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From YouTube: VICII: Public Safety in Burlington: Chief Jon Murad Dialogues with the Community 1/11/2023
Description
From VICII:
The Vermont Institute of Community and International Involvement opens the New Year with a presentation and discussion of Policing the City by the Acting Chief of Burlington Police Jon Murad. The presentation takes place in a hybrid in-person/Zoom format gathering at the Association of Africans Living in Vermont (AALV) 20 Allen Street in Burlington's Old North End. The Acting Chief discusses public safety in Burlington—most importantly, he talks with the community and asks for ideas of what we can all do to prevent law-breaking in the New Year.
Moderated by Sandy Baird, Citizen Journalist; and Jacob Bogre, Director of AALV
For more information: vicii.org
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Thank you for tuning into Town Meeting TV! Please subscribe to our YouTube channel and visit our website for more videos and information about how we open the doors to local government using community media. www.Ch17.TV
This video belongs to http://www.cctv.org and published with permission under Creative Commons License CCTV Center for Media & Democracy Programming is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International License.
A
A
And
now,
with
Tom
Simon
we're
going
to
be
talking
sometime
about
sports
right
anyway.
So
we
are
an
organization,
that's
devoted
to
critical
thinking
and
education,
about
public
affairs
and
I'm
happy
tonight
to
see
one
of
our
most
important
city
residents
and
officials
that
are
here
with
us
to
discuss
the
very
important
issue
of
policing
the
city
and
what
is
going
on
now
in
our
city.
A
So
our
guest
tonight
is
Chief,
John
Murat,
who
is
with
us
to
both
talk
about
what's
happening
in
our
city
and
also
to
answer
all
Community
questions
and
to
discuss
with
the
community.
What
is
going
on
in
our
city?
This
will
be
moderated
by
the
executive
director
of
this
very
fine
organization
called
The
Association
of
Africans
living
in
Vermont.
A
This
is
Jacob
pogra,
who
is
the
Ed
correct
of
aalv,
and
he
is
here
to
to
discuss
and
to
lead
the
discussion
with
the
chief
about
our
city
and,
what's
going
going
on,
I
might
say
a
little
bit
about
the
current
reason.
Why
we're
doing
this
and
I
thank
the
chief
for
coming,
and
that
is
that
this
organization
is
very
involved
with
young
people,
and
we
are
very
involved
in
trying
to
prevent
crimes,
to
educate
young
people
and
to
keep
them
out
of
trouble.
A
B
My
hope
is
to
use
this
opportunity
as
a
way
for
us
to
discuss
proactively
and
also
see
how
we
can
support
our
community
to
be
safer.
Most
importantly,
as
Cindy
said,
we
are
looking
to
find
better
ways
of
keeping
our
kids
busy,
but
finding
ways
to
keep
them
out
of
trouble,
so
they
can
become
productive
citizen.
B
No
one
alone
can
do
that
job
if
it
is
not
the
entire
community,
and
this
evening
we
are
hoping
that
we
can
get
more
information
and
also
more
advice
and
support,
so
the
chief
police
can
get
some
ideas
on
how
to
better
support
our
communities
and
also
help
their
fellow
police
officers
to
be
a
part
of
this
Vibrant
Community.
Thank
you
so
much
and
welcome
to.
C
Thank
you.
Thank
you
very
much
and
I'm
pleased
to
be
here.
My
name
is
John
Murad
I
am
the
acting
chief
of
Belize
here
in
Burlington,
and
I
really
am
happy
to
have
been
invited.
So
thank
you,
Sandy
and
thank
you
Jacob
for
agreeing
to
moderate,
so
I,
don't
know
how
you
want
to
kick
this
off
or
if
you've
got
questions
or
or
what
you
want
to
do.
A
A
little
bit
about
what's
happening
in
our
city
recently,
there
was
a
seven
days
article.
That
concerned
me
and
concerned
I,
think
all
of
our
residents
in
Burlington
and
in
this
community
in
particular,
and
we
have
here
tonight
actually
I'm,
not
certain.
He
was
the
writer
of
that,
but
we
do
have
someone
from
seven
days.
A
I
would
say,
because
if
you
look
at
crime
everywhere
in
this
city
in
this
country,
I
think
you
would
find
that
most
crime
is
done
by
perhaps
young
men
of
all
Races.
And
so
we
wanted
to
make
sure
that
the
chief
was
here
to
report
on
what's
happening.
In
the
city,
and
also
to
answer
our
questions
about
that,
so
that's
why
we
are
the
editorial
I.
Think
good
of
you
to
be
here
and
to
answer
those
questions.
Jesus.
C
Well,
it's
my
pleasure,
so
just
go
on
a
little
bit
about
that
all
right.
Well,
welcome
everybody!
Thank
you
again
for
having
me
here.
I
brought
with
me
a
report
which
is
our
preliminary
year-end
report
for
2022,
and
this
is
available
online
on
the
vast
majority
of
our
data
is
also
available.
Online
I
do
similar
reports
on
a
monthly
basis
to
the
Burlington
Police
commission.
C
C
It
I
think
that
we
have
made
an
important
turn
with
regard
to
some
of
the
violence
that
that
Sandy
mentioned
that
we
were
seeing
gunfire
incidents.
An
absolutely
horrific
total
of
five
murders
in
the
City
of
Burlington,
which
we
have
never
seen.
I
know
that
for
sure,
going
back
to
1960
data
prior
to
that
is
is
sketchier,
but
I
have
no
reason
to
believe
that
we've
ever
seen
that
in
our
city,
we've
never
come
close
to
it.
C
We
had
25.
Excuse
me
I
think
they
ended
with
one
last
one
right
after
Christmas
that
brought
us
to
26
incidents
of
gunfire.
That,
too,
is
something
that
we
certainly
have
not
seen
since
we've
been
keeping
track
in
2012
of
those
kinds
of
data
gunfire
is
not
automatically
a
shooting.
It's
certainly
not
automatically
a
murder,
but
it's
important
because
it's
drastically
different.
We
used
to
see
about
two
a
year
and
suddenly
it
exploded
in
2020,
and
then
in
2021
there
were
a
dozen
in
2020.
C
There
were
14
in
2021
and
in
2022,
as
I
said,
we
saw
26.
Incidents
of
gunfire
gunfire
by
the
way
can
be
incidents
in
which
a
person
is
struck,
a
shooting
can
be
incidents
in
which
a
person
is
struck
and
killed,
which
would
be
a
homicide,
but
also
can
be
just
an
incident
in
which
we
have
what
would
be
called
probable
cause
that
a
gun
was
discharged.
We
have
witness
statements,
we
have
recovered
ballistics
evidence,
we
have
impacts
or-
and
it
also
requires
reasonable
suspicion
that
it
was
discharged
in
a
criminal
way.
C
So,
for
example,
during
Seasons,
we
do
get
reports
of
gunfire
in
the
new
North
End
out
over
the
lake
or
in
the
interval
into
Veil
for
for
hunting
purposes.
That's
not
lawful
by
by
Burlington
statute,
but
I
do
not
count
those
as
gunfire
incidents.
A
suicide
is
not
something
that
we
would
count
as
a
gunfire
incident,
but
mishandling
a
firearm,
as
we
apparently
saw
in
in
a
bar
the
night
after
Christmas,
in
a
way
that
puts
other
people
in
danger.
That
is
even
though
no
one
was
struck.
C
So
I
think
that
we've
turned
a
corner
on
that.
I'm
hopeful
I
need
to
knock
on
wood
here,
because
it
things
can
change,
but
we
made
a
lot
of
inroads
in
2022,
thanks
to
incredible
work
by
the
men
and
women
in
the
Burlington
Police
Department's
detective
Bureau
Partners
in
the
ATF
Partners
in
other
agencies,
close
work
with
the
state's
attorney
for
Chittenden,
County
Sarah
George.
To
actually
take
strong
steps
against
the
people
we
believed
were
driving
a
lot
of
that
gun
violence.
C
All
five
of
those
murders
saw
a
resolution,
one
in
which
the
person
he
took
his
own
life
during
the
commission
of
the
crime,
so
that
there's
no
arrest
there
there,
but
we
know
the
outcome
and
the
other
four.
We
did
make
arrests
in
each
of
those.
Those
individuals
have
not
yet
been
tried,
but
each
has
been
charged.
C
We
have
certainly
made
inroads
on
a
number
of
the
the
other
kinds
of
gunfire
incidents.
I
try
to
have
the
officers
investigate
every
single
one
as
if
it
were
a
shooting
or
a
homicide,
because
oftentimes
the
difference
is
merely
a
matter
of
inches.
Frankly,
we
weren't
as
able
to
do
that
in
2022,
simply
because
of
the
volume
of
them.
Our
detective
unit
was
was
really
overburdened.
C
C
C
There
is
also
incredible
work
that
he
did
with
our
city
council
to
try
to
to
repair
some
relationships.
The
city
council
and
the
mayor
together
gave
us
an
incredibly
strong
fiscal
year.
2023
budget
that
was
approved
in
June
began
on
July
1st
of
this
past
year,
we'll
extend
through
the
second
through
the
first
half
of
the
coming
year,
also
a
strong
contract.
C
We
have
one
of
the
best
police
contracts
in
the
state
and
both
of
these
tools
are
incredibly
necessary
for
us
to
be
able
to
rebuild,
because
our
department
has
been
drastically
depleted.
It
has
been
significantly
reduced
in
ways
that
have
proven
not
to
be
commensurate
to
the
same
safety
of
our
city.
We
are
seeing
conditions
that
we've
not
seen
for
for
years.
C
We
are
seeing
upticks
in
in
a
variety
of
different
kinds
of
category,
and
a
lot
of
that
does
have
to
do
with
diminution
of
the
ability
of
the
Burlington
Police
Department
to
respond
and
serve
about
25
percent
of
calls
for
service
no
longer
get
a
direct
police
officer
response,
and
the
default
until
2020
was
that
every
single
call
got
an
in-person
response
from
a
police
officer.
Now
we
refer
about
10
of
them
to
online
reporting
and
we
refer
an
additional
16
into
what
we
call
stacking
a
call
based
on
our
priority
response
model.
C
That
too,
is
described
in
this.
It's
also
the
first
document
at
the
top
of
the
Burlington
Police
Department
website,
and
the
rationale
for
both
of
those
is
that
we've
gone
from
being
an
agency
that
was
authorized
for
105
and
hovered
in
the
high
90s
97
98
to
be
an
agency
that
currently
has
63
police
officers
in
in
addressing
that
I
created
with
mayor
a
public
safety
continuity
plan.
C
We
presented
it
in
December
of
2020,
we
got
it
approved
in
in
February
of
2021,
and
it
includes
the
the
expansion
of
an
existing
role
that
we've
always
had
in
the
department
called
the
Community
Service
Officer.
We
always
had
about
two
of
those
people.
We
now
have
authorization
for
12
and
I
currently
have
10..
C
Oh
goodness,
sorry
still
there
a
little.
No,
it's
gone,
the
other
role
that
we
created
from
Whole
cloth
that
did
not
exist
before
is
our
community
support,
liaison
or
CSL.
Those
are
in-house
social
workers.
They
are
employees
of
the
Burlington
Police
Department,
who
have
so
in
some
cases,
masters
of
social
work
but
obvious,
but
always
Social,
Work
backgrounds.
They
are
there
to
address
issues
around
houselessness
issues.
C
Around
substance
use
disorder,
issues
around
chronic
collars
for
mental
health
issues
and
I
created
I
I
asked
for
six
of
those
in
that
Public
Safety
continuity
plan
I
was
approved
for
three.
The
new
budget
gives
us
six
and
I'm
confident
that
we're
going
to
have
all
six
hired.
We
have
three
right
now.
We're
gonna
have
all
six
hired
by
the
first
quarter
of
this
calendar
year.
C
So,
basically,
in
the
next
month
or
two
so
in
in
those
pieces,
you
know
we're
doing
well
with
regard
to
building
up
the
police
department
and
putting
new
resources
in
place
getting
from
where
we
currently
are
with
police
officers.
As
I
said,
63
to
what
the
the
city
revised
its
estimate,
the
city
said
we
were
at
105,
they
dropped
us
to
74,
and
then
they
raised
it
to
87
after
a
large
report
done
by
a
consulting
company.
C
Getting
back
to
that
87,
which
is
where
we're
striving
for
right
now
is
going
to
take
time.
I
believe
that
we're
going
to
make
really
good
progress
on
it.
This
year,
we've
already
made
some
progress.
I've
brought
some
officers
back
who
had
left
who
who
found
that
they.
This
was
a
city
worth
serving
and
perhaps
the
places
that
they
went
weren't
any
weren't
different
in
the
ways
they'd
hoped
that
they
were
going
to
be
I've
brought
in
new
police
officers.
We
just
graduated
three
officers
from
the
Vermont
Police
Academy
in
December.
C
They
are
now
in
field
training
and
they're
out
there
on
the
street
right
now,
I'm
hopeful
to
have
five,
possibly
six
attending
the
next
Vermont
Police
Academy
that
begins
in
February
of
this
year,
they'll
be
on
my
book
soon
and
that
63
will
go
up
a
bit.
I
will
lose
a
couple
of
officers
who
are
currently
in
what
we
call.
You
know,
they're
on
terminal
leave,
they're,
basically
burning
through
vacation
in
anticipation
of
retirement
or
resignation
and
they're
going
to
leave
so
I
won't
be
I.
C
Won't
get
to
69
like
I
would
hope
if
I
were
able
to
bring
in
six
officers
for
the
Academy,
but
I
think
I
will
be.
You
know
at
65
or
66,
even
within
the
next
month
or
two,
and
then
it's
a
matter
of
keeping
officers
here
and
making
sure
that
they
stay
with
us
that
we're
supportive
of
them
that
we
see
them
through
an
academy
that
doesn't
necessarily
tell
them
how
things
are
going
to
be
done
up
here,
because
Burlington
does
things
differently,
I
believe
Burlington.
C
We
rewrote
our
use
of
force
policy
in
June
of
2020,
and
then
the
state
essentially
adopted
it,
because
it
was
what
the
country
was
looking
for
at
that
moment
after
the
the
horrible
horrible
murder
of
George
Floyd,
we
are
an
agency
that
is
working
hard
on
these
new
alternative
responses
that
a
lot
of
Agents
no
agency
are
size.
That
I
know
of
has
these
kinds
of
responses
and
a
lot
of
agencies
in
the
state
are
coming
to
us
to
see
how
we're
doing
it
around
both
the
csos
and
the
csls.
C
So
you
know,
rebuilding
that
is,
is
my
priority
for
this
coming
year
and
I'm
hopeful
that
that
is
going
to
help
us
address
these,
these
numbers
that
were
not
good
for
2022
and
that
we're
going
to
continue
to
be
as
transparent
as
possible
around
other
kinds
of
numbers
that
aren't
in
this
report,
but
exist
in
our
annual
report,
which
is
also
available
online.
Around
disparities
that
we
see
in
our
numbers,
disparities
and
uses
of
forest
disparities
in
arrests.
C
We
have
eliminated
disparities
in
our
vehicle,
stops
with
the
caveat
that
I
lost
my
analyst
in
August
of
this
year
and
I
know
that
that
statement
is
true
for
2021
and
I
believe
it
to
be
true
for
2022.
It
was
up
until
August,
but
I
haven't
been
able
to
run
the
numbers
in
the
last
couple
months.
Everything
that
is
in
this
report
is
run
by
me.
Everything
and-
and
you
know
there
are
better-
are
data
analysts
out
there
for
more
complex
kinds
of
data
analysis?
A
B
F
To
keep
it
to
one
now,
thanks
for
being
here
thanks
for
doing
that,
Sandy
yeah,
my
current
job,
which
is
fairly
recent
I'm
working
in
the
last
nine
months
at
Cox
with
homeless
folks.
So
seeing
a
lot
of
a
lot
of
concerns
and
issues
around
safety
for
a
lot
of
directions,
but
I
guess
what
I
would
start
with
is.
Can
you
tell
us
a
little
bit
briefly
about
the
kind
of
training
you're
doing
now
with
your
officers
for
de-escalation?
That
would
be
helpful
to
know.
C
C
That
is
what
I
hear
from
the
members
of
our
community,
who
are
either
unhoused
or
who
are
are
sleeping
rough
as
it
were
or
who
are
in
some
ways
the
most
vulnerable
members
of
our
community,
owing
just
to
the
the
way
in
which
they
are
living
on
a
daily
basis.
With
regard
to
de-escalation
and
your
question
there
so
the
program
I
mentioned
the
it's
called
icat,
which
stands
for
integrating
Communications
assessment
and
tactics.
C
C
Icat
is
a
negotiation
deceleration,
de-escalation
program
and
the
deceleration
part
is
the
most
important
slowing
things
down
the
more
you
can
slow
something
down
the
more
you
can
control
it,
and
there
are
different
ways
to
apply
that
for
a
person
who's
out
in
the
open,
a
person
who
is
armed,
a
person
who
is
in
an
enclosed
space,
a
person
who
is
in
enclosed
space
with
someone
else
that
he
or
she
can
harm.
There
are
a
lot
of
different
factors
involved,
and
the
icap
program
goes
through
a
lot
of
them.
C
We
built
a
emergency
response
vehicle
around
that
icat
platform
and
we
train
on
it.
We
now
have
a
number
of
officers
who
are
what
we
call
train
the
trainers,
they've
gone
to
train
the
trainer
programming
so
that
they
themselves
can
deliver
the
training.
In
addition
to
that,
we
have
a
large
number
of
officers
through
a
negotiation
qualified
that
builds
on
those
same
kinds
of
skill
sets
in
that
we
no
longer
call
it
hostage
negotiation.
C
We
call
it
crisis
negotiation
and
it
has
to
do
with
the
idea
of
how
you
can
work
on
somebody
and
de-escalate
them
and
and
achieve
some
kind
of
simpatica
with
them
in
order
to
be
able
to
communicate.
The
thing
is:
de-escalation
is
not
a
magic
wand;
it
is
not
a
Magic
Bullet.
It
is
not
something
that
works
every
single
time
and
I'm
certain
that,
in
your
line
of
work,
you
deal
with
that
and
not
irregularly
people
who
are
elevated
and
escalated,
and
sometimes
what
you
do
works
and
sometimes
it
doesn't
and
with
police
officers.
C
C
There
are
times
where
that
is
not
possible,
and
that
is
a
threshold
between
somebody
who
works
at
cots
or
is
a
street
Outreach
worker
and
a
police
officer,
which
is
that
there
is
the
ability
at
some
point
to
take
at
physical
action
if
necessary,
that
always
has
to
be
done
lawfully.
It
always
has
to
be
done
within
policy
and
training.
It
always
has
to
be
done
compassionately
and
carefully,
but
it
does
happen.
There
is
no
magic
way
of
avoiding
every
single
conflict.
D
Chief,
if
you
don't
want
to
answer
this
question,
don't
answer
it
I'll
ask
it
and
I'm
Steve
Goodkind
I
used
to
work
for
the
city.
How
do
you
think
not
having
a
chief,
a
fully
appointed
chief
for
three
years?
How
has
that
affected
the
ability
of
the
department
to
get
Manpower
increased
and
encourage
people
to
come
here
and
I
personally
I
think
you
should
have
been
appointed
three
years
ago.
I
don't
know
if
you're
the
best
Chief
in
the
world,
but
we
needed
a
chief
and
you're.
You
would
have
been
the
person.
D
But
how
has
that
affected
this
department
to
get
back
on
its
feet
when
you're
you're,
making
commitment,
you're
promising
and
then
people
look
at
it
and
say
well,
look!
Look
at
the
turmoil.
This
guy
hasn't
been
appointed
himself
for
three
years.
If
you
don't
want
to
answer
it
don't,
but
if
you
do
I'd
like
to
hear
it.
C
Thank
you
so,
first
of
all,
I'm,
definitely
not
the
best
Chief
in
the
world.
I
I
make
mistakes
they're
things
that
I
wish
that
I
could
do
better.
There
are
you
know,
relationships
in
the
city
that
I
think
that
we
all
could
work
better
on
and
I
think
the
fact
that
that
that
that
confirmation
process
went
the
way
it
did
in
June
January
of
2021
is
indicative
of
some
of
those
things.
C
That
said,
you
know
on
a
day-to-day
operational
basis.
My
status
doesn't
impinge
on
anything.
It
doesn't
affect
anything.
I
am
privileged
to
have
the
confidence
of
the
men
and
women
inside
the
organization
because
they
have
mine
and
they
know
it.
I
do
hold
them
accountable.
I
have
I,
have
fired
officers,
I
have
disciplined
officers
when
necessary,
but
they
trust
that
I
am
doing
so
in
a
way
that
is
fair
and
they
know
that
I
care
about
them
I'm
also
privileged
and
honored,
to
have
the
confidence
of
the
mayor.
C
So
on
a
day-to-day
basis,
this
doesn't
make
a
difference.
What
you're
asking
is
the
one
place
where
I've
I've
sensed
a
little
bit
of
validity
to
the
concern,
which
is
this
as
we
seek
to
rebuild
I,
have
a
Target
of
basically
bringing
a
board
at
least
six
police
officers
in
every
recruit
class
once
in
February,
once
in
August,
once
in
February
once
in
August
and
I've
got
to
do
that
for
several
years,
it's
equivalent
to
basically
these
are.
These
are
some
of
the
best
numbers.
C
C
There's
something
to
be
said
for
a
Savvy,
lateral
officer,
someone
that
is
who
is
already
a
police
officer
in
another
state,
is
accredited
and
is
probably
going
to
do
his
or
who
do
his
or
her
due
diligence
when
they
think
about
coming
to
Burlington,
and
they
look
and
they
say
two
and
a
half
years.
Three,
only
you
know
and
coming
in
on
three
years
either
are
either
he's
not
very
good
or
there's
something
wrong
in
the
city
and
maybe
I'm
going
to
think
about
that.
C
I've
heard
that
that
does
resonate
with
me
a
little
bit
but
other
than
other
than
I
privileged
to
have
the
confidence
of
the
men
and
women
in
the
agency
I'm
privileged
to
have
the
confidence
of
the
mayor.
I
know
that
I
have
many
of
my
neighbors
support.
There
are
things
I
want
to
do
better.
There
are
things
the
mistakes
I've
made
that
I
want
to.
C
You
know
I
can't
undo,
but
did
I
want
to
learn
from
and
and
grow
from,
and
I
am
here
every
single
day
my
parents
are
in
the
room,
they
you
know,
have
lived
in
in
Chittenden
County
for
for
52
years.
I
have
been
here
my
entire
life
and
I
haven't
been
here.
Let
me
correct
that
I
was
born
here
when
they
still
called
it.
Mary
Fletcher
my
dad
taught
at
UVM
for
35
years.
I
came
back
here.
My
mother
taught
there
for
20
something
plus
sorry.
C
C
It
has
been
exhausting
over
the
past
two
and
a
half
years,
I'm
not
going
to
deny
that
worrying
about
whether
or
not
I
was
going
to
have
to
fire
police
officers
in
the
summer
of
2020.
When
people
were
talking
about
the
first
discussions
about
diminishing
headcount,
addressing
these
issues
as
we've
as
headcounters
plummeted,
losing
friends
who've
decided
to
leave
this
agency
in
this
profession
sometimes
has
been
challenging,
seeing
the
way
in
which
crime
is
impacting
the
community
being.
C
Somebody
who
felt
for
a
while,
like
a
bit
of
a
Cassandra
as
I,
talked
about
where
gunfire
incidents
were
going
in
2020
and
2021,
and
not
really
being
listened
to
until
it
exploded
in
such
a
way
in
2022
that
even
seven
days
had
to
acknowledge
it.
That
has
been
challenging.
It
has
been
tiring,
but
I'm
here
and
I'm,
not
going
anywhere
and
I,
and
that's
irrespective
of
what
my
status
is.
I
I
want
this
job
and
I
want
to
be
able
to
serve
this
community.
C
B
G
Jacob
I'm,
curious
and
I
appreciate,
I,
think
everybody's
sharing
the
information,
and
particularly
you
Chief,
there's
a
growing
narrative
that
I'm
concerned
with
that
gun.
Violence
is
directly
correlated
to
seemingly
black
youth
being
out
of
control
in
the
City
of
Burlington
and
yeah
bless
you,
you
good
part
of
my
curiosity
in
being
here
in
part
of
this
conversation
is
finding
out
how
real
is
that?
What
is
there?
G
You
know
we're
talking
about
data
from
what's
going
on
from
last
year
into
this
year,
I've
had
different
conversations
with
different
people
around
the
city
and,
and
it
seems
like
the
violence
has
increased,
but
it's
not
predominantly
or
disproportionately
represented,
or
reflected
specifically
in
Black
communities.
I'm
trying
to
understand
this
growing
narrative
that
that
seems
to
be
kind
of
gaining
traction
and
and
what
it
is
that,
where
that's
coming
from
and
certainly
I,
think
some
of
the
conversation
that
Jacob
started
with
was
not
only
addressing
that
after
the
fact.
G
But
what
is
the
conversation
and
narrative
around
what's
being
done
before
we
get
to
that
point?
So,
whether
or
not
that's
taking
the
conversation
in
a
different
direction
or
not
I'm
curious
to
hear
from
you,
Jacob
I'm,
certainly
curious
to
hear
from
you
as
well
Chief,
but
also
important
to
say,
I
needed
help
yesterday
and
your
officer
showed
up
and
did
one
hell
of
a
job
for
me.
So
so
thank
you
for
that
as
well.
B
B
You
know
we
cannot
feel
good
if
one
member
of
the
community
is
not
better
and
as
a
community,
we
are
looking
at
ways
of
working
together
reaching
out
to
our
impacted
Community,
asking
them
what
we
did
not
do
well
what
we
can
do
better
to
help
everyone
win
themselves
out
of
violence
and
also
look
at
what
is
driving
this
violence.
Is
it
lack
of
opportunity?
Is
it
lack
of
attention?
Is
the
drug
related
or
what,
as
Community
member,
mostly
adults?
What
are
we
doing
to
better
support
the
younger
generation
I'm?
Not
that
old,
but
I?
B
Think
I
can
do
something
to
support
a
young
man
that
is
in
trouble.
I
think
we
can
do
something
as
Community
to
support
each
other,
so
we
can
identify
signs
of
weaknesses
to
better
support
each
other.
Looking
at
our
kids,
what
kind
of
education
are
we
giving
them?
What
type
of
support
are
we
giving
them
or
what
type
of
opportunity
are
we
giving
them?
So
they
don't
fall
through
the
cracks,
and
these
are
things
that
we
cannot
do
as
an
organization
alone.
B
We
should
look
at
that
as
a
community
to
come
with
productive
ideas
that
can
better
our
kids,
so
they
remain
out
of
trouble,
and
this
is
something
we
are
also
trying
to
do
in
the
coming
days.
Our
organization
is
going
to
serve
Community
need
assessment
first
through
focus
group
and
also
one-on-one
surveys
to
see
what
we
can
do
exactly
to
at
least
better
support.
C
Thank
you,
I
think
that
really
gets
at
the
prevention
aspect
that
you're
talking
about
you
know
in
the
other
piece.
I
think
that
the
solution
to
these
and
to
the
prevention
of
these
is
in
the
community,
but
the
fault
is
not,
and
and
communities
don't
commit
these
crimes,
individuals
do
people
do,
and
unfortunately
there
is
truth
to
the
the
demographic
makeup
of
those
people,
but
those
people
are
not
a
community.
They
are
a
fraction.
They
are
individuals
really
we're
talking
about.
C
You
know,
I
mean
26
gunfire
incidents
in
the
course
of
a
year.
That's
26
people
that
is
not
a
vibrant.
You
know
community
that
represents
in
our
youth,
almost
up
we're
closing
in
on
50
percent
of
our
schools
right.
That
is
not
that
number
that
is
26.
ditto,
the
actual
the
homicides
and
the
murders.
You
know
there
were
five
of
those
they
are
awful.
They
are
awful
in
each
of
them.
The
on
both
sides
of
the
equation
was
a
person
of
color.
We
are
seeing
that.
C
What
are
we
doing
about
that?
It
is
incredibly
comfortable
to
discuss
it's
incredibly
hard
to
talk
about,
but
if
we,
if
we
don't-
and
if
we
don't
work
on
on
addressing
it,
then
we
can't
let
the
community
be
the
source
of
the
solution,
even
as
I'm
saying
quite
clearly.
I
do
not
believe
that
the
community
is
at
fault,
I.
Think
that
we've
done
a
tremendous
job
over
the
years
of
addressing
many
young
people
who
might
otherwise
have
joined
the
you
know
in
some
cases,
Anonymous
26.
C
I,
don't
know
all
26
people
who
pulled
those
those
triggers
in
those
gunfire
incidents.
Some
of
them.
We
don't
have
any
real
information
on
I.
Have
you
know,
as
I
said,
I
have
homicides
in
four,
then
there
was
also
a
knife
homicide
I
have
people
struck
in
a
total
of
13,
including
those
four
homicides.
I
have
another
another
three
in
which
people
were
shooting
at
one
another,
and
we
have
proof
of
that.
C
That
gets
me
up
to
eight
16.,
another,
the
next
10,
some
of
them
we
have
a
sense
of
and
others
we
don't,
because
all
we've
got
is
evidence
that
it
occurred
and
probable
cause
that
it
occurred
in
reasonable
suspicion
that
it
was
criminal,
but
we
don't
have
suspects
and
we
don't
have
a
lot
of
solvability
factors.
I
have
no
idea
who
committed
those,
but
for
the
ones
where
we
do
have
ideas.
There
is
a
disproportionality
in
them
and
what
are
we
going
to?
How
do
we
address
that?
C
C
I
know
that
there
have
been
discussions
at
alv
here,
I've
been
in
them,
I've
been
in
the
homes
of
people
who
are
whose
children
are
on
the
cusp
of
this
and
sometimes
have
committed
some
of
this
who
are
striving
for
answers
about
what
we're
going
to
do
and
I
have
worked
with
the
boys
and
girls
club
about
it.
I've
talked
with
the
King
Street
Center
about
these
things.
All
of
us
need
to
come
together
in
order
to
really
address
it,
and
that
includes
the.
C
C
His
statement
was
this
I,
don't
know
that
I
agree
with
it
entirely,
but
I'll
repeat
it.
The
people
that
made
his
neighborhoods
bad
when
he
was
growing
up
were
not
the
victims
of
a
flawed
system.
They
were
the
flaws
in
the
system
and
they
represented
a
small
group,
not
nearly
the
whole.
He
was
trying
to
get
to
school
every
day.
C
We
want
to
get
to
some
place
where
we
can
stop
that
before
it
occurs,
and
we've
been
successful
at
it.
The
Boys
and
Girls
Club
has
aalv
has
because
for
all
the
individuals
who
we
have
rested
over
the
course
of
this
past
year
and
a
half
who
we
have
sometimes
arrested
and
seen
released,
there
are
many
many
many
more
who
don't
engage
in
this
and
I
think
that
we
under
I
think
we
give
them
less
credit
than
they
are
due.
C
A
I'd
like
to
sort
of
address
that
my
name
is
Sandy
Barrett
I'm,
an
attorney
and
I
have
the
great
privilege
of
working
here
with
aalv
and
one
of
the
strongest
things
that
I
think
could
help
to
prevent.
Even
these
individuals
from
committing
crimes
is
if
we
had
if
the
community
itself
realized
that
many
families
are
in
trouble
here
economically
and
if
families,
especially
mothers,
were
more
strongly
supported
by
our
community
I
believe
that
that
all
children
would
have
a
better
chance
to
grow
up
and
not
commit
crimes.
A
What
I
see
in
our
entire
society-
and
this
means
the
United
States-
is
the
neglect
of
mothers
and
I
have
seen
that
I
saw
that
in
the
state
house,
when
I
was
in
the
state
house
and
watched
welfare
payments
be
cut
first
thing,
largely
single
mothers,
I've
seen
in
total
neglect
of
the
mothers
in
our
society,
and
that
has
got
to
be
rectified
because
they
cannot.
Mothers
cannot
bring
up
children
and
control
large
families
unless
they
have
the
support
of
the
community
economically
and
emotionally,
and
and
financially
aalv
actually
does
a
lot
of
that.
A
They
support
the
children
of
this
community.
I
know
that
Sam
dingbah
does
not
want
to
be
particularly
recognized,
but
every
afternoon
Sam
who
works
here,
has
many
many
kids
come
here
after
school
to
hang
out
to
get
to
know
each
other
to
form
a
community
to
make
strong
bonds
between
boys
and
girls,
which
is
so
essential
to
bring
up
a
healthy
society.
And
this
this
aalv
recognizes
that
the
families
and
the
children
of
our
community
needed
need
to
be
support.
B
H
So
I've
heard
that
you've
been
talking
a
lot
with
community
members
and
I
was
wondering
if
you
could
extend
those
Community
conversations
to
about
like
what
you
all
prioritize
for
Alternatives
and
what
alternatives
you're
currently
utilizing,
and
if
just
more
of
us
could
be
brought
into
that
and
I
just
have
to
say,
because
I'm
a
prison
abolitionist
that
I
do
not
believe
that
people
are
flaws
and
I
believe
that
there
are
so
many
signs
along
the
way
that
we
failed
to
pick
up
on.
Personally.
H
I
knew
one
of
the
victims,
my
comrade
and
I
both
did
and
we
had
a
conversation
about
how
many
signs
there
were
in
his
behavior
and
how
we
were
just
adolescents
at
the
time,
and
we
could
see
that
he
was
headed
for
a
really
dark
path.
So
I
feel
like
we
just
have
as
a
community
have
to
have
more
conversations
about
what
our
obligations
are
to
each
other
too.
H
C
Do
you
want
this
question,
but
I'll?
Let
other
folks
go
ahead.
Okay,
I
just
wanted
to
say
thank
you
for
expressing
that
in
that
way,
and
and
for
having
obviously
we're
we're
at.
We
don't
entirely
agree
on
this
topic,
but
the
ability
to
actually
talk
with
one
another
in
this
way
is
something
that
is
lacking
in
a
lot
of
instances
and
and
is
really
important.
C
I.
You
know
I
think
that
that
what
you're
striving
for
is
is
Noble
and
I
think
that
it
is
something
that
that
I,
I
wish
I
did
believe
was
entirely
possible,
but
I,
don't
not
in
the
position
that
I'm
in
but
I
love
that
you're
talking
about
it
and
I
I
would
love
to
talk
with
you
more
insofar
as
involving
other
groups
and
things
I'm
happy
to
do
that.
You
know
my
my
Outreach
is
much
more
ad
hoc.
C
We
don't
have
large
scale
sort
of
meetings
and
I've
tried
to
plan
one
for
some
time
it
was
it
was
put
in
in
it
was
it
made
Impossible
by
the
pandemic
for
about
a
year
and
a
half
of
my
tenure
and
then,
since
it
has
been
challenging
as
well,
it
is
more
ad
hoc.
It
is
more
as
they
say
in
in
politics:
it's
retail
I
I
go
to
people's
homes.
B
C
C
That's
a
that's
a
good
question:
there
is
plentiful
academic
literature
on
the
the
fact
that
police
presence
does
in
fact
result
in
decreased
crime.
There
are
some
studies
that
say
the
opposite
and
in
as
in
all
things,
you
know,
there's
a
famous
Mark,
Twain
quote,
that
is,
there
are
lies
and
Damned
lies,
and
then
there
are
statistics,
and
so
studies
can
sometimes
be
manipulated
in
these
ways.
But
the
majority
of
studies
say
quite
clearly
that
police
presence
and
larger
numbers
of
police
do
in
fact
equal
gains
in
public
safety.
C
There
comes
a
point
at
which
you
ask
whether
or
not
the
gains
are
worth
what
you're
getting
and
whether
or
not
you're
getting
you
know
no
longer
a
strong
rate
of
return
that
definitely
happened
in
New
York
City
in
the
mid
2000s
prior
to
the
you
know,
so
20
is
2002
through
2009.
They
drastically
increased
enforcement
and
got
very
few
gains
in
return
and
caused
more
blowback
than
they
were
gaining
through
that
kind
of
enforcement.
That's
not
something
that
we're
looking
for
here.
I,
think.
C
What
we're
looking
for
here
is
to
rectify
a
situation
that
the
past
two
and
a
half
years
has
shown,
wasn't
necessarily
the
best
way
to
do
what
we
were
seeking
to
do
and
was
frankly
a
mistake
from
certainly
from
my
perspective,
our
staffing
situation
has
not
been
good
for
the
city
and
it
has
not
been
good
for
people's
Public
Safety.
That
said,
how
do
we
address
some
of
the
concerns?
You're
talking
about
I
am
bringing
in
an
organization
called
the
center
for
policing
Equity
to
do
training
with
our
Police
Department.
C
We
have
a
long
history
of
cultural
competency,
training
of
anti-bias
training.
This
is
training
that
deals
with
the
history
of
racism
and
including
the
ways
in
which
police
have
been
at
times
the
authors
of
that
that
problematic
history-
and
it
does
so
in
conjunction
or
excuse
me
in
in
in
compliance
with
a
requirement
from
the
racial
Justice
resolution
of
June
2020.
C
So
that's
a
component
of
something
that
we're
doing
and
I
hope
that
that
is
an
Avenue
towards
a
a
person
actually
feeling
better
when
a
police
officer
arrives,
but
also
being
able
to
at
least
have
a
sense
that
things
are
better
when
that
police
officer
arrives
and
and
for
for
both
the
officer
and
for
for
the
members
of
the
community.
That's
who
we're
here
to
serve.
C
J
No,
it's
okay!
This
is
my
first
time
being
at
anything
like
this,
so
I
am
happy
to
be
here.
My
name
is
Caitlin
I'm
also
with
free.
Her
I
volunteer
on
the
core
team,
and
my
question
is:
is
I'm
wondering
how
you're
implicating
alternative
ways
to
help
these
individuals
that
have
been
involved
in
the
crime?
I
know
that
you
probably
have
a
standardized
way
of
having
to
deal
with
the
crime?
That's
happening,
I'll,
move
forward.
C
Too
is
a
terrific
question.
The
fact
is
that
you
know
we
do
a
number
of
things
that
we
can
do.
We
preemptively
refer
the
vast
majority
of
our
misdemeanor
level
crimes,
crimes
that
are
not
eligible
for
arrest,
but
are
instead
eligible
for
citation
under
Vermont
law,
directly
to
the
alternative
Justice
to
the
the
community,
Justice
Center,
for
alternative
Justice,
and
that
means
we
don't
we
don't
send
them
to
court.
That
has
been
a
compounded
reason.
C
It
was
partly
because
the
court
shut
down
meant
that
everything
that
we
submitted
to
the
court
was
going
to
be
returned
to
us
anyway.
There
is
more
work
in
putting
something
forward
to
the
court,
and
so
it
was
an
Ease
on
the
officer's
burden,
as
we
were
really
struggling
with
with
officer
availability,
but
it's
also
because
we
I
believe
in
it
I
believe
in
the
efficacy
of
alternative
Justice.
C
For
the
vast
majority
of
participants,
there
are
those
who
will
not
allocate
there
are,
though,
and
to
allocate
means
to
admit
that
you've
done
what
you've
done,
and
that
is
a
key
component
of
alternative
Justice.
There
are
those
who
will
not
recognize
the
harm
they
have
done,
others
in
participating
in
that
process.
C
One
is
that
every
single
one
of
those
case
cases
has
to
go
to
the
state's
attorney
somehow
for
notification
at
the
very
least
so
that
it
does
not
appear
that
that
these
things
aren't
happening
from
the
level
the
the
State's
Attorney's
office
and
two
there
have
to
be
teeth
for
people
who
don't
follow
through
on
the
alternative
Justice
program.
Now,
that's
where
we
get
into
disagreement,
because
my
sense
of
teeth
is
incarceration
for
some
and
that's
clearly
not
going
to
be
where
you
guys
are,
but
there
have
to
be
consequences.
C
E
Am
the
the
author
of
operation,
Phoenix
rise
and
also
the
author
of
the
in
conjunction
with
Zariah,
the
resolution
that
was
just
mentioned
in
2020.
I
wrote
it
on
my
honeymoon
and
so
I
want
to
just
kind
of
pivot
a
little
bit
and
I.
Don't
have
any
questions,
but
I
I
I
want
to
Pivot
a
little
bit
and
just
direct
the
conversation
somewhere,
because
I
want
to
premise
where
I'm
coming
from
and
yeah
I'm.
Also,
just
to
your
point,
I
too
am
nervous
too
in
this
setting.
E
I
am
because
I'm
triggered
in
this
setting,
so
I'm
nervous
too.
Okay
and
many
black
people
are,
you
know
in
in
the
especially
in
you
know
when
you,
whenever
there's
something
official
or
if
there's
a
law
enforcement
officer
in
the
room,
or
something
like
that,
so
it's
okay
to
show
up
and
and
admit
that
it's
fine
you're
welcome
and
the
premise
that
I
would
like
to
come
at
is:
is
that
everybody
in
the
community
is
they
have
everything
that
they
need?
E
That's
what
that's
that's
one
of
the
objectives
we
sought
to
accomplish
that
money
never
made
it,
but
we
still
open
to
Richard
Kim
Center.
So
the
the
thing
about
the
Richard
Kim
Center
is.
Is
it's
precisely
designed
to
do
all
of
the
things
that
we're
talking
about
is
to
provide
that
ability
to
provide
those
programs
and
services
to
black
and
brown
folks
in
our
community
that
historically
have
been
underserved
where
the
programs
and
services
have
been
inefficient,
ineffective
or
non-existent.
E
So
today
we
came
over
we
passed
by
and
there
was
a
job
fair
going
on
in
the
Richard
Kim
Center
there
was
the
black
artist
showcase
that
was
going
on
over
last
Friday.
There
was
the
black
artist,
the
black
artist
Market
that
was
going
on.
We've
got
other
events
that
are
happening
all
the
time
there
and
it
was
originally
designed
to
provide
services
like
adult
basic
education
and
basic
computer
skills,
and
even
now,
there's
after
school
programs
there
for
black
kids
by
black
people.
E
So
that
was
the
intention
and
that's
what
it
will
continue
to
serve
and
I
think
the
what's
good
about
what
we're
doing
here
with
that
premise
is,
is
that
we
have,
and
we
continue
to
stand
open
armed
to
to
work
with
the
aalv
and
Jacob
and
tato
I'm
excited
about
some
of
the
work.
You're
doing
really
would
appreciate
it.
If
we
were
able
to
figure
out
ways
to
come
together
and
do
this
work
collectively
as
black
folks
in
our
community,
we
invite
that
our
arms
are
open
to
you.
I'll
follow
up
I.
E
Have
your
number
I?
Have
her
number
I'm
happy
to
do
that,
because
these
are
the
things,
because
again,
what
we're
trying
to
do
is
make
sure
everybody
has
everything
they
need
everybody
around
us
there's
this
thing
called
systemic
racism.
We
know
that
in
this
backdrop
of
what
it
is
that
we're
experiencing,
that
we
hit
a
perfect
storm
John,
so
this
this
anomalous
activity,
that's
happening
in
the
safest
state
in
the
United
States.
E
Currently,
there's
huge
great
resignation
to
that
also
affects
all
police
departments
by
the
way,
so
we're
talking
about
a
perfect
storm
and
we
need
to
contextualize
what
it
is
that
we're
talking
about,
and
we
need
to
be
careful
about
the
language
that
we're
using,
because
it's
incredibly
harmful
in
our
communities
and
we
need
to
look
into
our
communities
and-
and
we
need
to
turn
into
ourselves
Jacob
to
help
ourselves.
What
we
need
is
we
need
the
resources
directed
into
our
communities
to
enable
us
to
take
care
of
ourselves.
E
We
don't
need
the
police
to
do
that.
We
need
police.
Police
are
good.
We
also
need
jails
and,
by
the
way,
I'm
a
slavery.
Abolitionist
we're
the
ones
that
put
forward
PR2,
so
all
I'm
really
getting
at
here
is-
is
that
this
premise
I
reject
I
brought
a
couple
folks
with
me.
I
do
support
the
work
of
pro
of
intervention,
but
prevention
that
comes
in
our
houses
that
comes
in
our
communities,
and
that
starts
with
our
people
and
I'm
open
armed.
We
already
have
some
stuff
on
the
calendar.
E
K
K
Can
humanize
and
sensitize
our
communities
I
agree
with
what's
been
said
as
far
as
the
history
of
this
nature
being
so
steeped,
the
history,
these
countries,
nature
being
so
steeped
in
white,
supremacy
and
systemic
racism,
I
think
it's
very
important
to
understand
that
as
a
foundational
reality
I
know,
we've
had
some
conversations
in
the
past
Chief
through
Kyle
at
the
Y
and
thought
actively
with
other
officers
about
the
meaningful
value
of
sharing
our
experiences
historically
and
how
we
can
build
community
that
actually
offers
people
the
resources
they
need.
I.
K
K
When
we
see
what
the
debilitating
impact
this
culture
has
on
the
minds
of
our
young
people,
as
evidenced
by
what's
been
happening
with
the
perfect
storm,
so
I
think
I'll
just
put
that
into
the
environment,
to
encourage
Us
in
all
ways
that
we
can
to
be
there
for
each
other,
as
human
beings
for
the
black
human
beings
in
the
community
find
ways
to
work
together
to
build
with
one
another
and
I
I.
Think
that's
where
I'll
leave.
It.
K
I
I
just
wanted
to
say
that
the
history
of
policing,
jails
and
prisons
have
dismantled
black
unity
and
communities
and
family
along
the
way
that
has
stopped
us
from
having
the
ability
to
be
able
to
look
out
for
each
other
and
be
in
community
and
and
be
together
and
I.
Appreciate
you
bringing
up
the
notion
of
Public
Safety
mark,
because
how
are
we
defining
Public
Safety
and
as
governed
people
I,
don't
believe,
we've
ever
been
asked
how
we
want
to
Define
Public
Safety
and
how
we
want
to
address
harm
as
prison
abolitionists.
I
We
are
absolutely
for
holding
people
accountable,
it's
just
how?
How
do
we
hold
people
accountable
in
a
way
where
we're
building
up
communities
and
helping
helping
people
thrive
instead
of
putting
people
into
this
prison
cycle?
That
is
just
creating
lots
of
money
for
the
state
and
lots
of
harm
in
our
communities.
I
I'm,
sorry,
we
are
pushing
a
prison
moratorium
bill
which
we
are
asking
for
a
five-year
pause
on
any
jail
and
prison
Construction
in
the
state
in
order
to
create
a
reinvestment
plan
for
the
250
million
dollars
that
the
state
is
trying
to
put
into
these
four
new
prisons.
We
really
for
yes,
two
for
men
and
two
for
women,
so
we're
really
hoping
to
get
as
many
people
on
board
and
be
a
part
of
that
conversation
to
figure
out
what
we
actually
need
in
our
Vermont
communities.
I
E
E
I
think
maybe
we
should
plan
30
seconds
yeah,
so
there's
a
there's,
a
much
more
robust
plan
that
went
into
the
the
all
of
the
news
that
we
saw
about
the
reduction
in
the
police
force
and
there
was
a
robust
Community
engagement
in
that
process.
We
directed
it.
There
was
a
complete
analysis
of
the
police
department.
It
happened.
The
report
was
delivered
by
CNA,
we're
not
talking
about
that.
E
Well,
it
supported
it.
Thank
you
so
the
so.
The
thing
is:
is
that
this
this
initiative
to
address
a
tweak
in
the
alleged
public
safety
system,
we'd
like
to
call
it
the
community
health
and
wellness
apparatus,
is
what
I'd
like
to
refer
to
it
as,
but
this
tweak
in
this
system
was
not
simply
haphazard,
it
was
really
thought
through,
and
there
was
a
lot
of
other
details
that
went
into
it
just
to
be
clear.
B
Thank
you,
Mark
I,
don't
know
if
we
have
some
questions
online,
but
I
would
like
to
say
thank
you
to
all
of
you
for
taking
your
time
to
come
tonight.
This
is,
as
we
said
at
the
beginning,
this
is
just
the
beginning
of
a
conversation
as
a
community.
We
should
find
ways
of
sharing
our
ideas
to
our
law
enforcement
agencies
and
also
to
other
service
providers.
So
we
can
provide
better
support
to
everyone
in
this
state
I'm.
B
Looking
at
our
kids
I'm
looking
at
ways
of
supporting
the
kids
in
school,
so
the
schools
can
be
part
of
the
education
system,
not
just
having
kids
during
the
day
and
letting
them
go
without
inquiring
about
their
safety
at
home,
I'm.
Looking
at
ways
we
can
support
parents,
so
they
can
provide
for
their
families,
but
also
be
there
for
their
kids
attending
their
school.
Their
games
attending
the
school
meetings
learning
from
the
school.
What
they
can
do
better
to
also
support
the
kids,
but
also
you
as
a
service
provider.
B
Some
of
you
have
been
here
longer
enough.
You
know
the
city,
you
know
our
community
and
you
can
share
your
experience
with
the
younger
generation,
and
these
are
things
that
can
always
help
our
kids
win
themselves
from
violence
and
I
hope.
We
will
continue
to
share
these
ideas
with
everyone,
so
we
can
have
a
better
and
safer
Community.
Thank
you.
So
much
foreign.