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From YouTube: The Grant Street Experience: Peter Walker
Description
On this episode of The Grant Street Experience, Grant Ervin and Rebecca Kiernan talk to Peter Walker from Chatham University.
A
A
A
So
Peter,
you
are,
you
are
our
first
kind
of
specimen
if
you
will,
in
terms
of
this
new
experiment
as
we're
recording
remotely,
and
we
also
have
kind
of
build
joy
and
Alex
our
production
team
behind
the
scenes
here
with
us,
so
they're
helping
to
manage
sound
quality
and
make
sure
that
we
keep
on
track.
But
we
want
to
thank
you
for
joining
us
here
today
in
this
this
kind
of
new
world.
Have
you
have
you
been
faring
well.
C
Now
the
weather's
good,
it's
okay,
we've
got
a
bit
of
a
garden
around
us,
so
I
can
get
outside
and
we
keep
chickens
and
I
do
a
lot
of
woodwork,
so
I
get
banished
to
the
woodshed
whenever
I'm
irritating
everybody
in
the
house
right.
So
it's
okay!
You
know
what
amazes
me
its:
how
quick
you
it
becomes
normal
right
if
I
remember
the
first
time
you
went
out
wearing
a
face
mask
in
the
in
the
shop
and
you
felt
like
a
right
idiot
and
now
it's
just
what
you
do
right.
It's
it's.
B
B
A
I
think
mm-hmm
because
they
tend
to
be
light-hearted
just
because
of
the
nature,
I
guess
who
we
are
and
some
of
the
topics
that
we
deal
with.
So
we
don't
want
to
veer
too
far
away
from
that,
but
these
are
serious
times
and
in
serious
topics.
So
we
kind
of
wanted
to
for
listeners
share
some
of
the
you
know:
kind
of
intricacies
of
a
challenge
of
a
pandemic
and
you're
one
of
the
kind
of
principal
advisors
that
we've
had
on
our
resilient
Pittsburgh
project.
So
we
wanted
to
kind
of
start
with
you.
C
So,
as
you
can
see,
I
work
for
Chatham
University,
now
I'm,
the
Dean
of
the
Falk
school
of
sustainability
and
we're
based
up
at
Eden
Hall,
which
is
a
little
bit
north
of
Pittsburgh.
So
everything
we
do
up
here
is
about
how
do
you
build
more
sustainable
societies?
It's
by
renewable
energy,
it's
by
new
forms
of
economics.
It's
about
food
chains,
all
that
stuff
right,
but
most
of
my
life
life
I
worked
in
Disaster
Response
internationally
for
international
NGOs,
the
International
Red
Cross.
C
So
whenever
there
was
a
major
famine
or
a
flood
or
an
epidemic
or
fallout
from
a
war
or
something
like
that,
I'd
be
part
of
the
team.
That
way
now
to
look
at
that
or
to
eventually
evaluate
it.
So
in
some
ways
when
Cobert
struck
for
me
it
was
almost
like.
Oh
it's
just
like
my
old
job
back,
you
know,
I'm
I
am
well
I.
Could
I
fail
myself
going
back
into
those
old
disaster
response?
Behaviors,
you
know:
okay,
we're
not
going
to
get
perfect.
C
You've
got
to
go
with
what
we've
got
it'll
be
different
tomorrow
morning,
but
that's
fine,
that's
just
the
way
we
have
to
respond
and
in
many
ways,
I
think.
What
amazed
me
is
just
how
similar
disasters
and
these
crises
are
around
the
world.
You
know
whether
it's
I
did
a
meningitis
epidemic
in
Ethiopia
and
it
was
all
the
same
stuff.
You
know,
how
do
you
keep
things
clean?
How
do
you
trace
people?
C
C
You
know
to
find
a
country
traumatized
mm,
quite
something,
but
one
of
the
things
that
I
learned
out
of
Rwanda
was:
you
can
rebuild
so
there's
a
little
country
with
a
like
1/8
of
its
population,
machete
to
death,
just
unbelievable
violence,
and
yet
they
have
rebuilt
and
they've
almost
leapfrogged
from
a
peasant
economy
to
a
tech
economy,
and
it
was,
it
was
great
leadership.
It
was
people
who
were
willing
to
take
a
risk
and
said:
look
we
can't.
We
can't
be
much
worse
off
than
we
are
now
I'm
after
this.
C
C
And
you
see
that
in
many
countries
that
I
mean
there's
a
couple
of
ways
of
looking
at
it.
One
is
which
is
sort
of
the
Machiavellian
way
is
when
people
are
frightened.
They
are
calling
at
any
lifeboat.
So
you
can
sort
of
suggest
us
in
a
crisis,
and
people
will
go
for
it.
Now,
that's
a
bit,
you
know
it's,
maybe
not
blue
chip,
but
the
other
way
is.
Is
people
are
willing
to
take
risks?
C
If,
if
the
alternatives,
don't
look
much
good
right,
so
one
of
the
things
I'm
thinking
about
at
the
moment
is:
do
we
really
want
to
go
back
to
having
everything
just
the
way
it
was
in
November
and
December
mm-hmm,
and
so
the
next
time
we
have
a
crisis?
We
have
to
go
through
all
this
again,
I
mean
it
doesn't
really
matter
whether
it's
a
pandemic
or
it's
an
economic
crisis
or
it's
an
energy
crisis.
C
For
me,
there's
a
moment
of
opportunity
now
to
think
about.
How
can
we
use
this
and
to
use
this
opportunity
to
rebuild
if
you
like,
Pittsburgh,
to
rethink
how
our
economy
and
our
society
works?
I
mean
it's
our
city
right
great?
Nobody
says
you
have
to
run
a
city
this
way,
or
that
way
we
can
decide
how
we
want
to
do
it.
It
just
needs
a
it's
Halong
us
to
do
with
will
right
well,.
A
But
to
go
back
for
a
second
there's
kind
of
these
types
of
events,
pandemics
or
whatever
the
shock
is
they
have
a
cycle
to
them
right?
You
know,
there's
sure,
can
you
talk
about
that
ability
mean
there's
that
the
event
itself,
but
then
you
know
what
do
we?
What
should
we
start
to
anticipate
in
terms
of
the?
What
comes
next
yeah.
C
C
I
mean
the
usual
saying
it
lets
forget
things
like
floods,
an
earthquake
which
just
hit
you
BAM,
and
you
know
when
it
hits
but
disasters
that
creep
up
on
you.
The
first
stage
is
usually
with
people
like
you
and
me
and
Rebecca
screaming.
You
know
that
the
sky's
gonna
fall
right.
We're
going
to
have
a
crisis,
and
people
are
looking
out
the
window
and
saying.
C
Crisis
and
that's
what
you
haven't
beginning
of
this
pandemic
right:
it's
it's
really
difficult
to
convince
people
of
a
crisis
unless
they
can
touch
it
unless
they
have
friends
who
are
suffering
unless
they
lose
their
job.
I
mean
you,
we're
not
stupid.
People
want
evidence
and
they
won't
just
believe
it,
because
somebody
in
the
city
says
it's
a
crisis.
So
that's
your
first
stage
right
and
then
it
hits
and
that's
the
stage
of
which
it
wow
we
got
to
act
fast.
C
We've
got
to
close
things
down,
we've
got
to
get
the
protective
gear
out,
it's
it's
all
about.
If
you
like,
the
emergency
decisions
are
taken
quickly.
They
may
not
always
be
the
right
decisions.
You
may
not
have
enough
information,
but
you
go
with
your
best
guess
and
you're,
usually
revising
your
plans
twice
a
day
and
what
you're
really
trying
to
do
and
they're
actually
international
standards
around
this
is
say
what
is
the
essential
stuff
we
have
to
keep
going,
but
people
have
got
to
have
water
they've
got
to
have
food.
C
They've
got
to
have
health
care,
we've
got
to
have
shelter
right.
Those
are
the
things
that
you
absolutely
try
to
keep
going,
you're
interested
just
transport
keep
going
and
maybe
a
little
bit
later.
Well,
what
are
we
going
to
do
about
education?
So
it's
all
that
sort
of
really
important
stuff.
First,
as
you're
doing
that
and
once
you're
sort
of
okay,
nobody
is
going
to.
C
We've
got
the
death
rate
under
control.
Basically,
then,
you've
got
to
start
thinking
about.
How
do
we
get
out
of
this
hole?
Mm-Hmm
right
and
that's
where
we
started.
You
know
here
in
the
city
and
in
Pennsylvania
you
know:
we've
got
our
color
coding.
We've
got
this
idea.
Well,
some
businesses
will
be
allowed
back
and
gradually
you
you
start
to
climb
out
of
this,
this
pit
that
were
in
as
it
were,
and
then
finally,
it's
okay.
Well,
we
don't
particularly
want
to
get
into
this
mess
again.
C
C
We
focus
on
the
immediate
and
we
dismissed
the
rest
in
a
case
like
you,
don't
want
to
get
caught
flat-footed
right,
yeah
exactly
you
know,
you
want
to
get
started
thinking
now
about
what
could
we
change
what's
in
our
power
in
Pittsburgh
to
change
that
will
make
us
more
resilient
for
the
next
crisis
or
the
next
round
of
covet,
because
you
know
if
you
talk
at
most
to
the
epidemiologists.
This
is
not
a
one-off
thing.
A
Coming
yeah
do
what
are
some
of
the
things
and
Rebecca
be
interested
in
your?
You
know
chimed
in
on
this,
because
you
know
you've
done
a
lot
of
the
modeling,
but
what
are
some
of
the
things
that
you
guys
have
seen
not
so
much
that
it
surprised
you
but
like
understanding
like
the
stressors
that
are
impacting
a
city
like
Pittsburgh?
A
What
are
some
of
the
things
that
have
kind
of
become
more
apparent
or
come
front-and-center
with
regards
to
being
exposed
through
this
crisis
that
you
know
effectively
like
we,
like,
you
said,
like
we've
known
through
kind
of
research
in
community
conversations
and
a
lot
of
the
the
work
that
folks
have
done
around
the
city
for
a
long
time.
Where
are
weak
spots
are,
but
what
are
some
of
the
things
that
are
really
kind
of
percolated
to
the
top?
A
C
I
know
what
you
think
Rebecca,
but
you
know
what
I've
seen
is
again.
You
see
in
almost
every
disaster.
Put
it
bluntly:
the
rich
get
richer
and
the
poor
get
poorer.
Those
who
are
already
vulnerable
suffer
most.
So
if
we
say
where
we
had
most
infection,
we've
had
the
highest
death
rates.
It's
in
the
poorer
communities
that
are
less
access
to
health
care.
People
already
vulnerable
right.
If
your
immune
system
is
already
weak,
if
you
don't
have
good
access
to
health
care-
and
you
don't.
B
C
Good
access
to
nutrition,
of
course,
you're
going
to
suffer
more
so
I
think
that's
the
first
thing
that
we
we
really
understand
that
those
underlying
issues
of
inequity
in
the
city
just
fuel
these
crises,
and
then
there
are
the
hidden
things
that
we
we
should
have
known.
We
don't
always
think
about
so
when
you
ask
people
to
shelter
at
home,
you've
sort
of
got
this
assumption
that
home
is
safe.
C
Well,
what
happens
to
women
who
are
suffering
from
domestic
abuse,
they're
now
stuck
with
that
person,
who's
doing
their
boobs
right
or
kids
who
have
been
in
families
that
can't
cope.
So
there
are
all
sorts
of
little
things
start
coming
out
the
woodwork.
You
know
black
swans
as
they
say
things
you
didn't
know
existed
until
you
see
it
right
in
front
of
you
and
then
you've
got
a
cope
with
it.
Yeah
yeah!
What's
your
take
on
it?
So.
B
When
we
first
did
our
our
resilience
strategy
work,
we
identified
our
top
shocks
and
stresses-
and
this
was
through
you
know-
significant
research
and
then
a
lot
of
community
engagement
and
outreach
and
focus
groups,
but
I
think
it's.
It's
been
really
interesting
for
me
to
kind
of
go
back
and
see
what
we
had
identified
and
you
can
see
that
there
is
that
disease
outbreak
and
pest
infestation
was
kind
of
like
a
little
blip
yeah.
C
B
You
know
our
predictions
from
2015,
this
started
in
2015
and
what
we
had
been
talking
about
you
know
one
of
the
major
themes
throughout
resilience
planning
is.
That
stress
is
where
a
more
stressful
City.
As
you
know,
Pittsburgh
we
identified
so
you
know
we
have
economic
and
racial
inequity
was
kind
of
the
the
largest
issue
that
we
came
up
with
aging
infrastructure,
environmental
degradation,
lack
of
affordable
housing,
mobility
and
transportation,
access,
food
insecurity
and
what
happens
in
oh
and
then
fragmentation
was
another
one
that
we
kind
of
added
later
as
a
major
stressor.
B
So
having
so
many
different
municipalities,
130
in
Allegheny
County,
you
know
3,500
nonprofit
organizations
that
operate
within
the
city
of
Pittsburgh,
and
you
know
just
some
of
some
of
that
regional
fragmentation,
kind
of
doesn't
necessarily
lit.
It
makes
it
more
complicated
to
get
the
services
that
that
residents
need
to
those
residents
right
because
it
has
to
filter
through.
A
B
B
All
your
stresses
are
then
exacerbated,
and
you
can
I
mean
we
can
kind
of
see
where
those
issues
are
playing
out.
So
food
and
security
obviously
was
a
really
big
one:
economic
and
racial
inequity.
That's
that's
a
you
know,
a
huge
one.
That's
you
know.
Those
disparities
are
really
coming
out
right
now,
but
then
also,
you
know,
afford
the
housing
issue.
So
we've
been
talking
a
lot
about
this
lately.
There's
an
issue
of
energy
poverty
in
Pittsburgh.
So
you
know
a
study
came
out
a
few
years
ago.
B
That
Pittsburgh
is
the
sixth
worst
city
for
energy
burden,
so
that's
the
edge
of
your
income
that
you're
paying
towards
your
utility
bills
and
as
more
people
spend
time
at
home
because
our
houses
are
so
leaky.
But
you
know
those
those
bills
are
going
up
because
you're
not
you're,
not
spending
time
outside
of
the
home,
otherwise,
so
a
lot
of
those
housing
issues,
the
aging
housing
stock.
You
know
poor
environmental
quality
within
your
house.
Those
are
really
those
are
really
huge
issues
right
now.
You.
C
Know
one
of
the
things
you
don't
well,
you've
got
it
under
infrastructure,
but
one
of
the
things
that
struck
me
as
we
shifted
our
university
from
you
know.
Teaching
students
in
front
of
us
teaching
online
is
is
internet
poverty
yeah.
You
know
that
we've
got,
and
this
is
way
worse
for
kids,
who
don't
get
to
university
for
kids
in
high
school.
You
know
suddenly,
but
we're
all
trying
to
teach
online
and
I
I
would
make
a
fair
bet
that
we
will
see
online.
A
A
C
Yeah,
it's
not
come
well.
Many
of
these
things
aren't
technically
complicated.
It's
you
know,
where's.
What's
the
political
route
that'll
allow
us
to
get,
there
pays
for
what
you
know
and
how
do
we?
How
do
we
pay
for
it
and
in
many
ways
it's
a
mindset?
Do
we
see
this
as
a
service?
People
have
a
right
to
or
a
product
people
have
to
afford
right
right.
So
is
this
like
education,
or
is
this
like
a
motor
car,
yeah
yeah.
B
A
I
I
think
that's
one
of
the
fascinating
things.
I
mean
goes
back
to
kind
of
one
of
your
things.
You
were
saying
in
the
opening
right,
like
that.
You
know
the
issues
of
kind
of
wealth
and
how
wealth
can
alleviate
you
from
a
lot
of
the
the
potent
risks
that
are
out
there
in
a
situation
like
this
yeah,
which,
what's
your
take,
though
I
mean-
and
this
is
kind
of
the
interplay
this
struggle
with
that
with.
A
Like
the
you
know,
the
transactional
versus
the
transformational
responses
right,
like
we've,
take
the
broadband
internet
and
I'd
be
curious
on
your
take
with
this
you've,
seen
a
lot
of
NGOs
and
organizations
step
to
the
forefront
to
help
kids
with
you
know
whether
it's
a
hot
spot
or
a
laptop
to
help
provide
that
I
would
call
that
kind
of
a
transactional
yeah.
But
what
does
it
take?
You
know
using
kind
of
your
experience
and
whether
it's
you
know
Rwanda
or
other
situations
to
get
to
the
transformational.
A
C
C
To
have
internet
access
and
the
corporation's
have
got
to
build
that
into
their
development
plans.
So
if
I
was
running,
Verizon
or
AT&T
I
was
saying:
okay,
who's,
gun
opinion
and
where's
the
legislation
that's
around.
That
is
there
anything
we
can
do
at
the
city
level
to
encourage
the
expansion
of
broadband
into
areas
that
presently
don't
have
it.
It
may
be
what
we
won't
get
it
unless
we
of
God
people
who
wanted
lobbying
for
it,
a
city,
that's
administration,
that's
willing
and
able
to
create
the
environment
that
facilitates
it
and
that's
what
you
know.
C
C
Right,
it's
just
a
matter
of
finding
a
way
of
doing
it,
and
it's
for
me
it's
one
of
the
obvious
things
coming
out
of
this
crisis.
If
you
had
to
say,
let's
pick
a
few
things
which
we
as
a
community
of
people,
businesses
and
governance
can
do
in
Pittsburgh
to
show
that
we're
serious
mm-hmm
making
our
city
more
resilient.
C
A
A
It's
it
creates
kind
of
a
win,
win,
win,
win
Rebecca,
you
just
brought
up
food
and
that's
the
other
one
that
I
think
is
you
know
in
our
space
I
can't
I
can't
call
it
shocking
it
and
maybe
sad
to
say
that,
because
we've
understood
these
vulnerable
vulnerabilities.
But
if
you
talk
to
you
know,
I
talk
to
my
neighbors
I
mean
this
is
one
of
the
things
that
they
can't
believe.
A
You
know
some
of
the
scales
of
the
challenges
you
guys
at
Chatham
have
had
a
lot
of
great
experience
with
with
food
systems
and
understanding
kind
of
you
know
one
of
the
premises
of
the
Folk
School
right,
yeah
edan,
Hawk
campus.
What
are
some
of
the
things
that,
in
you
know,
you
know
bow
scene
is
like?
Oh,
my
god,
I
can't
believe
this
is
happening,
but
also,
how
do
you
start
to
correct
some
of
those
yeah.
A
A
One
of
the
pieces
of
it
that
the
research
that
Ed
Rubin
over
pepper,
Carnegie,
Mellon's
tapper
school,
we
had
a
class
with
them,
and
the
majority
of
food
comes
from
outside
of
Allegheny
County
and
outside
of
Pennsylvania.
Most
part
comes
from
California.
Most
of
it
comes
from
California,
most
of
the
veg
anyway,
most
of
the
veg
comes
from
California.
Mexico
is
actually
also
a
large
importer,
but
the
average
vehicle
miles
traveled
from
food,
and
this
is
distribution
hubs.
Yep
there's
over
800
miles.
C
Got
chickens
as
well,
and
so
then
I
can
tell
you
when
you're
baking,
that's
so
different,
but
here's
the
thing
there
is
a
reason
that
our
food
comes
from
so
far
away
and
that's
because
of
economies
of
scale,
but
somewhere
like
Central
Valley
in
California,
which
is
perfect
for
growing
salad
right
and
you
can
have
these
vast
barns,
which
are
essentially
run
by
machines.
Basically,
it's
cheaper
to
produce
food
there
and
ship
it
than
it
is
to
produce
it
locally
right.
C
So
the
economies
of
scale
the
same
with
pigs,
you
know,
and
but
we've
got
these
vast
pig
farms
around
the
country
right,
which
then
go
to
the
slaughterhouses.
Slaughterhouses
fly
to
us.
It's
an
economy
of
scale,
the
thing
about
those
systems,
and
if
you
like
these,
they
give
us
cheap
food
yeah
right,
but
the
downside
is
they're
not
very
resilient.
So
we're
seeing
this
with
the
the
pig
industry
at
the
moment,
slaughterhouses
have
become
one
of
the
main
places
for
spreading
Kovic.
Many
of
them
are
shutting
down.
C
There
are
pig
farms
across
America
who
are
having
to
euthanize
thousands
and
thousands
of
pigs
because
they
can't
get
them
to
the
slaughterhouse,
because
the
system
does
break
down.
If
you're
gonna
make
a
more
robust
system,
there's
essentially
two
ways
of
doing
it.
One
is
to
put
in
lots
of
fail-safes
and
alternatives
and
in
many
ways
that's
why
a
military
systems
are
robust,
because
they've
got
backups
and
backups
and
backups
it's
more
expensive
right.
C
It
will
give
you
a
more
resilient
system,
but
it's
more
expensive.
The
other
way
is
to
have
less
points
of
failure
in
your
system.
That
really
means
switching
in
a
sense
back
to
local
economies,
and
that's
one
of
the
things
that
I
think
we
should
be
pretty
interested
in
Pittsburgh,
because
we
are
in
a
way
we're
lucky.
We
still
have
family
farms,
I
mean
I'm.
C
Looking
I'm
18
miles
north
of
Pittsburgh
I'm,
looking
at
my
window
and
I
can
see
two
family
farms
from
here,
one
of
which
is
still
a
tradition,
one
of
which
is
converted
to
organic
farming.
That's
allowed
them
to
make
a
living
where
ten
years
ago
they
were
just
going
downhill
and
the
land
was
going
to
go
to
property
developers.
So
a
Chatham
one
of
the
things
we've
been
looking
at
is:
how
can
you
encourage
the
the
building
of
local
food
economies?
C
C
Restaurants
get
better
assurance
of
the
quality
of
their
food
because
they
can
actually
go
and
see
where
it's
been
grown,
but
it's
a
different
way
of
doing
business
right
and
it
may
mean
the
food
is
slightly
more
expensive.
Oh,
we
forget
how
cheap
our
food
is.
If
you
go
back
and
look
at
the
percent,
your
parents,
your
grandparents
spent
the
percentage
of
their
income
on
food,
it's
considerably
more
than
we
spend
interesting.
A
C
I
think
so
it's
that
people
who
do
sustainability
a
lot
of
us
get
terribly
obsessed
by
systems.
You
know
we're
always
looking
for
these
connections
between
everything
and
figuring
out
where
the
weak
links
and
how
can
we
reinforce
things
and
resilient
systems
is
really
what
cities
of
good
cities
are
built
on.
You
don't
want
systems
that
collapse
at
the
first
shock.
You
want
systems
that
are
backups
that
are
gone
alternatives
that
a
robust
right,
but,
like
everything,
it's
not
perfect.
C
There
are
trade-offs,
they
may
cost
a
little
bit
more
or
they
may
cost
more
up
front.
Like
think
about
renewable
energy.
Okay,
being
able
to
draw
energy
from
the
Sun
in
your
backyard
is
more
resilient
than
having
to
rely
upon
three
or
four
companies
to
dig
the
coal
transport.
It
burn
it
supply
it
to
you,
okay,
but
you
got
to
pay
a
bit
more
upfront.
A
A
It's
amazing
to
see
that
you
know
that
those
systems
and
how
they
the
interplay
mean.
The
other
thing
that
we
found
in
in
the
CMU
research
with
dr.
Rubin
too,
is
the
amount
of
emissions
that
come
from
local
trips.
I
mean
gathering
food,
which
has
been
another
part,
and
you
know
our
colleague
Shelly
Danko
days.
Our
policy
guru
I
call
her.
A
I
think
the
two
things
that
you
see
is
you
see
more
bulk,
buying
anecdotally
per
our
household,
but
also
I.
Think
one
of
the
things
that
the
CMU
report
also
kind
of
leads
to
is
this
idea
of
you
know
effectively:
delivery
right,
okay,
the
online
portion
like
education,
there's
a
certain
kind
of
economy
of
scale
able
to
reduce
this
by
directing
either
reducing
your
trip
or
having
it
delivered,
which
has
it
the
kind
of
value
benefits
to
it.
B
Yeah
I
mean
as
someone
that
has
worked
in
the
food
industry
in
the
past
and
in
particular,
as
a
checkout
at
a
grocery
store.
I.
Think
it's
really
important
not
to
lose
sight
of
the
fact
that
a
lot
of
people
get
their
social
interaction
by
going
to
the
grocery
store.
We
really
I
think
need
to
be.
At
least
conscious
of
you
know
the
fact
that
all
those
social
connections
are
because
people
can't
just
go
to
the
grocery
store
and
schmooze
with
the
person
that's
working.
It's.
C
C
No,
when
I
was
a
kid,
I
was
brought
up
in
Ireland,
not
in
Pennsylvania
and
I
remind
me
to
put
in
a
weekly
order
with
the
grocer
in
the
local
town
and
they
would
deliver
yeah
and
in
many
ways
it
was
like
forerunner
of
Amazon
before
anything
yeah,
and
so
the
grocery
store.
Wasn't
someone
you
even
thought
about
socializing.
There
are
other
areas
you
used,
but
it
just
shows
that
none
of
these
are
simple
well,
in
the
sense,
the
problem
is
simple,
but
the
solutions
throw
up
lots
of
little
complications
as
you
go
along
it.
C
It's
probably
why
it's
such
an
exciting
field
to
work
in,
because
it's
it's
nothing
is
obvious.
You
find
a
solution
and
anything
go,
but
it
also
causes
this
and
then
there's
another
little
bit
concerning
you.
It's
like
you
know
we're
like
every
University
in
Pittsburgh
now
struggling
to
think
what
the
heck
do.
We
do
come
forward.
A
That's
actually
kind
of
leads
into
one
of
my
next
questions.
I
and
I
go
back
to
remark
about
black
swans,
one
of
the
things
that
when
we
did,
the
community
outreach
for
the
one
Pittsburgh
plan
I,
you
know
having
grown
up
here
and
in
southwestern
Pennsylvania
I
always
have
kind
of
the
the
in
steel
and
Industry
kind
of
in
my
mindset,
and
the
idea
of
a
major
economic
collapse
was
something
that
back
in
2000
was
at
2015.
We
did
a
lot
of
the
engagement
Rebecca,
wasn't
top
of
people's
minds.
A
Look
at
what
happens
if
a
major
industry
were
to
fail,
or
in
particular
you
know
the
thought
about
kind
of
the
educational
and
medical
institutions
and
how
they
play
such
a
prominent
role,
you're
kind
of
at
the
epicenter.
That
I
mean.
Could
you
talk
about?
You
know
what
some
of
the
thinking
that's
happening
at
an
education
institution
and
some
of
those
challenges
and
both
how
you're
preparing
for
know
the
the
near-term
as
well
as
kind
of
the
long-term.
C
I
mean
one
of
the
things
it
opened
my
eyes
to
was
just
how
big
education
is
in
Pittsburgh
and
we've
got
in
the
Greater
Pittsburgh
area.
We've
got
160,000
students,
we,
the
education
sector,
probably
puts
about
nine
billion
dollars
a
year
into
the
local
economy,
and
there
are
places
around
Pittsburgh.
Where
students,
you
know,
University
and
college
students
make
up
anything
from
14
to
28
percent
of
the
population.
So
this
is.
This
is
a
big
deal
right,
and
so
what
would
most
universities
are
planning
now,
there's
really
two
scenarios.
C
The
worst
case
is
we
do
what
we're
doing
at
present,
which
is
we
offer
classes
online.
We
come
up
with
interesting
ways
of
doing
labs.
So
with
with
a
lot
of
our
ecology,
labs
and
biology,
labs,
we've
been
preparing
middle,
take
home
kits
and
having
those
posted
to
students,
you
can
buy
a
reasonably
good
microscope
now
for
like
twenty
dollars
right
on
Amazon,
so
it's
sort
of
affordable.
You
can
give
a
microscope
it'll
dissection
kit.
C
Do
it
at
home
that
sort
of
thing,
instead
of
all
having
a
field
trip
together,
go
find
your
nearest
bit
of
open
ground
and
identify
plants
there
you
know
so
there
are.
There
are
ways
in
which
you
can
provide
an
online
education
supplemented,
but
what
it
doesn't
give
you-
and
this
is
what
really
worries
me
is
universities,
not
just
about
learning
stuff
right.
You
don't
just
go
there
to
learn
biology
or
to
learn
physics
or
accounting
in
you.
Go
there
to
learn
how
to
become
a
good
citizen
and
in
a
democracy.
C
So
how
do
I
have
a
disagreement
without
losing
my
cool?
How
do
I
work
in
a
team?
How
do
I
make
my
case
but
understand
sometimes
I,
get
it
wrong
and
I've
got
to
admit
it.
You
know
all
these
skills
are
skills.
You
tend
to
learn
at
University
and
they
make
you
a
good
citizen,
and
it
does
worry
me
that
if
we
have
to
go
to
online
for
a
length
of
time,
kids
are
really
gonna
miss
out
on
man.
That's
a
shame
so.
C
C
So
probably
what
you
would
do
is
get
the
students
to
clean
down
their
desk
area
before
the
class
clean
it
down
after
the
class
as
well
as
having
you
know
a
system
of
cleaning,
then
it
throws
of
all
sorts
of
things.
So
if
you
have
the
number
of
people
in
a
classroom,
will
you
put
the
other
students
right
so
nobody's
got?
You
know,
150
percent
spare
room
capacity.
C
You
have
a
finite
open
space
to
work
with
yeah
right.
So
you
start
think.
Well,
one
of
the
things
we
might
do
is
one
class
you'll
have
it
on
the
ground
with
the
teacher
and
then
the
next
one
you'll
be
online
you'll,
be
using
zoom
to
hear
the
lecture
and
then
you'll
flip
right.
So
the
classroom
gets.
You
only
have
every
other
week,
you're
in
the
classroom
as
it
were
and
other
ways
to
go
to
shifts
that's
how
factories
cope
with
not
having
enough
space.
C
So
maybe
you
start
your
morning
shift
at
7
o'clock
and
run
till
3:00,
and
then
you
have
another
shift,
but
if
you
do
that,
just
double
the
number
of
faculty,
so
it's
it.
It
really
is
interesting
at
pans
out
the
the
thing
I
think
many
universities
are
worrying
about.
Is
you
gotta
understand,
apart
from
the
really
big
universities,
most
universities
almost
operate
on
on
cashflow,
money
and
money
out,
there's
Bo
little
reserves,
budgets,
yeah
and
so
any
fall
in
the
immediate
cash
flow.
It
is
a
real
issue.
C
C
A
The
issue
I
remember
seeing
was
it
peachy
the
Pittsburgh
Coalition
for
higher
education
I
think
they
put
together
room
information.
You
know
this
is
almost
20%
of
the
GDP
of
the
city.
Is
you
know
the
50-plus,
colleges
and
universities?
You
know
throughout
the
region?
That's
not
just
Pitt
and
Carnegie
Mellon
and
Chatham
and
Duquesne
big
ones
like
that.
But
you
also
have
you
know
smaller
post-secondary
and
forms
of
Education
that
are
also
yeah.
C
You
got
training
colleges,
you've
got
for-profit
universities,
it's
you
know,
as
you
said,
it's
about
50
across
the
region,
so
it's
a
big
sector
of
the
population,
and
you
know
if
you
project
this
out
when
we're
already
seeing
this
with
the
you
know,
the
last
two
or
three
years
we
have
seen
some
of
the
smaller
liberal
arts
colleges
having
to
close
already
economically
and
I,
think
you'll
see
an
acceleration
in
that
trend.
It's
you
know
it's
an
interesting
conundrum.
B
C
C
It
was
right
really,
but
education
doesn't
get
delivered
like
that,
because
education,
it
sense,
like
health
care,
it's
very
much.
Face-To-Face
mm-hmm,
so
80
to
90
percent
of
the
cost
of
running
in
university
is
in
salaries
and
if
you
double
the
number
of
students-
and
you
want
to
keep
the
fast
sizes
down,
you
have
to
double
the
number
of
faculty.
So
you
double
your
costs
right.
C
A
C
Think
so
I
mean
many
would
say
it
may
be
opportunities
the
wrong
term,
but
it's
something
we're
going
to
have
to
do
a
necessity.
Yeah,
it's
a
necessity,
I
think
so.
Online
education
done
well
right.
That
doesn't
just
mean
like
we're
doing
now.
You
know
basically
a
long
talk
on
a
screen
but
where
you've
really
changed
your
material,
so
it's
delivered
in
smaller
time
chunks,
a
lot
of
feedback,
a
lot
of
tracking
and
what
students
that
that
can
deliver
content
really
well
yeah.
A
A
case
is
there
a
case
to,
and
we've
got
a
few
minutes
here
before,
we'll
have
to
wrap
up,
but
is
there
a
case
where
kind
of
two-part
question
like
what
are
the
decision
points
for
kind
of
reopening?
You
know
kind
of
the
you
know
the
Chatham's
taking
or
some
of
the
other
colleges,
universities
in
the
region,
but
that
leads.
My
second
part
of
the
question
is:
is
there
opportunities
for
inner
inner
institution
collaboration
like?
A
C
The
way
you
reopen
I
I
think
every
University's
following
the
governor's
sort
of
traffic
light
system
and
I,
don't
see
universities
opening
on
the
ground
until
we
hit
green
and
almost
certainly
all
of
them
are
going
to
be
doing
what
Chatham
is
likely
to
be
doing
and
opening,
but
the
social
distancing-
and
you
know
the
peachy
president
says
these-
are
the
sort
of
half
dozen
major
universities
in
Pittsburgh
they've
been
talking
every
week.
They
have
at
least
once
a
week
phone
conference
how
they
move
forward
and
they're
all
coming
up
with
fairly
similar
plans.
C
C
What's
going
to
be
interesting
is
how
we
implement
this
new
style
of
education.
So
say:
everybody's
got
to
wear,
face,
masks.
We
need
to
do
regular
temperature
checks,
so
we
can
spot
when
somebody's
temperature's
going
to
go
up
will
if
somebody
gets
ill,
we
need
to
be
do
contact
tracing
we're
gonna
have
to
do
social
distancing.
So
all
these
things
for
me,
what
I'm
interested
in
is:
how
can
we
do
that
and
make
that
an
educational
opportunity
University,
so
the
easy
way
to
do
it
is
to
impose
it
to
save
thou
shalt.
C
Do
a
B
and
C
right
now,
I
can
vaguely
remember,
being
a
teenager
and
that
I
know
exactly
what
I
would
have
done
when
people
tell
me.
You
know
right,
of
course,
I'm
not
gonna.
Do
it
right,
I'm,
gonna
bail,
so
what
I'm
and
just
think
we're
gonna
try
and
do
is
how
do
how
do
we
get
away
that
students
can
get
involved
in
this
okay,
so
the
temperature
checking?
C
Maybe
it
should
be
somebody
in
the
class
who's
responsible
and
they
decide
who's
responsible
for
checking
temperatures
that
day
or
that
week,
and
maybe
that
data
we
can
be
gathering?
We
can
be
using
that
in
our
lessons
right,
the
social
distancing,
okay,
let's
come
up
with
some
creative
ways
of
signing
that
around
campus
face
masks,
I
mean
I.
I
am
I'm
just
waiting
for
the
first
sort
of
fashion
catwalk
experience
of
face
masks
right
because
they're
now
the
must-have
accessory
right,
okay,
I
know
I,
don't
do
fashion.
C
C
Because
in
a
sense-
and
we
did
this
at
the
end
of
last
semester-
students
were
saying
when
we
talk
about
sustainability,
we
talk
about
building
in
resilience.
We
talk
about
the
need
to
be
flexible
and
adaptable,
and
to
understand
that
you
know
you
often
you
you
won't
know
what
the
crisis
is
until
it
hits
you
and
then
you've
got
to
think
in
systems
to
cope
with
it.
C
So
we
had
them
studying
the
curve
aid
crisis
and
what
was
going
on
in
their
community
as
part
of
their
education,
as
that,
as
the
semester
was
ending
and
I,
I
guess,
I
just
think
it's
part
of
our
job
universities
to
almost
think
of
everything.
You
know
where's
the
learning
moment
in
this
lets.
You
know
how
can
I
convert
this
from
being
a
pain
in
the
neck
to
something?
That's
maybe,
if
not
exciting,
at
least
tolerable
yeah
do.
B
You
think
that
strategy
to
for
I
mean
so
universities
only
have
so
much
control
over
soda
there
on
campus
right
so
I
mean
just
thinking
about
how
many
students
potentially
live,
maybe
not
at
Chatham
but
live
off-campus
yeah
frat
parties,
for
example.
Do
you
think
that
engaging
them
upfront
on
campus
will
help
to
permeate?
You
know
into
life
off
campus
I,
guess,
I.
Think.
C
It
will-
and
you
know
like
even
if
I
didn't
know
whether
it
did
or
did
not
work.
I
would
say
we
have
a
responsibility
to
do
it
anyway,
mm-hmm
right,
because
it's
a
due
diligence
thing
right.
You
know.
If
we,
if
we
are
saying
we
have
to
model
what
we
expect
our
students
to
do,
and
that
includes
not
having
parties
every
weekend
or
whatever
we.
You
know
we
have
to
have
those
messages
out
loud
and
clear,
and
a
year
I
also
just
think
we
you
know,
kids
are
invented.
C
A
Look
at
like
the
lead:
well,
maybe
one
less
final
question
and
we
can
use
what's
remaining
in
your
brain.
There
is
there's
been
a
lot
of
talk
about.
You
know
the
the
the
Kovac
crisis
presents
this.
The
systemic
opportunity
I
mean
I,
saw
something
the
other
day
about.
You
know
the
a
call
for
a
similar
just
a
building.
His
last
piece
of
the
conversation
like
the
Civilian
Conservation
Corps
that
was
created
in
the
the
Great
Depression
and
ya.
C
A
C
Well,
I
think
there
are
two
and
these
are
things
that
I'm
already
seeing
other
countries
focus
on.
So
if
you
watch
those
countries
in
Europe
that
are
coming
out
or
think
they're
coming
out
of
this
crisis
now
there
is
an
awful
lot
of
talk
of
this
is
the
opportunity
to
rework
our
economy,
to
a
more
greener
economy,
to
look
at
Kanade
moving
more
rapidly
to
renewable
energy,
because
nobody
argues
that
we
needed
at
some
point.
It's
just
mathematics.
C
Oil
will
run
out
it's
just
a
matter
of
when
right
and
how
much
profit
you
need
to
get
out
of
it
before
you
abandon
it.
So
I
think
that's
one
trend,
we'll
see
the
other
thing
that
I
think
has
come
out
in
every
country
and
and
more
so
in
the
States
is
most
developed
countries.
We
thought
we
had
health
systems
and
we
don't.
We've
got
pockets
that
don't
join
up
and
I.
Think
that's.
The
one
thing
of
this
crisis
has
really
shown.
Is
that
we're
just
not
doing
joined-up
writing
in
our
healthcare?
A
Well,
we
appreciate
that
your
thoughts,
Peter
and
the
guidance
that
you
provide
us.
This
is
an
absolutely
terrific
I
want
to
thank
Rebecca
Kiernan
our
principal
resilience
planner
and
build
joy
and
Alex
production
team.
This
has
been
the
Ovid
at
first
Kovan
episode
of
the
grant
street
experience
more
to
come
in
the
next
coming
days.
We
have
some
great
guests
on
cue
to
help
kind
of
continue.
This
conversation,
thank
you
for
listening
in
and
Peter
once
again,
thanks
for
joining
us
today,
no.