Chittenden County, Vermont Town of Colchester, 19 Jul 2022

Previous Meeting

⏯

youtube image

►

From YouTube: Colchester Planning Commission - July 19, 2022

Description

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://clerkshq.com/Colchester-vt?docId%3DPLANAGENDA%26path%3DPLAN%252CPLAN_Agendas%252CPLANAGENDA%252C&sa=D&source=calendar&ust=1658836955023342&usg=AOvVaw21hLTp3eCg0nKyhGErlce1

00:00:00 Call to Order
00:00:03 Agenda Considerations
00:00:12 Comments and Questions from the Public
00:00:19 Amendments to the Colchester Development Regulations, Supplement 44
03:02:42 Development Regulations Supplement 44 Timeline, Next Steps
03:02:49 Planning Commission Meeting Schedule
03:08:35 Staff Updates
03:08:45 Minutes of June 21, 2022

This video belongs to http://www.cctv.org and published with permission under Creative Commons License CCTV Center for Media & Democracy Programming is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International License.

A

Meeting to order it's 704 first item on the agenda is, is reserved for changes to the agenda items and order. Are we all set there? Yes, no changes, comments and questions from the public not related to the agenda. We're all set there all right. So here we go continue. Consideration of amendments to the colchester development regulation, supplement, 44.

A

and we'll let kathy start right off with a okay. So I think.

B

Just to give you a quick primer on the rest of the agenda, it is.

B

So most of the agenda is in order of its appearance and the regulations, except for the lakeshore changes that way. If anyone were to come just for that item, they wouldn't have to stay through the rest if they don't want to so just respecting the interest we've seen.

B

Bear with me mouse is without a battery.

A

C

A

D

Are nowhere yet starting.

A

B

All right make sure three, so we did get through quite a bit of this. Last time we did flag a few things specifically to return to I'll start with the green infrastructure requirements. We were going to talk about those. If you recall a lot of those were copied over from ls1 and ls2. They don't exist anywhere else in the regulations, except for the lakeshore districts, so where they exist in ls1 and ls2.

B

They are written in such a way that if you were to meet the standard that's outlined, you could increase your coverage on the lot for ls1 and ls2. You could increase that indefinitely conversation as a reminder that the commission had last time was: is it appropriate to keep the same language to increase it indefinitely? I think there was agreement across the board that up to 100 percent was not the right number.

B

You guys were going to give it some thought as to is there a number at all or do we just require this and there is no increase. So your options in considering this are to not have a green infrastructure requirement to have one but have no bonus attached to it or to have one and have some level of bonus between what is allowed for coverage, which is about 40 up to some number of your choosing up to 100 percent.

B

I put this one solidly in the bucket of policy that I don't have a strong professional recommendation on.

E

A lot of the lots that are currently used are pretty much as much coverage as you would think anybody would want. There's limited parking, there's it's kind of tough. Even I mean in this, especially in this district. It's very interesting, but I don't think you can really increase much lower coverage. There's no green there's or the opportunities that are far and few in between.

C

E

Maybe to stick with the footprint, you have and be happy that.

A

Yeah, what do you think serena, okay,.

F

I just I'm just a little confused about so sorry, just just some clarification, so I was looking at um you know the uses. You know the uh in article 1 or article 10, and I was thinking on ls4 the general categories I was looking at that and how that might apply like what would be allowed in ls4 would determine to me kind of log coverage like, and maybe I'm way off here. So just correct me if I'm wrong but like it said, uh roadside stands for sale of produce grown on the premises.

F

That was not. You couldn't do that, but I'm thinking on ls4.

D

F

Know those lots have big land. You know a lot of land on them and if someone wanted to do that, if it was conditional or something, then I don't know if that would have anything to do with the law coverage or limiting it or expanding it.

B

um That's a fair question. I think something to keep in mind is that if you do increase coverage based on a use, that's atypical, that's not very common in how most towns would do it. um The other thing I would caution you about is that if you tie it to use, it is very difficult to go backwards.

B

So, if you were to say this particular use could have 80 coverage and that use cease to exist or become something else once people have gotten used to that parking or they've put a building there.

B

It's very I'm not sure you could even legally require them to tear down that building. If there was a change in use that you would have associated with something with less lock coverage, I think it would be really challenging to tie coverage to use.

F

Okay, so, let's just say, someone wanted to open up a little farm stand and grow. I mean some of those lots, look like they could grow some vegetables or flowers or something, and they wanted to have a stand, and they could have a way of you know coming in and parking and everything like that. Would this limit their ability to do that if we decided it could be a conditional use.

B

If you had a lot, that was large enough to do all of that, um my guess is you're not running into coverage issues with the 40 that was allowed. If you had enough space to do that sort of agricultural operation, your parking is going to be under that 40 percent.

B

For that particular example, anyway, yeah yeah. I don't think it would limit that if that was okay, just.

F

On the ls4 side, yeah.

B

F

Feel, like you know, there's a lot of land there. If someone wanted to do that.

B

Yeah so- and there are certainly when you're talking about agriculture- uh quite a few state exemptions and additional permissions that exists beyond any other use. So there's some protections in statute, state statute.

F

So then, would we decide I'm sorry to take up time, I'm just like trying to think this through. So when we look at general categories, if it was not allowed, could we make it conditional a conditional use for this roadside stand for the sale of produce grown on the premises, yeah.

B

Would it be okay if we talked about the whole table together yeah if we're not tying it to the green infrastructure? Okay, yeah! Now I'm happy to talk through it. Okay, I don't think we spent much time on it last time. So, okay, great.

D

I was planning on.

B

Absolutely walking through that one because I don't think we have yet yep.

A

We're getting there, I think, rebecca.

G

We're just talking about green infrastructure.

G

Plus three and four I kinda agree, the three doesn't really apply. It could apply to some of them and four it's in the larger lots. I think what we need to do is envision what those increases, what the potential is and see if that meets our goals and missions for.

D

G

These two different terms see if it's kind of outside our vision for it and right now I don't have that answer. I don't know how we could go about doing that. Maybe you look at a typical residential lot and see what that would mean and then take a look at one of the larger lots.

B

Yeah, my guess is that.

H

B

What the 40 as of right, reflects, so you already have the 40 coverage in there and it's a question of whether or not you would get a bonus on top of that. If you do certain of you know, I say, especially if you're looking at lakeside, I would wager um that a strong majority of those properties are well over 40, already, um probably as high as 80 or 90 of them are well.

I

B

40 on the lakeside, so I think at least on ls3 or the lakeside. I don't know that any bonus you give is really, unless you were talking something closer to 100.

B

It's either give no bonus or give 100. I think at that point any other numbers probably unrealistic. Yeah.

A

B

Three for four there's there's, I think, a lot more room to carve something out if you wish. You did consider last time, maybe having no bonus and just requiring it to happen anyway, um but there is a lot of space between 40 and and 100. I don't know what the right number will be. The properties are also different.

B

There's a lot of variety on the on the non-lake side, between some very large properties that don't have much on them already to properties that sort of resemble the ones across the street as far as and there's also quite a few shared lots.

B

um I don't know that, even if I found an average, it would tell you much.

G

On some of these larger lots, I don't know what the acreage is, the ones that it's around 10. I don't know if they're that large right, they're even larger, even that.

B

Large one that has the the condominium units is over 10 acres.

G

Or close, so let's take that if that one was forty percent, you know up to the forty percent was allowed. What would that look like.

B

Quite a bit quite.

G

B

E

You also kind of have to look at topography of that side of the lot of rock bed, underneath it's for testing and where the water is going to go once it comes down rain, water, runoffs and the rest of it. I think kind of interesting how much you want to allow to be built on that side period, yeah and what.

B

You want it to.

E

Look like down the road.

B

Yeah 40 is pretty much in line with what I have consistently seen in a lot of um mid-sized suburban developments.

B

You know when you're talking about your two to three units per acre type development 40 is pretty common. It allows people to usually have a home and a few structures and a reasonable driveway, and we don't see people hit hit that coverage on most lots where we do have that restriction in. So if somebody comes in and wants to clean a swimming pool or anything, um it's pretty uncommon for someone to run into a coverage issue unless they're on a very small lot and that's at 40, okay,.

G

And so I don't know if you can answer this, but when sarah did the analysis on this was going to look back to the sewer. What the build out would be for east lake shore drive. Was she basing it on the full 40 percent coverage, not even beyond it, but at the 40? They.

B

Did it entirely on density in bedrooms and not lock coverage, um and so we have been very careful as we've.

I

B

Through this to make sure there's not a single extra bedroom or a unit that would be allowed beyond what went into that consideration. So.

G

This over 40 would not increase the number of bedrooms which is related back to us yeah.

D

B

Yeah, I think realistically just be looking at either more accessory structures a little bit more driveway, or even just bigger homes with bigger bedrooms, but still the same number same number of units, just just probably larger yeah.

F

So what would be your uh thought about? What would the worst case scenario be? In terms of you know, it was a land landowner coming in and and really kind of, exploiting that.

B

Yeah, I think 40 again, 40 is a number that we use in a lot of districts across the town, and it is very rare for someone to come in and say I want to do xyz.

B

I want to put in a patio I want to put on a deck. I want to put on a small expansion or a new garage and for us to tell them no you're over your lock coverage, it's very rare and the times that we do. That is usually on the very small lots.

B

If you're talking about lease lots or mobile home parks or some of the lakeshore lots that are, you really have to be well under a quarter acre lot to come into a coverage issue generally, unless you're really just doing a lot a lot of stuff. So 40 is, I would say, more generous than it might sound more more flexible than it might sound.

E

At 40 it doesn't sound like we're, handcuffing anybody or.

B

Except for those really small lots- and I'm not trying to pretend they don't exist because they do they do exist here.

B

You know if you wanted, I could. I could look into the number of privately owned small lots that exist. That's probably your best data point.

E

Probably most of those smaller lots already have more than or forty percent and grandfathered and it's kind of.

B

H

A

I mean 40, it's a reasonable number, I think by the sounds of it. We don't mind the idea, especially since we know we're not growing bedrooms, we're getting a nicer piece of equipment on our property, whatever that is yeah. Personally, I'm not against that yeah.

F

I thought we were just talking about uh ls4 yeah.

B

F

Also, I think we.

B

F

A

We're on here, because we're talking, I think,.

B

What I've heard yeah.

A

Because that was three weeks yeah, it's safe to say, ls3.

B

No 40, whatever the cap is.

A

H

B

That's what I've heard yeah.

A

Absolutely yeah.

G

They have 40 percent or that's.

A

Yeah yeah you'll, probably.

G

Need the rest of the property to yeah.

A

Yeah but parking a car.

B

Is part of it yeah? So then the question is: if you do this green infrastructure, which to be fair, is not required anywhere else, including on other lakeshore properties. So if you're talking about playpoint red rocks, uh porter's point mills point: there's no requirement for those towns or those neighborhoods. Those zones to do this so right.

A

They are restricted by septic, so we're talking.

B

A

Now sewer so we're in two different worlds: well,.

B

Yeah we're really what you're talking about a storm water right. So when.

H

You talk about coverage.

B

So what this is trying to do is have less runoff into the lake sure.

A

And you've got more opportunity if you have a septic tank sitting in your yard, yeah that helps.

B

A

So I think we're good.

B

So there could be. You know this is an extra requirement that doesn't exist on other lake adjacent properties, so you could be very well justified if you want to give them some extra bonus if they need this, but.

F

uh So is this just a recommendation from the regional planning commission, this green plan that they're suggesting I mean there are storm water regulations? I think you.

B

Said they've got this tool. This league of cities in town has the tool I don't know the genesis of including it in ls1 and ls2. I've put it here because somebody liked it well enough to put it on east lake shore or west lakeshore, so I've included it here for you to talk about. I don't know the genesis of why why it was chosen. I understand it's a it's a very good tool.

A

Bonus for the land.

H

A

For the like, yeah.

H

A

But it's all good stuff and if you can jump through all those hoops and you can want to build a little bit nicer, bigger better, I'm not against that and.

H

B

Just just to give you some insight too, anything that impacts more than 10 000 square feet of land disturbance. It's gonna need a local state storm or a local stormwater permit anyway. Okay, that's where I was, and then I don't remember the threshold for the state. I think it just changed rebecca. You know yeah, it might be a quarter acre. I don't know, but there's a state threshold as well.

B

um So any of these big projects, if you're thinking this this um 10 acre lot. For example, if they hit 10 000 square feet of land disturbance, they're getting their own stormwater permits, regardless. Okay,.

F

Good that I just needed that information. Thank you.

A

Answer that question.

B

So I'm hearing leave the green infrastructure requirement. No bonus same for ls3 and four does that represent.

E

I think so yeah.

A

Yeah yeah so I'll shake our heads.

C

B

You so um I'm not going to edit as we go I'll, just trust that I'll do it and I'll show it to you next time.

H

B

Other thing going through that we talked about was whether or not there was a a desire to include any sort of aesthetic or design standards associated with ls3 or ls4. This was something I think you guys wanted to go back and think about. We did make some changes, so this is the draft that was edited last meeting.

B

um I've not edited that section since that meeting.

A

Okay, so we're gonna have a question. You have a question or comment. Yeah.

F

Can you just please.

H

D

A

D

Of course, sorry about.

H

D

Perfect all right.

H

B

So I think I think you guys just wanted to process that, and then uh I don't know how much of it was wordsmithing or just more general comfort with any sort of shell should encourage.

A

Yeah, we were definitely wire, absolutely right, we're still yeah we're still bored on that. He has a lot of discussion. Yeah we're definitely on board with the challenge.

B

Oh, I think, let me just uh scroll up real quick, I think I'm still in ls3 here. Let me just confirm before I start showing you this.

H

B

Ls3, that's the lakeside.

H

B

um There aren't a lot of shelves in here, but I want to highlight them for you to make sure you so.

F

Kevin you uh in article three and what what page you want.

B

I am on in article three right page five, article three page, five in the pdf. If you have the same version as me, it's page 41.

B

But that can get thrown off. I think, based on.

H

Okay, so, um like I.

B

Said there's not a there's, not a lot of shells and those that are in here. I just want to highlight them for you. All sides of instructor shall receive design consideration. That's a shell, but it's a pretty broad open. Shell.

B

um I'm sorry, I'm on three points.

B

Oh sorry, uh number three d3, okay,.

B

So this is the the section that talks about sort of some design criteria.

B

Here your direction last time was you just wanted to continue to think about it.

H

A

Yeah, we didn't want anything concrete, we don't have anything concrete and I think that's all good suggestions so.

B

Just cena still married to any of this. Yes again, this is very strongly policy oriented. I don't think that.

A

We're just hoping to get people building, thinking yeah, hopefully in the right direction. That's our goal! I think it's pretty well stated.

B

You did make a few changes. I know it was like. A month ago there had been something about flat, roofs not allowed. You change that to discourage just as.

A

B

B

You know, I think, that I think it's it's fairly broad with still having some. These are really things you there's a like a if you were to look at a menu. I think there's like you have to do some things on a menu, but it's a pretty broad menu yeah.

B

I think the goal is that this. This ensures that you don't get a very basic box with no windows and a doorway and no attention given whatsoever to the lake side of the road, but I think it still leaves a lot of flexibility for without prescribing that it must be um cornist windows or yeah.

E

Drv gets to look at it as well correct.

B

Yeah they'll probably hate me for it.

E

I'm just saying yeah.

B

You know realistically, when, when my staff goes to review a drb application under this they're gonna say: okay, here's my menu right and they're gonna say going to look for any of these things and do a few check marks and realistically, if they see that none of them are provided they're going to flag that, and if they see that somebody included windows and any you know, four or five of these elements, they're gonna say four or five of these have been included and then the board can go from.

B

There is to negotiate whether that's appropriate yeah. I don't think it's strongly prescriptive, but it does set some expectation to not have a box within those elements.

A

That's our goal: yeah! That's our goal! Absolutely it's not easy! You have anything on that. One.

F

Yeah, just again like I was looking at heights and fences you know and just views of the lake. You know. I think what I heard from the public comment was preserving view views, and um I just I guess it's for me when I drive that down that road. It just irritates me that it feels like automobiles rule that road as opposed to pedestrians.

F

You know, just as I was coming here. It was a family of five. You know with two little children trying to cross the road to get to um ls four. You know they had been at the beach and I just feel like the use of that. You know access um to the bay for beach goers.

F

I feel like there should be four crosswalks along east lakeshore drive. You know, and I know it would slow traffic down and probably irritate people, but I just feel like inhabitants, you know should be able we talk about accessing, you know increasing access and I I think it's unfortunate people have to take their lives in their hands to cross that road, and I just would want to shift a little bit to thinking.

F

You know to make it easier for pedestrians to have egress speakers. I guess that's what anap says to be able to cross that road and get to the.

B

Lake, I'm not sure what we can do in the development regulations.

A

When brian osborne rips that road.

E

Up, that's not what we're discussing, but that's all.

A

Right when brian osborne rips the road up no way, that's.

F

That's the person it does say, considers challenges to a result. Yeah.

B

A

B

Of that parking language that we talked about might help you know about not not forcing the vehicles rear end to hang into the street.

F

But when I look like at marble island they have crosswalks there and they're not attached to any sidewalks. They don't go to saigon to cyborg right, you know, so I don't understand why we couldn't put the crosswalks in. I don't know yeah and you live on the.

B

The planning commission cannot put them in, as I.

H

B

All I can say, oh the plan. Okay.

H

The planning commission.

B

Whether the town can or not is a question for a different department and a different board. Okay, but the planning commission can't just okay: thou shalt build the crosstalk.

F

Yeah: okay, okay, okay, yeah.

H

B

I guess I'm so intrigued to hear from rebecca on the design.

G

Pieces as long as it's not dictating what has to go there and I think, do you think it achieves it or do you.

B

Have recommendations.

G

Someone came to the drb with a box with this site, no fenestration on the face in the street. They wouldn't get it through, doesn't sound like anyway, yeah lacking a design review board. I think it's pretty much the best we can.

B

Do you feel like it leaves it open enough that it it allows a variety of creative. I think so approach. I think.

G

B

Heard that was another concern.

G

Yeah I mean, as I pointed out, you know things that aren't exactly flat, but maybe a low smoked roof or something that there's ways of doing it that are pleasant. Looking, I'm just hoping that the drb wouldn't see this and say, okay, that roofs are discouraged, but they say no, no flat roofs, all right. It's it's kind of subjective.

H

G

And it depends on who's on the vrp at the time, but I think it's worth a test. I think we have to do something.

B

Is that phrase one that you wanted to revisit? I don't know.

G

How else to say it because you know most people, like the cottage style punished? Look, that's fine! I don't like to tie designers, hands yeah.

G

I think it's worth a go because I can't continue.

A

If you'd like to have a suggestion, please you have to step up to mike and state your name, even though we're not doing that, but yeah.

J

My name is jason. I live on um south bay, road, okay,.

H

B

Can you spell your last name for me again, I'm sorry.

J

Double apostrophe capital e c: u y e r! Thank.

B

J

I don't really have a dog in this fight other than I just read through that, and it that looked to me like it said, don't be a jerk if you're a jerk and you apply the drb is going to make you do something to make it aesthetically appealing. I I think it looks fine. Thank.

A

You thank you all right. That's about what we're looking for.

B

Okay, I'm going to slide down um just as a reminder for the audience and for the commission. We are still very early in this process, even though it feels like we've been talking about it for a little while um we still have to have a meeting that we would warn a hearing in so that's another meeting, that's not a hearing, then we would have to have a warned public hearing. So that's another opportunity that could take one or more meetings.

B

Then there is a select board, warned public hearing. So at the very very least, there are three more opportunities to think comment for the public and for board members, as you continue to think on this or see something that inspires you somewhere or so at least three more just as a reminder.

A

Okay, oh absolutely, hey. Can I.

F

Have some one more question: I was just wondering about the parking areas, not expanding it or anything, but they just all seem so different on the ls3 side. Is there any way to standardize it a little bit more? So it doesn't look so ragged.

B

I think it's very hard because so much of that is grandfathered.

F

I mean I wouldn't change the size or the amount of parking space they have, but just to make it you know sometimes grass and gravel and sometimes like I don't know, they're all different and I just didn't know if there was a way to get it a little bit more cohesive along the road.

E

I think that goes under the.

D

E

A lot of my grandfather hadn't been there for enough years, and you can't ask somebody to dig up their driveway than parking on for 20 years and put grass there or stone or whatever the.

F

H

E

B

Sorry, I'm realizing my markup was turned off.

H

ah There we go sorry about that um so parking. We did. We finished that last time you guys were comfortable with the parking.

B

H

B

B

That was an ls3.

B

I can't remember I'm sorry so the parking parking.

A

B

This was something I threw a spaghetti at the wall for you to think about. It does not exist in ls one and two.

B

So that's the section e here additional standards for all lots in ls3, no expansion of vehicle use and parking areas may be permitted unless they are located to the side of principal building. So again, this is for ones that are new parking areas. Anybody who comes in and says hey. I want to just expand my parking, I'm still under 40. This says you can't put it in front of the building unless um or even to the side unless a vehicle can park outside of the right of way.

B

So you can't create a new parking area that is six feet deep. For example, standard parking space runs about 18 feet deep um and about nine feet wide. It's a little bit larger than a vehicle, so you don't open your door into people, but um so we would be looking for a number if you like this language that showed that a vehicle could be outside of the right of way. So somebody comes in with a 6x6 space says. This is my new parking area.

B

This would allow the board or staff to say no, you put a vehicle here. Half of it is over the white line and into the road.

B

Beyond that, it also states that you have to be able to enter and exit that space without backing onto the road spaghetti at the wall.

B

I could it's a little strong.

B

um It's meant to reflect what I'd heard from a lot of folks at our meeting about some of the issues, um so this would say if the only thing you have is that nine by 18 space and yep, it's just off the road, but the only way to get in and out of it is to back onto the road that wouldn't be allowed. This.

F

Is only for new construction.

B

This is for new parking.

F

Areas so wouldn't impact.

A

B

That exists today right it's if you come in and say hey now: I've got eight bedrooms because the sewer is in and I gotta put.

A

B

I need more parking.

A

Go ahead come on up to the mic, give your name please.

C

Ken fusey I live on, east lakeshore drive so for e1.

C

When I read that I read you're you're forcing people to park on the side of right of their house- and we said we- we valued having lake view well now you're putting more vehicles blocking lakeview by forcing them to the side of the building. So that's my comment.

A

Okay, thank you.

B

I'm trying to do better with my minutes this time.

A

So we're in a catch deal, because we do not want anything else in that road. There's no doubt about that. Yeah.

F

So that would mean people could back into that space right.

G

I know that there's some spaces- this is more. I went to park on it's actually a building with ls4 and you pulled in and you had to back out into the road, it's very scary. So what I tend to do is you back into the driveway so that when you're leaving it's a little bit safer, but I thought robert had something to say about backing into.

E

One of the state statutes you're not supposed to back out into a thoroughfare.

G

E

Back into your spot, so you go past it and you back in and you pull out because when you're backing out you can't see, I just happen to pull it up online, real, quick to make sure it's right all right so, and that is something if somebody does it's almost oh. If you want to do that great, but we're letting you know now you got to pull past your driveway and back in you can't whip in quick and then back out and expect traffic to stop for you.

B

Yeah, so to it's a very dense paragraph, I think there are three decision points for you here. One is as as was pointed out is: is it would you like it to include that parking new parking new parking should be to the side, or would you prefer it to the front or is there no preference? So that's a decision point for you, but I'd like to hear um on the second is the idea of a space sufficient for a vehicle not on the road.

B

I think I've seen a lot of head nods on that one and then the third is: does the space also have to allow you space to maneuver off the road, or is it sufficient to have a space? That's big enough and hope people do what the law requires of them by backing in.

B

So I think those.

H

B

Three decision points.

A

F

So, what's the rationale for the side parking on the side of.

B

The house, I think it's just it's uh it's it's standard language in some of other, our other districts, about parking to the front um of, and when we say side um it means not in a front yard. I guess I should clarify that, so it wouldn't be allowed in that front yard space.

B

Otherwise, you know, I don't, I think it's about having the presence of a building- typically, I shouldn't say just to ls3, but when you talk about no parking in front of a building, it's so that it it enhances, theoretically, the pedestrian experience and because you are you're feeling building not going down a road just feeling. Cars.

B

That is the idea whether or not.

B

That outweighs the concern about the view of the lake being better than the view of the house. So, theoretically, you would not want to block the view of a nice structure, but in this case there might be a.

F

That is you, that is the thing to weigh yeah.

B

So that's decision point one.

A

So first you have to have enough room to back park in front of the house. That's rule one! If.

B

It was a new parking area.

A

It's a new park here they have to have the 18 feet.

G

18 feet or can they park.

B

Or parallel yeah yeah parallel would be preferred yeah. I think it makes it easier for everyone.

C

B

I'll pull in pillow.

A

Yep as long as they have enough room as long as they're enough room yeah to safely pull and pull out, yeah.

E

So on ls3, just in most cases, there's limited space to even put more parking us on the.

I

E

Do we determine that you know australia, you don't allow any more parking, you're all pretty well filled to the max as it is well.

B

I suppose that's a fourth decision point that I didn't raise: yeah no new parking areas.

E

At all is an option in that would also stop people from putting too big of a place where there's no place for anybody to park that lives. There.

B

So that is an option. Yes,.

F

Just another question: if someone tears down a building, is that considered new construction if they were going to rebuild it? You know on the footprint of the original structure, yeah.

B

So generally, when we review those, if they have a well-established area for parking that is largely dependent on where that footprint is they'd, be allowed to keep that if it was impervious, that was a patio and now they want to make it parking. That's still a new parking area.

B

If that makes sense, um so you have to be reasonable, because if, if somebody were to rebuild their building and suddenly you say no parking, but we would look at historical photographs and try to figure out, um has there been creep lately that comes up creep happens um where somebody has had a space or two associated, but in the last two or three years suddenly they have four more spaces.

B

So we would say: that's not permitted with a tear down and rebuild.

A

What's our uh what's our requirement for parking on a regular, you mean by number yeah two, so we minimum maximums two, you don't have a maximum, no maximum, so we start with two because there will be no creep. You can put four out there yeah for the fact that you can fit four.

B

Again, this is like the to address the people who are coming in saying I want more.

A

But they where they're gonna put them, so what we want to make sure is, they can have all they want, but they have to make sure it's safe within our requirements. So if you can't put more, you can't get the 18 feet that could be put beside the house or in front of the house.

B

When you might not say, as bob said you can have all you want, you might just say no, no.

A

More, no more yeah, it's possible on ls3. I doubt there's anybody neat and.

B

This is this: language is not proposed for ls4. Just to be clear. This is yeah.

E

It's going to last three years.

A

E

Me, if you look at those lots if you've spent any time they've got them pretty well max parked hard surfaces as you can get yeah. I can't think there's anywhere if you drive around and look at them to add more parking spaces.

B

Yeah, some of it is formalizing. It.

C

Where it wasn't.

B

Formalized before I have an application in right now, where they are proposing three new spaces, a tear down and rebuild, had been.

A

So so that that's a good example, so they want three new spaces.

B

I don't remember how many they already have they just labeled them as new right.

A

So the three new spaces that they want as of right now, if they're, six by six, you really can't do much about it- is that right, if.

B

They already have those spaces yeah. These.

A

Are three new ones? These.

B

Are three new? No parking area spaces, not three units? No.

A

That's what I mean three news parking: yes, so they want to stick them in there, but right now we're saying what.

B

Right now, it's cause.

A

They can't get it right away, we can't get, we can't get them into the right of way. There's.

H

A

Right go ahead. Sorry.

H

I'm sorry there's no way they get in the right.

A

Way, those parking spaces, no matter what that's impo, that's right right! Absolutely! So, even though they want three new spaces, they will have to have enough room to pull those cars off the main road. Yes, no matter what.

G

Yes correct without this language, not.

A

G

E

B

E

Would that change.

B

The right-of-way line there is pretty tight. Oh.

A

Yeah, I I actually have no problems with controlling the parking lot, but to keep people doing it because you're a lot you're right, people just scream in there and their cars are hanging out all the time or their motorcycles or whatever. And then they start talking before. You know what they're in danger for themselves see it all the time so.

B

Yeah, I mean, as you guys know, I mean parking. Just came up with such a big issue in our outreach, and so I wanted to have something in here for you to respond to.

B

But it's it's new and it's different and it's.

E

In most cases, if you're increasing parking, you're, also increasing impervious surface correct, that.

B

E

So in this area, on the side of the lake for all we're fighting to clean our lake up to allow them to even have any more parking spaces kind of makes me how much lock coverage do you have and grandfathered in an arrest? That's just.

A

E

All right, we'll give you three more spots and the water can run in the lake that much faster.

A

It's a tough one because you're building a new building, we don't want people crossing the street as much as possible. They'll find parking somewhere right. I mean that's just nature of the beach people who come to visit. They will find parking somewhere, so they find it across the street. The neighbors in one of the neighborhoods start walking the road. We don't want that. We definitely don't want any vehicles in the right of way, so we've eliminated that.

A

But we don't want to. We don't park alone right.

E

Especially like I said.

A

E

Right next to the lake.

A

I'm amazed that there's somebody that can put three more parking spaces or ask for three you're right. Every single lot, it seems, is maxed they've been there for 50 100 years.

A

If we say no more parking spaces, what do you have to go on pictures?

A

Because that's probably yeah.

H

B

We look through historical ortho photography where you can see parking areas.

A

And what they're using now has to be off right away. Obviously,.

H

B

Right, you know we don't I mean, I don't know what the police do. Planning and zoning certainly doesn't go by and see.

A

No yeah- and I understand that part but.

B

Our idea is, and you drive down on a saturday- you know that there's a lot of, I think you can ask anyone who lives in the neighborhood there's probably a lot of people who are parked over yeah, and that might be their only parking, and maybe it's that they were supposed to have one car that fit parallel and they're like we can fit three. If we do this yeah.

A

B

In straight, um it's tough to figure out what people have, but you can't take you can't take exist. You can't take the full extent of existing parking away, because then you render your home unusable, but.

A

Our problem isn't with: what's there now, obviously yeah we're gonna allow that. So our problem is what do we do about new stuff yeah.

G

I do like that it kind of states what you're looking for.

F

G

I like what that states, what we're looking for for parking to try to make the streets safer.

D

G

I hear about the view, but there's not too many properties that have a side yard that would meet these standards.

G

It's pretty tight, yeah yeah and someone would have to probably buy the lot next door to tear down the structure and put parking out. You can see that, but then you'd have cars instead of a two-story.

B

I house largely this would address the people who are trying to formalize what they're already doing that. Maybe they shouldn't be doing.

A

Sure come on up.

I

Lake shore drive um some of the properties across on l3, are camps and they're closed and then others are homes. So how does that play in when they're talking about snow removal and all of those components for when someone's actually living there in the winter time? How does that play into the parking piece yeah? Thank you.

B

Yeah, I mean snow. The extra tricky thing is that um you can't do you can't officially do a site plan or apply site plan standards to a single family home in vermont? It's exempt from site plan review and snow storage is something that we look at in a site plan review for as a site plan standard for lots. That could be so it's it's pretty chat, it's common sense, but from a legal review perspective, I think it would be very very hard to consider that, because it is a site plan, standard.

B

A

So I think we're we're happy about the idea that we think there should be something correct. We're.

I

All looking at yeah yeah.

A

We're all looking like there should be something type in this.

D

A

Of a direction now you.

D

Haven't limited.

A

Anything on this other other than the fact that this is what's expected.

A

So the three new spots come in under this, you will look at them. You know say this is the criteria. If you fit this, you will get your 3d spots.

B

How do you feel about the parking in the front of the building some guidance? There would be. I.

A

Personally, if you can make it safe but just soon have in front of the building, it doesn't bother me that much.

D

Only because on ls3.

A

It's such a tight road, anyways right, you know it's, it's just so tight. Do.

F

You know the sewer like with the road and kind of picking up the homes is that going to either expand the opportunity for parking or we'll keep it exactly the same. Do you know.

A

That's a good question. I.

B

Have no idea, I believe that the intention is not to make any impacts there. Yeah.

F

Could we just could we would you be able to ask brian like just that question.

B

Yeah, I'm sure it's going to tell the intention. I know, because it came up in the way in the sewer discussions is that they're in my right, family there's no impact on is going. There's no need to buy right-of-way, there's no need to tear down homes for it, but it's not going to expand.

F

It's going to stay the same, the road is going to stay the same and whatever parking people had is going to remain the same.

B

Yeah I mean I can't speak to striping if the shoulder width will change or something, but I don't, I don't think that's like. I think it's going to look a lot like it does now. Just pressure yeah.

B

So, just because this one's super easy am, I hearing at least heard from rich and maybe a nod from sarita that there was no strong desire to keep the side of the building.

B

That would mean removing that highlighted section there.

A

G

I'm not 100 on that. No, no, because you don't have the room in front of your house, you know the place. You can put it this on the side. Otherwise you have no parking.

G

I think it has to something has to be in there.

C

G

Most of the properties don't have the side to them, but there are a few properties that you could well.

A

This won't force if she takes that out. This is gives you both opportunities to be in the front and on the side and.

G

She's taking it out yeah.

A

B

It takes it out from the unless so it says it doesn't require you to beat this. If you could put it in the front, you could yeah as drafted here. You would not be able to put a.

A

I

B

In the front, okay,.

G

So this would give the option front.

B

Yes, if I remove that it would give them the option in the front.

A

Especially if they're building new, they will take that into consideration with whatever they're building the door comes out. The side walkway.

E

A lot of this might be a move point too, because they already have the maximum coverage. They can't.

B

Apply to one property on the whole street exactly exactly.

A

Yeah, that's exactly right might be working way.

E

Too hard for something that they can't do anything anyhow, yeah.

A

That's a good point.

B

So I think I think I saw a third yeah some of these edits I'm gonna make later. But since I'm right here, yeah.

A

I'm just going to do it right.

B

In front of you, yep, um okay,.

H

Let's keep going, I think.

F

Can you just say what page and articles.

B

I'll, let you know when I stop great.

F

B

This one's highlighted, but you talked about it, so this was that ceiling for coverage. You've said so basically we'll take this whole thing out: no increase for green infrastructure. Actually, what the heck I'm right here.

B

um But keep the requirement, I think, is what you said.

G

We're still in ls3 right, you.

B

Are in ls4 now.

B

G

B

So they're, both in article three, um I think that this is very similar language. As far as the design standards go, you didn't make any changes to those.

B

um The other okay, so now I'm gonna jump because the other pieces that involve ls3 and ls4 are those tables.

B

Are you, okay? Jumping to that section.

H

Okay, give that a quick, save.

B

So we talked at length.

D

E

Stored separately.

D

B

Have to show you this, but don't make edits. I don't seem to have the raw one here.

B

Sorry I couldn't get on the network, so I had to put things on the thumb drive and it looks like I put the same table twice.

B

B

So I will zoom in in a moment it's just faster to scroll.

H

B

Dimensional standards, we talked at length about the appropriate height limits. You guys agreed to leave 40 feet for ls4. That is consistent with what is allowed for the building height in r2, which is what it currently is and what's sort of in the neighborhoods behind it. Ls3 we talked about.

B

I think we'd had 20 feet in as a placeholder. What we talked about is that 20 feet does not get you two stories. Unless you have a flat roof, it's almost impossible.

B

If you are the way that we measure so we measure to the peak, I looked at a lot of examples of two basic two stories without like vaulted um or really tall ceilings, uh largely what I kept coming up with for a traditional two story was about 25.5 feet.

H

Is that sound for a.

B

Sorry 12 on 6.

H

E

Standard roof pitch: let's just call it.

B

That's standard, I believe, yeah.

E

But I'm not a builder yeah.

B

So for a standard roof pitch 25 and a half 25 feet, 6 inches would get you two stories.

F

Could they still do uh like if, on the slope like a walkout basement two stories.

B

Yeah, so it is so something to keep in mind. Is it wouldn't necessarily be two stories at the road level, so we measure from average pre-construction grade. So if you are on a slope, as most in ls3 are you're starting to measure below the road grade.

B

So if the road grade is here, you're not measuring it from the very bottom point again, it's the average pre-construction. So you take the four points of the building and you figure out what the average elevation is between those four and you measure from that point, and it's there to the top.

B

So you would not necessarily on those properties, have two.

D

B

At the road because you're not measuring from the.

F

Road, so you'd have one story, maybe on the slope side and then one story: the road.

B

Depending on the slope.

E

Can I kind of see if I can get this right? So let's say you got a 10 foot slope. You got two points that are on the top two at the bottom. That means you. Five foot starts where you do it.

B

Yep so you're five feet below road grade level to.

E

B

Start with, and then your 20 feet above that, according to this.

E

Is the bottom of the slope where the water is or where the building starts.

B

Where the building is so average pre-construction.

E

And is that so, let's say.

B

You can't build it up the reason we use that language is, you can't put yourself a mound in and then build it on top of that and say I'm starting from up here. Yeah.

E

B

You would not be able to build up that slope. Yeah.

E

B

It all out and do 25 feet so average pre-construction.

E

And I assume that some of the measurements from the bottom have to be so many feet above the high water mark because of flood constraints.

B

Yes, or else they have to meet certain floodproofing designed elements um but again, keep in mind that a lot of these are rebuilds. They use the same foundation.

B

And so their their points are set for them as to what they're, starting from.

E

So, do we want to limit it at 30, feet or 28, or because 25 and a half is yeah minimal, give them a little bit of leeway.

B

And again, this is making a broad assumption that you were looking at two-story buildings, which we were. If you are not that's, not the right number either. If you're looking at one or I don't know one and a half.

F

It's interesting looking from the water, how many are going straight up with like even almost two sometimes stories below the road and then two above um it's just interesting. It's just kind of very.

B

Yeah I'd hope him and I've talked about getting onto the beach side. Now that the I am not familiar enough with what is present on the lakeside on the lakes on the lakeside um and how many are are really built up below what you can see. um I'd hope to bring you that sort of information but yeah. I think quite.

H

A bit yeah kayak trip- maybe I don't know.

B

Boat trip, bob's gonna, take us um so.

B

I think you need a little more than 25 feet if you are looking at. I didn't see anything less than 25.5 steeper pitches, we're closer to 27 or 28, but those are pretty atypical pitches, um probably.

A

So 28 30, we know we don't want tight, we they could be back on that one rebecca does that include a basement.

F

Does that mean a basement.

B

Yeah, I I don't think most most of those properties are taking advantage of every square foot they have so.

H

It could be like a walk out two stories.

B

Yeah I mean basement is a is a term that doesn't mean that much when you're it could be ground level, but still living space or below grade at the road. But so it could theoretically be three depending on the pitch of the from the lake side.

B

But you would not see three on the roadside at 28 feet unless you had a very flat flat flat lot.

B

You'd be really tight at 28 feet for a pitched roof.

E

I don't believe, there's a flat lot on your last three.

B

um And then most of these have a different height for a flat roof which we didn't talk about, but um so you could have a second height listed, most of them about five feet less, if you're not having any sort of pitch on it.

E

We're doing all we can to discourage the black roof anyhow. So why not do that as well you're going to go that route 28 with a standard roof and 22 with a flat that'll help discourage it even more.

B

Okay, so that gives you about 11 feet per floor, which should be enough for.

A

They're, all nine foot ceilings. That's for sure. It's standard.

G

A

Now, if you're going to the new houses, they're only nine feet but.

G

For the small cottages, it's usually eight feet or below yeah.

A

Well, they're gonna when they build from scratch, they'll go from the max every time.

B

Yeah, so to put it in context, I I did look at some of the newest rebuilds.

F

B

Pretty much hit their 40 feet, yeah.

H

G

B

G

On flat, lots too.

B

Those ones are yeah, they're, sort of.

B

Some of them, but yeah they hit their 40 feet and it's challenging for us. We can't get out there and drop a tape from the top right. um We do ask them to certify it through an engineer whose professional credibility or their architect is on the line it's the best we can do, but those were permanent within two feet of 40 feet: 38 39, 39 and a half.

A

B

Every single one of them, so if we looked.

F

At the tallest one on east lake shore in the ls3 and took 10 feet away from that. That would be above what we're looking at in terms of maximum.

B

Yeah I mean it's going to vary at what you see on the road based on what that slope is, but generally.

F

Roughly okay, you.

B

Take 10 feet away. You take a story away generally: okay,.

F

I, like it mob.

G

East lake shore drive where it does flatten out. You could have a house.

G

Whatever we decide, 28.

B

I mean 28 feet. Please correct me: 28 feet on a flat lot: you're, not getting much of a pitch right. Eight foot ceilings, that's 24 of it. You put in space between.

G

Yeah he's not unusual, and a lot of pitches in vermont are steeper than six twelve. Okay.

D

Builders, like six twelve.

G

B

So 28 just 28 feet on a flat lock, get you three stories in a pitched roof. I don't. I don't think.

G

B

G

Someone might want to stick a door.

H

B

So I heard 28 feet for a pitched roof and I heard bob throw out a shorter number 23 for a flat, but I didn't hear anyone else weigh in on that.

B

Did you want a difference for flat nothing worth.

G

Definitely, it definitely would probably look like a three-story building. It's on a flat rod.

B

On a flat lot, yeah with a flat roof, you could do three stories. Yeah.

A

There'll be a lot of flat roof.

B

A

If we don't do anything that we all flat roofs, no matter how discouraging we would like to say so,.

B

I'm hearing 23 four flat.

A

F

So when people spoke at the public hearing about maintaining the character of east lake shore drive, do you envision that this kind of regulation would help to meet that request?.

B

You know, and nothing is going to keep it exactly what's there, but I think that the newest buildings, from what I understand are a full story taller than most of what's existed there. Historically, I don't know that there's anything that would have hit 40 feet, that's older than maybe the last 10 years. Does that sound even less having not spent a lot of time out there 10 years ago, yeah. That's.

H

Not I don't know for anyone, who's, that'd,.

A

Be the oldest or less than five.

B

Less than five yeah, so I think you know: does it get you that camp character, not necessarily because again, as we've said, it's very hard to define, but it doesn't let you get as far away from it good. If that makes more sense, yep.

H

Okay, that's our goal. Okay, so.

B

You guys are comfortable with 28-23 leave 40 for ls4. I don't think.

A

Ls4 is fine. I.

B

Don't think taking five feet off, that's gonna do much. I don't know that there's much benefit for a flat roof size, but we could do it. The others say 35..

B

You want to be consistent.

F

Are we talking ls4.

B

Ls4 yeah yeah, so 35 for flat roof.

A

Sure if it's the same.

B

I don't know that it does much to be honest with you, but.

H

G

Keeps it consistent with it says it's 35 flat marshall.

H

Yeah, let me scroll up a little show you something a little.

B

H

B

Typical r2, so r2 40 foot to the ridge 35 to the flat. Oh.

H

B

Yeah I see that now there we go so r2. Everything else distinguishes between original flat.

B

Oh there's one interesting 34 foot one. I don't know if that was a typo, oh yeah,.

H

I see it, it's like.

B

haha Gd4 at the bottom.

H

You want to be.

B

Consistent, I'm.

A

Good yeah absolutely.

B

Maybe in a future update we'll figure it out if we should get rid of all the differences with flats there, but.

A

B

Okay, so ls4 40.

H

G

B

Yeah, that's the wacky one. I don't know. What's going on there, eve ridge.

J

B

Oh, I think that's no gd3 is the form based code, so I don't know, what's going on there, we're not going to go to x on the list, so we're just going to ignore that one. I think that there's two more things to discuss with respect to anything on east lakeshore, that is the table of uses. I think you guys talked about it last time, but I'm hearing, I think we made it all the way through it, but.

A

I just definitely made it.

H

B

Yes, I had a question about farmstand or something well: pumpkin ban, restaurants.

F

Cultural facilities and marine repair services and.

C

F

Of those can be on east lakeshore drive.

B

Let me go to the top here and I do want to at least acknowledge both for the record and as a point that was raised. You all in your packet received an email from rick davey to be clear. He provided those comments before the draft was out so his his comments were in response to the original draft, and not so he sent those to me before this was shared.

B

He did raise a question about a use, I think, with respect to multi-families. He also raised a question about mobile homes not being permitted.

B

I will tell you on the record that if you allow a single family home, you must allow a mobile home.

B

And then he also said mobile home. I think.

B

Because the park's not allowed so the park is not a pee, but there was something I do have a letter. If.

H

You guys so just just.

B

To put it on the record.

F

And not not multi-family.

B

um Again, his comments came in ahead of the sharing of the building types which we're going to get to next, and so it was, you know when somebody says multi-family, it could be anything from three units to 50 and that's what currently existed in the rig. So I I think, having spoken to him directly, his his fear about the multi-family was was thinking about something bigger than four.

B

I but I don't want to speak for him other than what his.

H

H

B

Homes should not be allowed in ls1 through ls4, as well as mobile home parks, um but again I'll tell you. Fair housing law is very strong. If you allow a single family, you must allow a mobile home period. Yeah, you can't choose, so um you can not allow mobile homes, but only in places where you do not allow a single family home. So.

H

B

B

Any other comments on the use table at all. Do you want to go through them? Do you want to just respond to questions.

H

You have questions.

B

F

I mean I was just thinking it looks like uh there already is a marine repair service on east lakeshore drive. But what number are you at? So I'm at two point. Three hundred on page five.

B

F

B

Three hundred, I love that they're numbered yeah.

G

B

Well, the question again: I would keep in mind this isn't about permitting what exists it's about preventing new uses. So if you were to allow marine sales, it means somebody could tear down their house and put in a marine sales shop.

B

Anything that's. There is grandfathered as long as it doesn't cease its use for more than six.

F

I'll months, this is just my opinion, but I under conditional use I'd love to see you know a marine repair services. If someone wanted to do that, cultural facilities, which is at point four hundred a restaurant with outdoor seating, a small restaurant without receiving eight point, one hundred those were the three that.

B

I sarita just to be clear: were you talking about last three or four or both.

F

I think it was ls3 and ls4.

B

Just making a note for the minutes.

F

There's been a lot of chat, I don't know if you've seen it if anybody has seen it on the front porch forum about colchester and amenities, and it goes back and forth. You know people don't want to look very 15 comments on there.

F

Don't want to look like essex or williston, but there's another group that would really like more amenities. You know small restaurants, a coffee shop.

G

On east lake shore drive.

F

Well, they didn't say specifically, I think they said in malik.

A

So we're permitted all up with ls1 and ls2 for that right once we got to ls3 we're more calm about putting commercial use out there. I think that was our drive.

G

The other issue was like he said: you know the marine repair shop or something now you're talking about parking more traffic on that road. I think that's where we're kind of coming from. We want to discourage a lot of traffic like that. It's kind of reserved.

F

Well, I think, as long as that, one is grandfathered in you know just I just think, there's going to be more voting, you know more marinas and more need for maintenance and services, but I I think you know a coffee shop, a small coffee shop, again a chance for the community of eastlake to drive.

F

You know to to have a place where they you know, can cross paths with one another and- and people were talking about how you know that I don't know it just seemed like the people who wanted so more amenities, wanted more opportunities to meet community members and have a place to gather meet people.

B

Something that I would offer you, I would recommend at this level to not include those, but we've talked about adventuring into these building typologies. So when you talk about a small coffee shop, um what is that right?

B

What is small should you wish to after this supplement, say boy if something looked and felt like a single family home and served coffee, that's sort of what's my vision again, I'm not speaking for this or even recommending it, but if you as a commission, wanted to proceed down that path, I'd wait for another supplement where we can explore what that looks like in terms of a small shop or what its needs would be.

B

I think it's just more complicated than you'd probably want to get into here, because you probably want to talk about what is it other than just the use? Is it a certain building type? Is it no.

H

More than x square footage is it.

B

Which is you probably, I would recommend you don't want to hold up the other things you're trying to do now to figure that out. Okay did.

A

You want to comment on that.

C

Yeah living in lakeshore 4, I don't feel the need to have a coffee shop on lake shore, 3 or lake shore 4.. If I want to grab coffee I'll go to lake shore, one or lakeshore two, I I don't, we don't need to commercialize lakeshore three in lake shore, four we've got lake shore, one and lake shore. Two for that.

A

That's my comment. Thank you.

E

I'm along the same lines at traffic as well, and making people stop there and crossing across that road. That's already busy if you're coming from the other direction and you throw in you've, got a jiffy mark. The pickled perch the breakfast place at the lakeshore pioneer inn the guilty plate just reopened. There isn't a process of reopening.

A

E

A

D

H

B

So I think I'm hearing no changes from the majority yeah for this one.

B

And I want to speak for you just want to reflect what I've heard yep.

D

A

Always get another book for now, yeah.

D

B

Anything else on the table of uses.

G

Residential buildings.

B

H

B

So what we talked about is again multi-family is as it's. It currently exists in the regulations.

B

Multi-Family is.

B

Anything greater than two units um this would allow you. This creates a new menu for you, and I keep going back to menus where you can say boy, I really don't want a 12 unit multi-family or a 60 unit multi-family, but I'm totally cool with a five-unit townhouse.

B

So this creates just more categories than just multi-family, because it's a big jump from three to sixty. So this gives you a few more tiers. I don't claim that this is fully developed. There's a lot more. We can do with this. I think that it's a very basic start for things. You might choose to be allowed that exist in the world between 2 and 60 units.

B

We could either further develop it now, if you're interested or further develop it in other districts at another time rich- and I talked a little bit about you know- is it appropriate to have these like 12 unit apartment buildings, on like middle road?

B

It kind of different out there um and is there something that would allow you to have something in between where you're like boy? You know these. These townhomes that exist are a different feel than a big 16 unit box. So this is a first look at something like this.

B

I know it's your first look.

G

So, are you saying multi-flex small um three to four.

B

Yes, yes, sorry, let's cut off a little there and.

G

That would be what's allowed on one piece of property, no matter how big or small it is.

B

It would still have to comple. All of these would have to comply with the density. Yes, it's just how you allocate those four units, so um there are actually quite a few already existing on east lake shore on the non-lake side. um Sure I'm gonna get it wrong. Sandy shore terrace sandy shore, I'm.

D

B

It right uh there's a there's, a four plex there. um You probably don't even know it. The brown.

G

B

I think it's blue, it doesn't face the road it sort of sits perpendicular to it. That's four units. Four units they're set up two over two okay, um it's really not much bigger than some of the houses that are there, but there's four. These are apartments. This particular one.

H

G

Guess there are some larger properties.

A

The idea is, we don't want this big box right.

G

Right, but on these bigger pieces of property, you could probably see a development where you could have.

G

Let's say I might say, duplexes out there scattered on the property and it would look like individual little homes around it, but there are duplexes, but that would be multiple units on the same property. Does that kick you into a multi, a large multiplex, even though they're little.

B

No, this is all about what the the structure is.

B

And further down the road, you know with more consideration, you might say boy, especially on big properties, not necessarily east lakeshore. You might say we're tired of 50 duplexes existing in a subdivision. Let's look for some variety. You can't have more than 50 of any given type, so this is something you could build on in the future.

B

It's got limited applicability, I think for east lakeshore, but starting to have these types allows. I think a lot of flexibility going forward in other districts and other considerations for here. What I think it does is say you can have more than a duplex on these large lots.

B

But it's not going to be this um 16 unit box, because you did say that you liked that sort of there's a condo development of townhouses, and you guys liked that so, but if you just right now, that is a multi-family, and if you allow that you would also have to allow the 16 unit box.

E

One of the things about the whole sewer on the bay was people were concerned about things like this and how many structures are going to pop up all of a sudden and because now there's sewage available to these folks.

E

B

This wouldn't change the density. To be clear. Your lot, if you have a 10 acre lot and it's roughly three units per acre in in the um on the non-lake side there and what would be ls4. So you get a 10 acre lot. That's 30 units, it's 30 units is 30. Units is 30 units you're deciding whether those 30 units have to all be single families, whether those 30 units could be um three rows of 10, whether those 30 units are 15 duplexes, but it's still only 30.. At the end of the day, it's 30.

B

that's an extreme example just so nobody gets worried about all these 30 units popping up. I don't think, there's a lot of properties, but there are some that are bigger than you think um could.

F

It be, I mean, could it be multiple like three and six, and so it could be.

B

You know, eventually, you might want to mandate something like that or not, but it could it's whatever, as drafted here, it's whatever somebody proposes.

B

But it couldn't be something that's not on this list, so it couldn't be. This multi multiplex, medium 5 to 12 units, for example, would not be allowed here.

B

Does that make sense.

A

um So what we're looking at so we're clear for supplement, 44.

B

For supplement 44.

A

We will have to approve this to put into supplement 44 to put into ls4 right.

B

Yeah, so it's all it's all going to go. It's not going to look like this formatting we're.

A

Going to have to make sure that's part of the deal.

B

D

B

Don't if you choose not to pursue this you'll have to decide multi-family or not yeah in ls4 right, if you choose not, it means you don't get those town homes that exist, that the the ones that you you have showed favor for. If you choose yes, it means you who knows what you get yeah.

G

B

Where multi-family is allowed.

A

Yeah and we don't.

G

Want the big box.

D

G

We're all shaken.

A

G

This is the way to kind of control that, but.

A

G

Allow multi-family.

G

So this is a new table. This.

B

Is this concept is brand new? I don't know that it ends up looking like this because you have to fit it into.

B

I still have to play around with how it fits into the existing structure for table a1 and a2.

A

Yeah this will have its own 2.5, because.

B

Some of this just to be clear, does apply.

B

You know, there's no changes to other districts, so right now, other residential districts, even your low density ones, your your r10s already allow, I shouldn't say: there's no changes. That's not true. According to this sheet, um a small multiplex couldn't exist in the r10.

B

So I guess there's there's more to consider here than just that.

B

Our ted being sort of your ag zoning large large lot, 10 acres, zoning.

D

A

um I mean this definitely work, there's no doubt we. This will definitely get us.

B

So what I'm hoping you'll weigh in on is is less about the formatting and just the concept: the definitions, what it means, the number of units um this is sort of new, so you might want to spend a little bit more time figuring out districts.

B

I tried to match what is currently in there, so that this wasn't a huge change.

B

Other than the ls, the new ls4.

B

Where again right now, you could have multi-family of any size as long as the density permits. It.

A

So, but for us um I get the definitions part for if you don't have to change anything for all the other districts, because you'll just blank out what gets planked out, but you can leave what's already there if you want to put the multiplex large and gd3, it's just permitted just like now right, so you don't have to make any changes. Even though we do this.

B

Yeah- maybe I just don't include it at all right now, because I don't want to confuse I'm not trying to dig into the other districts.

A

Right supplement.

B

I'm trying not to as.

A

Much as possible.

B

A

My point is this: can you put it in there and yeah just make sure the other districts stay the same so.

B

I do need to work on. I guess is what I'm saying. I acknowledge that it's not perfect.

G

Yeah, but it's in a dis effect. Yes, so.

B

I want to make sure it's not, but I want the idea to be understood that all residential districts and I think right now, all residential districts can have a duplex.

B

All residential districts can have well actually so ls1 wouldn't allow a townhouse. So that's something to think about.

B

I don't think they could exist there anyway.

A

B

Land um and they their multi-family, is not allowed in ls3 anyway. So that's why it's not included there.

B

Or I mean ls1 ls1.

A

B

Have multi-family in all this one right now right.

A

So how do we get just so basically multiplex large and ls4? If we do anything, we have to just not permit it. We have.

D

A

Have the multi? No, we don't yeah again we're back to the.

B

A

Three versus sixty.

B

So I'm gonna work on how to fit it in to reflect what you're, trying to say. Okay, um it's not what you don't say can often mean as much as what you do say. So I'm trying to be careful about not having a blank next multiplex large, so maybe they get deleted.

B

I put them in here just to show you where it can go to show you what can come in a future supplement yeah, but I'm trying to make sure that we're really only impacting policy-wise, ls3 and ls4, but if it reflects what's already allowed in other districts, that's okay, because it you're not changing your policy. It's just how we're stating it.

G

So the way you've written it also includes.

B

My intention will be to confirm all of that.

B

I don't want to make any changes to what exists. There might be appropriate ones, but I don't think we want to tackle them right now.

B

B

Check these against.

B

Current zoning, I think what I'm hearing is. You agree that you don't want to make any changes to allowances.

B

But as far as ls 4 in particular, how do you feel about townhouses, multiplex, duplex being the right types.

A

Yeah right we're good with the just. We don't want big bucks.

F

Yeah, I'm just thinking of energy use. Just thinking I don't want a big box, but I'm just trying to think is it more energy use? You know. Is there more energy used by.

A

Different structures, if they're built properly no right.

F

No right, okay,.

G

And then you have.

F

To meet the residents right, energy yeah.

A

F

Right, so that's probably one yeah.

B

Consideration so any new construction will have to meet those codes, yeah and anything subject to act. 250 you'll have to even meet more yeah with the stretch code.

F

I agree with you: yeah yeah.

B

And what about those? um So, what really what's listed here for ls1 is that you would not you'd allow single families and duplexes. This would not allow townhouses or multiplexes on ls one. No.

I

E

D

Ls3, I'm sorry.

B

Right is that sound in line with what you would like to see? Yes, okay.

B

um No, so, basically, no more than two units in a building on ls three.

B

um You know, do I see big boxes coming? No, do I see somebody creating one floor living a triplex? Yes, absolutely so.

D

Just to be clear.

B

And on the record, you would not want that. That's right right, because I could see studio over studio over studio right.

A

B

G

I just wanted, I was the character of a people. I.

B

Just want to highlight all the implications yeah, I'm not trying to make it a leading statement. I just.

F

B

F

Design of the other doesn't increase traffic. It's 30 units, whether it's 30 units.

B

So that that probably would be a change over what's allowed today, if you had a lot large enough to fit three units, there's.

H

I

B

Them, but if you did, you could have stacked, um you could have a stack of studios or something or one bedrooms.

H

But no okay! That's what I'm hearing! Okay.

G

She's, so patient.

B

For ls3 you're.

G

B

I am hearing that there are some on east lakeshore. I don't know if they're legal or not they're,.

A

Stacked but I get calls on.

B

The lake side that there's apartment over apartment over apartment- and actually I think there is one.

D

B

I don't know anyone, I think it's a it's a there's rentals year-round rentals, though it's apartment apartment.

D

Apartments yeah there's a basement.

B

B

Yeah they're not three stories at the road there's a basement unit and then two above it.

H

B

um That's all I have for lakeshore stuff.

A

All right, all good with that all good all good all right. Moving on okay.

A

Bear with me thank you again.

B

Okay, I know the list looks really long. I promise you that many of them are very technical fixes they're, like hey, we missed a word or we some of them do our policy, so I will make sure to highlight which ones are which- um and I did reorder them to try to put them in order. So we can just go down.

B

Are we back? At the very beginning? We are up to b for b.

F

The page is set on.

A

Yeah right at the beginning, right.

B

At the beginning, so these are throughout. I did highlight this for you last time this is just a reorganization, so every single district had a paragraph for municipal plan permitted uses conditional uses relationship where it said the same thing 54 times I deleted them, put it in once at the beginning of the document.

B

Hopefully we can save five or six pages. That way.

B

That's really all that b is okay.

B

Where something was specific to that district, I did not delete it. I left it so I like uh there's a couple districts, there's additional standards for gd4. I left all those in g4.

H

Okay, look we're up to see.

B

um Updates to the process for zone change requests guys. I gotta tell you when we did this um policy in february of like how do you come back in for a request? I had no idea it existed in here, so you guys adopted a policy totally my fault that was contradictory to what's in the regulations.

B

I don't know why policy existed in the regulations. It did so I deleted all that that is in 203d. Let me show you and just referenced your document.

D

H

B

Zone change requests, so this said it was this whole thing about.

H

A written request.

B

And there's a public notice and defer, and it's contradictory to the policy that you had adopted so delete, delete.

H

I don't want to move on until you give me a thumbs up.

G

F

Where we are every time we change yeah 203d.

B

um Your page two article, two page, four thank.

F

B

Now there may be some of this that's worth pulling back, I'm not going to like delete it from all history. That's worth pulling back into your consideration of a zoning change, request policy, but.

B

It's odd to have your own policy exist in the regulatory document. I think you should just have it as a separate policy and reference. It.

A

Yeah, that's why we did it basically, when you started so so I think you're good with taking.

B

It- and this says you can only hear you're only supposed to hear a request to change your zoning within six months or something of adoption of a town plan yeah. I don't think that's what you wanted.

F

B

F

Like four zoning request, change of zoning requests on.

B

Hold, probably you had a few, you kicked to the fall yep.

A

Right we'll pick up back yeah.

B

F

That have anything to do with this.

B

No, I didn't know this existed to be honest with you at that time.

A

It feels like we separated planning commission from drm days. That's right.

B

Yeah, I think it's appropriate yeah.

D

B

This out yeah, they.

D

Were all intertwined.

A

At one time, yeah.

B

There's not necessarily bad criteria in here.

D

B

D

B

Just have it exist in its own document, good, okay,.

H

B

D, so accessory structures.

B

It is really when members of the public come in. Most people do not know what zone district they live in. Accessory structures exists in our table of our dimensional table as its own column, several columns. Actually it's been fully dependent on what zoning district you live in now. We know that even within a single zoning district, every lot can be very different.

B

And the accessory structure dimensions having tied them to a zoning district, we're creating some real inequalities um that are better tied to what your lot situation is as opposed to your zoning district, so, for example, to say that an ag- that's not a great example, but an r3 can look very different if it's a 50 acre lot than if it's a half acre lot.

B

But this would give you that 40 foot accessory structure regardless as it exists today, plus it had all of these columns, and so when members of the public came in just for a shed, they, I think we're we're expressing feeling really overwhelming, because in another district, it's easier for them to just know, can I have a shed or not and how tall so. A lot of this is consolidation of those columns in the table. In the dimensional standards table.

B

I tried to keep them to match what was in there, whether I thought they were appropriate or not. I tried to match them to what was already in there.

B

What I did include that's new.

B

I'm going to scroll down to it, I'm not on there yet.

B

B

I'll give you a page in a moment. Thank you. As soon as I get there.

E

H

F

In article two, yes.

B

So minor words along the way, I'm not going to point out. Everyone cannot cannot.

B

H

B

Height was just a movement, it's nothing new sorry um highest points of the structure shall be member average, measured from average pre-construction grade. That's not new text. It was just moved, so it shows up as new.

H

B

H

Get that cleaned up.

B

H12 uh page 12.

B

So we've added in sort of a purpose statement for accessory structures.

B

um That's something that's come up a lot like what makes you know next. Can I have an accessory structure with nothing else? No, it's not accessory at that point.

B

um What comes that question comes in a lot. um There was also a lot of clean up. You guys made changes to this part of supplement 43. That is confusing people, including all three of my zoning administrators.

B

um Because of the way it was written. I think it was meant to clean up something else. I don't know all the history. I've run this by every person in my department who will implement it. The idea is the same. The language is just a little bit different in how it's spelled out.

B

um This is about exceeding the fifty percent.

B

So that was in there, but it's just written differently, um rather than spell out in the chart 20 feet for accessory structures in most of the districts. This says: you're 20 feet in less.

B

There's a difference between a flat accessory structure and a pitched one. Those are already in those charts.

B

um What's new here that I think was intended by saying more rural districts can have a taller one. This instead says a parcel. That's larger.

H

You still have to me I'm sorry b.

B

These are the one twos and threes, so the number matches what was in the chart already. What has changed is how do you get bigger than that.

B

How do you get bigger than 25 feet for an accessory structure now, keep in mind accessory structure includes everything from sheds to detached garages.

B

These are taller in my finding than other communities, but I did not make a change to that. I wanted to stay true to what was in there.

B

In some cases, most often they're actually included in the primary structure we see more of them in than detached.

B

There are a lot that are detached.

G

B

The majority that we see are within the principal structure.

G

We have a case where the mother and father have adult children now, if they want to move into the main house and the mother and father want to stay on the property, because they want an accessory structure, they want to be separate, yep and close, but not from the same building. That's coming up.

B

We're we're seeing more for sure, I think about.

G

This accessory structure that would fall under that.

B

If they were detached yeah, but it doesn't apply just to an accessory dwelling unit because that can exist.

G

B

G

We're talking about heights, the.

B

H

B

So again, this wasn't meant to to change what was in that chart. It was meant to capture. Where do you get more than the standard, so the standard of 25 feet for most?

B

How do you get more than that? You get more than that, so you think about a shedder. You know here's an example. I I've been sharing like a pool house. I recently visited a property for an inspection.

B

It was a large lot, six acres kind of sat back from everybody else. There was nothing else around this enormous pool house. It was beautiful and it looked really appropriate on that site. It didn't stand out.

B

It was probably almost 30 feet tall that same pool house on a quarter acre lot on a single family ranch, looks enormous and has nothing to do with the district. I think it has everything to do with the law and its size.

B

So that's what I'm trying to to reflect here, which I think was the intention by going by district, by saying something like an r10, a 10 acre lot, 10 acre zoning. What we're finding, though again, is that the zoning district doesn't really match up and you can't stereotype them in the way that you think you can.

B

Somebody brought up to me the other day that marble island most of marble island, you would think, would be something similar to like an r2 and it's something like an r10 which I'm not trying to rezone here.

B

But it's not 10, acre zoning and it would have allow even on a small marble island lot that 40 foot accessory structure.

B

So I think this is just an attempt to say that it's more about your size and your distance than it is about your zoning district.

F

Don't you have to put some criteria in so you're yeah.

B

So they're still in there, so it still says you have to be three acres or more. um You can't just stick it up by the road it has to be to the side or the rear. If you're going with something extra large, um it must be 50 feet from all property lines. So, if you're going with this 40 foot accessory garage shed pool house, you can't just stick it right on your neighbor's property line, no matter how large your lot is.

F

And then, if you want to add a bedroom that would kick in the septic the wastewater permit. Okay,.

B

If it's an apartment well, actually any additional bedroom but yeah.

B

I did try to make an exception for barns and agricultural buildings, where it wouldn't matter the size of your lot. um I don't know it's probably redundant with state law, it probably doesn't need to be in there.

B

I just wanted to make it clear.

G

B

But it's one of the tallest ones: that's allowed without being on a large lot.

G

So, where is that.

B

So this is three 2.09, so it is page yeah. I had it wrong and uh well I don't know 2.09.

B

Article 2 page 13.

H

Thoughts thumbs up for now, move on.

A

I'm good good yep.

B

All good e, very, very simple: we had very inconsistent language, we said accessory apartment, we said accessory dwelling unit, we said accessory house, we said a bunch of things. State statute uses accessory dwelling unit edu. I tried to just change all those.

B

That is article 2 page 14.

B

B

So it's just all about consistency. There, no substantive changes.

D

H

You guys are good, I'm gonna.

B

G

When you do this, do you change it into the definitions as well.

B

I think yes, I think I listed definition on this one right.

B

And definitions, 12.02 yep.

B

So it was changing the definition.

E

Let me take two seconds you folks that are sitting here, we're done discussing ls, 3 and 4 right. This is all just homework for cleaning things up. If you don't want to sit through the homework part of this and just fixing definitions and stuff.

B

um So there is the addition of wastewater pyramids shall be obtained prior to a zoning. Permit that's been our practice. We were surprised to find it wasn't actually listed here. So we're just saying you have to get a wastewater permit if you want accessory dwelling in it.

B

If you want an accessory dwelling unit- and you want to add.

F

A bedroom right I mean, if it's just a pool house without any facilities,.

H

A

A

If you already have a septic, that's set up for that, that's not a that's a no-brainer right. Let's say you have a three-bedroom house for some reason you have a four-bedroom septic.

B

Yes, you still have to get the permit. It might just be that it's no problem getting them.

A

Okay, that's good.

B

A

Because the question comes up.

B

People will transfer bedrooms, they may have a four bedroom house and they're like oh we're. Gonna turn one of these into a storage space and build.

D

B

Apartment above the garage, so that comes up, you still get a permit. It's just easy and there's no cost. Okay,.

A

B

um Fences, this is new 2.10 b I'll, give you a page in a moment.

E

That'll be page 17.

B

H

um Quick, quick history on this one.

B

If you have a foot, a fence above six feet, you have to go to the drv fences if you've ever tried to buy one generally come four six: eight foot heights, a lot of people get six foot fences. I think ninety percent of our fence applications are for six foot fences.

B

I

H

B

Nice gentleman came in.

D

B

Extremely honest in his application had a six foot fence panel and the post was two inches taller because they mostly are some inches taller, and if anyone were to implement this buy the book, we would have to deny that the fence is six feet: tall, the posts, every eight feet or two inches taller.

B

I don't wanna have to not implement the regulations and I sure, as heck, don't want to implement them, so I tried to just fix it here, um so I just tried to put something in about how we're measuring I. This gentleman in particular, also said I don't want to put it at the ground. I want to raise it up an inch, so I can weed whack and it doesn't get dirty and cool. That's what most people are doing so, but then again, his fence became six foot three instead of six feet.

B

Technically, I can't put my signature on them.

B

Yes, so this is just to.

G

B

To clean up common sense, I think it's common sense I'll leave it to you to disagree with me.

G

F

um Well, specifically in ls uh one two, three four: is there any way to say the fence has to be so you can see through it. So it can't block the view of the lake.

F

I mean, that's just the thought you know, but again getting back to people I mean I just have seen communities not in vermont, but you can't see any of the water. You know you drive for miles and there's just fences.

B

Yeah, um that's something you want to explore. I would say either you'll have to give me some time or include it in your next supplement.

B

I think it would be more complicated than you think in how we write it. A lot.

G

Of people put fences up for privacy.

F

B

Not impossible to write, but it's trickier than you think, because you have to talk about where the fence is front, yard side yard, does it it's just. It would take a little bit.

F

Also, just in terms I mean we're, never.

B

Anything it wouldn't be in terms of.

F

Again, trying to preserve use for people- I don't know if it would just be in ls 3. You know lakeshore and drive that we would do that. But again just I I have seen you know miles and miles of fences where people can't see the ocean. They can't see the water. You know they've denied access kind of to the view. So it's always a balancing.

B

Act so I could save it as a discussion point for the next supplement. I would say if you were to take it up as part of this supplement remember every week and every day that you delay actually adopting this, I get the application in for the three parking spaces in the 40-foot building. I have an application right now for a 40-foot rebuild it's in.

E

B

And there will so we might have to just have good enough for now.

D

B

G

B

The fans this year so let's come.

I

B

This one I just I was it was quick. I didn't think it was a big deal. Are you guys? Okay with this one, okay, so.

H

It does give them a little space off the ground.

B

A little space for caps, okay, good see- you told you some of these are quick, um non-conforming uses. This is policy. uh Let me get to the page page.

E

B

Bob you're good, yes yep, so right now um says. If you discontinue use for six months, it's done you could put this says you might be able to extend to 12 if it's actively marketed and stuff. I think covet has changed a lot of thinking. The real estate market is wacky, especially for non-residential uses.

B

I don't pretend that this is an easy one or that I it's a no-brainer. This is policy. I don't take any offense. If you think six months is plenty.

B

um So again, if you have a use right now, that's non-conforming! I'm going to just raise the um porter's point store.

B

Is there a name? I don't know the store on porter's point road.

H

Is it non-conforming.

B

Use friends or.

G

B

It's the apple deli.

G

B

It was six months after that stops. It can't be a store. Ever again, it is a residential neighborhood residential house.

B

Six months, when you're trying to market something like that right now is very challenging. This would allow them up to 12 months, if they're, actively marketing and it's not just a blighted vacant site.

B

A

B

I appreciate that this is a policy change and I don't pretend that this is.

E

How long has that started vacant just out of curiosity? Would this apply to them.

B

So they have demonstrated use periodically.

B

It would apply to them, they are not considered.

B

They've not exceeded their six months; they are currently allowed their shop use. That's what I can tell you.

A

To keep within uh but.

B

They have, within every six months, had to do something to demonstrate its use right.

E

What does preclude somebody who is has something on the fence they're, not sure about so once a month, they rent it out to somebody as a business and have a business in for a month. You can do this month after month, after month, after month or every six month policy to continue this forever.

B

So they can already do that.

E

So then, if they can already do that, why do we have to expand it to a year? Why not they've got six months put something in there for a month? If you need to to continue, I.

B

Think it's for the people who aren't trying to skirt it who are actively trying to market something yeah.

A

If you, if you honestly, want to get rid of your thing, your property, you walk away, and it takes you a year to get rid of it. You.

D

A

E

To get attached.

B

E

I'm just asking throwing things out there, because if you leave somebody a loophole, sometimes it gets taken advantage of.

A

Yeah and I agree and that's what's going on to get through the six months, so if we go to 12 gizmos leeway without having to play games, I hope.

B

And it's perfectly okay, as the decision-making body to not be okay with this one.

F

Is confident the reason why uh six months is not enough enough time now or is it? Is that, like in any world, it would be.

B

It's partial, I think it's it's about the residential right. Now right is booming. Everything else is not, um and so it's just it's the market um from what I understand, I'm not a realtor.

B

F

12 months is more fair to a business owner.

B

I think if it's not abandoned, that's you don't want something to sit abandoned, hold on to that use forever. um Do.

D

I feel strongly.

B

About it, absolutely not it's it's something that was that's been talked about on more than one property, and it's been in draft form since even before I got here. So I wanted to include it. But if you say we just don't know or save it for later or no.

E

Can we leave.

G

What happens after 12 months and the building sits there? They can't market it as a commercial piece of property anymore.

D

G

Happens it just still sits there.

B

G

So they would check for six.

H

Months gives.

G

Them a little bit more time to market it and sell the property and get it being used again. That's basically what we're trying to do. Yes,.

B

We don't see a ton of it, I mean most stuff is conforming in use again. This is only use, not not the dimensional structure of conformity.

G

No, I'm just trying to think if it's non-performing use it doesn't sell within 12 months. It's going to sit there falling apart until someone can market it as a piece of property that can be.

B

Yeah in this example, I think it was also a concern from what I understand for west lakeshore. There are some uses that some people have said boy. This is not really kind of what we want new stuff being built to us, but we're okay with the you know, bob's repair shop. I don't know if that even exists, we don't want a new repair shop or a new gas station, but we're totally cool with the one. That's there.

B

If that were to stop, it could not be reborn.

A

Yeah and there's some old school properties that would be shamed. A little clover house is already going uh the clover house that must be already gone. Oh.

B

Was that a non-conforming? It.

A

Was that's good that must be way down now so.

F

The place that used to be a forest shop on westlake shore drive that could never be. Of course it could never be a business again or that's.

A

How that's emerging yeah, that's an ls too okay, so shoot that that property's, okay, yeah house was city. This is.

F

Just residential yeah, yeah yeah.

B

H

B

Is anything where that use is no longer allowed? Yeah.

A

G

Could be the opposite, it could be a residential commercial zone.

B

Yes, the same yeah and a few of those exist. I think.

D

G

I don't know this days and times like 12 months goes by really quickly.

A

That's right so.

G

Commercial property yeah.

B

Six months is just sometimes it's barely enough time to get a for sale, sign out.

A

Yeah, I'm okay with that.

E

I'll run with the flow I'm using it, there.

A

You go he's easy.

H

B

H

All good venomously.

B

H

B

uh H is extremely simple: 2.15 bob. Do you have the page? I.

E

Didn't get to hr, unfortunately,.

E

21, it starts on, have you done about the portable water supply.

G

B

So this is just again, I sat down with our wastewater official and we realized just how few tie-ins there are with the expectations for waste water. So this is really just trying to clean that all up straighten that up tie in what is expected for waste water into the development regulations. The problem is: if they exist only in the ordinances, only the wastewater official can require them.

B

So if it says, for example, you need a permit to get a septic tank great, you need a permit from the wastewater official to get a septic tank. You don't put it in here.

B

We can't require that you have that permit to build a new house, so this is just trying to connect those activities that take place either through drb or other permitting to some common sense, wastewater, permitting needs, and that's what is h there. It's just connecting it to.

B

Chapter eight, there was no connection to chapter eight previously chapter eight is the chapter of the code of ordinances. It talks about septic, um there's nothing here that is substantively different than is required in chapter eight, we're just linking it to these requirements.

F

So if someone a family sells their home to a family member transfers that property do they still have to go through this? Do the dizzier septic see? I would like to figure a way if that subject before it got transferred, would have to be inspected.

B

That is a state wastewater regulation that I'm not touching.

A

B

um So we follow so we have delegation here, but we follow the state wastewater rules yeah, so they determine them again. What this is is just putting what's already existing in clear language.

F

I just tried to pass legislation for that. I thought I'd give it a shot. Oh yeah, it didn't go anywhere.

B

um I update reference to building code, we called it the building and the building code. It has a new name. It's now the building code and building safety ordinance. That's page 23.

B

Nothing earth shattering, but I'm trying to be thorough and listing everything. That's been changed.

B

um Another not earth-shattering one um jay. There was a discrepancy in chapter four.

H

B

I have to scroll here.

B

Let me get to chapter four.

B

So the heading of chapter, four.

B

Heading of chapter 4 went gd1, gd2, g3 gd4, that's great! Then you get into the text. It goes, gd1 gd2 severance corners. So it's just.

B

Gd3 is the seventh corners form-based code district, so it's just just clarity. Nothing.

H

Substantive, okay.

B

um Just listing it here to be thorough, um okay, 704c, we get to really scroll, hang on.

H

I'll get you a page in a moment.

E

B

B

E

Talking about signs.

B

No water protection district.

B

G

Seven article seven page, seven.

F

Article seven yes.

H

B

This again just pulling things in line having sat down with our wastewater and stormwater experts. This is just stuff that they've been looking for for a while um says that you know so states. Stormwater rules allow for exemption of stormwater management systems within a stream buffer.

B

Now, it's clear nothing substantive.

H

Thumbs up, okay,.

B

uh Vehicle charging stations, okay,.

B

Substance that is 10.01. This is the first of three that were remanded from supplement 43.

C

When you get to it.

B

Can you blow.

C

It up because, like I can't read it that small.

B

It just grows faster when it's small.

B

Without a mouse a little awkward.

F

I think it's article 10 page four.

H

I'll fix that article.

B

10 page four: okay, substance, substance, substance, okay, so there's a few things. This one is a little bit different in terms of how it is shown here, because I wanted to show you a markup of the current regulations and a markup of your previous markup.

B

B

History, you guys know better than I do from what I understand. There was language that the planning commission included for electric vehicle charging as part of the last supplement that went to the select board. Who said why is this here? Nobody quite knew, and so selectboard says we're going to kick it out of this supplement. You guys talk about it.

B

Am I doing okay pam, you guys talk about it figure out. If you really want it there and bring it back to us so.

B

Electric vehicle charging stations- I think part of the reason that it also got kicked out, was act 250, so typical residential building standards, energy standards do not include stipulations for electric vehicle charging. However, if you are subject to act 250, you are subject to the stretch code, which has a requirement for electric vehicle charging stations.

B

So originally I said well fine act. 250 is going to take care of this for the same thresholds that was included.

B

It doesn't need to be in here and then I realized that severance corners is part of the growth center, which is exempt from act 250 review. So if you want this in there in most places.

B

It'll be governed by act, 250 standards for any property, that's subject to it, except in your growth center, which is probably the one place. If you're going to have it anywhere, probably the place you want it so back to the red line red line.

B

Your full draft is the 789 that was the draft as part of supplement 43 that you sent to the commission. What I am recommending here to bring it more in line with the stretch code and to simplify it is to still require the charging stations for residential properties of ten units or more.

B

One per four percent of spaces, the piece about having them convenient to the main entrance I removed.

B

I can tell you if somebody who drives one just to be clear: you don't want them in the most convenient spaces and most places don't want to wire them in the most convenient places because they will be parked in by other vehicles. They will not be reserved if you put them in the prime spot.

B

You'll almost always find a toyota tacoma parked in one. I have one of those too, so I'm not picking on most people, so that is a professional recommendation to remove the location element. If you do want to include them, I would not force them to be in those prime spots.

B

um They could still be there if somebody wants to put them there, but I would not force them to be there. um This I also deleted this language of only electric vehicles may occupy charging spaces.

B

That's an enforcement issue. It's a weird thing to put in a regulation: it's not a design site plan element.

E

I much prefer the way it's written now than previous.

B

D

B

H

G

Back to severance corners, then, because it's not just residential, there are also commercial buildings in there.

C

G

Buildings do not have to provide.

B

Yeah, it's a good question, so it's still, I guess you could say multi-family or mixed projects with 10 units of residential or more.

B

I think that the idea- and if you read a lot of studies, I do read a lot of these studies. I sort of keep up on these most people with you. You include multi-family, because these are the people of the hardest they're, not having garages they're, not having a private space.

B

Most vehicle charging is done overnight, especially if you have just a level two charger um or even level one. um Most people are not at businesses long enough to successfully get a charge. Again. I drive one I don't plug in at hannaford. It's not worth it to me. um I don't plug in here either um and most charging is done per the studies at at a place that you live um again. I'm not tied to this.

B

If you'd like to to bring it back up just making a recommendation that falls in line with the stretch code. The stretch code speaks only to the residential component.

H

B

Section a four multi-family developments, 10 units or more they don't include commercial.

F

There's no charging stations.

B

Not that there isn't it's just not required as part of this particular code. You're welcome to require anything you'd like I was just trying to be consistent. I'm just.

F

Curious who, in case I was when I was reading the site- and I should know this, but who pays for the electricity.

B

um I've seen different models, some places will offer free charging and some places will require you to use a system like plug, share um or uh there's a couple different systems so you're either charged or you have to pay for.

F

B

D

B

Ones are harder and harder to find most places you have to.

G

Pay one that I know about is in st parking garage. You have to pay.

D

G

B

Spot, oh city markets was free for a long time. Is it not free anymore? I don't know sorry I'll. Just put that out there city market's free.

I

C

Like commercials, because.

F

I'd like people to spend more time in stores, you know and spend money in colchester yeah. I don't know if that.

D

F

To that, but that's why I.

D

F

It around restaurants or places where people could go shopping so that they, you know they would, while they're waiting to charge they're they're, not just sitting in their car.

B

Yeah well, this mandates level two charging, which is not the slowest, but it's not quick.

B

You probably are only making up on a standard level, two charger in an hour of shopping 10 to 15 miles of charge. um I do it anyway, if I'm at city market, because it's free but and that's.

E

Not going to pay for it there somewhere, you.

H

Just don't see it, that's true.

B

I do I do pay for it somewhere, but so do you um will those chargers? The fast chargers are a different ball game um and most of those are tesla chargers, but because you can sit for 20 minutes at a you know at a rest, stop get a coffee chill out and you're good to go.

D

B

Know you've just about replenished most of what you need. Those are pretty rare and that's not what's specified here. I shouldn't say: they're rare they don't fit most electric vehicles.

F

B

In the future, let's say.

F

10 20 years in the future, would they have to be replace the tractor? So could they does anybody know if they could just be upgraded to be a fast charger? Is it something.

B

You probably would have to be replacing.

F

B

Different technology, it's a different plug.

E

I think we digress.

H

I think we died so.

F

No, I'm just trying to think about a little ahead. You know I mean so we don't have to if they could just be upgraded, it might be worth it someday.

G

You may have it in the roads when you're driving down it charges as you go. You can't see that and see that's prius.

F

Right, that's prius! That's a prius! That's right!.

B

So my goal here is to give you something back. That was more than a baby step.

A

D

A

I don't have a lot of thoughts on that myself. All right keep.

H

I

A

Myself, I'm a different thought that if you're going to build this, these big apartment buildings, the customer base, is going to drive these guys to put some chargers out there somewhere. If you.

D

Have a commercial.

A

Base tesla's going to come in and rat little piece of property and throw some down, so this is fine with me: throw them somewheres from the residentials. Let them roll all.

H

B

D

Rich anyone else.

B

Go ahead in the spirit of let's get moving, yeah, not try to pressure you, but yes keep it as.

E

Spread yeah, it's been adjusted red line squared.

A

Oh good for the select board, so we have to hear about it again. Yeah I didn't care about as much then either as I do now.

B

All right may they may change it all completely, but at least okay.

A

B

B

H

B

Common sense uh extension um m 9.04, h.

H

Oh sorry, I got out of order. There.

B

B

904H so this says.

B

I dream of a time on our regulations. You can just go to the table of contents and click on them. Working on it.

B

H

Exploration, yes, so this.

B

Says your major subdivision elements expire after a year, anybody who's ever seen a major subdivision, be built. No knows it doesn't it doesn't happen in a year.

A

No um imagine that.

H

B

Change into three years, this is to extend that 9.04 h, here's the language there. It is so change it from one year to three is my recommendation. I think it's a very common sense approach.

B

Your deck permit doesn't expire as fast as your whole subdivision. Permit doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

A

H

A

Yeah, I just think.

B

It's reasonable, I'm.

A

B

Out a 10 subdivision in under a.

A

Year, we're all good next, okay,.

E

B

Yeah, I don't it's got a mind of its own, hopefully they'll all fix themselves once I will check them. As I accept all the changes. Eventually um bicycle parking, another rematch 10.01.

H

E

I think it's page nine or the bottom of eight.

E

Bike racks shall be clearly visible to employees and visitors where practical and safe they should be located in proximity to the main entrance of the building.

H

H

G

H

B

So this one, I think, was also remanded because they're like what is the point. um So sorry, this is not a red light of a redline. There was a lot more to this um about having a plug-in space for the bike racks as well and having it.

B

There was more language. I've slimmed, that down. I think that what some of the feedback was is that having a plug-in for your bike, racks was just unreasonable. It just seemed like a lot. Why? um I don't know I wasn't there as part of them, so there's not going to be any charging for bikes, not required.

A

D

F

On that one, I think it should be required. I mean I'm just.

D

A

I have to admit on that. One which is crazy to me is the whole world has changed the e-bikes they're everywhere, and now we're going to have people to drag them up their stairs and stick them in and plug them in, but we're going to let them out their car we're going to force them for plugs and it's a little goofy, which I'm good with the rock thing. Tell you the truth. I.

I

Don't care they have.

A

To drag them up the stairs.

B

I understood, but it wasn't here yeah I get it that this was not one that suckered was willing to move forward, one that.

A

B

Something yeah um well, this is for.

G

Parking areas, not just residential.

B

Right, commercial, all parking areas, parking.

G

Areas, so it's really when you're out there in the bow. It's not.

A

B

Yeah, so I'm gonna probably hit you guys in a future. This is a very short bike parking section yeah. I have a lot of big ideas that I didn't want to hit you with here, but that I think, will be well appreciated.

B

I'd like to return to this one in a future supplement. I think.

H

There's some good.

B

Stuff being done with bike parking, I think colchester's behind on it.

A

Oh, it's moving fast.

B

It was just more than I think we could put in here yeah, but I'd like to I gets more people. I haven't practically written.

A

F

Okay, but I don't want to get you in here, does it include charging.

A

The next supplement part.

B

Of it, and also part of the talks about what bike parking is.

C

B

Big part, if you've ever tried to park your bike anywhere, is it says you have to have a rack? You ever tried to park your bike in one of those wave racks you might as well not have one.

I

B

Go places and people have them tied to lamp posts, because lampposts are better than a lot of the racks. So just parking is also problematic because we don't define what parking is and people buy the cheapest racks, especially movable racks that are there on day one and don't exist after day. Three right.

H

So there's a lot of problems.

B

With bike parking that we can fix that are cheap and easy for developers, but that.

F

G

The world of difference, one simple thing I can say, always removed it, so that could be visible, invisible using it yeah.

B

Yeah, it's amazing! If it's not in the back door, where the kitchen staff hang out on their lunch breaks yeah, we moved it.

G

Out of the shrubs and.

H

F

That, hopefully, both of your ideas on bike racks.

B

So I have a lot of things I think for now. This is still.

B

Something, but I fully acknowledge we could do more right.

A

H

Good enough for now.

B

Yep yeah, okay, to bring it back in the next uplift.

A

B

Okay, okay, I got ideas.

B

uh Commercial vehicle definitions, another one that was remanded, so these this is the third of those three 10.01 m. I think part of what happened here is that it was trying to make a fix for one particular problem and not really considering the bigger part of it.

B

I have said to talk to people who know things about commercial vehicles, so this is highlighted because I didn't think it was the right number.

B

Length I'm going to change to 16 feet and do it right now. Oops.

B

B

And a height of 10.

B

That, from what I understand is the standard size of your typical residential plumber, no no cdl, no we're not talking big bucks. We're talking! This is the guy who works at an electrical place and takes his truck home at night.

G

I usually have a raised rear end yeah. You can walk into it, but.

B

It's not parking a tractor trailer or something that requires a cdl on a residential street.

F

I just wondered if it could be impossible if it could be screened from neighboring properties. I I wouldn't I'd, be upset. If I had to look at that.

B

Like just just joe, the plumber coming home at night, like.

F

This van yeah, I mean, if possible, I'm not making it a requirement. Well.

E

If you have a limit to how high you can have a fence and the truck's ten foot tall kind of gonna defeat the purchase, then.

B

um Anyone else wanna, I.

A

Get that I get the screening thing, but honestly, I don't want him to go more effort than you have to if he could park his vehicle in his driveway or next to his house, make use of it every day. I'm I'm okay. With it. I've been. I've had been a little development for people that work there and they're just respectful. If they can they're business people, they don't want to upset their neighbors either.

A

At least the guys I was always dealt with they'll do their best and they might even build something on their own without us having to regulate.

B

I can tell you that, and I live in a pretty traditional um neighborhood, there's at least two people who work for electrical local electrical companies, two plumbers, one guy who does lawn care their vehicles, don't look much different to me than the guy with the f250. Next, on the other side, they're smaller than you think. I think this is smaller than a local home.

G

You know little rvs, yes,.

E

Right, that's true: how about trailers in it we're going to talk vehicles? Does this also step on the toes of people with trailers, or is that a different.

B

No, so this is trying to define what a commercial vehicle is. So the other problem is we talk about commercial vehicles, a lot, but we don't define them. um So that's the other part of this. So then the question come up. Well, what about the guy who delivers for domino's? Is that a commercial vehicle? What about the uber driver? Is that a commercial vehicle? So this is trying to make clear what is it isn't and very clearly saying that the domino's guy is not a commercial vehicle.

B

It doesn't matter that he uses it for commercial purpose, still a resident. It's still a passenger vehicle.

B

But if you start to have these 24-foot box trucks that you park at home every night, that starts to be a problem, so you're still allowed to have one. This was about more than one commercial vehicle.

B

Again, I wasn't here for that original discussion, but I understand that a big part of it was what is a commercial vehicle and what's the right size when we're talking about it, I thought they were only allowed to have one. Yes, they can only have one.

F

Yes, oh okay, so they could have one online.

B

No okay, but this is also what is a commercial vehicle. What is to make clear what you can and can't have.

E

So can I have a 16 foot truck in a 30 foot, trailer.

B

um It's a combination, so no.

E

Just curious because.

B

Now again, this is something that is sort of a commercial vehicle, so.

B

I don't think that I don't know that you're hitting 16 feet on a on a standard passenger truck. Are you like a.

A

Oh yeah, a regular, regular pickup truck.

B

H

A

Yeah I mean my pickup truck 16 feet. It's probably 18., but you're still taking. Basically it's a pickup, it's a cabin chassis that.

B

That's a commercial vehicle, so yeah.

H

B

We're okay yeah. This actually, I think, was really only a problem in one particular case. I don't think that it had a lot of drive outside of that request, which I understand, sort of fixed itself.

G

Because you're right, pickup trucks are kind of longer. Oh.

B

I didn't I talked to somebody who owns a lot of trucks.

A

16 foot would cover a base truck which is 16 to 18. Actually, you.

B

Think it should be.

E

How big are the egg trucks.

A

Those go a lot bigger 20. once.

G

I've seen her instructions um picture whether it's like a large size length, thicker yeah, yes,.

B

Pretend to be an expert, so I talk to other people, yeah.

A

16 will cover almost everybody.

G

Okay, feet might be a better one, because I know 18 feet as a standard parking spot. You can see these vehicles parking little spots, they're, usually just a little bit beyond it.

B

Yeah and you yeah, you don't want like that. U-Haul truck right, like this is about joe, the plumber, maria the electrician right, like being able to bring their vehicle home at night yeah and not have that cow as a commercial vehicle. Yeah.

G

A

Do you want to go to atp? It's no big deal. A couple more feet gives you the guy with them.

G

H

That's a good reference, pipe yep. Okay, we good with vehicles yep.

B

Yeah it's crossed out. I know it's hard to tell I'm gonna format these later. I don't know it's like a thank you yeah. I do see it. It is pressed out, but I'll clean it up.

H

Photovoltaic systems.

B

um This is very simple: there's nothing substantive what it's trying to do! This is 10.08.

E

H

I think page 27.

E

Yep on the bottom of it page, one second.

B

What this is just trying to do is clarify state law says if you're connected to the grid, we can't regulate you, so we had all these standards in here, but it wasn't clear what it was talking about. Actually regulating.

D

G

Was the page called.

H

B

It's also clarifying language.

B

It formerly said solar collectors for.

D

B

And with state statute and chapter four change it to photovoltaic systems.

B

This is making clear that, even if you are connected to the grid, the town has the ability to regulate roof mounted systems with respect to fire access, so just making those clarifications. We do them all the time. They're super easy, um and then this makes clear that these requirements only apply to those that are not net needed or connected.

H

Because it wasn't.

B

Clear and people were like- why do I you know you're not allowed to do this and they're right we're? Not if you don't connect, though we have all the rights in the world, I did change it. I knew it. It had 10 feet in height for a solar panel that seemed really short when you can have a shed. That's 40., I'm recommending 20 feet.

B

You'll almost never see these everybody connects.

B

But if you don't connect, you can have a 20 foot panel instead of 10. Yes, okay, wind turbines um had some weird language. Sorry.

C

So why is it you want to regulate the non-metered systems more than the metered ones? What's the what's the rationale for that.

B

It's not about wanting it's about state statute. State statute says you cannot regulate.

H

C

Why do you want to regulate non-metered systems.

B

Presumably so that you have some boundaries in place, I didn't create it. It was in there I'm just trying to make it taller. I just.

C

I don't like stuff that restricts people using renewable energy right. They.

A

Said this will give them more, this will add to it, make it easier for him.

A

Yeah yeah, we agree.

B

So the language is not new, the language was already in there. I was just trying to make it simpler.

A

H

Restricted there.

A

H

I know it's getting really.

B

A

That's okay: at some.

B

Point, maybe you remove it all together, but I'm not trying to reinvent yeah solar wheels.

H

B

What are we up to wind turbines.

G

B

H

B

This was weird, it said: setbacks can be reduced if the property owner says yes, the adjacent property owner.

B

You never want a standard in your regulations that relies on neighbor approval.

D

B

To be clear and unambiguous, so I've deleted that um we say that you have to have a fence. We don't say how high the fence is. If you have to have a four foot fence around the pool, you're already saying you have to fence around a wind turbine, let's give it a height. I put four feet: yep, okay, again, I'm not trying to make up whether it should have a fence. You already had that in there I left it yeah, okay, um nothing else there.

B

Those are pretty.

H

Straightforward.

B

uh Water and waste water- I think s and t you can just combine it's really just again clarifying the connections to state wastewater regulations. There's.

D

Nothing substantive.

H

Stage two yeah so.

B

This is the connection to chapter eight and saying that the wastewater official might say that the project is exempt from permitting pretty straightforward, uh 1105 same thing: it's. What do we need to know to issue a certificate of occupancy? Previously we didn't have language that said that you had to have any sort of wastewater system built now. This says.

B

More about what's required for a certificate of occupancy, we do an inspection right now we had almost no standards.

B

These are the same standards we're currently using you have to meet what your approval says, not groundbreaking a little bit obvious, but it was missing.

B

uh Design, certifications, you had no requirement for them before for waste water. Now you do.

B

Anything, no okay, um that wasn't on our list.

B

I think that was t 1105.

G

Oh, the number was wrong. Thank you. No, but you have something under 1105.

H

B

Okay, let's get it expiration. ah Let me add, I want to add those: oh, that should be 1104 and 05.

D

B

Idea of expirations.

B

I extend from 12 to 18 months a little bit more time for a zoning. Permit people pull a permit for a pool, they're back, ordered they can't get them constructed in 12 months. Your deck.

H

B

Sometimes longer.

B

And again, this isn't completion. This is until you've reached substantial completion. We didn't define that so now, we've included 50 percent of the budget's been committed. We had to have.

D

B

It's not perfect, but pouring a foundation is not 50 of.

D

B

But it's very difficult to find what substantial construction is.

G

So you say they feel the foundation in the slab and they walk away from it for a while, after 18 months,.

B

G

B

But if you build your foundation, your slab, you frame it you've, got.

D

Committed a lot.

B

Of your budget to it, you're good takes you longer. That's fine.

G

B

Once you reach 50, there's no extension necessary.

B

So it doesn't expire.

H

B

Same thing, under there.

B

Okay definitions, this one, I realized definition of in I realized when I was looking at the uses for.

B

Ls3 and ls4 I looked at ls1 and ls2. Our definition of an inn previously said up to 60 rooms. So everyone had this idea for a west lakeshore of a cute little inn.

B

So you look at the definition and you realize that cute little it allowed 60 rooms. I don't think I wasn't here, but I don't think the intention was for a holiday inn to exist in there.

B

So I am proposing a change in the definition from 60 rooms there with me. I'm on each.

E

B

Two did I say 20, I can't remember 20. it's a number at the wall. If you feel like that's still too much or too little.

B

I looked up the definitions in other areas. I found anywhere from 12 to 30.

G

What's the difference between an in and out.

B

Well, there wasn't much before this, um but I think that the hotel has a a number associated with it as well.

B

And facilities.

B

Maybe not, I don't know.

B

I may not have looked into that one too much because it wasn't allowed on the lakeshore anyway, whereas in is that was the only reason I caught it. This doesn't conflict with the airbnb.

F

At all, your bmb couldn't beat anywhere else.

B

No and maybe hotel could use an improvement, but at least it's not allowed in the lakeshore district.

B

E

20 is still a big number. I think.

G

Well, I think what seven's corner one of those buildings was originally supposed to be again. I don't know whether.

A

Yeah, those three big they weren't dorms at one time over there yeah.

B

I think one of them was permitted as a dorm yeah. They.

A

Ended up never built for the pharmacy.

B

G

I thought the green building was originally supposed to be an inn. It.

A

Was I was part of that deal? They built a building, but not the end. Okay,.

G

A

G

Was a dorm and now it's maybe.

D

A

No, the the end was actually, I think it was like 20., but.

G

If it was an end, it would have been that it.

A

Would have been right there.

D

A

It was a ballroom in the it was a whole thing about ballroom dancing and they were gonna fill the end. It's a thing. It's a huge thing out there yeah so.

H

B

A

Into the thing and build up this.

B

So this one came up when we were talking about the sewer line and people were fearful that west lakeshore would become lake george, and I was tasked with looking at what could actually be allowed there.

B

You know we keep telling people, don't worry, it's not going to be all the stuff, and then you look at the things that were allowed there and you saw in of 60 rooms and we're like we've been telling people it's going to be cute little stuff, and so I think this or some proposal to limit that more is more in line with the intention, so in is allowed on ls one. That is the lake side.

B

Just to be clear, I don't think the intention was ever to allow 60 units.

E

I think even 12 is a large number for an n on.

A

E

Kind of defeats, the purpose of it being an n and.

F

G

Can be pretty large.

F

On separate lots on separate ones,.

C

Yeah so separate two.

F

Rooms but separate mods in separate ownership.

A

It ends in this now we're talking about a structure in this particular area.

D

A

How do we feel about the size of, and in this particular area right, I.

D

I agree, 20 might be.

A

B

Just seemed pretty clear to me that 60 was yeah.

A

We're waiting not.

G

What people attended, I mean.

A

You want it viable, you know.

E

I mean imagine if somebody decided to buy the property where the little lakeshore pioneer breakfast place is right there and they banged 60 little units in there yeah.

E

I think even 20 kind of changes, the character of what you're shooting for there or some of the homes.

E

Yeah jake the gorgeous property.

B

I did look around at other definitions in other communities around the globe. um I didn't specifically look at, like you know like the mountain road with stowe and looked at small versus small versus larger, I'm just thinking of like what what actually exists, isn't it. I could do that, but.

D

B

Just try to cut it down from 16.

G

Well, I I don't know enough about ls one, you know what else is allowed and there's a hotel.

B

D

B

Now and I think it's a conditional use, no more than a certain number in ls2, even.

F

Do you have any idea how many hinds would, let's say, 20 rooms could be put into ls1.

B

A lot of large properties left, but there are a few like there's some rebuilds. That could happen um like the comm cove area is a five acre parcel. uh The pioneer deli parcel is three acres.

E

Where the hair stylist is right, there, I'm not sure how big that is, but that could turn.

D

B

These shots all one lot right.

E

Yeah, I don't know if it's sacrificing buildings, sucker locked, it wasn't true. Yeah.

B

I think they're all the same lot but they're they're a fair sized lot. I think you'd be looking at redevelopment, but.

B

And that's on ls1.

A

12 seems small, though 12 seems like a small building in today's world to make this.

E

A

A

sure we're negotiating on a size for somebody.

G

I'm just trying to think of what a small hotel would be yeah.

A

E

So since this is not the final, why don't we just leave it at 12? For now, we'll do some research ourselves and when we come back before we push it as a final we can say: oh 12 is not enough or yeah we're good.

G

That's not the only place we allow it right.

H

B

I'll do more research on it. I just wanted to throw it out that this is one of the first things that I changed like six months ago that I've been sitting on. um I think we're in agreement 60.

G

Prior to the sewer vote.

B

So I haven't really returned to it since then, but I could do some more.

A

Yeah without the theory nobody's worried about the 60 number, because it was never going to happen and now we're in a different world.

B

It was just it was hard to sit through the select board meetings and talk about what could happen when people were fearful and say: oh yeah, 60 units.

A

B

Oops, um okay, so I think what I can do for you. There is I'll, compare it with a hotel and I'll just try to get you some local, quick examples of what does 20 look like versus 12.. My guess is, I can go to stowe and figure it out. Real fast online still not actually drive to stone.

D

B

D

If you want to authorize a field trip, I'm totally.

B

Totally good with that too um excavation, I'm not even going to point it out if it's just to exclude work exempt under state permitting.

D

B

Doesn't count as excavation excavation is an important word because it defines what requires a permit um grammatical, organizational zoning map. Oh sorry, I guess I should have talked about that one as part of so there is a map. It basically shows exactly what you'd expect for ls3 and four it's divided by the road.

B

I made no changes to ls1 and 2., just as a reminder. Ls1 and 2 does extend onto east lakeshore as we've um when um phyllis. Yes,.

H

B

Is here she reminds us of that because she's on east lake shore, but she is in ls2 yeah, um but it it reflects that it's available here.

B

I haven't heard anything that it um does overlap with the sewer service district, which I think is important. When we talk about density.

G

B

The new sewer service district is not just the properties, it's any property with frontage on that road, so the ls4, for example, does extend back if the property has frontage.

B

So if it's a large property, it doesn't cut the property in half, which is not what happened with west lakeshore. Larger properties like the hazel property are cut.

B

Ls 2 does not extend all of like the hazel property, for example, it stops at a at a line. That's pretty consistent across property boundaries. That's not the case here. Yep.

H

A

B

And we got some timeline.

A

Yeah, you have to talk timeline.

B

um So your meetings are typically.

B

Trying to pull up some form of calendar here, first and third.

A

B

Know we got a little. Oh, we didn't get off we're on third, so your next scheduled meeting will be august, 2nd.

B

If we do two in august you're, looking at august 2nd and august 16th.

H

16Th, we don't celebrate penny from battle day here. Do we okay.

D

B

I have historically, which is why I ask so: it's not a holiday, no officially.

B

um So proceed with august, 2nd.

A

B

Do you want a copy that is clean enough to warn for a public hearing a future public hearing.

A

I would think so right we're pretty good. Yes, I think, there's a lot of little things that yeah you have to just come back.

B

I think we're pretty close.

B

um So as a matter of procedure, if you're very close, you could make those amendments, I would suggest making them live, and then you want that draft for a date certain, but it does it's going to require.

B

Require a lot of cleanup, which I think I can do, I'm on vacation a little bit.

E

So why not shoot us a an email in a week or so and say: hey we're going to be able to do it or nope. We've got to pull the reins.

D

H

Okay, that way.

E

There's no pressure on you to get it all jammed in and we'll know. What's going on, I'm.

B

Actually, not here on a second.

B

How about it yeah? Why don't we hold the second but I'll connect with rich.

F

Is there a rush, I mean, is there somehow is it? If we don't get it done? Is something held up.

E

um I think we need to get it done to slow down some redevelopment of places along lake shore and the permits.

B

That are getting asked for concern is to have something ready to warn. You need to have everything you need to have the report there's a full report that has to be written. You have to have all of the other things that are not included here. The cover sheet, the appendices.

B

um That's that's going to be a that's going to be tough.

I

B

So the alternative is to pick a date the following week or to look at august.

E

9Th and 16th and bang them out.

H

B

Now you could have a meeting on the second to finalize things I could have somebody from my staff. Come zach is great um with the idea that we worn on the 16th for a date in september. You could still.

H

Have a meeting right, but I don't think.

B

I'll be able to get you a version ready to warn okay, because the day you issue the warning you have to.

A

Yeah but we'll have yeah so we'll have a good copy so.

G

Very good copies that we can look.

A

At one last run.

G

Exactly we'll be there.

A

Right change, our hotel.

H

A

Our hotel or in yeah that's.

B

That's that works that night yeah.

H

B

H

B

So you guys are going to hold the second and the 16th.

A

And that second meeting will have only that on it. Yes,.

B

And even the second I'm going to keep very light for you, it's just going to be here are the things that are left. It's mostly.

A

A clean version yep.

B

You'll talk about the last bits of things and then it'll still give us two weeks to get a super clean version ready for.

G

B

Yeah, it's all the other stuff that takes time yeah yep.

H

B

The 16th I'll have a report that has to get submitted I'll have all of the other attachments and pages that exist in the regulations that you haven't seen. But there's no changes to okay, a lot of appendices and tables.

F

What date do you think it would be in september.

B

It depends on the newspaper cycle, so you have to have 15 days warning, but they don't always publish the day. You call them. Sometimes you need like a seven day lead time, so I don't know, but I will come prepared with that date, because when you warn it, you have to warn it for a date. Certain.

H

B

When you have meetings every two weeks and there's a 15 day warning, it might be a month, so it might be the end of september.

A

Sounds right, we're all good yeah, very good. Thank you guys. Thank you. I'm sorry. It's a lot of work.

A

E

Not quite but it's pushing it.

A

Yeah and we're not done yet that's something.

B

The next two I promise will not be long and then you'll have the public hearing, which might be very.

D

G

Yeah right this.

B

Is very good, but august will be light.

A

Yeah staff updates that uh necessary here, you're good on staff updates. I.

H

Don't have anything.

B

I might but I didn't prepare.

A

Yeah, that's fine! That's! Okay! Minutes of june. First, we need a motion I'll make a motion to approve.

E

A

Second, all in favor all right.

E

A

E

Right I'll make a motion to adjourn. Second, a favor.

A