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From YouTube: Wards 4&7 NPA - 4/26/2023
Description
https://linktr.ee/townmeetingtv
00:00:00 Introductions & Ground Rules
00:02:45 Community Announcements & Comments
00:06:14 Hate Free Vermont Presentation and Discussion
00:59:25 Public Safety and Oversight: A New North End Perspective
This video belongs to http://www.cctv.org and published with permission under Creative Commons License CCTV Center for Media & Democracy Programming is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International License.
A
B
J
G
N
J
C
Hi
Martha
malpas
again
I'm
here
to
let
people
know
that
once
again,
the
heinenberg
center
is
going
to
be
having
a
walk
of
Ages
this
year,
it's
on
Saturday,
May
20th
from
10
to
12..
This
is
a
really
important
fundraiser
for
the
center,
which
has
a
lot
of
activities
for
the
community
and
especially
for
senior
members
of
our
area.
It
also
is
a
provider
of
food
and,
as
you
know,
food
insecurity
is
a
major
problem
these
days.
C
C
P
I
am
organizing
the
national
eating
disorder,
Association
walk,
which
is
this
Sunday
April
30th
at
10
A.M
at
Main,
Street
Landing,
Performing,
Arts
Center.
We
have
ax
throwing
a
photo
booth.
We
have
lots
of
snacks
and
great
amazing
prizes
like
stays
at
Hotel,
Vermont
and
other
things
you
can
come
and
you
don't
have
to
walk
it's
a
very
accessible
short
walk.
So
it's
more
of
an
event
than
a
walk.
B
B
B
A
K
K
A
D
Hi,
so
thanks
again
everybody
for
for
coming
out
so
I
work
in
the
one
of
the
units
in
the
Attorney
General's
office.
That's
called
the
Civil
Rights
unit.
The
Attorney
General
is
the
chief
law
enforcement
office
of
the
state
of
Vermont.
We
worked
with
the
Vermont
State,
Police
and
Fish
and
Wildlife
and
other
agencies,
but
we
also
we
prosecute
cases
in
our
Criminal
Division.
We
protect
Vermont's,
environment
and
and
seek
environmental
justice
in
our
environmental
law
division.
We
go
after
scammers
and
unfair
business
practices
in
our
consumer
protection
divisions.
D
We
also
represent
all
all
the
different
state
agencies,
ranging
from
Transportation
DMV,
Human,
Services
and
the
like,
and
the
Civil
Rights
unit.
Our
job
really
falls
into
a
few
large
buckets,
so
I
want
to
talk
about
just
what
we
do
and
then
I'll
talk
about
these,
these
forums
that
we've
been
doing
around
the
state
and
really
want
to
hear
your
take
on
on
what
we're
doing
or
what
we're
trying
to
find
out
so
civil
rights
unit.
We
have
several
core
functions.
D
One
is
that
we
are
the
top
law
enforcement
or
enforcement
entity
for
employment
discrimination
in
the
state
of
Vermont.
So
all
employers,
with
one
or
more
employees,
they're,
subject
to
a
variety
of
laws
that
banned
all
kinds
of
discrimination,
unequal
pay,
harassment
and
so
forth
in
the
workplace,
and
we
have
the
ability
to
take
complaints
from
the
public,
do
investigations
and,
in
appropriate
cases,
take
those
cases
to
court.
D
D
D
So
if
you
you
suffer
property
damage,
some
people
feel
they
have
to
move
to
be
safe,
and
so
they
suffer
economic
harm,
as
well
as
maybe
physical
or
emotional
harm.
We
have
the
ability
to
go
and
seek
Justice
on
that
end
and
not,
and
not
whether
or
not
the
person
arrested
ends
up
being
convicted
of
a
crime.
We
can
still
pursue
that
kind
of
Justice.
We
also
work
with
an
advocate
who's.
D
You
know
highly
trained
and
and
and
dealing
with
survivors
of
all
kinds
of
violence,
all
kinds
of
harm
she
she's,
you
know,
comes
from
Burlington.
She
used
to
work
in
Burlington.
She
herself
has
a
kind
of
a
personal
stake
in
this.
She
herself
came
to
the
United
States
and
and
received
Asylum
for
persecution
from
from
her
home
country
and
connects
very
very
well
with
those
folks.
D
Nationwide
I
mean
there.
If
something
happens
in
another
state,
and
it
makes
the
news-
let's
say:
I
mean
in
recent
years
some
acts
of
anti-Semitism
in
Massachusetts.
It
sends
a
ripple
effect
throughout
the
whole
country
in
some
acts
throughout
the
whole
world
for
the
Jewish
Community,
because
they
feel
they're
part
of
that
group
being
targeted
and
people
wonder
when
it's
when
or
if
it's
going
to
be
directed
at
them.
D
So
we
train
law
enforcement
and
try
to
get
them
to
understand
and
I'm
actually
doing
refresher
training
for
every
police
officer
in
the
state
of
Vermont
this
year
on
bias,
incidents
and
hate
crimes
again
to
make
sure
that
they're
they're
getting
out
there
with
their
eyes
open
their
ears
open
their
seriously
and
learn
how
to
work
with
us
in
other
agencies.
I'll
talk
about
in
a
moment
to
respond
to
acts
of
hate,
even
if
they're
not
crimes,
there
still
may
be
harm.
That's
going
on
that.
D
D
D
We
want
them.
We
have
a
representative
here
who
can
attest
to
that.
Is
that
we're
off
we're
often
present
in
the
legislature
either
work
providing
some
technical
assistance
on
laws
that
come.
You
know
within
our
our
Authority
or
advocating
to
expand
the
laws.
Today,
I
spent
most
of
my
day
in
committee,
supporting
legislation
that
would
provide
even
stronger
protections
against
harassment
of
workers
or
customers.
D
So
since
2019-
and
we
had
a
brief
Interruption
with
the
pen-
well
brief,
yes,
wrong!
Word:
we
had
an
interruption
with
the
pandemic.
There's
a
lot
of
things
were
interrupted
and
well,
but
we
started
in
2019
just
going
to
different
parts
of
the
state
and
talking
to
them
about
what
we
do
in
in
kind
of
the
hate
crime
and
bias
incidents,
space
and
the
things
that
we
can
do
in
the
people.
D
We
work
with
and
I'm
going
to
elaborate
on
that
in
a
little
bit,
as
you
know,
as
and
maybe
through
q
a
we
can
do
a
little
bit
more
of
that,
but
just
going
around
communities
and
asking
them
like
okay.
So
what
are
we
missing?
So
people
call
us.
We
developed
the
system
I'll
talk
about
in
a
little
bit
we're
in
2019
we
developed
kind
of
a
network-
that's
headquartered
in
our
office,
among
law
enforcement
in
the
state,
so
the
State's
Attorneys
and
police.
D
If
they
get
a
call
about
some
active
bias,
even
if
it's
not
a
crime,
even
if
it
doesn't
violate
any
law.
But
someone
is
alleging
us,
you
know,
there's
something
going
on
in
the
community
that
has
a
bias
element
that
they
share,
that
information
with
us,
because
the
law
enforcement,
the
police
department,
historically
here
and
pretty
much
everywhere,
I
mean
in
the
country.
It's
changing
slowly
in
Vermont's.
Part
of
the
change
is
that
if,
if
they
can't
arrest
someone,
you
know
historically
law
enforcement,
think
okay!
D
They,
your
taxes,
pay
them
to
take
housing,
discrimination,
canes
and
find
Justice
for
people
facing.
You
know,
barriers
to
housing.
So
we
just
said
so.
We
understand
you
can't
arrest
the
person,
but
let
us
know
what's
going
on
and
we'll
we'll
contact
folks
and
see
where
you
know
where
we
can
find
them
a
remedy
or
if
it
doesn't
violate
any
law,
it
might
be
or
you
don't
want
to
take
someone
to
court.
D
Let
us
know
about
it,
because
we
have
relationships
with
folks
who
work
at
Community,
Justice
centers,
because
sometimes
an
Assistant
Attorney
General,
showing
up
in
his
dark
blue
suit
in
a
community
where
there's
a
conflict,
you
know
I'm
just
kerosene
on
the
fire
right.
You
called
the
attorney
general's
office
on
us.
You
know
that's
not
a
way
to
bring
peace
and
Community.
Sometimes
so
we
try
to
work
with
people
who
who
know
the
parties
who
live
in
the
communities,
sometimes
they're,
Community,
Justice
professionals,
sometimes
they're
Librarians,
who
know
both
parties
to
the
conflict.
D
You
know
what
they
were,
both
kids
in
the
kids
library
and
grew
up
together.
So
we
just
want
them
to
share
that
information
with
us
and
and
sometimes
it's
an
unsolved
crime.
And
so
we
may
share
the
information
with
our
counterparts
and
they're
in
Burlington.
Here
the
United
States
attorney's
office
from
the
U.S
Department
of
Justice,
who
might
also
share
it
with
the
FBI,
because
it
might
be
that
a
particular
crime
committed
in
this
town
in
this
part
of
the
state
is
unsolved.
D
So
we
share
that
information
with
our
federal
partners
and
it's
particularly
helpful
when,
when
the
crimes
involve
online
harassment,
which
can
come
from
outside
of
the
state
of
Vermont,
FBI
have
terrific
people
who
are
very
good
at
you-
know
cyber
sleuthing
these
cases
and
trying
to
figure
out
where
the
Harm's
coming
from
can't
solve
every
case.
But
you
know
if
the
complaint
originally
goes
to
a
police
department
that
has
four
officers
there.
D
Chance
that
they're
going
to
have
the
resources
or
expertise
to
know
that
you
can
even
do
anything
there.
But
if
it
comes
to
us
under
this
system,
what
could
you
call
the
bias
incident?
Reporting
System?
We
can
get
it
into
in
front
of
the
right
set
of
eyes,
and
maybe
they
can
work
on
the
case
and
if
it's
not
a
state
case,
they
might
have
agents
in
that
state
who
can
can
pursue
the
case
further,
where
Vermont
can't.
D
So
the
idea
really
is
is
just
to
let
people
know
that
we're
doing
this.
We
had
never
done
this
before
2019..
It
was
kind
of
on
an
ad
hoc
basis,
but
we
wanted
to
make
it
more
systematic,
it's
voluntary,
it's
not
required
by
state
law,
but
we,
you
know
we
are
just
developing
those
relationships
and
police
departments.
I
think
are
finding
that
it
helps
them
one.
They
solve
more
cases
and
two.
They
aren't
just
being
the
bearers
of
bad
news.
D
To
somebody
saying
sorry,
there's
nothing,
we
can
do
it's
true,
they
can't
arrest,
but
they
can
refer
it
to
us
and
we'll
try.
We
can't
resolve
every
case,
but
but
we
consider
that's
part
of
our
job,
so
these
fora
that
we
started
in
2019
was
basically
to
let
people
know
that
we're
we're
in
that
business
that
we
do
that
and
then
also
to
find
out
from
them
like
if
they
aren't
reporting
things.
Why
not?
Is
it
hard?
D
Some
people
reported
back
to
us
some
of
the
barriers
that
they
face,
and
then
we
try
to
work
on
those
inside
so
look
at
ourselves,
but
also
talk
to
law
enforcement
and
also,
frankly,
there
was
a
change
in
law
that
came
out
of
ideas
that
came
out
of
2019
forums.
Prosecutors
thought
the
standard
for
proving
a
hate
crime
was
really
high.
D
It
you
had
at
the
time
it
said
it
had
to
show
it
was
maliciously
motivated
by
by
bias
and
that's
hard
to
prove,
because
sometimes
people
do
things
for
a
bunch
of
different
reasons.
Right
we
in
the
law
of
business.
We
call
that
mixed
motives,
where
it
could
be
that
you
bumped
into
my
car
and
I'm
mad
about
that.
D
But
then
we
get
out
of
the
car,
and
you
know
if
I
have
biases
of
me
and
I
see
who
it
is
that
ducted,
my
car
now
I'm
mad
for
two
reasons
and
maybe
I'm
motivated
to
met
a
crime
either
a
threat
or
an
act
of
violence
for
two
reasons
and
prosecutors
were
saying
they
felt
a
little
boxed
in
and
so
the
light,
and
so
that
legislators,
you
know
we're
glued
in
on
that,
and
we
advocated
and
supported
a
legislation
that
came
through
the
legislature.
That
expressly
said
look
it's.
D
It
still
can
be
a
hate
crime.
If
it's,
if
bias,
is
part
of
the
motivation,
even
if
it's
not
the
main
motivation,
but
if
you
can
show
it
motivated,
you
know
that
that
criminal
act,
even
if
there
were
other
reasons
that
you
know
it's
still
it
still
Falls
within
the
law
and
that
allows
us
to
cast
a
wider
net
on
cases
where
we
can
seek
remedies
in
court
and
gave
prosecutors
a
little
a
little
bit
more
breathing
room
and
a
little
bit
more
willingness.
D
We
hope
for
them
to
take
cases
that
previously
they
thought
it's
the
standards
just
It's.
Just
tough
it
should.
It
still
is
tough
to
prove
why
people
do
stuff
prosecutors,
don't
have
to
prove
in
a
bank
robbery
case.
You
don't
have
to
prove
why
the
robber
Bank
robbed
the
bank
right.
They
just
have
to
prove
that
you
did
it
and
you
knew
what
you
were
doing,
but
your
motivation
isn't
part
of
it
with
hate
crimes.
Motivation
is
it's
kind
of
the
part
that
that
makes
it.
You
know,
that's
the
the
aggravating
part.
D
That's
what
makes
it
worse
is
that
is
that
bias
motivation.
So
it's
not
always
easy
to
prove,
but
you
know
as
a
direct
result
of
those
of
that
feedback
that
received
in
those
for
us
the
Vermont
law
changed
today.
I
get
just
as
just
as
an
aside
on
the
on
the
Civil
Rights
bill.
I
was
sitting
in
today.
There
was
a
an
amendment
that
has
to
do
with
protecting
kids
in
schools.
I,
don't
know
it's
it's
going
to
be
voted
on
tomorrow.
D
I
can't
predict
how
it's
going
to
come
out,
but
I
will
tell
you
in
the
committee
room
the
CH
my
own
assessment
of
the
that
additional
protection
of
like
that.
Getting
through
the
committee
completely
changed
today,
not
because
you
know
there
were
lawyers
talking
and
not
me,
but
other
lawyers
were
talking
about
the
law
and
so
forth.
D
But
what
really
moved
the
needle
there
were.
Three
parents
talking
about
their
kids
experience
completely
I
mean
when
you
think
about.
Does
a
community
have
a
voice
in
A
legislature,
there's
no
ques
these
parents
and
and
they
were
all
moms,
the
ones
I
saw
and
they
were
just
galvanizing
and
their
the
experiences
that
they
related
just
connected
with
everyone
and
I
I
mean
to
me.
D
You
know
all
the
big
staff
and
everything
it's
you
know
it's
not
it's
not
like
that
here
and
I
gotta
say
it
was
just
a
really
remarkable
thing.
I
could
not
not
remark
on
that
terrific
testimony
that
we
saw
today
but
anyway,
so
we
so
we're
going
around
the
state
which
we
started
it
after
the
pandemic
has
eased
back
a
little
bit
and
we
did
in
2022.
We
did
for
we
started
off
in
Rutland
and
we
went
to.
D
We
went
to
Bennington
and
we
have
one
that's
coming
up
in
in
Orange
County
in
Randolph,
May
8th,
that's
our
next
one
and
we're
gonna
keep
doing
them.
We
also
did
one
in
Saint
Albans.
That
was
our
last
one
that
we
did,
and
we
did
our
first
one
this
year
to
get
ideas
from
people
about.
What's,
what's
keeping
you
back?
If
there
are
things
to
report,
do
you
want
options
other
than
going
straight
to
law
enforcement
going
somewhere
else,
and
what
would
that?
D
What
would
that
look
like
do?
You
have?
Have
you
had
experiences
where
it
didn't
work,
and
then
people
were
some
people
felt
when
they
were
some
people
felt
comfortable
sharing
their
own
experiences.
We're
not
asking
people
to
like
March
out
their
pain
in
front
of
us.
That's
not
the
point,
but
we
certainly
are.
You
know
going
to
be
listening
to
that
and
just
trying
to
problem
solve
and
get
ideas.
D
But
you
know,
I
was
at
I.
I
was
at
just
a
meeting
in
Burlington
dealing
with
issue.
City
Hall
is
grappling
with
in
terms
of
supporting
the
trans
Community,
and
you
know
I
heard
about
these
meetings
that
you
had
I've,
never
heard
of
them
before
I.
Think
it's
great
and
we
were
asked.
If
we
were
our
office
was
interested
I'm
just
like
yeah
wear
them
one
we'll
go.
We
we
work
evenings.
Obviously
we
go
on
weekends,
so
we'll
go
out
to
events
on
Saturdays
or
Sundays.
D
It's
pretty
standard,
that's
when
people
can
come
right
because
they
they're
not
at
work.
So
that's
really
what
I'm
here
for
is
just
to
let
you
know
a
little
bit
about
what
we
do
and
kind
of
what
we
see
is
our
mission,
which
is
to
try
to
solve
more
problems
and
and
get
out
of
that
kind
of
rigidity
that
people
in
government
can
have
about.
This
is
my
Lane,
you
know
I'm
a
lawyer
and
you
know,
and
so
I
can't
go
to.
A
D
D
We
can
do
and
and
we're
trying
and
we're
learning
a
lot
about
how
much
how
many
solutions
actually
come
from
the
community
and
not
from
a
lawyer's
desk.
That's
been
the
great
lesson
in
the
last
few
years
is
how
many
more
cases
are
getting
solved
at
that
local.
You
know
non-court
track
and
so
and
we've
we've
met
some
terrific
people
who've
been
doing
this.
Their
whole
lives
that,
frankly,
we
were
just
doing
work
in
parallel
with
each
other
and
now
and
now
I
think
we're
we're
interacting
and
learning
to
work
together.
D
I'm
gonna
stop
I've
been
talking
for
a
while
yeah,
so
I'll
stop
there.
I
don't
know
if
there
are
questions
about
what
we
what
we
do
in
it
there's
more
information,
but
you
know
I'll
just
ask
let
people's
curiosity
kind
of
dictate
the
course
so
people
have
thoughts
about
the
subject
or
questions
or
suggestions
about
how
we
can
be
better
at
what
we
say.
We're
trying
to
do.
I,
I'd,
love
to
you
know,
yeah.
T
You
you
were
you
mentioned
that
there
is
a
differential
between
hate
crimes
and
not
hate
crimes
and
that
there
are
stiffer
penalties
and
would
that
be
for
felonies
only
or
would
that
be
for
both
misdemeanors
and
felonies,
because
there's
there's
kind
of
a
curious
thing,
that's
happening
now.
I've
been
re,
I
haven't
seen
this,
but
I've
been
reading
about
that.
There's
somebody's
posting
a
bunch
of
anti-trance
stickers.
Now
that's
actually
vandalism.
T
You
know
there's
some
people
could
get
in
trouble,
but
there's
other
people
posting
stickers
too,
and
so
would
would
there
conceivably
be
a
a
difference
in
how
these
people
different
people
would
be
treated?
And
then,
if
there
is,
would
anybody
have
the
right
to
complain
that
it
was
maybe
a
speech
issue
that
if
the
differential
was
only
applied
because
these
people
were
posting
stuff
that
wasn't
liked
that
people
who
read
it
didn't
like
it?
Yeah.
D
Sure
so
I
mean
that
was
I,
think
there
was
like
three
questions
in
there
and
so
I'll
try
to
get
all
of
them.
So
first
going
with
the
hate
crimes
law,
it
applies
to
all
crimes
so
and
and
on
the
criminal
side.
If
it's
a,
if
you
do
have
a
crime,
that's
going
to
Criminal
Court
it.
Basically
what
it
does
is.
It
increases
the
penalty,
so
a
misdemeanor
in
Vermont,
some
crimes
are
like
low-level.
Misdemeanors
are
punishable
by
up
to
a
year
in
prison.
D
D
D
If
it's
punished
by
two
years,
it
moves
into
the
felony
category
and
and
some
felonies
are
punishable
by
up
to
five
years.
It
can
be
bumped
up
to
10
or
more
years,
depending
on
the
seriousness
of
the
crime,
so
also
no
crimes
are
are
exempting,
and
so
that's
that's
the
first
thing.
The
second
is
whether
or
not
something
is
a
crime
like
like
the
use
of
stickers,
for
example
under
Vermont
state
law,
one
of
the
definitions
for
like
the
destruction
of
properties.
You
have
to
have
some
destruction.
D
Note,
for
example,
and
it's
easily
removable
and
there's
no
damage
to
the
sign
or
whatever
the
property
is
it
wouldn't
meet
the
definition
of
a
crime,
because
there's
no
property
damage,
other
stickers
might
cause
damage
and
then
the
state
law
identifies
like.
Well,
you
know
how
extensive
is
it
damage
to
see
how
serious
the
crime
would
be
so
it
so
it
sort
of
depends
on
not
the
content
not
what's
on
the
sticker,
but
like
how
bad
a
damage
the
sticker
is
like
spray
painting
is,
that's
surprising
right
is
that
we
know
that
causes
damage.
D
D
D
That's
a
felony
in
Vermont,
a
statement,
that's
not
directed
at
someone.
Well,
let
me
ask
another
crime:
if
you
use
speech
to
invite,
incite
someone
else
to
commit
violence,
so
you're
not
threatening
to
do
it,
but
you're
trying
to
incite
someone
else
to
commit
something,
and
it's
said
in
a
way
that
you
know
it's
intended
to
motivate
that
person,
and
it's
likely
that
you
know
they
may
act
even
if
they
don't,
but
it's
it's.
D
It
was
sad
in
a
context
where
it's
likely
to
produce
that
Revo,
that's
also
a
crime
and,
depending
on
what
the
criminal
act
is.
If
it's
you
know,
you're
inciting
someone
to
commit
a
misdemeanor.
Well
that
that's
a
misdemeanor
if
it's
inciting
them
a
committed
act
of
violence,
that
could
be
a
felony.
D
So
that
is
that's
that
there's
good
law
on
on
First
Amendment
law
on
that
type
of
speech,
how
to
identify
what
speech
crosses
a
line.
So
when
something
is
not
exaggeration
or
expression
of
emotion,
insulting
yeah
I'll
get
to
insulting
in
a
second
but
so
like
when
we're
talking
about,
but
so
there
are
fine
distinctions
in
the
law
about
what
counts
as
a
threat
or
not
that
come
from
Supreme
Court
cases.
D
But
if
you're,
if
you
are,
if
it's
speech
where
it's
just
a
racial
slur
about
a
group
of
people
or
something
that's,
you
know
expresses
big
free,
it's
not
directed
in
anyone.
It's
not!
That's!
That's
not
a
crime.
A
lot
of
that
is
constitutionally
protected,
but
not,
but
not
if
you
commit
a
crime
in
expressing
it.
So
just
because
I
can
constitutionally
say
out
loud,
you
know
any
American
that
say
out
loud
can
say.
D
It's
not
there's
not
a
legal
definition
of
hate
speech,
whereas
in
Canada
in
other
and
in
Europe
it
is
there
are
there,
are
you
know,
having
racial,
insulting,
a
race
and
in
some
countries
in
Europe
Holocaust
denial
is
a
crime?
That's
not
true
in
the
United
States,
that's
not
true
under
the
First
Amendment,
and
so
that's
something
that
when
we
work
in
the
area
of
civil
rights
or
in
law
enforcement,
part
of
our
job
is
to
follow
Constitution.
D
We
can't
do
things
in
violation
of
the
Constitution
that
makes
us
unlawful
accuracy,
and
so
we
have
to
make.
We
have
to
make
some
of
those
difficult
decisions,
but
it's
not
about
you,
know
personal
distaste
for
something
it's
a
when
we're
looking
at
hate
crime,
we're
like
does
it?
Is
it
a
crime
or
not?
And
if
so,
can
we
prove
the
motivation?
Sometimes
it's
obvious.
D
D
So
if
you
can't
put
someone
in
jail
because
they
directed
racial
slurs
at
a
community,
maybe
you
can't
lock
that
person
up,
but
that
doesn't
mean
that
you
just
go
home
and
say
well.
First,
amendment
tough,
the
government
has
a
the
government,
has
free
speech
rights.
The
government
can
and
the
government
can
go
and
do
something
to
support
those
victims.
D
You
can
maybe
you
in
because
the
First
Amendment
says
you
can't
make
the
perpetrator
pay.
That
doesn't
mean
that
they
have
to
bear
the
cost
of
the
harm,
because
we
all
benefit
from
the
First
Amendment
right.
So
our
our
perspective
is
that
the
community
that
enjoys
the
First
Amendment
protections
I
think
really
should
be
aware
of
the
fact
that,
where
the
First
Amendment
prohibits
you
from
going
after
the
bad
actor
here,
the
cost
of
you're
enjoying
the
first
amendment
is
being
born
by
the
victim
of
that
speech.
D
And
why
is
that?
We
don't
do
that
with
floods
like
we
have
FEMA
for
floods
right
the
government,
it's
not
people's
fault,
that
you
know
in
many
cases
that
they're
house
flooded,
and
yet
we,
the
government,
steps
in
to
help
people
in
catastrophes
and
and
the
government
has
similar
power,
at
least
not
not
barred
by
the
First
Amendment
to
support
victims
and
so
I
think
you're,
seeing
in
Burlington,
like
a
response
to
some
of
that
by
having
folks
in
the
community
be
more
vocal
and
and
providing
more
support.
D
That
means
a
lot
we're
just
trying
to
get
I
don't
get
that
car
out
of
the
Stitch.
Where
like.
If
it's
the
First
Amendment
says
you
can't,
you
know,
make
the
perpetrator
pay,
then
you
can't
do
anything.
That's
not
true,
and
that's
a
big
part
of
what
we're
trying
to
do
is
to
figure
out
okay.
What
can
we
do
to
support
people
if
that
door
is
closed?
To
Us
by
the
courts,
We're
not
gonna,
be
able
to
open
that
door,
but
but
we're
still
here,
and
so,
let's
we,
we
know
what
we
can't
do.
D
J
I
have
a
quick
question
and
comment.
This
is
so
encouraging
what
you
just
touched
on,
that
there
is
an
area
that
exists
between
someone
not
being
able
to
be
arrested
and
doing
nothing
that
there
is
like
some
Middle
Ground
there
and
that's
so
encouraging,
because
I
think
any
of
us
who
I
do
a
lot
of
community
advocacy
with
social
justice
stuff
and-
and
it
does
seem
that,
if
you,
if
you
hit
this
wall,
where
someone
cannot
be
charged
with
doing
harm,
then
that's
the
end
of
the
road,
so
I'm
really
encouraged
by
this.
D
I
I
think
you,
you
could
easily
just
Google
a
Vermont
attorney
general
civil
rights
unit,
also
I
see
and
I'm
I'm,
hoping
that
she'll
cooperate
I'm,
seeing
on
Zoom
Rachel
Jolly
from
Burlington
Community
Justice,
who
I
consider
an
expert
in
this
kind
of
problem.
Solving
that
we're
talking
about
and
so
I
don't
know
Rachel.
If
is
it
permitted
for
me
to
kind
of
ask
her
to
chip
in
Rachel?
Could
you
help
us
out
there.
U
Sure
yeah
the
community,
the
Burlington
Community
Justice
Center,
which
is
part.
Can
you
hear
me?
Yes,
okay,
okay,
we
are
part
of
the
community
and
economic
development
office
of
Burlington.
We're
located
in
a
different
building.
200
Church
Street
is
where
we're
at,
and
our
website
is
burlingtoncjc.org
in
terms
of
contact
information
and
having
a
sense
of
our
scale
and
scope
of
programs.
U
We
certainly
want
to
be
a
resource
for
crime
and
harm
in
Burlington
and
and
actually
we
with
some
of
our
programs,
we
serve
all
of
China
County.
So
while
we
don't
have
any
magic
bullet
answers,
because
generally
these
CR,
you
know
these
harms
are,
and
these
incidences
can
really
vary
widely
and
have
all
kinds
of
nuance.
We
do
have
a
lot
of
resources
to
play
with.
U
Who
said
you
know,
we
want
a
city
response
and
we
can
do
our
best
in
convening
different
players,
different
stakeholders
that
might
be
part
of
a
solution
and
again
sometimes
we
just
need
to
come
together
in
order
to
brainstorm,
because
sometimes
the
the
victim
or
victims
or
imp.
The
folks
who
feel
impacted,
don't
have
the
exact
answer
themselves
of
what
they
need
or
want.
They
just
know
that
something's
not
right.
They
want
more
Justice
and
together,
sometimes
through
brainstorming
and
through
amazing
efforts
by
community
members.
U
U
It
can
be
an
ongoing
issue
and
I
think
you
know
Julio
bringing
up
the
anti-trans
stickering
incident
is
a
great
example
of
that,
because,
nationally
and
locally
we're
seeing
ongoing
impacts
of
the
various
ways
that
the
lgbtq
community
is
being
attacked
and
questioned
and
threatened
with
various
laws
Etc.
So
these
are
not
necessarily
just
okay.
U
If
bias
is
a
part
of
that,
we're
going
to
be
looking
at
it
really
differently
in
terms
of
power
dynamics
that
might
be
in
a
room
between
the
various
parties
calling
in
different
people
that
we
might
not
have
on
staff,
but
that
we
feel
do
have
the
expertise
that
are
needed
for
a
given
situation.
So
I
do
just
want
to
highlight
that
if
we
don't
have
the
resources
at
hand,
we
are
committed
to
trying
to
fight,
find
them
in
at
various
levels
of
community
and
that
doesn't
have
to
be
in
the
05401
zip
code.
U
P
Is
this
the
right?
Okay,
cool,
so
I,
guess
I
this
past
summer
had
a
black
lives
matter
and
trans
trans
people
belong
signs
that
were
both
destroyed
and
I
found
in
the
in
the
woods
near
me,
and
I
did
report
that
using
the
police
department,
whatever
system
online
and
then
a
few
weeks
later,
I
got
a
notification
that
it
was
resolved.
I
never
got
any
anyone
reaching
out
to
me
or
emailing
me
or
calling
me
or
any
of
that
so
I
guess.
P
I
D
G
D
Mean
I
I
kind
of
a
point
of
advocacy
that
we're
working
on
in
our
office,
and
this
is
something
that,
because
this
program
is
voluntary,
there's
no
state
law.
We
can't
make
it
Police
Department.
Do
it
there's
no
consequences,
but
they
can't,
and
so
we
just
have
to
use
kind
of
our
our
power
at
the
pulpit
to
make
sure
people
are,
are
not
missing
these
things
and
that
that's
not
just
officers.
D
D
And
so,
as
you
know,
I
mean
anyone.
Who's
read
anything
in
the
news.
In
the
past
few
years,
I
mean
there's
more
than
one
kind
of
interest
intersection
with
you
know
terrorism,
threats
right,
I
mean
the
justice
department
is
really
focusing
on
a
lot
of
lost
ground
that
they
had
on
white
supremacist,
Terror
threats
in
the
country,
so
that
that's
that
would
be
my
guess.
I
mean
I'd
like
to
follow
up
with
you
afterwards,
but
that
that
would
be.
My
guess
is
that
I
didn't
know
because
we
get
signed.
M
Answer
and
I
I
can't
say
why
it
wasn't
responded,
but
we
do
know
in
Burlington
we
have
a
function
where
you
can
report
these
things,
particularly
like
the
stickering.
It's
called
C
click
fix,
so
we
strongly
encourage
that
we've
just
added
a
category
or
the
cities
out
of
the
category
where
it's
hate
speech
or
looks
like
hate
speech.
So
now,
when
you
do
see,
click
fix
that
should
be
a
category
and
I'm
going
to
look
to
Rachel
a
little
bit
to
ask.
M
Maybe
she
could
facilitate
now
that
we're
collecting
the
information
that
it
it
maybe
get
put
over
to
your
office
because
see
see.
Click
fix
is
a
lot
of
things
like
reporting,
potholes
and
stuff,
but
now
that
we
have
this
sort
of
hate
speech
thing
as
a
function,
maybe
we
could
do
a
better
job
of
making
sure
it
gets
funneled
through.
So
that's.
M
M
Just
just
as
a
sidebar
comment,
because
this
was
something
the
city
council
brought
up
in
a
resolution
and
the
pushback
was
well,
you
can't
record
free
speech
and
that's
not
what
or
prosecuted
or
track
it
I
guess.
The
insinuation
was
that
we
were
going
to
be
tracking
well,
we
are
going
to
track
it.
If,
if
somebody
stole
your
signs,
that's
exactly
what
we
want
to
track.
If,
if
you
have
stickers
near
you,
that's
exactly
what
we
want
to
track.
So
it's
not
against
the
person.
M
L
My
question
centers
around
the
world,
so
the
medium
and
the
organization
of
that
free
speech
is
a
is
a
social
media,
tweet
email,
whatever
all
the
others,
are
on
Facebook
expressing
hate
clearly
against
anyone,
but
a
minority
group
is
that
free
speech,
but
is
it
and
if
it
is,
it
is
in
an
organized
fashion.
It
is
not
me
telling
you
my
bias
or
my
hate
against
someone
in
a
casual
conversation.
It
is
the
use
of
a
technology
tool,
a
technology
that
is
recommended
by
state
federal
government.
D
D
D
D
There
are
people
around
the
world
and
in
the
United
States
who
use
who
who
know
how
to
develop
violent
video
games
that
reenact
acts
of
violence
against.
You
know
marginalized
communities
as
a
way
of
trying
to
bring
children
to
desensitize
them
to
get
ideas
about
genocide
and
racial
and
and
religious
hatred.
So
it's
it's
very
multifaceted
and
we
also
not
only
work
with
law
enforcement
on
on
that
and
the
federal
authorities
have
many
more
resources
than
we
do
every
night,
but
we
also
work
with
folks
who
work
in
the
private
space.
D
So
a
few
years
back,
I
went
for
a
training.
Part
of
the
training
was
to
meet
with
the
internet
specialist
at
the
Simon
wiesenthal
Center
in
Los,
Angeles,
all
States
Attorney
General's
offices
were
there,
so
it
wasn't
just
for
Vermont.
My
colleagues
in
Mississippi
and
Florida
Maine
and
New
Hampshire
were
there
so
that
they
were
teaching
us
more
about
the
dark
web
and
about
where
to
look.
D
The
Southern
Poverty
Law
Center
has
an
amazing
database
of
racist
tattoos
and
graffiti.
They
use
a
lot
of
symbolism.
A
lot
of
numerical
hints
so
that
you
look
so
it's
something
that
looks
like
a
number
or
someone.
Who's
in
a
photograph
is
displaying
numbers.
Those
numbers
refer,
maybe
to
Hitler
or
to
some
other
message
that
that
group
subscribes
to.
D
We
also
talked
with
the
we
talked
with
the
Anti-Defamation
League,
the
ADL
in
Boston,
about
incidents
to
see
whether,
where
we
have
unsolved
cases
in
particular,
do
they
have
activity
on
the
border.
You
know
the
Vermont
borders,
it's
a
lot
of
work
and
it,
and
it
requires
a
lot
of
knowledge
and
and
part
of
the
reason
that
we
got
involved
in
this
space
is
because
so
many
of
our
departments
are
just
small
they're,
just
small,
and
they
don't
have
the
they
don't.
Have
the
resources.
D
I
I
know
many
departments,
they
have
one
detective
and
it's
usually
the
chief
who
you
know,
who's
got
to
run
an
apartment,
and
so
that's
why
we
want
them
to
get
on
our
radar.
So
we
can
get
it
if
if
we
need
experts
to
get
it
to
the
experts
but
but
Twitter's,
only
the
tip
of
the
iceberg,
I
have
to
say
yeah,
okay,.
O
So
I
know
that
you
said
that
there
isn't
like
any
legal
obligation
for,
like
the
police
departments
in
the
state
that
they
have
to
report
incidences
of
bias.
Even
if
it's
not
a
crime
that
they
don't
have
to
report
it
to
you
beyond
it,
obviously
not
being
law.
Is
there
like
any
reason
it
couldn't
be
like.
D
We
would
love
to
be.
You
know
we
would
love
it
to
be
well
and
a
few
years
ago,
in
the
Vermont
Senate,
there
was
a
bill
that
was
introduced
and
the
Judiciary
Committee
that
what
it
would
mandate
reporting
of
hate
crimes.
It's
not
that's
not
even
required
in
Vermont
law,
it's
in
Most
states,
it's
not
some
states
do
require
it
and
the
committee,
you
know,
and
the
bills
started
going
forward,
and
there
were
certain
things
that
we
wanted
to
see.
Added.
D
All
we
needed
to
know
was
like
who's
in
the
building
at
what
time,
because
we
didn't
have
security
camera
footage,
so
we
just
wanted
to
work
backwards
and
there's
a
federal,
Privacy
Law
the
school
said.
Well,
we
know
who
are
in
the
buildings.
If
you
give
us
the
subpoena,
we
can
give
you
the
names.
Otherwise,
if
we
don't
have
a
subpoena
you're
we're
violating
federal
law,
so
we
couldn't
get
the
list
of
names
that
way
we
had
to
do
something
else.
So
we
just
talked
to
students,
try
to
figure
out
that
way.
D
We
did
a
you
know,
photo
lineups
using
different
social
media
sites
where
people
had
wrenched
to
figure
out
what
people
were
there,
so
we
had
to
work
a
way
around
it.
Ultimately,
the
bill
just
didn't
go
forward.
I
think
there
was
debates
about
well
who
gets
to
decide
what
gets
reported
and
who
gets
to
say
and
that
sort
of
thing
and
our
office's
view
is
like
those
aren't
unsolvable
problems,
but
you
know
I
think
for
us.
D
We
would
like
to
see
that
I
think
and
what
we
do
in
the
meantime
is
that
we
just
we
educate
and
we
talk
about
it
I.
Just
you
know:
I
just
met
with
a
police
chief.
Just
a
couple
of
days
ago,
I'm
and
I
met
with
the
chief
a
few
months
ago
in
person
for
the
first
time
he
kind
of
knows
my
name
so
I
have
a
distinctive
name
right,
at
least
around
here
I.
D
Do
it's
not
distinctive
in
my
former
home
and
and
we
started
getting
stuff
from
that
department
that
we
probably
hadn't
seen
in
a
year
right.
We
saw
like
three
in
two
weeks:
it's
not
because
new
stuff
was
happening.
It's
just
like
yeah,
okay,
the
chief
chief
gets
what
we're
doing
and
and
they're
and
they're
pushing
it
they're
pushing
it
down
to
the
people.
We
can
do
better
at
that,
but
but
yeah
it
is.
L
V
Yes,
thank
you
for
the
presentation.
It's
it's
been
very
informative
and,
as
you
know,
the
state
of
Vermont
gets
appointed
three
people
to
be
the
truth
and
Reconciliation
commissioners,
you
probably
know
right
and
they
are
charging
looking
into
discriminations
in
terms
of
disability
in
terms
of
race
and
Abernathy's,
and
I
was
just
wondering
if
the
creation
of
that
Commission
might
bring
more
work
to
your
agency
or
more
discrimination.
V
D
So
we
we
want.
What
we're
trying
to
do
is
develop
a
kind
of
a
no
wrong
door
approach
to
this,
which
is
that
all
our
different
partners
doesn't
do.
You
have
to
know
our
number?
No,
but
if
you
talk
to
the
NAACP
it's
going
to
get
to
us,
if
you
we
hope
you
know
if
it
gets
to
different
stakeholder
groups,
it's
going
to
get
to
us
and
then
we're
going
to
send
it
to
the
try
to
send
it
to
the
right
people
and
sometimes
like
with
Rachel
they're,
the
right
people
to
work
on
it.
D
Sometimes
it's
us
we're
at
cfbi,
or
maybe
it's
all
of
us
doing
our
our
part.
So
we
hope
we
hope
they
do
not
not
because
we
want
more
incidents,
but
because
we
know
we're
missing
things
and
we
want
to
have
as
many
sources
of
information
as
possible
and
I
think
I'm
hopeful
for
this
commission
that
it
will.
D
It
will
Foster
an
environment
where
more
vermonters
will
be
willing
to
come
forward
and
share
their
stories,
even
if
it's
Anonymous
it
lets
us
know,
what's
going
on,
because
it's
hard
for
all
victims
and
all
survivors
to
talk
about
their
experience.
But
we
find
what,
when
there's
a
bias
element,
it's
even
it's
even
greater
and
and
their
willingness
to
talk
to
us
also
might
be
affected
by
their
past
experience
with
us
in
government,
and
that
includes
us.
D
D
So
we're
you
know,
we
have
that
history
too.
We
acknowledge
that
and
so
people
might
have
views
about
the
system
that
includes
us
and
so
sometimes
we're
not
the
right
people
to
talk
to
so
I'm
I'm,
really
hopeful
and
I'm
very
encouraged
and
I.
Think
Friday
is
the
first
time
that
the
committee
is
appearing
before
the
legislature
to
introduce
themselves
and
talk
about
their
mandate
and
I
and
I.
Think
it's
it's.
D
A
B
D
A
A
This
was
question
seven
and
the
charter
change
was
shot
down,
but
this
is
an
opportunity
for
us
to
engage
with
our
city
councilors
about
Public
Safety,
what
it
means
toward
four
and
seven
residents
and
the
challenges
that
follow
so
they
had
asked
if
we
could
have
this
be
on
the
agenda
and
we
agreed
that
it
would
be
a
great
thing
as
they're
working
on
this
as
the
city
council.
So
I
don't
know
if
you
and
Mark.
Why
not
come
up
and
say
that
okay.
M
Well,
I'll
start
with
just
a
little
background,
at
least
from
my
perspective.
We've
really
been
talking
about
this
since
2020
and
there's
been
a
lot
of
conversation.
A
lot
of
work
done
by
a
lot
of
people
and
I
might
not
have
my
dates
all
in
my
head,
but
there
were
there's
been
sort
of
I
I
for
lack
of
a
better
word.
Some
competing
proposals.
There
were.
There
was
a
proposal
that
was
prepared
by
a
committee
of
the
city
council
that
was
presented
to
the
city
council,
I
believe
in
2021.
M
It
looked
very
similar
to
the
content
of
ballot
item.
Seven
that
was
looked
at
just
now
in
town
meeting
day.
That
particular
proposal
ended
up
getting
vetoed
by
the
mayor
and
did
not
go
forward
subsequent
to
that.
There
began
additional
work
on
okay,
let's
step
back
a
minute
and
look
at
what
we've
got.
We've
got
the
police
commission.
We've
got
certain
things
in
state
law
that
are
could
be
restrictive.
M
M
That
said,
we're
going
to
go
forward
and
look
at
what
can
we
do
for
oversight
and
what
do
we
need
to
propose
looking
primarily
at
ordinance,
looking
probably
at
some
restructuring
of
the
police
commission
and
probably
will
need
to
involve
a
more
modest
Charter
change,
because
there
are
some
restrictions
in
state
law
that
make
additional
oversight
difficult,
that
work
proceeded
down
a
path
and
the
Public
Safety
Committee
was
working
on
it
at
the
time.
City
attorney
Dan
Richardson
drafted
a
bunch
of
materials,
and
there
was
conversations
about
it.
M
M
at
this
point
in
time
myself
clearly
and
the
previous
counselors
as
well.
So
new
councils
are
committed
to
to
trying
to
resurrect
the
conversation
of
an
oversight
process
that
will
in
primarily
be
involving
ordinance
we'll
be
looking
at
relationships
with
the
the
police,
commission
and
we've
just
starting
that
work.
M
Right
now,
we've
agreed
to
put
together
a
joint
committee
of
counselors
from
the
charter
change
committee
and
the
ordinance
committee
to
start
tackling
that,
and
it's
our
goal
to
try
to
get
a
draft
of
something
that
we
can
get
consensus
on,
hopefully
by
the
end
of
June,
so
that's
kind
of
where
we're
at
procedurally
there's
a
there's.
A
lot
in
that
I
was
not
involved
in
on
that.
I
was
I've,
been
on
the
charter
change
committee,
but
was
not
on
the
charter
change
committee.
M
What
should
we
focus
on
around
police
and
Public
Safety
oversight,
and
that
this,
from
my
point
of
view,
is
really
just
I'm
here
to
take
General
feedback
and
also
sort
of
stepping
aside
and
stepping
back
very
early
in
this
process?
We
did
a
survey
I
mean
we
have
a
16-page
Memo
from
the
previous
City
attorney
on
all
the
different
models
that
are
out
there
for
police
oversight,
ranging
from
what
was
proposed
to
a
whole
variety.
M
B
L
L
What
do
you
think
will
be
the
members
take
away
from
the
town
of
May
David's
vote
decision
like
what
is
the
role
of
the
fact
that
the
proposal
that
was
on
the
ballot
Was
Defeated?
That
was
my
question
and
my
observation
was
really
and
I'm
so
not
and
I've
Heard,
Law
Enforcement,
it
just
seems
just
nationally
generically
speaking.
L
We
in
the
conversation
we
never
shared
about
the
union
negotiations.
You
know
maybe
on
the
Town
Council
you're
ready
to
go,
but
it
seems
that
this
big
blue
wall
is
police
unions
and
I,
don't
hear
a
conversation
and
I
and
I
wonder
if
it's
I
get
the
sense
that
it's
opaque
and
behind
closed
doors
anyway.
That
would
be
my
my
thought,
intellectually.
T
M
I
can't
remember
within
it
are
issues
around
discipline
and
all
of
that
kind
of
thing,
and
that
needs
to
be
looked
at.
I,
think
that
is
not
something
we're
gonna
be
tackling
right
away.
I,
think,
city,
ordinance
and
State
law
can
sometimes
supersede
that
so
we're
gonna,
we're
gonna.
Look
at
all
of
that.
I
think
it's
the
process
itself
that
we
need
to
look
at
and
the
defining
factors
around.
M
How
does
this
get
adequately
adjudicated
adequately
process
so
and
it
does
touch
on
human
resources,
and
you
know
with
any
employee
there's
due
process,
there's
appeal
rights
that
we
have
to
go
through.
It
doesn't
matter
what
department
the
the
employee
is.
You
can't
basically
just
fire
somebody,
but
we
need
to
look
at
how
that
can
be
done
and
who,
in
who
oversees
that
and
that's
the
whole
point
of
police
oversight
is.
Is
it
just
the
chief?
Is
it
just
the
police
commission?
Is
it
some
combination
of
them?
M
You
know
what
what
works
for
us
and
there
are
some
stumbling
blocks
like,
for
instance,
and
all
along.
We
proposed
that
that
it
not
just
end
with
the
chief,
but
what
does
that
next
step?
Look
like
what's
the
appeal
process,
I
think
Bridget
took
part
of
your
question,
and
this
is
my
opinion
and
my
only
my
observation
was
The.
M
Proposal
that
went
on
the
ballot
was
very
complicated
and
it
was
presented
as
a
charter
change
and,
to
be
honest,
one
of
my
reasons
for
not
supporting
it
is
it
had
way
too
much
Administration
in
detail
which
really
should
be
left
to
ordinance
so
that
you
can
have
the
flexibility.
Changing
Charter
is
legislation
that
cannot
be
changed
and,
in
my
opinion,
is
usually
bigger.
Picture
I
mean
if
the
proposal
had
said.
Let's
come
up
with
a
new
process
for
reviewing
lease
oversight
with
you
know
some
more
sentences,
I
think
that
would
have
been
fine.
M
P
P
Think
I,
don't
know
if
this
is
maybe
a
conversation
you
can
have
with
the
ago
about
how
to
assess
bias
in
the
in
the
police
department
and
how
we
can
kind
of
preempt
the
need
to
fire
people
by
making
sure
that
we're
we're
checking
that
bias
I
would
love
to
see
type
of
oversight
that
teaches
and
really
like,
includes
bias
as
part
of
the
oversight
so
like
how
do
we?
How
do
we
see
if
they
are
reporting
crimes
or
all
these
things?
Maybe
that
could
be
part
of
it?
P
Maybe
it
can
be
their
own
personal
learning
Journeys
as
well
to
like
figure
out
where
their
biases
are
and
then
even
when
you
are
determining
who's
going
to
be
overseeing
all
these
things.
If,
if
we
can
kind
of
consider
I
think
a
lot
of
people,
I
did
hear
a
lot
of
pushback
about
not
having
law
enforcement
involved
as
as
oversight,
but
I
also
feel
like.
E
But
there
are
a
lot
of
professional
oversight
boards
that
have
members
of
the
profession
as
part
of
the
oversight,
because
they
are
content
matter,
experts
as
well,
and
they
understand
The
Entity
and
the
role
of
the
people
that
are
being
overseen.
So
I
I
personally
feel
it's
important
to
have
people
from
law
enforcement
who
understand
I.
N
N
M
I'm
not
sure
that
I
can
answer
that
in
entirety
and
I
think
that's
part
of
the
work
we
need
to
do
because
I
would
agree
with
you
that
it
is
outcomes
and
it's
quite
varied.
I
mean
a
model
for
a
city
of
a
half
a
million
dollars.
Half
a
million
people
might
be
very
different
from
a
city
of
forty
five
thousand.
M
So
we
need
to
look
at
that
and
we
need
to
figure
out
sort
of
the
the
scale
and
you
know
how
many
complaints
a
year
do
we
get
now
I
going
back
to
I.
Think
one
of
your
conversations
I
mean
I.
Think
we
need
to
look
at
probably
restructuring.
Part
of
you
know
what
are
the
qualifications
for
being
on
the
police
commission,
because
we
do
have
a
civilian
oversight.
Body
I
mean
it.
It
exists
whether
it
needs
support
through
ordinance
or
the
relationship
to
the
chief
I.
M
Think
is
what
we've
got
to
yet
determine,
but
we
do
have
a
civilian
oversight
body
and,
in
my
opinion,
I
think
we
need
to
figure
out
how
to
enhance
that
and
I
agree
with
Olivia's
Point
there's
a
whole
lot
packed
into
what
we
need
to
continue
to
do
with
training
in
the
in
the
department
so
that
won't
go
away
or
can't
go
away.
That's
really
got
to
be
front
and
center.
That's
everyday
work.
That's
simply
got
to
continue
to
happen.
H
Think
it's
generally
recognized
that
police
reform,
not
only
police
reform,
but
reform
of
the
criminal
justice
sector
is
our
way
out
of
this
crisis
and
we
need
to
find
a
new
way
of
of
policing,
which
we
need
to
reinvent
policing
and
I.
Think
this
issue
of
of
oversights
Civilian
oversight
is
a
very
important
piece
of
it.
But
I
come
at
this
from
the
perspective
that
the
idea
of
creating
an
independent
city
Department
charged
with
police
oversight,
it
it
it's
not.
H
Citizen
complaints
relative
to
police
conduct
that
might
go
in
fact
go
around.
The
police
chief
is
also
a
good
idea.
So
I
think
this
is
a
very
important
issue
facing
the
city.
I
think
it's
we're
at
a
critical
Junction
now,
where
there's
a
recognition
that
we
need
to
re
reform,
not
only
policing
but
specifically
the
role
of
civilians
in
terms
of
oversight
of
the
police
department,
but
I
think
we
ought
to
come
forth
with
a
Burlington
solution
that
looks
at
a
long-standing
institution,
the
police,
commission,
and
entrusts
them
with
authority,
accountability
and
responsibility.
Thank
you.
B
K
Yeah
thanks
and
I
thanks
for
pointing
that
out
too
Martha
when
I
think
about
Public,
Safety
and
accountability.
I
think
that
any
attempt
from
Public
Safety
has
to
start
from
an
awareness
of
power
dynamics
and
power
dynamics
in
a
community,
because
not
everybody's
feeling
of
safety
is
going
to
be
the
same.
K
Somebody
might
think
that
one
level
of
accountability
goes
way
too
far,
and
someone
else
might
say
no,
that's
actually.
That
feels
just
right.
I
think
that
that
is
appropriate
and
so
keeping
in
mind
that
we're
all
going
to
have
different
experiences,
but
we're
all
part
of
this
same
public
and
we're
all
part
of
the
same
community.
K
So
truly
finding
Public
Safety
means
meeting
meeting
the
folks
who
who
maybe
need
the
most
meeting
them
where
they're
at
who
might
need
the
most
amount
of
reassurance
and
accountability.
That
I
think
that
that's
what's
needed
to
really
achieve
true
Public
Safety.
That
includes
everybody
and
I,
think
what
that
means
then,
is
looking
at
whether
the
community
members
with
the
least
amount
of
power
feel
safe.
K
I
also
think
that
true
Public
Safety
has
to
involve
accountability
and
Independence,
because,
as
folks
were
saying
earlier,
bias
is
is
a
real
thing.
So
for
there
to
be
true
accountability,
things
have
to
be
really
transparent
and
have
to
be
fully
independent
and
the
challenge
with
charging
the
police
commission
right
now
with
this
is
that
they're
not
independent
and
they
don't
have
any
Authority
and
they
don't
have
the
ability
to
be
transparent
with
the
rest
of
the
community.
K
And
the
last
thing
I'll
say
is
that
somebody
earlier
raised
the
question
of
why
why
we
can't
just
fire
a
bad
cop
and
one
of
the
counselors
I
think
responded
that
we
don't
have
that
Authority
in
city
council
and
it's
because
of
the
state
legislature
and
I
might
have
misunderstood
that.
But
I
do
know,
and
I
am
aware
that
City
councilors
can
fire
members
of
the
police
department.
K
Excuse
me,
City
councilors
can
fire
members
of
the
fire
department
and
so
whatever's
in
the
fire
department's
contract
that
allows
that
it
seems
reasonable
that
we
could
create
that
same
agreement
in
the
contract
that
police
officers
hold.
Both
of
those
departments
are
charged
with
ensuring
that
the
community
stays
safe
thanks.
B
V
I
mean
I
feel
like
I
mean
any
Larson
did
mentioned
everything
that
I
wanted
to
say,
but
just
to
thank
really
former
mayor
Peter
clavel
about
his
great
points,
but
the
importance
and
it's
it's
needed-
it's
definitely
needed.
But
the
question
right
now
is
no
longer
about
the
past
proposal,
but
as
we
move
forward,
what
is
what
what
really
fits
for
the
city
and,
from
my
perspective,
I,
think
the
charter
change
will
be
even
more
valuable
and
more
powerful
because
it
will
have
the
input
of
every
single
resident
voters
in
the
city
right.
V
If
you
go
back
a
little
bit
in
2020
December
2020,
there
was
actually
a
proposal,
and
you
all
know
what
the
city
council
did
did
was
it.
It
didn't
go
anywhere.
We
move
a
little
bit
further.
The
police
commission
itself
brought
a
resolution,
is
seeking
to
be
empowered
with
more
power
in
order
to
exist
policy
oversight.
It
did
not
go
anywhere,
so
it
seemed
as
if
the
sense
of
urgency
people
are
forgetting
it.
V
If
you
are
very
comfortable
in
your
skin
in
your
neighborhood
in
your
Tower,
there
are
people
in
this
community
that
are
struggling
and
they
want
oversight
where
they
have
the
voice.
We
currently
have
two
different
boards
and
Commission
in
the
city
to
look
into
it.
Where
is
the
input
from
the
community?
V
How
will
it
look
like
right
so
basically
we'll
create
an
ordinance
without
an
input
of
those
being
policed
and,
from
my
perspective,
that's
a
most
fundamental
aspect
that
we
need
to
ensure
whatever
we're
cooking,
when
it's
done,
how
do
we
make
sure
that
people
openly
have
their
voices
heard
and
respected
right
and
also
all
of
these
joint
meaning?
How
do
we
make
sure
right
that
members
of
this
community
are
engaged
into
these
discussions?
V
It's
not
only.
You
know
two
minutes
public
over
two
minute
public
forum,
but
it
should
be
more
than
that
right
and
I
think
work
is
required
and
anyone
with
ideas
with
expertise,
I
think
the
city
is
welcome
to
to
to
listen
to
those
and
how
do
we
bring
about
the
best
oversight
for
the
city?
Thank
you.
J
Well,
I'm
really
happy
we
could
put
together
this
form
tonight
and
I'm
really
glad
to
see
so
many
people
here
when
I
think
about
oversight.
I
think
a
huge
part,
that's
lacking
in
the
community
is
trust,
trust
with
the
police,
force
and
I.
Think
you
know
a
huge
contributor
to
that
is
really
the
lack
of
transparency
around
discipline
in
the
discipline
process.
For
those
of
you
who
don't
know,
the
chief
is
responsible
for
the
discipline
and
the
information
is
very
cloistered.
J
The
police
commission
does
get
to
review
it,
but
they
can't
like
talk
about
it.
If
so,
if
you
know
a
commissioner
feels
like
you
know,
something
was
inadequate.
Well,
we'll,
never
know
that,
and
so
how
the
community
is
finding
out
about
discipline
that
may
be
insufficient
is
the
most
extreme
explosive
cases
where
it
either
goes
to
court
or
there's
a
32-day
occupation
of
a
public
park
or
there's
an
article
in
a
newspaper
we're
only
hearing
about
these
most
explosive
disciplined
issues,
and
you
know
I
would
want
like.
J
So
you
know,
if
you
were
to
ask
me
like:
do
you
trust
the
police
department
I
feel
like
I
just
I?
Don't
have
the
information
because
I'm
only
seeing
like
the
worst
case
scenario
with
the
discipline-
and
you
know,
I-
think
that
the
discipline
could
be
more
transparent,
I
think
it
could
only
be
helpful
in
building
trust
because
you
know
You,
Know
Chief
Murad
may
be
handling
99
of
the
discipline
in
a
way
that
feels
like
really
good
and
Equitable
to
all
burlingtonians,
but
I
mean
there's.
There's
no
way
to
know
that.
J
So
for
me,
like
I,
don't
even
I,
don't
even
feel
like
I
have
the
information
to
make
an
informed
decision
on
whether
I
can
trust
the
discipline
process.
So
for
me,
I
think.
A
huge,
huge,
huge
part
of
building
trust
with
the
community
is,
for
the
there
be
ways
for
the
community
to
be
able
to
know
and
assess
how
the
discipline
is
being
handled
and
I
am
sure
that
there
are
creative
ways
that
can
be
worked
out
with
the
police
Union
in
a
way
that
also
feels
Equitable
to
them,
like.
J
Q
Q
You
know
mental
health,
mental
and
wellness
and
I
think
something
that
comes
to
my
mind
is
a
lot
of
the
folks
who
I
I
sit
with
and
share
space
with,
have
had
lots
of
encounters
with
police
and,
and
that
is
often
encounters
that
leave
them
with
a
feeling
of
distrust
and-
and
you
know
very
you
know,
just
experiences
that
just
seemed
that
could
have
been
you
know:
avoidable.
Had
there
had
there
been
different,
you
know
a
different
approach,
so
I
think
something
I.
Q
Think
of
is
just
kind
of
like
how
do
you
know
one?
How
do
we
find
ways
to
have
a
system
that
holds
people
accountable,
but
also
not
losing
the
side
of
like?
How
can
this
be
something
that
helps
proactively,
raise
awareness
and
and
and
bring
bring
people
together
to
like
not
have
to
respond
to
something
that
happens,
but
actually,
like
start
thinking
about
measures
to
get
ahead
of
moments
that
don't
need
to
happen
and
I?
Think
that
isn't
necessarily
what
like?
Q
Q
That's
actually
changes
coming
from
that
and
I
and
I
think
that's
something
that
I
hope
moving
forward,
that
we
can
find
ways
to
use
those
who
have
relationships
with
folks
in
the
community
to
bring
forward
their
voices
because
I
think
there's
lots
of
knowledge
to
gain
and
and
I
will
say
too
there's
folks
who've
had
very
you
know,
Wonderful
experiences
with
the
police,
so
it's
not
just
things
that
are
are
negative.
There's
also
lots
to
learn
from
the
the
touch
points
that
have
been
very
positive
too
and
I
I.
B
O
O
Is
that
the
best
outcome
of
reporting?
Something
is
nothing
happens,
but
if
they
report
it
and
people
know
who
their
names
are
and
the
police
know
who
their
names
are,
they
fear
retaliation
and
that's
I
think
that
going
forward
in
looking
at
oversight,
it
can't
just
be
looking
at
what's
been
reported.
There
needs
to
be
an
active
movement
and
active
Whatever
by
the
city
council
to
find
out
what's
not
being
reported,
and
why?
O
Because
that's
just
as
important,
if
not
more
important,
because
those
are
the
people
who
are
disproportionately
being
affected
by
those
negative
interactions
with
the
police
and
I
know
for
myself.
I
haven't
specifically
had
any
negative
interactions
with
any
particular
person
in
the
police
department,
but
I've
done
things
like
report.
O
The
like
transphobic
stickering
to
the
police
department
as
graffiti,
and
especially
when
I
was
first
trying
to
figure
out
who
to
reach
about
that.
No
one
responded
and
I'm
not
going
to
report
that
necessarily
to
anyone
as
a
negative
interaction
with
the
police,
even
though
it
is
which
makes
me
feel
like
they
don't,
even
if
they
do
care.
Maybe
the
person
who
got
that
report
did
care,
but
there's
nothing.
They
could
do
about
it
for
XYZ
reason.
O
O
Specifically
run
by
members
of
the
police
department,
because
that
makes
me
feel
like
they
don't
care
and
if
it's
a
situation
where
it's
like,
maybe
majority
community
members
with
some
police
experts.
That
makes
me
feel
better
because
more
people
on
that
committee
are
going
to
identify
with
me
personally
rather
than
people
who
are
a
part
of
that
community,
that
we
are
trying
to
oversee
who
are
likely,
in
my
opinion,
and
what
I've
seen
are
probably
just
going
to
default
to
agreeing
with
the
police
and
I
know.
Even
if
that's
not
true,
that's
not
necessarily
true.
O
P
I
want
to
see
just
a
small
thing
off
of
that
that
I
thought
about
when
everyone
was
talking
is
just
that
yeah
I
would
love
for
there
to
be
an
anonymous
compliments
and
complaints
that
we
could
submit
something.
I,
don't
even
know,
because
I
I,
unfortunately
had
a
really
horrible
experience
with
the
police.
F
Talking
about
police
oversight,
we
have
to
figure
out
where
we
are
right
now.
Has
anybody
read
the
April
Chiefs
report?
We
have
64
people
on
the
police
department
totally
of
that.
Six
of
them
are
inactive
now
at
least
58..
As
you
look
at
the
chart
that
they
have,
there
are
only
26
police
officers
on
a
24-hour
basis
in
our
city
right
now.
F
What
we
need
is
oversight
of
hiring
getting
people
in
line
and
get
us
back
up
to
96
people,
then
I
think
we
should
go
out
and
try
to
look
for
an
oversight
and
that
oversight
talking
about
Peter
clavel
here
he's
absolutely
right.
We
don't
need,
and
people
voted
down
the
bureaucracy
of
number
seven
on
the
ballot,
so
we
don't
want
to
go
there.
F
We
want
to
go
and
make
our
police
commission
that
strong
oversight-
and
on
top
of
that
you
have
the
city
council,
and
on
top
of
that
you
have
the
mayor,
so
you
have
a
chain
of
checks
and
balances
already
in
place
that
have
been
in
place
for
hundreds
of
years
in
the
city
and
I.
Don't
think
you
have
to
go
reaching
out
for
some
obscure
thing
that
people
just
voted
number
seven.
I
When
I
know,
there's
morale
within
the
police
department
when
there's
coverage
for
the
community,
there
has
to
be
some
level
of
peace
between
the
police
department
and
the
community
and
I.
Don't
feel
that
the
city
is
on
a
good
track
when
I
go
downtown
I,
don't
always
feel
comfortable
anymore,
going
to
dinner
on
Church
Street,
the
other
night
yeah
it
wasn't.
The
same,
I
didn't
feel
unsafe,
but
I've
found
myself
really
being
aware
of
my
surroundings.
I
Looking
over
my
shoulder
and
it's
kind
of
a
weird
unsettled
feeling
in
my
little
City
of
Burlington,
so
my
hope
would
be
that
the
community
allows
the
police
department
to
get
back
on
track
and
that
there
is
something
that
happens
whatever
the
heck.
It's
called
that
lends
communication
lends
trust
and
rebuilds,
because
I
do
fear
that
the
city
is
going
in
the
wrong
direction
as
a
whole
because
of
a
lot
of
these
events,
so
just
my
two
cents.
A
A
A
L
K
L
I
I
myself
feel
that
the
Burlington
Police
break
that
they're
just
not
going
to
enforce
traffic
violations
or
minor
traffic
violations.
Remind
me
of
New
York
of
the
1970s
I
think
it
was
when
they
decided
I
can't
remember
who
the
mayor
was
then
they're
going
to
crack
down
on
a
pot
and
then
they're
going
to
start
investigating
crack
window
people.
You
know
those
kind
of
monitorize
the
whole.
The
idea
was
you.
L
They
had
some
reason,
even
with
minor
crimes,
because
there
was
a
problem
with
that
for
us
and
the
reason
it's
like
I
don't
have
an
answer,
but
my
question
is
for
the
commission:
why
are
your
clients,
the
ones
you
described,
which
I
think
our
product?
Why
were
they
not
taken
up
because
we
defunded
the
police
and
or
there
is
a
bias
in
the
police
department?
L
But
we
have
to
know
the
answer
to
that.
You
know
both
of
them
are
measurable
factors
and
we
have
to
restore
the
trust
in
our
community
to
walk
down.
Church
Street,
I
completely
agree,
and
but
we're
just
entering
this
era.
If
it's
Nationwide
of
this
things
are
bad,
things
are
unsafe.
Things
are
criminal,
things
are
evil
and
we
need
a
place
for
us
to
stop
it.
You
know
control,
they
play
such
a
critical
role
in
that
fight
in
our
community,
even
little
town
of
Burlington
with
45
000
residents.
L
L
I
L
J
J
Last
night
I
went
to
a
police
commission
meeting
and
they
read
a
pause
of
comment
from
a
Community
member
who
had
witnessed
an
interaction
and
they
complimented
the
officer's
handling
of
a
dangerous
situation
peaceably.
So
yeah
I
encourage
people
who
who
do
want
to
give
those
compliments
I'm
sure
there
are
people
that
would
love
to
hear
those.
R
Just
a
quick
reminder:
I
I
am
now
on
the
city.
Council
I
am
serving
on
the
Public
Safety
Committee,
as
some
of
you
know,
I
previously
served
as
a
police
commissioner
and
I
served
on
the
special
committee
to
review
policing
policies,
so
I've
been
knee-deep
in
public
safety
issues
going
on
for
four
years
now,.
R
I've
been
taking
a
lot
of
notes,
so
thank
you,
Lee
for
what
you
said.
Absolutely
correct.
People
can
report
commendations
directly
to
the
police
department
or
report
them
to
any
one
of
the
police
Commissioners.
The
email
addresses
are
located
on
the
city's
website
and
this
can
also
include
commendations.
We
recently
had
accommodation
during
my
last
meeting
for
CSO,
which
was
great
to
see
because
people
in
the
community
are
welcoming
those
positions
and
those
positions
are
able
to
handle
a
number
of
incidents
that
do
not
require
a
sworn
officer.
R
R
People
don't
want
to
give
enough
I
don't
want
to
give
information.
They
don't
even
want
anybody
to
know
what
they
have
so
they'll
submit
something
on
the
portal,
but
there's
no
contact
information,
and
sometimes
we
can't
follow
up
on
certain
complaints.
If
we
can't
actually
talk
to
a
person,
the
police
department
can't
follow
up
with
them
if
they
can't
actually
talk
to
the
person
to
verify
certain
details,
but
some
people
do
that
because
they
are
afraid
that
they
would
be
targeted.
That
is
a
real
fear.
R
There
are
Park
Rangers
now
and
one
of
the
issues
that
the
park
rangers
are
going
to
be
working
on
is
to
be
educating
people
on
how
to
use
the
space,
and
this
would
be
people
that
include
Burlington
residents
tourists,
because
there
has
been
issues
in
the
past
with
the
number
of
bonfires
that
were
being
set
so
park
rangers
will
be
on
the
beaches.
I
think
there's
only
two
of
them
right
now,
but
I
know
there's
some
seasonal
people
I'd
have
to
check
into
that.
R
R
R
R
It
I
found
it
personally
disappointing
that
a
lot
of
these
items
I
wish
they
could
have
done
better.
For
example,
the
department
does
not
save
disciplinary
records
for
very
long,
it's
way
below
what
is
considered
best
practice
and
it
really
wasn't
increased
much,
and
there
were
a
number
of
items
too
numerous
in
detail
to
go
into
now.
But
anyone
who
wants
to
look
at
the
contract
it
is
available
to
look
at
trust.
Trust
is
really
important.
Trust
is
in
the
first
pillar
of
the
21st
century,
policing.
R
That
is
something
that
is
thrown
around
a
lot,
but
we
don't
follow
those
pillars
in
Burlington
and
that's
something
we
need
to
be
honest
about
and
that
we
need
to
look
at
37
of
the
population
voted
for
ballot
item
seven.
Yes,
that
percentage
was
not
enough
to
pass
it,
but
it's
not
an
insignificant
number.
R
R
The
same
Equity
is
an
is,
is
an
issue
and
Equity
not
only
just
around
race
but
around
economics
many
levels
so
I
encourage
everyone
to
look
into
the
21st
century,
policing
and
the
pillars.
Everyone
in
the
city
should
familiarize
yourself
with
them
and
say
what
is
our
department
doing
to
meet
these
pillars,
because
we
need
them
to
really
take
a
look
at
that
and
they
have
a
new
person
who
will
be
helping
with
providing
Outreach
and
public
information
she's
fairly
new
she's
training
right
now,
I,
look
forward,
I!
V
R
Might
have
been
another
question
that
I
might
have
missed
that
someone,
oh
hiring
I,
will
say
about
hiring
quickly.
I
did
bring
up
several
times
issues
around
the
fact
that
we
had
the
commission
had
supported
the
city
council
voted
for
the
increase
in
the
pay
and
the
bonuses,
and
then
we
weren't
advertising
them
adequately
and
I
brought
this
to
the
attention
of
the
mayor.
R
I,
ultimately
brought
it
attention
to
city
council
president
Paul,
who
had
it
fixed,
but
some
of
that
information,
if
you're
someone,
especially
from
out
of
state
and
you're,
considering
a
lateral
transfer
to
our
city,
you're,
not
getting
the
full
information
about
what's
available
to
you
and
that
might
prevent
you
from
putting
in
an
application.
So
I
think
we
have
to
make
sure
that
we're
dotting
all
the
eyes
and
crossing
the
teams.
R
It
was
ridiculous
to
have
gone
through
the
process
to
do
this
increase
and
fun
so
that
we,
the
department,
can
build
back
and
then
not
advertise
what
we
were
offering
even
on
the
city's
own
website,
where
you
go
to
put
in
an
application,
the
salary
was
wrong.
It
was
pretty
astounding.
Thank
you
very
much
me
Grant
at
burlingtonb.gov
would
be
happy
to
answer
any
of
the
questions.
People
have.
M
An
ongoing
process,
I
mean
and
I
think
that's
really
the
point
of
it.
There
has
been
a
lot
of
work
done
so
I
just
want
to
like
clarify
and
I
think
somebody
mentioned
the
work
that
had
started
with
the
police
commission.
So
we've
got
a
document.
We've
got
a
lot
of
feedback,
so
it
hasn't
been
like
coming
out
of
nowhere,
but
the
whole
point
of
tonight
and
other
meetings
will
be
to
to
continue
to
get
it.
E
M
Just
I
don't
want
to
kind
of
just
quickly
clarify
we're
talking
about
a
a
process
in
the
next
few
months
to
clarify
and
establish
a
better
process,
particularly
around
reporting
and
transparency
of
police
discipline
that
doesn't
stop
all
the
work
we've
got
to
do
on
improving
policing.
We
we
have
a
Public,
Safety,
Committee
they're,
going
to
look
at
Trends
they're,
going
to
look
at
Outreach
I
mean,
and
we
have
the
police
commission
who
needs
to
be
independent
and
if
they're
not
independent
enough.
M
O
So
just
two
things
really
quick:
one
is
I
totally
hear
and
to
some
extent
agree
that
I
don't
feel
like
there's
necessarily
enough
staff
on
the
police
to
handle
everything
that's
being
thrown
at
them,
but
at
the
same
time,
I.
Don't
think
that
it's
a
situation
where
we
have
to
where
we
can
wait
on
things
like
an
ordinance
like
this
to
hire
up
to
that
I.
Think
those
things
need
to
be
in
tandem
to
show
people
to
show
Faith
to
the
community,
but
also
to
tell
potential
hires
in
the
police
department.
O
This
is
what
we're
looking
for.
They
can't
it
can't
be
one
and
then
the
other
they
can
be
at
the
same
time,
but
it
can't
be.
We
have
to
staff
up
before
we
figure
this
out.
We
need
to
figure
it
out
in
my
opinion.
First
and
then
the
other
thing
is
I.
Think
it's
really
important
to
make
sure
whether
these
conversations
continue
to
happen
like
in
this
sort
of
form
or
any
other
Forum.
O
It
needs
to
be
making
sure
we're
reaching
out
to
everyone,
not
just
the
people
who
maybe
have
the
time
to
they
don't
have
kids
or
they
can
leave
their
kids
at
home,
or
maybe
people
have
to
work
at
night
or
whatever
to
make
ends
meet.
We
need
to
make
sure
we're
reaching
every
single
person,
because
the
people
who
are
the
most
marginalized
and
the
people
who
view
the
police
as
untrustworthy
are
the
people
who
are
more
likely
to
be
abused
by
the
power
the
police
have.