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From YouTube: The Grant Street Experience: Jordan Fischbach
Description
On this episode of The Grant Street Experience, Grant Ervin and Rebecca Kiernan talk to Jordan Fischbach from the RAND Corporation.
A
Hello
and
welcome
to
the
grant
street
experience,
I'm
your
host
grant
urban
chief
resilience
officer
here
for
the
city
of
pittsburgh
and
with
me
today.
I
have
some
exciting
guests
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
resilience
in
the
city
of
pittsburgh
and
the
one
pgh
process
that
we
undertook
a
couple
years
ago.
C
Sure
yes
happy
to
do
so,
so
I'm
a
senior
policy
researcher
at
rand
and
I
actually
just
celebrated
my
10th
anniversary,
my
anniversary.
We
call
it
sometimes.
Yes,
I
know
we
have
that's
fun,
so
I'm
a
senior
policy
researcher
at
rand
and
I
also
co-direct
rand's
kind
of
resilience
center.
So
really
over
the
course
of
my
career
at
rand,
I
focused
on
a
number
of
different
topics
that
are
loosely
related
to
the
world
of
climate
resilience.
C
My
background
in
training,
I'm
I
have
a
phd
in
policy
analysis
so
really
focused
on
exactly
these
topics.
It's
kind
of
a
combination
of
economics
statistics
a
little
bit
of
political
science
and
a
lot
of
for
me
quantitative
modeling
as
well,
and
with
that
background
I
came
into
rand
really
wanting
to
focus
on
issues
related
to
resilience,
and
a
lot
of
my
background
is
actually
on
sort
of
on
the
infrastructure
side
on
the
asset
side
and
what
I'd
say
is
over
the
course
of
time.
C
I've
worked
on
a
number
of
projects
related
to
resilience,
disaster
resilience,
thinking
more
broadly
about
future
planning.
More
and
more
I've
come
to
understand
that
that
role.
You
know
it's
it's
not
just
about
the
stuff
and
the
assets,
it's
about
the
people
as
well,
so
I
now
see
the
the
world
of
resilience
that
we
that
we
work
within
and
and
what
I
do
being
much
more
about
the
the
intersection
between
the
places
that
we
inhabit
the
infrastructure
we
rely
on
and
the
actual
people
that
benefit
from
those.
C
So
I
more
broadly
speaking,
I'd
say
that
so
I've
done
work
on
climate
and
disaster
resilience
really
across
the
country.
I've
done
a
lot
of
work
in
in
coastal,
louisiana,
focusing
on
flood
risk
assessment
and
coastal
master
planning
for
louisiana,
really
starting
after
the
2005
hurricane
season
in
hurricane
katrina.
C
But
increasingly
I
I
got
curious
and
wanted
to
pay
more
attention
to
what
climate
impacts
would
be
in
a
in
a
landlocked
city
like
pittsburgh
and
in
in
cities
that
were
maybe
not
that
that
first
layer
of
focus,
but
nevertheless
we're
going
to
deal
with
climate
impacts,
ranging
from
you
know,
extreme
heat
to
extreme
rainfall.
So
that's
really
been
the
large
focus
of
my
work
for
the
last
five
to
six
years.
A
Great
you
know
it's
interesting,
I'm
just
looking
to
get
you
guys
side
by
side
in
the
screen
here
and
realize
that
we
all
kind
of
came
to
know
each
other
around
the
same
point
in
time
rebecca,
maybe
for
for
listeners.
If
you
could
frame
out
kind
of
the
the
you
know,
the
rockefeller
100
resilient
cities
process
in
terms
of
like
the
the
platform,
partnership
and
the
different
aspects
of
the
program,
and
then
you
know
jordan.
A
B
C
B
But
when
we
so
when
we
entered
into
the
100
resilient
cities
program
back
in
2015,
the
rockefeller
foundation
offered
pittsburgh
and
all
of
the
hundred
cities
that
they
funded
like
four
core
offerings,
so
one
of
that
one
of
them
was
staffing
capacity,
so
that
was
my
position.
Grant
was
also
funded
through
that
another
was
a
policy
partner
so
that
that
was
the
rand
corporation,
which
is
how
we
got
jordan
and
linnea
to
help
us
with
our
strategy.
B
B
A
You
know
just
to
pick
up
on
that
jordan.
So
can
you
explain
a
little
bit
for
folks
like
what
that
meant?
You
know
from
the
rand
side
of
the
equation.
You
guys
were
indispensable
for
the
work
that
rebecca
and
I
helped
lead,
but
you
know
what
does
that
mean
to
be
a
planning
partner
in
terms
of
kind
of
you
know,
one
of
the
things
I'm
thinking
about
some
really
seminal
work,
I
think
was
the
preliminary
resilience
assessment,
but
maybe
if
you
can
share
a
little
bit
about
that.
C
So
our
our
job
and
our
mission
is
really
to
do
just
this,
which
is
to
bring
data,
analysis,
data
and
analysis
to
improve
decision
making
and
really
help
in
in
these
situations,
where
policies
you
know
can
be
improved
by
by
research
and
analysis
and
and
decision
makers
are
looking
for
science
to
support
those
decisions.
So
this
is
a
great
example
of
that
and
one
where
you
know
rand.
C
Historically,
we've
done
a
lot
of
work
with
with
federal
agencies
or
kind
of
on
on
larger
efforts
sort
of
at
the
national
scale.
That's
not
always
true,
but
it's
often
true,
and
I
think
the
work
that
we
did
with
you
with
the
city
of
pittsburgh
is
a
really
good
example
of
how
we
are
trying
and
we
think
it's
very
important
to
bring
that
kind
of
research
and
analysis
into
the
local
planning
context.
C
So,
as
a
as
a
strategy
partner,
we
had
to
do
a
little
bit
of
jack
of
jack-of-all-trades
and
there
was
some
additivity
involved
there,
but
some
of
the
the
main
things
that
we
did.
We
helped
to
have
a
sort
of
a
kick
off
with
a
main
convening
and
bring
together
a
huge
number
of
the
stakeholders
that
were
going
to
be
involved
in
the
resilience
planning
process.
We
did
some
background
research,
so
you
mentioned,
grant
the
preliminary
resilience
assessment,
which
was
this.
C
C
What
what
do
you
think
are
the
most
important
factors?
What
do
you
see
as
our
long-term
stressors
and
potential
shocks
that
we
might
face
in
the
future,
so
a
lot
of
that
was
was
really
pulling
together.
What
opinions
of
of
both
residents
and
decision
makers
around
the
city
were
and
then
collating
collating
that
into
something
that
could
be
useful
to
help
prioritize,
what
what
resilience
investments
should
look
like.
C
So
that
was
the
preliminary
resilience
assessment,
and
then
I
think
you
know
from
there
forward
a
lot
of
it
was
trying
to
organize
and
and
and
help
to
structure
out
what
a
resilient
strategy
would
look
like,
recognizing
all
the
work
that
was
happening
in
pittsburgh
and
across
the
metropolitan
region
already.
So
this
was
not
trying
to
sort
of
create
something
out
of
whole
cloth
and
and
and
just
start
something
new,
but
rather
trying
to
say
how
can
we?
C
C
Okay,
so
yeah
so
from
from
a
practice
perspective.
I
think
it
was
a.
I
mean
it
was
a
great
experience
overall
and
in
part,
because
a
lot
of
the
the
the
policy
research
I
do,
we
sometimes
call
it
sort
of
participatory
analysis
or
deliberation
with
analysis,
but
one
of
one
of
my
goals
is
really
to
bring
our
research
as
much
as
possible
into
and
put
it
directly
in
the
hands
of
folks
who
are
making
decisions,
but
also
to
get
feedback
from
key
stakeholders
and
understand.
C
Well,
what
are
you
worried
about?
What
are
you
thinking
about
in
the
future
and
how
can
that
help
to
inform
the
questions
that
we're
asking
and
the
analysis
that
we
do,
and
so
this
process
was
a
tailor-made,
a
perfect
example
of
that
of
that
kind
of
thing,
where
we
were
primarily
there
to
listen
and
to
hear
from
from
from
those
participants
about
what
they
were
concerned
about
and
what
they
saw
as
the
core
issues
facing
the
city.
Building
up
to
this
resilience
challenge.
C
So
as
a
process,
I
thought
that
was
great.
I
like
doing
that
listening
and
I
think
from
a
content
perspective,
and
I
think
we
see
this
especially
now,
those
those
assessments
were
really
accurate.
What
we
learned
during
the
preliminary
resilience
assessment,
I
think,
reflect
very
well
reflected
the
challenges
that
our
study
faces
and
when
I
think
about
it
in
the
context
of
this
cova-19
pandemic
that
we
are
now
within.
C
I
think
a
number
of
those
long-term
stressors
that
pop
to
the
surface,
as
as
our
key
challenges,
are
the
key
challenges.
Those
are
the
ones
that
are
really
affecting
our
our
ability
to
respond
right
now
and
and
will
affect
our
ability
to
recover
in
the
longer
term,
and
I
appreciate
the
fact
that
we-
actually-
I
think
you
mentioned
this
on
one
of
these
conversations
a
few
weeks
ago,
but
but
we
did
note
that
disease
outbreak
and
pandemic
was
a
possibility.
A
A
I
mean
one
of
the
things
that
was
so
powerful
about.
For
me,
I
think
about
the
deliberate
forum
process
is
that
you
could
have
somebody
polar
opposites
in
terms
of
political
spectrum
right
or
ideology,
and
they
have
to
sit
next
to
one
another
and
they
have
to
be
able
to
to
have
a
civil
conversation
and
come
to
some
sense
of
agreement.
A
B
Well,
I
think
one
of
so
the
way
the
deliberative
forum
process
works.
Maybe
for
those
who
don't
know
is
people
come
so
you
have
this
the
setup
where
you
have
maybe
ten
different
tables
spread
out
throughout
the
room,
and
then
you
have
a
formatted
agenda
of
what
you
go
through
so
when,
when
you
come
in
you
get
assigned
a
seat
so
that
you're
not
even
sitting
with
your
friends,
so
you're
you're
split
up.
B
So
you
don't
know
anybody
and
you're
set
at
one
of
those
tables
and
then
when
the
program
does
start,
you
know
everybody
is
given
the
same
sheet
of
paper
with
the
same
notes
on
it.
You
see
a
presentation,
so
everybody
gets
the
same
level
set
and
the
same
information
from
the
beginning,
and
then
it's
you
know
focused
on
that
topic.
So
everyone
learns
the
same
thing
up
front.
B
So
you
know
everybody
hears
all
the
same
information
and
then
talks
about
it
together
and
then
based
on
that
whole
program,
then
we
we
give
them
an
exit
survey
and
from
that
exit
survey,
then
we're
able
to
glean
all
the
information
that
we
that
we
wanted
to
get.
But
you
know
residents
get
the
same.
They
get
information
too
out
of
it.
So
I
think,
what's
really
good
about
that
format.
That's
not
happening
right
now,
just
generally
in
the
world
is
that
everybody
gets
the
same
information
and
then
makes
their
determination.
B
Based
on
that
information.
What's
happening
right
now
is
you
know
you
could
watch
one.
You
know
liberal
news
station
or
you
could
watch
you
know
a
conservative
news
station
and
you're
getting
two
different
sides
of
the
story,
but
at
a
deliberative
forum
you
know
not
only
are
you
sitting
and
talking
to
people
and
deliberating
but
you're
getting
that
same
information,
and
I
think
that's
what's
super
important,
so
you
know
at
ours
it
was
really
good.
B
For
you
know
we
gave
we
gave
people
the
the
information
about
some
of
the
you
know,
climate
risks
that
we're
seeing
you
know.
What's
going
on
in
the
city,
we
gave
them
some
factoids,
and
then
we
asked
them
to
help
us
develop
that
shocks
and
stresses
profile,
and
you
know
people
were
able
to
talk
it
out
and
talk
about
what
was
happening
in
their
in
their
own
neighborhoods.
A
C
Yeah,
that's
a
good
question,
so
I
one
thing
I
wanted
to
build
on
from
what
rebecca
was
saying
too
is
is
just
this
idea
of
starting
from
a
common
basis
effect,
and
I
think
that's
something
that
we
in
the
past
maybe
had
taken
for
granted
or
was
something
that
we
just
sort
of
assumed
would
be
when
we
think
about
policy
analysis
would
be
something
that
we
could
do.
That
is
increasingly
a
challenged
assumption.
C
C
You
know
different
scenarios
of
the
future
and
help
bring
that
back
to
those
who
are
participating
in
the
conversations
and
and
one
of
the
goals
there
is
actually
really
to
be
able
to
make
sure
that
their
perspective
is
represented
in
the
world
that
we're
looking
at,
and
so
it's
interesting.
I
do
a
lot
of
scenario.
C
Analysis,
and
one
of
the
things
we
try
to
do
is
is
look
as
widely
as
possible
across
what
different
people
think
about
what
the
future
could
bring
to
make
sure
that,
when
we're
looking
at
a
particular
decision
or
a
you
know
a
strategy
that
we
might
develop,
that
we
can
account
for
that
as
one
you
know,
set
of
future
possibilities
and
that
that
participant
feels,
like
their
perspective,
is
represented
in
the
work.
So
that's
the
quantitative
world
for
something
like
this.
C
It's
really
just
mostly
about
listening,
trying
to
capture
those
perspectives
and
distill
them
down,
often
using
sort
of
a
common
framework.
Increasingly-
and
this
is
not
my
area
of
expertise,
but
a
lot
of
colleagues
are
using
tools
to
help
support
that
by
you
know,
text
analysis
and
actually
going
back
and
listening
to
recordings
using,
like
you,
know,
computation,
basically
as
a
way
of
of
distilling
out
some
themes
that
we
might
otherwise
miss
when
we're
just
doing
this
as
researchers.
So
it's
often
supported
by
that
type
of
analysis.
C
But
ultimately
the
goal
is
to
identify
where
you
know.
Where
are
areas
of
consensus?
Where
do
we
see
particular
particular
themes
emerging
from
those
various
conversations?
And
then
you
know
building
a
framework
around
that
and
bringing
that
back
both
to
those
participants
and
to
decision
makers
like
you.
A
In
that
you
know
a
lot
of
the
content
in
the
preliminary
resilience
assessment,
both
from
looking
at
data,
but
also
in
talking
with
people
around
town
here
became
a
really
good
prognostication
of
what
was
to
happen
right.
You
know
whether
that's
storm
events
and
or
weather
events
or
a
pandemic
like
these
are
things
that
are
on
people's
minds
and
like
rebecca
to
your
point
when
you
level
set
you're
able
to
come
together
with
this
common
kind
of
predictive
analytic
tool,
almost
yeah,
I
mean
go
ahead.
Yeah.
C
No,
so
I
again
I'm
gonna
I'll
I'll
challenge
you
there
in
one
point,
which
is
I
almost
never
use.
The
word
predict
in
terms
of
predicting
the
future
in
my
world,
predictions
are
dangerous
and
all
predictions
are
wrong,
and
you
know
I
I
don't
you
know
many
people
were
concerned
about
the
possibility
of
pandemic.
Nobody
predicted
this
pandemic
at
this
particular
time
because
it
was
a
roll
of
the
dice
in
terms
of
how
that
happened.
So
rather
I
I
you
know,
I
often
talk
about
sort
of
projecting.
C
C
And
that
is
exactly
what
we're
seeing
right
now
and
I
think
we've
really
experienced
that-
and
I
want
to
hear
more
from
you
about
your
your
thoughts
on
that.
But
I
I
you
know
I
just
I
go
back
to
that
and
say:
yes,
we
were
right
and
that
that
was
that
was
the
right
message
and
in
fact
it
sort
of
reinforces
that
working
on
those
key
stressors
is,
is
all
the
more
important
as
we
proceed
through
this
shock
and
then,
as
we
move
forward,
hopefully
into
a
recovery
phase.
B
Yeah,
so
the
equity
indicators
report
was
a
two-year
study
that
was
also
funded
through
the
hundred
resilient
cities
program.
So
we
followed
a
model
developed
by
cuny.
The
city
university
of
new
york
has
an
institute
for
state
and
local
governance
and
they,
you
know,
allowed
cities
to
apply
through
this
program
to
be
part
of
this
first
cohort.
That
would
replicate
their
study
so
pittsburgh
oakland,
tulsa,
houston,
dallas,
dallas
and
st
louis.
B
So
five,
five
cities
not
houston
thanks,
so
that
was
the
first
cohort
and
basically
what
we
did
was
we
replicated
this
cuny
model
which
looked
at
in
pittsburgh.
We
looked
at
80
indicators,
so
we
took
those
indicators,
so
these
are
data
points.
So
this
is
you
know
things
like
you
know:
public
health
outcomes,
or
so
like
asthma
rate,
was
one
of
them
low
birth
weight.
B
What
else
affordable,
housing,
transportation
indicators?
So
we
had
a
series
of
of
different
topics
so
out
of
the
80
indicators,
we
then
took
the
indicators
and
split
them
up
based
on
demographics,
race,
gender
economics,
so
household
income
and
then
based
on
the
outcomes
for
that
particular
indicator.
We
took
the
highest
and
the
lowest.
So,
for
example,
in
some
cases
they
were
mostly
done
on
on
race
lines,
so
black
versus
white
population,
but
some
of
the
outcomes
ended
up
being
split
more
for
for
gender,
some
male
versus
female
outcomes.
B
Some
of
them
were
along
economic
lines,
so
high
income
versus
low
income
so,
for
example,
the
asthma
rate,
because
I've
looked
at
this
one,
the
most
was
double
that
so
his
childhood
asthma
hospitalization
rate
was
double
for
children
for
white
children
or
sorry
for
black
children
than
it
was
for
white
children.
So
we
were
able
to
start
to
get
to
those
data
points,
so
you
could
understand
the
disparities
in
you
know:
health
or
transportation
or
whatever
outcomes.
B
So
that's
so
you
know
we
have
80
different
indicators,
a
report
over
two
years,
so
we
were
able
to
start
to
to
track.
You
know
changes,
so
you
know.
Eventually,
we
would
like
to
you
know,
get
to
a
point
where
you
could
pinpoint
the
policy
or
the
program
and
see
maybe
how
those
outcomes
might
change.
Although
there's
a
lot
of
variables
to
that
great.
C
Yeah,
no,
I
I
mean,
I
think,
rebecca
laid
it
out
well
in
terms
of
the
overall
effort.
The
story
that
it
tells
is
is
one
that
really
reinforces
what
what
we're
the
narrative
that
we've
experienced
here
in
pittsburgh,
which
is
just
the
profound
difference
in
experience
for
black
and
white
pittsburghers
across
our
region,
and
I
think,
there's
been
other
research
done,
that
that
comes
to
similar
conclusions
and
just
the
the
stark
inequities
that
we
see
across.
So
many
of
the
dimensions
that
were
collected.
C
What
that's
going
to
mean
in
recognizing
the
additional
burden
placed
on
black
residents
here
because
of
what
existed
before
and
the
way
that
they're
being
disproportionately
affected
now
by
this
pandemic.
So
that
kind
of
jumps
out
at
me.
But
it's
also,
I
mean
rebecca
mentioned.
You
know
using
this
to
try
to
pinpoint
policies
or
investments
that
need
to
be
made.
I
would
also
note
that
you
know
like
stepping
back
and
looking
across
them
it
it.
C
It
tells
the
story
of
the
the
degree
of
systems
change,
that's
needed
and
the
number
of
things
that
we
need
to
work
on
and
fix
at
once.
It
can
feel
somewhat
overwhelming.
I
think
sometimes,
but
recognizing
that,
even
if
we
make
progress
on
one
or
two
of
these
variables
that
you
know
that
rebecca
described
that
in
order
to
really
change
that
picture,
it's
going
to
take
a
significant
degree
of
change
across
many
different.
C
You
know
outcomes
at
once,
an
investment
that
spans
the
whole
a
whole
set
of
interlocking
systems,
and
increasingly,
I
think,
that's
what
others
are
pointing
to
as
well
as
that
sort
of
transformational
change,
as
opposed
to
incremental
change
that
we're
going
to
need
to
turn
to.
In
the
wake
of
covet
recovery.
A
Rand
and
pittsburgh
had
some
of
its
roots.
So
with
that
issue
of
fragmentation,
I
mean
any
thoughts
in
that
regard
regard
because
it's
something
that
has
been
with
us
right
fragmentation
and
it
was
typically
kind
of
looked
at
as
a
government
thing.
We
have
a
lot
of
governments
right,
local
governments,
authorities,
small
municipalities,
but
it's
a
lot
more
than
that.
Isn't
it
the
issue?
C
Sure
so
I
think
first,
it's
worth
just
reviewing
the
stats
a
little
bit
so
there's
90
neighborhoods
in
pittsburgh,
there's
130
independent
municipalities,
just
within
allegheny
county.
I
think
the
count
is
about
900
government
units
across
the
metropolitan
region
for
for
pittsburgh
as
a
whole,
which
I
think
is
second
in
the
country
behind
the
chicago
metropolitan
area.
In
terms
of
number
of
government
units
per
capita,
you
know
per
per
population
and
then,
as
rebecca's
noted
previously
there's
you
know
3
100
nonprofits
in
pittsburgh.
C
So
we
we
see
this
in
in
many
different
ways.
I
think
the
government
government
side
is
very
important
to
note,
but
it
extends
well
beyond
government
and
what
it
means
in
practice
is
that
that
both
the
the
resources
are
so
spread
out
across
and
differentially
spread
out
across
both
the
the
public,
private
and
non-profit
side.
In
terms
of
who
has
those
resources-
and
I
think
that
relates
to
who
has
the
power
to
actually
enact
change
as
well
and
so
you're.
C
C
So
I
I
again,
I
more
so
I
think,
even
than
we
were
we
were
thinking
about
then,
when,
when
we
start
thinking
about
recovery
from
this
this
shock,
how
are
you
know
how
how
you
know
if
there
are,
if
there
are
new
resources
that
come
into
play
for
recovery?
How
will
those
resources
get
spent
who's
going
to
get
to
make
those
decisions
and
which
you
know,
organizations
whether
it's
government
or
not,
will
have
the
capacity
to
know
where
to
get
the
resources
and
what
what
they
can
do
with
them?
C
C
C
And
so,
if
you
want
to
do
anything
with
those
roads,
then
then
you
have
to
work
with
with
penndot,
with
the
department
of
transportation
to
make
progress,
and
so
even
the
most
basic
decisions
or
the
most
basic
city
functions
that
most
people
would
say.
Okay,
well,
the
mayor
can
do
that
in
fact
gets
much
more
complicated
because
you
have
all
of
these
different
actors
involved
in
in
you
know
in
the
in
what
seems
like
a
fairly
innocuous
and
simple
decision.
C
You
mentioned
the
water
space.
So
I'll
note
that
you
know
I
do
a
lot
of
work
on
on
water
infrastructure
and
water
resources,
and
it's
particularly
apparent
there,
where
we
have
a
regional
wastewater
system,
the
allegheny
county,
sanitary
authority,
that
that
manages
wastewater
from
about
83
municipalities
across
the
region
and
and
they
have
responsibility
for
taking
in
and
treating
wastewater
and
dealing
with
our
our
region's
perpetual
issues
with
this
old
combined
sewer
system.
So
they
are
sort
of
the
last
line
of
defense
in
terms
of
managing
that
system.
C
However,
most
of
our
our
storm
water
and
our
wastewater
system
is
actually
owned
and
operated
by
the
municipalities,
not
by
by
that
regional
authority,
and
so
when
it
comes
to
repairing
pipes
and
actually
taking
care
of
most
of
that,
it
falls
on
those
83
individual
municipalities,
including
pittsburgh,
and
they
have
wildly
different
capacity
to
do
things
with
that.
And
so
you've
got
this
this.
C
This
situation
set
up
where
it
might
make
sense,
and
there
might
be
you
know,
economies
of
scale
to
invest
more
systematically
to
reduce
pipe
leakage,
to
try
to
put
in
more
significant
investments
to
reduce
sewer
overflows
and
to
manage
the
system
more.
As
a
system,
and
yet
what
we
really
have
is
a
whole
patchwork
of
different
little
pieces
of
that
that
are
all
connected
together
and
that
don't
work
well
because
of
the
differences
in
capacity
and
resources
between
those
municipalities
and
the
need
for
coordination.
C
So
that
I
mean
it's
a
small
example,
but
we
see
it
in
other
places
as
well,
when
you
think
about
sort
of
municipal
boundaries
and
government
boundaries
versus
watersheds,
because,
as
it
turns
out,
water
doesn't
care
where
your
city
boundary
is
your
border
is
flooding?
Doesn't
you
know
flood
issues
don't
emerge
just
in
one
place
and
not
another.
It's
going
gonna
flow
where
it's
going
to
flow,
and
we
you
know
we
did
not
draw
boundaries
here.
C
It
puts
a
further
onus
on
everyone
involved
if
you're
gonna
look
at
sort
of
watershed,
scale
planning
if
you're
going
to
deal
with
issues
like
flooding,
that's
going
to
inherently
put
a
burden
on
all
of
the
government
and
non-government
actors
there
to
pull
together,
see
it
as
a
watershed
and
focus
that
some
people
call
it
sort
of
a
one
water
approach,
start
to
to
bring
those
perspectives
together
to
make
progress
on
on
goals
collectively,
and
it's
gonna
involve
a
dozen
different
actors.
Instead
of
one
or
two.
A
You
made
this
to
the
one
water
you
made
me
think
about,
like
the
dutch
water
boards
right,
you
know
effectively
been
around
for
four
five
six
hundred
years.
In
some
cases
you
know
originally
created
to
to
manage
kind
of
the
the
sea,
water
right
and
building
assistance,
dykes,
but
basically
have
evolved
to
managing
the
full
cycle
of
water.
A
C
I
I
think,
that's
a
great
example
of
exactly
the
opposite
right,
so
those
are
the
water
districts
and
these
water
boards
that
are
organized
around
watersheds
and
they
have
the
authority
and
the
resources
to
think
systematically
about
water
quality,
about
water
supply,
about
flood
management
and,
as
it
turns
out,
it's
a
lot
easier
and
more
effective
to
work.
That
way
than
the
system
that
we
have.
A
A
You
know
rebecca,
maybe
some
of
the
the
figures
that
you've
started
to
see
in
the
work
that
you
and
our
colleague,
melanie
areola,
have
started
to
develop
in
terms
of
rain
and
those
impacts,
and
then
jordan,
you
know:
where
do
we
need
to
go
given
kind
of
these
changes
right,
rebecca?
Maybe
for
a
start
there.
B
B
So
when
we
do
see
those
really
intense,
microburst
type
of
storms,
you
know
they're
taking
our
our
hillsides,
which
are
already
a
little
bit
unstable
because
we
haven't
been
maintaining
them
properly.
A
lot
of
them
are
overgrown,
but
that
water
just
kind
of
comes
in
and
washes
away
all
the
soil.
So
you
know
in
in
2018
we
had
record
rain,
but
we
also
had
record
landslides.
B
B
C
Yeah,
no,
I
think
I
think
those
are
all
great
points
so
just
to
build
on
what
rebecca
was
saying.
So
it
is
like
what
what
comes
out
of
efforts
like
the
national
climate
assessment.
Looking
at
the
northeast
region,
for
example,
are,
like
you
know,
projecting
forward
a
general
consensus
that
we
are
already
seeing
changes
in
heavy
rainfall,
especially
so
this
increase.
You
know
increased
intensity
and
duration
of
rainfall
events
and
then
particular
increases
for
those
big
events
that
you
rebecca.
You
were
mentioning,
and
so
that's
what
that's.
C
What
sort
of
found
for
the
region
and
what
we've
experienced
in
recent
years
is
really
seeing
that
within
pittsburgh
as
well.
So
you
mentioned
2018
was
by
far
the
wettest
year
on
record
that
we
had,
and
we
had
a
number
of
very
big
storms
that
that
that
happened
last
or
the
two
summers
ago
in
2018.
2019
was,
I
think,
the
third
wettest
or
third
or
fourth,
widest
year
on
record
as
well.
So
we
had
a
very
wet
year
last
year
that
also
included
a
number
of
big
storms.
C
C
So
for
for
our
city,
those
climate
impacts
of
excess
heat
and
dealing
with
heat
and
dealing
with
very
heavy
rainfall
are
kind
of
the
main
concerns
that
we
need
to
focus
on
for
for
adapting
to
climate
change.
Now
rebecca,
as
you
mentioned,
you
know
that
that
that
implies
a
whole
cis,
like
system
level.
C
Degree
of
change
that's
needed
in
terms
of
thinking
differently,
about
how
we
manage
our
infrastructure
and
then
how
we
manage
the
land
that
you
know
the
city
owns
and
operates
and
elsewhere
to
help
offset
that,
and
that
means
you
know
fairly
significant
investment
to
improve
on
on
landslides.
It
means
rethinking
what
our
parks
and
green
you
know.
C
Our
green
space
can
do
and
can
support,
and
it
means
significant
investments,
also
in
sort
of
the
gray
infrastructure,
the
underground
infrastructure
that
we
have
not
invested
enough
in
over
the
last
decades
to
what
century?
Let's
say
so,
it's
kind
of
all
of
those
things
and
it's
it's
not
going
to
be
cheap.
It's
going
to
be
expensive,
and
I
think
that
we
know
that.
C
But
I
I
it's
very
important
to
note
that
even
with
this
sort
of
dollar
tag
associated
with
investing
in
climate
adaptation,
we
also
know
that
that
is
still
a
better
way
to
go
than
to
wait
for
some
major
climate
disaster
to
happen
and
try
to
pick
up
the
pieces
afterwards.
So
in
other
parts
of
the
country
and
those
that
have
dealt
with
significant
disasters
and
hurricanes,
it's
still
the
most
common
approach
or
the
most
the
sort
of
the
norm
in
the
disaster
world
is
that
we
do
our
investment
in
america.
C
After
the
event
occurs.
We
we
reinvest
and
we
we
pour
money
into
an
area
during
a
recovery
phase,
whereas
it
would,
it
would
have
been
a
lot
less
expensive
to
have
made
investments
pre-disaster
and
and
done
the
mitigation
work
in
advance
to
help
prevent
that
disaster
from
happening
or
or
make
it
or
make
it
less
severe.
When
that
disaster
does
occur,
and
that
continues
to
be
true,
we
are
lucky
in
pittsburgh.
C
We
have
not
had
a
major
climate
disaster
in
a
while,
but
that's
not
to
say
that
we
couldn't
so.
It
suggests
that
there
are
a
lot
of
reasons
and
a
lot
of
good
arguments
for
making
those
investments
really
really
going
bigger
on
systematic
change
so
that
we
can
avoid.
You
know
one
of
a
climate
disaster
and
that
we
can.
We
can
be
prepared
for
the
types
of
changes
that
are
coming
down:
the
road
with
respect
to
heat
and
heavy
rainfall.
A
A
But
it's
such
a
long
learning
curve
in
in
terms
of
creating
awareness
amongst
practitioners,
let
alone
kind
of
engaging
residents,
and
you
know
all
the
system
shifts
that
you're
talking
about
you
know
just
like
the
pandemic
and
that
being
kind
of
one
of
our
preliminary
resilience
assessment.
You
know
items
that
we
identified.
A
What
could
a
major
climate
event
look
like
here
and
and
one
of
the
reason
why
I
asked
that
is
part
of
the
challenge
that
we've
had
in
getting
traction
on
the
adaptation
conversation
I
think
has
been
because
we
are
an
inland
city,
coastal
flooding
or
a
tsunami
or
a
hurricane,
are
are
kind
of
the
newsworthy
events
right.
You
know,
you
know,
you
know
from
your
experience
in
working
with
katrina
that
you
know
both
the
challenge,
but
also
it's.
It's
not
difficult
to
shine
a
light
when
a
cat5
hurricane
comes
through.
C
Sure
I'll
give
two
examples,
so
we
have
not
had
a
major
river
flood
in
pittsburgh
in
quite
some
time
and
that
is
by
design.
So
the
u.s
army
corps
of
engineers
operates
a
series
of
of
lock
and
dam
infrastructure
going
up
our
rivers
to
help
manage
that
and
help
to
prevent
an
uncontrolled
river
flooding
event.
C
You
know
that
infrastructure
is
not
perfect
and
something
could
fail
and
where
that
to
happen,
we
would
see
significant
flooding
in
the
most
developed
areas
of
the
city
right
along
you
know
the
rivers
and
waterways
and
going
into
downtown.
So
I
think
I
I
point
to
that
and
say
we
have
not
experienced
this
for
a
long
time,
but
it's
not
to
say
that
there's
zero
risk
or
that
we
shouldn't
be
worried
about
that.
C
So
that's
sort
of
one
and
it's
I
think
it's
one
worth
noting
of
you-
know
significant
rainfall
and
the
potential
for
for
river
flooding.
The
other
one
and
I've
been
thinking
about.
This,
too,
is
is
a
really
major
heat
wave
heat
waves
are
are
killers
and
they
are
can
be
among
the
most
destructive
sort
of
climate
disasters
that
that
can
be
experienced.
You
know
folks
often
point
to
the
chicago
heat
wave
decades
ago,
but
that's
something
that
that
worries
me
and
and
again
we.
C
I
don't
know
that
folks
imagine
the
pandemic
and
a
heatwave
at
the
same
time,
but
you
know
nevertheless,
that
that
that
combination
and
the
way
that
those
can
exacerbate
one
another,
that
the
tools
to
respond
to
a
heat
wave
and
the
things
we
might
do
for
vulnerable
or
elderly
folks
that
that
don't
have
access
to
air
conditioning.
We
don't
have
those
tools
right
now,
so
that's
really
a
concern.
A
Just
just
a
couple,
quick,
quick
factoids
too
talking
about
the
heat
both
of
those
actually
you
know
in
in
this
past
year,
we've
experienced
both
from
an
infrastructure
side.
So
one
of
the
things
we've
been
able
to
do
with
our
facilities
is
to
sign
up
for
what's
called
the
demand
response
program,
which
is
effectively
an
electricity
curtailment
strategy
on
extreme
heat
or
extreme
cold
days.
A
C
Yes,
yeah,
that's
a
that's
a
really
good
point
and
one
way
in
which
we
we
look
a
little
bit
like
coastal
cities
that
are
dealing
with
sea
level
rise
and
concerns
about
about
that.
But
it's
interesting
that
you
mentioned
that
because
you
can
also
imagine
what
else
would
happen
under
like
a
river
flooding
condition
is:
is
that
outfalls
that
allow
excess
storm
water
into
the
river
may
not
be
able
to
open?
C
And
so
you
then
would
get
the
system
backing
up
as
well
and
more
about
you
know:
sewer
backups
into
people's
basements,
which
is
already
a
chronic
issue
that
we
deal
with
across
the
region,
so
it
it.
I
think
it's
a
that's
a
really
good
point
and
one
that
just
indicates
how
much
this
this
can
cascade
and
build
when
you
face
an
event
like
that.
A
Jordan,
this
is
this:
is
some
fascinating
stuff
we're
coming
up
against
time,
one
one
of
the
things
that
rebecca
and
I
always
like
to
ask
guests
just
before
we
wrap
up
here.
What
are
what
are
some
of
the
things
that
you're
reading
listening
to,
or
watching
these
days
we
just
kind
of
like
to
go
around
the
horn
and
see
what,
if
there's
anything,
interesting,
you're
consuming
and
would
like
to
share
with
folks.
C
Sure,
well,
I
will
note
one
which
seems
very
appropriate
for
this
conversation,
so
in
our
pandemic
netflix
binging
we
we
are
now.
We
finally
started
on
parks
and
recreation,
so
we're
in
season
two
of
parks
and
rec,
which
is
giving
me
a
whole
different
perspective
on
what
it
means
to
be.
You
know
to
work
at
a
city
and
to
you
know
to
be
to
see
agencies.
C
I
I
will
say
I
think
about
you
guys
fairly
often
during
episode
watching,
but
I
we
are
enjoying
that
quite
a
lot.
So
that's
that's
our
light.
I
mean
there's,
there's
so
much
heavy
right
now
that
that
is
our.
That
is
our
light
watching
and
I
I
highly
recommend
parks
and
rec
if
you
haven't
had
a
chance
to
watch
it.
Yet
I
feel,
like
everything
else
I
would
mention
is-
is
much
heavier.
C
You
know
right,
but
you
know
I
I
think
I
wanted
to
start
with
the
the
more
light-hearted
one.
Let's
see
so
I
again
I
I
will
say
that
a
fair
amount
of
our
our
focus
right
now.
Well,
I
should
I
should
say
this.
My
my
reading,
when
I
in
my
off
hours,
is
almost
exclusively
like
science
fiction
and
fantasy,
because
I
I
can't
read
nonfiction
books
when
I'm
going
to
bed.
I
can't
you
know
think
too
much
about
the
things
I
think
about
all
day.
C
C
B
B
C
Grant
I'll
mention
I'll
mention
one
more,
because
I
I'll
do
one
serious
one
so
last
night,
actually
our
our
boys
were
able
to
go
to
the
grandparents
house.
We
are
now
podding
with
the
grandparents
after
a
lot
of
work,
and
this
is
the
first
time
we've.
We've
had
a
a
time
away
from
our
two
kids
since
march,
and
so
what
did
my
wife
and
I
do?
C
A
A
True,
there's
there's!
Maybe
like
five
percent
fabrications
in
there
but
yeah
we
we
both
finished
it
and-
and
I
will
say
at
the
end,
you
know
you're
kind
of
like
all
good
character,
driven
series,
you're
you're
a
little
sad
to
like
see
everybody
go
so
so
we
definitely
the
eyes
welled
up
with
that
and
then
my
summer
read
as
rebecca
knows
a
big
anthony,
bourdain
fan.
So
for
father's
day
my
wife
got
me
kitchen
confidential.
A
So
I'm
about
halfway
through
that
and
you
know
now
looking
for,
like
anthony
tony's
kitchen
gadget
collection,
his
recommendations.
So
I'm
looking
for
a
good
chef's
knife
right
now.
So
but
it's
a
it's
a
terrif.
If
you
like
food,
if
you
like
travel,
it's
it's
a
pretty
great
summer,
read
so
that
that's
my.
A
Read
serious
stuff
all
day,
so
those
are
those
are
kind
of
my
escapes
right
now,
so
terrific!
Well
guys
I
tell
you
what
this
is
always
I
knew
this
would
be
a
great
conversation.
Jordan,
we're
gonna
have
to
have
you
back
soon,
just
to
get
some
updates
and
to
dive
into
love
to
get
into
more
about
some
of
the
stormwater
work
that
you
guys
are
working
on
and
and
and
some
of
those
details
there
that
are
forthcoming.