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From YouTube: Athens City Council Meeting 07-01-08
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B
Good
evening,
I'd
like
to
welcome
everyone
who
has
joined
Athens,
City
Council,
to
view
and
listen
to
a
presentation
by
Paul
fen,
renewable
energy
and
local
and
energy
independence-
CEO,
it's
our
great
fortune
to
have
so
many
people
here
that
we
will
need
additional
chairs
and
we
may
be
getting
those
shortly
and
we
will
be
rebroadcasting
this
on
the
cable
channel
and
the
government
channel.
At
this
point,
though,
my
for
three
other
council
members
all
would
like
to
ask
you
to
join
us
and
a
round
of
applause.
B
C
D
You
just
got
married
a
few
days
ago
and
the
message
he'd
like
me
to
read
with
people
attending
this
event
tonight
said
I
would
like
to
sincerely
thank
Gary
Hauser
for
inviting
mr.
Fenn
to
Athens
and
for
his
important
work
on
environmental
issues
over
the
years.
I
would
also
like
to
thank
mr.
Paul
Finn
for
bringing
his
expertise
and
knowledge
on
green
energy
to
Athens
I
hope
we
can
work
together
in
the
near
future.
Also
I
give
my
thanks
to
Nancy
bang
for
helping
to
plan
and
facilitate
this
meeting.
D
D
We
have
a
moral
responsibility
to
act
at
the
local
level
to
begin
a
serious
effort
to
reduce
the
environmental
impact
of
our
own
energy
consumption.
In
a
bottom-up
approach
to
change
course,
our
community
can
be
at
the
forefront
of
this
emerging
concept
of
local
solutions
to
global
climate
change.
We
cannot
make
the
mistake
of
under
estimating
the
urgency
of
the
situation.
D
B
You
very
much
and
we
would
now
like
to
proceed
with
a
presentation
of
PowerPoint
from
mr.
fen,
and
then
we
will
have
questions.
We
will
probably
try
to
hold
you
to
three
minutes
when
you
ask
your
question,
so
mr.
Fenner
has
time
to
answer.
We've
had
experience
with
this
before.
Sometimes
people
talk
more
than
the
answer
requires,
so
I've
done
Walmart,
so
I
get
Thank.
E
You
Nancy-
and
that
was
the
council
mr.
mayor
pleasure,
to
be
here
great
to
be
in
Ohio
I,
come
from
San
Francisco
and
have
not
really
worked
in
Ohio
since
helping
the
legislature
draft
the
1999
law
that
authorized
community
choice
aggregation
here
in
Ohio,
in
conjunction
with
a
number
of
groups,
including
Citizen
Action,
there's
always
at
a
distance
on
conference,
calls
and
emails,
and
so
it's
very
nice
to
be
here.
I'm
pressed
with
how
lovely
the
state
is
really
I
thought.
E
E
Next
Kari,
please
I'm
going
to
start
out
with
with
bad
news.
It's
pretty
bad.
The
there
is
a
growing
pessimism
among
scientists
observing
the
phenomenon
of
climate
change.
Those
in
the
front
lines
are
watching
the
icebergs,
who
are
counting
the
the
co2
in
the
ice
who
are
watching
the
rate
of
the
thaw.
E
Among
the
scientists,
there
is
a
growing
conviction
that
it
is
too
late
to
stop
the
the
changes
taking
place.
You
may
have
read
this
that
it's
been
forecasted
this
summer
will
be
the
first
summer
the
North
Pole
completely
melts
into
water
for
the
first
time,
probably
in
some
20,000
years.
The
last
time
it
melted
was
a
was
a
beginning
of
climate
crisis
that
climate
collapse
and
obviously
the
evidence
that's
occurred,
is
is
devastating,
and
yet
the
effects
are
not
felt
locally
until
it's
too
late.
E
It's
one
of
the
kind
of
psychological
problems
with
climate
change
is
that
the
effects
aren't
felt
locally
until
it's
too
late
to
do
anything
about
it
and
it
really
tests
the
in
a
sense,
basic
principles
of
the
Enlightenment,
to
the
notion
that
democracies
can
make
rational
decisions
in
response
to
to
reasoned
knowledge
of
what's
happening
rather
than
immediate
emotional
experience.
We
have
an
observed
phenomenon
is
undeniable,
and
yet
the
question
is
at
what
point
will
we
get
serious
about
this
event?
E
And
so
there
is
increasingly
among
scientists
who
see
a
lack
of
seriousness
and
the
political
debate,
a
growing
desperation,
and
that
desperation
has
led
many
of
them
to
conclude
that
nuclear
power
is
the
only
solution
to
the
crisis
that
one
of
the
main
messages
I
want
to
convey
today
is
that
that
desperation
is
ill-founded.
That
there
are,
there
is
an
opportunity
today
to
take
meaningful
action
on
climate
change,
doesn't
mean
we
can
stop.
What's
already
happened,
it
doesn't
mean
that
we
can.
E
We
can
prevent
a
catastrophe
which
is
obviously
happening
already,
but
it
does
mean
that
we
can
eliminate
the
cause
of
climate
change.
We
can
circumscribe
the
event.
We
can
respond
to
this
event
and
not
merely
stand
by
and
watch
it
happen
or
resort
to
that.
The
phenomenon
of
nuclear
power,
please
Caroline
now
part
of
the
pessimism-
is
that
even
you'd
and
in
the
United
States,
even
the
leaders
are
not
leading
and
it's
bad,
more
bad
news,
I'm,
afraid
I
have
to
add
to
bad
news,
which
is
California.
E
The
state
from
which
I
come
is
known
for
having
taken
first
action
on
carbon
assembly
bill
32,
set
in
place
of
greenhouse
gas
reduction
targets
for
the
state.
The
state
was
also
first
to
adopt
a
renewable
portfolio
standard
and
his
regard
as
a
leader
as
a
kind
of
model
for
other
states
in
the
national
discourse,
and
yet
a
look
at
California
as
a
state
is
disappointing.
E
In
fact,
the
utilities
are
not
complying
with
the
renewable
portfolio
standard
law
and
they
have
effectively
forced
the
hand
of
state
regulators
to
loosen
standards,
sort
of
extra
statutorily
authorizing
utilities
to
not
comply.
They
are
not
imposing
penalties
in
response
to
non-compliance
and
the
to
me,
the
event
looks
like
a
kind
of
third-world
collapse
of
state
authority
where
the
states
can
pass
whatever
laws
they
like
they're,
not
enforced.
Private
sector
does
not
comply,
and
then
the
authority
of
the
state
to
enforce
its
decisions
in
slaws
is
then
diluted.
E
E
Assumption
that
the
role
of
government
in
climate
change
is
it's
a
finessing
agency,
it's
limited
to
finessing
change
in
the
private
sector.
It
can
change
its
subsidies,
it
can
change
its
taxes,
it
can
set
standards
and
targets
and
goals.
It
can
establish
regulatory
regimes
to
influence
the
behavior
of
these
corporations.
You
can
count
the
corporations
that
are
causing
climate
change
on,
if
not
on
your
hands,
on
your
on
two
sets
of
hands.
E
The
very
few
entities
that
are
actually
causing
this
crisis
and
they'll
turn
around
and
say
we're
all
causing
it's
our
lifestyle,
that's
causing
it
I
would
pull
today.
That
is
part
of
it.
The
Box,
the
policy
box
that
were
stuck
in
there
are
two
camps.
One
camp
says
it's
sort
of
the
Dick
Cheney
school.
E
That
says
the
conservation
is
virtue,
its
moral
virtue
that
if
more
people
bought
Priuses
and
more
people
invested
in
energy
efficiency,
Al
Gore
made
this
mistake
in
his
film
as
well,
but
if
people
and
consumers
were
more
virtuous
in
their
consumption
patterns
that
it
would
solve
the
problem,
that's
one
school,
then
there's
the
technology
school.
That
says
we
have
to
wait.
The
kind
of
Google
school
that
says
we
have
to
find
the
great
earth-shattering
technology
e
is
less
than
C
find
the
technology
that's
cheaper
than
coal,
and
you
found
the
solution.
I
would.
C
E
To
you
that
both
are
wrong,
we
cannot
wait
for
markets
to
just
to
deliver
the
solution.
We
cannot
wait
for
technology
and
we
cannot
wait
for
individuals
to
become
more
virtuous
to
solve
this
problem.
Instead,
please
carry
the
next
ones,
real
change
for
a
set.
The
sets
of
the
precedents
or
background
of
dramatic
changes
in
response
to
to
perceived
public
need
or
perceived
crisis.
One
example,
a
very
good
one
on
the
technology
side
is
telecommunications.
The
transformation
of
telecommunications
over
the
past
30
years
is
revolutionary
from
the
1970s.
E
When
the
telephone
company
owned
your
telephone,
call
it
a
terminal
and
would
not
allow
even
fax
machines
to
be
used,
except
for
military
applications.
Today,
when
the
phone
in
your
pocket
is
more
advanced
than
the
computers
that
control
the
grid,
that's
the
fundamental
truth.
At
the
time.
The
grid
has
no
intelligence
in
it,
but
your
cell
phone
is
more
powerful
than
a
mainframe
computer
was
40
years
ago.
That's
a
transformation,
and
that
is
the
kind
of
transformation
that
is
needed
in
the
energy
industry,
not
merely
an
incremental
change.
E
A
mitigation
of
the
current
system,
a
10
20
30
percent
improvement.
We're
talking
about
a
total
transformation
that
fundamentally
changes
the
nature
of
energy.
That's
what's
required,
it
will
not
come
in
mentally.
This
is
this
quote
from
bob
Galvan's,
the
former
CEO
of
Motorola
expresses
an
interest
in
on
Wall
Street
and
among
the
banks
to
deliver
this
kind
of
change
and,
in
a
sense,
consensus
on
climate
has
been
achieved
in
the
United
States.
The
question
is:
how
do
we
get
there?
Please
carry
the
next
slide.
E
How
do
we
get
to
an
80
percent
carbon
solution?
Now,
implicitly,
an
80
percent
carbon
solution
means
a
hundred
percent
carbon
solution
in
the
power
sector.
It
means
a
90
percent
solution
in
the
transportation
sector.
It
means
a
sixty
percent
solution
everywhere
else,
because
the
hierarchy
of
influence
of
governments
goes
from
top
to
bottom.
E
In
that
order,
governments
have
enormous
control
over
the
energy
sector,
they
have
limited
control
over
the
transportation
sector
and
they
have
very
little
control
over
the
other,
the
other
third
of
the
cause
of
carbon
in
the
world,
and
so
a
hundred
percent
solution.
If
you
consider
a
hundred
percent
solution,
the
next
few
decades,
that
means
that
we
must
physically
replace
the
entire
energy
supply
physically
in
just
a
few
decades.
This
is
a
non
incremental
event
and
the
public
works
precedent
again
is
the
most
appropriate
kind
of
paradigm
to
view
what
has
to
occur.
E
If
we
go
back
to
to
please
the
next
one,
if
we
go
back
to
impressive
history,
where
we're
public
works
were
implemented,
the
most
famous
was
the
cholera
epidemics
of
the
mid
nineteenth
century.
There
were
several
waves
of
cholera
epidemics,
the
United
States,
which
were
far
more
devastating
in
Europe,
and
they
were
here,
but
there
were
significant
in
New.
York
City
was
the
epicenter
of
some
major
epidemics
proposals.
E
Initial
debate
in
New
York
focused
on
the
relationship
between
cholera
and
poverty
and
the
Chamber
of
Commerce
in
New,
York,
believed
and
declared
the
caller
was
caused
by
public
immorality
by
the
by
by
the
by
immigrants,
primarily
Irish
immigrants,
who
were
dirty
promiscuous
and
drunkards,
and
that
it
was
the
their
lifestyle
that
was
causing
disease
and
that
the
solution
for
the
cholera
was
to
approve
their
lifestyle,
very
reminiscent
of
the
of
the
the
conservationist
virtue
school
of
technology.
That
says
we
have
to
improve
our
lives.
It's
our
fault.
E
We
have
to
improve
how
we
live
now,
there's
validity
to
the
notion
of
changing
how
we
live
I'm,
not
saying
it's
not
valid,
but
the
notion
that
we
could
achieve
a
hundred
percent
transformation
of
the
energy
system
over
us
a
few
decades
through
that
approach
is
in
very
responsible.
It
is
physically
impossible
to
do
so.
The
over
the
course
of
two
decades.
E
The
debate
raged
in
New
York
City
around
proposals
for
municipal
water
and
sewer
system,
Chamber
of
Commerce,
called
it
a
form
of
communism,
the
violation
of
private
property
digging
up
trenches
across
people's
yards
nefarious
pipes
linking
everyone's
homes,
formerly
isolated,
discrete
homes.
This
were
not
connected
through
underground
networks,
all
of
our
refuse
combined
into
pipeline
systems.
E
They
consider
this
to
be
dangerous
precedent
and
yet
today,
who
would
say
that
owning
a
toilet
makes
you
a
communist,
it's
unthinkable
absurd,
and
yet
that's
precisely
the
same
quality
of
debate
that
we
find
today
around
public
interference
in
the
energy
sector.
Now
we
are
coming
out
of
the
Cold
War.
After
all,
in
the
Cold
War
was
largely
fought
around
preventing
communism
in
the
energy
sector.
There
is
a
powerful
resistance
to
government
interference
and
energy
and
I
would
make
the
case
and
I
have
many
times
before.
E
That's
precisely
what
we
have
to
face,
the
fear
of
government
interference
in
energy
sector
because
waiting
for
the
energy
industry
to
deliver
the
solution
to
the
problem
it
has
caused,
is
effectively
waiting
for
godot.
Godot
will
never
arrive,
they
go
to
the
growth
and
then
carbon
emissions
is
outstripping
all
action
to
reduce
carbon.
By
far
in
fact,
it's
laughable
and
the
the
us
increase
in
carbon
since
Kyoto
is
very
disturbing
and
that's
what's.
E
What
10
want
to
make
one
very
pessimistic
now
just
for,
as
in
terms
of
my
own
background,
local
PI
I
started
about
15
years
ago
and
wrote
a
committee
choice,
law
in
Massachusetts
and
then
went
on
to
helps
drive
similar
laws
in
Ohio
and
New
Jersey
in
California,
and
another
law
was
passed
in
Rhode
Island.
So
they're,
not
five
states
that
that
allows
city
governments
to
to
decide
what
kind
of
energy
to
purchase
as
communities
through
their
local
government
through
a
process
very
similar
to
the
selection
of
municipal
garbage
collection.
F
E
500
year
old,
Authority
part
of
the
organic
authority
of
cities
in
most
states,
I
know
that
Ohio
has
a
very
strong
home
rule
tradition
and
the
authority
of
cities
to
protect
the
public
health
and
welfare.
Is
the
the
foundation
of
this
authority
to
award
exclusive
contracts
to
private
entities
to
provide
essential
services
to
a
community.
E
A
community
choice
in
a
sense
is
a
reinvention
of
that
age-old
Authority
and
so
I've
spent
the
last
15
years
developing
this
approach
and
it
went
from
Massachusetts
in
1995
and
was
passed
in
97
to
Ohio
in
98,
which
passed
a
99
into
to
California,
really
helped
in
New
Jersey,
but
in
California
I
drafted
Community
Choice
bill
and
in
the
late
90s,
and
it
was
finally
adopted
in
2002
next
slide.
Please
dream
and
I'm
sorry,
Gary
I
missed
one
point
either.
Would
you
mind
going
back
over
on
the
right?
D
E
Public
works
community
choice
from
the
point
of
view
of
Public
Works
at
the
2000
foot
perspective
gives
a
community
control
over
these
the
spending
of
funds
that
it
already
spends
every
month
on
on
its
electric
bill.
So
every
one
of
us
here
pays
an
electric
bill
every
month.
Currently
it
goes
to
the
incumbent
monopoly
utility.
F
E
Six
counties
100
and
something
municipalities,
620,000
customer
homes,
which
is
about
a
million
and
a
half
people
that
purchase
energy
through
that
Community
Choice
aggregation
when
they
formed.
There
was
a
another
group
in
Northwest
Ohio
that
was
trying
to
find
suppliers
and
they're
having
a
great
deal
of
trouble.
E
E
C
E
E
The
use
of
municipal
Public
Works
to
build
essential
infrastructure.
There
were
no
big
bridges
until
Robert
Moses
of
New
York
invented
the
New
York
transportation
authority.
The
New
York
parks
I
can
remember,
though,
who's
the
New
York
Parks
Authority,
and
these
were
used
to
finance
bridges
and
to
to
collect
tolls
in
order
to
repay
laws.
This.
E
Of
issuing
public
debt
and
establishing
authority
to
collect
revenue
to
repay
the
debt
is
the
essential
instrument
of
public
works,
written
the
solar,
H
or
H
bonds.
We
could
call
them
H
fund
because
of
the
symbolism
of
hydrogen
the
Sun,
and
it
happened
to
by
luck
to
be
proposition
H
that
passed
when
the
bond
Authority
H
bonds
is
essentially
based
on
a
traditional
authority
to
issue
bonds.
E
C
E
C
E
So
community
choice
aggregation.
This
is
the
authority
of
cities
to
aggregate
the
private
sector
and
the
public
sector
residents,
businesses,
the
streetlights,
the
municipal
buildings,
Lowe's
and
Ohio.
That
authority
includes
both
electricity
purchasing
and
gas
purchasing.
Now
electricity
and
gas,
arguably
I,
would
say
in
your
case,
probably
causes
over
half
of
all
of
your
greenhouse
gas
emissions
for
your
community.
So
you
have,
through
this
vehicle
the
authority
to
condition
your
use
of
energy
to
impact
over
half
of
your
entire.
E
This
community
choice
authorized
the
city
to
solicit
bids
from
competitive
suppliers
to
come
in
to
provide
commodity
service.
Everyone
who
receives
their
monthly
energy
from
this
new
entity,
and
it
leaves
the
current
utility
intact
as
a
distribution
company.
It
delivers
the
power
to
you,
it's
it
can
either
read
the
meter
and
send
a
bill
or
the
new
supplier
can
read
the
meters
in
the
bill.
That's
up
to
local
control.
Please
next
slide.
E
E
The
the
key
term
political
agent
that
got
by
the
initial
bill
adopted
was
was
based
in
Cape
Cod,
and
they
really
did
the
political
lifting
there.
Shortly
after
drafting
the
bill,
my
chairman
was
removed
from
his
position
because
no
one
was
happy
with
this
bill.
Nobody
wanted
it,
and,
and
so,
if
he
was
no
longer
in
position
to
push
it
but
he's
the
communities
down
in
Cape
Cod
had
a
number
of
idealist
s--,
really
a
very
shockingly
small
number
of
people
who
who
push
this
thing
through
the
legislature
and
formed
the
Cape
light
compact.
E
E
They
just
wanted
to
find
someone
who
could
offer
a
discount
for
small
customers,
and
so
they
went
out
to
market
and
Green.
Mountain
Energy
came
in
backed
by
BP
and
they
offered
a
a
portfolio
that
had
no
coal
in
it,
and
no
nuclear
that
only
gas
and
a
small
increment
of
renewables,
but
they
also
guaranteed
a
5%
discount.
So
these
communities,
which
weren't
even
looking
for
cleaner
energy,
achieved
an
announcement
for
BP
a
33%
net
greenhouse
gas
reduction
and
a
70
percent,
across-the-board
pollution
reduction
for
a
million
people
with
a
guaranteed
discount.
E
Now
this
in
terms
of
conventional
market
economics,
this
is
not
possible
for
you
to
have
greater
power.
You
must
pay
more
right.
Well,
you
know
it's
one
of
the
lessons
of
the
nonlinear
economics
of
energy
in
energy
markets
which
are
not
competitive,
which
have
have
chronic
manipulation
and
collusion
problems.
C
E
Was
a
miracle
to
us,
it
was
a
real
shot
in
the
arm.
It
helped
us
get
the
the
law
adopted
by
the
legislature
in
California
in
2002,
I
really
spent.
You
know
the
last
nine
years
very
focused
in
California
I
was
born
in
California
in
the
north
and
focused
on
San
Francisco,
the
political
leadership
in
San
Francisco.
E
Marin
County
is
probably
right
behind
pleased
Nexus,
like
Derry,
and
so
I
want
to
go
back
to
the
economics
into
this
question
of
price,
because
it
is
always
the
key
factor
and
it's
the
key
factor
for
those
that
turn
to
nuclear
is
that
they
accept
the
this.
This
economic
ideology
that
maintains
the
green
power
is
more
expensive.
E
It's
not.
The
issue
is
finance.
The
first
thing
that
allows
green
power
to
compete
with
brown
power
is
the
use
of
municipal
financing.
It's
the
basic
element
of
Public
Works,
the
cost
of
capital,
something
that's
little
known
and
little
appreciated
in
the
overall
energy
debate
is
the
capital
burden
of
renewable
renewable
energy
compared
to
conventional
energy.
If
you're,
a
bank
and
you're
going
to
underwrite
a
power
plant,
you're
gonna
put
down
about
10%
of
the
lifecycle
cost
of
a
power
plants
power
on
the
plant
itself
on
the
steel,
only
ten
percent.
E
E
You
pay
some
upfront
most
of
the
as
you
use
the
renewable
energy
there's
no
fuel,
and
so
all
the
pricing
around
the
cost
of
the
fuel
is
based
upon
the
fact
that
you've
got
to
put
a
hundred
percent
down,
not
ten
percent
down,
and
so
the
cost
of
your
capital
has
an
enormous
disproportion
exponentially
disproportionate
impact
on
the
cost
of
your
power.
Could
we
go
to
the
next
slide?
This
is
an
example
and
I
know
it's
a
complicated
spreadsheets
fly,
but
we
designed
portfolios
for
cities,
and
this
is
one.
This
is
a
wind
farm.
E
On
the
left-hand
column,
you
have
a
privately
financed
wind
farm
on
the
right-hand
column,
e
of
a
publicly
financed
wind
farm.
All
the
factors
are
the
same
they're.
The
only
factor
that's
different
is
the
fact
that
it's
public
financing
and
if
you
look
down
on
the
third
row
from
the
bottom,
you'll
see
the
cost
of
electricity
from
this
wind
farm.
The
privately
Fights
wind
farm
is
11
1/2
cents
per
kilowatt
hour.
The
publicly
financed
wind
farm
is
6.8
cents,
just
under
7
cents.
So
the
difference
in
cost
of
green
power
is
not
as
dramatically
lower.
E
So
the
real
core
phenomenon
is
that
lower
cost
of
capital
for
a
capital
burdensome
technology.
The
second
is
the
rate
setting
authority
that
is
created
through
committee
toy
segregation.
This
allows
a
city
to
decide
how
it's
going
to
charge
for
its
power.
That
is
how
much
more
residents
pay
small
businesses
medium
businesses.
It
allows
the
city
to
attenuate
more
complex
energy
product
products
to
not
merely
sell
electricity
to
you
as
a
consumer,
but
to
finance
an
energy
facility
for
you
as
an
owner.
E
It
allows
the
community
to
to
effectively
finance
your
energy
future
and
to
invest
and
that
you
see
on
the
bottom
there
to
invest
in
demand-side
technology.
So,
and
this
demand-side
technology
is,
is
it?
Is
it
poorly
understood
and
underappreciated
category
of
energy
I
want
it
to
in
the
blue?
There
you
see
virtual
capacity.
The
word
virtual
capacity
is
already
cheaper
than
coal.
A
virtual
capacity
is
a
relatively
new
term
of
of
industry.
E
E
My
great
deal
of
the
new
growth
and
solar
photovoltaics
is
coming
from
companies
that
approach
customers
not
with
a
sale
proposed
sale
of
solar
panels,
but
instead
with
the
proposed
sale,
solar
power,
on-site
solar
power,
so
you
receive
an
offer
from
a
solar
company
to
not
to
buy
panels,
but
to
buy
power
from
panels
on
your
roof,
will
put
it
on
your
roof.
Will
pay,
for
it
will
say
the
power
for
X
number
of
years
and
will
take
the
federal
tax
cut.
Well,
will
see
to
it.
E
The
system
pays
for
itself
and
once
it
pays
for
itself,
we
go
away
and
you
own
the
panels.
It's
kind
of
a
new
deal
in
solar,
very
popular
lots
of
growth.
If
you
take
it
to
the
next
level,
which
is
what
we're
really
doing
here-
you're
issuing
bonds
to
finance
solar.
So
you
have
a
lower
cost
of
capital
and
you're
not
limited
to
photovoltaics,
which
are
is
a
relatively
high
cost
available
resource.
E
You
can
invest
in
demand-side
technology
now,
demand-side
technology
or
our
you
know,
energy
efficiency,
more
efficient
lights
that
you
appeared
to
have
here
demand
response
technology
that
effectively
automates
energy
use
in
buildings.
You
know
a
public
housing
apartment
building
with
a
thousand
refrigerators
can
can
receive
refrigeration,
pump,
automation
systems
that
serialize
the
pumps,
so
that
they're
not
all
on
at
the
same
time,
so
the
carbon
profile
for
refrigerators
can
be
dramatically
reduced.
E
The
cost
of
service
to
the
building,
because
the
peak
load
on
the
building
is
can
be
cut
in
half,
is
reduced
to
the
overall
cost
of
energy
to
the
building
can
be
reduced.
The
these
technologies,
which
are
off
the
shelf
they've
been
around
for
decades,
are
so
cheap
than
if
you
finance
them
and
level
and
convert
a
sale
of
equipment
into
a
levelized
cost
sale
of
power
called
virtual
capacity.
It's
cheaper
than
coal.
Today,
the
ability
of
cities
to
finance
technologies
that
reduce
energy
use
without
lowering
the
quality
of
lighting
and
heating
in
the
building.
E
At
prices
that
are
cheaper
than
coal
is
truly
a
radical
opportunity.
Now
one
would
ask
well
why
aren't
the
utilities
doing
it
next
slide,
please
by
shaping
the
supply
and
demand
really
a
new
game
and
energy
is
becomes
achievable.
No
longer,
are
you
simply
trying
to
replace
a
brown
power
plant
with
a
green
power
plant?
In
fact,
you've
read
the
James
Lovelock
work.
James
Lovelock
is
a
British
scientist
who
led
the
charge
to
to
revive
the
nuclear
industry
in
response
to
the
climate
crisis.
E
Why
did
he
do
this
because
he's
a
scientist
and
he
he
studied
the
basic
arithmetic
of
carbon?
He
looked
first
at
wind
power,
the
wind
power
is
known
to
be
the
cheapest
renewable
resource,
so
he
assumed
this
would
be
the
most
logical
place
to
start
for
achieving
Department
solution
upon
cursory
study.
You
realize
that
when
it's
a
radically
limited
technology,
why?
Because
it
relies
generally
speaking
upon
transmission,
to
deliver
it
into
cities
from
remote
locations.
E
E
However,
from
a
carbon
perspective,
they
become
physically
limited,
limited
in
terms
of
how
much
carbon
reduction
they
can
deliver
effectively
they're
limited
to
a
twenty
or
thirty
percent
solution.
He
observed
this
himself.
They
said,
okay.
Well,
let's,
let's
look
across
the
board
here.
What
else
could
we
do
so?
Solar,
photovoltaics?
You
look
at
solar.
You
looked
at
the
current
growth
terms
of
solar,
the
current
role
of
solar
and
energy
markets.
It's.
F
E
It's
it's
on
the
scale
of
the
pet
rock.
It's
it's
a
tiny,
visionary,
potentially
radical,
but
currently
in
significant
component
of
energy
markets.
The
scale
of
energy
markets
is
really
the
problem
and
to
get
significant.
Carbon
reduction
in
those
markets
requires
such
a
transformation
that
any
rational
person
looking
at
the
carbon
arithmetic
will
realize
it's
just
not
probable.
We're
going
to
get
there
based
on
that
technology
either.
So
he
was
essentially
mr.
Lovelock
driven
into
the
arms
of
nuclear
power.
He
saw.
No
alternative
is
not
an
irresponsible
man
and
but
I
studied
his
work.
E
I
read
every
book
that
he
wrote
and
I
did
find
some
flaws
in
his
thinking.
The
first
flaw
was
that
he
didn't
look
at
demand-side
technology.
He
just
isn't
on
the
list.
He's
a
supply-side
thinker,
concert
and
lo
and
behold
look
at
the
climate
discussion.
It's
all
supply-side
thinking.
It's
all
we're
gonna
go
from
brown
power
to
green
back.
It
won't
work.
You
can't
do
it
it's
physically
impossible
to
achieve,
and
that's
what
the
utilities
will
tell
you.
It
won't
work
it's
impossible
to
achieve.
They
don't
look
at
the
demand
side
technology
either.
Why
don't?
E
They
very
simple
they
own
the
transmission
lines,
most
of
them
sure
there
are
energy
importers.
Transmission
lines
are
energy,
importation
systems,
they,
the
primary
investment
of
the
electric
utilities
and
the
primary
profit
center
of
it.
Electric
employees
is
transmission
systems,
then
make
money
like
long
distance
companies
not
really
from
burning
but
from
delivering,
and
what
mr.
Lovelock
realized
was
that
you
just
can't
get
a
carbon
unless
you
actually
reduce
throughput.
E
Unless
you
reduce
sales,
if
you
reduce
sales,
then
all
the
entities
of
the
world,
public
and
private
that
own
transmission
systems
are
in
deep
trouble
and
it's
profound
trouble.
It's
not
it's
not
a
casual
problem.
It's
not
a
moral
problem
on
their
behalf.
They
truly
own
debt
attached
to
these
these
assets,
this
infrastructure,
you'll
notice.
Today,
most
many
utilities
are
saying
we
need
more
transmission
to
deal
with
the
energy
crisis.
They
want
to
build
more
transmission.
Now.
This
is
a
carbon
nightmare.
E
To
the
extent
that
the
energy
system
is
further
centralized
bigger
systems,
larger
systems
as
if
the
energy
shortage
could
be
solved
by
having
bigger
pipe
this
sort
of
metaphor
of
the
energy
short
of
the
energy
crisis,
the
carbon
implications
are
devastating.
In
fact,
the
only
way
to
get
significant
amount
of
carbon
out
of
the
system
is
to
decentralize
the
system,
reduce
dependence
on
transmission,
phase
down,
centralized
power
plants
and
build
up
local
power
generation
and
invest
heavily
in
demand-side
technology
have
dramatically
and
heavily
now.
One
of
the
casualties
and
community
choice
allows
this.
Why?
E
Because
major
centers
don't
own
transmission
systems,
they
don't
even
own
distribution
systems,
there's
no
harm
to
the
community
and
investing
heavily
and
technologies
that
reduce
throughput,
there's
no
harm
and
because
the
technologies
virtual
capacity
can
be
sold
on
a
loved
alized
basis
at
a
price
is
lower
than
cold.
It
won't
rise
the
car,
the
raise
the
price
of
your
power.
That's
why
it's
a
radical
opportunity.
It
is
also
radically
threatening
to
the
owners
of
transmission
infrastructure
to
their
future
in
much
the
same
way
that
skype,
the
peer-to-peer
telephone
software
is
fundamentally
threatening
to
fiber
owners.
E
Decentralized
technologies
threaten
those
infrastructure,
owners
and
they're
in
a
pinch,
I
don't
blame
them,
but
the
notion
that
electric
utilities
should
be
asked
to
solve
the
carbon
crisis
is
a
name.
The
notion
that
they
should
can
be
regulated
or
finessed
or
influenced
or
motivated
to
reduce
sales
is
irresponsible.
It's
politically
irresponsible
to
place
responsibility
upon
them.
They
have
to
be
pushed
aside.
New
entities
have
to
come
in
to
facilitate
good
economics
to
replace
what
they
own
and
basically
to
shrink
them
to
make
them
less
significant,
less
important
in
the
market.
E
So
this
is
the
basic
kind
of
economic
model
we're
talking
about
as
a
Community
Choice
aggregator
with
rate
setting
authority,
you
have
the
ability
to
to
to
go
up
to
50,000
feet,
analyze
your
energy
usage
and
come
up
with
the
best
available
technology
on
the
demand
side
of
the
supply-side
package.
It
together
as
a
single
Public,
Works
investment.
It's
it's
more
complex,
it's
more
attenuated,
but
it
is
a
public
works
project
and
bundle
that
into
a
new
power
service.
E
For
the
community
that
involves
the
issuance
of
public
lands
and
those
those
finances
are
paid
for
exclusively
through
the
energy
bill,
they
don't
require
additional
expenditures
or
general
fund
exposure
to
to
repay
those
debts.
Next,
please
now,
if
you
back
up
and
go
back
to
the
the
cholera
crisis
or
the
bridge
phenomenon
that
Robert
Moses
phenomenon,
if
you.
E
The
most
appropriate
agent
of
that
planning
is
the
entity
that
issues
permits
for
industrial
facilities,
and
so,
if
you
look
at
the
failure
of
renewable
distributed
generation,
which
is
local
power
technologies
that
have
been
in
business
with
with
off-the-shelf
technology
for
about
a
decade
and
a
half
really
waiting
to
break
into
energy
markets,
they've
been
stifled,
they've
gotten
nowhere,
they're
dead
in
the
water
there's
some
photovoltaic
growth,
but
generally
speaking,
they're
all
sitting
on
their
hands.
Why
they
have
a
one-off
approach
to
selling
their
product
they're,
trying
to
basically
they're
they
have
to
go.
E
E
When
it's
up
on
your
roof
you're
paying
a
lot
for
marketing
for
that
company
because
they
had
to
spend
a
lot
of
time
finding
you
with
a
community
choice,
aggregation,
there's,
no
marketing
cost
the
the
city
has
a
direct
channel
to
to
every
customer
can
offer
them
products
on
the
electric
bill.
Those
who
they
are
knows
has
general
knowledge
about
their
their
energy
use.
E
The
the
distributed
generation
vendors
have
no
regulatory
leverage;
they
have
to
interconnect
with
utilities
that
are
hostile
to
them
that
can
delay
their
interconnect,
drive
up
their
construction
costs.
They
have
a
high
cost
of
capital
in
order
to
to
finance
facilities.
They
have
to
go
to
banks
that
are
that
are
charging
twice.
What
a
municipal
revenue
bond
would
cost
for
the
same
facility.
E
Deregulation,
competitive
suppliers
have
the
same
problems
in
the
market,
also
largely
solved
through
committee
choice
aggregation.
They
have
a
very
high
marketing
cost.
If
you
go
back
to
California,
when
the
market
collapsed,
Ken
Lay,
who
was
largely
scapegoated
for
the
crisis,
was
the
first
to
announce
that
the
market
was
failing.
He
effect
he
pulled
his
company
Enron
out
of
the
market
three
months
after
it
opened
announcing
that
it
costs
him
two
hundred
seventy
dollars
just
to
find
a
customer.
It
just
didn't
work
and
limited
choice,
provides
regional
markets
for
these
suppliers.
E
They
don't
have
to
spend
money
on
advertising.
They
just
have
to
put
together
competitive
products
and
spend
money
on
the
quality
of
the
product.
Rather
than
spending
money
on
billboards
and
TV
ads.
The
high
customer
churn
the
instability
of
deregulated
markets
with
customers
switching
from
one
company
to
another.
If
you
want
to
make
long-term
investments
in
infrastructure,
you
can't
have
high
customer
churn.
It
just
doesn't
support
a
long
term.
E
Approach
to
energy
and
Community
Choice
provides
that
that
stability
leverage
with
the
utility
company
most
utilities
have
a
franchise
agreements
with
municipalities
and
those
that
provide
cities
with
significant
leverage
over
the
utilities.
Behavior
most
cities
own
the
wires
paths
of
utilities.
Their
entire
business
rests
on
real
estate
owned
by
the
cities.
In
which
they
operate
additional
leverage
to
cooperate
on
interconnect
to
reduce
those
construction
delays
and
by
doing
that,
reduce
the
cost
of
the
power
that's
generated.
E
The
exposure
to
wholesale
markets
is
a
huge
problem.
The
markets
are
non-competitive
the
utilities
exercising
significant
market
power
and
they
use
it
so
that
competitors
that
that
come
in
and
try
to
serve
communities
have
enormous
leverage
by
developing,
emphasizing
local
power
resources
rather
than
depending
just
on
remote
power
plants
that
are
under
control
of
utilities
and
basically
hostile
players.
E
Finally,
again
the
low-cost
capital,
you
know
the
thing
that
killed
Enron
was
there's
been
their
dependence
on
commercial
credit,
but
the
trading
energy
trading
system
relies
on
banks
to
provide
that
credit,
and
their
withdrawal
of
credit
by
banks
can
be
devastating
to
these
companies,
and
one
of
the
things
that
makes
is
driving
up
natural
gas
prices.
Right
now
is
speculation
and
markets
that
are
held
up
on
short-term,
short-term
credit.
That
volatility
isn't
just
a
function
of
the
physical
resource.
It's
a
function
of
the
market
structure
that
delivers
the
resource
and
speculation
causes
volatility.
E
So,
once
you
get
out
of
the
pipe
all
of
the
public
policy
box,
where
the
role
of
government
is
simply
to
finesse
and
influencing
and
regulate
a
police.
Instead,
its
role
is
to
build
to
plan
to
build
finance
to
owned.
Then
a
different
view
of
things
emerges.
You
you
really
you're.
Looking
at
a
municipal
public
works
project,
the
solution
to
climate
change
is
a
municipal
public
works
project,
the
the
nature,
the
challenges,
the
opportunities
of
a
public
works
project
are
entirely
different
from
the
challenges
and
opportunities
of
a
market.
E
Nice
slide,
please
as
a
my
company,
local
power,
as
because
we
view
ourselves
as
as
advisors
to
local
governments
in
planning
and
negotiating
with
suppliers
for
public
works
projects.
We've
partnered
with
Booz
Allen
Hamilton,
which
is
an
ages.
The
nation's
largest
public
works
consultancy.
They
focus
on
infrastructure,
project,
on
larger
construction
projects
and
Nixon
Peabody,
which
is
in
the
the
second
largest
power
plant
finance
law,
firm
that
specializes
in
in
municipal
size
of
the
deal.
So
we
have
some
great
partners
that
give
us
depth.
E
The
idea
of
a
rollout
is
quite
different
from
the
idea
of
a
market.
If
you
look
at
a
city
rooftops
of
the
city,
I
mean
every
guy
in
solar
imagines.
What
could
we
do
if
he
could
just
cover
all
the
rooftops
of
the
city
with
both
solar
panels?
Well,
if
you're
operating
a
market,
you
can't
do
that.
All
you
can
do
is
put
up
your
billboards
and
your
advertisements
and
wait
for
people
to
sign
up.
E
If
they
sign
up,
then
you
have
to
go
and
survey
the
rooftop
and
see
if
the
roofs
pointed
the
right
way.
If
the
roofs
gonna
fall
down
the
next
20
years,
look
at
the
tariffs,
what
tariff
the
customers
under
to
determine
the
rate
of
payback
on
the
investment,
and
then
you
have
to
make
a
decision
as
to
whether
it's
a
good
location,
advisable,
location
and
a
role
that
it's
quite
different,
the
roof.
The
roofs
of
your
city
are
simply
a
platform
for
infrastructure
period.
E
E
But
no
longer
are
you
required
to
to
sell
a
product
to
that
rooftop
owner
the
the
thinning
down
are
the
narrowing
of
the
opportunity
through
a
market
approach
is
quite
shocking
if
you
think
about
it
in
wireless,
the
wireless
industry,
two
people
from
Wireless,
because
wireless
companies
acquire
rooftops,
that's
how
they
build
networks,
they
go
around,
they
send
real-estate
Cowboys
around
and
they
and
engineers
the
engineers
say.
Oh
I'd,
like.
E
Order
to
design
and
software
program
design
cells
that
overlaps,
you
have
coverage,
and
then
they
go
and
they
identify
the
owner
of
the
building
at
the
county
plat
maps,
and
then
they
go
and
call
them
up
and
negotiate
a
deal,
give
them
free
phones
and
they
give
them
a
thousand
bucks
a
month
or
whatever
the
market
bears
for
that
rooftop.
It's
real
estate.
E
It's
not
a
customer
to
sell
a
phone
to
it's,
not
it's
an
unrelated
problem,
its
infrastructure,
and
so
it
really
is
a
different,
totally
different
kind
of
paradigm
for
how
to
do
it,
not
merely
a
different
financing
vehicle
but
physically
different,
and
once
you
get
to
the
car
back
to
the
carbon
level
50,000
feet
in
order
to
reduce
carbon
you've
got
to
reduce
load
at
the
substation.
You've
got
to
physically
decongest
them
on
the
grid.
E
Grids
are
magnetic
fields
and
if
a
random
spread
spread
pattern
of
photovoltaics,
if
you
just
randomly
placed
solar
around
your
community,
you'll
find
that
the
carbon
impact,
the
load
impact
of
the
substation
is
very
unpredictable.
Why?
Because
high
congestion
areas
in
micro
grid,
where
there's
very
little
room
for
capacity,
will
take
power
back
at
a
very
different
rate
from
low
congestion
areas
in
the
micro
grid.
In
other
words,
the
location
of
local
power
is
really
the
appropriate
from
engineering
level.
E
E
We
got
from
regulators
in
California
was
full
access
to
utility
data.
It
was
tough
to
get
it,
but
we
got
it
and
you
need
to
get
it
in
Ohio,
as
there
are
a
few
things
that
need
to
be
done
or
know
how
to
fully
do
this.
But
you
can't
start
now-
and
there
are
things
you
can
do
now,
but
that
ability
to
see
the
city
as
an
organism
and
really
redesign
energy
systems
to
adapt
them
to
the
energy
uses
in
the
city
as
well
as
adapting
to
the
local
rural
resources.
What
have
you
gotten?
E
E
So
you
know
it
takes
time
and
doing
things
first
always
takes
particularly
lots
of
time
and
San
Francisco.
You
can
see
it's
you
know.
2001
was
the
first,
the
first
major
action,
and
we
really
had
continuous
effort
to
get
the
financing
authority
to
get
an
ordinance
that
combined
the
financing
Authority
with
the
procurement
Authority
2004,
and
then
last
summer,
after
two
and
a
half
years,
the
city
adopted
an
implementation
plan
we
are
just.
E
Last
week
my
company
was
was
awarded
a
contract
to
write
the
contract
documents
and
negotiate
this
deal
with
energy
suppliers,
which
we
will
do
over
the
next
six
months.
Nice
slide,
please
the
benefit,
however,
of
this
approach
is
that
it
delivers
nonlinear
change.
It's
not
simply
a
market.
We
are
setting
a
target
and
putting
in
a
few
systems.
Rather,
the
city
will
issue
around
a
billion
dollars
in
bonds
over
the
next
few
years,
and
after
that,
another
billion
or
two
billion
to
finish
the
job.
E
The
city
will
achieve
a
51%,
noble
portfolio
standard
in
less
than
ten
years.
Now,
a
lot
of
you
I'm
sure
the
more
informed
activists
among
you
will
naturally
think
that
can't
be
possible.
You
can't
to
have
you
see
the
bottom
there.
The
supplier
must
improve
to
procure
grid
power
and
design,
build,
operate
and
maintain
the
new
facilities
and
must
meet
or
beat
the
utilities
rates.
Pg&Amp;E.
D
E
Sorry
centers
is
simply
a
percentage
of
energy
generated
on
behalf
of
the
community
by
a
certain
year
and
currently
Ohio
has
just
adopted
a
twenty
five
percent
standard
that
includes
a
half
non-renewable
resources:
clean
coal,
innovative
technology.
So
really
a
twelve
and
a
half
percent
renewable
portfolio
standard
by
2025.
E
E
E
We
are
designing
the
portfolios
for
several
of
them
and
we
put
them
forward,
showed
the
economics
you
go
to
the
next
slide.
Please
Gary
and
this
is
an
example
of
the
most
ambitious
RPS
in
California.
We
designed
this
one.
So
it
I
understand
the
laughter.
It
is
66
percent
renewable
portfolio
standard
by
2017
at
the
same
rates
that
are
currently
being
charged.
Customers
in
that
jurisdiction.
Okay,
that
causes
a
60%
carbon
reduction.
E
E
E
So
here's
the
I,
don't
know
what
happened
there.
I
guess
that
I
have
an
Apple
computer
and
this
appears
to
have
eliminated
one
of
the
slides.
But
this
is
the
more
important
one
here.
This
is
the
portfolio
and
you'll
see
that
that
red
part
slices
the
pie,
there's
geothermal
Sonoma,
has
a
magnificent
geothermal
resource.
It's
virtually
a
huge
volcano
and
it's
underutilized.
E
There
is
virtually
no
geothermal
heating
right
now
in
Sonoma,
so
city
gas,
electric,
which
is
a
gas
and
electric
company,
has
neglected
a
world-class
technology
replacement
of
its
gas
business
and
the
radical
opportunity
in
Sonoma
is
geothermal
heat.
The
county
can
be
heated
entirely
by
geothermal,
any
home
can
be
heated
by
geothermal
I
like
to
do
is
drill
down
about
a
hundred
feet
and
you
get
100
degree
water,
it's
very
cheap
and
it
enables
the
jurisdiction
to
cross
over
into
gas,
and
not
merely
electricity
and
electricity
can
also
be
generated
from
geothermal
superheated
steam.
E
You
can
see
there,
the
the
wind
conditions
and
Sonoma
are
not
that
great
part
of
the
of
a
comprehensive
approach
to
carbon
is
localization.
So
if
you
don't
have
local
wind,
it's
better
to
move
on
rather
than
going
300
miles
away
for
a
remote
wind
farm,
because
the
transmission
line
to
that
wind
farm
is
going
to
cause
an
enormous
amount
of
carbon
and
it
will
incent
because
of
the
20%
generation
80%
non
generation
on
the
line.
E
E
So
it's
the
you
know
getting
out
of
the
public
policy
box
opens
up
the
game
and
I'm
gonna
go
back
to
to
Sonoma.
The
next
slide
will
show
you
if
I
remember
correctly
or
the
next
one.
Sorry,
it's
Gary,
that's
gonna
forward.
Sorry
I
meant
to
go
forward.
I
said
go
back,
but
I
met
before
this
is
the
basic
model
of
the
of
the
plan.
We
did
there.
E
However,
the
key
factor
in
limiting
the
proliferation
of
electric
cars
was
the
lack
of
infrastructure
to
power
them.
When
you
buy
electric
car.
Sometimes
it
comes
comes
with
a
220
charger,
and
sometimes
it
comes
with
a
extension
cord,
the
the
infrastructure
for
electric
cars.
Apparently,
the
status
quo
is
as
electric
cord,
that's
it,
and
so
you're
expected
when
you
buy
your
electric
vehicle
to
just
find
somewhere
to
plug
it
in
and
that's
the
solution
to
genetic
power
free
electric
vehicle,
it's
a
serious
problem
which
inherently
limits
the
uptake
of
the
technology.
E
We
could
say
well,
gee
just
deal
with
it.
You
know
it
goes
back
to
the
lifestyle
issue.
Be
more
tough,
don't
be
such
a
wimp.
Why
do
you
need
infrastructure
support?
How
about
your
car?
Okay?
But
the
fact
that
matters
you
want
to
get
carbon
out
of
the
system
you
gotta
have
infrastructure
support
the
electric
car
and
one
of
the
great
opportunities
that
we've
really
focusing
on
now.
Is
you
see
on
the
right
side
of
that?
Is
the
green
bubbles
on
the
right
side?
E
Is
that
when
you're
building
renewable
energy
infrastructure
for
your
buildings
and
for
lighting
heating,
you
have
the
opportunity
to
build
infrastructure
for
electric
vehicles.
You
also
have
the
opportunity
to
build
infrastructure
for
biofuels.
I
know
they're
controversial,
but
for
the
composer,
the
small
component
of
carbon
reductions
that
can
be
achieved
through
local
biofuels
in
Sonoma
County.
There's
a
lot
of
agricultural
waste
that
waste
can
and
should
be
harvested
into
methane
and
that
methane
used
for
for
or
for
biofuels
for
biodiesel.
E
E
If
you
want
to
build
electric
vehicles
and
make
them
available
to
the
public,
you
need
charging
stations
or
you
need
battery
exchanges,
and
a
key
opportunity
for
for
that
is,
is
to
establish
a
basic
infrastructure
of
public
vehicles,
powered
by
your
new
infrastructure,
to
ensure
that
revenues
remain
cycling
to
support
that
infrastructure
to
keep
its
chicken-and-egg
problem
with
the
electric
vehicle.
Is
you
can
make
your
electric
vehicle,
but
there's
no
infrastructure
to
support
it?
E
If
you
start
an
electric
vehicle
charging
station,
there's
no
cars
to
come
and
get
charged,
and
so
the
it's
essential
to
go
ahead
with
these
vehicles
that
the
chicken
and
the
egg
be
developed
simultaneously.
The
infrastructure
in
the
cars
and
municipal
public
fleets,
police
cars,
garbage
trucks,
taxi
busses,
these,
which
are
routinely
procured
by
it
by
local
governments,
are
an
opportunity
to
cross
over
from
renewable
and
energy
infrastructure
to
renewably
powered
vehicles
that
revenue
sustainability
then
provides
an
envelope
for
offering
those
fuels
and
those
vehicles
to
the
private
sector.
E
They
can
come
in
to
piggyback
because
it's
locally
based
of
local
use
of
local
infrastructure
support,
and
so,
if
you
go
to
the
next
slide,
please
Gary.
This
is
the
snapshot
of
the
climate
action
plan
that
we
completed
recently.
It
has
not
been
released
yet
at
this
is
the
the
greenhouse
gas
reduction
model.
You'll
see
the
dark
purple.
Is
the
electricity
component
of
the
carbon
reduction
you'll,
see
it's
relatively
small
California's
energy
currently
is
primarily
hydro
and
nuclear.
A
natural
gas
base
there's
very
little
cold
and
used
for
regeneration
in
California.
F
E
Amount
of
carbon
that
we're
pulling
out
of
electricity
alone
is
smaller
than
what
is
leveraged
by
those
revenues
being
the
is
the
investment
in
the
infrastructure,
an
electricity
that
leverages
the
investment
in
the
infrastructure
in
transportation,
which
in
California
is
the
largest
cause
and
a
natural
gas
system
replacements
in
Ohio,
obviously
you're
using
coal,
so
the
largest
cause
of
greenhouse
gases.
Here
is
coal
combustion
for
power,
but
the
near
second
is
transportation.
Both
can
be
leveraged.
This
approach
isn't
just
a
matter
of
gas
electricity.
Next,
please.
C
E
Yeah,
oh
yeah,
we
have
effectively
a
60%
co2
reduction
and
the
power
sector
from
the
plan
and
I
wish.
You
could
see
the
difference,
but
it
is
the
difference
between
heaven
and
hell
with
staying.
You
know
with
with
the
current
utility
and
going
to
this
plant
next,
please
so
you
know
coming
back
to
the
political
level,
some
elected
officials
respond
to
this.
By
saying
this
is
great
love.
It
fixed
investment
fees
for
all
the
world's
problems,
but
we
have
voters
to
deal
with
here
and
voters
want
cheaper
power,
know
been
a
gas
crisis
today.
E
E
E
The
political
schizophrenia
of
this
country
and
the
world
is
incredibly
dangerous,
so
it
is
important
to
be
able
to
sell
this
to
to
consumers
at
this
sort
of
inner
reptile
level
and
I
always
said
that
the
inner
reptile
today,
fortunately
because
one
of
them
positive
byproducts,
an
energy
crisis
is
that
has
cost
fear
because
fear
something
people
understand
and
today,
whereas
ten
years
ago,
consumers
were
being
sold,
deregulation
based
upon
the
promise
of
cheaper
power
tomorrow,
that
notion
is
more
or
less
vaporized.
There
is
no
more
desire
really
for
short-term
cheap
power.
E
Instead,
I
think
you
in
a
sense
California
may
be
ahead
because
it's
been
through
the
wringer.
Already,
the
energy
crisis
burned
everyone's
nerve
endings.
On
the
subject
of
energy.
No
longer
is
anyone
talking
about
getting
cheaper
power
tomorrow.
What
they're
concerned
about
is
they
want
protection
against
increasing
volatility
in
the
energy
sector,
they're,
afraid,
they're,
afraid
of
the
price
of
natural
gas,
doubling
again
they're,
afraid
of
a
5%
increase,
they're
afraid
of
a
50%?
E
A
hundred
percent,
therefore,
it's
going
to
double
again
it'll,
be
like
Paris,
where
it's
ten
dollars
a
gallon
yeah,
which
it
is
right
now
in
Paris,
they're,
afraid
of
economic
devastation
and
it's
a
legitimate
fear,
so
number
one
community
choice
can
be
sold
and
should
be
sold
to
the
public
as
a
way
of
inserting
one
degree
of
separation
between
us
and
them.
Currently,
the
way
we
pay
for
energy
is
that
whatever
happens
to
the
cost
of
fuel
we
pay
for
it
doesn't
matter
who's
responsible.
The
customer
pays
under
community
choice.
E
You
have
the
opportunity
to
insert
a
supplier
who
risk
burying
entity
who
will
take
on
more
of
that
risk.
First,
second,
invest
in
technology
that
physically
reduces
your
use
of
fuels.
Renewable
energy
does
not
use
fuels
and
by
reducing
your
use
of
fuels.
In
your
day
to
day
electricity
use
ass
use,
you
reduce
your
exposure
to
the
commodity
price
of
those
fuels,
so
you
reduce
your
exposure
to
volatility
of
the
market.
Loosely
reduce
your
exposure
to
the
impacts
of
speculation
in
the
market.
E
It's
terrible,
it's
Chinese
level,
terrible
really
and
this
over
reliance
on
coal,
which
is
a
long
political
history
and
many
different
reasons
behind
it
and
very
high
stakes
for
employment
mistake
and
for
economic
prosperity
in
the
state.
That
means
that
when
carbon
tax
has
come,
they're
gonna
cause
economic
pain
and
you
have
the
opportunity
now
to
to
think
ahead
to
recognize.
What's
coming
because
it's
coming,
this
is
clearly
as
the
North
Pole
is
melting
and
to
prevent
economic
pain
in
the
future.
E
It's
an
opportunity
to
do
that,
and
it
is
the
level
of
concern
and
a
criterion
for
action
that
anybody
will
understand.
You
can
get
out
of
the
cheaper
power
tomorrow
box
and
put
forward
a
more
profound
reality
which
has
arrived
and
is
irreversible
and
and
and
put
forward
an
opportunity
to
do
something
about
it,
so
that
you're
ready
when
it
hits
and
you
don't
get
you
don't
get
devastated.
You
don't
feel
the
pain
because
you
thought
ahead.
I
think
that's
the
end
here.
The
next
step.
Oh
so.
H
E
See
see,
there's
one
more
slide
here.
You
know,
you've
had
the
law
since
1999
no
Peck
and
the
North
I
just
met
with
the
head
of
Noatak
in
Cleveland
area,
and
they
are
someone
to
look
at
because
they
have
now
seven
years
of
experience,
they've
been
very
successful,
they
have
not
focused
on
on
ruble.
Energy
have
not
done
into
issuing
bonds.
However,
Lea
Harrington
is
the
current
executive
director
of
no
pact
former
state
senator
who
assured,
through
the
the
CCA.
E
F
E
And
experience
with
the
law,
he
has
improved.
The
law
he's
been
effective
at
the
legislature
and
proved
recently
improving
the
law
in
the
governor
Strickland's
REE
regulation
legislation
to
preserve
CCA
in
Ohio
and
improve
it
slightly.
The
the
two-year
opt-out
requirement
was
one
problem
in
the
1999
law
that
was
improved
upon
him.
As
governor
Strickland's
bill,
it's
been
increased
to
a
three
year
andar
requirement.
This
son
is
a
minor
detail,
but
it
doesn't
impact
the
range
of
options
available
to
communities
in
Ohio.
E
Currently,
state
law
requires
that
every
three
years
consumers
be
offered
an
exit
from
the
program.
Now
no
other
state
has
this
exit
I
believe
it
was
inserted
by
the
utilities
and
what
it
does
is
it
limits
the
ability
of
communities
to
to
make
investments
in
long
term
infrastructure
and
they're
not
limited
right
as
utilities
they're,
making
20
and
30-year
investments
in
Coal
Fired
power
plants
every
day,
but
they're
trying
to
limit
the
ability
of
commuters
to
do
so.
What
it
means
is
you've
got
a
you
need
to
remove
that.
E
E
The
Ohio
consumer
council
happens
to
be
the
sister
of
the
senator,
who
sponsored
California's
committee
Joyce
law
Carroll,
named
in
the
senator
from
San
Francisco
she's,
very
supportive
of
community
choice
in
Ohio
for
for
opportunity,
cities
to
go
green,
and
she
will
also
support
this.
This
I
believe
in
conversations
with
her
this
this
minor
change
in
the
law
that
would
really
help
you
in
the
meantime.
One
of
the
the
lessons,
though,
that
I've
learned
that
energy
is
it's
in
such
a
big
game
that
you
have
your
sort
of
political.
E
If
those
of
you
want
to
go
ahead
with
this
pursue
this,
you
have
to
get
out
of
the
serial
political
environment.
You
think
first
change
the
law
that
implement
the
law
then
bill.
No
energy
is
all
about
parallel
processes.
Everything
takes
so
much
time.
If
you
want
to
do
something,
you
do
everything
simultaneously
and
so
I
would
urge
you
very
strongly
to
proceed
with
local
plans
for
implementation
of
your
local
communities.
Goals
open
up
those
plans
regionally
to
other
communities
in
this
county
and
in
this
region,
invite
other
communities
to
join.
E
You
make
the
basic
decisions
about
what
you
want
deal
with.
The
the
the
forests
now
and
the
trees
later
has
arrived
at
your.
This
is
what
we
did
in
this
in
San
Francisco's
arrive
at
your
your
basic
values.
What
you
think
you
want
to
achieve
like
the
51
percent
renewable
portfolio
standard.
This
is
something
that
just
grew
like
wildfire
in
California,
because
once
it
got
out
there
that
one
city
wanted
to
do
it
well.
E
Who
doesn't
want
51%
rain
power?
You
say:
okay,
we
want
51%
green
power,
we're
not
looking
for
cheaper
power,
basic
principle
for
surplus.
The
one
major
factor
constraints
applaud
if
you're
looking
for
power,
that's
the
same
price,
it's
very
different
from
asking
for
something:
that's
1%!
She
sounds
like
a
minor.
It's
not
it's
a
major
distinction,
because
energy
markets
are
so
non-competitive.
It's
like
selling
steel,
washers
wholesale
markets
for
steel,
washers
steel
washers
cost
what
they
cost.
Does
it
matter
if
they're
made
by
a
company
a
or
company
P,
they
cost
what
they
call
us.
E
Energy
is
very
similar
and
focusing
the
public
on
the
notion
of
a
meet
or
beat
service
that
you're.
Looking
for
a
a
greening
of
your
electricity,
your
energy
service
at
the
same
price,
you're,
paying
now
or
good,
but
not
requiring
better,
just
just
the
same
or
better.
That
is
an
enormous
I
would
encourage
you
to
think
about
that
that
focus
on
what
you
want
and
defining
just
the
macro
level
from
the
simplest
level
of
what
the
community
is
looking
for
and
then
proceed
with
implementation.
E
Colored
nuance
concept
for
what
it
is
you're
after
a
thing,
not
a
policy
you're
trying
to
produce
an
event,
a
public
works
project,
not
a
policy.
It's
a
far
more
compelling
to
the
public
to
policymakers,
to
regulators.
If
you
present
it
that
way,
and
that
way
you
put
your
first
foot
forward
on
the
big
picture
and
not
on
the
details.
In
the
meantime,
you
pursue
changing,
removing
the
barriers
to
what
you
want
to
do.
E
There
are
other
barriers-
and
you
know
you
you
can
or
meeting
with
with
with
MS,
mcdhh
and
strand
or
tomorrow,
to
talk
about
some
of
them.
There's
a
lot
of
complexity
in
electricity
markets
and
it
can
be
intimidating
because
there's
so
many
details
that
affect
how
much
something
costs
and
what
you
physically
do.
E
But
the
important
thing
is
to
define
what
you
put
the
the
big
picture
and
then
proceed
with
the
big
picture
by
then,
when
you
encounter
the
barrier,
you
have
moral
authority,
because
the
barrier
is
preventing
something
that
everyone
wants,
as
opposed
to
preventing
a
general
policy
framework
from
going
forward
and
then
in
the
short
term,
to
an
emphasis
on
energy
efficiency
and
demand
side
resources.
Critical.
E
Why
that
gives
the
paybacks
are
so
short,
you
can
easily
make
these
investments,
they
will
save
you
money
that
will
not
cost
extra,
and
so
it's
kind
of
you
can
go
forward
with
the
demand
side
approach.
You
can
have
confidence
that
they'll
succeed
more
or
less,
irrespective
of
your
political
program
of
what
laws
and
regulations
can
change
so
I
think
that's.
B
We
hope
you
have
time
for
a
few
classes
or
yes,
and
we
have
microphones
on
the
table
there,
three
of
them.
If
anyone
would
like
to
come
up
and
ask
a
question,
make
a
comment:
I'd
like
to
start
by
thanking
you've
given
much
information
and
lots
of
of
working
information,
ways
to
do
things
and
appreciate
it.
I'm
a
little
overwhelmed
at
this.
H
You
were
talking
about
solar
power
and
wind
power
versus
coal
Park,
but
no
mention
at
all
about
hydroelectric
flower.
I
know
that's
not
real
big
in
our
area
here,
but
if
you
look
at
the
country
as
a
whole,
how
important
is
that
and
also
in
Canada,
they
don't
hardly
use
the
word
electricity
up
there
when
they
refer
to
their
transmission
lines.
They're
called
the
hydro
I.
C
E
E
So
there
are,
you
know
it's
it's
somewhat
controversial,
but
hydro
is
not
classified
as
renewable,
and
so
we
don't
include
it
as
a
real
breeze,
large
hydro,
this
renewable
resource,
the
hydro,
also
causes
significant
mercury
contamination.
Fish
mercury
is
another
major
problem.
The
mental
retardation
children
in
the
United
States
is
shocking
and
the
the
toxic
level
of
mercury,
toxicity
and
us
rivers
virtuous
Vick
witness,
and
so
this
is
somewhat
of
a
sensitive
issue.
E
Around
hydro
I
believe
strongly
in
small
hydro
and
opportunities
for
for
small
hydro,
very
significant,
a
lot
of
rivers
here
and
in
a
state.
It
may
be
that
there
are
I'm
a
firm
believer
in
focusing
on
local
renewable
resources
and
not
sort
of
generically
to
say
it
has
to
be
wind
and
solar,
because
that's
what
the
market
says
so
I
know
and
I've
never
I.
E
It
actually
releases
significant
greenhouse
gases
when
you
build
dams
and
so
from
a
carbon
perspective,
it's
a
somewhat
limited
opportunity
and
with
some
negative
side
effects,
but
I
certainly
wouldn't
want
to
contest
the
potential
importance
of
of
hydro
in
the
state.
I
just
couldn't
comment
on,
because
I
haven't
studied
it.
H
E
Is
they
also
have
that
more
oil
than
Saudi
Arabia,
so
they've
part
of
the
reason
their
economy
is
booming,
while
ours
goes
in
the
tank,
because
they've
got
all
that
hydro
and
all
that
oil,
but
but
I
don't
know
I
just
don't
know
what
the
resources,
perhaps
others
in
the
room
might
know
yeah.
This
is
a
local
resource,
so
there
may
be
activists
out
there
that
are
aware
of
what
there
is.
What
I
have
not
said.
You.
F
E
Did
not
I
not
work
for
no
pack,
so
it
might
Maine
Ohio.
My
role
is
limited
to
helping
draft
the
law
that
authorizes
commute
or
segregation.
That's
it.
If
no
pack
takes
hydropower
I've
not
heard
about
it.
I
was
just
up
at
Niagara,
because
I'm
up
to
Ontario
and
pass
through
Niagara,
the
the
mercury
comes
from
the
soil.
E
I
With
very
much
of
what
you
say,
however,
there
is,
there
is
a
very
fundamental
problem,
and
that
is
that
we
get
so
much
energy
from
the
use
of
fossil
fuels.
Today
that
it's
extremely
difficult
to
visualize
any
sustainable
source,
we
could
come
close
to
matching
the
amount
of
energy
that
comes
from
fossil
fuels
and,
as
we
all
know,
the
fossil
fuel
use
and
has
got
to
go
down
because
there
is
less
of
it
available
low
cost
and
thirsty
water.
Here.
What
solutions
I
have
written
out.
C
I
Is
a
grossly
underutilized
source
which
is
biomass,
and
when
you
look
at
this
theory
of
the
possibility
of
converting
biomass
into
methane
or
let
us
call
wood,
gas
and
driving
vehicles
with
it,
you
can
visualize
a
sustainable
community
on
a
very
much
lower
level
of
energy.
I
must
say
you
very
much
lower
level
of
energy,
which
will
in
fact
be
sustainable
for
all
of
us
and
dump
a
period
of
time.
E
I,
you
know:
I
I
agree
with
the
notion
that
that
you
can't
really
replace
the
fossil
fuel
system
with
green
power.
Supply
I
I,
try
to
make
the
same
same
statement
and
perhaps
I
didn't
make
it
well
enough.
The
reason
we
have
that
really
odd
logo
for
our
company
is
it's
an
effort
to
demonstrate
a
notion
which
is
replacing
a
a
whole.
E
Symmetrical
transcendent
energy
supply
system
that
always
works.
It's
fully
dispatchable,
it
works
when
you,
you
always
have
energy,
you
always
have
supply
with
a
system
based
on
intermittency
and
in
which
the
demand-side
technology
is
used
to
manage
loads
in
relation
to
that,
intermittency
is
to
replace
a
transcendent
system,
that's
always
on
with
an
intermittent
system
in
which
the
load
is
managed
in
relation
to
the
intermittency.
So
it's
rather
than
this
whole
single
system.
Many
complex
attenuating
systems
that
replace
it,
but
I
would
agree
that
that
one
of
the
the
factors
that's
poison.
E
E
There's
no
single
solution,
but
rather
so
the
challenge
is
no
longer
technological.
It
is
political
because
only
a
government
can
do
that.
A
market
can't
do
that,
and
so
I
partly
agree
with
what
you're
saying-
and
I
certainly
would
be
interested
in
learning
more
about
biomass
and
I'd
like
photos,
papers
and.
I
G
There
was
going
to
be
my
question:
do
you
have
any
information
on
the
economics
of
doing
that?
A
municipal
level,
the
pumped
hydro
storage,
but
also
want
to
comment
that
what
you're
just
talking
about
was
the
Magic
Bullet
approach
to
energy
and
petroleum
was
the
Magic
Bullet
and
the
closest
thing
we
have
to
a
Magic
Bullet.
Now
is
the
conservation
or,
as
you
put
it,
the
supply
or
demand
size
technology.
E
E
A
silver
bullet
every
one,
every
technology
category
is
limited
for
various
reasons,
and
it's
the
ability
to
integrate.
That
is
the
real
opportunity,
and
so
these
devices,
in
the
emphasis
for
us
as
a
company,
is
not
on
the
technology.
We
evaluate
them
for
how
well
they
can
be
integrate
with
other
technologies,
but
the
key
is:
can
you
set
the
fancy
vehicle?
E
Can
you
provide
the
financing
vehicle
to
an
entity
that
does
not
own
the
transmission
infrastructure
critical,
because
if
it
does,
even
though
it
has
the
vehicle,
it
won't
implement
the
vehicle
and
so
to
have
a
sort
of
a
we
call,
a
public
design
entity
that
has
the
is
in
it
is
in
a
strategic
position
to
implement,
be
fully,
has
the
authority
to
to
finance
and
has
the
authority
to
control
revenue.
If
you
can
establish
that
entity,
then
you've
established
an
agency
that
has
it
has
its
hands-free
to
actually
try
to
achieve
carbon
reductions.
D
Okay,
as
you
might
imagine
more
than
one
question
for
those
who
don't
know
me,
my
name's
Gary
Hauser,
on
the
co-founder
of
while
university,
eco-house
project
hundred
mountains
and
the
first
question
I'd
like
to
start
out
with
this.
Is
that
very
point
that
we
have
at
the
local
economy
that
is
very
much
dominated
by
the
presence
of
a
very
large
State
University
Ohio
University.
A
D
It
seems
to
me
it
would
be
very
a
key
component
of
putting
together
a
successful
and
community
choice.
Aggregation
plan
in
Athens
would
be
to
find
some
way,
the
city
of
Athens
to
really
work
out
a
strong
cooperative
relationship
with
the
university
I'm
wondering
if
you
could
speak
about
your
experience
in
San
Francisco
and
drawing
in
the
university
campuses
in
the
same
plan
to
work
together
with
the
city
of
San
Francisco.
D
The
second
question
is
a
lot
of
people
talk
about
energy
efficiency
as
being
what's
called
the
low-hanging
fruit,
and
could
you
also
go
into
more
particulars
on
how
the
CCA
in
San
Francisco
is
going
to
provide
leadership
to
moving
the
city's
consumption
of
electricity
downward
through
implementing
energy
efficiency
programs?
Third
question:
you
and
I
know
you.
You
could
probably
go
through
these
know
fairly
rapidly,
but
now
the
third
one
is.
Could
you
just
lead
us
like
to
make
this
process
more
tangible
to
us
here
in
Athens?
D
E
The
university
question:
yes,
we
have
a
quarter
of
the
university
large
energy
and
large
energy
users
are
very
important
aggregations,
not
only
because
of
their
volume
but
because
of
their
the
load
of
the
load
pattern.
There
is
a
usage
pattern:
the
load
profile
of
a
community
too
Berman's
the
cost
of
its
of
his
power.
So
if
you
have
only
daytime
use,
no
nighttime
use
are
very
little.
E
That's
a
problem,
and
vice
versa
is
a
problem,
the
more
balanced
you
are,
the
form,
in
other
words,
that
if
you
24-hour
cycle
and
your
energy
is
in
a
straight
line-
that's
that's
ideal.
Your
energy
use
in
the
daytime
is
the
same
as
their
energy
use.
In
the
night
time
that
then
your
pricier
powers
be
the
lowest,
and
so
the
need
to
have
nighttime
energy
users
and
daytime
energy
users
combined
into
the
aggravation
will
improve
your
economics
and
universities
come
into
play
there.
E
You
also
have
an
intermittent
intermittency
issues
around
the
fact
that
students
leave
in
the
summertime,
and
so
your
loads
will
drop
when
they're
gone.
That's
an
issue,
so
it's
a
sort
of
a
planning
issue
and
there's
a
need
to
try
to
mitigate
the
impacts
of
that
volatility
that
load
volatility
during
the
summertime
when
energy
cost
well
for
you,
they
probably
drop
I,
would
imagine
because
it's
so
cold
in
the
winter
here,
but
again.
E
Figure
out
it
strategize
around
that
issue
plan
it's
very
important.
Then
we've
made
great
efforts
to
court.
All
the
large
customers
in
San
Francisco
in
the
city,
50
customers
consume
over
half
of
power
in
the
city.
Somebody's
talking
about
cities
is
that
commercial,
industrial
businesses
use
a
lot
more
energy
than
residents
do,
and
so
their
participation
is.
E
San
Francisco
will
roll
a
7
megawatts
of
efficiency
measures
and
conservation
measures
within
the
initial
360
megawatt
rollout
of
photovoltaics
and
wind
and
other
distributed
generation.
So
it
is
around
one
third
of
what
will
be
installed
now,
as
my
company
is
sort
of
that
was
our
first
portfolio
design
in
San,
Francisco,
we've
moved
on
to
other
cities.
E
Currently,
the
state
of
the
art
in
the
United
States,
this
NYSERDA
in
New
York,
is
the
most
successful
energy
efficiency
program.
Statewide
and
I
think
they've
achieved
a
2%
per
year,
load
reductions
from
growth
from
their
their
their
programs
in
California.
The
best
and
the
brightest
are
doing
0.7%
per
year.
That's
PG&E
and
they
probably
spend
a
great
deal
of
money
to
do
that.
E
Does
it
burn
most
of
the
money
deliberately
we're
driving
them
up
to
3%
per
year,
and
we
believe
that
that
can
be
achieved
through
this
roll
out
approach,
where
you're
not
just
marketing
products
to
the
to
the
residents
and
businesses
but
you're,
treating
it
as
infrastructure,
roll
out
and
you're
financing.
So
we're.
If
you
go
for
a
3%
per
year,
it
really
changes
the
the
10
year
and
the
20
load
in
the
community.
It
has
enormous
benefits
to
the
cost
of
power.
E
D
E
Community
choice:
the
basic
idea
is
that
you
proceed
from
the
informal
to
the
formal
you
do
nothing
that
exposes
your
jurisdiction
to
any
risk
or
commitment
until
the
very
end
of
the
process.
So
you
start
out
very
informally
talking
about
what
you,
what
you
resolve
to
do,
and
so
they're.
The
first
first
thing
to
resolve
about
is
that
you
want
to
pursue
it.
So
a
resolution
saying
that
you
want
to
pursue
community
choice,
aggregation
and
that.
E
Are
that
your
interest
is
encourage
you
to
do
so?
Your
interest
is
not
in
an
obtaining
a
discount
in
your
energy
costs,
but
it's
stabilizing
your
energy
cost.
The
principle
of
meter
beat
is
I.
Think
it's
very
useful.
You
basically
frame
the
policy
for
the
public,
so
you
give
them
something
to
understand
about
what
you're
up
to
and
the
basic
contours
of
a
program
generally
are
how
green
do
you
want
to
be?
How
much
risk
do
you
want
to
take,
and
what
do
you
want
to
do
with
rates?
E
And
so
our
view
is
the
best
answer
to
those
questions.
Are
rates
stay
the
same
or
or
better,
but
they
can
be
the
same
that
you
want
to
go
set
some
impressive
standard
of
greenness
over
a
10
percent
I
mean
over
a
10
year
time,
I.
Think
ten,
three
years
is
me
little.
You
go
to
20
years,
you're
getting
the
wall
island
and
it's
politically
responsible,
because
most
elected
officials
will
not
be
here
in
20
years
and
the
vs.
10
years.
Some
of
you
might
be
yeah.
C
E
C
E
To
the
general
fund
that
don't
expose
the
general
fund
that
don't
expose
taxpayers,
they
limit
you
to
a
20-year
horizon
and
they
limit
how
green
you
can
go.
Capital
bonds
are
the
next
level
of
risk.
They
involve
some
general
fund
exposure,
but
they
enable
you
to
go
to
a
30-year
time
frame
and
they
allow
you
to
go
into
the
sort
of
66
percent
land.
E
As
your
financing
that
far
forward
you're
capturing
that
much
revenue,
you
can
find
us
that
much
more
infrastructure
within
a
single
contract
and
the
whole
issue
is
what
can
you
do
in
one
agreement,
because
what
you
really
do
today
will
be
in
that
one
agreement.
Everything
else
will
be
a
goal
that
the
next
City
Council
may
or
may
not
implement,
and
so
the
question
is:
how
far
do
you
want
to
go
within
one
agreement
and
frame
it
that
way?
And
so
the
resolution
is
non-binding,
but
it
clarifies
the
discussion
going
forward.
E
E
What
happens
in
a
worst-case
scenario,
so
that's
sort
of
the
contour
getting
contour
the
program
in
a
resolution
form
allows
you
then,
to
define
the
thing
go
forward.
You
can
have
form
you
also.
The
resolution
can
start
the
process
of
inviting
neighboring
jurisdictions
to
join
in,
which
is
a
very
important
thing,
not
to
wait
for
them
to
join.
You
don't
go
ahead.
E
It's
very
important
to
just
go
ahead
unilaterally,
but
to
invite
other
jurisdictions
to
join
the
cake,
like
contact
was
started
by
by
one
town
and
it
took
them
a
long
time
to
get
it
passed,
but
once
they
passed,
it
was
a
couple
of
months
before
six
other
towns
and
joined
them.
Being
the
leader
helps
enormous
Lee
gives
people
the
opportunity
to
themselves
choose
what
you're
standing
for
or
not
and
I've,
been
shocked
by
how
responsive
towns
are,
after.
E
E
Now
in
their
case
they
were
just
going
for
a
discount,
so
it
wasn't
terribly
inspiring,
but
you
can
put
it
forward.
Then
you
want
a
place.
Ultimately,
if
you
want
to
want
to
place
a
resolution
on
the
ballot
for
the
voters,
because
you
must
understand
well
to
approve
this
program,
and
so
in
that
process
you
begin
to
negotiate
with
suppliers
and
ultimately,
you
adopted
ordinance
to
to
to
implement
the
program,
and
you
will
probably
have
to
study
the
local
laws
here,
but
you
probably
will
adopt
an
ordinance
addition.
E
Well,
yes,
so
there
you
guys,
we
go
from
resolution
to
referendum,
to
ordinance
to
to
German
ordinance
to
bond
and
then
you're
at
that
point,
you're
actually
locked
in
you
are.
You
know
there
is
a
degree
of
accountability,
but
you
wait
until
you.
You
have
you've
gotten
public
support
to
go
to
market
and
you
negotiate
with
suppliers
to
see
who
will
who's
willing
to
do
what
for
you
and
once
the
agreements
are
submitted,
then
you
have
your
real
political
decision.
Are
we
going
to
do
this
or
not?
C
J
E
Oh,
it's
exciting
I
love
to
to
see
this.
It
sounds
like
a
politician
speech.
I'm
not
running
for
office.
I
mean
it.
You
know
the
people
really
underestimate
how
powerful
even
50
people
that
want
to
do
something
is
in
politics,
it's
extremely
powerful,
and
so
it's
great
to
see
you
because
obviously
there's
there's
a
lot
of
interest
in
this
community
to
do
something
and
you
might
actually
do
it.
You
know
I
think
so,
like.
J
How
can
we
design
this
this
project
in
a
way
to
make
it
more
decentralized
and
in
a
way
that
allows
our
companies
and
my
manufacturers
to
be
involved
in
the
deployment
and
I
and
I?
Think
that
you
know,
as
most
people
probably
know,
we
don't
have
good
wind
resources
here
in
Southeast
Ohio.
We
don't
have.
C
J
Is
not
a
maybe
as
good
as
carrying
the
canoes
out,
but
it's
not
adding
an
addition.
Additional
dams
we're
mostly
retrofitting,
but
we
are
somewhat
limited
in
our
choices
and
solar
is
clearly
one
of
the
options
that
is
available
and
deployable
right
now.
Solar
is
here:
it
works.
It's
long,
lasting
it's,
it's
really
reliable.
E
Whether
several
sides
of
that
question,
one
is
the
sort
of
choice
of
technology
and
I
agree
if
you
have
to
choose
which
it
got,
and
so
if
you've
got
solar
is
what
you've
gotten
biomass
is
what
you've
got
then
just
solar
and
biomass
the
demand
side.
Everyone's
got
demand
in
such
demand.
Side
technology
works
everywhere.
E
It
should
be
a
big
piece
of
the
action
as
far
as
the
local
hiring
I
have
seen
some
jurisdictions
condition
their
contracts
to
award
points
to
suppliers
that
use
local
installers
contractors
to
do
the
work
I've
seen
other
communities
require
suppliers
to
do
so.
There
are
often
state
laws
that
constrain
the
ability
of
cities.
To
do
that.
So
it
depends
on
your
legal
constraints
to
proceed.
What
it's,
what
it's
able
to
do
legally?
J
J
D
C
E
One
of
the
key
factors
here
in
making
this
approach
work
is
that
you,
you,
you
actually
do
need
a
fairly
significant
financial
entity
to
underwrite
your
agreements.
So
if
you
want
a
guarantee
to
residents
and
businesses
that
their
rates
will
will
be,
will
meet
or
beat
the
existing
rates,
then
you've
got
to
have
one
entity,
that's
legally
liable
for
both
the
commodity
service
delivery
and
the
rollout.
E
Otherwise,
if
you
basically
have
a
lawsuit
nightmare
on
your
hands
and
from
a
risk
perspective,
this
is
one
of
the
issues
that
come
up.
When
you
try
to
implement
programs
utility
would
come
in
and
say
this
is
gonna
bankrupt,
your
general
fund.
If
this
worst-case
scenario
occurs,
you
have
a
disaster.
You
have
twenty
lawsuits,
it's
very
important.
We
call
the
single
lawsuit
strategy,
it's
very
important
that
you
structure
your
deals.
So
if
things
go
badly,
there's
one
entity
you're
going
to
sue
and
in
fact
it's
better
to
arrange
it.
E
You
don't
want
to
have
a
situation
where
you've
broken
up
the
contract
into
25
pieces
and
the
photovoltaics
component
are
working
for
some
staff
person
in
the
city
and
the
commodity
service
guys
is
under
a
totally
different
contract,
because
if
your
solar
guy
doesn't
perform
and
the
commodity
provided
then
has
to
go
to
wholesale
markets
to
cover
the
power,
that's
not
being
generated
because
he's
not
under
schedule
whose
fault
is
it?
And
it's
all
got
to
be
bundled
into
one
black
box
to
use
in
the
term
of
Industry
and
antrax.
E
J
E
J
B
At
this
point,
I'd
like
to
say
we
could
continue
the
conversation,
perhaps
on
a
Marine
Division
joining
the
speeding.
That's
all
right
with
everyone.
I
say
some
people
are
trying
to
move
out
so
we'll
this
is
one-on-one
conversation
in
many
to
be
held
in
the
future,
I'm
sure,
once
a
lot
respect
and
we'll
keep
you
in
mind.
Thank
you.