
dosage
and
yeah
it's
a
really
powerful
tool
to
help
people,
maybe
look
at
themselves
or
experience
the
world
differently
in
in
a
way
that
no
other
molecule
that
we
have
available
currently
can
can
do,
and
these
are
intense
psychedelic
experiences
that
as
it's
being
rolled
out
in
the
in
the
research
and
eventually
into
a
clinical
practice,
it's
done
in
a
very
curated
way.
In
other
words,
there's
a
whole
process
by
which
somebody
maybe
comes
in
for
a
consultation
and
they're
described
some
of
what
we're
describing
right
here.
This
is
what
this
drug
is.
A
This
is
what
the
type
of
experience
it
can
be
and
this
we
can
spend
you
know
three:
four
five
hours
or
three
four
five
sessions
preparing
for
a
psychedelic
Journey
preparing
for
a
psilocybin
mushroom
experience,
usually
in
in
a
in
a
clinical
setting
like
like
an
office
setting
in
the
clinical
trials.
They
have
special
rooms,
set
up
like
a
living
room.
So
it's
comfortable
someone
has
the
administration
session
or
the
experience
session,
and
then
there's.
You
know
one
two,
three,
four:
multiple
sessions
of
integration.
So
how
do
we?
A
How
do
we
understand
what
just
happened
during
the
Psychedelic
experience
and
spending
a
lot
of
time,
helping
the
person
sort
through
it?
So
this
is
whole
curated
protocol
of
a
particular
kind
of
way
to
administer
and
handle
a
psychedelic
drug
like
this
in
in
a
in
a
healthy
and
productive
way.
That's
not
to
say
that
you
and
I
both
know
that
psilocybin
mushrooms
can
be
used
recreationally
for
fun
for
ceremony,
for
celebration
for
ritual
for
personal
growth
and
well-being.
A
It
doesn't
have
to
be
in
the
context
of
a
medical
condition
or
a
mental
health
condition.
It
can
be
used
safely
and
effectively
outside
of
a
medical
model,
but
in
terms
of
the
research,
that's
that's
the
direction.
The
the
sort
of
more
traditional
Western
model
is
going
in
in
that
medicalized
kind
of
way.
B
Well,
you
know
I,
don't
I,
don't
need
magic
mushrooms
for
my
mental
health
because
that's
pretty
pretty
together,
probably
because
I've
done
mushrooms
and
it's
kind
of
kept
me
healthy,
I
think
mentally
health,
but
I
do
use
it
for
some.
As
for
social
events,
because
I
tend
to
be
an
introvert
and
it
allows
me
to
open
up
and
and
to
be
more
receptive
and
and
open-minded,
but
anyway,
I
I,
love,
I,
love,
mushrooms
and
I've,
taken
them
for
years
and
I
and
they've
been
very
helpful
for
me.
B
B
I
mean
there's,
there's
a
there's,
an
understanding
about
this,
especially
in
Vermont,
but
it
needs
to
be
legalized
because,
right
now
it
is,
it
is
right
up
there
with
heroin
and
it
shouldn't
be,
and
so
talk
to
us
about
your
advice
for
someone
who
wants
to
try
magic
mushrooms.
What
what
is
your
advice
to
them
about
around
this
Rick.
A
Well,
I
think
it's
important
to
do
your
research
so
to
speak,
so,
if
someone's
interested
in
having
a
psychedelic
experience
with
mushrooms
or
with
other
psychedelic
drugs.
Frankly,
you
know
doing
a
fair
amount
of
research
and
listening
to
podcasts,
having
conversations
with
people
reading
some
books
studying
some
of
this
spending
time,
making
sure
that
you're
developing
enough
of
an
awareness
and
building
an
educational
background
to
understand
what
could
go
wrong.
A
What
could
be
helpful,
how
to
optimize
The
Experience,
how
to
minimize
Farms
that
could
come
from
the
experience,
building,
Community
being
transparent
with
other
people,
people
that
you
trust
and
say:
hey
I'm,
going
to
do
this?
What
do
you
think
you
know
finding
someone
maybe
to
hold
space
for
you
to
do
that
in
a
safe
and
effective
way,
learn
from
the
experts
learn
from
the
material
that's
out
there
and
and
how
to
have
a
a
really
good
experience
with
it.
Even
though,
at
times
it
can,
it
can
go
sideways.
A
You
know
these
at
the
higher
levels.
Some
of
these
experiences
can
be
quite
challenging
for
people.
So,
if
you're
gonna,
if
you're
gonna,
do
it
make
sure
that
you're
aware
that
some
of
it
could
be
difficult
and
having
strategies
there,
like
another
person
available
to
sit
with
you
who's,
not
on
mushrooms,
necessarily
who
can
you
know,
hold
your
hand
and
walk
you
through
something
difficult
that
might
come
up.
So
all
these
things
are
really
important,
which
is
building
Community,
being
transparent,
open
with
the
right
people.
A
Reading
lots
of
books
listening
to
podcasts,
and
you
know,
I
think
it's
something
that
can
and
ought
to
be
used
in
personal
ways.
You
know
how
somebody
decides
they
want
to
use.
It
should
be
a
valid
way
just
waiting
around
for
a
medicalized
model
so
that
you
can
be
prescribed
a
pharmaceutical
version
of
psilocybin
mushroom
to
be
taken
in
an
office
with
a
licensed
Healthcare
practitioner
like
I
get
it.
That
is
a
model
that
is
an
important
model.
A
That's
you
know,
the
cops
are
going
to
come
in
and
arrest
you
for
having
you
know,
four
ounces
of
mushrooms
sitting
in
your
refrigerator.
That's
not
that's!
Not
something
people
need
to
live
with
it.
Just
doesn't
make
any
sense
eventually
getting
to
a
commercial
model
like
we
finally
got
to
with
cannabis
here.
That
would
be
great.
So
then,
you
have
like
you
know,
a
regulated
product
that
you
can
go
to
the
store
and
buy
your
micro
doses,
your
buyer
macro
dose.
Whatever
you
know
amount
you
want.
That
would
be
great,
but
I.
A
B
That's
where
you
and
I
met
was
speaking
out
at
the
end
down
at
the
legislature
and
in
committee.
Well,
you
know
I
agree,
nobody
needs
to
do
mushrooms
and
feel
paranoid.
That's
like
the
last
thing
you
want
to
feel
so.
Let's
get
this
bill
passed
and
I
think
it
would
have
passed
this
year
if
there
had
been
more
time,
I
really
do,
but
at
the
end
of
the
day,
I
think
it
will
pass
by
the
end
of
the
next
session.
B
Next
year
now
you
were
holding
a
a
a
summit,
a
a
retreat
which
I
got
I,
have
my
tickets
to
it's,
the
soul,
quinox
Summit
and
it
it
is
a
a
summit
focusing
on
psilocybin
I,
I
titled,
it
the
Psychedelic
Retreat,
and
it's
in
September,
I
believe
and
I'm
going
to
be
going
to
that.
So
with
that
in
mind,
will
you
eventually
be
able
to
train
more
folks?
B
I
would
like
to
be
trained
to
be
a
magic
mushroom,
therapist
I
I
personally
have
been
helping
some
friends
and
but
not
in
a
therapeutic
way,
but
I
would
love
to
be
able
to
get
certified
in
Vermont.
Will
that
ever
be
available
to
people
like
me,
who
want
to
take
it
a
step
further
to
actually
help
people.
A
Recommending
setting
up
a
system
whereby
licensed
or
unlicensed
people
can
take
a
training
program
and
learn
all
the
basics
of
how
to
hold
space
for
people
and
to
be
able
to
do
so
in
a
legal
and
safe
and
effective
way,
whether
it's
at
a
facility
or
a
particular
geographic
location
or
in
somebody's
home.
However,
that
gets
designed
that's
what's
happening
in
Oregon
Oregon
passed
by
ballot
initiative.
A
They
have
a
model
there,
that's
being
set
up
now
and
it's
in
operation
where
they
have
licensed
facilities,
so
specific
licensed
brick
and
mortar
buildings,
where
people
who
are
not
licensed
Healthcare
practitioners,
but
who,
who
have
undergone
a
minimum
of
something
like
80
hours
of
training,
with
an
experiential
aspect
to
it.
So
they've
done
the
mushrooms
themselves
and
they
have
the
qualifications
to
sit
with
somebody,
and
you
don't
have
to
have
a
mental
health
diagnosis
to
access
it.
A
In
fact,
that's
a
rule
out
like
you
could
you
can
just
come
for
personal
exploration,
spiritual
growth,
whatever
it
is
for
creativity
purposes
and
have
a
session
so
I'm,
hoping
to
set
up
an
improved
version
of
that
here.
We're
hoping
to
do
that
in
Vermont,
where
again,
I
think
all
paths
are
so
important.
Melinda
and
the
medical
model
is
important,
but
so
is
all
so
are
all
the
models
that
exist
outside
of
the
medical
model.
So
we
need
to
be
sort
of
all-encompassing.
A
B
No,
we
have
to
be
multifaceted,
and
you
know
a
lot
of
my
friends
in
my
day
they
went
to
jail
and
they
spent
time
in
jail
for
for
pot
and
for
mushrooms
and
and
I'm
just
glad
as
a
73
year
old
woman
that
that
my
generation
is
getting
a
little
bit
of
of
notoriety.
That
yeah,
maybe
maybe
we
were
on
to
something
and
we
didn't-
deserve
to
be
thrown
in
jail
for
what
we
were
on
so
I
am
loving.
B
I,
have
a
big
smile
on
my
face:
I'm
not
on
mushrooms,
but
I
have
a
big
smile
on
my
face,
because
this
is
important
to
me
and
it's
important
to
my
generation.
So
thank
you
for
your
time.
Rick.
It's
been
an
incredible
pleasure
to
get
to
know
you
I'm
so
excited
to
be
with
you
for
three
days
at
your
summit
and
I
hope
someday
that
you
and
I
can
take
mushrooms
together
and
spend
a
day
walking
Mount
Mansfield
and
just
spending
a
lot
of
time
together
and
I.
Look
forward
to
that.