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From YouTube: Robert Sand - Founding Director of the Center for Justice Reform at VLS - Moments with Melinda
Description
From Melinda Moulton:
Robert L. Sand joined the faculty at Vermont Law School on a full-time basis in 2016, having served as the Vermont Governor's Liaison to Criminal Justice Programs, the former elected prosecutor (State’s Attorney) for Windsor County, Vermont (a position he held for 15 years), and a visiting professor of criminal law at Vermont Law School. He is a 1980 graduate of Hamilton College and a 1987 graduate of Vermont Law School, magna cum laude, where he served as the managing editor of the Vermont Law Review. He is a past member of the Vermont Law School Board of Trustees.
Mr. Sand is the Founding Director of the Center for Justice Reform at VLS to include spearheading the creation of a Master of Arts in Restorative Justice degree and a Professional Certificate in Restorative Justice. The Center for Justice Reform brings to VLS enhanced curricular attention to cutting-edge criminal justice issues and organizes conferences, presentations, and lectures related to justice reform efforts.
VLS and the Center for Justice Reform hosts the federally funded National Center on Restorative Justice, in partnership with the University of Vermont and the University of San Diego. Sand holds a Certificate in Restorative Justice Facilitation and Leadership from the University of San Diego.
5/12/2023
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A
B
B
I
can't
I
can't
tell
you
how
much
how
excited
I
am
for
this
interview.
You
and
I
had
the
opportunity
to
meet
each
other
at
the
spot
a
few
months
ago
and
I
think
it
was
the
first
time
that
we
ever
had
a
got
together
and
talked,
and
it
was
just
so
exciting
that
I
I
asked
you
in
that
moment
to
please
be
on
my
show
so
I.
Thank
you
for
being
here
this
morning
on
this
beautiful
day
with
me
and
my
viewers.
B
A
Sure
I
was
born
in
Washington
DC,
but
grew
up
in
New
York
City,
very
happy
to
have
grown
up
there
and
very
happy
that
I
don't
live.
There
now
was
incredibly
fortunate
to
spend
lots
of
time
up
in
the
Adirondacks,
and
that's
really
where
my
my
heart
is
is
up
in
the
mountains
and
the
waterways
and
the
Adirondacks
went
to
I.
Don't
know
how
far
am
I
supposed
to
go.
Early
childhood.
A
My
mom's,
a
social
worker
in
New,
York,
City,
Works,
very
hard
on
literacy
and
helping
unhoused
people,
and
my
dad
was
a
lawyer
and
then
became
a
federal
judge.
So
I
was
absolutely
convinced.
I
would
never
go
into
the
law
so
much
so
much
for
that
and
honestly,
what
got
me
through
school
was
largely
Sports
football
as
a
kid
and
then
soccer
I
was
kept
in
the
wrestling
team
and
loved
baseball
so
that
that's
mostly
how
I
made
it
through,
because
academics
were
not
necessarily
my
my
strongest
suit.
A
B
B
Did
graduated
okay
yeah
and
then
you
got
and
you
so
so
that's
what
brought
you
here
and
you've
stayed
here
ever
since
so
I
want
to
talk
to
you
a
little
bit
about
your
years,
because
I
know
that
you
worked
with
one
of
my
favorite
and
most
exciting
litigators
in
the
state,
which
is
who
is
Richie
Berger
and
you
worked
with
Richie
for
I
believe
quite
a
while
quite
a
many
years
and
talk
to
us
a
little
bit
about
your
time
in
private
practice.
You
worked
for
the
Dinsey
team,
yeah.
A
So
if
I
might
back
up
a
tiny
bit
as
I
said,
I
I
was
not
an
academic,
Superstar,
high
school
or
college,
but
things
really
started
to
click
in
law
school
and
that
went.
Fine
I
had
the
great
Good
Fortune
of
clerking
for
federal
judge
in
Rutland
Franklin
s,
Billings
Jr
after
graduation
and
from
there
I
went
to
the
Dinsey
firm
and
was
incredibly
fortunate
to
have
Richie
as
my
supervisor
and
mentor
and
for
folks
who
don't
know
Richie
Berger.
A
He
is
really
the
preeminent
litigator
in
this
state
and
just
learned
an
incredible
amount
from
him
learned
an
incredible
amount
about
things.
I
was
doing
improperly
and
so
I
spent
a
just
shy
of
two
years
at
the
Dinsey
firm
I
knew
early
on
that
my
heart
was
more
in
the
public
sector,
but
I
really
wanted
to
have
that
private
practice
experience
so.
B
A
Right
in
Windsor
right
so
I
was
in
Windsor
for
four
Windsor
County
yep
four
years
and
then
was
really
honestly.
I
wanted
to
run
for
State's
Attorney,
but
I
didn't
want
to
run
against
a
person
who
had
hired
me.
So
I
took
a
job
in
Montpelier
for
the
Department
of
State's
Attorneys,
and
that
was
a
fabulous
job,
because
I
became
the
legislative
liaison
for
all
the
prosecutors
Statewide.
So
I
basically
lived
under
the
gold
Dome
during
the
legislative
session
for
three
years
and
and
learned
so
much
and
met
so
many
people
and.
A
A
A
Yeah,
we
don't
often
talk
about
our
actual
origin
story,
because
the
man
who,
whose
idea
this
school
was
had
some
questionable
ethics,
but
you
know
and
who
the
heck
would
have
thought
of
the
idea
of
starting
a
law
school
in
tiny,
South
Royalton,
the
only
Law
School
in
the
country
in
a
town
without
a
stoplight,
but
so
it
it
started
very
small.
But
there
were
some
big
players
from
Private
Practice
in
New,
York
and
elsewhere,
who
helped
launch
it
and
very
early
on
the
school
developed.
A
B
A
I
think
we
have
maybe
30
to
35
Justice
Reform
RJ
courses
and
very
robust
online
offerings.
So
we
have
students
all
over
the
country
and
actually
International
students
as
well.
So
it's
been
pretty
exciting,
I
have
to
say
I'd
like
to
say
it
was
prescient
on
my
part,
and
it
may
have
been
just
a
little
bit
of
dumb
luck.
The
timing's
been
really
good.
Rj
was
not
that
much
a
part
of
the
national
dialogue
and
I
think
RJ
being
restorative
justice.
I
think
it's
becoming
much
more
part
of
the
dialogue
now
so.
A
I
would
like
to
explain
it
in
contrast
to
what
conventional
criminal
justice
is,
and
that
is
a
rule-based
adversarial
response
where
the
net
outcome
is
is
typically
punishment
and
RJ
is
really
philosophically
different.
It
is
a
relational
based
response,
centering
the
needs
and
wants
of
the
harmed
party
and
acknowledging
that
responsible
parties
have
obligations
to
make
amends
with
the
hope
that
the
net
outcome,
some
people
say
healing
I
I
find
that
that
is
a
little
too
strong.
A
The
net
outcome
is,
is
a
a
a
desired
positive
result,
rather
than
adverse
results,
which
is
what's
so
hap
often
happens
in
the
conventional
system,
so
it
it
is.
It
is
personal
and
relational
as
opposed
to
rule-based
it
is
emotionally
taxing.
It
actually
asks
a
lot
of
people
who
cause
harm
and
somewhat,
unfortunately,
we
don't
ask
a
lot
of
people
who
have
caused
harm
in
the
in
our
conventional
responses
to
make
amends
in
any
way.
We
extract
things
from
them.
A
B
A
A
A
Crushing
inmates
or
convicts
is
one
thing:
trusting
human
beings
is
another,
the
other
aspect
of
it,
and
this
is
not
surprising.
In
our
society
we've
we
Outsource
everything
right.
We
Outsource
food
production,
we
also
Outsource
accountability,
and
so,
in
the
olden
days,
communities
used
to
figure
out
how
to
address
their
own
conflicts.
But
now
we
ship
it
off,
and
decision
makers
are
removed
from
the
factors
that
influence
the
harm
and
it
just
becomes
it
people
resort
to
what
they
know
and
if
they
know
punishment,
that's
what
they
resort
to.
A
Well,
so
Vermont
is
ahead
of
the
curve
in
many
respects,
every
county
has
access
to
a
community
Justice
Center
that
uses
an
RJ
model.
I
would
like
the
legislature
to
loosen
some
of
the
restrictions
that
have
been
put
on
what
kinds
of
cases
can
can
go
to
RJ
and
actually
I.
Think
a
bill
may
have
just
been
signed.
That,
in
part,
does
that
New
Zealand
has
scaffolded
their
entire
Juvenile
justice
system
on
restorative
justice
principles.
There
are
a
couple
of
cities
in
England
that
have
declared
themselves
restorative
cities.
A
We
have
this
misconception
in
this
country
that
RJ
is
simply
a
programmatic
response
to
particular
low
so-called
low-level
crimes.
It
really
is
a
way
of
being
in
a
way
of
interacting
and
I'm
excited.
We
will
be
offering
a
course
in
the
spring,
at
Vermont,
long
graduate
school,
that
I've
called
designing
restoria,
and
the
idea
is
if
you
were
to
create
a
place
from
the
ground
up,
built
on
and
predicated
upon
restorative
values
and
principles.
What
would
that
look
like
all
right
systems,
Transportation
Health,
Care
education
law.
B
Enforcement
you're
taking
me
right
into
my
next
question:
Vermont
is
considering
building
a
major
jail
facility
that
will
cost
millions
and
millions
of
dollars,
and
you
know
I
I,
believe
I
I
serve
on
the
Williston
restorative
justice
center
as
a
volunteer
and
I'm.
Also
on
the
executive
Council
newly
this
I've
been
there
for
like
two
years,
so
I'm
still
learning
but
the
financial
realities
of
these
restorative
justice,
centers,
it's
tough
and
every
year
they
get
reviewed
and
every
year.
B
B
The
women's
prison
quite
often
is
that
we
close
the
women's
prison
and
we
put
all
the
non-violent
offenders
in
a
on
a
campus
one
of
the
empty
college
campuses
or
a
piece
of
property
or
whatever,
with
housing
where
they
could
be
educated,
where
they
could
create
their
own
businesses,
create
a
venture
that
would
create
some
income
for
the
facility.
They
could
have
their
children
live
with
them
and
manage
a
daycare.
B
They
could
grow
their
own
food
and
they
would
be
free
to
grow
and
prosper
to
re-enter
Society
with
skills,
because
many
of
these
women
in
the
prison
system
are
there
because
of
the
men
that
they
were
with
or
people
that
they
were
with,
that
pulled
them
into
what
ended
up,
putting
them
in
jail.
So
that's
a
thought
that
I
had
have
that
I'm,
really
trying
to
fight
and
move
forward.
B
A
Anyone
can
make
it
happen,
Melinda,
it
is
you
so
Howard
Zaire.
The
EHR
is
some
people
say
the
the
the
grandparent
of
the
modern
RJ
movement,
and
he
did
a
presentation
for
the
long
graduate
school
a
couple
of
weeks
ago
and
one
of
the
things
that
he
said,
and
it
really
resonated
with
me
was
the
punishment
is
supposed
to
be
the
separation.
A
The
punishment
is
not
supposed
to
be
the
cruelty
of
the
place
that
someone
has
sent
when
they
are
separated,
so
we
have
so
much
to
learn
from
some
other
countries
and
and
Norway
in
particular,
comes
to
mind.
Yes,
people
are
separated
when
they've
caused
significant
harm,
but
they're
not
treated
like
animals
and
they're
given
skills
and
they
can
have
visitors
and
they
can
work
on
becoming
better
human
beings.
A
It
is
absolutely
impossible
to
visit
a
correctional
facility
in
Vermont
and
possibly
think
that
someone's
going
to
get
better
by
virtue
of
that,
and
so
unless
we
are
deliberately
trying
to
further
marginalize
people,
we
need
to
do
something
fundamentally
different
from
what
we're
doing
right
now.
So
I
love
that
campus
idea.
Frankly,
I
don't
think
anyone
should
be
sent
to
prison
unless
they
pose
a
present
and
ongoing
risk
of
harm
to
other
people.
A
B
A
B
And
imagine
if
we
could
take
that
money
and
put
it
into
a
campus
situation
where,
where
people
like
me
and
and
so
many
people
in
the
state
would
say,
hey
I'll
volunteer
my
time
and
I'll
go
down
to
this
campus
and
I
will
teach
accounting
and
I'll
teach
marketing
and
and
I
bring
my
skills
and
my
leadership
to
these
women
and
help
them
to
find
a
path
for
a
future.
There'd
be
a
lot
of
money
saved.
Wouldn't
there
be.
A
There
is
no
question
that
there's
a
there's
a
way
to
save
money
and
get
better
outcomes.
You
know,
so
you
think
about
publicly
traded
companies
they're
accountable
to
their
bottom
line.
You
know
that's
financial
and
result-based
accountability.
We
don't
do
a
great
job
of
that
in
government.
What
is
the
return
that
we're
getting
for
incarcerating?
So
many
people,
and
one
of
the
things
we
know
is
that
incarceration
is
what's
called
a
criminogenic
risk
factor.
It
increases
the
likelihood
that
someone's
going
to
end
up
back
in
jail,
so
that
just
makes
no
sense
at
all.
A
So
could
we
save
money
by
not
incarcerating
people
and
by
working
with
them
to
give
them
the
skills
to
become
better
human
beings?
The
people
who
probably
they
were
meant
to
be
all
along
absolutely
and
honestly
that
takes
courage
and
I'm
increasing.
In
the
view,
the
courage
has
to
come
from
legislators.
B
B
The
whole
thing
was
when
the
doors
shut
and
the
even
everything
about
it
was
is
horrific,
but
I
mean
at
the
end
of
the
day
you
you
end
up
with
a
human
being
who
actually
grows
and
prospers
and
then
becomes
a
a
someone
who
contributes
to
society
as
opposed
to
continuing
to
pound
the
trauma
of
being
incarcerated
in
these
really
horrible
places.
Okay,
so
I
want
you
to
explain
to
my
viewers
who
are
like
oh
yeah.
Well,
that's
all
about
the
response.
What
about
the
harmed
party?
B
What
are
the
benefits
to
the
to
the
to
the
harmed
party?
Like
I?
We
had
a
panel
where
this
young
man
stole
sneakers
from
from
from
dicks,
and-
and
you
know
it
was
so
interesting.
Well,
it's
a
whole
different
story.
I'll
talk
to
you
offline
about
it
when
this
is
over,
but
the
harmed
party
is
part
of
this
process.
Talk
about
that
a
little
bit
about
how
this
benefits
them
as
well.
A
One
of
the
things
that
reach
researchers
have
discovered
is
pretty
significant
lack
of
satisfaction
for
victims,
a
term
I
don't
tend
to
use,
but
I
think
that'll
just
help
from
Clarity
purposes,
because
they
either
don't
have
any
voice
within
the
response
to
the
harm
they
suffered
or
it's
very
constrained.
So
as
a
prosecutor,
I
used
to
have
my
Advocates
give
a
so-called
Victim
Impact
statement
so
very
much
within
the
confines
of
that
piece
of
paper
and
the
confines
of
the
criminal
legal
system.
A
What
response
do
you
want
and
I'd
meet
with
victims,
and
my
first
thing
that
I'd
say
is
what
punishment
you
want
to
see.
It
already
started,
putting
blinders
on,
and
so
the
RJ
starts
really
with
the
first
question
to
the
personal
harm.
What
do
you
want
and
what
do
you
need-
and
that
is
just
a
fundamentally
different
approach
than
what
rule
was
broken
and
what
punishment
is
available,
and
so
the
satisfaction
from
harmed
parties
is
much
greater
in
the
restorative
response
and
I
should
say
this:
is
it
a
magic
Panacea
for
all
our
ills?
A
B
Want
to
know
I
want
I
I
want
you
to
talk
to
my
viewers
about
those
folks
who
are
concerned
about
what
is
being
perceived
as
rising
crime
in
Vermont
and
particular
cities
like
Burlington,
and
the
cuts
to
funding
for
the
police
force
and
the
reduction
in
Uniforms
on
the
streets.
A
lot
of
people
are
torn
between
more
police
officers
or
less,
and
it's
a
conundrum
happening
in
the
largest
city
in
in
Vermont.
Talk
to
us
about
that.
B
A
One
of
the
things
that
we
know
is
that
a
credible
risk
of
being
caught
actually
is
an
effective
deterrent,
whereas
punishment
and
the
prospect
of
punishment
is
not
a
particularly
effective
deterrent,
because
people
aren't
looking
that
far
down
the
road,
so
I-
and
this
may
not.
My
colleagues
in
the
RJ
movement
may
not
necessarily
support
this.
You
might
not,
which
is
fine,
I,
think
police
presence
that
creates
a
credible
risk
of
being
caught
actually
serves
some
value
now.
B
Burlington
is
a
very
humanitarian
city
as
as
is
most
of
Vermont
and
and
I
and
I
do
feel
that
that
there
needs
to
be
I.
Remember
the
days
when
I
was
on
the
Burlington
Business
Association
board
and
I
was
chairing
it
where
we
had
community
policing,
and
there
was
more
of
a
presence
of
of
officers
who
knew
all
the
store
owners
and.
A
B
A
A
What's
unique
about
the
master's
degree
is
that
it
was
offered
at
a
law,
school
and
so
just
fundamentally,
that's
a
very
different
way.
Thinking
about
law,
school
and
many
students
earn
both
degrees,
dual
degree.
It's
a
JD
law
degree
and
and
the
Master's
Degree.
The
certificate
is
has
primarily
been
taken
by
folks
who
are
already
out
in
the
workforce
and
realize
they
need
that
they
want
to
make
an
adjustment,
including
some
folks
who
are
doing
RJ
work
already.
So
how
can
people
get
involved?
A
They
can
reach
out
to
me
and
come
join
our
program,
but
that
for
your
listeners,
every
Community,
Justice
Center,
every
Court
diversion
program
relies
on
volunteers
and
I
have
to
say
I
feel
like
there
are
a
lot
of
people
who
have
very
strong
feelings
about
the
criminal
justice
system
and
Punishment,
but
they're
based
on
emotion
and
not
necessarily
Hands-On
information
and
I
I
promise.
You
you
sit
in
and
watch
a
responsible
party
and
a
harm
party
find
Harmony.
A
Reconciliation
and
honest,
amends
an
apology
and
your
perspective
on.
What's
the
right
way
to
respond
to
harm
and
crime
will
be
fundamentally
different,
I've
been
doing
some
training
with
law
enforcement
officers
and
when
they
see
that
distinction,
it's
just
so
heartening
to
see
even
police
recognize
that
a
different
approach
is
important
and
appropriate.